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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

What next?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
First of all, SECOND, Trump has no skin in the healthcare game. It doesn't benefit him, personally, to let Obamacare fail. So he may be callous, but in that sense it's not personal gain that he's after.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I agree, SIX.

SECOND, the Vox article that you linked to, detailing all of the failures of Obamacare in Tennessee .... those problems were inherent in Obamacare. They were there before the 2016 election, just look at the crucial dates in the article.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND: There are states accepted the Medicaid expansion that are still in trouble. States where many counties are reduced to one insurer or no insurer:

The states that seem to in trouble throughout most of their counties did NOT accept Medicaid expansion: Texas. Oklahoma, Wyoming, Nebraska, Kansas, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, NC, SC, Virginia, Tennessee, Missouri.

On the other hand, there are states that DID accept Medicaid expansion, and some (or many) of their counties are also in trouble: Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, Delaware, PA, Ohio, Iowa, West Virginia, Kentucky.

Medicaid helps, but not enough.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I get that the trajectory of Obamacare is in the wrong direction.

But if it implodes ... what then? Or should Congress move itself to fix the problem BEFORE it becomes catastrophic?

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"Congress should first focus on fixing the Obamacare exchanges before it takes on Medicaid. If we want to move Americans off Medicaid, there must be somewhere stable for them to go."

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"One vital improvement would be to provide adequate tax credits"

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"States are willing to assume greater financial risk by transitioning to a block grant or per-capita cap, but will also need new flexibilities, such as tools to manage the rising cost of pharmaceuticals — the fastest growing component of Medicaid."

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"And states cannot expect the federal government to continue paying 90 percent of Medicaid expansion costs given our nation’s historic debt; they must accept a gradual return to traditional cost-sharing levels."

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"Finally, we can never truly fix the rising cost of health care unless we start paying for value rather than volume. We are making this transition in Ohio by paying physicians for providing better care, not simply more care, in order to pursue better health outcomes."

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, you know what they say- god (or the devil) is in the details.

So just for the sake of completeness, I'd certainly try to run down a few bunny-trails of If we commit to a nationalized or single-payer health service, how do we pay for it? And how do we ENSURE that it stays on-track because, I've got to say, our national political process is NOT a good model for problem solving.

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Originally posted by second:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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The politics of casual disregard for the people’s welfare was brought to a new level. Trump has a new health care plan — rather than try to improve the situation, he said he will make their health care situation as bad as possible and blame Democrats for the outcome.

Trump said his plan was now "to let Obamacare fail, it will be a lot easier. And I think we're probably in that position where we'll let Obamacare fail. We're not going to own it. I'm not going to own it. I can tell you the Republicans are not going to own it. We'll let Obamacare fail and then the Democrats are going to come to us."

The fact that this is Trump’s instinct underscores that from health care to Russian hacking to corruption, the signature theme of Trump’s approach to politics is putting Donald Trump’s interests ahead of anyone else’s.

www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2017/07/18/trump-says-republicans-shou
ld-let-obamacare-fail/TXPUCAfRYFNhVBenD1fF7K/story.html

The president certainly does have some fairly broad discretionary authority that he and his health and human services secretary can use to deliberately sabotage the program if they want to. Normally programs aren’t designed with this possibility in mind, since it would be kind of crazy for a president to do this.

www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/5/1/15373372/obamacare-tennessee-
zero-insurers

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Well, you know what they say- god (or the devil) is in the details.

So just for the sake of completeness, I'd certainly try to run down a few bunny-trails of If we commit to a nationalized or single-payer health service, how do we pay for it? And how do we ENSURE that it stays on-track because, I've got to say, our national political process is NOT a good model for problem solving. - SIGNY

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A history of why the US is the only rich country without universal health care
https://qz.com/1022831

Despite the evidence that a single-payer system would be a more efficient and cheaper choice, introducing it in the US is not a serious option. Trying to dismantle the current system would be a mammoth task. For one thing, it would cost a great many jobs: Health- and life-insurance companies employ some 800,000 people, with yet more employed by the medical industry just to deal with insurance companies. Though the savings from eliminating them could be invested in retraining those people for other professions, it would be difficult for any party to convince voters that it’s a necessary step.

