Quote:

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You still haven't come close to explaining how getting the caravan to the border before the election makes any sense for Dems.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by second:
All he does is keep on talking, talking, talking to pander to the fears of voters like 1kiki and Signym. When will he stop talking and finish building that Wall?
But I don't believe Trump will give the orders. He will simply keep on talking, talking, talking to pander to the fears of voters like 1kiki and Signym.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by second:
As a temporary expediency in the areas where there is no Texas/Mexico Wall, I think Trump needs to use his troops. He has already started to move a few toward the border, too few. He has not sent nearly enough troops to substitute for his Wall. The logic of the situation is that Trump needs to tell his troops to stand between any illegal aliens that approach the border and protect Americans. But I don't believe Trump will give the orders. He will simply keep on talking, talking, talking to pander to the fears of voters like 1kiki and Signym.

Trump has 1,347,106 active troops. Why has he not ordered all of them to the Texas/Mexico border? Why does Trump not give the order?

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Quote:

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The Posse Comitatus Act, which passed after the Civil War to keep federal troops from policing the South, limits federal troops’ deployment on U.S. soil and forbids using them to enforce domestic laws.
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/immigration/sd-me-military-bo
rder-20180403-story.html

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Quote:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

Quote:

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Originally posted by JO753:

Quote:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Is anybody else getting tired of being played yet?...

This is a reality show...

I suspect it could also be Trump himself that is funding this...


This whole fucking thing is so ridiculous. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if this is exactly how it goes down.

---

I agree with most uv your post. The only exeption iz that I'm sure its Trump or hiz puppet master running it. It duznt take much money, so I think they will be able to keep their fingerprints off uv it.

---

To you and me it would be a ton of money. To people like Second, assuming he actually has money, it wouldn't be all that much.

There are over 300,000 people in this country that wouldn't have any problem funding this.

I'm going to laugh if this ends up being Joey Salad's best (or worst) youtube "prank" of all time.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, you get a large number of people together where tensions are running high, crank it up to a fever pitch, hire a few snipers to shoot a number of people, and blame the fall guy. It's not like it hasn't been done before.

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Quote:

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It was always very telling that you had so much outrage and bitterness towards Ukrainians who wanted to govern themselves...

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Quote:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Sure thing. I'll get on my Batphone and give him a call.

Let you know what he says as soon as I've got the 411.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Quote:

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ISLA, Mexico – Thousands of migrants set out early on Sunday from this city of pineapple farms in the Gulf Coast state of Veracruz, but signs of division and frustration are emerging as the large group tries to get to the U.S.-Mexico border in the face of opposition from President Donald Trump and a dangerous trek ahead.

Debate over how far to travel each day – something decided at a nightly assembly – is among the issues that divide caravan migrants who are still frustrated on being misled over the weekend by promises of buses being provided to take them to Mexico City. The buses never materialized.

On Sunday, many migrants hesitated upon hitting the main highway, which transits an area rife with organized crime activities.

“It’s difficult because of the fear you feel, the uneasiness about it,” said Brian Delarta, 30, a Honduran heading north with his wife and two children, ages 6 and 3.

Like many, he tried to flag down a ride rather than walk a narrow, two-lane high with no shoulder into an area known as Tierra Blanca.

“We’re walking with fear,” he said. “That’s why we’re sticking together, staying united.”

Caravans have become attractive for migrants attempting to transit Mexico safely. But disunity surfaced on Saturday as the caravan splintered with more than half the group showing haste to reach the U.S. border, even if it meant going alone and abandoning the watchful eye of human rights observers and international organizations.

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The presence of such organizations is viewed as preventing crimes such as kidnap, rape and extortion from being committed against the large group of migrants. It’s also dissuaded police and immigration officials from cracking down on them.

More than 5,000 migrants are reportedly moving through southern Mexico via caravan or in smaller groups, according to Mexico’s Interior Ministry estimates. The ministry said Saturday that 2,793 migrants have requested asylum in Mexico and about 500 have asked for help returning to their home countries.

More than half the participants Saturday pushed on toward the cities of Córdoba and Puebla – and even Mexico City – rather than rest and regroup in Isla, which is in the state of Veracruz. Participants impatient at the slow pace of progress continued traveling northward, are staying with the whatever vehicle they were traveling on to its final destination, according to migrants interviewed in Isla.

