Trump Challenges the 14th Amendment by SHINYGOODGUY

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

The Citizenship Clause represented Congress's reversal of a portion of the Dred Scott v. Sandford decision which had declared that African Americans were not and could not become citizens of the United States or enjoy any of the privileges and immunities of citizenship.

The Civil Rights Act of 1866 had already granted U.S. citizenship to all persons born in the United States "not subject to any foreign power". The 39th Congress proposed the principle underlying the Citizenship Clause due to concerns expressed about the constitutionality of the Civil Rights Act during floor debates in Congress. The framers of the Fourteenth Amendment sought to entrench the principle in the Constitution in order to prevent the Civil Rights Act being struck down by the Supreme Court or repealed by a future Congress.

The Citizenship Clause's author, Senator Jacob M. Howard of Michigan, phrased it a little differently. In particular, the two exceptions to citizenship by birth for everyone born in the United States mentioned in the Civil Rights Act, namely, that they had to be "not subject to any foreign power" and not "Indians not taxed", were combined into a single qualification, that they be "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States, and while Howard and others, such as Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Lyman Trumbull of Illinois, the author of the Civil Rights Act, believed that the formulations were equivalent, others, such as Senator James R. Doolittle from Wisconsin, disagreed, and pushed for an alternative wording.

If only Trump had been there, the wording would have been corrected, but he is 149 years late.

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Friday, August 21, 2015 11:55 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

My reaction is: FINALLY!

This is something my liberal friends and I have disagreed abut for many years.

Hubby and I have looked to emigrate to someplace that is kinder to disabled adults than the USA, which is a dogpit. Having seriously looked at the immigration and citizenship requirements of many nations I can tell you that without question ...

The 14th Amendment is an international aberration.

There is NO OTHER nation that I've run across that has anything remotely like it in its legal structure. And to hear Mexico whine about the USA's possible rejection of "birthright" citizenship is just maddening, because

1) They have nothing at all like in their own legal code.
2) In fact, they have pretty stringent requirements for citizenship, and fairly large restrictions on non-citizens. Unlike the USA, Mexico doesn't allow foreigners to buy land.
3) They, in fact, have harsh policy and even worse treatment of illegal immigrants than we do, and...
4) Obviously, they're only trying to protect their OWN economic/political "safety valve", on the back of the USA economy.
5) The only entities which truly benefit from illegal immigration are corporations.

But, unlike Trump, I'd make this part of a larger policy change, not just on immigration but also to correct our policies which created this immigration problem to being with. I started out by asking ...

WHY is there so much immigration into the USA?
Well, it's because of poor economic and social conditions in Central and South America.

So, WHY are economic and social conditions so poor?
Well, among other things, it is probably because of relentless interference of the USA in its "southern neighbors'" political and economic affairs for- literally- over 100 years. There is not a single nation south of the USA (with the exception of Costa Rica) which has not been directly invaded by the US Marines (or other armed forces) (sometimes more than once) or destabilized with covert funding, arming, and training by USA (sometimes more than once). There is not a single nation which has not seen its social justice, democracy, land reform, education, dignity, or nationalization movements brutally quashed by US troops or paid armed forces in favor of plantations/ rancheros. international corporations, or banks ... starting with the "banana wars" beginning in 1898 ...

Quote:
These military interventions were most often carried out by the United States Marine Corps. The Marines were involved so often that they developed a manual, The Strategy and Tactics of Small Wars, in 1921. On occasion, the Navy provided gunfire support and Army troops were also used.
With the Treaty of Paris, Spain ceded control of Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines to the United States. Thereafter, the United States conducted military interventions in Panama, Honduras, Nicaragua, Mexico, Haiti, and the Dominican Republic. The series of conflicts only ended with the withdrawal of troops from Haiti in 1934 under President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars

and as late as 2009, when Zelaya was militarily removed from office by US-friendly troops.