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And with a market worth more than $3 trillion, drug firms, medical providers, and health technology companies have an incentive to maintain a system that lets them set prices instead of negotiating with a single government payer. Both the GOP and the Democratic party are under the influence of the medical-industrial complex: In 2016, hospitals and nursing homes contributed over $95 million to electoral campaigns in the US, and the pharmaceutical sector gave nearly $250 million.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
GOP is wriggling on the hook of its own (fundamentally unpopular) ideology.

The DNC has the chance to speak to the public directly and explain its own plan.

What next?

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

Universal Health Care is the answer, but I know that will never happen. Not as long as we have these half-assed politicians in Washington. Drain the Swamp, are you fucking kidding me? It's more like Fuck the Country. The richest country on the planet and we got Bupkis! Third World countries have better systems in place. It's fucking embarrassing.

SGG

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Trump has been submissive to the congressional GOP’s health care agenda.= SECOND

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A President got us into this mess: Nixon. The GOP keeps us there ever since.

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Max Fine is intimately familiar with Medicare — because he helped create it. Fine is the last surviving member of President Kennedy’s Medicare Task Force, and he was also President Johnson’s designated debunker against the health insurance industry.

Fine, now 91, wrote to The Intercept recently to explain that Medicare was never intended to cover only the elderly population, and that expanding it to everyone was a goal that its architects long campaigned for.

“Three years after the enactment of Medicare, in Dec. 1968, a Committee of 100 leading Americans was formed to campaign for single payer National Heath Insurance. The campaign leaders were UAW pres. Walter Reuther, Dr. Michael DeBakey, Nat. Urban League Pres Whitney Young and Mary Lasker, a leader in the formation and funding of NIH,” he wrote.

“The NY Times and other newspapers gave front page play to the announcement of the campaign for ‘Medicare for All’ but the Committee gained even more attention when, shortly before Xmas, pres-elect Nixon, emerging from his doctor’s office in San Diego, denounced us as socialists who were trying to create a problem when none existed.”

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/19/trumpcare-is-dead-single-payer-is-
the-only-real-answer-says-medicare-architect/ - SHINY

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Trump is running government like a business executive runs a business: He lets the military run its military operations, and the GOP Congress run domestic operations. He also expects results. This is a shock to DC and the Pentagon, who expect to spin their excuses and confabulations endlessly while nestling cozily in the bosom of a political party.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND: I see YOU continue the DNC policy of endless bellyaching about Trump. But yanno, it doesn't matter. It will be no more successful, in the end, than the GOP's policy of endless bellyaching about Obama.

Keep at it. You'll never see the cliff.

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It is not bellyaching.- SECOND

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Trump has been submissive to the congressional GOP’s health care agenda.= SECOND

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Trump is running government like a business executive runs a business: He lets the military run its military operations, and the GOP Congress run domestic operations. He also expects results. This is a shock to DC and the Pentagon, who expect to spin their excuses and confabulations endlessly while nestling cosily in the bosom of a political party.

For YEARS the GOP has been bellyaching about Obamacare. Now, the responsibility is in their hands ... and they bobbled it. What have they been doing the past seven years, besides complaining? Nothing, apparently. No preparation, no plan.

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A President got us into this mess: Nixon. The GOP keeps us there ever since.

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Max Fine is intimately familiar with Medicare — because he helped create it. Fine is the last surviving member of President Kennedy’s Medicare Task Force, and he was also President Johnson’s designated debunker against the health insurance industry.

Fine, now 91, wrote to The Intercept recently to explain that Medicare was never intended to cover only the elderly population, and that expanding it to everyone was a goal that its architects long campaigned for.

