REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The risk of nuclear war under Trump

POSTED BY: CAPTAINCRUNCH
UPDATED: Sunday, July 9, 2023 11:08
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Saturday, February 10, 2018 2:22 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


AAAAAAAAAAannnnnnnd. SECOND continues on with personal attacks because ... well, SECOND can't help itself.
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Signym has a grudge against Hillary, as does Putin. A coincidence? Probably not.
www.pri.org/stories/2017-10-25/vladimir-putins-grudge-hillary-clinton
"Vladimir Putin's grudge with Hillary Clinton"






HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Saturday, February 10, 2018 2:26 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Signym, the existing nuclear program is nothing I'll say anything intelligent about, because I like to post stuff for which I have ZERO evidence, and for which a simple google search would make me look ... wrong.






HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Saturday, February 10, 2018 2:34 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:

Because RUSSIA IS what Russia IS.

They don't mind screwing over other countries in order to advance their homophobic, white power, freedom of speech killing, warmongering agenda.

WHY WOULD YOU WANT CONTACT WITH THAT?????

They prove every day why they can't be trusted to even have NORMAL relations with them.

I swear.. it's like you are constantly advocating that the U.S. has to stay in an abusive relationship with Russia...because WHY??

What the hell do we have to gain from that??

Do you realize what a hillbilly you sound like? It's obvious you have zero knowledge or understanding of the dozens of democratically elected government around the world the US has overthrown, or the dozens more brutal dictators the US has allied with ... BECAUSE - only dictators can guarantee business results.


WHY WOULD YOU BE GOOD WITH THAT?????




HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Saturday, February 10, 2018 2:38 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Hmmm... so THUGR's head is up GSTRING's ass, and GSTRING's head is up THUGR's ass. It must be for the warmth.

No, it's for the, deep, deep, DEEP thoughts they find there.




HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:11 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
BROWN PEOPLE??? What the hell are you on about?? I don't support half the crap we've done either, it doesn't mean Russia is less ... bent to take us over or manipulate our systems.

So? Are we THAT fragile?
Quote:

WE HAVE ENOUGH PROBLEMS.
Yes, we do. And if we could stop spending trillions of dollars on self-destabilizing military pissing contests, maybe we'd have some money to fix them.
Quote:

This is from TODAY.
https://nypost.com/2018/02/07/russia-successfully-hacked-into-voter-ro
lls-during-2016-election/?sr_share=facebook


WE are being dicked with by these asshats. And you think we should just let them do whatever they want to do to us because...NUCLEAR WAR???? WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING??!!!

Because you have no sense of perspective ... you think it's TERRIBLE that somebody CLAIMED Russia hacked voter rolls. First of all - this is the second time around (or more) for those claims (that I know of), which were vigorously disproven by a number of states, including California. Besides that, SO WHAT? Don't we have a democracy? Isn't this information SUPPOSED to be available? And, yanno, in this day and age of mass hacking of hundreds of millions of people's accounts at one time - don't you think the state agencies have backed up their data?
Quote:

There is NO GODDAMN RISK of nuclear war with Russia right now,
Then you can disagree with Lieutenant General Richard D. Clarke US nuclear commander - but I digress ... after all, what does he know?
Quote:

SO WHAT THE FUCK DOES IT EVER MATTER????
I guess yelling in caps proves you know more.
Quote:

RUSSIA!! BREAKS EVERY LAW THEY DON'T MAKE THEMSELVES, AND A FEW THEY DO. They have no problem breaking every rule to get what THEY WANT...just like the Olympics. They broke doping so much they got banned !
Now, this is an area I am fluent in. So, to be brick simple - with very few exceptions, and those for a substance of questionable sports value which had up to that point been legal - Russian athletes did not test positive for banned substances. All of the 'evidence' was based on the hearsay of one man who had a vested interest in gaining the favor of US authorities.
Quote:

Which doesn't even matter because no matter what Russia does, no matter what we do...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .WE.DON'T.WANT.TO.BE.RUSSIA. EVER. NUCLEAR WEAPONS OR NO.
Have YOU ever NEGOTIATED with a bully??? IT DOESN'T WORK. The only thing that shuts down a bully is to make them scared with a large show of force.
PEOPLE AREN'T REASONABLE, bullies especially! YOU CANNOT REASON WITH THOSE WHO DO NOT WANT TO BE REASONED WITH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Russia does NOT want to be reasoned with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you really, REALLY think Russia is, somehow, going to take over the country? How the hell did you get so scrambled that that's even a thought?
Quote:

I know what it's like to be around someone who constantly thinks about the worst case scenario, but you are absolutely OBSESSED with a completely improbable worst case scenario.
Obsessing over worst-case scenarios - like you just did, you mean? Yanno, the whole idea that we're, somehow, magically, going to become Russia.
You don't even make a microscopic SPECK of sense.








HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:48 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
They ARE attacking infrastructure, I see it in the news all the time. Guess you just conveniently miss that, huh?
http://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/29977/cyber-warfare-2/russia-hacke
d-us-critical-infrastructure.html

You DO realize that story was from 2014. Has the US fallen off the edge of the world yet? And, why not?
Quote:

US infrastructure and government agencies are constantly under attack, a few weeks ago the White House confirmed to have suffered a cyber attack on its computer network which lasted for almost two weeks.
You've heard of Meltdown and Spectre, right? Two of the biggest security problems of all time, bar none. And who's responsible for them? Intel. AMD. And other chip makers. Not a Russian in sight.
Quote:

To have any recall of the Cuban Missile Crisis you would have to be in your 60's and you aren't. Unless you had your kid in your fifties. Right.
HOOKAY! Do not make fortune-telling your business!
Quote:

This thread was started BECAUSE OF YOUR CONSTANT OBSESSIONS.
OR mind-reading, either!
Quote:

You really believe that nuclear war could break out at any second with people we aren't in REGULAR WAR with. That is the very definition of paranoid delusion.
OR reading the news!




HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Saturday, February 10, 2018 4:01 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Maybe you should stop referring to her as a "child" then.
She is a handicapped ADULT.

Who happens to be her offspring - her child.
Quote:

I'm sure I have no clue ..I'd have to say I completely see where I get my messed up mental DNA from.

And the reason Russia hasn't done worse, is we have agencies that somehow can stop a cyberattack after it's been launched! So it doesn't get .. like ... worser!

And I can't begin to imagine why I can't stop trolling!

Hey look! I can post pictures instead of actual facts and logic, because facts and logic are just hard. I mean like, they're really haaaaard!

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Saturday, February 10, 2018 5:01 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Russian cyberspies have tricked employees at US defence companies into exposing their emails. "Hackers predominantly targeted personal Gmail (by phishing), with a few corporate accounts mixed in."

Why were sensitive computers running unsecure personal accounts? That's just dumb.
Quote:

http://www.newsweek.com/russia-us-attack-cuba-officials-649546
Speculation about sonic attacks that no one has figured out yet.
Quote:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-denies-simulate-attack-on-u-s-navy
-destroyer-uss-donald-cook
/

From 2016 - "they carried no weapons under the wings" tells you everything you need to know. The rest is just pointless hyperventilation.
Quote:


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/russia-never-stopped-its-cyber
attacks-on-the-united-states/2017/12/25/83076f2e-e676-11e7-a65d-1ac0fd7f097e_story.html?utm_term=.ef0f1ed1a841

OMG - "Russia continues to aggressively employ the most significant aspect of its 2016 tool kit: the use of social media"
Quote:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russian-hackers
-penetrated-us-electricity-grid-through-a-utility-in-vermont/2016/12/30/8fc90cc4-ceec-11e6-b8a2-8c2a61b0436f_story.html?utm_term=.b168b4a7e3ff

This one has been completely debunked. There is not the least shred of resemblance to reality in this so-called news report.
Quote:

https://www.military.com/defensetech/2017/09/06/russian-hackers-suspec
ted-targeting-us-utilities-nuclear-plants

Russians were 'suspected', it was unclear how many were affected, and there was no indication control systems were breached. I hate to say it, but it sounds like a lot of nothing.



Yanno, we supposedly made use of Dutch hacking of Russian cyberop. And for sure the US hacks us - we the people - with its backdoors and cable eavesdropping. It was the US/ Israel that created Stuxnet to cripple Iranian centrifuges, that got out into the wild. And I'm sure it wasn't the last. And one of the largest hacks in history was the US spook agencies prevailing on Yahoo to hack its own users - every single email to or from every single account. And now of course we have Spectre and Meltdown, deep security flaws built into chips found everywhere.

You know if they have the tools, then so do we. And if they use them, then so do we. And if they aren't benign, neither are we. And while I can't say if their government directs its tools at its citizens, I know that our government targets us.

I find your information questionable, and your inability to grasp the proportions of the larger picture perplexing. If they are the bogey-man you're so afraid of, so are we.




HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Saturday, February 10, 2018 6:34 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Why might Trump take the “quick and easy way” by preemptively nuking North Korea?
www.vox.com/world/2018/2/7/16974772/north-korea-war-trump-kim-nuclear-
weapon


He might because a South Korean military white paper from 2016, for instance, said the US would need to deploy 690,000 ground troops to South Korea if war broke out. Truly, it is slow and difficult to get that many troops in place. On the other hand, it doesn’t take 690,000 troops to drop a nuke. Indeed, it's quick and easy. Bruce Bennett, a senior researcher at the RAND Corporation who has spent decades studying North Korea generally and the Kim family specifically, believes those numbers are on the high side, but he thinks the US would need to send at least 200,000 troops into North Korea. By way of comparison, that would be significantly more troops than the US had in either Iraq or Afghanistan at the peaks of those two long wars. The 2016 assessment says the Pentagon would also need to send 2,000 warplanes and other aircraft to South Korea. The US hasn’t had that much airpower deployed to a single conflict since Vietnam.

Maybe next week Kim will test-fire a missile that flies too close to Guam or Hawaii. Or maybe a US ship will accidentally drift into North Korean waters and Kim’s navy will open fire. Trump might decide enough is enough. He might not have the patience to wait for 200,000 troops to arrive in Korea from the US.

Again, why might Trump take the easy way and preemptively nuke N Korea? He might because the experts stressed that North Korea could devastate Seoul in South Korea without even needing to use weapons of mass destruction. The North Korean military has an enormous number of rocket launchers and artillery pieces within range of Seoul. The nonpartisan Congressional Research Service estimates that Kim could hammer the South Korean capital with an astonishing 10,000 rockets per minute — and that such a barrage could kill more than 300,000 South Koreans in the opening days of the conflict. That’s all without N Korea using a single nuclear, chemical, or biological weapon.

