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Originally posted by reaverfan:
Jesus fuck, you can't stop lying, can you? You're RUSSIAN. You don't live here. Your country is not divided. It's just a fascist dictatorship and you're fine with that.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

WHAT ARE AMERICA'S INTERESTS?

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Originally posted by reaverfan:

Jesus fuck, you can't stop lying, can you? You're RUSSIAN. You don't live here. Your country is not divided. It's just a fascist dictatorship and you're fine with that.

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Agreed, sig is a russian troll...

T

Stupid people don't know they're stupid, and they certainly don't realize how obvious it is to others.

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Originally posted by second:

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Originally posted by SignyM:

WHAT ARE AMERICA'S INTERESTS?

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That no American is homeless or hungry or without healthcare? Many Americans don't have those problems which is why those problems will endure since Democratic and Republican voters have a powerful antipathy toward paying taxes to fix other people's problems. Political speechifying before or after elections will not convince them to change their attitudes about their money.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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Originally posted by second:

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Originally posted by SignyM:

WHAT ARE AMERICA'S INTERESTS?

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That no American is homeless or hungry or without healthcare? Many Americans don't have those problems which is why those problems will endure since Democratic and Republican voters have a powerful antipathy toward paying taxes to fix other people's problems. Political speechifying before or after elections will not convince them to change their attitudes about their money.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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But here's the thing, SECOND, and I'm glad that you engage in a conversation about issues.

Not everything can OR SHOULD be solved by tax-and-spend.

Why are Americans homeless? Well, part of the problem is that there are a lot of mentally ill and drug addicted people who aren't getting treatment.

OTOH many people have been priced out of the market by rampant speculation. You can't build or spend your way out of that. The only way to fix that is to rein in speculation with higher interest rates and stricter lending standards.

And then the is the problem that there are not enough meaningful jobs at living wages. Thanks to offshoring and automation and illegal immigration there simply aren't enough jobs to go around. (Please note: offshoring,illegal immigration, and automation are profit-driven decisions which the government can modify by policy)

So young people stalled their lives by going to college, which left them saddled with debt and unable to afford buying a home.

Treatment is a tax and spend issue, but other solutions can be found in tariff and investment and trade policies, lending and banking standards, etc. Not everything requires a "sugar daddy" government approach, and if the government shovels more money into a speculative housing bubble it v will probably do what money flowing into any bubble does: make it bigger.

There will always be people who are incapable of working, but rather than treat EVERYONE as a charity case, why not make it possible for people to be able to contribute to their own lives? I think they'd feel a lot better.

I'm not saying this is the only way, or the best way, but this is the best I can come up with. If you think you have better ideas that's great.

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SIGNYM: WHAT ARE AMERICA'S INTERESTS?

SECOND: That no American is homeless or hungry or without healthcare? Many Americans don't have those problems which is why those problems will endure since Democratic and Republican voters have a powerful antipathy toward paying taxes to fix other people's problems. Political speechifying before or after elections will not convince them to change their attitudes about their money.

SIGNYM: But here's the thing, SECOND, and I'm glad that you engage in a conversation about issues.
Not everything can OR SHOULD be solved by tax-and-spend.
Why are Americans homeless? Well, part of the problem is that there are a lot of mentally ill and drug addicted people who aren't getting treatment.
OTOH many people have been priced out of the market by rampant speculation. You can't build or spend your way out of that. The only way to fix that is to rein in speculation with higher interest rates and stricter lending standards.

And then the is the problem that there are not enough meaningful jobs at living wages. Thanks to offshoring and automation and illegal immigration there simply aren't enough jobs to go around. (Please note: offshoring,illegal immigration, and automation are profit-driven decisions which the government can modify by policy)

So young people stalled their lives by going to college, which left them saddled with debt and unable to afford buying a home.

