Quote:

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Originally posted by captaincrunch:

The question shouldn’t be about the dollar cost of the wall. It should be about the validity of the wall.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by captaincrunch:
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trumps-border-wall-how-much-it-will-ac
tually-cost-according-to-a-statistician

As a staunch supporter of refugees and the American dream, I find most of the rhetoric behind the idea of the wall flatly un-American. However, no one with a brain can argue that we shouldn’t have border security.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

Quote:

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Originally posted by captaincrunch:
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trumps-border-wall-how-much-it-will-ac
tually-cost-according-to-a-statistician

As a staunch supporter of refugees and the American dream, I find most of the rhetoric behind the idea of the wall flatly un-American. However, no one with a brain can argue that we shouldn’t have border security.

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Second just did make that argument against border security.

Democrats don't want it because they get more voters.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Hey GSTRING!
If walls "don't work", why did Israel build a successful one?
If walls "don't work" why did Hungary build a successful one?

IMHO the real reason why anti-American liberals such as GSTRING are against biulding wall aren't because it DOESN'T work, but because it DOES.

GSTRING, let's try a mental experiment ...

You claim that "walls don't work". That's a bit like saying that "physical barriers" don't work.

So if physical barriers "don't work" ... if the presence (or absence) of barriers such as rivers, mountains, deserts, or walls "don't work" ... let's try the opposite. Let's REMOVE those barriers! Let's build bridges and roads, along the very same routes that illegal migrants take to border-jump. Are you saying that bridges and roads wouldn't make a difference either?

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Let's do a mental experiment ... Does a border wall stop people who are already inside the USA? - SECOND

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Hey GSTRING!
If walls "don't work", why did Israel build a successful one?
If walls "don't work" why did Hungary build a successful one?

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
GSTRING, let's try a mental experiment ...

You claim that "walls don't work". That's a bit like saying that "physical barriers" don't work.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So if physical barriers "don't work" ... if the presence (or absence) of barriers such as rivers, mountains, deserts, or walls "don't work" ... let's try the opposite. Let's REMOVE those barriers! Let's build bridges and roads, along the very same routes that illegal migrants take to border-jump. Are you saying that bridges and roads wouldn't make a difference either?

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Quote:

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Hey GSTRING!
If walls "don't work", why did Israel build a successful one?
If walls "don't work" why did Hungary build a successful one?- SIGNY

Hey B-HOLE!
Your main mistake/deflection is you ask the wrong question. I already asked you the right one and you have ducked and dodged answering it like the dishonest poster you are.- GSTRING

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Do you think the $5 billion Trump wants will be effective - will it even finish a wall? No, of course not. It wouldn't even build the wall Hungary wanted at about a 10th the length.- GSTRING

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So do you want to build a $50 billion dollar wall that probably won't work? Did you see the graphic Trump posted of his "beautiful wall?" It was slats, metal slats that could easily be slid between...

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Quote:

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There are 2 choices with him posting this: either he doesn't care about a wall and is just using it to jack people up, or he really is that stupid and out of control. You win either way.- GSTRING

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Quote:

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GSTRING, let's try a mental experiment ...
You claim that "walls don't work". That's a bit like saying that "physical barriers" don't work.- SIGNY

No I didn't.- GSTRING

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Quote:

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For example, according to the Washington Office on Latin America (WOLA), an advocacy group for human rights, the number of illegal immigrants being “apprehended at the U.S. border is near its lowest level since the 1970s.” That is true. But what this statistic doesn’t show is that the number of illegal immigrants apprehended at the border steadily increased until 2000, and only began to decrease substantially in 2006 when the Secure Fence Act came into effect.

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Quote:

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Why do you lie so much?

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If you had a trillion dollars you could build a magnificent wall that would keep immigrants from crossing the border on foot if that was it's object. Of course they would just find another way in and that would be a trillion dollars wasted. Ever hear of the Maginot line? You should learn some history some time.-GSTRING

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Quote:

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So if physical barriers "don't work" ... if the presence (or absence) of barriers such as rivers, mountains, deserts, or walls "don't work" ... let's try the opposite. Let's REMOVE those barriers! Let's build bridges and roads, along the very same routes that illegal migrants take to border-jump. Are you saying that bridges and roads wouldn't make a difference either? - SIGNY

Cripes - you have gotten dumber by a factor of 10. Hanging out with 6ix too much maybe? Please - better arguments or I go back to ignoring you, and we all know you would die without the attention.- GSTRING

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

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Let's do a mental experiment ... Does a border wall stop people who are already inside the USA? - SECOND

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Hey SECOND, let's do a mental experiment: Let's deport all illegal aliens and don't control the border.

How well do you think THAT will work??

The reality is, you need both deportation AND border control. One doesn't work without the other. I mean, it seems so obvious that I shouldn't even have had to bring it up.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

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Hey GSTRING!
Hey B-HOLE!
Your main mistake/deflection is you ask the wrong question. I already asked you the right one and you have ducked and dodged answering it like the dishonest poster you are.- GSTRING

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If you asked that question you sure didn't do it in THIS thread! So, LINKS PLEASE.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
What length is Hungary's wall, and how much did it cost? I don't think you know so it sounds to me like you're just spouting nonsense. But - no, I don't think $5 billion will build a wall from sea to shining sea.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Ok, to be exact you said, not a few paras up (and I underlined the part of your post just so you would remember what you posted) that walls PROBABLY won't work.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I think that's an assumption contradicted by the very article that YOU LINKED< which said ... in part ...