Needless to say, this interference prevented land and wealth redistribution, better education, democratic change, economic development, the meeting of people's natural aspirations for control over their future and well-being, and lawful governance; and promoted policies of gross inequality and the violent suppression necessary to maintain it. There was a joke going around in my young adult years about the number of revolutions south of the border, which went something like " Did you know that bullfighting is the most popular national sport in south America?" "Isn't that revolting?" "No, that's the second-most popular sport"

Then, from our imperial height, the USA twisted arms to get NAFTA and CAFTA signed, which had negative effects on BOTH the Anglo and Hispanic worlds. "Free trade" pushed American (subsidized) agricultural crops onto our "partners", which pushed many small farmers off the land (which BTW make up a large part of our illegal immigrant problem), led to national food insecurity, and relegated many people to low-wage manufacturing jobs dependent on exports to the USA.

Clearly, one of the first things we need to do is STOP INTERFERING in politics that are NOT OURS.

Second, we should break NAFTA and CAFTA (Instead, Obama is trying to get MORE "free trade" agreements signed, which will reduce internal self-governance even more).

Many of my liberal friends sympathize with the illegal immigrants out of a sense of liberal guilt for past sins. But unlike them (and as my over-the-text line says) I don't believe in sharing problems, and I don't believe in treating people like pigeons: Allowing people to roost wherever they can find an unused spot and throwing them crumbs once in a while. Seriously, that's what liberal guilt results in. We should fix the source of the problem.

Another point is that it does no nation [OURS] any good to have a significant minority which neither speaks the language nor is committed its place of residence.

So, in addition to

1) Eliminating the birthright citizenship, I would

2) Make English the official language. Everyone in the USA on anything other than a (very) temporary visa must learn to speak English. (Perhaps that's why I'm supportive of phonetic English)

3) Make citizenship not only optional, but mandatory. No 30-year residency with one foot half-in. You either become a citizen in 15 years, or you go back to the land of your (or your parents') birth. And that includes learning English.

4) Break NAFTA, CAFTA, and the other "free trade" which bind our trade to their, and put tariffs in place which promote re-industrialization of the USA.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, August 21, 2015 9:25 PM

You can, of course, eliminate birthright citizenship.

The only thing it takes is a constitutional amendment.

Think about it. We couldn't pass one for women's equality, but I'm sure more people hate immigrants than hate women (although a substantial portion - a majority, really - of conservatives hate both with a passion).

Trump is a dolt. He wouldn't know how to poor piss out of a boot if the directions were on the heel.

Saying something in the Constitution is unconstitutional is just one of the dumbest fucking things anyone has ever said, and it should immediately disqualify him for office anywhere.

By the way, it's ironic that so many conservatives oppose birthright citizenship.

Marco Rubio wouldn't be a citizen if it weren't for birthright citiezenship.

Neither would Ted Cruz.

Nor Jeb Bush's kids (his wife wasn't a citizen when she had her first two kids).

Nor 4 out of 5 of Trump's kids (born to non-citizen immigrants).

Maybe it's telling us something about these people and their family values - they don't want their kids and families to live here with them?

Birthright citizenship is legal because it's in our Constitution. Kind of like guns and all your stupid religions.

Don't like it? Change the Constitution. But stop bitching about how Obama won't uphold the Constitution if you're not willing to.

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Saturday, August 22, 2015 4:20 AM

Okay, let's say that is a reality, and Congress has the balls to amend the Amendment. Where do we begin? 5, 10, 20 years ago. How about 50 years ago or when the Amendment was ratified!?

Then, as you say, Trump and others, would 'catch up.'
Everyone having had children after that point would be deported, along with their carpetbagger parents because then all would be considered "anchor" babies. Can anyone say that they are really "natives" of this land. Do we go back to the landing on Plymouth Rock? Who can say that they were right here when all those foreigners showed up?

Well, let's not get carried away. Let's start right after independence was declared, you know we had taken the land from the 'natives' who were here long ago and imposed "our" language upon them. Might makes right you know. Too far back!?

Alright.....let's try this: In recent times, let's say 2000 until the present, how many are here illegally?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/24/5-facts-about-illegal-
immigration-in-the-u-s/

According to this article, about half of the illegal workers (52%) are Mexicans. We get rid of them and build the Trump Wall using skilled American laborers (good luck with that, especially with Trump in charge). Then what about the 48% that are not Mexican? How do we keep them out? Quite the conundrum!

