REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What's the Point of Jobs in China?

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 5, 2016 20:24
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Thursday, May 26, 2016 5:47 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I thought it was the cheap labor, the significant savings in comparable wages to America, or other countries.

But they are making fully automated production lines - so why cannot these fully automated facilities be here?

https://daringfireball.net/2016/01/why_apple_assembles_in_china

http://www.techrepublic.com/article/chinese-factory-replaces-90-of-hum
ans-with-robots-production-soars
/

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Thursday, May 26, 2016 6:06 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
so why cannot these fully automated facilities be here?

Because the Chinese government does not feel any obligation to provide employment for the American working class? Or maybe American Business does not feel any obligation to hire the American working class?

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Thursday, May 26, 2016 6:15 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
so why cannot these fully automated facilities be here?

Because the Chinese government does not feel any obligation to provide employment for the American working class? Or maybe American Business does not feel any obligation to hire the American working class?


Or, because Obamanomics has shipped all jobs to China, Business feels no incentive to hire Americans to make Apple products.

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Thursday, May 26, 2016 6:26 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Or, because Obamanomics has shipped all jobs to China, Business feels no incentive to hire Americans to make Apple products.

Do you mean that you want Obama to create new rules for business? Are you demanding that American Business loss its basic freedom and be forced to do as Obama wants it to? You might call the new rules an incentive to hire Americans, but that doesn't sound very Republican! It sounds like Communism!

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Thursday, May 26, 2016 7:00 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Or, because Obamanomics has shipped all jobs to China, Business feels no incentive to hire Americans to make Apple products.

Do you mean that you want Obama to create new rules for business? Are you demanding that American Business loss its basic freedom and be forced to do as Obama wants it to? You might call the new rules an incentive to hire Americans, but that doesn't sound very Republican! It sounds like Communism!


Are you clueless about Business? There is no need to remove freedoms, as you Democraps and other Libtards constantly strive for. Please review the concepts of tariffs, taxes, taxation of imported goods, and the like. Appropriate tariffs and fees can help balance the incentives provided to business when they are balancing their profit sheets.

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Thursday, May 26, 2016 7:14 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Are you clueless about Business? There is no need to remove freedoms, as you Democraps and other Libtards constantly strive for. Please review the concepts of tariffs, taxes, taxation of imported goods, and the like. Appropriate tariffs and fees can help balance the incentives provided to business when they are balancing their profit sheets.

That is brilliant! A tariff! But are you clueless about tariffs, which are just a tax on either China or Apple's iPhones sold in America?

Because he is very smart, President Trump doesn’t need to force American Business to hire Americans for the assembly lines. Instead, once he is President, Trump can demand that the Chinese government raise the minimum wage in China to $15 per hour. Since Americans’ minimum wage is $7.25 per hour, that would push and shove manufacturing jobs out of China and back into America. Until China does as President Trump demands, he can tax China (what you called a tariff) to make China raise their minimum wage. It is so simple.

See how easily Trump could solve the problem of those automated Chinese factories destroying the jobs of America’s working class on assembly lines? Trump will make the Commies solve the problem and he won’t have to permanently place a heavy and unnecessary burden of new tariffs (taxes) on American Business and American consumers for those imported iPhones. Or imported flat-screen TVs. Or refrigerators. Or microwaves. Or whatever.
www.raisetheminimumwage.com/pages/minimum-wage-state

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Friday, May 27, 2016 2:39 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
so why cannot these fully automated facilities be here?

Because the Chinese government does not feel any obligation to provide employment for the American working class? Or maybe American Business does not feel any obligation to hire the American working class?


Or, because Obamanomics has shipped all jobs to China, Business feels no incentive to hire Americans to make Apple products.




God dammit, you really are one stupid fucking piece of human shit, aren't you?


Yeah, there was never a job outsourced from the U.S. to China until Obama seized power.

You fucking pathetic halfwit. Go put your gun in your mouth and pull the trigger and do the world a favor.

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Friday, May 27, 2016 2:42 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Where are Trump's line of shitty clothes made?

He hates America so much he won't even manufacture his own dogshit clothes line here. That should tell you all you need to know about The Donald and his "patriotism." He doesn't give a fuck about you, your country, or anything but his bottom line.


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Friday, May 27, 2016 9:11 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Where are Trump's line of shitty clothes made?

He hates America so much he won't even manufacture his own dogshit clothes line here. That should tell you all you need to know about The Donald and his "patriotism." He doesn't give a fuck about you, your country, or anything but his bottom line.


I should have noticed that the tariff idea was a Trump idea three months ago.

www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-trade-idUSKCN0WQ0WG
Donald Trump's threats to slap steep tariffs on Chinese and Mexican imports may have won him votes in Republican primaries but they would likely backfire, severely disrupting U.S. manufacturers that increasingly depend on global supply chains.

The Republican presidential front-runner's campaign pledges to impose 45 percent tariffs on all imports from China and 35 percent on many goods from Mexico would spark financial market turmoil and possibly even a recession, former trade negotiators, trade lawyers, economists and business executives told Reuters.