Even more frightening, most of the people I spoke to said they believed Kim would use nuclear weapons against South Korea in the initial stages of the fighting — not just as a desperate last resort. All the more reason for Trump to nuke North Korea first.

In a chilling conversation, James Stavridis said there was at least a 10 percent chance of a nuclear war between the US and North Korea, and a 20 to 30 percent chance of a conventional conflict that could kill a million people or more. Retired Navy Adm. James Stavridis had a 37-year military career included a stint running NATO.

I’ve spent the past month posing questions to more than a dozen former Pentagon officials, CIA analysts, US military officers, and think tank experts, as well as to a retired South Korean general who spent his entire professional life preparing to fight the North. They’ve all said variants of the same thing: There is a genuine risk of a war on the Korean Peninsula that would involve the use of chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons. Several estimated that millions — plural — would die.

More at www.vox.com/world/2018/2/7/16974772/north-korea-war-trump-kim-nuclear-
weapon


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Saturday, February 10, 2018 9:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


One of the things about WICHY's posts in this thread IS THAT I THOUGHT HER CAPS LOCK BUTTON MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN RANDomly stuck. ThAT'S the only reason for this great outpouring of screeching and hypervENTILATION WHICH SEEMED TO BE COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO THE Topic at-hand. I thought it was kinda funny. I laughed a little eveRY TIME SHE. RESORTED. TO. CAPS.ON.A.TOTALLY.IRRATIONAL.STATEMENT.

But I think I understand her fear: She's so afraid of being victimized (again) that if she perceives certain situations to be potentially abusive, she goes off. The problem with that is that not only are her reactions skewed, so are her perceptions. She sees a problem when none exists, or she conflates a situation with her previous victimization.

So let's assume that in addition to being in pain, WISHY is suffering from PTSD and give her a little more space than usual. Since she's a former victim (she says) there is a REASON for her acting like a jerk. I know it's tough to do: She attacks viciously, but I don't think she's being that way just because she embodies the dark tetrad.

WISHY, this is for you. Pay close attention to the part about what drives our perceptions, and what makes up "objectivity". (2:00-3:58)


And for the rest of us ... 2:00 -12:50







-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Saturday, February 10, 2018 9:46 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And for the rest of us ... 2:00 -12:50



That was painful.

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Saturday, February 10, 2018 12:37 PM

WISHIMAY


And there is Toto (kiki), a week late to the conversation, barking at my ankles..


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Saturday, February 10, 2018 12:43 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I thought it was kinda funny. I laughed a little



I'm sure you did.


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Saturday, February 10, 2018 12:49 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I thought it was kinda funny. I laughed a little



I'm sure you did.

]

I hate to disagree wish but this is a much better dipection of sig



T

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Saturday, February 10, 2018 2:54 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

American hysteria over Russia will lead to nuclear war, according to report

Russian television broadcast a dire sounding piece on February 5th that probably was rather disquieting to most Russians, and also a source of significant dismay to their hopes for a rapprochement in relations following the election of Donald Trump to the Presidency of the United States. The news agency “Vesti” explained that the US is preparing itself for nuclear war with Russia.

The US Department of Defense published its 2018 Nuclear Posture Review. This consists of at least two documents that are public domain that detail the assessment the DoD made about nuclear threats from around the world. The language about Russia is curious, for like Russia, the US repeatedly maintains that there is no desire for anything but good relations.

However, this is unfortunately either a blind claim or a willfully blind claim for the sake of propaganda. Based on the insanity of the US government’s reaction or posture about Russia overall, with the military fears, the sanctions and the most recent incidents of the release of the “Kremlin list” of government heads and successful businessmen and women, and the close flyby of a Russian fighter jet to an American surveillance aircraft, the ever-present “RussiaGate” investigations; and the lack of visible insanity on the Russians’ side, it seems likely that the American version of what is causing the ‘need’ to resolidify ‘defenses’ is lacking in factual evidence and cannot be taken as conclusive or trustworthy.

MORE AT http://theduran.com/american-hysteria-over-russia-will-lead-to-nuclear
-war
/

Now, as usual, I don't take what the Russian media says at face value any more than I take American media at face value. This COULD be for public consumption in the runup to Russian elections.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Saturday, February 10, 2018 9:06 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
You were for Hillary? Then yes, you did.



I've said a dozen times I wasn't for Hillary OR Trump, not that you have the ability to retain info anymore... but yeah...after this year, I'm pretty sure ANYONE would have more grace, credibility, or honor than Herr Trumpski.

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Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:37 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

after this year, I'm pretty sure ANYONE would have more grace, credibility, or honor than Herr Trumpski.- WITCHY
I wouldn't go pointing out how graceless others are, if I were you.

Quote:

You and 6ix and Niki have been picking on my kid and my husband
No, I haven't. Once again, you see an attack where none exists.

Quote:

Yeah, you were being so nice, you only used "bitch" every other line. -WISHY
And may I say ... you started it with "NO, YOU DUMB GOATHERDER" ?

Seriously, I posted many many replies which were on-topic and with a minimum of name-calling, and all YOU could do was post ....