“Three years after the enactment of Medicare, in Dec. 1968, a Committee of 100 leading Americans was formed to campaign for single payer National Heath Insurance. The campaign leaders were UAW pres. Walter Reuther, Dr. Michael DeBakey, Nat. Urban League Pres Whitney Young and Mary Lasker, a leader in the formation and funding of NIH,” he wrote.

“The NY Times and other newspapers gave front page play to the announcement of the campaign for ‘Medicare for All’ but the Committee gained even more attention when, shortly before Xmas, pres-elect Nixon, emerging from his doctor’s office in San Diego, denounced us as socialists who were trying to create a problem when none existed.”

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/19/trumpcare-is-dead-single-payer-is-
the-only-real-answer-says-medicare-architect/ - SHINY

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And I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the DNC does not one whit better than the GOP. Oh, they'll complain endlessly about the GOP to score political points, but will they come up with a plan??? DOUBTFUL.

But, hey SHINY! If the Dems come up with a plan that could ACTUALLY WORK, let me know!

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake
THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I get that the trajectory of Obamacare is in the wrong direction.

But if it implodes ... what then? Or should Congress move itself to fix the problem BEFORE it becomes catastrophic?

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake
THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one

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Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
We're past 8 months now of severe bellyaching from the left. It's quite pathetic actually.

The ACA will die with or without the Republicans killing it. They just have to sit back and let the premiums continue to increase 30% every year until the middle class would opt to go without insurance and pay the tax penalty because it's too expensive to purchase.

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. Despite the evidence that a single-payer system would be a more efficient and cheaper choice, introducing it in the US is not a serious option. Trying to dismantle the current system would be a mammoth task. For one thing, it would cost a great many jobs: Health- and life-insurance companies employ some 800,000 people, with yet more employed by the medical industry just to deal with insurance companies. Though the savings from eliminating them could be invested in retraining those people for other professions, it would be difficult for any party to convince voters that it’s a necessary step.

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Quote:

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And with a market worth more than $3 trillion, drug firms, medical providers, and health technology companies have an incentive to maintain a system that lets them set prices instead of negotiating with a single government payer. Both the GOP and the Democratic party are under the influence of the medical-industrial complex: In 2016, hospitals and nursing homes contributed over $95 million to electoral campaigns in the US, and the pharmaceutical sector gave nearly $250 million.

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Originally posted by second:

Quote:

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Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
We're past 8 months now of severe bellyaching from the left. It's quite pathetic actually.

The ACA will die with or without the Republicans killing it. They just have to sit back and let the premiums continue to increase 30% every year until the middle class would opt to go without insurance and pay the tax penalty because it's too expensive to purchase.

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6stringJoker, if I was 63 years old I could be paying $1,000 per month to Blue Cross Blue Shield of Texas or at 65 years old I could pay a total of $200 per month to Medicare Part A, B and D and UnitedHealthCare for supplemental insurance. Which is the better deal? Keep in mind that Blue Cross will want $1300 per month when I'm 64 because I am a worse risk than at 63. Medicare does not raise my rates just because I grow older and riskier.

It would be smart for the Republicans to run Blue Cross Blue Shield out of the business and let Medicare take over all health care costs. Of course, employer provided insurance would become extinct and the tax deduction for that insurance would also become extinct. The money that once went to pay those two extinct costs are how you pay for Medicare for All.

www.forbes.com/sites/kotlikoff/2016/02/17/how-a-sanders-medicare-for-a
ll-plan-can-be-affordable-and-appeal-to-republicans

https://health.purpleplans.org/

President Kennedy said, "Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."

Were he with us today, he would not sit silent while Washington continues to do too little too late.

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Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

Obamacare is not Medicare for All. I'm talking about the death of Obamacare bringing itself about.

I wish Kennedy were around today too. He got killed because he actually gave a shit, unlike any president in my lifetime.