Quote:

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For example, according to the Washington Office on Latin America (WOLA), an advocacy group for human rights, the number of illegal immigrants being “apprehended at the U.S. border is near its lowest level since the 1970s.” That is true. But what this statistic doesn’t show is that the number of illegal immigrants apprehended at the border steadily increased until 2000, and only began to decrease substantially in 2006 when the Secure Fence Act came into effect.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Secondly, "the Maginot line" was NOT A WALL.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND, it makes no sense to focus on deporting illegal aliens until the wall is built because they'll turn right around and re-cross into the USA. (Unless you're deporting ppl back to Honduras or Guatemala or China in which case the journey back is more daunting.)

It's a little bit like bailing a boat with a sieve ... not much good.

I hate to say it but in third case Trump is just way smarter than you.

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Governments can do two things at once, and the people who arrest Republican employers are different people than border patrol. Unsurprising that Trump does not arrest Republicans for hiring illegal aliens...- SECOND

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ICE is cracking down on employers of illegal aliens… for real
July 25, 2018

If you’re an employer who is in the habit of looking the other way when a job applicant can’t prove they are in the country legally, there’s a good chance that you received an unexpected visit from ICE over the past few months. In a recent press release from the agency, we learned that the second phase of a nationwide operation cracking down on employers of illegal aliens just concluded. ICE examined the records of more than 5,000 employers and wound up making a number of arrests. (ICE.gov)

See Also: It’s official. California moves up its primary

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s (ICE) Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) announced Tuesday the results of a two-phase nationwide operation in which I-9 audit notices were served to more than 5,200 businesses around the country since January. A notice of inspection (NOI) informs business owners that ICE is going to audit their hiring records to determine whether they are complying with existing law.

From July 16 to 20, the second phase of the operation, HSI served 2,738 NOIs and made 32 arrests. During the first phase of the operation, Jan. 29 to March 30, HSI served 2,540 NOIs and made 61 arrests…

While the agency routinely conducts worksite investigations to uphold federal law, HSI is currently carrying out its commitment to increase the number of I-9 audits in an effort to create a culture of compliance among employers, according to Benner.

HSI goes one to remind everyone that these are not “victimless crimes.” Illegal aliens who are allowed to work under such arrangements frequently do so using stolen identification, leading to a variety of headaches and financial loss to the identity theft victim. While some of the worst offenders among these employers are being prosecuted, the main goal of the department is to create a “culture of compliance” among employers across the country.
TRENDING:
Jonathan Haidt: How overparenting backfired on Americans

This is welcome news indeed and a subject which we’ve covered here extensively. It’s true that we need to continue to work to identify, locate and deport illegal aliens, but as long as they keep coming into the country at the same rate we’re really not gaining any ground. You need to shut down the magnet which attracts so many illegal aliens and that’s the possibility of obtaining American jobs. If that market dries up, the flow of illegals will do the same rapidly.

One other item of note from the ICE announcement is that they have succeeded in obtaining a preliminary injunction against portions of California’s AB450 bill which sought to impose fines on private employers for cooperating with ICE on investigations of illegal alien workers. It was a laughable bill to begin with because it had nothing to do with state or local law enforcement cooperating with ICE. It was restricting voluntary cooperation by private employers. Now, with the injunction in place, ICE is receiving improved cooperation from California employers in this regard.

Keep up the good work, ladies and gentlemen. This is how we’re going to see actual progress in the future.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

During the first phase of the operation, Jan. 29 to March 30, HSI served 2,540 NOIs and made 61 arrests…

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Clearly SECOND, NOTHING will satisfy that urge of yours to bitch and moan endlessly about Americans, Republicans, and Trump.

The moment one of your bitches is answered, you come up with another one ... sometimes one that contradicts the first! I mean, at one time you were bitching about the fact that Trump was enforcing laws against illegal immigrants. I know you were, and so do you, so don't even bother trying to say otherwise.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

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Hey GSTRING!
If walls "don't work", why did Israel build a successful one?
If walls "don't work" why did Hungary build a successful one?- SIGNY

Hey B-HOLE!
Your main mistake/deflection is you ask the wrong question. I already asked you the right one and you have ducked and dodged answering it like the dishonest poster you are.- GSTRING

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If you asked that question you sure didn't do it in THIS thread! So, LINKS PLEASE.

Quote:

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Do you think the $5 billion Trump wants will be effective - will it even finish a wall? No, of course not. It wouldn't even build the wall Hungary wanted at about a 10th the length.- GSTRING

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What length is Hungary's wall, and how much did it cost? I don't think you know so it sounds to me like you're just spouting nonsense. But - no, I don't think $5 billion will build a wall from sea to shining sea. As far as I can tell, tho, they could really use one in southeast Texas!

Quote:

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So do you want to build a $50 billion dollar wall that probably won't work? Did you see the graphic Trump posted of his "beautiful wall?" It was slats, metal slats that could easily be slid between...

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By a skinny five-year-old?

Quote:

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There are 2 choices with him posting this: either he doesn't care about a wall and is just using it to jack people up, or he really is that stupid and out of control. You win either way.- GSTRING

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I think he really does care about the wall, and there are places where it really makes sense to put one.

Quote:

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GSTRING, let's try a mental experiment ...
You claim that "walls don't work". That's a bit like saying that "physical barriers" don't work.- SIGNY

No I didn't.- GSTRING

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Ok, to be exact you said, not a few paras up (and I underlined the part of your post just so you would remember what you posted) that walls PROBABLY won't work. I think that's an assumption contradicted by the very article that YOU LINKED< which said ... in part ...

