REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

TRUMP - Just because.....................Naw, I just can't say it!

POSTED BY: SHINYGOODGUY
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 23, 2024 11:14
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Monday, October 24, 2016 3:59 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I hope you don't want a point by point agreement from me for all your facts.

second, I USED to look for a reasonable, fact-based discussion from you. But after you had a lie forcibly stripped off of you, you immediately returned to lying in your very next post. So now I know without a shadow of a doubt, you're so inherently dishonest you're incapable of any even moderately fact-based discussion at all.

Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Monday, October 24, 2016 4:30 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So, I had an interesting talk with a guy at the restaurant. We're both regulars, and in fact his wife was too, so we've run across each other now and then, and have had many discussions going back at least a decade.

A bit about Bob. He's a smart guy, Vietnam vet, with a couple decades of military service behind him. And fortunately he didn't come back so damaged he was unable to make his way in society. With a good head on his shoulders he's about as financially secure as anyone in our strata of society can be. Though, as with many people our age, he has a certain number of health issues, which have taken their toll on his energy and time, at least. Also, sadly for him, his wife passed away from a second bout of breast cancer a couple of years ago. It was unhappy to see him come in, order breakfast alone, sit with his head down, not talking to anyone, sometimes blinking away tears. He did that for almost 2 years. He was obviously grieving deeply. But he seems to have gotten re-engaged with life, which is good to see.

Anyway, he is personally libertarian, and somewhat conservative, most especially about gun rights. As far as he's concerned, he doesn't care about race, sexual orientation, religion, even drug use (he includes alcohol in that) up until you get in a car or do something that puts other people at risk. But the libertarian in him wants government to go away, while the conservative in him makes him, frankly, kind of a gun nut. As a political person, he's consistently voted secular moderate republican on account of being mostly a single-issue (gun) voter.

So we have many areas of agreement and disagreement.

We had an at length discussion about politics. He used to work at Los Alamos, and unequivocally stated that it's impossible for a president to single-handedly launch a nuclear missile just on their say-so. And he castigated hillary deeply for promoting that falsehood. He also agreed with me that she will bring us to war with Russia. He also said that when it came to internal politics, it was his belief that neither candidate as president would be able to keep their domestic promises. 'They don't have enough power. In my opinion, neither of them do.'

I asked him 'who are you going to vote for?' And to sum it up, he said 'neither'. Or, as he later reiterated, but more vehemently 'if you put a gun to my head and told me I'd have to pick one or the other I'd say 'just shoot me now.'' He also said in several different ways, 'it was different 40 years ago, but now the only difference between democrats and republicans is the spelling'. And 'they're just about listening to the big money.' And also 'I blame the people for the way things are.'

But he mentioned, more than once, how completely disgusted he was with both candidates. The word 'disgusted' came up often.

It was interesting that a lifelong republican can't vote for their candidate, while a lifelong democrat can't vote for their candidate, either.

Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Monday, October 24, 2016 4:54 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECOND, since you seem to deal mostly in cartoons, here are a few for you










Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Tuesday, October 25, 2016 2:45 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


"What has not changed is I still don't want Trump as President"

Let's look at it another way Second: Let's look at the possibility that Americans, the group that are your average Americans, don't believe that
Trump is the answer despite the "facts" about Hillary. He has not presented
his case sufficiently to convince the undecided and middle of the road voters
that he is the answer.

Trump showed his true colors and the people, the rational thinkers of this country, stood firm in their belief in the system as we have come to know it. They were not swayed by the outrageous rhetoric and pseudo reform crap of the Trumpeters. Establishment buster my ass! He was out for Number 1 and that is that; it was as plain as vanilla ice cream.

Bottom line: Hillary will win, warts and all. "Take a whiff, cause she's the shit."

There's no denying that people are angry, but it's all smoke and mirrors folks. The real deal is that this country is turning brown and people are losing their minds about the shift in power. It is inevitable and, like the immigrants that first set foot in this country and slowly took over, the "natives" must now adapt to the change in climate.


SGG

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Tuesday, October 25, 2016 3:04 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


How will you feel when the US and Russia start shooting at each other directly instead of at each other's proxies?

Or are you so invested in being brown on the outside you've forgotten that everybody bleeds red from the inside?

Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Tuesday, October 25, 2016 7:24 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two



Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
We had an at length discussion about politics. He used to work at Los Alamos, and unequivocally stated that it's impossible for a president to single-handedly launch a nuclear missile just on their say-so. And he castigated hillary deeply for promoting that falsehood. He also agreed with me that she will bring us to war with Russia.
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
How will you feel when the US and Russia start shooting at each other directly instead of at each other's proxies?
How do you feel when your predictions don't come true? Get beyond thankful and feelings of relief.

www.gocomics.com/nickanderson/2016/10/25

For 1kiki, a Lock Her Up comic:
www.gocomics.com/nickanderson/2016/09/14



The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, October 27, 2016 9:12 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by G:

You really think Hillary is more of a threat in that regard than W was? Or are you just lying?
From Scientific American:
Liar, Liar: How the Brain Adapts to Telling Tall Tales

As the U.S. presidential campaign has highlighted, the more a person lies, the easier it seems to become. But politics is not the only realm where dishonesty abounds. In 1996 Bernard Bradstreet, co-chief executive of the technology company Kurzweil Applied Intelligence was sentenced to jail for fraud. His initial transgressions were relatively minor: To boost quarterly accounts he allowed sales that had not quite been closed to go on the books. But before long customers' signatures were being forged, documents altered and millions of dollars in fake sales reported—allowing the company to show profits when it was losing money while investors paid millions for company stocks. Similar tales emerged after the Enron scandal, one of the largest bankruptcy cases in U.S. history.

Anecdotal reports of dishonesty escalating over time are common, so a team of researchers from University College London (U.C.L.) and Duke University decided to investigate. “Whether it’s evading taxes, being unfaithful, doping in sports, making up data or committing financial fraud, deceivers often recall how small acts of dishonesty snowballed over time,” U.C.L. neuroscientist Tali Sharot, the work’s senior author, told members of the press during a teleconference last Friday. The team's findings, published today in Nature Neuroscience, confirm in a laboratory setting that dishonesty grows with repetition. The researchers also used brain imaging to reveal a neural mechanism that may help explain why.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/liar-liar-how-the-brain-adapts-to-t
elling-tall-tales/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, October 28, 2016 7:21 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by G:

SIGNYM: "The ability to lie convincingly is the mark of an actor ... or a sociopath. The rather disturbing conclusion I reach from this example ... and pretty much most of human history ... is that most people love to be lied to, as long as it's a story they're used to hearing."

Telling in many ways, that. Personally, I like my fiction in an easy to recognize media format, not in RL.
Will the following Trump plan work? It is exactly the kind of story Trump voters would believe with all their hearts and souls. Make America Great Again — for Free! (Will Trump's voters read the fine print in this deal? No. Those voters will pay road tolls and bridge tolls to the extremely wealthy and Trump's children, if they go into the bridge building business, until the bridges fall down. That is what "Great" means to Trump.)

Donald Trump believes the United States can get $1 trillion in new roads — for free
www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/27/donald-trump-believes-a
merica-can-get-1-trillion-in-new-roads-for-free/

Donald Trump has finally released a plan to pump $1 trillion of new infrastructure spending into the U.S. economy.

He says it won't cost taxpayers a dime.
http://peternavarro.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/infrastruc
turereport.pdf

Trump would push Congress to authorize $137 billion in tax credits for construction companies looking to build new toll roads, toll bridges or any other sort of infrastructure project that has a revenue stream attached to it. (The revenue is critical, in that it generates a return to the private builder of the project.)