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My point was that Medicare for All would be cheaper than Blue Cross Blue Shield of Texas. We ended up with Obamacare rather than getting closer to Medicare for All because of Senator Joe Lieberman ...- SECOND

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... But with Obama’s blessing, the Senate, through its Finance Committee, took a different tack, and became the fulcrum for a potential grand bargain on health reform. Chairman Max Baucus, in the spring of 2009, signaled his desire to find a bipartisan compromise, working especially closely with Grassley, his dear friend and Republican counterpart, who had been deeply involved in crafting the Republican alternative to Clintoncare. Baucus and Grassley convened an informal group of three Democrats and three Republicans on the committee, which became known as the “Gang of Six.” They covered the parties’ ideological bases; the other GOPers were conservative Mike Enzi of Wyoming and moderate Olympia Snowe of Maine, and the Democrats were liberal Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico and moderate Kent Conrad of North Dakota.

Baucus very deliberately started the talks with a template that was the core of the 1993-4 Republican plan, built around an individual mandate and exchanges with private insurers — much to the chagrin of many Democrats and liberals who wanted, if not a single-payer system, at least one with a public insurance option ...

Obama could have moved earlier to blow the whistle on the faux negotiations; he did not, as he held out hope that a plan that was fundamentally built on Republican ideas would still, in the end, garner at least some Republican support ...

.... when the crucial votes came in the Senate, in late December 2009, Harry Reid succeeded in the near-impossible feat of getting all 60 Democrats, from Socialist Bernie Sanders and liberal Barbara Boxer to conservatives Joe Lieberman, Ben Nelson, Mark Pryor, and Blanche Lincoln, to vote for cloture, to end the Republican filibuster, and to pass their version of the bill.

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by second:
Signym, your explanation is long-winded bullshit. When the Democrats had control of Congress in 2009, Joe Lieberman killed Medicare For All all by himself. Joe has since been interviewed to become Trump’s next head of the FBI. He didn’t get the job, but you know where Joe’s heart is. And all the Republicans, all the time, have called Medicare For All to be communism. Joe and the Republicans made the World we live in with their constant “NO!” votes for any improvement. It is not a secret. It’s out in the open what they do and why they do it. When you vote for those guys, that is what you get: NO! votes. If there was fewer than 41 Republican Senators and Joe Lieberman types, there would be a chance for change. If 41 or more there is no chance.

www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/prescriptions/2009/10/did_lie
berman_just_kill_the_public_option.html


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Her endless "Bill, Hillary, Obama" deflections. Her other posts today are the same.

She's an obedient little stooge.

==============================

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Originally posted by second:

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Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

Obamacare is not Medicare for All. I'm talking about the death of Obamacare bringing itself about.

I wish Kennedy were around today too. He got killed because he actually gave a shit, unlike any president in my lifetime.

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Kennedy got killed because he insisted on riding with the top down rather than listen to the Secret Service who wanted the top up on the limo. It was Texas, Kennedy was hated by Texans because he was a Democrat, he was begging to be shot dead. And so it happened.

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My point was that Medicare for All would be cheaper than Blue Cross Blue Shield of Texas. We ended up with Obamacare rather than getting closer to Medicare for All because of Senator Joe Lieberman, who would later endorse Republican John McCain and more recently be interviewed by Trump for FBI head. Lieberman screwed the Democrats, his former political party. Half a loaf is better than none and Obamacare was the half-ass loaf that could be passed over the opposition of every fucking Republican and despite Lieberman sabotaging it. He was the absolutely necessary 60th Senator who broke the Republican plan to filibuster Obamacare.

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Deflect, deflect, deflect. That is, as you know, the new mantra of our dear friends who either worship orange people or people from foreign countries at the expense of our values and way of life.