Tension boiled over on Friday night and Saturday morning in connection with broken promises from the Veracruz state government

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Quote:

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to bus the migrants to Mexico City, leaving them to walk through dangerous towns and rural areas. In a series of tweets on Sunday, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights said it “was deeply dismayed due to the lack of protection” for migrants caused by the Veracruz state government offering Friday to bus the caravan to Mexico City – only to renege after the caravan participants had woken early and lined up for transportation that never arrived.

“This cancellation is having the result of fragmenting the caravan, whose unity was it main form of protection. A large number of people in the caravan are not located. … People are desperately climbing into private pickups. It’s not known if they belong to organized crime.”

The UN’s Twitter thread described Veracruz as “a state in which … it is reported in a regular manner that migrants are kidnapped and disappeared, often ending up in human trafficking.”

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On Friday evening, governor of Veracruz offered 160 buses to take the caravan to Mexico City, saying his state had many migrants already “begging for money in the streets” and calling it “a serious social problem and we don’t want it to increase.”

Gov. Miguel Ángel Yunes Linares reneged later, saying Mexico City was suffering water shortages and unprepared to receive so many migrants – something denied by people familiar with the preparations there, who say everything was ready.

“We were all ready to go,” said Melvin Serrano, 22, a Honduras native. “But the coordinators said the buses [on Saturday morning] weren’t coming and lot of people got frustrated and decided to move on ahead of us. They no longer believe in the leaders here. Because they’ve said twice that we were going to take buses and we end up walking.”

The caravan has covered more than 800 miles since leaving San Pedro Sula, Honduras, Oct. 12. At least three more smaller caravans have formed since their departure, seeing safety in numbers and a way to avoid paying human smugglers high fees for taking them to the United States.

But the caravan is showing signs of fraying – beset by sore feet, illnesses such as coughs and colds and, now, disunity. It comes as they climb into the central valley of Mexico, where the altitude tops 7,000 feet and temperatures drop at night – potentially leaving a population carrying few clothes exposed to the elements.

“The caravan has practically divided into two parts, two groups,” said Víctor Rosales, an El Salvador native pushing a stroller carrying his two-year-old son out of Isla toward the main highway north.

“We’ve been advancing pretty slowly. There are a lot of people traveling with children and there are people going on their own who want to advance much more quickly,” said the 31-year-old Rosales. “The majority of families who brought children stayed here.

”Participants say caravans form spontaneously in Central America. A migrants’ advocacy organization Pueblo Sin Fronterau has “accompanied” the caravan since its arrival in Mexico, helping coordinate the caravan’s path through Mexico and offering tips for taking a risky road.

Some 2,000 migrants spent the night in Isla, 300 miles southeast of Mexico City, according to Pueblo Sin Frontera, which is assisting the caravan. Another 1,000 migrants slept in a city further up the road called Loma Bonita and 1,500 made it to Puebla, just to the southeast of Mexico City.

Some media outlets have reported some caravan participants already arriving in Mexico City, where the local government has turned a sports park into a shelter for more than 5,000 people.

An official with a Mexico City effort known as “Humanitarian Bridge” to support caravan participants as they advance toward the national capital, said the idea was to provide the migrants an incentive to stay put in Mexico. The capital, the official said, offered more opportunities for migrants.

The Mexican government has offered caravan participants temporary work visas, health benefits and the opportunity to enroll their children in school. Many caravan participants declined the offer, saying their ultimate destination is the United States and the opportunity to earn dollars.

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Trump rails against caravan

Meanwhile, Trump continues to rail against the caravan during midterm campaign rallies around the country leading up to Tuesday’s midterm elections, saying the migrants will not enter the United States. He’s also promised to send up to 15,000 troops to the border to help the U.S. Border Patrol secure the border.

“When you look at that caravan coming up, that’s not what we want,” he told a crowd of supporters in Pensacola, Fla., on Saturday night. “That’s not for us folks. Not for us.”

“We want people to come through our strong borders but they have to come in legally,” he said. “They have to come in absolutely through a process and they have to come in through merit.”

“We are determined to secure the southern border,” Secretary of State Mike Pompeo told CBS’s Face the Nation host John Dickerson on Sunday.

Migrants themselves remain just as determined to get to the U.S. border.

“We’re thinking positive,” said Melvin Serrano, 22, a Honduran, who joined to caravan the restaurant he was working at closed due to extortion demands. “We know it’s going to be complicated. It’s not going to be easy. But if we can arrive as a caravan, maybe they’ll let us through. We’ve crossed two borders so far,” he said.

Both Guatemala and Mexico tried to impede the caravan at certain points, but to little avail.

