Ask not what your country can do for you... by 6ixStringJack

America loves a winner!

We must , and I CANNOT stress enough on this word, MUST reverse the idiotic policy of ethanol subsidies for corn growers to convert food into fuel. It's the wrong crop at the wrong time for all the wrong reasons.

Corn ethanol is inefficient to produce , its costly to ship and sends virtually all other food prices through the roof, from ALL dairy, beef, poultry products to cereals and a host of others , which growers forgo putting in the ground so they can make a windfall on Gov't subsidized corn.

Natural Gas powered autos ( via Compressed Natural Gas ) are by far the most efficient, clean running and the energy source is renewable and abundant.

Write your Congressional Reps and your Senators and DEMAND we put and end to Corn Ethanol subsidies. Tell them you want t loosen the restrictions on Oil companies to let them explore and drill for new natural gas/ oil sources.

And don't wait, do it TODAY.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, May 31, 2008 5:06 AM

I agree with that sentiment completey Rap, and though not directly related to any point I was trying to make when I wrote it, that kind of thought is really what I'm trying to say. How can we force our ideals on the world when we are burning food to get us to work when some of the countries we are meddling with have people starving to death?

I'm not saying we should be giving any food away, given that I don't belive in any meddling, good or bad, in foreign affairs.... but knowing that the world is a stage today it really looks bad.

Let alone the prices we're paying for it, through the cost of consumables. Write your congressmen indeed.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, May 31, 2008 5:55 AM

America loves a winner!

Per your start of your thread, where you mention high food prices, I'm telling you a great part of this is because of the brainless corn for ethanol policy that so many ( GOP and DNC ) are quick to cling to, because it buys votes and keeps power in D.C. for themselves.

It doesn't need to be this way! You point out how dire the situation is, or will be, and I'm not convinced things are 'that bad', or that we simply have to sit here and take it.

They wanted a monster comprehensive immigration bill , and we stood up and said NO! Secure the border first. We were called racist, xenophobes, and all manner of nasty things, but all we want is law and order when it comes to who enters our country. Well, the suits in D.C. heard us, and backed down. For a while. Now they're trying it again, piece by piece. We cannot allow them to win this battle. It's that spirit, in that line of thought, that I say we must bring to the table on our energy issues, because the wrong policy is going to affect EVERYTHING in our lives. And food prices from the ethanol craze is just one example.

i don't view this as a 'right ' or 'left ' issue, but mainly as an AMERICAN issue. If we lead the way w/ a SANE energy policy, and a fair , sensible immigration reform, we can show the world how freedom works. If we just sit on our asses, watch Reality T.V. and stay dumb to what's happening, then we just might be screwed after all.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, May 31, 2008 5:59 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Don't get me wrong, I needed that $600 as much as anyone, but certainly I am not the only one who sees the idiocy of giving us back our own money only to see the national debt increase.

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Saturday, May 31, 2008 8:47 AM

SIMONWHO

It's also a lousy idea environmentally - the actual rate you get back for all the fuel poured in is damn small and so you end up with a fuel that is more costly and only marginally better for the environment than regular petrol. The subsidies would be far better placed on sane renewable resources like wind farm or solar panel farms.

I feel sorry for Americans becaue you've got some really tough financial times ahead - you've had a long, long period of good economic times and what do you have to show for it? A $9,500,000,000,000 national debt, extensive financial commitments abroad and at home that do not solve keystone issues like healthcare or social security and declining public services. We're in exactly the same boat in the UK for very similar reasons.

Chrisisall is right to say that spending it the rebate checks should help the economy but it would help even more if you bought only American made and owned products. I would ask that you buy British made goods but I won't because I don't hate you guys. The majority of our remaining consumer goods industry produces over-priced mediocrities with the exception of products marked BBC, JCB or RSC.

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Saturday, May 31, 2008 1:51 PM

REAVERMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Don't get me wrong, I needed that $600 as much as anyone, but certainly I am not the only one who sees the idiocy of giving us back our own money only to see the national debt increase.

Nope, you certainly aren't. The government can't afford to be giving out even these rather pathetic handouts. The Shrub says it'll "help people keep their homes". Riiiiight. 'Cause $600 will definitely cover the mortgage.

If times weren't quite so tough, I could see this having a positive impact on the economy. As it stands, this was just money down the drain. Too much for the government to really afford to hand out, too little to make a difference. Typical shortsighted idiocy. But then, what else do you expect from Washington?

----------------------------
"What is sleep, after all, but the process by which we dump all our insanity into a deep subconscious pit, so we can come to the breakfast table each morning ready to eat cereal, instead of the neighbor's children?"

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Sunday, June 1, 2008 3:48 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Is it wrong that I'm actually with y'all on this one?

The corn subsidy - I don't have a problem with trying to find a cheaper/better alternative to petroleum fuels, and it will be a while before we figure out how to get more energy out of corn than we put in, but we seem to be trying to force progress and technology through legislation. If we require it by law, then the process will magically become cost-effective.

California tried the same kind of stunt, way back in the bad old days of CARB, when they wrote laws that said that by this-and-such date, all cars sold in the state would be zero-emissions vehicles. That date was forever being moved back, because it simply wasn't feasible to do it.