Quote:

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For example, according to the Washington Office on Latin America (WOLA), an advocacy group for human rights, the number of illegal immigrants being “apprehended at the U.S. border is near its lowest level since the 1970s.” That is true. But what this statistic doesn’t show is that the number of illegal immigrants apprehended at the border steadily increased until 2000, and only began to decrease substantially in 2006 when the Secure Fence Act came into effect.

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Quote:

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Why do you lie so much?

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You posted that you didn't say that walls wouldn't work, which was contradicted not only by your very own post by also the article that you yourself posted.

Quote:

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If you had a trillion dollars you could build a magnificent wall that would keep immigrants from crossing the border on foot if that was it's object. Of course they would just find another way in and that would be a trillion dollars wasted. Ever hear of the Maginot line? You should learn some history some time.-GSTRING

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First of all, they WOULDN'T just find "another way" in. Some very enterprising people with A LOT OF MONEY - LIKE DRUG SMUGGLERS - might dig some very fancy tunnels under the wall, but the typical illegal immigrant would be stymied by a reasonably well-built wall. Would it stop illegal immigration 100%? No, but it would reduce it by a large percentage, and that's good enough.

Secondly, "the Maginot line" was NOT A WALL. My god, son, you yourself could use a history lesson! It was a series of SEPARATED BUNKERS AND TRAPS at strategic points, meant to keep out tanks and heavy artillery, not people.

Here are some photos ...

Quote:

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So if physical barriers "don't work" ... if the presence (or absence) of barriers such as rivers, mountains, deserts, or walls "don't work" ... let's try the opposite. Let's REMOVE those barriers! Let's build bridges and roads, along the very same routes that illegal migrants take to border-jump. Are you saying that bridges and roads wouldn't make a difference either? - SIGNY

Cripes - you have gotten dumber by a factor of 10. Hanging out with 6ix too much maybe? Please - better arguments or I go back to ignoring you, and we all know you would die without the attention.- GSTRING

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Well, apparently you don't know how to use logic. What I did was take your assumption in the opposite direction ... if walls probably wouldn't work to reduce immigration, then bridges or roads wouldn't work to enhance it. Correct?

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Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Still entertaining to see Sigs bitch slap all the Trolls.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by second:

Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Clearly SECOND, NOTHING will satisfy that urge of yours to bitch and moan endlessly about Americans, Republicans, and Trump.

The moment one of your bitches is answered, you come up with another one ... sometimes one that contradicts the first! I mean, at one time you were bitching about the fact that Trump was enforcing laws against illegal immigrants. I know you were, and so do you, so don't even bother trying to say otherwise.

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I'm all for Trump enforcing the laws that already exist, but he is not doing more than a half-ass job of it. And he is picking and choosing which laws to ignore based on what is convenient for him. For example, the Constitution makes it very clear that only Congress can declare war, and yet Trump is making war all over the world without a Declaration of War. If he starts a war, or continues one, he needs Congress's approval. I don't see him asking Congress. He is not running his wars that way. It must be because his base would not approve of him asking permission.

The 2 centuries old War powers clause in the Constitution has somewhat less to do with the Wall than the 2 decades old asylum laws, which Trump is also trying to evade, ignore, or sneak around: www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-asylum-laws-what-to-know/ Trump won't obey the laws that limit him.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Quote:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

What war is Trump starting?

Everything you just explained about him could be said about both GWB and Obama, but I don't see any evidence that it's being applied today.

It's funny you're saying this while most of the left wing media is crying about him pulling out of two countries and cheering for more war.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Quote:

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Originally posted by second:
Government data suggest that in 2016 there were about 170,000 successful illegal border crossings outside of authorized border crossing points. That same year, the Department of Homeland Security estimates, 630,000 people overstayed visas. A perfect Trump Wall won't stop any of those 630,000.

Trump needs to concentrate much more of his attention on the 630,000 illegal aliens flying to the USA and not have tunnel vision that his biggest problem is the 170,000 aliens walking around the incomplete Wall into the USA.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by captaincrunch:
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trumps-border-wall-how-much-it-will-ac
tually-cost-according-to-a-statistician

As a staunch supporter of refugees and the American dream, I find most of the rhetoric behind the idea of the wall flatly un-American. However, no one with a brain can argue that we shouldn’t have border security.

The Trump administration wants to enforce border security with a combination of a physical wall and natural barriers that would protect the estimated 1,933 miles-long border between the United States and Mexico. Many different cost estimates have been thrown around, from as little as $8 billion to as much as $70 billion, with anywhere from $150 million per year to $750 million per year in maintenance.


As a statistician, I want to take a look at how much the wall is actually going to cost. Now, as with anything, there are unintended costs and benefits, and it is impossible to account for everything that could possibly be affected (trying to do so leads to cherry-picking what you will and won’t use). So, in order to give my estimated cost, I’m going to be transparent with every piece of information I give.

Let’s get started.

In 1993, President Bill Clinton mandated the construction of a 14 miles-long wall between San Diego, California and Tijuana, Mexico to stem the flow of illegal immigrants and drugs across our border. Then, in 2006, the Secure Fence Act under President George W. Bush authorized the construction of physical barriers (a wall and fences) along another 654 miles. About 130 miles of the border without a physical barrier has natural barriers.

So really we are talking about roughly 1,150 miles. If you drive at 60 miles per hour, that would take you about 19 hours as the eagle flies.

Alright, now let’s get out our calculators.