The advisers behind the plan, Wilbur Ross and Peter Navarro, calculate that the tax credits would leverage $167 billion in investment by the companies that receive them, who would in turn borrow money on the private market to finance up to $1 trillion in total spending. That spending, then, would create jobs, with wages that would be taxed, and corporate profits, which also would be taxed.

Ross and Navarro calculate the added tax revenue would be enough to pay for the total cost of the tax credits, which means the overall cost to the government would be . . . nothing. They contrast that to Democrat Hillary Clinton's infrastructure plan, which is funded in part by business tax increases.

Alan Cole, an economist at the independent Tax Foundation, said the proposal likely overrates the amount of tax revenue that would be generated by the private spending, partly because it appears to assume that every worker on the infrastructure projects was not working — or paying income taxes — previously.

Still, he said, “this is not unusually out of the mainstream, particularly for a Trump proposal.”

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, October 28, 2016 11:13 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


The GOP has decided to not confirm anyone Hillary suggests for Supreme Court. We will see if the GOP goes through with it.

www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/us/article/White-House-pans-Cru
z-pitch-for-smaller-Supreme-10418399.php

Campaigning in Colorado this week, Texas U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz road-tested the idea of a shrunken Supreme Court - effectively blocking any justice picked by Democrat Hillary Clinton should she win the presidential election.

The idea has picked up steam in conservative circles as Donald Trump's campaign has fallen behind in the polls, alarming Republicans who fear the first liberal Supreme Court majority since the 1970s.

It also signals that the GOP blockade on nominee Merrick Garland, President Barack Obama's pick to replace the late Antonin Scalia, will continue past the Nov. 8 election.

Cruz, campaigning Wednesday for a Republican Senate candidate in Colorado, stirred the political pot by suggesting that Republicans could block a Democratic president from filling a Supreme Court vacancy indefinitely.

"There will be plenty of time for debate on that issue," Cruz said. "There is long historical precedent for a Supreme Court with fewer justices. … That's a debate that we are going to have."

"I just want the people to remember: United States Supreme Court," Trump told Pat Robertson's Christian Broadcasting Network in a transcript released Thursday. "Whether they love me or like me or don't like me, we're going to put great justices, pro-life justices, we're going to put Second Amendment justices and I think for the evangelicals it's so important that they get out and vote."

But with Clinton leading in most major polls, and time running out for a Trump comeback, Republicans have begun to talk about ways to stop her from appointing a ninth justice who could tip the ideological balance of the court.

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott joined the fray Thursday, praising Cruz on Twitter: "@SenTedCruz: GOP may block Supreme Court nominees indefinitely," he tweeted. "This may be only way to save the Constitution."

Cruz's rhetorical shot across the bow follows that of Arizona U.S. Sen. John McCain, who said earlier this month that Republicans would be "united" in blocking any Clinton nomination. He later backed off those remarks, but the issue has taken on a life of its own.

Cruz's position takes on added significance because he is a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, which gets first crack at Supreme Court nominations. The committee's chairman, Iowa Republican Chuck Grassley, has taken a softer tone, telling reporters last week that "we can't simply stonewall" Clinton judicial appointments.

Texas U.S. Sen. John Cornyn, the No. 2 Republican in the Senate, also sits on the judiciary panel. He has said nothing about any prospective Clinton nominees. He has made it clear only that there is no chance the Senate will consider Garland's nomination in the upcoming lame-duck session of Congress.

The impasse over Garland and the possibility of future gridlock if Clinton gains the White House also is likely to spark a new partisan battle over the super-majority requirement for approving judges or overriding a filibuster, which currently stands at 60 votes.

Diminished activism

As questions about the Supreme Court have intensified in the presidential election, a number of conservative analysts have laid out the theoretical underpinnings for a GOP blockade. Michael Paulsen, a professor at the University of St. Thomas Law School in Minneapolis, argued in a National Review article last week that Congress could pass a law reducing the Supreme Court from nine to six seats. "A smaller court means diminished judicial activism," he wrote.

Ilya Shapiro, a legal scholar at the libertarian Cato Institute in Washington, wrote an essay in the Federalist this week arguing that Republicans would be in their rights to ignore or vote down any Clinton appointee with whom they disagree. "As a matter of constitutional law," he wrote, "the Senate is fully within its powers to let the Supreme Court die out, literally."

In an interview, Shapiro said that voters are the ultimate backstop. "If the voters think they're acting in bad faith, or if they don't agree with the reason why they're doing it, then they can vote them out."

The Constitution is silent on the size of the Supreme Court, and the number of justices is set by Congress. The first high court was composed of six members. It has fluctuated throughout history - usually depending on the number of federal circuits - but it has stood at nine since 1869.

Case for larger court

Constitutional scholar Jonathan Turley of George Washington University said the high court's current size - one of the smallest in the world - is more a matter of "happenstance" than reasoned debate. He long has argued to increase its size, perhaps to as high as 19, to reduce judicial power and de-emphasize the importance of any one judicial pick.

"Ever since we went to nine justices, we've been plagued by the problem of a 'swing' justice," Turley said. "The court effectively becomes a court of one, and, obviously, that problem is going to increase if you reduce your count even further.

"Justices have become too important," Turley continued, "and so the political system shuts down."

President Franklin D. Roosevelt, clashing with the Supreme Court over the New Deal, sought unsuccessfully in 1937 to appoint six additional justices.

Turley and other legal scholars say that while there may be legitimate reasons to reconfigure the size of the court, immediate political expediency should not be one of them.

"With all due respect to all these people, it just looks partisan," said Carl Tobias, a law professor at the University of Richmond. "That's the problem."

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, October 28, 2016 12:48 PM

THGRRI


Why it is so many republicans claim they love the constitution while they go about trying to destroy this republic? Ted Cruz thinks it is OK to suggest he is right in blocking Supreme Court nominees. It is something we have been doing in this country for hundreds of years. If Clinton wins then Clinton wins. She picks and the Senate advises and confirms. Cruz conveniently forgets that a Clinton win means the people voted for her to make the choice. He also forgets that he made his pitch to the American people and they said no thanks. His own party said no thanks.

____________________________________________

Russia trolls get contract extension
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60719

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Friday, October 28, 2016 1:30 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Why it is so many republicans claim they love the constitution while they go about trying to destroy this republic? Ted Cruz thinks it is OK to suggest he is right in blocking Supreme Court nominees. It is something we have been doing in this country for hundreds of years. If Clinton wins then Clinton wins. She picks and the Senate advises and confirms. Cruz conveniently forgets that a Clinton win means the people voted for her to make the choice. He also forgets that he made his pitch to the American people and they said no thanks. His own party said no thanks.
After Trump, congressional Republicans plan to keep doing the same thing Trump is now doing. The GOP's purpose in Congress is NOT to govern, but to destroy the Democrats. The USA can collapse for all the GOP cares, so long as the Democrats get the blame.

Rep. Jason Chaffetz of Utah is voting for but not endorsing Trump, while promising to undertake “years” of investigations: not of future wrongdoing that he thinks Clinton might engage in but of past pseudo-scandals that have already been thoroughly aired.

“Even before we get to Day One, we’ve got two years’ worth of material already lined up,” Chaffetz told the Washington Post’s David Weigel. “She has four years of history at the State Department, and it ain’t good.” Chaffetz ain't good.

Perhaps nothing in the history of American government has been more thoroughly investigated than Hillary Clinton’s four-year tenure as Secretary of State. Seven different investigations were mounted into Benghazi alone, but when none of them turned up any wrongdoing, House Republicans decided to convene an eighth investigation — a special select committee designated exclusively to Benghazi.

As Kevin McCarthy, the number two House Republican, explained, the purpose of the eighth investigation was to harm Clinton’s presidential campaign. As he told Sean Hannity in September 2015:

“What you’re going to see is a conservative speaker, that takes a conservative Congress, that puts a strategy to fight and win. And let me give you one example. Everybody thought Hillary Clinton was unbeatable, right?”