The *IDEA* of corn ethanol isn't such a horrible one - except that, as 'Rap notes, you start using corn to drive vehicles instead of as food, and it drives up the price of corn, which cascades into price hikes for nearly everything.

My other gripe with ethanol is that it doesn't save fuel; quite the opposite. Last hard numbers I saw show that when you add it all up, after planting, irrigation, harvesting, and refining, it takes no less than 1.6 gallons of gasoline and/or diesel to get one gallon of corn ethanol out of the spigot. So, in the short term, instead of using LESS gas, we use 60% MORE gas to get away from gas! And Congress and the White House want to expand this usage and increase it exponentially. This reminds me again of California, where they wanted to mandate affordable electric cars into existence at the same time they were having rolling blackouts and power shortages.

Granted, those power shortages were more a result of price speculation (Enron) than actual lack of capacity, but it pointed out how fragile the infrastructure is.

There's certainly more to this issue, but I'm just trying to point out a couple small things that have me doubtful that corn ethanol is our salvation from Big Bag Oil.

Anyhoo, long rant over. I'll be using my "stimulus" money like most other Americans - to further prop up the Chinese economy by buying cheap crap I don't need, but definitely want. My purchase will be a PlayStation3 and a handful of games. :)

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Sunday, June 1, 2008 3:52 AM

... Or possibly a nice Eastern-bloc rifle... Romanian Dragunov knock-off, anyone? Only $699, and good for reaching out and touching someone 1200 yards away...

"Honest, officer - he looked like a terrorist. I think his name was Al... Al Qaeda or something like that. I had to shoot him way over there so I didn't have to shoot him over here, since that would've messed up my new rug." :)

For once, I think my wife would rather I bought the PS3!

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Sunday, June 1, 2008 4:25 AM

America loves a winner!

The officer would probably be impressed if it were a head shot from 1200 yrds away.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, June 1, 2008 5:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The officer would probably be impressed if it were a head shot from 1200 yrds away.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Yeah... I don't think the rifle is quite THAT good - nor am I, but even a shoulder or arm hit at that range is going to make someone think twice about advancing...

Not that I have any need for that kind of range. I'm pretty sure even this administration would have a li'l problem with me "preemptively" sniping ne'er-do-wells before they're even on my property, or within 1000 yards of it. :)

Mostly, I just want it because I have a feeling that, like it or not, there's going to be another useless ban going into effect sooner rather than later. Think of it as an investment. An investment that you can take to the range and have some fun with. Historically, guns make a great investment. If it's a decent gun at all, it will never be worth less than you paid, and often it will be worth far more.

I know the AK47 series have taken a hit recently, though. Once the Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) was allowed to expire, the price of semi-auto AKs went from around $1500 each to around $550 each. BUT, if and when another ban is enacted, those prices will rebound again.

Sorry for the threadjack, Jack. Now let's get back to how and why we should spend that cashy-money!

I'd love to support our country and economy by buying something useful and American-made, but the problem is, we don't seem to actually make anything here anymore - we make money, but only by trading paper around. We don't make cars - not ones that I'd want or can afford, anyhow (Hummer H2, anyone? They're priced to move!). We make houses, but $600 isn't really going to do much to get me into a new home, and if that's all it took to get into such a home, I'm sure the rates would go through the roof within a couple years, and then I'd be one of the schlubs in the mortgage mess, looking for some kind of bailout.

Sooooo... what can you buy for $600 that's really going to help the economy here at home?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Sunday, June 1, 2008 6:24 AM

America loves a winner!

I've never owned a gun. My father had a .22 bolt action rifle, but I never even shot it. We owned a couple of bb/ pellet rifles, and the most damage I did was take out a bird, minding its own business. Seemed like a stupid thing to do afterwards. Guns, huntin' , fishin', and trucks never fascinated me all that much. Though I do drive a pick up today.... I can see the practical use, I suppose, if I was out in the country, but being a product of the 'burbs....meh. I'll play Halo3 and various war games all day , if you let me, but that's never translated to me wanting to even own a gun.

I have fired off some handguns, a .45 and .33, at a range, to see the difference. That was years ago.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, June 1, 2008 7:50 AM

Quote:
...but being a product of the 'burbs....meh.

I hear ya, and I get that. Environment doubtless has much to do with it. Being that I'm probably one of the leftiest of liberals around these parts, I'm sure it comes as some surprise to a few filk that I also love my guns. What can I say?

I'm the product of a military family, growing up on bases all over the world (Germany, Taiwan, California, Texas, Maryland, etc.), so I grew up around guns and lots of armed people. My dad used to pay us to clean his guns for him, since he had to have them clean for inspection, and he had so many it was actually a lot of work for him. So we grew up comfortable around guns. I learned to shoot early, on the good old 1911 .45ACP service sidearm. It always seemed like such a big gun back then, but I was only about 8 years old, so I'm sure it WAS a big gun. I still have a soft spot for them.

Never really did any hunting, though, except for birds, rats, and squirrels to feed to our snakes (Boa Constrictors and Pythons, and a couple Western Diamondback rattlesnakes until my mom found out about them!). Never felt a strong desire to kill anything, but wouldn't think twice about shooting a rat to feed to a snake.