Construction

Size of the wall: 1,150 miles long; 40 feet high; 10 feet deep into the ground; 1 foot wide

Total volume of material: 11.2 million cubic yards

Materials: Approximately $8.7 billion in concrete (97 percent of the materials); approximately $3.6 billion in steel (3 percent of the materials)

Labor: Approximately $12.3 billion (given the labor costs on the original 654 miles of barriers we can assume a conservative 1:1 ratio of materials to labor)

Land acquisition: About 60 percent of the border is privately owned land. While the federal government has the power to take privately owned property for public purposes, it must provide “just compensation.” Based on previous purchases from the 2006-2009 wall construction, the cost at most would be $300,000 per mile acquired, or approximately $200 million altogether.

In total, the actual physical cost of the wall would be about $25 billion. That sounds like a ton of money. But it isn’t just one person paying for it – the entirety of the U.S. taxpayer base would collectively foot the bill.

To put that in perspective, we could give 50,000 small businesses $500,000 each to get their businesses up and running. That would be pretty incredible. On the other hand, we spend a lot of money on some absolutely ridiculous things. The taxpayer-funded National Science Foundation gave almost $200,000 to a researcher to study the gambling habits of monkeys. What was the result? Nonsensical animal testing and suffering so we could find out that monkeys like to gamble. Come on.

I could easily come up with $25 billion dollars in our federal budget that are wasted each year. No problem.

Now, I’ve estimated the cost of the wall to be about $25 billion, but many of the estimates given by other sources include many other factors: how many more or fewer border agents are needed; reduction of “virtual” walls; on-going maintenance; economic costs to border towns; reductions in human trafficking and illegal immigration; reduction in drug trafficking; etc.

There are so many factors that “might increase” or “might decrease” that as a statistician, I can tell you it is empirically impossible to calculate all of the unintended consequences – good or bad – that the wall might cause. Anyone saying otherwise is flat out wrong.

For example, according to the Washington Office on Latin America (WOLA), an advocacy group for human rights, the number of illegal immigrants being “apprehended at the U.S. border is near its lowest level since the 1970s.” That is true. But what this statistic doesn’t show is that the number of illegal immigrants apprehended at the border steadily increased until 2000, and only began to decrease substantially in 2006 when the Secure Fence Act came into effect.

Here’s another misconception. According to a 2015 report by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, 95 percent of drugs enter the United States via container ships or other vessels. So in reality, a wall is going to do absolutely nothing to stop drug trafficking.

One single number never tells the whole story. I could come up with multiple caveats to anyone’s calculations (including my own).

When I was 14 years old, my father and I went to Ellis Island. My grandmother’s signature, faded but still clear, “Belle Mack” was right there next to the thousands of others who had fled their own countries to come to America and start a new life. Immigration is as much a part of America as the flag, but in order to protect that dream and those rights, all new immigrants’ names must be written down, just like my grandmother’s.

The real question the American public should be asking isn’t how much is the wall going to cost, but rather what is the best way to secure our borders and reduce illegal activity like human and drug trafficking, while at the same time promoting the American dream and helping those who are fleeing for their lives?

The question shouldn’t be about the dollar cost of the wall. It should be about the validity of the wall.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

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Originally posted by second:
Government data suggest that in 2016 there were about 170,000 successful illegal border crossings outside of authorized border crossing points. That same year, the Department of Homeland Security estimates, 630,000 people overstayed visas. A perfect Trump Wall won't stop any of those 630,000.

Trump needs to concentrate much more of his attention on the 630,000 illegal aliens flying to the USA and not have tunnel vision that his biggest problem is the 170,000 aliens walking around the incomplete Wall into the USA.

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For 2018 they are averaging 2,100 apprehensions per day, about 750,000 for the year.

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Quote:

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699,350 new voters in exchange for Trump legalizing the DACA children. If Trump makes that deal, everybody wins.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by second:

Quote:

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Originally posted by captaincrunch:

The question shouldn’t be about the dollar cost of the wall. It should be about the validity of the wall.

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We can speculate what Trump voters will get from a Wall: restful sleep knowing that Trump is protecting them. We know what the Democrats will get, if they hold firm until they get something of value equal to the cost of the Wall: 699,350 new voters in exchange for Trump legalizing the DACA children. If Trump makes that deal, everybody wins.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_Action_for_Childhood_Arrivals#P
roposed_legislative_responses_to_the_DACA_repeal

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

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Originally posted by second:
Government data suggest that in 2016 there were about 170,000 successful illegal border crossings outside of authorized border crossing points. That same year, the Department of Homeland Security estimates, 630,000 people overstayed visas. A perfect Trump Wall won't stop any of those 630,000.

Trump needs to concentrate much more of his attention on the 630,000 illegal aliens flying to the USA and not have tunnel vision that his biggest problem is the 170,000 aliens walking around the incomplete Wall into the USA.

---

For 2018 they are averaging 2,100 apprehensions per day, about 750,000 for the year.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by second:

Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

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Originally posted by second:
Government data suggest that in 2016 there were about 170,000 successful illegal border crossings outside of authorized border crossing points. That same year, the Department of Homeland Security estimates, 630,000 people overstayed visas. A perfect Trump Wall won't stop any of those 630,000.

Trump needs to concentrate much more of his attention on the 630,000 illegal aliens flying to the USA and not have tunnel vision that his biggest problem is the 170,000 aliens walking around the incomplete Wall into the USA.

---

For 2018 they are averaging 2,100 apprehensions per day, about 750,000 for the year.