Treatment is a tax and spend issue, but other solutions can be found in tariff and investment and trade policies, lending and banking standards, etc. Not everything requires a "sugar daddy" government approach, and if the government shovels more money into a speculative housing bubble it v will probably do what money flowing into any bubble does: make it bigger.

There will always be people who are incapable of working, but rather than treat EVERYONE as a charity case, why not make it possible for people to be able to contribute to their own lives? I think they'd feel a lot better.

I'm not saying this is the only way, or the best way, but this is the best I can come up with. If you think you have better ideas that's great.

SECOND: I have the book for you: "The rent is too damn high: what to do about it, and why it matters more than you think"
https://libgen.unblockit.app/search.php?req=rent+is+too+damn+high

The final chapter, Reopening the American Frontier, will give you some ideas. A sample:

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Even as urban America revived, the overall national economy has had a bad case of the post-industrial blues.

Contrary to what many people think, this is not a case of Americans no longer building things. Industrial output declines in recessions, but over the long haul neither “offshoring” nor Chinese growth changes the fact that America’s factories churn out more dollars’ worth of products than ever before. What they don’t churn out like they used to is jobs. Across the industrialized world, factory work is increasingly done by fewer people and more machines. The service economy has been, in many ways, a disappointment. We’ve had sluggish productivity growth and stagnant median wages. The economic expansion of the George W. Bush years was the weakest in postwar history before it turned into the worst recession in eighty years.

These problems are multifaceted, and you should be suspicious of anyone pushing a pet theory of everything. But Americans must consider the possibility that decades of ill-considered and inefficient land-use policies are an underrated driver of these trends.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

The economy is like a game of cards with ten people sitting at a table. But one player get 1% of the pot, win or lose, with every round. At the end of 100 rounds everyone is out of money except one person, and the game folds. That is the nature of profit- it doesn't return money back into circulation- whether that profit is sucked out of the economy by manufacturing or financialism.

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SIGNYM:

The economy is like a game of cards with ten people sitting at a table. But one player get 1% of the pot, win or lose, with every round. At the end of 100 rounds everyone is out of money except one person, and the game folds. That is the nature of profit- it doesn't return money back into circulation- whether that profit is sucked out of the economy by manufacturing or financialism.

SECOND: Thomas Piketty wrote an entire book, Capital and ideology, about all the clever and complicated ways societies can go wrong in economic history. Download the free book: https://libgen.unblockit.app/search.php?req=Piketty+Capital+ideology

Piketty is not the kind of person who will simplify things for you, but I am. He is telling governments to NOT allow the greediest citizens to do what they please. Part Two, Slave and Colonial Societies, is full of such stories of greed running free.

I guess Californians don't read Piketty or can't generalize from what they read in order to understand what's happening right in front of them. Look around California at how Uber and Lyft operated and will legally continue to operate. And the ugliest part is that the voters approved it this week: "Big business spent millions to sway Californians’ votes, and received billions in return"
www.marketwatch.com/story/big-business-spent-millions-to-sway-californ
ians-votes-and-received-billions-in-return-11604540224
Voters approved of Uber drivers suffering and Uber stock-owners benefiting from the suffering. Uber understood the ideology of the voters and convinced them it is fair to harm Uber drivers.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Just to continue in the "fallout" theme:

Even tho there will be a divided government, Biden's backers (*with Biden as the front piece) still have a lot of authority as chief administrator, Commander in Chief, and chief negotiator for the USA.


Since Biden* has the backing of the deep state (CIA/FBI/NSA, State Department, DOD, aparatchiks scattered throughout the administration, MI6, NATO, the EU, IMF, etc) we can expect that he* will authorize and promote the folowing


MOAR WAR. Trump let Mike Pompeo and the State Dept interfere with any number of other nations, but the one thing I can say in his favor was that -unlike Obama- he didn't start any NEW wars. Biden* will recommit USA troops and proxies to various hotspots like Syria, Ukraine, possibly moving (jihadi and/or Nazi) proxies into Nagorno-Karabakh and other places you can't find on a map and probably don't care about. The ironic thing is that the Democrat party used to be the party of peace; it is now the party of war.

