Quote:

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The pilots on Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 initially reacted to the emergency by shutting off power to electric motors driven by the automated system, these people said, but then appear to have re-engaged the system to cope with a persistent steep nose-down angle. It wasn’t immediately clear why the pilots turned the automated system back on instead of continuing to follow Boeing’s standard emergency checklist, but government and industry officials said the likely reason would have been because manual controls to raise the nose didn’t achieve the desired results.

After first cranking a manual wheel in the cockpit that controls the same movable surfaces on the plane’s tail that MCAS had affected, the pilots turned electric power back on, one of these people said. They began to use electric switches to try to raise the plane’s nose, according to these people. But the electric power also reactivated MCAS, allowing it to continue its strong downward commands, the people said.

Reuters, which was also the recipient of leaks from investigators, offered a slightly different version of events. It reported that MCAS was reengaged four times as pilots scrambled to right the plane, and that investigators were looking into the possibility that the software might have reengaged without prompting from the pilots.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
According to WJS [via ZH], the pilots of the Ethiopian jet DID turn off the electric motors and attempt manual control, but apparently felt that procedure wasn't working (or maybe wasn't working fast enough) so the turned the electric motors back on which re-engaged the MACS and sent the plane into its final nose dive.

Quote:

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The pilots on Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 initially reacted to the emergency by shutting off power to electric motors driven by the automated system, these people said, but then appear to have re-engaged the system to cope with a persistent steep nose-down angle. It wasn’t immediately clear why the pilots turned the automated system back on instead of continuing to follow Boeing’s standard emergency checklist, but government and industry officials said the likely reason would have been because manual controls to raise the nose didn’t achieve the desired results.

After first cranking a manual wheel in the cockpit that controls the same movable surfaces on the plane’s tail that MCAS had affected, the pilots turned electric power back on, one of these people said. They began to use electric switches to try to raise the plane’s nose, according to these people. But the electric power also reactivated MCAS, allowing it to continue its strong downward commands, the people said.

Reuters, which was also the recipient of leaks from investigators, offered a slightly different version of events. It reported that MCAS was reengaged four times as pilots scrambled to right the plane, and that investigators were looking into the possibility that the software might have reengaged without prompting from the pilots.

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https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-03/bad-news-boeing-preliminary-
report-shows-anti-stall-software-sealed-flight-et302s

Of course, these are leaked fragments of a preliminary report, obviously being interpreted differently by different media outlets. Even with a full report we may not know exacly what happened ... IIRC the cockpit voice recorder was damaged beyond retrievability by the high speed of the crash.

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Originally posted by second:
The airline’s youngest-ever captain, a 29-year-old with an impressive 8,100 hours flying time, and his rookie 25-year-old co-pilot may have made a crucial mistake by leaving the engines at full take-off power, according to data and other pilots.

By the end, the aircraft was traveling at 500 knots (575 mph, 926 kph), far beyond its design limits. A “clacker” warning was telling the pilots their aircraft was going too fast. Data confirms the engines stayed at nearly full power. Other 737 pilots say that made the crew’s job tougher by making the controls much harder to move. . . .

That and some other potential missteps may have left them unable to fight flawed Boeing software that eventually sent the jet into an uncontrollable dive, experts said after studying the data.

“Power being left in take-off power while leveling off at that speed is not a normal procedure,” said one U.S. pilot, who declined to be named because he was not authorized to speak to the media. “I can’t imagine a scenario where you’d need to do that.” . . .

The combination of excess speed and cutting off the system while the plane was still leaning downwards meant up to 50 pounds of force would be needed to move the control column, and moving the manual trim wheels was impossible. . . . The captain asked the co-pilot to try to trim the plane manually using a wheel in the center console to lift the nose and make it easier to recover from the dive. But it was too hard to move the wheel. Both men then tried to pitch the nose up together. The captain, according to the report, said it was not enough.

www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-reconstruction-insi/how-e
xcess-speed-hasty-commands-and-flawed-software-doomed-an-ethiopian-airlines-737-max-idUSKCN1RH0FJ

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I read an interesting POV on the HARDWARE problems of the Boeing MAX8, which went like this:

All flight-critical components are designed into aircraft in threes, like three computers from three different manufacturers. However, the faulty Angle of Attack (AoA) sensor which activated the MACS software was only designed in as a single unit, with a second AoA sensor installed as an option.

The reason for this was that Boeing wanted to beat Airbus to the market, and so they decided to make the 737 Max 8 a MODIFICATION, rather than a whole new design. That meant they wanted to eliminate the need for costly re-training (including expensive simulagor training) by making the control panel exactly the same as previous versions of the 737 (none of which had MACS).