Mostly, going shooting is just a way to relax and blow off steam, and an appreciation of fine machinery and exacting tolerances, plus a way to improve concentration and accuracy, and calm my nerves. Trust me, you're not going to hit a target at 200 yards on open sights if your hands aren't steady, and mine aren't always, so shooting is a way to really concentrate and settle down any yips or jitters I might have.

Mike

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Sunday, June 1, 2008 8:33 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I damn near fell off my chair when I read these words

Quote:
We must , and I CANNOT stress enough on this word, MUST reverse the idiotic policy of ethanol subsidies for corn growers to convert food into fuel. It's the wrong crop at the wrong time for all the wrong reasons.

AMEN BROTHER! And not just corn but soy, palm oil and palm kernel oil. All of these food-grade crops in various nations are being diverted to biofuel when they SHOULD be used for what they do best: Feed people. If you really want biofuel, the best alternatives are waste grease (biodiesel) and bio-waste (switch grass, wood chips, corn stalks, etc can be enzymatically broken down to sugar and fermented to ethanol)

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, June 1, 2008 9:16 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I learned to shoot early, on the good old 1911 .45ACP service sidearm. It always seemed like such a big gun back then, but I was only about 8 years old, so I'm sure it WAS a big gun. I still have a soft spot for them.

I have owned a lot of different handguns through the years and always thought 1911s were kind of primitive(being single action only). That was until I picked one up to look at it at a gun shop one day. It was love at first grip, I have never felt a gun that feels so good in my hand and feels perfectly balanced too. I immediately sold all of my other hand guns and bought a Kimber 1911. I recently bought a compact version for concealed carry. No other handgun will do for me now. The only thing that still feels strange to me is carrying a gun cocked and locked, but I know it's just a mental issue that all go through when going from a double action gun to single action only.

As far as my rebate check goes, I'll be buying my wife a Sig Sauer P239. I've been trying to get her to go to the range with me for a while and finally got her to pick out a gun. Sig Sauer is owned by a foreign company but I believe most of their handguns are manufactured in New hampshire.

I know it seems like we don't make anything in the US anymore because most electronic products are made overseas, but in reality we are still the largest manufacturing nation in the world and our manufacturing sector alone is larger than the entire Chinese economy.

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Sunday, June 1, 2008 11:43 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
We must , and I CANNOT stress enough on this word, MUST reverse the idiotic policy of ethanol subsidies for corn growers to convert food into fuel. It's the wrong crop at the wrong time for all the wrong reasons.

Corn ethanol is inefficient to produce , its costly to ship and sends virtually all other food prices through the roof, from ALL dairy, beef, poultry products to cereals and a host of others , which growers forgo putting in the ground so they can make a windfall on Gov't subsidized corn.

Natural Gas powered autos ( via Compressed Natural Gas ) are by far the most efficient, clean running and the energy source is renewable and abundant.

Write your Congressional Reps and your Senators and DEMAND we put and end to Corn Ethanol subsidies. Tell them you want t loosen the restrictions on Oil companies to let them explore and drill for new natural gas/ oil sources.

And don't wait, do it TODAY.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Might be better to request your Governor and State legislature to apply for gasahol exemption. The EPA has the legal authority to exempt a State from these rules. Texas has already done it, requested by Perry.

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Monday, June 2, 2008 3:34 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Jack, I find your post heartfelt but confused.

Given today's situation in the world...

WHAT situation? There are a lot of situations, some more dire than others. Personally, I think our bggest problem is the ecological nightmare that were about to enter. But I guess thats another story.

We're all in for a rough ride the next 10 or so years. ... {but} I can't say I can think of a country I would rather live in, even given all of my anti Government positions. The truth is now, we're all in the same fucking boat. Rich or poor, our lives are going to change.

If you mean economically... No. We're not
in the same boat. There are some who will profit from the coming disaster. The top 0.001% control what happens to the rest of us. THOSE people aren't going to suffer.

As much as you don't want to hear it (poor people), the rich people can't afford to fix the inboard motors on their yachts when their poor stock market choices buried them.

Why not? They invested in China!

If you have positive net worth then do your duty as an American and spend that check on something nice that you've been denying yourself. You were going to lose money to inflation this year, the likes of which many of us fresh in the market have never seen before anyhow. Buy that leather couch you've been denying yourself. To do so is your vote of confidence in the American Dollar, and our future as a global superpower, and proof that we who are in the position to show our strength have a duty now to show the world that we aren't afraid and that we are proud and we are steadfast in our solidarity as brothers and sisters of the greatest civilization that Mankind has ever known.....

BY BUYING STUFF????

I'm sorry, but... WHAT is our civilization based on again? Freedom? Or capitalism? You seem more interested in propping the latter than the former, although it's a little hard to tell.

I know plenty about how low a low can be. For whatever reason it be for you, whether it college debt, a bad business decision, health care debt, or just some bad financial decisions I totally understand where you're at now and what you're going through. My deepest sympaties are with you. Please, what I ask you today is to realize that we cannot require our superiors (Government) to act fiscally responsible if we are helplessly lost in debt ourselves.

You still don't get it, do you? Capitalism RUNS on debt. And that means debasement of currency. If money keeps getting sucked upwards, what are the poor going to buy with? Debt, inflation, and speculation were the major breakthroughs that have kept capitalism from imploding. The system is working exactly as it's supposed to YOUR plan would bung up the works.