Other caravans continue forming in Central America as people flee poverty and violence afflicting three of the most dangerous countries in the hemisphere: Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

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It was always very telling that you had so much outrage and bitterness towards Ukrainians who wanted to govern themselves...

---

DOOD, THEY HAD ELECTIONS. That's why Yanukovich was President.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And when their elected government decided that it wanted to be BOTH in the EU AND in the EEU, that was when the USA/EU decided that indeed, the Ukrainians' elected government wasn't good enough for our power structure, and they decided to destabilize it and put in puppets of their own.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Did you recall how Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden, got a cushy job with the largest Ukrainian natgas company right after the overthrow of the Yanukovich government?

No?

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Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Sure thing. I'll get on my Batphone and give him a call.

Let you know what he says as soon as I've got the 411.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

Deadline is today.
Did they arrive at the Border yet?
Did the busses break down?
Did the busses return for another load?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Sure thing. I'll get on my Batphone and give him a call.

Let you know what he says as soon as I've got the 411.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

Deadline is today.
Did they arrive at the Border yet?
Did the busses break down?
Did the busses return for another load?

---

What deadline?

22 Million illegals didn't happen overnight.

The big joke on everybody is that while people were paying attention to 4,000 Hondurans for the last few weeks, 30,000 other illegals crossed over.

Womp Womp

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Sure thing. I'll get on my Batphone and give him a call.

Let you know what he says as soon as I've got the 411.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

Deadline is today.
Did they arrive at the Border yet?
Did the busses break down?
Did the busses return for another load?

---

What deadline?

22 Million illegals didn't happen overnight.

The big joke on everybody is that while people were paying attention to 4,000 Hondurans for the last few weeks, 30,000 other illegals crossed over.

Womp Womp

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

One story I read said 160 busses.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
The big joke on everybody LISTENING TO TRUMP is that while THEY were paying attention to 4,000 Hondurans for the last few weeks, 30,000 other illegals crossed over.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by captaincrunch:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
The big joke on everybody LISTENING TO TRUMP is that while THEY were paying attention to 4,000 Hondurans for the last few weeks, 30,000 other illegals crossed over.

---

Fixed that for you.

People not listening to Trump knew it was a sh*t topic from the start.

HEY JSF, you fav network says they're in Mexico City:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/caravan-migrants-seek-shelter-in-mexico-
city-as-caravan-election-underway-in-us

I thought Soros was getting them to the US border by today? What happened?!? Was that complete BullSh*t? < / trick question >

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Quote:

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It was always very telling that you had so much outrage and bitterness towards Ukrainians who wanted to govern themselves...

---

Quote:

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DOOD Are you really going to suggest that Yanukovych wasn't Putin's puppet?- GSTRTING

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Quote:

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And when their elected government decided that it wanted to be BOTH in the EU AND in the EEU, that was when the USA/EU decided that indeed, the Ukrainians' elected government wasn't good enough for our power structure, and they decided to destabilize it and put in puppets of their own. - SIGNY

I'm sure we pushed, hard even, but that didn't make up the people in the square. "On 18 February, some 20,000 Euromaidan protesters advanced on Ukraine's parliament in support of restoring the Constitution of Ukraine to its 2004 form, which had been repealed by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine shortly after Yanukovych was elected president in 2010." I don't care how effective Nuland may have been, that's The People speaking loudly and clearly.- GSTRING

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Quote:

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Did you recall how Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden, got a cushy job with the largest Ukrainian natgas company right after the overthrow of the Yanukovich government?
No? - SIGNY

Huh? So???? That's your trump card for [WHY] we created the revolution??- GSTRING

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Quote:

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And believe me - I will ignore any follow up on this topic. That is one very dead parrot.- GSTRING

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

---

It was always very telling that you had so much outrage and bitterness towards Ukrainians who wanted to govern themselves...

---

DOOD, THEY HAD ELECTIONS. That's why Yanukovich was President. - SIGNY

Quote:

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DOOD Are you really going to suggest that Yanukovych wasn't Putin's puppet?- GSTRTING

---

WHO GIVES A FUCK? That's who a majority voted for. What ... you think "we" have the right to overturn a democratic vote because WE don't like the result?? Wow, not so much a fan of people "governing themselves", are you?