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If 750,000 are caught at the border and 170,000 sneak across, the existing border is 81.5% effective at stopping people. That is 170/(170 + 750) = 0.18478260869; 1.0 - .184782 = .815 = 81.5%

But the Southern Border Security is 0.0% effective at stopping illegal aliens who fly into the USA and overstay their visas. That's 630,000 illegal aliens per year with expired visas and only 170,000 who sneak in on foot. Trump needs to give 630,000 - 170,000 = 460,000 times more attention to chasing expired visas, but he is not doing it.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Originally posted by second:

Quote:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

What war is Trump starting?

Everything you just explained about him could be said about both GWB and Obama, but I don't see any evidence that it's being applied today.

It's funny you're saying this while most of the left wing media is crying about him pulling out of two countries and cheering for more war.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

Trump was talking about "Fire and Fury" against North Korea, but that came to nothing. He pulled out of a nuclear deal with Iran, but that also came to nothing. He pretends he is a Valiant Warrior, but he isn't. Maybe someday his threats won't be so empty, but no new wars so far, which is very fine with me. In January I expect he will make violent threats against Congressional Democrats because of the Trump Wall, but that will come to nothing, too, if his past behavior continues.

I saw this headline: "Trump Wants Out of Syria and Afghanistan. Take the Deal." I don’t care if Trump is an idiot or not. If he’s offering the chance to get the hell out of Syria and Afghanistan, tell him he’s a genius and take the deal.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Quote:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

Quote:

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Originally posted by second:

Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

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Originally posted by second:
Government data suggest that in 2016 there were about 170,000 successful illegal border crossings outside of authorized border crossing points. That same year, the Department of Homeland Security estimates, 630,000 people overstayed visas. A perfect Trump Wall won't stop any of those 630,000.

Trump needs to concentrate much more of his attention on the 630,000 illegal aliens flying to the USA and not have tunnel vision that his biggest problem is the 170,000 aliens walking around the incomplete Wall into the USA.

---

For 2018 they are averaging 2,100 apprehensions per day, about 750,000 for the year.

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If 750,000 are caught at the border and 170,000 sneak across, the existing border is 81.5% effective at stopping people. That is 170/(170 + 750) = 0.18478260869; 1.0 - .184782 = .815 = 81.5%

But the Southern Border Security is 0.0% effective at stopping illegal aliens who fly into the USA and overstay their visas. That's 630,000 illegal aliens per year with expired visas and only 170,000 who sneak in on foot. Trump needs to give 630,000 - 170,000 = 460,000 times more attention to chasing expired visas, but he is not doing it.

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Good point. We should probably stop giving out visas.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

2016 was under....wait for it....Obama.
We should just stop electing Democrats, because we know they won't enforce the Law.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND, it makes no sense to focus on deporting illegal aliens until the wall is built because they'll turn right around and re-cross into the USA. (Unless you're deporting ppl back to Honduras or Guatemala or China in which case the journey back is more daunting.)

It's a little bit like bailing a boat with a sieve ... not much good.

I hate to say it but in thid case Trump is just way smarter than you.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
What I assume will happen is that a part of the wall will be built, and then when (some) migrants find their way around it, another part will be built. But records show that when the EASY routes are closed off, illegal entry does decrease.

There are inhospitable areas of the border which few people dare to cross, those may not need walls; but I would keep that option open.

I applaud Trump for making such an issue about illegal immigration. He has made it obvious that our laws and policies - such as "catch and release" - are STUPID, and are being taken advantage of by people who have no intention of entering legally.

Here are some of the polices and laws that I find stupid:

Re-defining the nature of "political asylum" ... which originally meant My government is out to get me/my group to mean Life is tough in my country and I don't want to live there anymore.

Allowing people who have crossed illegally to request asylum.

Taking people into custody or - worse - letting them loose in the USA while their (mostly bogus) asylum claims are being processed.

HOLDING illegal entrants in custody for any more time necessary than to photo, fingerprint, and (maybe) take DNA samples and deport them.

Allowing birthright citizenship. What a stupid misapplication of the 14th Amendment.

Having something like 120 visa categories, and then not being able to track these visa holders and deport them ASAP when they overstay. Visiting here is a privilege, not a right. The easiest way to track them is when they go to a bank.

H1B/ H2B visas, and green cards. The only reason why H1B/H2B visas exist isn't because there's a "shortage of labor" here in the USA, it is (literally) because the employers want to undercut their labor costs.

NOT building a wall. Areas where there is a lot of traffic and not much natural barrier ... areas where illegal crossings are the highest ... should have a wall.


*****

I'm sure more thoughts will come to me, given time.

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Trump's invisible wall: how his 2018 immigration policies built a barrier

- Little has been done to fulfil Trump’s promise of a border wall, but behind the scenes, his administration continues to enact changes to make immigration more difficult
Amanda Holpuch Dec 2018 16.16 EST


While Donald Trump celebrated the supreme court decision to uphold his travel ban and Americans prepared to protest against his family separation policy this summer, a US immigration agency quietly shared a memo that set off alarms for immigration activists and attorneys.

The memo was wonky and complicated. The policy it announced wouldn’t come into effect for months. And while it represented a fundamental change in how a key immigration agency operates, it slipped past most people’s radar, joining a flurry of quiet policy changes that have made legal and illegal immigration to the US more difficult without many noticing.

“It is breathtaking, how sweeping and deep the policy and legal changes are that this administration has ushered in within a period of just two years,” Gregory Chen, director of government relations for the American Immigration Lawyers Association (AILA), told the Guardian.

These changes hit every angle of the immigration system, from assailing humanitarian protections with the family separation policy to restricting workers travelling on the so-called “high-skilled” H-1B visa with a plan to revoke their spouses’ work permits.