I know, that was a bit long-winded, but you know what I mean. - SHINY

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Broke And Bleeding Cash, DNC Ends June $3.3 Million In Debt

... DNC Chair Tom Perez recently sent out a fundraising email to supporters claiming, “I know garbage when I see it,” citing that he once worked on a dump truck. It’s ironic that he referred to the GOP health care bill as a “flaming dumpster fire” because he has been presiding over the disaster that is the Democratic National Committee. The organization reported that May 2017 was its worst fundraising month since the Iraq War in 2003, and April 2017 was its worst fundraising month since 2009. In May, the DNC also reported that it has $1.9 million in debt. Despite the fact that former Secretary of Labor Tom Perez was recruited by Barack Obama to appease the party’s donors, lobbyists and PACs, even they have refused to prop up the failing brand.

... Not approving of the strategies laid out at a retreat for donors in January 2017, billionaires Mark Pincus and Reid Hoffman started their own political organization, Win the Future. As donors are increasingly tired of seeing their investments go to waste, many have started their own funds or used their access to take over leadership positions themselves—such as Florida billionaire donor Stephen Bittel did to become the Florida Democratic Party chair earlier this year. Democratic billionaire J.B. Pritzker is running for governor of Illinois, and billionaire Tom Steyer is debating running for governor of California. Haim Saban and James Simons poured millions into Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign, but they have yet to be listed by the FEC as DNC donors in 2017. Additionally, George Soros has only given $33,900 to the DNC in 2017, but he poured millions of dollars into the Democratic Party in 2016.

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Additionally, George Soros has only given $33,900 to the DNC in 2017...

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Additionally, George Soros has only given $33,900 to the DNC in 2017... - SIGNY

Why such a strange number? That's probably less than he spends per year on hand woven toilet paper.

If that's a legitimate number, he must be sending the DNC a message with it. I wonder what it is? I wonder how the message would be different than just not giving them any money at all. - SIX

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SHITTY
You're as much of a lying drunken troll as THUGGR is a lying stupid one.
I challenge you to find me saying one good thing about Trump OR Putin.
Just one.
And if you, and SLOPPY SECONDS are the best example of the democrat home team, god help you. And the country. Because we're hosed.- KIKI

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Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

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Originally posted by second:

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Originally posted by 6stringJoker:

Obamacare is not Medicare for All. I'm talking about the death of Obamacare bringing itself about.

I wish Kennedy were around today too. He got killed because he actually gave a shit, unlike any president in my lifetime.

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Kennedy got killed because he insisted on riding with the top down rather than listen to the Secret Service who wanted the top up on the limo. It was Texas, Kennedy was hated by Texans because he was a Democrat, he was begging to be shot dead. And so it happened.

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You really have a screwed up point of view on the world and on people if you really believe this. I'm not even going to get into any theories about why Kennedy was shot because that would be a thread all on its own and it's all been said before.

You really believe that Kennedy was shot simply because Texans hate Democrats that much?

You have to be joking, so I'm not going to take it that you seriously meant this. Kennedy was nothing like the corrupt Democrats of the last 30 years. If you actually believe that Republicans killed him just because, than no wonder you talk like you do in here everyday.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Deflect, deflect, deflect. That is, as you know, the new mantra of our dear friends who either worship orange people or people from foreign countries at the expense of our values and way of life.

I know, that was a bit long-winded, but you know what I mean. - SHINY

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No, I don't know what you mean. What IS "our way of life"? Getting reamed in the ass by insurances and big pharma? Invading and destabilizing every nation in sight? Giving up all of our power to the elites? Following a political party (ANY political party) blindly?

Look, I know it's fashionable to blame everything on "Republicans" (or "Russians") but, seriously .... HILLARY?? I expect better of my representatives, especially Democrats, but Obama frittered away a historic opportunity and the DNC compounded the problem.

But OK, fine... let it all come crashing down. Don't expect the Dems to stand for anything, if you think that's the answer to our problems.

SIX: SECOND has got a mania about Texas Republicans as The Cause of All the World's Problems. Apparently they're the biggest thing is his world.


-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake
THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one

---