Quote:

I don't think you are even old enough to personally remember the Cuban Missile Crisis. Were your parents obsessed with it?? Did they beat you if you didn't constantly worry about Nuclear War?? You have serious brainwash level concern with this. Something is not right with you.
(This is when I decided you were being a bitch, but I didn't call you one for many posts) and
Quote:

BOOZE FOR BRAINS.
and
Quote:

This thread was started BECAUSE OF YOUR CONSTANT OBSESSIONS.
when I didn't even start this thread, and ...
Quote:

if you are American (which we know you aren't)


So stop with the personal attacks and maybe people won't react to you like you're a bully.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, February 11, 2018 8:11 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

I wouldn't go pointing out how graceless others are, if I were you.

Is it okay with you to point out how graceful Americans are about A-bombs?

How many eventual Nobel Prize winners worked at Los Alamos on the original A-bomb? Many. It was a sweet technical problem they were solving in basic physics.

What did the US Army’s Air Force Generals do with those Nobel Prize Winners' A-bombs? Make bigger firebombs. That was just a continuation of what the Generals had already been doing for years to cities in Japan and Germany. Cities full of women and children.

Was the American voter concerned about firebombing cities while it was happening? Not really. Millions of civilians died from American firebombing. Where were the American protesters? There weren’t any, maybe out of fear of what pro-war supporters would do to protesters.

After the war was over, the only moral qualms I’ve ever heard from an American is the one about themselves being firebombed. Other people getting firebombed? Not a problem for the average American voter. If it was a problem, the voters would be raising hell with their elected Representatives to Congress, like the voters do about taxes.

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Sunday, February 11, 2018 9:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECOND, your problem is that you use the "kitchen sink" style of argument, as in "everything but the kitchen sink", and you can't seem to decide whether the change of NPR/ increase in military/ nuclear spending is

a) A moral outrage, caused by "Americans" lack of concern for anyone but themselves
b) A strategic nightmare, with the capability of destroying most human life on earth, including America itself, or
c) A cynical money-grab by the military industrial complex, who have no plans to actually use the weapons that they profited from so greatly

The last option kind of negates the first two, so decide which argument you think is the most correct and go with that one.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, February 11, 2018 10:17 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND, your problem is that you use the "kitchen sink" style of argument, as in "everything but the kitchen sink", and you can't seem to decide whether the change of NPR/ increase in military/ nuclear spending is

a) A moral outrage, caused by "Americans" lack of concern for anyone but themselves
b) A strategic nightmare, with the capability of destroying most human life on earth, including America itself, or
c) A cynical money-grab by the military industrial complex, who have no plans to actually use the weapons that they profited from so greatly

The last option kind of negates the first two, so decide which argument you think is the most correct and go with that one.

All those fine American physicists with their Nobel Prizes in Physics who worked on the A-bomb don’t compare well with Andrei Sakharov, Nobel Peace prize winner, who had a key role in building Russian nukes. He actually made loud noises, continuously, opposing nukes and was punished for his opposition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Sakharov

Unlike Sakharov, the Prize winning American physicists kept very quiet over the years and the typical American was even quieter, apparently afraid to call a hundred million of their pro-war, pro-nuke fellow Americans a bunch of murdering sons of bitches.

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Sunday, February 11, 2018 10:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So SECOND, what you've done is provide great evidence that the Nobel Prize is corrupted (which I already knew. After all, both Kissinger and Obama got the Peace Prize), and that American scientists are moral cowards.

What is your solution?

That scientists boycott nuclear research?

I guess I don't understand your point.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, February 11, 2018 10:33 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So SECOND, what you've done is provide great evidence that the Nobel Prize is corrupted (which I already knew. After all, both Kissinger and Obama got the Peace Prize), and that American scientists are moral cowards.

What is your solution?

That scientists boycott nuclear research?

I guess I don't understand your point.

Maybe my previous remark needs a little expansion. Millions of Americans have gone to war, worked in the "defense" industry, supported ever increasing Pentagon budgets, supported some astonishingly stupid wars, or supported nuking Japan, without ever personally burning a child to death with a nuke. They're all very fine people; you only need ask them what they think of themselves. The US has precisely the nuclear policy I would expect when it is full of people like that. Trump can feel pretty free to nuke whoever he pleases. It is the rest of the world, not Americans, that might give him reason to pause and consider the consequences. The rest of the world might try to kill Trump with a nuke if he does drop nukes.

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Sunday, February 11, 2018 10:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Maybe my previous remark needs a little expansion.
Oh OK, let me think on it.

-------------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


In the meantime, I'm looking this over:

Executive Summary of the NPR

Quote:

While the United States has continued to reduce the number and salience of nuclear weapons, others, including Russia and China, have moved
in the opposite direction. They have added new types of nuclear capabilities to their arsenals, increased the salience of nuclear forces in their strategies and plans, and engaged in increasingly aggressive behavior, including in outer space and cyber space. North Korea continues its illicit pursuit of nuclear weapons and missile capabilities in direct violation of United Nations (U.N.) Security Council resolutions. Iran has agreed to constraints on its nuclear program in the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA). Nevertheless, it retains the technological capability and much of the capacity necessary to develop a nuclear weapon within one year of a decision to do so.