Quote:

---

And when their elected government decided that it wanted to be BOTH in the EU AND in the EEU, that was when the USA/EU decided that indeed, the Ukrainians' elected government wasn't good enough for our power structure, and they decided to destabilize it and put in puppets of their own. - SIGNY

I'm sure we pushed, hard even, but that didn't make up the people in the square. "On 18 February, some 20,000 Euromaidan protesters advanced on Ukraine's parliament in support of restoring the Constitution of Ukraine to its 2004 form, which had been repealed by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine shortly after Yanukovych was elected president in 2010." I don't care how effective Nuland may have been, that's The People speaking loudly and clearly.- GSTRING

---

That's SOME OF the people. If you want to know what "The People" really think, you HOLD A VOTE. Making violence the driver of your politics only ensures that THE MOST VIOLENT GET THEIR WAY.

Is THAT the process that you want? Political violence?

Quote:

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Did you recall how Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden, got a cushy job with the largest Ukrainian natgas company right after the overthrow of the Yanukovich government?
No? - SIGNY

Huh? So???? That's your trump card for [WHY] we created the revolution??- GSTRING

---

No, it isn't, and to imply that I said so is just dishonest, so fuck off. We created the revolution because we wanted to take Sevastopol away from the Russians. I said so early, and often, and to say otherwise is just lying ... something you seem to do regularly.

Quote:

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And believe me - I will ignore any follow up on this topic. That is one very dead parrot.- GSTRING

---

Of course you will, because if you post any more you'll just reveal yourself an even bigger authoritarian a-hole than before.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Sure thing. I'll get on my Batphone and give him a call.

Let you know what he says as soon as I've got the 411.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Sure thing. I'll get on my Batphone and give him a call.

Let you know what he says as soon as I've got the 411.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

Deadline is today.
Did they arrive at the Border yet?
Did the busses break down?
Did the busses return for another load?

---

What deadline?

22 Million illegals didn't happen overnight.

The big joke on everybody is that while people were paying attention to 4,000 Hondurans for the last few weeks, 30,000 other illegals crossed over.

Womp Womp

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 1kiki:
One thing I noticed GEEBERS is very consistent about - he never lets mere facts keep him from his agenda.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

You didn't fix anything.

There's been at least 10,000 illegals crossing over into the country every week on average for decades to get where we're at now.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
22 million!? You must have studied at the Trump School of Economics.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by captaincrunch:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

You didn't fix anything.

There's been at least 10,000 illegals crossing over into the country every week on average for decades to get where we're at now.

---

You're right - there's no fixing your broken logic. Illegals have been crossing the border - as you say - for decades. So why was it suddenly such a big issue for Trump and his base? FEAR mongering perhaps? You really going to say it was something else? Meanwhile, Dems and Non-Trump citizens were more rightly concerned with Health Care.

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Quote:

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22 million!? You must have studied at the Trump School of Economics.- SGG

---

Quote:

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Yale, MIT study: 22 million, not 11 million, undocumented immigrants in US
By Rafael Bernal - 09/21/18 04:38 PM EDT

The undocumented population in the United States could be twice as large as the most commonly-used estimate, according to a research study published Friday in the scientific journal Plos One.

The paper, led by Mohammad M. Fazel-Zarandi, a researcher at Yale and Massachusetts Institute of Technology, estimates there are 22.1 million undocumented immigrants in the United States.

Fazel-Zarandi's study compared inflows and outflows of immigrants as well as demographic data. According to the report, the number of undocumented immigrants could be as low as 16.5 million, or as high as 29.1 million.

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Quote:

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Yeah, I agree. Fuck them, why should we care if Putin interferes in another country's elections.

---

Quote:

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America sig. I live in America.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Healthcare for the middle class has risen around 350% for insurance since the ACA was enacted.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
But hey, maybe you guys can fix it in the next 2 years now.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I seriously wish you all the luck in the world. Let me know how it goes.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SHINY, also ...

Quote:

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Yeah, I agree. Fuck them, why should we care if Putin interferes in another country's elections.

---

*insert sound of screeching tires here*

SHINY, everybody knew that Yanukovich was close to Russia. It's not like he was some deep dark secret; everyone knew who they were voting for when they voted.

And do you really think that us fomenting violence and picking the Ukrainians' next government for them was a good move ... for them? I mean, look where they are now: Did we really do them any big favors by "interfering" in their internal affairs?

IMHO there are almost no justifiable reasons to foment revolution in another nation. I don't care how hinky you think their elections were or whether you think their choice was bad: With few exceptions, violent "intervention" is the worst option

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

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America sig. I live in America.

---

So do I.

So, can you be a little more specific? At least tell us what state you live in?

I think you should not only enjoy the diversity of hosting a large population of illegal aliens, you should also bear some of the cost of what you advocate for others (especially those of us in border states).