“While the border wall is what this president talks about so much to the media, behind the scenes his administration is constructing all sorts of policies that are erecting an invisible wall,” Chen said.

To glimpse the sheer scale of these efforts, consider the final week of November.

The US government closed the busiest land border crossing in the world for five hours after dozens of Central Americans rushed the border.

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) asked the military to keep troops at the border through January, after the military had already spent $72m to send nearly 6,000 to the border.

DHS also asked civilian police to be sent to the border.

A federal judge refused the US government’s request to enforce an asylum ban he said the government had not proved was legal.

Another judge ruled the US government could not force states and cities known as “sanctuary cities” to cooperate with federal immigration authorities to receive federal funding.

Trump tweeted a lie about the federal assistance undocumented immigrants receive.

Baltimore sued the Trump administration over a proposed immigration rule.

The US health department’s internal watchdog said it was concerned staff at a teen migrant shelter had not been adequately vetted.

Outside of Trump administration rumblings in courts and the Capitol, a Pew Research report released that week showed the number of undocumented immigrants in the US was at the lowest level since 2004.

And a nurse deported to Mexico in 2017 returned to the US after getting a visa to enter the US legally.

Anu Joshi, the New York Immigration Coalition’s senior director of immigrant rights and policy, said because so many of these changes are happening administratively, there is little accountability and oversight.

“The thing that is most striking is how almost surgical in precision they’ve been with making these administrative and policy level changes that really, really impact for the negative people’s [illegal immigrants'] lives,” Joshi said.

These changes are often too bureaucratic for the average American, leaving immigration advocates and attorneys struggling to drum up interest or outrage from the public.

This is what happened with the memo issued in June during the family separation debacle. It said in October US Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) would greatly expand its ability to order people to appear in court if their applications for immigration relief – such as green cards or humanitarian visas – were denied.

Combined with other new directives at USCIS, this means a human trafficking victim who is missing a document in their visa application could not only be denied the visa, but they may also be put in deportation proceedings .

“It [the memo] really didn’t get very much coverage because there are so many other things happening, but that is going to have a profound impact on people’s ability to seek safety in this country,” Joshi said.

USCIS spokesman, Michael Bars, said people applying for such visas can still challenge the agency’s decision to deny an application and emphasized that it relies on trained officers to rule on each individual case.

“Ensuring that individuals who are subject to removal are placed in proceedings is fidelity to the law,” Bars said. “Each year, immigration benefits are attainable for many law-abiding individuals legitimately seeking greater opportunity, prosperity, and security as newly entrusted members of society, and to this end USCIS takes great pride and helping these dreams become a reality.”

For people such as Joshi who work on the frontlines of immigration activism and law, the whirlwind of changes has inspired constant legal action.

One day after the White House announced it would bar people from seeking asylum outside designated ports of entry, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) filed a lawsuit against the ban.

One month before the Trump administration formally announced its zero-tolerance policy that made mass family separations possible, ACLU lawyers had brought a lawsuit on behalf of at least 429 parents who alleged separations had already happened.

In November, a court ruled the Trump administration must continue a program for undocumented people who came to the US as children, known as Dreamers, which allows them to go to college and work temporarily in the US. That case is almost guaranteed to head to the supreme court, more than a year after the Trump administration said it was ending the program.

Joshi cautioned that issues that end up at the supreme court will be determined by nine justices that include two Trump appointees. “I think the courts are a necessary, temporary, protective measure, but I don’t think we can rely on the courts to save us,” Joshi said.

The revised travel ban, after all, was held up by the supreme court in June despite being one of two immigration issues that brought Americans nationwide to the street in protest. The other issue that inspired such outrage, family separations, could happen again, as the Trump administration has floated reviving the practice in a different form.

And while Trump is heading into the new year without funding for his border wall despite his demands having shutdown 25% of the US government over the holiday period, there are no indications the pile of policies shaping the invisible wall will slow.

Chen of AILA said: “The administration’s train is just getting out of the train station and is moving at a rapid clip at full steam ahead.”

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Massive New Migrant Caravan To Leave Honduras; Overloaded El Paso Faces Imminent "Crisis"

A new, larger migrant caravan is set to leave Honduras on Jan. 15 according to Spanish-language media and migrant rights advocates.

"They say they are even bigger and stronger than the last caravan," according to Irma Garrido of migrant advocacy group Reactiva Tijuana Foundation.

News of the new caravan comes as thousands of Central American migrants from an October caravan remain stranded at various cities along the US-Mexico border as they face wait times of up to several months for the United States to process their asylum requests. What's more, if migrants cannot justify their asylum claims, they may be denied.

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Garrido said this new, larger caravan will probably be joined by more people in El Salvador and in Guatemala, but she said they don’t plan on coming straight to the Tijuana-San Diego border, where resources are already stretched nearly to a breaking point. -LA Times

"They will stay in the south of Mexico in Chiapas and Oaxaca. Their aim is to request work there," said Garrido.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
What I assume will happen is that a part of the wall will be built, and then when (some) migrants find their way around it, another part will be built. But records show that when the EASY routes are closed off, illegal entry does decrease.

There are inhospitable areas of the border which few people dare to cross, those may not need walls; but I would keep that option open.

I applaud Trump for making such an issue about illegal immigration. He has made it obvious that our laws and policies - such as "catch and release" - are STUPID, and are being taken advantage of by people who have no intention of entering legally.

Here are some of the polices and laws that I find stupid:

Re-defining the nature of "political asylum" ... which originally meant My government is out to get me/my group to mean Life is tough in my country and I don't want to live there anymore.