MORE AT https://media.defense.gov/2018/Feb/02/2001872877/-1/-1/1/EXECUTIVE-SUM
MARY.PDF


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:39 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
In the meantime, I'm looking this over:

Executive Summary of the NPR

Quote:

While the United States has continued to reduce the number and salience of nuclear weapons, others, including Russia and China, have moved
in the opposite direction. They have added new types of nuclear capabilities to their arsenals, increased the salience of nuclear forces in their strategies and plans, and engaged in increasingly aggressive behavior, including in outer space and cyber space. North Korea continues its illicit pursuit of nuclear weapons and missile capabilities in direct violation of United Nations (U.N.) Security Council resolutions. Iran has agreed to constraints on its nuclear program in the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA). Nevertheless, it retains the technological capability and much of the capacity necessary to develop a nuclear weapon within one year of a decision to do so.

MORE AT https://media.defense.gov/2018/Feb/02/2001872877/-1/-1/1/EXECUTIVE-SUM
MARY.PDF

It is salesmanship. The Pentagon is selling the idea that the US needs to buy nukes. I think it will convince most Americans, since they were sold the idea, and continue to believe, that nuking Japanese children was necessary in the past, so why not buy nukes for the future?

The grandson, Paul Tibbets IV, of the pilot and, later, general who nuked Japan was promoted to brigadier general in 2014, and became Deputy Director for Nuclear Operations at the Global Operations Directorate of the United States Strategic Command at Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska. As such, he was responsible for America's strategic nuclear forces. On 5 June 2015, he assumed command of the 509th Bomb Wing. The American business of nuking the world passes down the generations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tibbets

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Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:26 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
In the meantime, I'm looking this over:

Executive Summary of the NPR

Quote:

While the United States has continued to reduce the number and salience of nuclear weapons, others, including Russia and China, have moved
in the opposite direction. They have added new types of nuclear capabilities to their arsenals, increased the salience of nuclear forces in their strategies and plans, and engaged in increasingly aggressive behavior, including in outer space and cyber space. North Korea continues its illicit pursuit of nuclear weapons and missile capabilities in direct violation of United Nations (U.N.) Security Council resolutions. Iran has agreed to constraints on its nuclear program in the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA). Nevertheless, it retains the technological capability and much of the capacity necessary to develop a nuclear weapon within one year of a decision to do so.

MORE AT https://media.defense.gov/2018/Feb/02/2001872877/-1/-1/1/EXECUTIVE-SUM
MARY.PDF

It is salesmanship. The Pentagon is selling the idea that the US needs to buy nukes. I think it will convince most Americans, since they were sold the idea, and continue to believe, that nuking Japanese children was necessary in the past, so why not buy nukes for the future?

The grandson, Paul Tibbets IV, of the pilot and, later, general who nuked Japan was promoted to brigadier general in 2014, and became Deputy Director for Nuclear Operations at the Global Operations Directorate of the United States Strategic Command at Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska. As such, he was responsible for America's strategic nuclear forces. On 5 June 2015, he assumed command of the 509th Bomb Wing. The American business of nuking the world passes down the generations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tibbets]

Sorry second but for now I'm on board. I'm still hopeful for a better future though.


T

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Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:11 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:

Sorry second but for now I'm on board. I'm still hopeful for a better future though.

With you on board, I'm on board, too, so long as Trump is strapped to the dropped nuke like Maj. 'King' Kong (Slim Pickens) in Dr. Strangelove. If Trump has the same commitment to nuking North Korea as Maj. King Kong had to nuking Russia, it must be a great idea, the best idea. I'm giddy for using tactical nukes wherever, whenever, with Trump leading the way to victory. Make America Great Again. www.imdb.com/title/tt0057012



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Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:21 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:

Sorry second but for now I'm on board. I'm still hopeful for a better future though.

With you on board, I'm on board, too, so long as Trump is strapped to the dropped nuke like Maj. 'King' Kong (Slim Pickens) in Dr. Strangelove. If Trump has the same commitment to nuking North Korea as Maj. King Kong had to nuking Russia, it must be a great idea, the best idea. I'm giddy for using tactical nukes wherever, whenever, with Trump leading the way to victory. Make America Great Again. www.imdb.com/title/tt0057012





Agreed. Good post second, too funny.


T

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Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:39 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Agreed. Good post second, too funny.





Ya knocked one outta the park there, Second

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Sunday, February 11, 2018 3:49 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

I didn't hear any of YOUR objections to placing a "missile defense" in Romania, Poland, and the Czech Republic, which puts nuclear missiles right on Russia's doorstep.

What, lol. These are interceptor missiles - designed to shoot nuclear missiles out of the sky.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_missile_defence_system



-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Sunday, February 11, 2018 4:38 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

I didn't hear any of YOUR objections to placing a "missile defense" in Romania, Poland, and the Czech Republic, which puts nuclear missiles right on Russia's doorstep.

What, lol. These are interceptor missiles - designed to shoot nuclear missiles out of the sky.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_missile_defence_system



-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521




Hey KPO


T

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Monday, February 12, 2018 6:44 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Hey T

EDIT: Lol, ok, that looks super seductive. I'll reserve the winky emoji for 1kiki from now on.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Monday, February 12, 2018 8:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I didn't hear any of YOUR objections to placing a "missile defense" in Romania, Poland, and the Czech Republic, which puts nuclear missiles right on Russia's doorstep. - SIGNY
What, lol. These are interceptor missiles - designed to shoot nuclear missiles out of the sky KRAPO



Yes, I know. That is why I called them a "missile defense" system, so YOU ...