“But we put together a Benghazi special committee. A select committee. What are her numbers today? Her numbers are dropping. Why? Because she’s untrustable. But no one would have known that any of that had happened had we not fought to make that happen.”

This eighth investigation also found no wrongdoing. But in a sense, all the various Benghazi inquiries did bear fruit because they led to the revelation of Clinton’s private email server. That in turn spawned an extensive FBI investigation that also found no crime. In total, these investigations cost about $30 million in taxpayer funds, according to Ciro Scotti of the Fiscal Times.

By contrast, something like Wells Fargo creating hundreds of thousands of fake bank accounts merited a single hearing by one House committee.

Chaffetz runs the House Oversight Committee, so doing investigations is absolutely his job. If Clinton’s administration does not generate an investigation-worthy controversy or two, I would be shocked. But he’s not saying he will investigation fresh accusations of wrongdoing. He’s saying that after tens of millions of dollars have already been spent investigating Clinton’s State Department years and after Clinton wins an election in which the fruits of those investigations were a major issue, he wants to go investigate them again.

www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/28/13427462/congress-gop-obstr
uction

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, October 28, 2016 2:28 PM

THGRRI


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Why it is so many republicans claim they love the constitution while they go about trying to destroy this republic? Ted Cruz thinks it is OK to suggest he is right in blocking Supreme Court nominees. It is something we have been doing in this country for hundreds of years. If Clinton wins then Clinton wins. She picks and the Senate advises and confirms. Cruz conveniently forgets that a Clinton win means the people voted for her to make the choice. He also forgets that he made his pitch to the American people and they said no thanks. His own party said no thanks.


After Trump, congressional Republicans plan to keep doing the same thing Trump is now doing. The GOP's purpose in Congress is NOT to govern, but to destroy the Democrats. The USA can collapse for all the GOP cares, so long as the Democrats get the blame.


If they chose to go that route ( which I am sure they will ) they will have to accept Trumps policies on trade and many other issues. And that ain't gonna happen. So again they will be at odds with Trumps supporters. Which means they continue to alienate their constituents.

Trump showed himself to be unacceptable to be president. Any populist republican who was not crazy would have beaten Clinton. She is a one termer if she does not consider those voters going forward.

____________________________________________

Russia trolls get contract extension
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60719

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Saturday, October 29, 2016 11:00 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


If this is directed at me, don't worry, SHIT I'm ready and I know where to point my gun. All I have to do is point at the first ORANGE motherfucker that comes my way. EVERYBODY BLEEDS RED!!!

This should be fun, LAST Motherfucker standing WINS!


SGG


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
How will you feel when the US and Russia start shooting at each other directly instead of at each other's proxies?

Or are you so invested in being brown on the outside you've forgotten that everybody bleeds red from the inside?

Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Sunday, October 30, 2016 12:32 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Poor baby. Did that little lesson in reality drive you to incoherence? Or is that your natural state?

In any case, poor baby here seems to not understand that a nuclear confrontation with Russia 'trumps' every other negative possibility there is.

I TOLD YOU SO will be very sweet indeed, and repeated often.

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Sunday, October 30, 2016 6:34 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Poor baby. Did that little lesson in reality drive you to incoherence? Or is that your natural state?

In any case, poor baby here seems to not understand that a nuclear confrontation with Russia 'trumps' every other negative possibility there is.
It’s probably true that Trump, given his pro-Russia line, would be somewhat less likely than Clinton to immediately stumble into confrontation with Vladimir Putin over Syria. But it’s silly to imagine Moscow slipping into a comfortable détente with a President Trump; Putin is more likely to pocket concessions and keep pushing, testing the orange-haired dealmaker at every opportunity and leaving Trump poised, very dangerously, between overreaction and his least-favorite position — looking weak.

That’s just Russia: From the Pacific Rim to the Middle East, revisionist powers will set out to test Trump’s capacity to handle surprise, hostile actors will seek to exploit the undoubted chaos of his White House, and with his promised pivot to mercantilism and trade war, our allies will build American fecklessness into their strategic plans. And again, all of this is likely to happen without Trump doing the wilder things he’s kind-of sort-of pledged to do — demanding tribute from allies, trying to “take the oil,” etc. He need only be himself in order to bring an extended period of risk upon the world.

The history of geopolitics prior to the Pax Americana is rife with examples of why this sort of testing should be feared. Overall, Trump’s foreign policy hazing, his rough introduction to machtpolitik, promises more danger for global stability — still a real and valuable thing, recent crises notwithstanding — than the risks incurred by George W. Bush’s interventionism, Barack Obama’s attempt at offshore balancing, or (yes) Hillary Clinton’s possible exposure of classified material to the Chinese, the Russians and Anthony Weiner’s sexting partners.

The Dangers of Donald Trump
Ross Douthat OCT. 29, 2016
www.nytimes.com/2016/10/30/opinion/sunday/the-dangers-of-donald-trump.
html

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Sunday, October 30, 2016 6:57 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Dear America
Please do not elect that badly shaved angry orangutan as president.

Thank you
The rest of the world

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Sunday, October 30, 2016 11:21 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


It’s probably true that Trump, given his pro-Russia line, would be somewhat less likely than Clinton to immediately stumble into confrontation with Vladimir Putin over Syria.

FINALLY ! The inklings of a breakthrough!

Though it doesn't go nearly far enough. It's not just Syria.

Remember, the pretext for nuclear arms in Europe was as a deterrent against Iran. But since the treaty, what is the new pretext? There is none. Nevertheless, NATO has installed nukes in new eastern European member countries. And in response to this clearly aggressive action on the part of NATO, Russia has deployed more troops on its western border.

https://www.nrdc.org/sites/default/files/euro.pdf
Piecing together evidence from an array of sources, the Natural Resources Defense
Council has determined that the United States is still deploying 480 nuclear weapons in Europe. That should come as a surprise. Until now, most observers believed that there were no more than half of those weapons still left on the continent. Declassified documents obtained under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act, military literature, the media, non-governmental organizations, and other sources show that the 480 bombs are stored at eight air bases in six NATO countries – a formidable arsenal larger than the entire Chinese nuclear stockpile.
... the limited combat range of the nuclear strike aircraft deployed in Europe probably requires some form of staging through Eastern European air bases to effectively engage targets in Russia.

https://www.newcoldwar.org/new-nato-threats-in-eastern-europe-as-polan
d-romania-to-install-u-s-missile-system/
Russia calls new U.S. missile defense system a ‘direct threat’ 2016
‘Certainly it’s a threat’: Moscow rejects NATO claims ABM site safe for Russia

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-11/nuclear-arms-race-back-russia
-furious-us-launches-european-ballistic-missile-shield
The Nuclear Arms Race Is Back: Russia Furious As US Launches European Ballistic Missile Shield


I TOLD YOU SO will be very sweet indeed, and repeated often.

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Monday, October 31, 2016 1:00 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


And btw, magon's, OF COURSE leaders around the globe are for hillary. Do you think that they aren't all grunting and nuzzling at the same global mega-corp teat?

And while hillary will win - she HAS to win - a loss would have been worse than Brexit. It would have been a crippling blow to their government/ corporate scam.

I TOLD YOU SO will be very sweet indeed, and repeated often.

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Monday, October 31, 2016 1:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Originally posted by MAGONSDAUGHTER:
Dear America
Please do not elect that badly shaved angry orangutan as president.
Thank you
The rest of the world


Poor Magons.

But somehow I feel that you aren't justified speaking for "the rest of the world", especially the targets of American aggression. They would probably beg to differ. The ones that survived, anyway.


Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Monday, October 31, 2016 4:53 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


I love the smell of guv'mint/korporate scam in the morning, don't you!?

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Monday, October 31, 2016 4:57 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


World domination by the NWO, controlled by the NEOCONS & bankrolled by the Russian/Syrian mob. Ah, the fun & games are just getting warmed up ladies & germs............just gettin' warmed up!

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Monday, October 31, 2016 5:17 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
World domination by the NWO, controlled by the NEOCONS & bankrolled by the Russian/Syrian mob. Ah, the fun & games are just getting warmed up ladies & germs............just gettin' warmed up!


YOU ... have totally lost it, my friend!


Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Monday, October 31, 2016 5:20 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Second, it is the biggest scam going. Years ago Senator William Proxmire would award what came to be known as The Golden Fleece Award for what he deemed wasteful spending. Perhaps that should be started up again, we could hand them out like Pez to the Repugnant Repubs who insist on wasting our tax dollars on such stupid shit as another Benghazi white wash.

Let's start with Ted Cruz and Chafe-etz. If Hillary wins, she'll get the remainder of the Obama treatment, and those assholes will continue getting paid and wasting money investigating Hillary. Plus they'll continue the obstructionists movement, the dickheads! Golden Fleeces all around.


SGG


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Why it is so many republicans claim they love the constitution while they go about trying to destroy this republic? Ted Cruz thinks it is OK to suggest he is right in blocking Supreme Court nominees. It is something we have been doing in this country for hundreds of years. If Clinton wins then Clinton wins. She picks and the Senate advises and confirms. Cruz conveniently forgets that a Clinton win means the people voted for her to make the choice. He also forgets that he made his pitch to the American people and they said no thanks. His own party said no thanks.
After Trump, congressional Republicans plan to keep doing the same thing Trump is now doing. The GOP's purpose in Congress is NOT to govern, but to destroy the Democrats. The USA can collapse for all the GOP cares, so long as the Democrats get the blame.

Rep. Jason Chaffetz of Utah is voting for but not endorsing Trump, while promising to undertake “years” of investigations: not of future wrongdoing that he thinks Clinton might engage in but of past pseudo-scandals that have already been thoroughly aired.

“Even before we get to Day One, we’ve got two years’ worth of material already lined up,” Chaffetz told the Washington Post’s David Weigel. “She has four years of history at the State Department, and it ain’t good.” Chaffetz ain't good.

Perhaps nothing in the history of American government has been more thoroughly investigated than Hillary Clinton’s four-year tenure as Secretary of State. Seven different investigations were mounted into Benghazi alone, but when none of them turned up any wrongdoing, House Republicans decided to convene an eighth investigation — a special select committee designated exclusively to Benghazi.

As Kevin McCarthy, the number two House Republican, explained, the purpose of the eighth investigation was to harm Clinton’s presidential campaign. As he told Sean Hannity in September 2015:

“What you’re going to see is a conservative speaker, that takes a conservative Congress, that puts a strategy to fight and win. And let me give you one example. Everybody thought Hillary Clinton was unbeatable, right?”

“But we put together a Benghazi special committee. A select committee. What are her numbers today? Her numbers are dropping. Why? Because she’s untrustable. But no one would have known that any of that had happened had we not fought to make that happen.”

This eighth investigation also found no wrongdoing. But in a sense, all the various Benghazi inquiries did bear fruit because they led to the revelation of Clinton’s private email server. That in turn spawned an extensive FBI investigation that also found no crime. In total, these investigations cost about $30 million in taxpayer funds, according to Ciro Scotti of the Fiscal Times.

By contrast, something like Wells Fargo creating hundreds of thousands of fake bank accounts merited a single hearing by one House committee.

Chaffetz runs the House Oversight Committee, so doing investigations is absolutely his job. If Clinton’s administration does not generate an investigation-worthy controversy or two, I would be shocked. But he’s not saying he will investigation fresh accusations of wrongdoing. He’s saying that after tens of millions of dollars have already been spent investigating Clinton’s State Department years and after Clinton wins an election in which the fruits of those investigations were a major issue, he wants to go investigate them again.

www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/28/13427462/congress-gop-obstr
uction

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, October 31, 2016 11:45 AM

THGRRI


Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Originally posted by MAGONSDAUGHTER:
Dear America
Please do not elect that badly shaved angry orangutan as president.
Thank you
The rest of the world


Poor Magons.

But somehow I feel that you aren't justified speaking for "the rest of the world", especially the targets of American aggression. They would probably beg to differ. The ones that survived, anyway.



STIGMA against the Rest of the World now - not surprising. Only STIGMA has the answers! When are you going to run for President and save us all?? When will it dawn on you that since WHOZIT left there's only one person who agrees with you? Can't wait to hear what you definition of intelligence is. *snort*


Russia has lost it's seat on the UN human rights council. Yet SIG is still focused on the United States as being the global bad guy. That says it all.

____________________________________________

Russia trolls get contract extension
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60719

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Monday, October 31, 2016 1:44 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Two experts say Donald Trump should be investigated for criminal tax evasion
by Matthew Yglesias, Oct 31, 2016, 1:00p
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/31/13474280/trump-foundation-c
riminal-charges

Various aspects of Trump's charity almost certainly violate the laws governing charities (he’s already been sanctioned by the state of New York), but several experts are also raising the question of whether Trump is guilty of criminal tax evasion. This is a difficult charge to prove, but the law requires the government to demonstrate knowledge and intent which means that scofflaws can often get off by pleading ignorance. But both Philip Hackney, a former IRS attorney now working as a professor of tax law, and Adam Chodorow, a tax law professor at Arizona State University, have written that the elements exist to at least begin an investigation.

Trump seems to have directed over $2 million in donations to his charity. That’s not illegal by any means, but “directed” donations are supposed to be reported to the IRS as personal income. How many of you reading this have a $2 million income over your entire life? Did you fail to report that income for all the years of your life?

Had Trump followed the precedent of the past 40 years worth of presidents and released his tax returns to the public, we could see if he followed the rule. He has not done so, and his campaign has been dodgy about answering reporters’ questions as to whether he reported income correctly.

Trump senior advisor Boris Epshteyn quietly admitting that Trump's income was not reported correctly, without admitting that the "mistake" was done with criminal intent by Trump.

Where Trump stands out from your average tax avoider, however, is that he claims to have an extraordinarily high level of US tax law.

At a rally in Pueblo Colorado, for example, he argued that he “brilliantly used” his understanding of the tax code to avoid personal income tax liability.

“I say we take him at his word,” Adam Chodorow of ASU Law School writes. “If I worked at the Internal Revenue Service, I would refer Trump to the Justice Department for a criminal investigation.”

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, October 31, 2016 1:59 PM

THGRRI


Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Russia has lost it's seat on the UN human rights council.


Russia against the world! Sounds familiar doesn't it?

I wonder if "learning" has any impact on "intelligence?"


Intelligence is defined as "The capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc." So the ability to learn would reveal intelligence and I would think enhance, ( develop ) ones intelligence.

I present this definition as evidence that our Russian trolls have none.

____________________________________________

Russia trolls get contract extension
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60719

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Monday, October 31, 2016 4:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Wow, THUGR, you went to an online dictionary and looked up the definition of "intelligence". That's probably the most learning you've done in 35 years!


Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Monday, October 31, 2016 4:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Russia has lost it's seat on the UN human rights council.
And Saudi Arabia has retained its seat. That tells me what a joke the process is.

Yes, the USA is the global bad guy. In the past 30 years, who has killed the most people?


Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Monday, October 31, 2016 8:50 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Yes, the USA is the global bad guy. In the past 30 years, who has killed the most people?
“The United States is extremely lucky that no honest, charismatic figure has arisen,” Noam Chomsky went on. “Every charismatic figure is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself, like McCarthy or Nixon or the evangelist preachers. If somebody comes along who is charismatic and honest this country is in real trouble because of the frustration, disillusionment, the justified anger and the absence of any coherent response. What are people supposed to think if someone says ‘I have got an answer, we have an enemy’? For Germany it was the Jews. Here it will be the illegal immigrants and the blacks. We will be told that white males are a persecuted minority. We will be told we have to defend ourselves and the honor of the nation. Military force will be exalted. People will be beaten up. This could become an overwhelming force. And if it happens it will be more dangerous than Germany. The United States is the world power. Germany was powerful but had more powerful antagonists. I don’t think all this is very far away. If the polls are accurate it is not the Republicans but the right-wing Republicans, the crazed Republicans, who will sweep the next election.”

“I have never seen anything like this in my lifetime,” Chomsky added. “I am old enough to remember the 1930s. My whole family was unemployed. There were far more desperate conditions than today. But it was hopeful. People had hope. The CIO was organizing. No one wants to say it anymore but the Communist Party was the spearhead for labor and civil rights organizing. Even things like giving my unemployed seamstress aunt a week in the country. It was a life. There is nothing like that now. The mood of the country is frightening. The level of anger, frustration and hatred of institutions is not organized in a constructive way. It is going off into self-destructive fantasies.”

“I listen to talk radio,” Chomsky said. “I don’t want to hear Rush Limbaugh. I want to hear the people calling in. They are like [suicide pilot] Joe Stack. What is happening to me? I have done all the right things. I am a God-fearing Christian. I work hard for my family. I have a gun. I believe in the values of the country and my life is collapsing.”

www.filmsforaction.org/articles/noam-chomsky-has-never-seen-anything-l
ike-this/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, October 31, 2016 9:16 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Added Sep 1st, 2015

So, not about Trump.

I TOLD YOU SO will be very sweet indeed, and repeated often.

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 6:32 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Added Sep 1st, 2015

So, not about Trump.
1kiki is wrong again. It turns out that Noam Chomsky was right about Trump when he foresaw in Sep 1st, 2015 that the Republicans would run a charismatic figure who is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself.

More about Trump:

Mike Pence promised during the vice presidential debate that Trump would release his tax returns. So far that promise has gone unfulfilled.

Voters are still in the dark about how much the Republican presidential candidate earns, how much he has donated to charity and how much he has paid in taxes. Beyond personal habits, voters still don’t know whether Trump has financial ties with foreign governments.

www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/05/mike-pence/pen
ces-false-claim-trump-hasnt-broken-tax-return-p/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 10:30 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by G:

We are an incredibly coddled and spoiled nation - very thin on ideals and maturity. Not too unlike Russia. A good butt whuppin' might do us both some good.

Sadly: We'll get who we deserve.
This spring, a group of computer scientists set out to determine whether hackers were interfering with the Trump campaign. They found something they weren’t expecting.
www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/10/was_a_ser
ver_registered_to_the_trump_organization_communicating_with_russia.html

Frank Foer reports on the very peculiar transmissions between a Trump computer and a computer owned by Alfa Bank—a Russian bank run by oligarchs close to Vladimir Putin. The transmissions began early this year, peaked in early August, and then abruptly ceased a few weeks ago when a New York Times reporter began inquiring about them.

“The parties were communicating in a secretive fashion. The operative word is secretive. This is more akin to what criminal syndicates do if they are putting together a project.” Put differently, the logs suggested that Trump and Alfa had configured something like a digital hotline connecting the two entities, shutting out the rest of the world, and designed to obscure its own existence. Over the summer, the scientists observed the communications trail from a distance.

Voters still don’t know whether Trump has financial ties with foreign governments because Trump has not released his income tax returns.


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 11:45 AM

THGRRI


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Added Sep 1st, 2015

So, not about Trump.
1kiki is wrong again. It turns out that Noam Chomsky was right about Trump when he foresaw in Sep 1st, 2015 that the Republicans would run a charismatic figure who is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself.

More about Trump:

Mike Pence promised during the vice presidential debate that Trump would release his tax returns. So far that promise has gone unfulfilled.

Voters are still in the dark about how much the Republican presidential candidate earns, how much he has donated to charity and how much he has paid in taxes. Beyond personal habits, voters still don’t know whether Trump has financial ties with foreign governments.

www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/05/mike-pence/pen
ces-false-claim-trump-hasnt-broken-tax-return-p/



1kiki's always wrong. That's because she's wrong headed.

____________________________________________

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 12:27 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Donald Trump used a dubious loophole to make millions in taxable income disappear.

His own lawyers thought it was dodgy.

We learned from Trump’s reaction to a different story about his tax-dodging that he had, in fact, gone years without paying federal income tax. But that gave rise to a new mystery. Trump did not have $1 billion in cash to lose. What happened is that his casinos went bankrupt and he secured massive relief from his creditors, making bondholders share in his misfortune.

Forgiven debts, however, are supposed to show up as taxable income. So how did Trump pull it off? New legal documents obtained by the New York Times indicate that Trump filed the transaction as a ‘‘debt for equity swap,’’ a move that allowed him to not count hundreds of millions of dollars in debt relief. His lawyers told him the IRS would probably not allow this move (and maybe it didn't), but we do know from legislative history that the loophole remained arguably on the books until Congress explicitly closed it in 1993.

Since Trump continues to refuse to engage in routine tax disclosure, it’s impossible to say exactly what happened after that. But the hint that he used a tax minimization strategy his lawyers advised against is further evidence that an investigation of his management of his foundation could lead to criminal charges. Trump in federal prison -- Sad!

www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/1/13485576/donald-trump-tax-lo
ophole

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 12:34 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
This spring, a group of computer scientists set out to determine whether hackers were interfering with the Trump campaign. They found something they weren’t expecting.
www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/10/was_a_ser
ver_registered_to_the_trump_organization_communicating_with_russia.html

Frank Foer reports on the very peculiar transmissions between a Trump computer and a computer owned by Alfa Bank—a Russian bank run by oligarchs close to Vladimir Putin. The transmissions began early this year, peaked in early August, and then abruptly ceased a few weeks ago when a New York Times reporter began inquiring about them. ...
Blah blah blah ....

Investigating Donald Trump, F.B.I. Sees No Clear Link to Russia
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/01/us/politics/fbi-russia-election-dona
ld-trump.html
Then either the FBI is lying, or they're incompetent.

Quote:
Alfa Bank—a Russian bank run by oligarchs close to Vladimir Putin
This is what the western financial media has to say about Alfa Bank's so-called "ties" to Putin
Not All Russian Billionaires Are Putin Cronies
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-03-05/not-all-russian-bil
lionaires-are-putin-cronies
I guess Bloomberg must be part of the conspiracy too!




Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 1:40 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Not ALL? So, 25%? 55%? How many? How would you know, how can you tell?- GSTRING


Why don't you read the article to find out?


Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 1:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
I have suspected Trump for being the prime suspect for voter tampering ever since the media reported him saying he suspected Hillary and the Dems would rig the election. It's the same "deflection method" that we see our resident Ruskies use when attacking other posters, They'll say, "You're a liar!" right after they've told a whopper. Deflect the thing you do by accusing others of doing it - a simple and obvious political chess move to most of us.- GSTRING


What kind of mechanism might they use? Are these machines vulnerable to internet hacks? If not, do they own or have connections to a company that makes voting machines? Or do they have a team of operatives which goes around the nation, tampering with the vote-counting equipment?

Or are you in the habit of dreaming up impossible conspiracies which have no possible means of being carried out?


Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 2:35 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Originally posted by 1kiki:
Added Sep 1st, 2015
So, not about Trump.
Originally posted by second:
1kiki is wrong again. It turns out that Noam Chomsky was right about Trump when he foresaw in Sep 1st, 2015 that the Republicans would run a charismatic figure who is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself.