Let us never waver in our eternal united struggle to preserve our Freedom in the face of those who stand opposed to it, and let us not ever forget the sacrifices that have been made which have provided us with the lifestyles we have grown accustomed to.

Hmmm.. freedom or capitalism... capitalism or freedom... Which to choose?

Jack, if I had a remedy for this nation it would be this: reduce unnecessary consumption. That big screen TV doesn't buy happiness and that SUV doesn't buy freedom.

Press our politicians to do what is right for the American people, not the moneyed few: raise the minimum wage so that people making it can actually live above the poverty level and enact universal healthcare. Eliminate pork barrel projects, stop pumping money into the fixer-upper that is Iraq, and ivest in energy independence. Only the government can solve it's debt problem.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, June 2, 2008 11:41 AM

Quote:
That big screen TV doesn't buy happiness...

Speak for yourself! :)

Seriously, have you watched Serenity on a 42-inch plasma with surround sound? If that ain't happiness, I don't know what is...

Mike

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Monday, June 2, 2008 2:58 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
.....I have owned a lot of different handguns through the years and always thought 1911s were kind of primitive(being single action only).

The Colt .45 1911 isn't a single action it's an automatic.

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Monday, June 2, 2008 3:22 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
.....I have owned a lot of different handguns through the years and always thought 1911s were kind of primitive(being single action only).

The Colt .45 1911 isn't a single action it's an automatic.

Actually a 1911 is a single action semi-automatic pistol. Any gun that requires the hammer to be cocked before you pull the trigger is a single action. The fact that the 1911 automatically cocks the gun after the first round is fired doesn't change the fact that the first round can only be fired single action. With a double action gun the hammer is cocked and fired simply by pulling the trigger. Most modern semi-autos are double action guns. I know that many think of the difference between wild west six guns which were single action compared to modern revolvers many of which are double action, but semi-automatics can be single or double action also. There are also double action only guns available now that can only be fired with the heavier double action trigger pull. These guns use the blow back to chamber the next round but don't cock the hammer. They are very popular now but I can't see why.

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Monday, June 2, 2008 3:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
.....I have owned a lot of different handguns through the years and always thought 1911s were kind of primitive(being single action only).

The Colt .45 1911 isn't a single action it's an automatic.

Not according to Wikipedia...

Quote:

The M1911 is a single-action, semiautomatic handgun chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge. It was designed by John M. Browning, and was the standard-issue side arm for the United States armed forces from 1911 to 1985, and is still carried by some U.S. forces.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Monday, June 2, 2008 3:32 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Thank's for clearing that up.

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Monday, June 2, 2008 4:16 PM

Not a problem, sir. It helped me, too.

I had to go check around because I found that I wasn't sure myself, so I had to look up the 1911 and then look up the differences between double-action and single-action. I think I got it now...

For my own preference, I don't mind single-action at all. My Ruger apparently is double-action, but I don't really make use of that feature. That would mean I'd have to have it around with a round in the chamber, which I'm not comfortable with. And any situation I'm likely to encounter that's going to require me to need the gun, the simple sound of jacking a round into the chamber just might be all it takes to "de-escalate" the situation... :)

M

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Monday, June 2, 2008 4:19 PM

Ha - in the time it took me to locate the source and then try to find a better source than Wiki, Kirk had already cleared it up better! :)

Oh well - it still made me do some reading and learning. Can't be a bad thing, right?

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Monday, June 2, 2008 4:25 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Not at all.

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Monday, June 2, 2008 5:11 PM

Signy,

I can't respond to your breakdown of my post in a breakdown fashion, particularly the one line quotes, because the parts of it equal the whole.

Whether you want to believe the ecological issues facing us are greater than the economic issues is your perogative, and there is nothing that I can do to change that. But the fact is, if interest rates aren't increased to the point they were in the early 80's the American Dollar is done. Our debt is sick and gets sicker by the month. You can blame Bush for that, or be more mature about it and realize that when we have a Democrat in office the next 4 years that the debt will continue to get worse. I believe the threats of ecological disaster we face today is simply a side effect of our fiscal irresponsibility as a nation.

Sure, there are a small "0.001%" of people who are profiting off of the tough times, but I've already said that I think that CEOs of major corporations who have steered companies in the wrong way should spend the rest of their lives in prison and have their spoils distributed among the people who's lives they've negatively effected instead of getting their multi-million dollar parachutes. I don't consider them citizens of America, and I certainly don't consider them to be models of Americans or the American way. Minus them, we are all in the same boat financially.

I make less than 50,000 a year, and I'm thriving economically on a life of minimalism. The current situation is hindering my ability to save and killing my investments currently, but I'm not in the dire straits that people who make 3 or 4 times my salary are in now because they are not responsible with their money. If you make over 50k a year and you're even close to struggling I have no pity for you.

So yes.... if you are in a position like I am, take that money and buy American with it. If you are in debt, apply it to that debt.

Our system is based on capitalism and freedom. Those in power have bastardized capitalism in such a way that it hinders freedom today, but capitalism isn't the evil beast at its roots that you belive it to be. I happen to enjoy living in a country where I can make money if I'm smart enough and capable enough and ambitious enough, and I don't have to share it with people who are lazy and incompetent (although taxes basically make me do that).