"I don't mind trade wars when we're losing $58 billion a year," Trump said in a Feb. 25 debate, referring to the 2015 U.S. goods trade deficit with Mexico. Economists dispute the idea the United States is "losing" money as the trade deficit is simply the difference between what the United States imports and what it exports to a country.

Among those hardest hit would be the U.S. auto industry, which has fully integrated Mexico into its production network. Some $118 billion worth of vehicles and parts flowed north and south across the border tariff-free last year, according to U.S. Commerce Department data.

A 35 percent tariff would raise costs for Ford Motor Co's U.S.-assembled F-series and medium-duty pickup trucks that use Mexican-made diesel engines, one of its most profitable vehicle lines.

Ford CEO Mark Fields on Wednesday defended the company's investment strategy, which includes $9 billion for U.S. plants over the next four years, saying, "We will do what makes sense for the business." Not what makes sense for Trump.

Once President Trump gets started on raising tariffs, he should not stop until the unemployment rate is ZERO for working class Americans. At the moment it is 5%. Just because prices will rise faster than a rocketship with the new Trump tariffs is no reason not to go for ZERO!
www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000

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Friday, May 27, 2016 10:57 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by G:

BTW Second. You could prove that Trump is a complete pile o' sh*t 100 more times and some of these people still won't believe you. They don't want to. It's a Personality Cult thing - they be hypno-tized. Or Soviet stooges. Their dumb sh*ttery is impenetrable. It's a force of dark nature, like something from the Marvel universe.

I don't think Trump's support by Republicans has any connection to a Trump cult.

Trump is not loved so much as Hillary is hated. Not too long ago, Jayne (Adam Baldwin) https://twitter.com/AdamBaldwin/ hated Trump and equated him with Hillary, even going so far as to post a picture of Trump morphed into Hillary. Now Trump is Jayne’s candidate. If Trump loses the general election, Jayne will pretend he never liked Trump because Trump wasn’t truly a Republican.

I’ve seen the same dynamic with my Texan neighbors. Senator Ted Cruz was their man, Trump was no Republican. He was evil, but once Trump won, all loyalties switched to Trump. There was some bitterness toward Trump and yet Hillary has to be stopped. Nixon, Bush and Bush Jr? My neighbors can’t acknowledge that those Presidents had anything to do with what a Real Republican is. The same will happen to Trump, whether he wins or loses. The average Texas Republican is treacherous, not loyal. Their party is held together by shared hatred of Hillary.



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Friday, May 27, 2016 5:28 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Apparently this thread about jobs in China for American products and the trade and tariff laws enacted by current and prior administrations has been hijacked because it is all the fault of Trump - who has never held public office.

Denial, much?
Reality impaired?

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Friday, May 27, 2016 7:59 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Apparently this thread about jobs in China for American products and the trade and tariff laws enacted by current and prior administrations has been hijacked because it is all the fault of Trump - who has never held public office.

Denial, much?
Reality impaired?

It is Trump selling tariffs as the panacea that will bring more jobs to America. I know for a fact that tariffs will raise prices in America.

For example, if Trump puts his 35% tariff on a Ford Flex made in Oakville, Ontario, Canada that is US$10,000 increase in the price. There is 20 hours of Canadian labor in that vehicle. If the Flex was made in America, there would be 20 hours of American labor. If you divide $10,000 by 20 hours of American labor the result is $500 per hour. For every hour more wages paid to an American in a Ford factory, the buyer of a Ford Flex is paying $500. Trump would be screwing every American who bought a Ford.

It was not Obama that ordered Ford to make vehicles in Mexico and Canada. It was Ford. And Trump will bring back American jobs by cheating every American purchaser of a Ford out of $10,000.

There is not enough unemployment in the USA to justify paying in tariffs the equivalent of $500 per hour per assembly line worker for increasing factory employment.
www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000


2016 Ford Flex Limited AWD SUV
Model: 2016 Ford Flex
MSRP: $39,750

How long does it actually take to make a car?
The process of making a car can be roughly divided into stamping, welding, painting, assembly and inspections, which takes about 17-18 hours in total. (It varies according to the number of cars made by a factory.)

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Saturday, May 28, 2016 11:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

It is Trump selling tariffs as the panacea that will bring more jobs to America. I know for a fact that tariffs will raise prices in America.


"That IS generally the point of tarrifs" she said dryly.

If the price of imported goods is raised, it makes internal manufacturing more competitive. That's kind of the point. The idea that we would get "cheaper goods" is what convinced Americans into a Faustian bargain with international businesses. But "who knew" that would boomerang back on US manufacturing jobs? (Who knew, indeed? I think many people did.)

Quote:

I thought it was the cheap labor, the significant savings in comparable wages to America, or other countries.
But they are making fully automated production lines - so why cannot these fully automated facilities be here?

To the original point of the thread: With the advent of widespread automation, what's the point of jobs ANYWHERE??? Its' not like automation and unemployment stop at the Chinese border.

Answer your own question. I think you'll be confounded by the result.


--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Saturday, May 28, 2016 12:40 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

It is Trump selling tariffs as the panacea that will bring more jobs to America. I know for a fact that tariffs will raise prices in America.


"That IS generally the point of tariffs" she said dryly.