Honey, you're lying, yet again. What IS it with you hillarities, anyway? Is this site the dumping ground for the pathologically dishonest?

WHAT CHOMSKY SAID:

“The United States is extremely lucky that no honest, charismatic figure has arisen,” Noam Chomsky went on. “Every charismatic figure is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself, like McCarthy or Nixon or the evangelist preachers. If somebody comes along who is charismatic and honest this country is in real trouble because of the frustration, disillusionment, the justified anger and the absence of any coherent response. What are people supposed to think if someone says ‘I have got an answer, we have an enemy’? For Germany it was the Jews. Here it will be the illegal immigrants and the blacks. We will be told that white males are a persecuted minority. We will be told we have to defend ourselves and the honor of the nation. Military force will be exalted. People will be beaten up. This could become an overwhelming force. And if it happens it will be more dangerous than Germany. The United States is the world power. Germany was powerful but had more powerful antagonists. I don’t think all this is very far away. If the polls are accurate it is not the Republicans but the right-wing Republicans, the crazed Republicans, who will sweep the next election.”

“I have never seen anything like this in my lifetime,” Chomsky added. “I am old enough to remember the 1930s. My whole family was unemployed. There were far more desperate conditions than today. But it was hopeful. People had hope. The CIO was organizing. No one wants to say it anymore but the Communist Party was the spearhead for labor and civil rights organizing. Even things like giving my unemployed seamstress aunt a week in the country. It was a life. There is nothing like that now. The mood of the country is frightening. The level of anger, frustration and hatred of institutions is not organized in a constructive way. It is going off into self-destructive fantasies.”

“I listen to talk radio,” Chomsky said. “I don’t want to hear Rush Limbaugh. I want to hear the people calling in. They are like [suicide pilot] Joe Stack. What is happening to me? I have done all the right things. I am a God-fearing Christian. I work hard for my family. I have a gun. I believe in the values of the country and my life is collapsing.”


Is Trump in there? In Chomsky's fears that an HONEST, CHARISMATIC FIGURE might arise?

You know, second, you read, you quote, but you obviously don't address the topics honestly, or even intelligently.

I TOLD YOU SO will be very sweet indeed, and repeated often.

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 3:34 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

Honey, you're lying, yet again. What IS it with you hillarities, anyway? Is this site the dumping ground for the pathologically dishonest?
A long story for 1kiki about the "reasons" for Peter Thiel's support of Trump:

www.theregister.co.uk/2016/10/31/thiel_on_trump_and_downtrodden_millio
naires/

31 Oct 2016 at 20:22, Kieren McCarthy

Billionaire venture capitalist and professional contrarian Peter Thiel hailed a new political reality this morning with another public endorsement of fellow billionaire Donald Trump just days before the US elections.

The Paypal cofounder and early Facebook investor travelled from Silicon Valley to Washington DC to hold a press conference, in which he warned at length that the entire country had gone down the wrong path. Just like Trump, however, he failed to move from diagnosis to cure and outline any actual proposals to fix things.

A worrying 64 percent of people over age 55 have less than a year’s worth of savings, Thiel warned. Healthcare is 10 times in the US what it is in the rest of the world. College tuition continues to rise above inflation. Incomes aren't moving. And the government is "wasting trillions of dollars" on wars.

What's he going to do about it as someone with access to huge amounts of capital and brainpower? Complain, of course.

"No matter what happens in this election, what Trump represents is not crazy, and it's not going away. He points to a new Republican Party beyond the dogmas of Reaganism," said Thiel, adding: "When the distracting spectacles of this election season are forgotten, the only important question will be whether or not that new politics came too late."

At a time when the political establishment has increasingly and publicly distanced itself from the Republican nominee following months of racist, sexist and other similarly offensive comments, it is perhaps unsurprising that Thiel – who relishes taking the opposite view to whatever becomes commonly accepted – has become a fervent supporter. He recently donated $1.25m to Trump's campaign.
Who's in Peter's file?

In 2012, Thiel supported Ron Paul for the presidency, then Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan when Ron Paul dropped out. That was a dead-end move. Next in 2016, Thiel supported Carly Fiorina; when she dropped out, Ted Cruz. Only when Cruz dropped out did Thiel express his support for Trump, later appearing on stage at the Republican convention to express his pride at being gay – to a political party that "supports traditional marriage."

In just one of a list of seemingly endless contradictions, Thiel's pride at being gay comes after tabloid rag Gawker told the world that he is indeed very gay – a decision that so infuriated him that he secretly funded a number of lawsuits, including Hulk Hogan's, against Gawker in an effort to bankrupt the online publication. He succeeded.

Asked specifically about that funding effort, Thiel argued that Hogan was not able to use the legal system properly himself because he was only "a single-digit millionaire." Thiel said:

If you're a single-digit millionaire like Hulk Hogan, you have no effective access to our legal system.

He also claimed that a number of journalists had told him privately that they supported his secret legal campaign against Gawker – a claim that, again, matches Trump's willingness to say whatever helps his argument at the time, regardless of whether it is based in reality.

As for his sexuality, Thiel was asked if he had asked Republicans behind the scenes if they would protect gay rights – in particular recent decisions on equality such as same-sex marriage. Thiel said he had not had any such conversations.
So... when Donald said...

Inevitably, Thiel faced a series of questions asking how he excused the enormous range of concerns against Trump. The religious test for immigrants aka Ban the Muslims? Thiel "wouldn't support the specific language that Trump has used."

The "grab 'em by the pussy" and related offensive remarks going back decades? They were in "extremely poor taste and extremely inappropriate" but, according to Thiel, Trump wouldn't say such things today. Trump's failure to follow long-standing precedent and release his tax returns? Thiel thinks the government is too focused on transparency.

The problem, according to Thiel, is that the media is taking what Trump says literally.

"I think one thing that should be distinguished here is the media is always taking Trump literally. They don't take him seriously, but they take him literally," he argued. "I think a lot of voters take Trump seriously but not literally. So when they hear things like the Muslim comment or the wall comment or things like that, the question is not 'are you going to build a wall like the Great Wall of China' or 'how exactly are you going to force these tests' – what they hear is we're going to have a saner, more sensible immigration policy?"

Of course, as many people have pointed out before now, taking the words that someone says and assuming that they meant them is pretty much how human communication works.

For example: Peter Thiel announced that he was going to sell all his shares in Facebook and spend hundreds of millions of dollars harvesting the blood from thousands of young gay men which he would then drink while naked.

Not literally of course. He didn't literally say that. He just has a lot shares in Facebook and has been investing in technology to inject young people's blood into older people as a way of keeping them young. We just added a few words about him selling the shares and harvesting blood and homosexuality.

"Nobody would suggest that Donald Trump is a humble man, but the big things that he is right about amount to a much-needed dose of humility," argued Thiel.
Why?

Thiel went on in a similar vein for some time. All of which begs the question: why is he doing this? It's hard to tell. Thiel has always been a private person, so his recent decision to put himself in a very public position at the height of an election campaign is truly odd behavior, even for him.

It is possible that Thiel is being contrary to his own nature. It is also highly probable that his taste for using his position and wealth to try to bring about change in the direction he wants things to move has become insatiable. And, with so few establishment figures actively supporting Trump, in the event that Trump actually does win the presidency, Thiel could find himself in a position of some influence.

Thiel certainly had a lot to say about himself during the conference, spending long chunks of time dissecting his own wisdom and insight in a way that only politicians, billionaires and the clinically insane are really capable of.

Of course the other question is: why are we even listening to the views of Peter Thiel, especially when it has little or nothing to do with his area of expertise – technology?