MOAR "FREE" TRADE. Biden* will attempt to negotiate TTP and TTIP-like "free trade" agreements. Fortunately, this must be ratified by the Senate, so there is a possibility of stopping it there.

MOAR SUPPORT OF BANKS Like Obama before him, Biden will shower money on banks without prosecution when they come into trouble (which they will).

MOAR surveillance. Another thing you can say about Trump is that he didn't institute or promote the widespread illegal surveillance that GWB inititated and that Obama greatly expanded.

PERMANENT POWER TO THE DEMS. I expect the Biden* would fail at any attempt to swing power to Dems by - for example- adding DC or Puerto Rico as states, doing away with the Electoral College, and expanding the Supreme Court etc. and that these will be blocked by the Supreme Court, which now has a majority of literalists. Anything that requires a Constitutional Amendment will be referred to the process of amending the Constitution thru Congressional or state ratification.

"REPARATIONS", ONE-TIME assistance. I expect Biden* will advocate for reparations to pander to the indentitarians, and one-time assistance, but will not promote UBI.

Overall, expect to see a RE-EXPANSION OF FEDERAL POWER OVER THE STATES.

The remainder needs more thought.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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SIGNYM:

The economy is like a game of cards with ten people sitting at a table. But one player get 1% of the pot, win or lose, with every round. At the end of 100 rounds everyone is out of money except one person, and the game folds. That is the nature of profit- it doesn't return money back into circulation- whether that profit is sucked out of the economy by manufacturing or financialism.

SECOND: Thomas Piketty wrote an entire book, Capital and ideology, about all the clever and complicated ways societies can go wrong in economic history. Download the free book: https://libgen.unblockit.app/search.php?req=Piketty+Capital+ideology

Piketty is not the kind of person who will simplify things for you, but I am. He is telling governments to NOT allow the greediest citizens to do what they please. Part Two, Slave and Colonial Societies, is full of such stories of greed running free.

I guess Californians don't read Piketty or can't generalize from what they read in order to understand what's happening right in front of them. Look around California at how Uber and Lyft operated and will legally continue to operate. And the ugliest part is that the voters approved it this week: "Big business spent millions to sway Californians’ votes, and received billions in return"
www.marketwatch.com/story/big-business-spent-millions-to-sway-californ
ians-votes-and-received-billions-in-return-11604540224
Voters approved of Uber drivers suffering and Uber stock-owners benefiting from the suffering. Uber understood the ideology of the voters and convinced them it is fair to harm Uber drivers.

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Marx wrote a whole THREE BOOKS on the topic, and as far as I can tell Picketty is just rephrasing it for modern audiences. (And Veblen - someone that you previously referenced - wrote about the evils of rentier capitalism.)

So, do you agree that the fundamental problem is a systemic problem of profit, and not a problem of "Republicans" or "Democrats"?

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SECOND It is crooked businessmen, not the abstract concept of profits, wrecking the American economy. Sorry to tell you, but Picketty convinced me that a business owner can profit either from a slave or a well-paid worker.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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SECOND It is crooked businessmen, not the abstract concept of profits, wrecking the American economy. Sorry to tell you, but Picketty convinced me that a business owner can profit either from a slave or a well-paid worker.

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Then IMHO Picketty doesn't understand how money and power work.

A well-meaning business person may make a 3% profit, a crooked business person may make a 10% profit. Eventually, the business with the 10% profit will use that money to springboard either to greater market shares or business acquisitions. Either way, the businesses with the highest profits will evolve over time into monopolies if not restrained. It's an inevitable consequence of our political-economic model. People don't seem to understand, but while many things in nature tend to disperse (like smoke, water, and heat etc) SOME things concentrate, like gravitational objects: the more they get, the more they get.