Allowing people who have crossed illegally to request asylum.

Taking people into custody or - worse - letting them loose in the USA while their (mostly bogus) asylum claims are being processed.

HOLDING illegal entrants in custody for any more time necessary than to photo, fingerprint, and (maybe) take DNA samples and deport them.

Allowing birthright citizenship. What a stupid misapplication of the 14th Amendment.

Having something like 120 visa categories, and then not being able to track these visa holders and deport them ASAP when they overstay. Visiting here is a privilege, not a right. The easiest way to track them is when they go to a bank.

H1B/ H2B visas, and green cards. The only reason why H1B/H2B visas exist isn't because there's a "shortage of labor" here in the USA, it is (literally) because the employers want to undercut their labor costs.

NOT building a wall. Areas where there is a lot of traffic and not much natural barrier ... areas where illegal crossings are the highest ... should have a wall.


*****

I'm sure more thoughts will come to me, given time.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

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Trump's invisible wall: how his 2018 immigration policies built a barrier

- Little has been done to fulfil Trump’s promise of a border wall, but behind the scenes, his administration continues to enact changes to make immigration more difficult
Amanda Holpuch Dec 2018 16.16 EST


While Donald Trump celebrated the supreme court decision to uphold his travel ban and Americans prepared to protest against his family separation policy this summer, a US immigration agency quietly shared a memo that set off alarms for immigration activists and attorneys.

The memo was wonky and complicated. The policy it announced wouldn’t come into effect for months. And while it represented a fundamental change in how a key immigration agency operates, it slipped past most people’s radar, joining a flurry of quiet policy changes that have made legal and illegal immigration to the US more difficult without many noticing.

“It is breathtaking, how sweeping and deep the policy and legal changes are that this administration has ushered in within a period of just two years,” Gregory Chen, director of government relations for the American Immigration Lawyers Association (AILA), told the Guardian.

These changes hit every angle of the immigration system, from assailing humanitarian protections with the family separation policy to restricting workers travelling on the so-called “high-skilled” H-1B visa with a plan to revoke their spouses’ work permits.

“While the border wall is what this president talks about so much to the media, behind the scenes his administration is constructing all sorts of policies that are erecting an invisible wall,” Chen said.

To glimpse the sheer scale of these efforts, consider the final week of November.

The US government closed the busiest land border crossing in the world for five hours after dozens of Central Americans rushed the border.

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) asked the military to keep troops at the border through January, after the military had already spent $72m to send nearly 6,000 to the border.

DHS also asked civilian police to be sent to the border.

A federal judge refused the US government’s request to enforce an asylum ban he said the government had not proved was legal.

Another judge ruled the US government could not force states and cities known as “sanctuary cities” to cooperate with federal immigration authorities to receive federal funding.

Trump tweeted a lie about the federal assistance undocumented immigrants receive.

Baltimore sued the Trump administration over a proposed immigration rule.

The US health department’s internal watchdog said it was concerned staff at a teen migrant shelter had not been adequately vetted.

Outside of Trump administration rumblings in courts and the Capitol, a Pew Research report released that week showed the number of undocumented immigrants in the US was at the lowest level since 2004.

And a nurse deported to Mexico in 2017 returned to the US after getting a visa to enter the US legally.

Anu Joshi, the New York Immigration Coalition’s senior director of immigrant rights and policy, said because so many of these changes are happening administratively, there is little accountability and oversight.

“The thing that is most striking is how almost surgical in precision they’ve been with making these administrative and policy level changes that really, really impact for the negative people’s [illegal immigrants'] lives,” Joshi said.

These changes are often too bureaucratic for the average American, leaving immigration advocates and attorneys struggling to drum up interest or outrage from the public.

This is what happened with the memo issued in June during the family separation debacle. It said in October US Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) would greatly expand its ability to order people to appear in court if their applications for immigration relief – such as green cards or humanitarian visas – were denied.

Combined with other new directives at USCIS, this means a human trafficking victim who is missing a document in their visa application could not only be denied the visa, but they may also be put in deportation proceedings .

“It [the memo] really didn’t get very much coverage because there are so many other things happening, but that is going to have a profound impact on people’s ability to seek safety in this country,” Joshi said.

USCIS spokesman, Michael Bars, said people applying for such visas can still challenge the agency’s decision to deny an application and emphasized that it relies on trained officers to rule on each individual case.

“Ensuring that individuals who are subject to removal are placed in proceedings is fidelity to the law,” Bars said. “Each year, immigration benefits are attainable for many law-abiding individuals legitimately seeking greater opportunity, prosperity, and security as newly entrusted members of society, and to this end USCIS takes great pride and helping these dreams become a reality.”

For people such as Joshi who work on the frontlines of immigration activism and law, the whirlwind of changes has inspired constant legal action.

One day after the White House announced it would bar people from seeking asylum outside designated ports of entry, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) filed a lawsuit against the ban.

One month before the Trump administration formally announced its zero-tolerance policy that made mass family separations possible, ACLU lawyers had brought a lawsuit on behalf of at least 429 parents who alleged separations had already happened.

In November, a court ruled the Trump administration must continue a program for undocumented people who came to the US as children, known as Dreamers, which allows them to go to college and work temporarily in the US. That case is almost guaranteed to head to the supreme court, more than a year after the Trump administration said it was ending the program.

Joshi cautioned that issues that end up at the supreme court will be determined by nine justices that include two Trump appointees. “I think the courts are a necessary, temporary, protective measure, but I don’t think we can rely on the courts to save us,” Joshi said.