Capitalism may make debt necessary, but for a century we did just fine with it and didn't have a national debt. Capitalism was around before the Federal Reserve was, but it may not survive the Federal Reserve and their incompetence.

I'm all for suggestions for a remedy. I certainly wasn't proposing an entire solution to our economic problems here. I'm just pointing out that if you're being hypocritical with your money (by buying more shit when you're already helplessly in debt) than you're part of the problem. If you can afford it because you're not a careless idiot with money, then you should use your rebate as a vote of confidence in the American currency. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think you've read too deeply into my statements here.

I have to disagree with the raising of the minimum wage though. When I've gone through a year where we got no bonus, no profit sharing, no "merit increase" (see: cost of living increase), and higher medical costs I really have no sympathy for somebody who can't find a better job than a minimum wage job. Minimum wage jobs are for teenagers and if you have one, it is because you've made bad choices and you have no one to blame but yourself. If you raise the minimum wage, in effect, you're lowering my salary.

And this year has done enough damage to my early retirement plans.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, June 3, 2008 3:15 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

6-ix

I don't even know where to begin.

Do you really think that capitalism is a meritocracy ? That people get paid according to what their work is worth ? If you really think so, why don't you do the simple expedient and compare your own ideas to your own experience ?

You say you have gone a whole year without a raise. In effect, you're getting paid less to do the same - or more. And IF capitalism is the meritocracy you say it is, it must mean that YOUR work is less valuable. Right ? So how did your work lose value over the last year ? Perhaps you sat on the shelf too long ? Perhaps you're past your expiration date ? Perhaps you've become lazy and incompetent ?

Please tell me, because your own ideas lead to this conclusion - since you are getting paid what your job is worth, you must be worth less than you were a year ago. What did you do wrong ?

You say you want to keep ALL the value of your work, right ? So what does that do to your employer's profit ? Because profit IS the difference between the value of your work and what your employers gets when HE sells YOUR work. But you're FOR profit because you're FOR capitalism, right ? So you must be FOR your employer taking his cut of your work.

Maybe you need to make up your mind, because you are saying two opposite things as if (strange to think) you don't actually understand them. You want to keep all the value of your labor, but you're fine with whatever profit your owner wants to make from you. I sense a conundrum in your mentation.

As to your specifics - Clinton - not the greatest democrat to be sure - actually balanced the budget and started to pay down the debt. In fact if you look here:
http://zfacts.com/p/318.html you'll see that the worst presidents have been Reagan, Bush the Elder and Bush the Younger. EVERY SINGLE democratic president since 1950 ended up with a lower debt at the end of their term than at the start. So, you can pretend it ain't reality, but then, you'd be like Rap.

"Minus them, we are all in the same boat financially." Weird, because these very same CEO's are running the place. Maybe that is the reason why there are in one financial boat and the rest of us are in the Titanic - 'ya think ?

"If you make over 50k a year and you're even close to struggling I have no pity for you." I take it you don't live and work in NYC (twice as expensive as a normal US city), Boston, San Diego, Los Angeles etc where 1/3 your take-home pay goes for a bedroom.
http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/toptens/expensivecities/expensivecities
full.html And I presume you don't have medical bills, or a family, or other serious cash-drains. All you married people, everyone with children, anyone who needs medical care LISTEN UP ! 6-ix has some advice for you on living cheaply ! (not)

"... if I'm smart enough and capable enough and ambitious enough, and I don't have to share it with people who are lazy and incompetent (although taxes basically make me do that)." Well, if you lose your job to the Chinese, please let me know how your lazy incompetent ass which obviously is what lost you your job will be helped out by the awful government --- OK ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, June 3, 2008 3:24 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

6ix- I have a hard time responding to your posts in anything other than piecemeal quotes because almost every single sentence in your post has an assumption behind it that I think is mistaken. I’ll do my best to reply holistically but bear with me because it may not seem at first like I’m replying, but I am.

I think capitalism is not what you envision. You see it as a hardworking individual able to make a living and not having to pay taxes. Perhaps the early American version was independent farmers and small businessmen. You see a strong nation where democracy and capitalism work hand-in-hand with a can-do attitude as a shining example to the rest of the world. Where people are self-reliant, and are free to take lumps from their own mistakes, learn from them and move forward.

But now… imagine that you’re one of those CEO’s that you feel aren’t “really” American, who drove their business the “wrong way”. WHICH WAY would you have them drive their business? If they’re in steel-making for example, and they’re running steel-mill here… should they give up their profit-orientation (which is the heart and soul of capitalism) to KEEP their business here? Or should they move their money to cheap-labor markets overseas where they’ll stand to make about three times as much profit per ton of steel? Or maybe they should commit to staying in place, and out-producing their foreign rivals by investing in automation and laying off half of their employees? Or maybe they should stand pat, keep their profit margins and costs high, and market their expensive steel in a cheap-steel market? Or possibly they should CUT their profit margins, and become a takeover target???

You can’t have it both ways, 6ix.