But I like your idea about having these illegals learn English. Well, one good thing comes out of this, we have to hire more teachers to teach English. That'll work, except in Jersey, Christie hates teachers. BTW New Jersey is one of those states who's numbers are up regarding illegals. The cleaning lady in the office where I work is from Croatia and has been here 14 years, she speaks broken English, owns a home (NJ) and has 2 daughters born and raised here in the U.S. Actually almost all the cleaning staff are foreign-born workers, even their supervisor. What a country! About half the staff are European and Asian. Each and every one terrified to lose their jobs, because they know they'll be replaced "toot suite". Slavery!, who said that, not in this country.

Deport them, I say, and give those jobs to Americans. Deport them and their children, send them back and rebuild America where our children could look forward to minimum wage and cleaning toilets for a living. Wait, isn't Bobby Jindal an anchor baby. And what about Ted Cruz, isn't he Canadian? Fuck it, get rid of them too. Good fucking riddance.

Citizenship: If anyone is here beyond 90 days, they register to get a provisional visa that'll start them on their way to becoming a citizen. Meanwhile, if they work they pay taxes like anyone else. Every year they must go to English class, that goes for all immigrants European and otherwise, not just Mexicans. They must progress in the language and after 10 years, apply to become a citizen. If they circumvent this path and leave the country, the clock starts over again. If they sneak back in illegally, the clock starts again and add 5 years. Third time's a charm, you get caught being here illegally you go under "house arrest" and wear an ankle bracelet for 20 years and no citizenship for you. How's that for democracy?

Jobs: NAFTA, PAFTA, CRAFTA, SHASTA whatever the fuck........abolish it. All it is is cheap labor for the Multinational Corporations. It destabilizes countries and soon their citizens are on their way here. The companies hire them, illegally, and bye-bye American worker. It's a form of Union Busting. The company heads then pay for advertising placing the blame on the immigrants looking to feed their families and provide a roof over their heads. It's not liberal bias or guilt when it's the truth. Why do you think they come flocking to us? They go where the jobs are, and the Corporations know because they planned it carefully. In this country money talks and bullshit walks. Just ask the Koch brothers.

But I say the children should not suffer because the parents were forced to come here for work. Think about it, would you want to leave the USA to go elsewhere to feed your family? You're a doctor, but Russia buys out all the hospitals and places their citizens in those hospitals.......squeezing you out. You here that in Canada
they're hiring, but they say you have to accept 30% less because you are not a Canadian citizen. You need to get a Canadian degree. 5 years and $100,000 later you make it, but now you're too old. Tough shit, they've got ya by the balls!

Ah Politics!

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
My reaction is: FINALLY!

This is something my liberal friends and I have disagreed abut for many years.

Hubby and I have looked to emigrate to someplace that is kinder to disabled adults than the USA, which is a dogpit. Having seriously looked at the immigration and citizenship requirements of many nations I can tell you that without question ...

The 14th Amendment is an international aberration.

There is NO OTHER nation that I've run across that has anything remotely like it in its legal structure. And to hear Mexico whine about the USA's possible rejection of "birthright" citizenship is just maddening, because

1) They have nothing at all like in their own legal code.
2) In fact, they have pretty stringent requirements for citizenship, and fairly large restrictions on non-citizens. Unlike the USA, Mexico doesn't allow foreigners to buy land.
3) They, in fact, have harsh policy and even worse treatment of illegal immigrants than we do, and...
4) Obviously, they're only trying to protect their OWN economic/political "safety valve", on the back of the USA economy.
5) The only entities which truly benefit from illegal immigration are corporations.

But, unlike Trump, I'd make this part of a larger policy change, not just on immigration but also to correct our policies which created this immigration problem to being with. I started out by asking ...

WHY is there so much immigration into the USA?
Well, it's because of poor economic and social conditions in Central and South America.

So, WHY are economic and social conditions so poor?
Well, among other things, it is probably because of relentless interference of the USA in its "southern neighbors'" political and economic affairs for- literally- over 100 years. There is not a single nation south of the USA (with the exception of Costa Rica) which has not been directly invaded by the US Marines (or other armed forces) (sometimes more than once) or destabilized with covert funding, arming, and training by USA (sometimes more than once). There is not a single nation which has not seen its social justice, democracy, land reform, education, dignity, or nationalization movements brutally quashed by US troops or paid armed forces in favor of plantations/ rancheros. international corporations, or banks ... starting with the "banana wars" beginning in 1898 ...