Money and power acts like a gravitational objects unless restrained: they concentrate rather than dispersing.

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American slaves didn't fall into slavery, they were violently forced. 45 million Americans weren't attracted by a gravitational field into poverty. They were kicked, beaten, fired, and starved into it.

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SECOND: Money and power are not controlled by anything remotely like physics.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Going back to society as an organism: Most people just go along doing their best to function in whatever role they have been cast. They simply can't believe that SOME people are actually like cancer cells. Society doesn't recognize these malign interlopers because these malign interlopers are very good at hiding; also, they have convinced everyone that their presence is natural, inevitable, necessary, or even beneficial. Society is warped to make concentrating power and money easier, legal, tolerable. SOCIETY ITSELF WILL PROMOTE SOCIOPATHY.

At that point, it's not a problem of individuals, it's a SYSTEMS problem.

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Chainsaw Al - sociopath or good guy?

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:
But he was so successful ... and ... rich ... the kind of person you admire the most.

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SECOND: One President, I completely forget which one, had EPA rules against methane releases. Another President, I forget his name, but he has a history of being a sociopath according to his niece, withdrew the rules.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

As you can see, SECOND, although some of our Presidents have done SOME good, they have done FAR MORE to continue to develop and expand a system which inexorably funnels money to the wealthiest, and cede control to the economic elites abroad.

Why do you keep pretending this is all "one side's" fault?

We are at a stage when money rules our government, especially at the national and international level.

This isn't a "President" problem, or a "Republican" or "Democrat" problems, or a "Congressional" problem or "media" problem or even a "deep state" problem, this has become a SYSTEMS problem.

Our entire system: our laws and lawmakers, our media, our ethics, our military, our taxes, our spook agencies, our foreign policy establishment, and most of our NGOs ... every aspect of our lives that nudges or compels us to do one thing over another ... is wrapped around the goal of making the rich ... richer.

SO FAR BEYOND MERE POLITICAL PARTIES.

You start being interesting, and then you go off the rails into your private war on the GOP again.

Sigh.

Keep your eye on the ball, m'kay?

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As you can see, SECOND, although some of our Presidents have done SOME good, they have done FAR MORE to continue to develop and expand a system which inexorably funnels money to the wealthiest, and cede control to the economic elites abroad.

Why do you keep pretending this is all "one side's" fault?

We are at a stage when money rules our government, especially at the national and international level.

This isn't a "President" problem, or a "Republican" or "Democrat" problems, or a "Congressional" problem or "media" problem or even a "deep state" problem, this has become a SYSTEMS problem.

Our entire system: our laws and lawmakers, our media, our ethics, our military, our taxes, our spook agencies, our foreign policy establishment, and most of our NGOs ... every aspect of our lives that nudges or compels us to do one thing over another ... is wrapped around the goal of making the rich ... richer.

SO FAR BEYOND MERE POLITICAL PARTIES.

You start being interesting, and then you go off the rails into your private war on the GOP again.

Sigh.

Keep your eye on the ball, m'kay?

SECOND: You called profit a physics problem comparable to gravity. You also called it a systems problem. It is neither. It's a human problem.

Now I launch into an old man hinting at his career as an engineer. When I was designing control systems for petrochemical plants, the difference between a systems problem and a human problem was always the main thing we think about. The human operators of these plants were not created even approximately equal. Some were attentive and others should never be allowed in a control room. Rather than telling you how I handled that problem, let me point you to something far easier for you to understand: How to keep incompetent, dangerous, suicidal, or drunken pilots away from the controls of commercial aviation aircraft.

There does not exist anything remotely like pilot standards for business CEOs or government officials, which is why many businesses and countries have frequent crash landings that kill their passengers and destroy planes and buildings. Sorry to tell you, but many American CEOs and US Presidents should be grounded and their licenses taking away because they are just too dishonest and incompetent and greedy for the job they are in.