If the price of imported goods is raised, it makes internal manufacturing more competitive. That's kind of the point. The idea that we would get "cheaper goods" is what convinced Americans into a Faustian bargain with international businesses. But "who knew" that would boomerang back on US manufacturing jobs? (Who knew, indeed? I think many people did.)

If the purpose was to solely raise money, you've got a point. But Trump was saying he can move jobs back to America with a 35% tariff on autos. Is it worth what it will cost Americans buying Canadian built cars? You've got to do some arithmetic, which Trump won't do even if he had an accountant to do it for him.

Trump's tariff adds $10,000 to the price of a Ford Flex immediately and the tariff only adds 20 man-hours to American factory workers. It is a very expensive way, at $500 per hour, to increase the earnings of American working class. That's not Trump's problem, because he is not buying a Flex like I did. Why should he care? Why should he ever worry about a trade war with Canada, where it's tariffs that Canada raises on USA built cars, the reverse of the Trump tariffs on Canadian built cars sold in the USA? Trump is not thinking about anything. He is just running his mouth like always, but this time on tariffs.
www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60561&mid=1011357#
1011357


Trump's next move could be to demand that Ford fire all its Canadian factory workers in Ontario and replace them with factory workers riding a bus or a train from their homes in Detroit.

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Saturday, May 28, 2016 12:46 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The USA has already imposed a 600% tariff on Chinese cold-rolled steel. So??

----

If the goal is to re-industrialize the USA, tariffs are an integral part of that effort, there's no avoiding that concept.


--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Saturday, May 28, 2016 12:59 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The USA has already imposed a 600% tariff on Chinese cold-rolled steel. So??

----

If the goal is to re-industrialize the USA, tariffs are an integral part of that effort, there's no avoiding that concept.

The duties are set at 265.79% for Chinese steelmakers. Buying cheap steel from China has a bigger effect than lost wages of American steelmakers. FAR, FAR MORE IMPORTANT IS WHEN CHINA STOPS SELLING STEEL ONCE AMERICA IS DEPENDENT ON CHINA.

Then there is the minor fact that China agreed not to dump steel. The 265.79% duties are a reminder to China that it broke its word.

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Saturday, May 28, 2016 1:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The duties are set at 265.79% for Chinese steelmakers.
U.S. hikes duties on Chinese steel to more than 500%
http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/18/news/us-steel-china-trade/

The increase in prices that you're bitching about is the cost of paying American wages. Are you saying you don't want to increase American wages?

Besides, its inevitable that you'll wind up paying more anyway. When the United States can no longer manufacture anything, your wages will fall relative to the cost of imports.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Saturday, May 28, 2016 3:36 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
It is Trump selling tariffs as the panacea that will bring more jobs to America. I know for a fact that tariffs will raise prices in America.



"That IS generally the point of tarrifs" she said dryly.

If the price of imported goods is raised, it makes internal manufacturing more competitive. That's kind of the point. The idea that we would get "cheaper goods" is what convinced Americans into a Faustian bargain with international businesses. But "who knew" that would boomerang back on US manufacturing jobs? (Who knew, indeed? I think many people did.)


Thank you for your attempts to simplify the explanation.

Quote:


Quote:

Originally posted by JewelStaiteFan:
I thought it was the cheap labor, the significant savings in comparable wages to America, or other countries.
But they are making fully automated production lines - so why cannot these fully automated facilities be here?

To the original point of the thread: With the advent of widespread automation, what's the point of jobs ANYWHERE??? Its' not like automation and unemployment stop at the Chinese border.

Answer your own question. I think you'll be confounded by the result.


The advancement of automation is largely engineered by advanced countries. The nomads and sheiks of Iran and the rice farmers of China are not designing the automation equipment. It could make sense to have these automated systems installed closer to where they are made and designed, and more easily repaired by those who are not farming rice all day.
Give a man a fish, you've fed him a meal. Teach him how to fish, you've fed him for a lifetime. Once he has learned how to fish, should he give away all his fish to people who don't want to fish? Or to the person who taught him how to fish? To the point he has no fish to feed himself or his family, and he has no ability or power to ask for some fish to eat?

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Saturday, May 28, 2016 3:38 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

The duties are set at 265.79% for Chinese steelmakers.
U.S. hikes duties on Chinese steel to more than 500%
http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/18/news/us-steel-china-trade/

The increase in prices that you're bitching about is the cost of paying American wages. Are you saying you don't want to increase American wages?

Besides, its inevitable that you'll wind up paying more anyway. When the United States can no longer manufacture anything, your wages will fall relative to the cost of imports.


What wages? You won't have a job, or wages. You will be begging the chinese owner of every company in America for some work so you can get your 2 rice balls per day.

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Saturday, May 28, 2016 4:07 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
It is Trump selling tariffs as the panacea that will bring more jobs to America. I know for a fact that tariffs will raise prices in America.



"That IS generally the point of tarrifs" she said dryly.

If the price of imported goods is raised, it makes internal manufacturing more competitive. That's kind of the point. The idea that we would get "cheaper goods" is what convinced Americans into a Faustian bargain with international businesses. But "who knew" that would boomerang back on US manufacturing jobs? (Who knew, indeed? I think many people did.)


Thank you for your attempts to simplify the explanation.