Or at least learn to read with comprehension.

Now, I didn't want to explain the whole problem because it's complicated, and I figured it would be too complicated for you all (and as it turns out, I was right), but all nuclear agreements between the USA and Russia involve maintaining a "balance of power". This not only means maintaining a balance of power in OFFENSIVE weapons, but also maintaining a balance of power in DEFENSIVE weapons, because when one side increases their defensive capability it decreases the role of deterrence (mutual assured destruction) in launching an first strike.

With me so far?

The role of nuclear missiles on Russia's borders is to intercept a COUNTERstrike. In other words, the American military was counting on launching a first strike, and then negating the Russian nuclear response by intercepting missiles on the way UP.

This was well and thoroughly discussed when the missiles were placed in Europe, and if any of you had been paying the slightest attention (which I know you weren't) you'd know this already. But go look it up, if you don't believe me.

Anyway, what Russia did to maintain its deterrence was to develop a "dead man's trigger" ... nuclear weapons place in automated submarines which have been positioned off the coasts of the USA and designed to make the coasts uninhabitable for generations to come. And being automated -and with no life support functions - these submarines can remain silent and under water for decades and decades, undetectable. Somewhere in the run-up to this NPR, our military has acceded to the fact that these submarines exist and have already been deployed. I mentioned them already but I didn't fully explain their significance. Well, now you know so you can't claim ignorance (as if anyone would want to. Well, maybe you do, since that seems to be your stock-in-trade; I don't know.)

But the USA isn't the only one pushing the nuclear envelope, as the Russians have developed the "Iskander" missile system, which is a very small, highly portable, and very accurate missile/ missile launch system of intermediate range, which can be tipped with many different kinds of warheads. Unfortunately, instead of negotiating these away, the Pentagon has gotten tired of the whole nuclear chess game and has tipped over the board and gone for a full-on arms race.

That's the state of the nuclear situation today as I understand it. As I said, it's complicated. There are a lot of moving parts, with both offensive and defensive systems; and short-, medium-, and long-range weapons in play; and I was hoping to read the NPR keeping in mind that the Iskander missile system is viewed by the USA military as an abrogation of the INF treaty.


As I said, it's complicated, and there is no simple way to parse the truth. So do your research, and come back with a considered opinion.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Monday, February 12, 2018 8:26 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Sorry Sig, I can't work out if you have accepted that you were wrong yet, or if you are just kicking up dust to hide that you lied.

So,

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
which puts nuclear missiles right on Russia's doorstep. - SIGNY



This statement is 100% false. The missiles in the ABM system are NOT nuclear. You are writing things that are 100% false.

Quote:

Now, I didn't want to explain the whole problem because it's complicated, and I figured it would be too complicated for you all

Either you were ignorant, or you lied. I read this as admitting that you lied. Giving a simple lie was easier or more expedient for you than making your case in a truthful, more-complicated fashion. Not good enough. If your worldview is strong, Siggy, you shouldn't have to lie to advance it.

I'm very disappointed in you.

(Lol, j/k, I'm used to it.)

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Monday, February 12, 2018 8:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

In the meantime, I'm looking this over:

Quote:

Executive Summary of the NPR
While the United States has continued to reduce the number and salience of nuclear weapons, others, including Russia and China, have moved
in the opposite direction. They have added new types of nuclear capabilities to their arsenals, increased the salience of nuclear forces in their strategies and plans, and engaged in increasingly aggressive behavior, including in outer space and cyber space. North Korea continues its illicit pursuit of nuclear weapons and missile capabilities in direct violation of United Nations (U.N.) Security Council resolutions. Iran has agreed to constraints on its nuclear program in the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA). Nevertheless, it retains the technological capability and much of the capacity necessary to develop a nuclear weapon within one year of a decision to do so.

MORE AT https://media.defense.gov/2018/Feb/02/2001872877/-1/-1/1/EXECUTIVE-SUM
MARY.PDF


It is salesmanship. The Pentagon is selling the idea that the US needs to buy nukes. I think it will convince most Americans, since they were sold the idea, and continue to believe, that nuking Japanese children was necessary in the past, so why not buy nukes for the future?

The grandson, Paul Tibbets IV, of the pilot and, later, general who nuked Japan was promoted to brigadier general in 2014, and became Deputy Director for Nuclear Operations at the Global Operations Directorate of the United States Strategic Command at Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska. As such, he was responsible for America's strategic nuclear forces. On 5 June 2015, he assumed command of the 509th Bomb Wing. The American business of nuking the world passes down the generations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tibbets
- SECOND



SECOND, back to your problem of the "kitchen sink" style of argument. You really need to stop using an assault rifle and spraying everything around you, and FOCUS.

You have said, at various times, that source of our problematic USA military/ foreign policy is

a) The American People, because they're too lazy, stupid, and complacent to look into the ugliness of what's done in their name
b) The Pentagon, because it has its own bureaucratic instinct for survival, dancing as it does as the partner in the MIC which sucks in a huge amount of our budget
c) Scientists, who did the amoral research as wage- and hubris-driven brainiacs
d) The Nobel Prize Committee.
e) Trump, just because.