And the answer to that is the same that has given us Donald Trump in the first place: the strange fascination society has for people willing to say the unsayable and stick by their comments regardless of fact, reason or self-reflection.

In just over a week, we will find out whether Thiel and Trump's particular brand of contradictory fear mongering is something that the US is going to have to endure for four years, or whether we can all go back to mocking – and ignoring – egomaniacal billionaires.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 4:02 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Strawman, in the pantheon of DISHONEST ARGUMENTS! Your specialty.

You write about Chomsky. I write about Chomsky. So you QUOTE ME me writing about CHOMSKY and YOU write about --- Peter Thiel!

I TOLD YOU SO will be very sweet indeed, and repeated often.

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Why do you accuse me of lying because of your ignorance?

Didn't you hear about previous testimony, under oath, where a software engineer admitted to inserting fraudulent code into touchscreen voting machines?

Haven't you heard about the connection between Karl Rove and tech guru Michael Connell in 2004? Didn't you know that Mr Connell died in a "plane crash" after being deposed about his vote-counting server?


Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:09 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

Strawman, in the pantheon of DISHONEST ARGUMENTS! Your specialty.

You write about Chomsky. I write about Chomsky. So you QUOTE ME me writing about CHOMSKY and YOU write about --- Peter Thiel!
Chomsky once replied after 9/11 to an angry, insane author: “It may be possible to disentangle some intended line of argument, but I’m not going to make the effort, and fail to see why others should. Since 1kiki evidently does not take what she is writing seriously, there is no reason for anyone else to do so. The fair and sensible reaction is to treat all of this as some aberration, and to await the return of the author to the important work that she has often done in the past.”
www.thenation.com/article/reply-hitchens/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:13 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Why do you accuse me of lying because of your ignorance?
Because you believe in Trump? I am just throwing that hypothesis out there for lead in to this article:

Truth After Trump
from The Chronicle of Higher Education
www.chronicle.com/article/Truth-After-Trump/238174

Much of the disagreement about Donald Trump among American voters has to do with which sort of character he is: a lowly fraudster or a larger-than-life revaluer of values. It does not have to do with whether or not he is telling the truth. And so, frustratingly to many opponents, simply pointing out that he is speaking falsehoods can do nothing to set him back. In politics, the Bush administration’s manipulations are often said to have inaugurated a "post-truth" era, whose ascendancy has been confirmed by Trump’s campaign. But here we need to distinguish between truth and fact. In one view we have Trump, the bullshitter and con man, who plays fast and easy with the facts, not because he has any grand conception of the truth that he believes might justify his deceptions, but simply because he sees that he can say whatever he wants and get away with it, and this is fun for him. In another view, we have the Bush aide’s understanding of the mission of the president, which involves the realization of higher truths (democracy in the Middle East, for example) that are far more important than whatever particular facts happen to be the case.

That certain claims may be morally true while empirically false is an idea far older than George W. Bush. It is in play in the lexical distinction in Russian between two different sorts of truth — pravda, which in principle must be grounded in fact, and istina, which is somehow higher than fact. This distinction was inverted by the Bolsheviks, who with no apparent irony gave the name of Pravda to the newspaper that didn’t so much report on what was the case as describe what they would have liked to be the case.

A similar transcendence of the merely empirical helps to explain the reaction, in 16th-century Spain, to the fabrications of the Jesuit historian Jerónimo Román de la Higuera, author of the so-called Falsos cronicones, which purported to document the antiquity of the Christian faith in the Iberian peninsula. When it was discovered that he had made it all up, that there had been no martyrs or miracles in Spain in the first few centuries after Christ, Román de la Higuera was not denounced as a fraud, but instead the empirical falsity of his chronicles was taken as a sign of their power to convey a deeper truth. He had succeeded — by invention, by writing, by telling a story — in retrojecting Christianity into Spain’s distant past, which is surely a far greater accomplishment than simply relating facts.

But this, again, is not what Trump is doing. He is a mere bullshitter, and what comes out of his mouth has more to do with pathologies of personality than with any real vision of how the world, or America, ought to be brought into line with some super-empirical truth to which he alone has access.

Trump is a bullshitter, but the forces that have buoyed him go well beyond bullshit. His connection to whatever was left of the GOP has been severed, and he has drifted irretrievably into the arms of the alt-right, the gutter conspiracy-mongers who speak of a great global cabal, and the crowds that whoop and holler in agreement when this conspiracy is evoked, with barely a clue as to what is being claimed, let alone as to the standards of evidence that might be brought to bear to confirm or refute those claims. It is not that they have consented to buy into bullshit, but rather that they find themselves ensorcelled by an idea of truth independent of and superior to the facts. This is the same idea that turned the pseudohistorian Román de la Higuera into a popular hero, and that enabled Pravda to pretend to be delivering istina for the better part of a century. It is a powerful idea, and dangerous, and it speaks to something basic in the hopes and expectations of a political community.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:34 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



SO, YOU DON'T INTEND TO DISCUSS YOUR OWN ARGUMENT BECAUSE IT'S TOO COMPLICATED FOR YOU

HERE'S THE RECAP

asswipe (that's you) (posting about Trump and quoting Chomsky)
“The United States is extremely lucky that no honest, charismatic figure has arisen,” Noam Chomsky went on. ..."

me in reply
Added Sep 1st, 2015
So, not about Trump.

asswipe in reply
It turns out that Noam Chomsky was right about Trump when he foresaw in Sep 1st, 2015 that the Republicans would run a charismatic figure who is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself.

me in reply
“The United States is extremely lucky that no honest, charismatic figure has arisen,” Noam Chomsky went on. ...
Is Trump in there? In Chomsky's fears that an HONEST, CHARISMATIC FIGURE might arise?

asswipe in reply
A long story for 1kiki about the "reasons" for Peter Thiel's support of Trump


And that's a strawman, asswipe, in the pantheon of DISHONEST ARGUMENTS! Your specialty.

It's a way of misrepresenting your opponent's position.

I TOLD YOU SO will be very sweet indeed, and repeated often.

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 10:25 PM

MAL4PREZ


Wow. Kiki's really funny when she doesn't get her way. The internet equivalent to a toddler scream&stomp right there. LOL!





Wicked interesting news about Trump and his Russian internet connection. Also interesting that the FBI won't talk about it, though they're all into releasing ill-defined innuendo regarding Clinton. I wish this madness would be over in a week, but clearly it's going to go on for far longer. This stuff goes deep.

Not like 8th, 9th, 10th, fruitless investigation into Clinton's emails kind of fake-deep, but like a traitorous idiot racist sexist con-man got so damned close to the keys to power and how the hell did our system fail so bad to let this happen? The roots of this insanity run all through our government and our citizens. It won't be going away anytime soon, sadly.




*-----------------------------------------------------------------*
Battle is the Great Redeemer. It is the fiery crucible in which true heroes are forged. The one place where all men truly share the same rank, regardless of what kind of parasitic scum they were going in.
*-----------------------------------------------------------------*


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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 10:54 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Actually, it's a way to ensure that second can't pretend s/he didn't post what s/he did. I've found it to be a reliably effective way to make sure second isn't able to misrepresent either my posts, or a conversation, like in this thread; and it's a good way to make sure lies don't pass by unnoticed. see below

I TOLD YOU SO will be very sweet indeed, and repeated often.

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Tuesday, November 1, 2016 11:16 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


MEANWHILE

You posted this:
You're a whore for Russia, we get that. You are whole heartedly a nut for the Drumph. You haven't been coy about it. We've noticed your obvious spread thigh position and we are well aware of the ship you're sailing.

And I posted this:
You're a whore for Russia ... You are whole heartedly a nut for the Drumph. You haven't been coy about it.
Then you should have no problem finding ample quotes supporting your claims. Because without them, you're just another liar going blah dah blah dah blah ... endlessly.
GO GIRL! FETCH!