Quote:


Quote:

Originally posted by JewelStaiteFan:
I thought it was the cheap labor, the significant savings in comparable wages to America, or other countries.
But they are making fully automated production lines - so why cannot these fully automated facilities be here?

To the original point of the thread: With the advent of widespread automation, what's the point of jobs ANYWHERE??? Its' not like automation and unemployment stop at the Chinese border.

Answer your own question. I think you'll be confounded by the result.


The advancement of automation is largely engineered by advanced countries. The nomads and sheiks of Iran and the rice farmers of China are not designing the automation equipment. It could make sense to have these automated systems installed closer to where they are made and designed, and more easily repaired by those who are not farming rice all day.
Give a man a fish, you've fed him a meal. Teach him how to fish, you've fed him for a lifetime. Once he has learned how to fish, should he give away all his fish to people who don't want to fish? Or to the person who taught him how to fish? To the point he has no fish to feed himself or his family, and he has no ability or power to ask for some fish to eat?

I took a look at the Federal Reserves blog on Manufacturing: Up? Down? Posted on May 26, 2016
https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2016/05/manufacturing-up-down/

What did it say? Unemployment rate for manufacturing is lower than the rate for the general population. Production is up. Employment is down, probably because of robots, which means President Trump should’ve forbidden manufacturers from using robots on assembly lines. And while Trump is at it, excavating machinery and bulldozers should be outlawed because moving dirt with shovels will increase employment. Make America Great Again With Backbreaking Work Paying Minimum Wage.

There is nothing about tariffs creating jobs.



Is manufacturing up or down? As economists like to say, it depends. The graph above shows three indicators of U.S. manufacturing activity, and they point in different directions. Manufacturing output is definitively trending up; that is, the number of things produced in this country has increased over time and is currently increasing. This production is accomplished, however, with fewer and fewer employees. It should be no surprise that an economy becomes increasingly better (quicker, more efficient, etc.) at producing things, thanks to increasing productivity per employee through innovations, for example. Recently, though, manufacturing employment is trending up slightly, while productivity has slowed down (as it has in other sectors).

Is this good or bad? Employing people is clearly important. Yet, when an industry needs fewer people because it is better at doing something, this is viewed as a gain by economists: Workers who aren’t needed any more can move on to produce something else. Of course, there are costs in the process if displaced workers cannot find new employment right away. The U.S. has a relatively flexible labor market that has generally managed to respond well to such challenges. In the short-term, though, the gains are not shared by everyone. Manufacturing unemployment is particularly high in recessions, as is seen in the graph below. But consider yet another twist: The current unemployment rate for manufacturing is lower than the rate for the general population.


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Saturday, May 28, 2016 6:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECOND, first of all, I generally don't look at "unemployment" rates because those are subject to the "discouraged worker" phenomenon. As far as manufacturing jobs, the manufacturing sector has clearly decreased since about 2000, the Fed reading the tea leaves is irrelevant.

The real question is "What's the point of jobs ANYWHERE"? I'd rather engage JSF on this first, if possible.



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:19 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


I think it's more the latter than the former. People seem to get distracted by bright shiny objects and forget that capitalism rules the day. American Business is totally about making a buck, no matter what. Simple enough - money talks, bullshit walks.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
so why cannot these fully automated facilities be here?

Because the Chinese government does not feel any obligation to provide employment for the American working class? Or maybe American Business does not feel any obligation to hire the American working class?


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Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:25 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


I couldn't have said it better myself. Learn them, ElvisChrist, learn them.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Where are Trump's line of shitty clothes made?

He hates America so much he won't even manufacture his own dogshit clothes line here. That should tell you all you need to know about The Donald and his "patriotism." He doesn't give a fuck about you, your country, or anything but his bottom line.



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Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:30 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Say, isn't that anti-democratic, as well as, anti-capitalist? Say, that's sounds
a lot like Communism. Say, isn't that what JSF hates!

Sometimes, I'm a little slow on the uptake.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Or, because Obamanomics has shipped all jobs to China, Business feels no incentive to hire Americans to make Apple products.

Do you mean that you want Obama to create new rules for business? Are you demanding that American Business loss its basic freedom and be forced to do as Obama wants it to? You might call the new rules an incentive to hire Americans, but that doesn't sound very Republican! It sounds like Communism!


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Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:33 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"He doesn't give a fuck about you, your country, or anything but his bottom line."

And you think Hillary cares more? After all she flogged every job-destroying 'free trade' agreement that came along. She didn't just destroy US jobs in one business, she destroyed jobs in entire US industries.

But what the heck! Who cares about shit like that?




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:34 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Say, you must own a large corporation or something because you know so much about
running a business overseas. Is it true? Do you own a business here in the U.S.?
You must be filthy rich, especially if you have a business in China.

Are you the owner of Apple?


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Or, because Obamanomics has shipped all jobs to China, Business feels no incentive to hire Americans to make Apple products.

Do you mean that you want Obama to create new rules for business? Are you demanding that American Business loss its basic freedom and be forced to do as Obama wants it to? You might call the new rules an incentive to hire Americans, but that doesn't sound very Republican! It sounds like Communism!


Are you clueless about Business? There is no need to remove freedoms, as you Democraps and other Libtards constantly strive for. Please review the concepts of tariffs, taxes, taxation of imported goods, and the like. Appropriate tariffs and fees can help balance the incentives provided to business when they are balancing their profit sheets.