Well, the previous version of the 737 didn't have a MACS. The AOAs on previous airplanes only provided a stall warning, which pilots were supposed to respond to manually. But because the AoA sensor became part of an automated system, Boeing realized that TWO AoAs ... if providing conflicting information ... would require a new procedure ... with more training... which would have made the Max 8 non-competitive with Airbus.

So, some corporate accountants and heads made a penny-wise decision and decided to kill the second AoA (despite it being filght-critical).

The reason why Boeing wants to focu on the software is because a sofware problem is easy to fix. But the source of the problem ... a faulty AoA sensor ... is a HARDWARE problem which requires a HARDWARE fix. (In reality, the whole plane needs a re-design.)

Let's see if Boeing modifies the hardware, and then requires the appropriate training.

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Originally posted by second:
Today's tweet is connected to Boeing 737 Max

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
The World Trade Organization finds that the European Union subsidies to Airbus has adversely impacted the United States, which will now put Tariffs on $11 Billion of EU products! The EU has taken advantage of the U.S. on trade for many years. It will soon stop!
4:34 AM - 9 Apr 2019
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1115578769518018560

Boeing 737 Max is grounded; Airbus is still flying; Trump attacks Airbus indirectly by attacking EU.

The headline is "Dow falls 200 points as Trump tweets threat of $11 billion in ‘tariffs on EU products’" Apr 9, 2019 9:54 a.m. ET
www.marketwatch.com/story/stock-market-futures-edge-lower-as-us-threat
ens-european-tariffs-2019-04-09

Eventually Trump will forget about raising EU tariffs. It's a bluff. Things will return to normal: Boeing still grounded; Airbus still flying; Trump still thrashing.

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Originally posted by rue:
Yep. The 737 Max crashes are ALL TRUMP'S FAULT! ... despite the fact they're faulty by design, and were BOING!BOING! self-certified under Obama's FAA procedures.

http://www.boeing.com/company/about-bca/washington/737-max8-certificat
ion-03-09-17.page
A family first: 737 MAX 8 awarded FAA certification
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/dot-watchdog-is-auditing-faas-approval
-of-boeing-737-max-after-2-crashes.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-government-audit-faa-boeing-737-max
-certification-process-2019-3

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Originally posted by rue:

Social Security was stalled in an opposing Congress for 2 years even though the idea was wildly popular with the people. But it was eventually passed thanks to FDR using the power of the bully pulpit.

THAT'S what happens when a president really wants to do something.

Anything else is just an excuse.

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Originally posted by rue:
That's what happens when your 'history' pre-1935 is one wiki article deep:

https://www.ssa.gov/history/lettertoFDR.html
http://fdranewdealerinhope.weebly.com/social-security.html
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/great-depression/social-sec
urity-the-roosevelt-administration/
https://www.ssa.gov/history/1930.html
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/great-depression/the-new-de
al-part-ii/

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Originally posted by second:

Quote:

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Originally posted by rue:
That's what happens when your 'history' pre-1935 is one wiki article deep:

https://www.ssa.gov/history/lettertoFDR.html
http://fdranewdealerinhope.weebly.com/social-security.html
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/great-depression/social-sec
urity-the-roosevelt-administration/
https://www.ssa.gov/history/1930.html
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/great-depression/the-new-de
al-part-ii/

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Hello, rue, you stupid fucker. You started your countdown clock when a nobody wrote a letter in 1933 to FDR, one he never saw. The clock actually starts two years later, when Congress starts drafting a bill. That bill didn't start at the White House. Nothing would have happened if the GOP had a majority in Congress, but they were crushed by a majority of Democrats because the Republicans had crashed the economy of America.

I swear to god, rue, you are a deceitful Russian troll who did not even try to read the sources you pointed to. And I noticed you didn't say one goddamn thing about the GOP trying to kill Social Security at the Supreme Court two years after it passed. If there had been one less Democrat on the court, the GOP would have killed it dead as your brain.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by rue:
That's what happens when your 'history' pre-1935 is one wiki article deep:

https://www.ssa.gov/history/lettertoFDR.html
http://fdranewdealerinhope.weebly.com/social-security.html
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/great-depression/social-sec
urity-the-roosevelt-administration/
https://www.ssa.gov/history/1930.html
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/great-depression/the-new-de
al-part-ii/

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Originally posted by SECOND:
Hello, rue, you stupid fucker. You started your countdown clock when a nobody wrote a letter in 1933 to FDR, one he never saw. The clock actually starts two years later, when Congress starts drafting a bill. That bill didn't start at the White House. Nothing would have happened if the GOP had a majority in Congress, but they were crushed by a majority of Democrats because the Republicans had crashed the economy of America.