The revised travel ban, after all, was held up by the supreme court in June despite being one of two immigration issues that brought Americans nationwide to the street in protest. The other issue that inspired such outrage, family separations, could happen again, as the Trump administration has floated reviving the practice in a different form.

And while Trump is heading into the new year without funding for his border wall despite his demands having shutdown 25% of the US government over the holiday period, there are no indications the pile of policies shaping the invisible wall will slow.

Chen of AILA said: “The administration’s train is just getting out of the train station and is moving at a rapid clip at full steam ahead.”

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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/25/trump-wall-immigration
-policies-mexico-border

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Texas Lt Governor says only 200 miles of Border Wall needed in TX.
From Brownsville to Falcon Lake.

He is also a big supporter of Trump.



Wikipedia says there are 48 legal crossings on the Mexico land Border.
Ferry - 1 in TX.
Railroad - 8. 2 in CA, 1 in AZ, 5 in TX.

Road: 50. 9 in CA, 9 in AZ, 3 in NM, 29 in TX.
Not sure why the numbers don't add up. Maybe Libtard Wiki used Libtard Maths for cyphering, or Wiki is not well versed in American English.


CA has 140 miles of Border.
AZ has 373 miles.
NM has 180 miles.
TX has 1,241 miles.

Total 1,934 miles.

If 1,040 miles of Texas Border really doesn't need a Wall, and 14 miles in CA already has one, that leaves 880 miles.
Not sure where that 130 miles of natural barrier are located. But apparently not along this 200 mile stretch in TX.
Of the 654 miles already built under Bush, if 200 were already in TX, then about 450 are elsewhere.
So 450 miles of existing Wall, plus 130 miles of natural barrier, subtracted from 880 miles, leaves only 300 miles of Wall needed. If that 1,000 miles in TX is really not needed.

In NM, 180 miles with 3 crossings averages 60 miles between. And AZ with 373 miles and 9 crossings averages 42 miles between. That first kid who died crossed at a point 80 minutes away from the nearest Border Unit, which means the others are closer together.
I'll look at that data closer.


The 2006 Secure Fence Act, compromised in 2007 by Kay Bailey Hutchinson so that it wouldn't be built.
1. 20 mile fence, centered on Tecate CA.
2. Fence, from 10 miles west of Calexico CA to 5 miles east of Douglas AZ.
3. From 5 miles west of Columbus NM to 10 miles east of El Paso TX.
4. From 5 miles northwest of Del Rio TX to 5 miles southeast of Eagle Pass TX.
5. From 15 miles northwest of Laredo TX to Brownsville TX Port of Entry.

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A local San Diego television station said on Thursday that CNN invited them to provide a "local view" of the existing wall at the US-Mexico border, only to cancel after past reports from the station showed that the wall is an effective method of combating illegal immigration.

"Thursday morning, CNN called the KUSI Newsroom asking if one of our reporters could give them a local view of the debate surrounding the border wall and government shutdown," begins a report by local San Diego station KUSI.

"KUSI offered our own Dan Plante, who has reported dozens of times on the border, including one story from 2016 that was retweeted by former Speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich, and posted on DrudgeReport.com," the report continues.

"We believe CNN declined a report from KUSI because we informed them that most Border Patrol Agents we have spoken to told us the barrier does in fact work," it concludes. "We have continuously been told by Border Patrol Agents that the barrier along the Southern border helps prevent illegal entries, drugs, and weapons from entering the United States, and the numbers prove it."

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Every interview with ANYbody in ICE at the southern border, from Texas to California, has said: Barriers work. As much as CNN (with Trump Derangement Syndrome) want to hide that from you ...

Quote:

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A local San Diego television station said on Thursday that CNN invited them to provide a "local view" of the existing wall at the US-Mexico border, only to cancel after past reports from the station showed that the wall is an effective method of combating illegal immigration.

"Thursday morning, CNN called the KUSI Newsroom asking if one of our reporters could give them a local view of the debate surrounding the border wall and government shutdown," begins a report by local San Diego station KUSI.

"KUSI offered our own Dan Plante, who has reported dozens of times on the border, including one story from 2016 that was retweeted by former Speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich, and posted on DrudgeReport.com," the report continues.

"We believe CNN declined a report from KUSI because we informed them that most Border Patrol Agents we have spoken to told us the barrier does in fact work," it concludes. "We have continuously been told by Border Patrol Agents that the barrier along the Southern border helps prevent illegal entries, drugs, and weapons from entering the United States, and the numbers prove it."

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.... the fact is that barriers work. It's even been reported on NPR, when they interviewed a person from ICE who stated quite plainly that in the San Diego area where he worked, it didn't matter HOW MANY agents they had n the border, they didn't even begin to get control of the migrant flow until a Barrier was built. And HIS suggestion was to extend the barrier eastward, into the badlands, so his agents wouldn't have to chase people thru the washes and canyons, putting everyone at risk (including the migrants).

But if facts don't convince you, then try a mental experiment: Imagine- how many migrants currently on the Tijuana side of the border would be in Tijuana today, if there was no barrier?

Or better yet, if you really believe that "walls don't work" make YOUR walls ineffective: Just leave your apartment or house doors unlocked. In fact, OPEN your doors and leave them open indefinitely, and see how well "No walls" works.



*****

I consider this a pointless discussion. The people here who are anti-Trump would disagree with "The sun rises in the east" if Trump said it. They're just disagreeing because they're ideologically possessed, and therefore blinded to reality. I disagree with many of Trump's policies, but in this case, he's correct. BUILD A BARRIER, especially

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