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Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:39 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


I get the feeling that the businesses that have Chinese connections will be against those tariffs, unless, of course, they can make a profit. Then maybe, not so much.
And since Drumpf has most of his assets here in the good ole USA (say, doesn't he have a golf course or two overseas?) Just saying!


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Where are Trump's line of shitty clothes made?

He hates America so much he won't even manufacture his own dogshit clothes line here. That should tell you all you need to know about The Donald and his "patriotism." He doesn't give a fuck about you, your country, or anything but his bottom line.


I should have noticed that the tariff idea was a Trump idea three months ago.

www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-trade-idUSKCN0WQ0WG
Donald Trump's threats to slap steep tariffs on Chinese and Mexican imports may have won him votes in Republican primaries but they would likely backfire, severely disrupting U.S. manufacturers that increasingly depend on global supply chains.

The Republican presidential front-runner's campaign pledges to impose 45 percent tariffs on all imports from China and 35 percent on many goods from Mexico would spark financial market turmoil and possibly even a recession, former trade negotiators, trade lawyers, economists and business executives told Reuters.

"I don't mind trade wars when we're losing $58 billion a year," Trump said in a Feb. 25 debate, referring to the 2015 U.S. goods trade deficit with Mexico. Economists dispute the idea the United States is "losing" money as the trade deficit is simply the difference between what the United States imports and what it exports to a country.

Among those hardest hit would be the U.S. auto industry, which has fully integrated Mexico into its production network. Some $118 billion worth of vehicles and parts flowed north and south across the border tariff-free last year, according to U.S. Commerce Department data.

A 35 percent tariff would raise costs for Ford Motor Co's U.S.-assembled F-series and medium-duty pickup trucks that use Mexican-made diesel engines, one of its most profitable vehicle lines.

Ford CEO Mark Fields on Wednesday defended the company's investment strategy, which includes $9 billion for U.S. plants over the next four years, saying, "We will do what makes sense for the business." Not what makes sense for Trump.

Once President Trump gets started on raising tariffs, he should not stop until the unemployment rate is ZERO for working class Americans. At the moment it is 5%. Just because prices will rise faster than a rocketship with the new Trump tariffs is no reason not to go for ZERO!
www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000


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Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:39 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Do you suppose you could actually address a topic - any topic at all - with facts and logic, and avoid the personal attacks, sgg?




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:42 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


When I look at this pic of Drumpf, a particular song comes to mind:

I Feel Pretty (from West Side Story)

I feel pretty, oh so pretty
I feel pretty and witty and gay
And I pity any girl who isn't me today


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by G:

BTW Second. You could prove that Trump is a complete pile o' sh*t 100 more times and some of these people still won't believe you. They don't want to. It's a Personality Cult thing - they be hypno-tized. Or Soviet stooges. Their dumb sh*ttery is impenetrable. It's a force of dark nature, like something from the Marvel universe.

I don't think Trump's support by Republicans has any connection to a Trump cult.

Trump is not loved so much as Hillary is hated. Not too long ago, Jayne (Adam Baldwin) https://twitter.com/AdamBaldwin/ hated Trump and equated him with Hillary, even going so far as to post a picture of Trump morphed into Hillary. Now Trump is Jayne’s candidate. If Trump loses the general election, Jayne will pretend he never liked Trump because Trump wasn’t truly a Republican.

I’ve seen the same dynamic with my Texan neighbors. Senator Ted Cruz was their man, Trump was no Republican. He was evil, but once Trump won, all loyalties switched to Trump. There was some bitterness toward Trump and yet Hillary has to be stopped. Nixon, Bush and Bush Jr? My neighbors can’t acknowledge that those Presidents had anything to do with what a Real Republican is. The same will happen to Trump, whether he wins or loses. The average Texas Republican is treacherous, not loyal. Their party is held together by shared hatred of Hillary.




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Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:43 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


In a word ------ NO!


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Do you suppose you could actually address a topic - any topic at all - with facts and logic, and avoid the personal attacks, sgg?




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:48 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


I saw a report, I think it was on 60 Minutes, where China bought a steel mill here in the U.S.

OMG, I actually came up with a fact! In the words of Mona Lisa Vitti, "OMG, what a fucking nightmare!"


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The USA has already imposed a 600% tariff on Chinese cold-rolled steel. So??

----

If the goal is to re-industrialize the USA, tariffs are an integral part of that effort, there's no avoiding that concept.

The duties are set at 265.79% for Chinese steelmakers. Buying cheap steel from China has a bigger effect than lost wages of American steelmakers. FAR, FAR MORE IMPORTANT IS WHEN CHINA STOPS SELLING STEEL ONCE AMERICA IS DEPENDENT ON CHINA.

Then there is the minor fact that China agreed not to dump steel. The 265.79% duties are a reminder to China that it broke its word.


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Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:53 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Really!? Bold statement. Exactly which jobs did she destroy. Facts please!


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"He doesn't give a fuck about you, your country, or anything but his bottom line."

And you think Hillary cares more? After all she flogged every job-destroying 'free trade' agreement that came along. She didn't just destroy US jobs in one business, she destroyed jobs in entire US industries.