I swear to god, rue, you are a deceitful Russian troll who did not even try to read the sources you pointed to. And I noticed you didn't say one goddamn thing about the GOP trying to kill Social Security at the Supreme Court two years after it passed. If there had been one less Democrat on the court, the GOP would have killed it dead as your brain.

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Originally posted by rue:

In other words, due to FDR's actions, political opposition to SS disappeared by the time it came up for a vote in 1935.

But all this was in the links I provided, easily found. Though sadly, I can't either read information for you, or think for you. But you know what they say - you can lead a horse's ass to facts, but you can't make it think.

DONE NOW

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Originally posted by SECOND:
Obama did not have a super majority in Congress.

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FDR did.

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FDR did not create his super majority.

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Obama did not create his subpar majority, either.

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Originally posted by rue:
To get back to Obama's abysmal failure to act as a populist president after being elected as a populist president (data from various wiki pages and ballotpedia) ... Obama was routed in the midterms. It can't be overstated what a disaster for democrats the 2010 mid-terms were. This is in contrast to FDR whose strongly populist actions caused him to rout republicans during his midterms. Attempts to paint Obama as a hapless victim of outside forces instead of as having justly earned the result of his own failures are shown false by the data.:


Here were the standings before and after the 2008 elections, where the Democrats gained large numbers in Congress as a result of Obama's campaign:

Senate
Seats contested 35
D Seats before 49
D Seats after 57
D Seat change +8

House
Seats contested (all) 435
D Seats before 236
D Seats won 257
D Seat change +21

Nominee Barack Obama
Electoral vote 365(68%)
States carried 28 + DC + NE
Popular vote 69,498,516
Percentage 52.9%



But the 2010 midterms were a reversal in the Senate resulting in a 1seat majority:

Senate
D Seats before 57
D Seats after 51
D Seat change -6

And a rout everywhere else:

House
D Seats before 256
D Seats after 193
D Seat change -63

State legislatures
seats up for reelection 6,125 of 7,384
R +>660
D state senates before election 23 of 41
D state senates after election 15 of 41
D state houses before election 29 of 45
D state houses after election 16 of 45

Gubernatorial elections
positions up for election 37
D governorships before election 19
D governorships after election 9

This can't be attributed to 'racism'. People who voted overwhelmingly for Obama and democrats in 2008 didn't suddenly become racist by 2010.



And the 2012 general election showed a waning of support for Obama

Electoral vote 332(-33)
States carried 26 + DC(-3)
Popular vote 65,915,795(-3,582,721)
Percentage 51.1%(-1.8%)

And only minor D recoveries in Congress Senate +2, House +6; with a gain of 1 state Senate, and 4 state Houses.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Just to toss in a different twist on the topic ... "Self regulation" is exactly how the FDA operates. The drug companies do theiir own testing and submit their own data. (so what if they have to perform ten tests to get one that shows what that want?) There is a revolving door between the FDA and big pharma. Much university research is funded by, and therefore the data owned by, big pharma (and any uncomfortable data can be stuffed in a drawer)

I could point to any regulatory agency and you'll see much the same story. This has been going on for decades, not just under Trump for

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I'm wondering about something I haven't seen mentioned.

After the 2nd Flight Failure, were there any America-based Airlines which self-grounded their own 737 MAX birds?
Also, are these 300 grounded birds just sitting at random Airports, wherever they were when the grounding was announced?

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Quote:

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Originally posted by rue:

Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I'm wondering about something I haven't seen mentioned.

After the 2nd Flight Failure, were there any America-based Airlines which self-grounded their own 737 MAX birds?
Also, are these 300 grounded birds just sitting at random Airports, wherever they were when the grounding was announced?

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Good question!

I'm too busy to look up the answer myself but ... (maybe put this in the predictions thread) my guess would be no. Self-grounding would result in an economic loss. No company is going to voluntarily take a loss unless competitors are doing the same thing. (Gotta' keep the shareholders happy with them quarterly reports!) So businesses - especially publicly-traded ones - will wait until the government forces them do something they should do.

This I think is generally true for other expenses as well - pollution mitigation, worker safety, and product safety come to mind.