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, can you be a little more specific? At least tell us what state you live in?

---

Quote:

---

So a definite case where each state should be able to set their own laws within some kind of Federal guidelines.

---

Quote:

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The Constitution never uses the word immigration, so how is it that the rules for immigrants, and quotas for countries, are set by the federal government and not by the state governments? After all, as the 10th Amendment states, are the powers not delegated to the United States held by the states, or the people?

The Supreme Court has ruled that the Congressional power to regulate naturalization, from Article 1, Section 8, includes the power to regulate immigration (see, for example, Hampton v. Mow Sun Wong, 426 U.S. 88 [1976]). It would not make sense to allow Congress to pass laws to determine how an immigrant becomes a naturalized resident if the Congress cannot determine how, or even if, that immigrant can come into the country in the first place. Just because the Constitution lacks the word immigration does not mean that it lacks the concept of immigration.

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Quote:

---

See SGG? It's ok - we all knew Trump was in Putin's pocket.- GSTRING

---

Quote:

---

Trump effectively defines America as a white ethnic nation that is being overrun by aliens

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by captaincrunch:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, can you be a little more specific? At least tell us what state you live in?

---

In all seriousness... a good list of the numbers by state. I'm sure they have changed since this graphic but have to be % close.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/interactives/unauthorized-immigrants/

I am a sometimes state's rights advocate, and in this case it seems like it is pretty lopsided in terms of the impact of illegal immigration. So a definite case where each state should be able to set their own laws within some kind of Federal guidelines. Having said that it does make me wonder why I haven't heard Texas or California make greater demands of the Federal government (at least that I've heard).

I'm also unsure of the Sanctuary City designation. I don't fully understand the implications either way and I sure as hell don't trust any politician or many on this board to try and explain it. But I am curious why so many cities believe it to be in their best interest.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by captaincrunch:

Quote:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Healthcare for the middle class has risen around 350% for insurance since the ACA was enacted.

---

Yeah, that's a BS number unless you provide a citation/source. I won't contest that it's far - very far - from perfect though.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
But hey, maybe you guys can fix it in the next 2 years now.

---

What a miniscule way to look at it. No, "you guys" - I assume you mean Democrats - can't fix it (whatever that means - make it better?) without the GOP and our A-hole president. That's how we got a great idea but watered down, marginally better ACA in the first place! It'll stay broken unless both sides get together.

Quote:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I seriously wish you all the luck in the world. Let me know how it goes.

---

You won't need me to let you know - you'll find out firsthand if you need any health care.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

---

So a definite case where each state should be able to set their own laws within some kind of Federal guidelines.

---

*insert sound of error-buzzer here*

CONSTITUTIONALLY, GSTRING, that particular authority belongs with the Federal government.

Quote:

---

The Constitution never uses the word immigration, so how is it that the rules for immigrants, and quotas for countries, are set by the federal government and not by the state governments? After all, as the 10th Amendment states, are the powers not delegated to the United States held by the states, or the people?

The Supreme Court has ruled that the Congressional power to regulate naturalization, from Article 1, Section 8, includes the power to regulate immigration (see, for example, Hampton v. Mow Sun Wong, 426 U.S. 88 [1976]). It would not make sense to allow Congress to pass laws to determine how an immigrant becomes a naturalized resident if the Congress cannot determine how, or even if, that immigrant can come into the country in the first place. Just because the Constitution lacks the word immigration does not mean that it lacks the concept of immigration.

---

https://usconstitution.net/constnot.html#immigration
https://usconstitution.net/constnot.html

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

If you need a source, look at how much you're paying for health insurance now compared to 2008. If you're going to lie to me and tell me that it's not true, then there is no reason to have any further discussion with you on the issue.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I'm curious Jack.....what ever happened to the Caravan?


SGG

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I'm curious Jack.....what ever happened to the Caravan?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SHINY, also ...

Quote:

---

Yeah, I agree. Fuck them, why should we care if Putin interferes in another country's elections.

---

*insert sound of screeching tires here*

SHINY, everybody knew that Yanukovich was close to Russia. It's not like he was some deep dark secret; everyone knew who they were voting for when they voted.

And do you really think that us fomenting violence and picking the Ukrainians' next government for them was a good move ... for them? I mean, look where they are now: Did we really do them any big favors by "interfering" in their internal affairs?

IMHO there are almost no justifiable reasons to foment revolution in another nation. I don't care how hinky you think their elections were or whether you think their choice was bad: With few exceptions, violent "intervention" is the worst option

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

---