Capitalism is about PROFIT. It’s not about freedom, democracy, individualism, America, self-reliance, hard work, or any of the other spangled attributes you care to hang on it. If a company can maker a profit on the backs of Chinese prison labor, that's what it'll do. If it can buy out or sabotage another business, that's what it'll do. It's not because the capitalist is a bad person, but because if he doesn't go for the maximum profit... well, someone else will and it's eat or be eaten.

The LAST thing a business wants is competition. The ultimate goal of any business is to drive out every other business, to be the only, to have everyone groveling for their jobs, to force everyone to drink from their cup and eat from their dish. And as time goes on due to economies of scale the bigger businesses eventually eat the little ones. Cargill swallows up the family farm and Walmart drives out the mom-and-pop shop. In fact, I can show you- if you’re interested- that capitalism is absolutely antithetical to freedom and individualism. It’s not government that perverted capitalism 6ix, it’s the other way around. Capitalism is what it is.

I’ll have to get to your other point later. In the meantime, I'll leave you with this quote from my favorite doom-and-gloom webite:

Quote:

The complacency that took hold of financial markets (equity and partly credit) - after the bailout of the Bear Stearns’ creditor and the extension of the lender of last resort support of the Fed to systemically important broker dealers (those that are primary dealers) – is rapidly fading away as financial markets and financial institutions are again under severe stress.

Let us detail how…

Independent analysts of the banking system and the other financial intermediaries have clearly pointed out that the massive writedowns and losses of financial institutions will continues as the credit losses will spread from subprime to near prime and prime mortgages; to commercial real estate loans that had similarly poor underwriting standards; to unsecured consumer credit (credit cards under stress given the balance sheets of households, auto loans that are in big trouble with auto sales plunging, student loans whose market is now frozen); to leveraged loans and bridge loans that financed reckless LBOs that should have never happened; to muni bonds now that distressed municipalities – see Vallejo in California as the canary in the mine for an onslaught of muni bonds defaults; to monoline insurers battered by a double whammy of muni bonds under stress on top of the trouble of toxic MBS and CDO that were wrapped in monoline guarantees; to industrial and commercial loans as many debt burdened firms are in trouble; to corporate bonds as hundreds of billions of dollars of junk bonds were issued in the last four years by heavily indebted and poorly performing corporations; to the CDS market where $62 trillion of nominal protections – that was sold by a small group of broker dealers, hedge funds and monoline insurers – is sitting on top of an outstanding stock of only $6 trillion of corporate bonds; with the ensuing risk that the losses among the seller of protection will lead to some of them going belly up and thus show to the buyers of protection that there was no hedge as counterparty risk rears its ugly head. These delinquencies, defaults and bankruptcies have only started to rise outside subprime mortgages but they are now mounting in a tsunami of rising losses as the subprime disaster was only the tip of an iceberg of a credit bubble run amok across the economy and across many and different credit markets. No wonder that now heads just started to roll at the top of Wachovia and WaMu; that Lehman – even with the protection of the Fed security blanket – is in trouble again; that Countrywide is on the verge on bankruptcy once BofA pulls out of a loser acquisition of the biggest and most insolvent mortgage lender; that the troubles among mortgage lenders are now spreading to the UK where the housing bubble was as big – if not bigger – than in the US; that S&P finally downgraded major financial institutions; and now that more financial trouble lurks ahead for major US banks and smaller US banks (small banks that will go into bankruptcy by the hundreds as the housing recession deepens, home prices collapse and the economic recession deepens and persist longer than expected by the market consensus).

So after a brief period of complacency – if not delusional optimism that the worst was behind us – a painful reality check is setting in. Fed Funds easing and new liquidity facilities (TAF, TSLF, PDCF, Swap lines) cannot resolve insolvency and credit problems that go well beyond illiquidity.

A contracting economy, falling employment for months now, the worst US housing recession since the Great Depression, collapsing home values, millions of households underwater with an incentive to walk away, a shopped out and saving-less and debt burdened US consumer buffeted by falling home prices, falling HEW, falling stock prices, rising debt servicing ratios, oil at $130 a barrel and gasoline at $4 a gallon, collapsing consumer confidence and falling employment are taking the toll on the economy, on financial markets, on banks, on the shadow financial system and on money markets and credit markets. We were in the eye of the storm rather than past the storm; and the recent events and developments suggest that the worst is ahead of us, for the economy, for equity markets, for credit markets and for money markets.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2008 4:51 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Ask what you can do for your country.

On second thought...don't ask...

H

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Wednesday, June 4, 2008 6:05 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Not to mix up 'country' with 'profit' or 'business' of course as they are not the same.

On second thought, maybe you don't know that.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, June 4, 2008 6:16 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hero, we should be asking what we can do for our country. BUT...

I heard an interesting analogy of the income distribution in this country. The analogy was to a football field... something which most people are familiar with: If you were to stack $1000 bills at various lengths down the field representing the per-capita income of that percentile, at the 50-yard line it would be an inch high. One yard from the goal it would be a foot high. A tenth of an inch from the goal it would be OVER A MILE HIGH. The richest people in the USA have a stack OVER TEN MILES HIGH.

These people are not like you and me. They're not in the same boat... as Rue says, they're in some pretty fancy lifeboats and we're on the Titanic. Some of us have had a nicer ride than others, but damn few of us are in control in any sense of the word. It is only your petty ego that creates the fantasy otherwise.