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:

I recall you bragging that none of your designs ever blew up because of your superiority in creating good systems.

Did you ALSO make sure they were never operated by incompetent people? Or was your superior design skill the difference between a system that might blow up (other designs) and one that wouldn't (yours) - despite your inability to select capable operators?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

So, look at our political and economic systems. Do they take into account the possible ineptitude, inattentiveness, greed, or maliciousness of the humans operating it?

The Founding Fathers did their best to design A POLITICAL SYSTEM of democratic voting, balance of powers, and so forth, to mitigate the worst of human behavior. They discussed among themselves whether a "large system" (federal) was less corruptible or subject to the tyrannies of prejudice than a "small system" (local). They built in protections so the minority wouldn't be subject to a tyranny of the majority, and placed freedom of speech at the top of the list so that thoughts could compete in the "marketplace of ideas", and gun rights second so that tyranny could not be ILLEGALLY enforced. They weren't as stupid as you think, and a political system WAS designed.

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SECOND: The commonplace sociopath CEO or US President do not face competently designed safety shutdown systems protecting the company or country from maleficence for personal profit.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
An "economic system" developed but not designed, but it COULD be designed by writing the laws using the POLITICAL system ... which is one of the reasons why the economic elite are so focused on controlling the political system (and the media, because democracies are subject to mass changes of opinion). For example, laws could abolish The Fed, or require 100% capitalization of banks, or do away with stock ownership, or require cooperative ownership, or eliminate "corporations as people", or put businesses and people on the same tax playing field. So you see how the political system COULD, in theory, completely re-design the economic system, taking into account the frailties of human social behavior.

So, put your thinking cap on. You've designed systems. So design a political and economic system that achieves the goals that you set out to achieve: That no American goes hungry or homeless or without medical care. Build in the required sensors and feedback loops to ensure it doesn't go off the rails. Make it durable and flexible, able to withstand natural and social shocks and outside interference.

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SECOND When I designed a safety shutdown system, it was built on a cleared field, even if in the middle of another petrochemical plant, and than it was slowly warmed up and started at a low production rate. This American system cannot be redesigned because there is no place to build it, unless you shutdown the old system for a few years while the new is being constructed. Neither party would allow that shutdown. They want either teeny-tiny incremental changes or instantaneous huge changes. But no engineer, maybe not even God, can redesign and build a plant either a little bit or a lot while it is in full production.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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SECOND When I designed a safety shutdown system, it was built on a cleared field, even if in the middle of another petrochemical plant, and than it was slowly warmed up and started at a low production rate. This American system cannot be redesigned because there is no place to build it, unless you shutdown the old system for a few years while the new is being constructed. Neither party would allow that shutdown. They want either teeny-tiny incremental changes or instantaneous huge changes. But no engineer, maybe not even God, can redesign and build a plant either a little bit or a lot while it is in full production.

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But nothing prevents us from thinking about and discussing what a system should look like.

IF we're going to aim for incremental changes, then it pays to have a goal or vision in mind, otherwise you'll just get blown all over the map.

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SECOND You are talking science fiction. What you do to create this beautiful new future is set aside a state, maybe Montana or Texas, clear the people off and begin again.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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SECOND You are talking science fiction. What you do to create this beautiful new future is set aside a state, maybe Montana or Texas, clear the people off and begin again.

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No, that's idiotic. History tells us that change is possible because systems HAVE BEEN changed, deliberately and by human action. If it were impossible to change systems, we would still be living in tribes, or under monarchies.

Why are you arguing against change?

Anyway, I gotta go. It's been fun.

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Originally posted by second:
Trump Plans to Barricade Himself in the Oval Office and Refuse to Come Out If Biden Wins
https://web.archive.org/web/20201106224947/https://www.vanityfair.com/
news/2020/11/donald-trump-no-concession

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:
I'll file that with "golden showers" and all the other made up "stuff" you flog here.