Did I miss anything/anybody?

Working upwards thru the list

e) Trump is just the latest pimple on the ass of our foreign/ military policy. Or, maybe he's smarter than all of us, and is running a complicated game. Time will tell. But in any case, our military/ foreign policy has sucked for DECADES ... since at least the 1960s ... you can't lay all of this on Trump.
d) Irrelevant
c) Ditto
b) The Pentagon, which has it's own lizard-brain instinct for growth, and is one part of the deep state
a) The American People.

Starting at the bottom of the second list:

a) If all of the decisions are by the deep state and their bought-and-paid-for politicians, who are looking forward to lucrative positions in the various MIC boards, does it really matter what the American people think??? I mean- yeah, maybe Americans ARE lazy and stupid ... after all, look at THUGR! He's willing to give up his independence to ANY of deep state! ... but so what? If America is an oligarchy - and evidence DOES point in that direction - then mostly Americans don't get what they want anyway, so isn't it irrelevant?

Later. I have a lot of things to do today.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Monday, February 12, 2018 9:55 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Signym. How about the alternate explanation that most Americans find burning children with A-bombs is A-OK? Two decades after Hiroshima, 70% told a Harris poll that we did the right thing, while 17% were sorry, and in 1982 Harris found those numbers at 63% and 26% respectively. By 1998, a History Channel/Roper poll found 47% said dropping the bombs was the right thing to do, 26% wrong, and 22% somewhere in between. This gives Trump tremendous latitude to do as he pleases. If he wants more nukes, the people are with him. Pentagon is always for more. Say the words "national defense" and Congress will vote yes. They always do.
https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/public-opinion-using-nuclear-weapons/


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, February 12, 2018 10:16 AM

CAPTAINCRUNCH

... stay crunchy...


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Sorry Sig, I can't work out if you have accepted that you were wrong yet, or if you are just kicking up dust to hide that you lied.
This statement is 100% false. The missiles in the ABM system are NOT nuclear. You are writing things that are 100% false. Either you were ignorant, or you lied. I read this as admitting that you lied.



That's a toughie, the ole, "did she lie or was she just wrong and can't admit" thing. Even with all the data we have on it it's still tough! She ignored you asking her to clarify and then posted the trusty dump and run, "Later. I have a lot of things to do today," so it's definitely one or the other... but lying? Or just "whoops, I f*cked up and someone caught me!"

Yanno, I'm going to go with lying also. The history of making sh*t up and hoping no one will call her on it is so frequent it's likely a reflex at this point, like a spasm or a twitch.


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Monday, February 12, 2018 12:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


KRAPO: In my earlier posts I called the eastern-European based system a "defensive system" and I ALSO mentioned the Russian development of a "dead man" response, both of which are consistent with the concept of an ABM system. The reason why I put quotes around "defensive" isn't because they aren't anti-missile, but because our original excuse was a defense against IRAN - not Russia. Well, now that Iran signed a nuclear deal, the question is ... what are the missiles still doing there?

You see? I SAID it was complicated. I just really didn't want to have to do all that typing. But like I said, you can look it up if you want. DO YOUR RESEARCH, as you posted!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Monday, February 12, 2018 12:29 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Signym. How about the alternate explanation that most Americans find burning children with A-bombs is A-OK? Two decades after Hiroshima, 70% told a Harris poll that we did the right thing, while 17% were sorry, and in 1982 Harris found those numbers at 63% and 26% respectively. By 1998, a History Channel/Roper poll found 47% said dropping the bombs was the right thing to do, 26% wrong, and 22% somewhere in between. This gives Trump tremendous latitude to do as he pleases. If he wants more nukes, the people are with him. Pentagon is always for more. Say the words "national defense" and Congress will vote yes. They always do.
https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/public-opinion-using-nuclear-weapons/



That's how Americans react to a lot of things. Right after the official explanation of Kennedy's assassination came out, most people believe it. Decades later, they don't.

Right before our invasion of Iraq (Panama, Libya, Grenada) most people believed the excuses; decades later, they don't.

What causes this reaction? Is it possible that the media runs a blitz on the population, and that public opinion bends to the propaganda campaign and only slowly asserts itself after the pressure is off?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Monday, February 12, 2018 1:04 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Signym. If Americans do NOT know today how nukes burn children to death, can that be blamed on the MSM, as you are trying to do? Is the media really misleading Americans into believing nukes do NOT kill women, as Signym is insinuating? Or will the majority of Americans never know? I think the majority of Americans don't want to know because knowing would mean not nuking whoever the President feels deserving. The U.S. obliterated the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the following month, after the bombs’ power had been demonstrated, 4% of respondents in a NORC survey said they would not have used them at all, 26% only on uninhabited areas, and 44% on one city at a time. Twenty-three percent said they would have wiped out all Japan’s cities. 44% + 23% equals a majority, Signym. I'm thinking a majority of Americans in 1945 wanted all the Japs, including women and children, dead dead dead and a victory wasn't enough to cool the overheated Americans. Even until today, victory on the battlefield isn't enough. A majority of Americans also want women and children dead dead dead. This is a very helpful attitude for a Pentagon and Congress who both want nukes for their President.
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

That's how Americans react to a lot of things. Right after the official explanation of Kennedy's assassination came out, most people believe it. Decades later, they don't.