So, any luck finding proof of your claims? Or are you lying, again?

MEANWHILE, speaking of lies you keep repeating and just can't seem to give up -

I don't need to bother to ask *again* if you are willing to do the same. I know you aren't. I know what a coward you are. Can't stand up to your own convictions. Because you're a troll and you don't really care if you're wrong as long as you get you nickel per word for your posts. pffffft. Loser. :p

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60955&mid=1
018905#1018905
Oh btw mal, aside from you being a chronic liar - and how does that feel?, btw - I actually did respond to your challenge - twice. Once in response and once where I quoted myself to point out to you I answered it. But you must have missed it both times, or claim to have missed it both times, either because you're insane, illiterate, or a liar. I'd want to see to that if I were you. Repeatedly missing chunks of reality that you seem to be paying attention to, or claiming that you're missing them, doesn't bode well for your mental or moral health. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60745&p=1



I TOLD YOU SO will be very sweet indeed, and repeated often.

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Wednesday, November 2, 2016 1:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Wicked interesting news about Trump and his [lack of] Russian internet connection.
as written by

FBI investigations into Trump-Russia ties yield little
http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/01/politics/donald-trump-russia-fbi-investi
gations/index.html

Investigating Donald Trump, F.B.I. Sees No Clear Link to Russia
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/01/us/politics/fbi-russia-election-dona
ld-trump.html


Quote:
Also interesting that the FBI won't talk about it
Except apparently to CNN and the NYT. Alas for you and Hillary!

Quote:
though they're all into releasing ill-defined innuendo regarding Clinton. I wish this madness would be over in a week, but clearly it's going to go on for far longer. This stuff goes deep. Not like 8th, 9th, 10th, fruitless investigation into Clinton's emails kind of fake-deep, but like a traitorous idiot racist sexist con-man got so damned close to the keys to power and how the hell did our system fail so bad to let this happen? The roots of this insanity run all through our government and our citizens. It won't be going away anytime soon, sadly.


Just to clarify, what is this "this stuff" and "this insanity"? What do you think is "insane"?


Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Wednesday, November 2, 2016 2:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Why do you accuse me of lying because of your ignorance?- SIGNY

Because you believe in Trump?
Ahem!

Quote:
I am just throwing that hypothesis out there for lead in to this article
Yeah I figured you weren't serious!

Truth After Trump
from The Chronicle of Higher Education
www.chronicle.com/article/Truth-After-Trump/238174

Quote:
Much of the disagreement about Donald Trump among American voters has to do with which sort of character he is: a lowly fraudster or a larger-than-life revaluer of values. It does not have to do with whether or not he is telling the truth. And so, frustratingly to many opponents, simply pointing out that he is speaking falsehoods can do nothing to set him back. In politics, the Bush administration’s manipulations are often said to have inaugurated a "post-truth" era, whose ascendancy has been confirmed by Trump’s campaign. But here we need to distinguish between truth and fact. In one view we have Trump, the bullshitter and con man, who plays fast and easy with the facts, not because he has any grand conception of the truth that he believes might justify his deceptions, but simply because he sees that he can say whatever he wants and get away with it, and this is fun for him. In another view, we have the Bush aide’s understanding of the mission of the president, which involves the realization of higher truths (democracy in the Middle East, for example) that are far more important than whatever particular facts happen to be the case.

That certain claims may be morally true while empirically false is an idea far older than George W. Bush.
I have no idea what this means. This kind of thinking is why people can convince themselves that they're bombing people to promote peace, or some such

Quote:
And then there is the usual gratuitous anti-Russian comment that has nothing to do with the article, but seems to be required in the media today ...

Trump is a bullshitter, but the forces that have buoyed him go well beyond bullshit. His connection to whatever was left of the GOP has been severed, and he has drifted irretrievably into the arms of the alt-right, the gutter conspiracy-mongers who speak of a great global cabal, and the crowds that whoop and holler in agreement when this conspiracy is evoked, with barely a clue as to what is being claimed, let alone as to the standards of evidence that might be brought to bear to confirm or refute those claims.

Evidence: Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/artic
le/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B

Quote:
It is not that they have consented to buy into bullshit, but rather that they find themselves ensorcelled by an idea of truth independent of and superior to the facts.
No, it's just that they realize that their lives are shit and getting shittier, that DC doesn't respond to what they need or want, that we've been ensnared in one pointless war after another, and the elite just roll along sucking up more wealth and power as they go.

SECOND, it seems to me that despite having posted the same thing over and over and over, you haven't fully understood what I posted. I don't know about Trump supporters, but I know why I would vote for him, and it has nothing to do with either "believing" Trump or "believing IN Trump".

1) Hillary and Trump are MORAL EQUIVALENTS. Neither one is better or worse than the other. Hillary does not have an advantage over Trump: She lies just as much, she is just as greedy, she is just as racist, she has just as big a temper, she is just as much a misogynist ... in every regard, she is just as horrible a person.

2) HOWEVER, I give Trump the edge because he does not have a policy record advocating and promoting the bombing of brown people far away. In fact, he wants to make nice with Russia, which I personally think is a great idea.

3) In addition, he is speaking out for OUR NATIONAL BORDERS. He's not one of these open-border globalist-types who want all our decisions made in a trade tribunals or an IMF boardroom in Geneva or Singapore. He speaks out against so-called "free trade" and illegal immigration.

Trump's heart may be in the right place, but he hasn't the faintest clue how to get where he wants to go. I winced, I really did, when I heard about his first hundred days. He will probably muck things up royally for the elites, which means, of course, that we peons will suffer. But when I see who is against him ... the banksters and financiers and neocons and globalists and "value signaling" liberaloids whose values place them in strange company ... well, if you can judge a person by their enemies I guess Trump isn't so bad.



Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100

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Wednesday, November 2, 2016 9:05 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

No, it's just that they realize that their lives are shit and getting shittier, that DC doesn't respond to what they need or want, that we've been ensnared in one pointless war after another, and the elite just roll along sucking up more wealth and power as they go.

SECOND, it seems to me that despite having posted the same thing over and over and over, you haven't fully understood what I posted. I don't know about Trump supporters, but I know why I would vote for him, and it has nothing to do with either "believing" Trump or "believing IN Trump".

1) Hillary and Trump are MORAL EQUIVALENTS. Neither one is better or worse than the other. Hillary does not have an advantage over Trump: She lies just as much, she is just as greedy, she is just as racist, she has just as big a temper, she is just as much a misogynist ... in every regard, she is just as horrible a person.

2) HOWEVER, I give Trump the edge because he does not have a policy record advocating and promoting the bombing of brown people far away. In fact, he wants to make nice with Russia, which I personally think is a great idea.

3) In addition, he is speaking out for OUR NATIONAL BORDERS. He's not one of these open-border globalist-types who want all our decisions made in a trade tribunals or an IMF boardroom in Geneva or Singapore. He speaks out against so-called "free trade" and illegal immigration.

Trump's heart may be in the right place, but he hasn't the faintest clue how to get where he wants to go. I winced, I really did, when I heard about his first hundred days. He will probably muck things up royally for the elites, which means, of course, that we peons will suffer. But when I see who is against him ... the banksters and financiers and neocons and globalists and "value signaling" liberaloids whose values place them in strange company ... well, if you can judge a person by their enemies I guess Trump isn't so bad.

Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?
Excellent summary of your position, Signym. I think President Trump will kill Obamacare and President Hillary will not. It is about as certain as any promise can be in politics. Less certain is Hillary's chance of winning.

Trump’s chance of winning is at 30% and climbing fast. If the election could be delayed a month, it would be almost certain he would win.
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrp
romo#now


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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