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SECOND You are talking science fiction. What you do to create this beautiful new future is set aside a state, maybe Montana or Texas, clear the people off and begin again.

SIGNYM: No, that's idiotic. History tells us that change is possible because systems HAVE BEEN changed, deliberately and by human action. If it were impossible to change systems, we would still be living in tribes, or under monarchies.

Why are you arguing against change?

Anyway, I gotta go. It's been fun.

SECOND: There is change and then there is CHANGE. Walmart and Amazon and Apple and Ford's model T changed things, but founders of those companies didn't need government permission to exist. Then there is the 13th Amendment. That really CHANGED things for the BETTER, but it was done over the objections of every slave holding state government and only could have happened because most of the slave holding states did NOT have a vote since they had withdrawn from the Union. Read the whole article; don't stop after one paragraph: www.history.com/topics/black-history/thirteenth-amendment

Medium sized changes, smaller than the 13th Amendment and bigger than the iPhone, changes like Social Security and Medicare have to be rammed passed powerful objections and shouts of the Commies are coming. Social Security is 85 years old and people still vehemently object to payroll taxes for it. To change and improve Social Security enough so that the poor can retire on it will require going against the forces that want it shrunk to nothing. To expand Medicare so that the medical establishment will treat everyone, even those without money, will also require huge battles against American doctors and hospitals.

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Originally posted by CAPTAINCRUNCH:

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:
I'll file that with "golden showers" and all the other made up "stuff" you flog here.

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How do you know that was made up? Do you have any evidence it didn’t happen?

Honestly: Sad to see you be an enthusiastic “truth teller” about COVID and then such a lazy thinker on Trump. Reason?

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Two campaign advisers and one source close

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the President said Trump will exhaust his legal avenues for fighting the results in several key battleground states before giving any consideration to conceding.

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automatic safety shutdown systems that can handle anything less than carefully planned sabotage

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1KIKI - I'll file that with "golden showers" and all the other made up "stuff" you flog here.

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CC - How do you know that was made up? Do you have any evidence it didn’t happen?

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:

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1KIKI - I'll file that with "golden showers" and all the other made up "stuff" you flog here.

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CC - How do you know that was made up? Do you have any evidence it didn’t happen?

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"Trump Plans to Barricade Himself in the Oval Office and Refuse to Come Out If Biden Wins" Do you have any evidence this did happen?

Until somebody comes up with EVIDENCE - a concept you all seem to think means 'gossip' or 'I read it somewhere', which it doesn't - I'll file it with 'golden showers' and all the other ridiculous, evidence-free claims you lapped up so eagerly.

BTW - if you look at my COVID thread, you'll find nothing BUT evidence, except where I state a personal opinion, which I clearly identify as such.

I look for evidence at every turn. Do you?

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Because Trump Plans to Barricade Himself in the Oval Office and Refuse to Come Out If Biden Wins = Trump won't concede ?

Really? What language do you speak again, SECOND?

RF is an idiot. It's that simple.

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:

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1KIKI - I'll file that with "golden showers" and all the other made up "stuff" you flog here.

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CC - How do you know that was made up? Do you have any evidence it didn’t happen?

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"Trump Plans to Barricade Himself in the Oval Office and Refuse to Come Out If Biden Wins" Do you have any evidence this did happen?

Until somebody comes up with EVIDENCE - a concept you all seem to think means 'gossip' or 'I read it somewhere', which it doesn't - I'll file it with 'golden showers' and all the other ridiculous, evidence-free claims you lapped up so eagerly.

BTW - if you look at my COVID thread, you'll find nothing BUT evidence, except where I state a personal opinion, which I clearly identify as such.

I look for evidence at every turn. Do you?

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Because Trump Plans to Barricade Himself in the Oval Office and Refuse to Come Out If Biden Wins = Trump won't concede ?

Really? What language do you speak again, SECOND?

RF is an idiot. It's that simple.

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