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https://onemileatatime.com/airlines-ground-737-max/
03/11/2019
Less than 24 hours after the Ethiopian Airlines incident, China banned domestic airlines from operating the 737 MAX, meaning that nearly 100 737 MAX aircraft are grounded in China.
To my knowledge, Cayman Airways has become the first airline to voluntarily ground the 737 MAX. The airline has two of these planes in their fleet.
Indonesia has become the second country after China to temporarily ground the 737 MAX (Garuda Indonesia and Lion Air).
FlyDubai has said that they “remain confident in the airworthiness of [their] fleet”
American, has said that they “have full confidence in the aircraft and [their] crew members, who are the best and most experienced in the industry”

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https://www.rt.com/business/453628-boeing-countries-ground-reject/
03/12/2019
countries / authorities grounding the 737 MAX
European Union restricted the 737 MAX from its airspace
UK, France, Germany, Austria, Ireland, the Netherlands, Norway and Belgium
Ethiopian Airlines (government owned)
China's Civil Aviation Administration
Indonesia
Oman closed its airports
Indian Directorate General of Civil Aviation grounded and closed airspace
Mongolia's Civil Aviation Authority
Royal Air Maroc (nationally owned)
The Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore ban flights into and out of Singapore
Vietnam / Civil Aviation Authority of Vietnam (CAAV) closed airspace
Australia's Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) ban flights into and out of Australia
The United Arab Emirates General Civil Aviation Authority
Aerolíneas Argentinas (government owned)
Russian Airlines

airlines voluntarily grounding 737 MAX
Cayman Airways
South Africa's Comair Airways
Eastar Jet Korea
Aeromexico

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03/12/2019
https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/uae/flydubai-grounds-boeing-737-max-fle
et/ar-BBUGEi0
Dubai General Aviation authority grounds FlyDubai 737s

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https://onemileatatime.com/canada-grounds-737-max/

Well, Canada has now banned the Boeing 737 MAX from their airspace. This means that Air Canada and WestJet are being forced to ground their planes — Sunwing already voluntarily did so earlier today.

Every single major 737 MAX operator is now grounded — either voluntarily or due to decisions by the government — except those in the US.

That means at this point American, Southwest, and United 737 MAX aircraft are the only ones continuing to fly. It’s the US against the world, it seems…

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Quote:

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Originally posted by rue:

Quote:

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https://onemileatatime.com/airlines-ground-737-max/
03/11/2019
Less than 24 hours after the Ethiopian Airlines incident, China banned domestic airlines from operating the 737 MAX, meaning that nearly 100 737 MAX aircraft are grounded in China.
To my knowledge, Cayman Airways has become the first airline to voluntarily ground the 737 MAX. The airline has two of these planes in their fleet.
Indonesia has become the second country after China to temporarily ground the 737 MAX (Garuda Indonesia and Lion Air).
FlyDubai has said that they “remain confident in the airworthiness of [their] fleet”
American, has said that they “have full confidence in the aircraft and [their] crew members, who are the best and most experienced in the industry”

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Quote:

---

https://www.rt.com/business/453628-boeing-countries-ground-reject/
03/12/2019
countries / authorities grounding the 737 MAX
European Union restricted the 737 MAX from its airspace
UK, France, Germany, Austria, Ireland, the Netherlands, Norway and Belgium
Ethiopian Airlines (government owned)
China's Civil Aviation Administration
Indonesia
Oman closed its airports
Indian Directorate General of Civil Aviation grounded and closed airspace
Mongolia's Civil Aviation Authority
Royal Air Maroc (nationally owned)
The Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore ban flights into and out of Singapore
Vietnam / Civil Aviation Authority of Vietnam (CAAV) closed airspace
Australia's Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) ban flights into and out of Australia
The United Arab Emirates General Civil Aviation Authority
Aerolíneas Argentinas (government owned)
Russian Airlines

airlines voluntarily grounding 737 MAX
Cayman Airways
South Africa's Comair Airways
Eastar Jet Korea
Aeromexico

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Quote:

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03/12/2019
https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/uae/flydubai-grounds-boeing-737-max-fle
et/ar-BBUGEi0
Dubai General Aviation authority grounds FlyDubai 737s

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At least 3 US airlines and 2 Canadian ones did NOT ground the 737 MAX voluntarily.

Quote:

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https://onemileatatime.com/canada-grounds-737-max/

Well, Canada has now banned the Boeing 737 MAX from their airspace. This means that Air Canada and WestJet are being forced to ground their planes — Sunwing already voluntarily did so earlier today.

Every single major 737 MAX operator is now grounded — either voluntarily or due to decisions by the government — except those in the US.

That means at this point American, Southwest, and United 737 MAX aircraft are the only ones continuing to fly. It’s the US against the world, it seems…

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It looks like 5 public companies, Cayman Airways, Sunwing of Canada, South Africa's Comair Airways, Eastar Jet Korea, and Aeromexico, voluntarily grounded the plane. All others grounded were due to government / agency action.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by second:
The real reason Boeing's new plane crashed twice

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Did it involve Flying Monkeys?

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