But what the heck! Who cares about shit like that?




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:54 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Say, what about ElvisChrist? Yell, at him too. This time, I was GOOD!


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Do you suppose you could actually address a topic - any topic at all - with facts and logic, and avoid the personal attacks, sgg?




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 4:01 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lori-wallach/nafta-at-20-one-million-u_b
_4550207.html







Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 4:04 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Okay. Then explain to me.....where do tariffs come from? If they are so bad for
the American worker, whom everyone seems to care about, they why oh why are they
in place? Really, can't American workers make American products better than anyone else? Then why are American businesses fleeing the country to do their business overseas? Why aren't businesses and manufacturers rejecting the notion of taking
their companies to foreign lands?

Is the president forcing them to leave and we don't know about it. Wouldn't that
make it an impeachable offense?

Inquiring minds want to know.


SGG



Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Apparently this thread about jobs in China for American products and the trade and tariff laws enacted by current and prior administrations has been hijacked because it is all the fault of Trump - who has never held public office.

Denial, much?
Reality impaired?


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Sunday, May 29, 2016 4:19 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Oh, so this is what you mean about posting facts. Good article, yes I actually read. But let me tell you something, I do that all the time. What I don't like is being told what I can post. This is still a free country, if you don't like something I post fine. But don't tell me what to do. You don't know me and I don't know you.

I'm an individual, I think for myself. I speak my mind and try to put my point across. I am more than willing to discuss topics as intelligently as I can, if
I'm not up on a topic, I do not post a haphazard opinion. Generally, I'm a gentleman, except when I feel someone is being a dick towards me. Most times I try to have fun and still get my point across, it's obvious you don't agree. You've
made your point. And now I've made mine.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lori-wallach/nafta-at-20-one-million-u_b
_4550207.html







Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 6:06 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND, first of all, I generally don't look at "unemployment" rates because those are subject to the "discouraged worker" phenomenon. As far as manufacturing jobs, the manufacturing sector has clearly decreased since about 2000, the Fed reading the tea leaves is irrelevant.

The real question is "What's the point of jobs ANYWHERE"? I'd rather engage JSF on this first, if possible.

I saw an article called Why Has Manufacturing Employment Declined? It is from 30 years ago, back when Trump, Hillary and Obama were unimportant. It begins:
“United States manufacturing employment grew little in 1986. Currently at about 19 million workers, it is below the 21 million employed at its peak in 1979. This disappointing performance often is attributed to-” Read it to find out how the sentence ends.
https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/86/12/Manufacturin
g_Dec1986.pdf


I can show you the future story of manufacturing employment with another story that has almost reached its end: farming employment. The USA had 21 million farm workers in 1916, the very same number as 1979’s manufacturing employment. There are now only 1 million farmers and yet we are not starving.
www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor/background.aspx

Twenty million farmers have tragically lost their jobs. A way of life is gone. How will farmers support their families now that they are unemployed? President Trump says he can increase the number of hardworking farmers back to 21 million with high tariffs on imported food. But, just maybe, Trump should not.

https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/86/12/Manufacturin
g_Dec1986.pdf


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Sunday, May 29, 2016 2:54 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


second

Do you believe the data and the factors behind it from your cite are still relevant today - when manufacturing employment and output have undeniably fallen over multiple decades?

Now, I understand there are all sorts of quibbles one can make about any item or metric. Obviously the percent engaged in agriculture has gone down due to the destruction of the family farm and the rise of large-scale mechanized farming. And comparing output by using its monetary value as a metric is deeply influenced by the relative value of the currencies at any one time. And there is the rise of new industries - computing and chip manufacturing (which accounted for the bump circa 2000 which then fell to China afterwards) - and the fall of old ones.

But the fall of US manufacturing can't be explained away, no matter how many quibbles you throw at it.








Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 5:25 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
second

Do you believe the data and the factors behind it from your cite are still relevant today - when manufacturing employment and output have undeniably fallen over multiple decades?

But the fall of US manufacturing can't be explained away, no matter how many quibbles you throw at it.

You're half right. Manufacturing employment has fallen. Manufacturing output? It fell down than rose up. The loss of manufacturing jobs is an on going phenomenon associated with a long trend of technological advance. The advance is more stuff with fewer workers.

Agriculture had even more technological advance. Farmers went from 21 million in 1916 to 1 million in 2016. Dramatic unemployment for farmers and their plow horses.
http://myf.red/g/4Afq

http://myf.red/g/4AfL

Quote:

. . . manufacturing jobs as a percentage of private employment has fallen by half—from about 21 percent in 1987 to less than 11 percent today. Yet, manufacturing output as a percentage of private output has followed a steady trend of about 14 percent over the same period. Producing the same share of output with a declining share of the workforce reflects the rising productivity of employees in manufacturing firms who have become more efficient by getting better training and by working with better equipment and software.
https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/es/13/ES_20_2013-07-26.pd
f

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 6:02 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


http://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iag31-33.htm

The manufacturing sector consists of these subsectors:

Food Manufacturing: NAICS 311
Beverage and Tobacco Product Manufacturing: NAICS 312
Textile Mills: NAICS 313
Textile Product Mills: NAICS 314
Apparel Manufacturing: NAICS 315
Leather and Allied Product Manufacturing: NAICS 316
Wood Product Manufacturing: NAICS 321
Paper Manufacturing: NAICS 322
Printing and Related Support Activities: NAICS 323
Petroleum and Coal Products Manufacturing: NAICS 324
Chemical Manufacturing: NAICS 325
Plastics and Rubber Products Manufacturing: NAICS 326
Nonmetallic Mineral Product Manufacturing: NAICS 327
Primary Metal Manufacturing: NAICS 331
Fabricated Metal Product Manufacturing: NAICS 332
Machinery Manufacturing: NAICS 333
Computer and Electronic Product Manufacturing: NAICS 334
Electrical Equipment, Appliance, and Component Manufacturing: NAICS 335
Transportation Equipment Manufacturing: NAICS 336
Furniture and Related Product Manufacturing: NAICS 337
Miscellaneous Manufacturing: NAICS 339

Energy production alone (including fracking, an economically unsustainable activity) accounts for 11% of the rise from 2004 (@110) to 2014 (@127) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_States which drops the supposed rise from 2004 to 2014 (@115). Meanwhile, the population grew from 292.8 in 2004 to 318.9 million in 2014, which accounts for another 9% (and drops the supposed rise @106.)

Accounting for gas and oil production (especially the fracking bubble) and population growth, US manufacturing fell from 110 in 2004 to 106 in 2014.



And according to the BLS
There is no fixed relationship between employment change and labor productivity growth
http://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2013/productivity/






Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 7:01 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


To 1kiki:

That’s nice that your plot shows average annual % change in labor productivity was negative for oil & gas extraction, coal mining, steel products from purchased steel and cut & sew apparel manufacturing.

But most of those blue diamonds on your plot are in positive territory, not negative. You know happens when productivity is positive or increases? Employment decreases, which is what you should expect with robots working on assembly lines. That is where this all started with China firing assembly line workers because robots could do the work. Or America firing assembly line workers because robots could do the work. The result is the same: fewer assembly line workers, but more production.

I like this slide from your source because it makes clear that manufacturing productivity increased the most while hours decreased the most (except for “Information”, whatever industry that is):

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 7:25 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"But most of those blue diamonds on your plot are in positive territory, not negative."

Apparently you don't know the meaning of linear regression, which means you don't know what correlation means, graphically speaking.

When you look at ALL the data - not cherry picking the stuff that supports your ideas and leaving out the stuff that doesn't - this is how the various correlations look:



In the case of the BLS graph, the flatness of the regression line indicates lack of correlation. (The placement of the regression line shows bias, not correlation).

Also, fwiw, you completely missed the lesson of the BLS graph you 'like'. I suspect if you understood it, you wouldn't 'like' it so much. Productivity is a function of 2 (two, deux, dos) factors - output AND hours. If you're trying to make a statement about output - you need to look at - the output. Which went down for manufacturing. Which is what I said. "But the fall of US manufacturing can't be explained away, no matter how many quibbles you throw at it."




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 7:50 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

Apparently you don't know the meaning of linear regression, which means you don't know what correlation means, graphically speaking.

You claim manufacturing employment and output have undeniably fallen over multiple decades. Where did you show that manufacturing output has fallen? You are right about manufacturing employment falling, but, so what? It is doomed to fall just as agricultural employment has fallen by 20 million because of increased productivity per man hour.

Your data stops in 2010. Output has gone up since 2010. Employment has gone up only a little.
http://myf.red/g/4AfL

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 8:06 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


As I calculated above, output has gone down accounting for the fracking bubble (which is already popping) and population increase. I suggest you read my post.

Also, btw, you can't account for the lack of MANUFACTURING jobs by pointing to farming. Farming is NOT manufacturing, by definition. The lack of MANUFACTURING jobs is limited to MANUFACTURING. Funny how that works.

Food Manufacturing: NAICS 311
Beverage and Tobacco Product Manufacturing: NAICS 312
Textile Mills: NAICS 313
Textile Product Mills: NAICS 314
Apparel Manufacturing: NAICS 315
Leather and Allied Product Manufacturing: NAICS 316
Wood Product Manufacturing: NAICS 321
Paper Manufacturing: NAICS 322
Printing and Related Support Activities: NAICS 323
Petroleum and Coal Products Manufacturing: NAICS 324
Chemical Manufacturing: NAICS 325
Plastics and Rubber Products Manufacturing: NAICS 326
Nonmetallic Mineral Product Manufacturing: NAICS 327
Primary Metal Manufacturing: NAICS 331
Fabricated Metal Product Manufacturing: NAICS 332
Machinery Manufacturing: NAICS 333
Computer and Electronic Product Manufacturing: NAICS 334
Electrical Equipment, Appliance, and Component Manufacturing: NAICS 335
Transportation Equipment Manufacturing: NAICS 336
Furniture and Related Product Manufacturing: NAICS 337
Miscellaneous Manufacturing: NAICS 339


But if you're not going to bother reading my posts when I go to great lengths to bring facts to the board, then you're no better than THE THREESTOOGES.

In which case - goodbye.





Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 10:07 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

Also, btw, you can't account for the lack of MANUFACTURING jobs by pointing to farming. Farming is NOT manufacturing, by definition. The lack of MANUFACTURING jobs is limited to MANUFACTURING. Funny how that works.
. . .

Farm employment was only mentioned because farm jobs (but not food production) started being lost 100 years ago when better farm machine became available. The Fordson tractor is an example of this better machinery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordson

No matter how many millions of tons of food were imported to the USA, farmers would be losing their jobs. Farmers were angry that any food was imported and they stayed on their land until the bitter end. Some even killed themselves.

Manufacturing employment (but not manufacturing output) started to collapse 40 years ago when better machinery became available. The Honeywell TDC2000 is an example of that better machinery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_control_system#History

No matter how many millions of tons of goods were imported to the USA, manufacturing employees would be losing their jobs. They are angry that any goods are imported. Some even kill themselves because they lost their jobs.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
. . .
But if you're not going to bother reading my posts when I go to great lengths to bring facts to the board, then you're no better than THE THREESTOOGES.

In which case - goodbye.

Tomorrow I hope you have a nice Memorial Day.

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Sunday, May 29, 2016 11:47 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"No matter how many millions of tons of food were imported to the USA, farmers would be losing their jobs. ... No matter how many millions of tons of goods were imported to the USA, manufacturing employees would be losing their jobs."


Yes, that's that idée fixe of yours that the BLS disputes with a decade worth of data across ALL industries; that also doesn't take into account increased demand and new industries that provide more work opportunities; that seems resistant to the idea that when you import cars you're no longer manufacturing them in your country.

Like I said, you and facts don't seem to get along.




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Monday, May 30, 2016 12:33 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/Press-Release/MITR/2014/2014%20Man
ufacturing%20and%20International%20Trade%20Report.pdf


2014 US figures in millions of dollars

Automobiles exports/ imports
52.1/ 152.6
Light truck and utility vehicles
9.4/ 14.8
Heavy duty trucks
6.5/ 13.4

total
68.0/ 180.8
total jobs lost to imports:
266%

There were 904k auto manufacturing jobs in the US in 2015 http://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iagauto.htm#emp_national. Using that as an estimate for 2014, if the US didn't import cars or trucks, there would have been an extra 2404k auto manufacturing jobs instead, in other words, an additional 2.4 million jobs in the automotive industry alone.



Semiconductors and related devices

42.7/ 40.3
jobs lost to imports:
94%



Fiber, yarn, and thread mill products

2.1/ 0.8
jobs lost to imports:
38%



Broadwoven fabric mill products

2.1/ 3.2
jobs lost to imports:
152%




I think it's pretty clear: when goods are imported, those manufacturing jobs are lost from the importing country.




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Monday, May 30, 2016 8:28 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

. . . if the US didn't import cars or trucks, there would have been an extra 2404k auto manufacturing jobs instead, in other words, an additional 2.4 million jobs in the automotive industry alone.

I think it's pretty clear: when goods are imported, those manufacturing jobs are lost from the importing country.

Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

There is a missing vital fact. Do you have an estimate of what it will cost, hypothetically, to have all manufacturing of all cars sold in the USA done in the USA? I did one for just the Canadian built Ford Flex and it was $10,000 per Flex. Maybe President Trump's tariff will be lower than his campaign's 35%. Maybe American workers will take many more hours than Canada's 20 man-hours to build a Flex. Maybe it won't cost an extra $500 per hour of work in the USA, but it won't be free.

What will it cost to create 2,404,000 more jobs in the USA automotive industry?

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Monday, May 30, 2016 10:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, I'm glad to see that KIKI disabused you of your argument that automation is the main reason for lost jobs in the USA.

And now you're wondering about the cost of bringing those jobs back to the USA. So, tell me, SECOND, what is the cost of NOT having those jobs?

Welfare, food stamps, broke pension programs (including Social Security), depression, substance abuse, poor health outcomes, suicide? Oversized debt burden at all levels (both public and private) and potential financial collapse? Political instability? The inability of the USA to chart a course independent of banks? Eventually, a worth-less currency and an increase in import costs?

Which brings me back to my question: What's the point of jobs ANYWHERE?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, May 30, 2016 2:57 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I just wanted to get back to the topic of automation: the reason why SOME automation happens is specifically to reduce labor costs in order to get a higher profit. It's the same reason why one would 'offshore' jobs to where labor is cheaper. But while reducing labor through automation, and therefore labor costs, is a short-term profit-boosting move for any PARTICULAR business, it's an overall economy- and society-busting paradigm. Because a population that makes less money is ultimately unable to purchase those goods. It's the basic self-destructive internal contradiction of capitalism.

But it's not the only reason to automate. Most, if not all, of our highest-technology goods are impossible to make without automation. Chip manufacturing is an example. So are self-assembled complex chemicals and nano-technology products. Nuclear power is automated. Also, deep mining and large-scale construction have to be done with the aid of machines rather than lots and lots of human labor. And so on. Where environments are too harsh, dimensions too small, precision too exacting, timescales too small - or large, power and force requirements too large; in short, when human labor is incapable, we need our technology, including automation, to accomplish our tasks. It allows us to move beyond human capability to do tasks and make things that would otherwise not be possible.




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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