I'm all willing to help my country. But sacrifice myself on the altar of capitalism? F*ck it.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2008 11:59 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Seriously, have you watched Serenity on a 42-inch plasma with surround sound? If that ain't happiness, I don't know what is...

(Ducking in to make a non-political comment...)
Watching FIREFLY on a 42-ince plasma with surround sound...

God, it's still the best damn show on earth.

--------------------------
(Ducking out again.)

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Wednesday, June 4, 2008 12:58 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Amen.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2008 1:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

I'm all willing to help my country. But sacrifice myself on the altar of capitalism? F*ck it.

Well, I am a happy cog.
Use me, abuse me, bleed me dry of funds & ideals.
In God we trust, but in the rich we find salvation from gluttony.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of a dwindling economy, I will fear no poverty, for rich peeps maketh me safe from terrorists, and I will dwell in the house of the Man, forever.

Amenisall

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Wednesday, June 4, 2008 1:54 PM

MAL4PREZ

Here's what I don't get 6ix - you feel disgust for peeps who don't handle their money well, yet you recommend that we should all run out and spend this little bit extra we've gotten?

I'll be storing mine away, cause I've got tight times ahead. Whether that earns your censure or praise doesn't much matter; it's just the way I handle my finances. I try not to make purchases based on what's in my account at any given moment, but on whether I'll be able to live comfortably and pay my bills for the foreseeable future. (If only the good ole US congress worked that way...)

But damn do I want that big ass flatscreen TV!

Maybe next summer.

(And I'm trying really really hard not to say something very smartassed and bad.... duct taping mouth... not saying it...

)

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, June 4, 2008 3:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

But damn do I want that big ass flatscreen TV! Maybe next summer.

I'm right there with ya, Mal4.

No3footSerenityonmywallthisyearisall

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Wednesday, June 4, 2008 3:48 PM

My wife and I talked it over after Xmas, and we figured that since TV and DVDs are pretty much our entire entertainment budget - we don't really go to clubs or live shows any more, except for once every couple years - we decided we could swing the big TV and HD service. We got lucky and found a floor-model Westinghouse 42" LCD on sale at BestBuy for $699, and couldn't pass it up. I'm more than thrilled by it.

The only downside is that when I rent movies on DVD now, we're disappointed with how crappy they look compared to high-def TV. I can hardly wait to see some Blu-Ray movies up close. But I'm definitely trying to hold off on that purchase. PS3 is giving me the siren song, though...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Wednesday, June 4, 2008 9:50 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

You should really try those upgrade adapter, for like $30 on sale. many i hear from rave about them. they take normal crud signals and make them look not too bad on HD huge screens.

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Thursday, June 5, 2008 5:43 AM

FLETCH2

You need an upscaling DVD player. The best is by a firm called Oppo who use the same chipset that is used in broadcast upscale converters.

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Thursday, June 5, 2008 5:46 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Here's what I don't get 6ix - you feel disgust for peeps who don't handle their money well, yet you recommend that we should all run out and spend this little bit extra we've gotten?

Exactly. Only you said it better than I was going to.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Thursday, June 5, 2008 7:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
You need an upscaling DVD player. The best is by a firm called Oppo who use the same chipset that is used in broadcast upscale converters.

I may be looking at an upconverting DVD player at some point, but hopefully not too soon. I've already put enough money into the entertainment system for now. 42" TV, home theater system, Philips DVD recorder with 160GB hard drive, HD DVR... I should be set for a while, or at least until the PS3's call just can't be ignored any more... :)

Mike

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Thursday, June 5, 2008 9:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

The only downside is that when I rent movies on DVD now, we're disappointed with how crappy they look compared to high-def TV. I can hardly wait to see some Blu-Ray movies up close.

Pshaw, I'm done with upgrading my home entertainment- Blu-Ray can go hang!

Until Serenity comes out that wayisall

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Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:36 AM

Chris: You know there's at least TALK of a Firefly Blu-Ray set, too, right? Between Firefly and Serenity, you just might change your mind is all... :)

I'm not crazy about yet ANOTHER DVD player on my shelf, which is why I'm (a) waiting until Blu-Ray players get a helluva lot cheaper, or (b) just going with PS3, which already has a Blu-Ray player (of sorts, anyway) built in.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, June 5, 2008 1:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
[Between Firefly and Serenity, you just might change your mind is all... :)

i'm doomed.....

isall

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Thursday, June 5, 2008 6:54 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Time to spend that rebate! heh heh heh!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, June 6, 2008 3:17 AM

Rue, I'm answering you now beacuae you were the first response after my post. I can't come to this site or many others at work anymore so my ability to talk here is greatly diminished. (I know you posted to me Signy, but I'll get back to you too when I have more time)

My work probably is less valuable. We've been consumed by a larger more efficient company and people have been axed. Fortunately for me, I'm not middle management, and I happen to feel secure in a job which in discussions with a very trusted peer I've discovered that I wouldn't likely even have still today if things didn't work out the way they had.

Do I think my work is any less critical today personally? No... but I belong to a company where a lot more people know how to do what I do than did before. I happened to get a very decent promotion last year though, so I'm still doing much better, income-wise, than I was doing at the beginning-middle of 2007. On my own merits....