Right before our invasion of Iraq (Panama, Libya, Grenada) most people believed the excuses; decades later, they don't.

What causes this reaction? Is it possible that the media runs a blitz on the population, and that public opinion bends to the propaganda campaign and only slowly asserts itself after the pressure is off?



The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, February 12, 2018 1:38 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Is the media really misleading Americans into believing nukes do NOT kill women, as Signym is insinuating?"

I think Americans are taking comfort in the words "limited" and "tactical", both of which are featured heavily and meant to convey the idea that nuclear weapons are really just another kind of explosive, and have nothing to do with MAD, which is never mentioned at all.

And Americans are being kept ignorant of the nuclear-armed subs at our coasts, and the 'deadman' nuclear installation in the Urals, so as to hide the very real threat that our military's actions might bite us, personally, in the butt.

And that IS a campaign, which has been going on at some level since our aggression against Afghanistan.




HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Monday, February 12, 2018 1:41 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Trump: We're creating brand new nuclear force

During a meeting on the US infrastructure plan, President Trump touted the advancement of the US military. Nice video of Trump bragging about nuking people and creating jobs: www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/02/12/trump-military-infrastructure-p
lanning-sot.cnn


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, February 12, 2018 1:57 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


The campaign to use nuclear weapons in conventional warfare didn't begin with Trump, and it won't end with him.




HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Monday, February 12, 2018 2:14 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
The campaign to use nuclear weapons in conventional warfare didn't begin with Trump, and it won't end with him.

You obviously did not look at the Trump video from today. No President has ever been as casual, dismissive, insouciant, and unconcerned about nuking people. The only restraint on him is his own people reminding him that once he drops his first nuke, he will be nuked in turn. It is not the American public holding Trump back, it is the other governments with nukes.
www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/02/12/trump-military-infrastructure-p
lanning-sot.cnn


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Monday, February 12, 2018 2:18 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Then the military's propaganda campaign - to make the US first-use of nuclear weapons in a conventional conflict acceptable to the public - which began in 2001 - did its job.

ETA: the US government has been propagandizing us about nuclear weapons ever since duck-and-cover, also called smoke-and-mirrors. We got your back, they assured us. We have a PLAN! Then we were told the new plan was MAD. MAD would keep us safe. For the last decade we've been told that as long as nukes were merely 'limited' for 'strategic' use, using them would be OK.

There is a long, long history of the US government propagandizing its subjects - oh, I should have said citizens - not just about nukes, but for general military purposes.




HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Monday, February 12, 2018 3:18 PM

THGRRI


And you can see all this from your Russian cheap seats?

T


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Then the military's propaganda campaign - to make the US first-use of nuclear weapons in a conventional conflict acceptable to the public - which began in 2001 - did its job.

ETA: the US government has been propagandizing us about nuclear weapons ever since duck-and-cover, also called smoke-and-mirrors. We got your back, they assured us. We have a PLAN! Then we were told the new plan was MAD. MAD would keep us safe. For the last decade we've been told that as long as nukes were merely 'limited' for 'strategic' use, using them would be OK.

There is a long, long history of the US government propagandizing its subjects - oh, I should have said citizens - not just about nukes, but for general military purposes.





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Monday, February 12, 2018 3:29 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Yes, ignore the topic, because you got nothing.




HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Monday, February 12, 2018 3:30 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Then the military's propaganda campaign - to make the US first-use of nuclear weapons in a conventional conflict acceptable to the public - which began in 2001 - did its job.

ETA: the US government has been propagandizing us about nuclear weapons ever since duck-and-cover, also called smoke-and-mirrors. We got your back, they assured us. We have a PLAN! Then we were told the new plan was MAD. MAD would keep us safe. For the last decade we've been told that as long as nukes were merely 'limited' for 'strategic' use, using them would be OK.

There is a long, long history of the US government propagandizing its subjects - oh, I should have said citizens - not just about nukes, but for general military purposes.

You were not paying attention, 1kiki. Since at least WWII, the majority of the American public would easily accept Washington DC killing everyone (old men, women, children) connected to any kind of enemy. Those Americans were born that way; they didn't need any propaganda from Washington DC. But they did need propagandizing to get them to volunteer to do the killing themselves. ("Uncle Sam needs YOU!" "Be all you can be in the Army!") They don't want to die for the country. They want other people to die.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, February 12, 2018 3:34 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


The propaganda exits, in large amounts, I might add. I can show it, and you know it's true.

The government wouldn't bother if it didn't think it was necessary - to give us subjects the required push in attitude.




HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Monday, February 12, 2018 3:45 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
The propaganda exits, in large amounts, I might add. I can show it, and you know it's true.

The government wouldn't bother if it didn't think it was necessary - to give us subjects the required push in attitude.

Do you really think Americans have to be propagandized to have sex? They have to be propagandized to get married. Do you really think American have to be propagandized to cheer for war? They have to be propagandized to pay for war and volunteer to fight. If the propagandizing is not done well, the politician won't get reelected, but you'll get the war, anyway. The best propaganda for a politician is to win the war. That will cover a multitude of sins about false justifications for starting the war.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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