I'm saving today. Every damn penny that my vices will allow. I don't want to work for someone else the rest of my life. When I was poor I imagined making enough to live in the boonies on basically nothing... using solar and wind to power my home and raising some livestock and growing a garden to survive off of nothing.

Today, now that I've saved some cash, I'm thinking a little differently. I still want all that someday, but I might not want to start at 40 when I have a chance that I can take an idea I've had and make a business out of it and have a decent amount of self-made capital to start it up.

To me... that's what Capitalism is. Not all places in the world would even have miniscule loopholes which accidentally allowed a serf to do such a thing.

I know it's not easy for everyone, but it is possible. And being a guy that as little as 4 years ago lived in a basement with 3 cats who pissed all over the place and over 6 grand in credit card debt, I can say what is and is not possible in such a system.

But... back to topic. I'm not getting paid less than I was, on the books, than I did last year. I am just privy to almost none of the extra monetary perks we could possibly get every year, and this year they screwed us out of our cost of living increase. (even the old company called it a merit increase, but that's just the CEO's way of making the cattle feel like they have to do something extra to earn what they did the year before minus inflation)

I'm not saying two different things. It's only a conundrum to you because you can't fathom my ideas which mesh as anything other than two separate polar identites which could never co-mingle.

Clinton didn't really pay down the budget either. While that money manipulation was going on, he was busy making China the superpower it is today and that is in large part why we're paying so much for things as of this writing. Give me some numbers and I'll show you how easy it is to do magic with them.

Easy Bushites....... I'm not taking your side here. Bush did nothing but promote it and make the situation worse for us.

I don't think Reagan was a bad president, although I'll agree with you on Bush and Bush senior. The facts show that interest rates were raised phenominally during his administration and that led to all the good times you enjoyed the last two decades. Being one of the few who is responsible with his money, I'm all in favor of 10% interest rates or more today.

I know you wrote more, but that's all I got for now. Good luck to you.

If you have debt Rue, don't buy more shit. If you are in good shape, buy American.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, June 6, 2008 3:26 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

I'm saving today. Every damn penny that my vices will allow.

Good for you! That's the smartest thing you can do.

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Friday, June 6, 2008 3:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
PS3 is giving me the siren song, though...

Oh... and real quick.....

PS3 supposedly wickedly upscales DVDs now. Forget even that it plays games, it's hands down the best most future-proof Blu Ray player around. Any early adoptors of the format are sorely disappointed with their $1k+ machines that can't do half of the crap that PS3 can.

Haven't bought it myself yet cause it costs to much for my minimalistic tastes, but if you're going to buy Blu Ray, it's the way to go.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, June 6, 2008 3:48 AM

Hell.... I'm here now and it's been a while, so I guess it will be one of those no-sleep days before work.

Signy...

I agree with a lot of what you said. I'm a huge opponent of outsourcing out of our country. Several months after I got my job a lot of developers jobs were sent overseas. This, by a CEO who not-unlike-any-other-CEO only cared about the bottom line for that particular quarter. I'm one of the people who didn't find The Onion's article about how we all work for one company in the year 2000 funny at all. (It was the last page of a book of the best Onion articles made in 1999)

I'm one of the most paranoid mother-fuckers you've ever met Signy. I think you probably know that by now....

But you know what's funny?

Out of all of the people I know in real life or in psuedo-life on the net I'm one of the only damn guys that doesn't think the sky is falling today. My friends and family are freaking out today. But I'm not.... You know why I'm not freaking out today? Because most of the things happening today I've been telling everyone I know will happen for the last 5 or 6 years or so, no matter how crazy they though me or how depressing I got. I really wasn't fun at parties there for a while. It's true... ask people who know me personally at Dragon Con this year.....

The really funny thing is... and wait for it.....

Now that we're here, I can't believe that our Government or the World's Governments will allow civilization to collapse. This is just another cyclical downswing, and although it's very unique in that it's a global downswing, things will come back up again.

This is my time to be the optomist. I've never been the glass is half full guy in my life and I have to say it's quite a nice feeling.

Bottom line is... I know I'd rather live here than in Russia or China today. There may be lives lived much better in those places and even better chance that they're lived better in Europe, but the grass is always greener.

Speaking of grass..... I'm not an enviornmentalist, but there are a lot of great things happening today with alternative energies (minus using food to fuel our cars) that wouldn't have been available at 2 bucks a gallon. I drive a 6,000 pound beast made in 1979 and though gas is killing me when I have to go somwhere far, I hope the gas prices rise even more. It's good for the enviornment, and it's especially good for eliminating any and all dependance on foreign oil so we can go back to our "Ron Paul" roots and be an autonomous nation and prosper the way we did for over 150 years before we fucked it all up.

Relax... Signy..... everyone......

We'll all be okay.

Let somebody who has spent years of their life fearing a day like this tell you that it's not nearly as bad as I had thought it would get, and as long as we don't sell each other out like Winston and Julia, we will make it past all of the turmoil coming our way.

We've been given the greatest Government and way of life ever offered to common folk that the world has ever seen. It's only our fault if we let it slip from our grasp.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, June 6, 2008 9:38 AM