Quote:
These military interventions were most often carried out by the United States Marine Corps. The Marines were involved so often that they developed a manual, The Strategy and Tactics of Small Wars, in 1921. On occasion, the Navy provided gunfire support and Army troops were also used.
With the Treaty of Paris, Spain ceded control of Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines to the United States. Thereafter, the United States conducted military interventions in Panama, Honduras, Nicaragua, Mexico, Haiti, and the Dominican Republic. The series of conflicts only ended with the withdrawal of troops from Haiti in 1934 under President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars

and as late as 2009, when Zelaya was militarily removed from office by US-friendly troops.

Needless to say, this interference prevented land and wealth redistribution, better education, democratic change, economic development, the meeting of people's natural aspirations for control over their future and well-being, and lawful governance; and promoted policies of gross inequality and the violent suppression necessary to maintain it. There was a joke going around in my young adult years about the number of revolutions south of the border, which went something like " Did you know that bullfighting is the most popular national sport in south America?" "Isn't that revolting?" "No, that's the second-most popular sport"

Then, from our imperial height, the USA twisted arms to get NAFTA and CAFTA signed, which had negative effects on BOTH the Anglo and Hispanic worlds. "Free trade" pushed American (subsidized) agricultural crops onto our "partners", which pushed many small farmers off the land (which BTW make up a large part of our illegal immigrant problem), led to national food insecurity, and relegated many people to low-wage manufacturing jobs dependent on exports to the USA.

Clearly, one of the first things we need to do is STOP INTERFERING in politics that are NOT OURS.

Second, we should break NAFTA and CAFTA (Instead, Obama is trying to get MORE "free trade" agreements signed, which will reduce internal self-governance even more).

Many of my liberal friends sympathize with the illegal immigrants out of a sense of liberal guilt for past sins. But unlike them (and as my over-the-text line says) I don't believe in sharing problems, and I don't believe in treating people like pigeons: Allowing people to roost wherever they can find an unused spot and throwing them crumbs once in a while. Seriously, that's what liberal guilt results in. We should fix the source of the problem.

Another point is that it does no nation [OURS] any good to have a significant minority which neither speaks the language nor is committed its place of residence.

So, in addition to

1) Eliminating the birthright citizenship, I would

2) Make English the official language. Everyone in the USA on anything other than a (very) temporary visa must learn to speak English. (Perhaps that's why I'm supportive of phonetic English)

3) Make citizenship not only optional, but mandatory. No 30-year residency with one foot half-in. You either become a citizen in 15 years, or you go back to the land of your (or your parents') birth. And that includes learning English.

4) Break NAFTA, CAFTA, and the other "free trade" which bind our trade to their, and put tariffs in place which promote re-industrialization of the USA.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Saturday, August 22, 2015 4:44 AM

Good points all, but let me fantasize for a moment:

I sometimes think that Trump is a Democratic plant. Why? because he's brought up what the Republicans have been avoiding since, well, the Reagan years, Immigration Reform. It's all economics. Cheap labor, more money for the Corporations. Want proof? Stagnant salaries and influx of illegal workers (although recent numbers show a slowdown), plus record profits. Hmmmmm, if it quacks like a duck.....!

But here's the Trumpster forcing the issue, leading in the polls and, with the average American fed up with the do-nothing Congress, well do the math. Were it not for him the rather large field of status quo politicians would be flapping their gums, but nobody home. Empty promises, as per usual. And the women, fuggitaboutit!

On second thought...................naaaaaaahhhhhhh!

Repeal of Birthright Citizenship would open up a can of worms that Pandora would be proud of.

Trump needs to be a vowel. I say repeal of the 14th Amendment, opens up the field for other possibilities. Like you have correctly stated, guns, religion etc. It's in the Constitution for a reason, fuck with it and this country will fall to fascism so fast................

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
You can, of course, eliminate birthright citizenship.

The only thing it takes is a constitutional amendment.

Think about it. We couldn't pass one for women's equality, but I'm sure more people hate immigrants than hate women (although a substantial portion - a majority, really - of conservatives hate both with a passion).

Trump is a dolt. He wouldn't know how to poor piss out of a boot if the directions were on the heel.

Saying something in the Constitution is unconstitutional is just one of the dumbest fucking things anyone has ever said, and it should immediately disqualify him for office anywhere.

By the way, it's ironic that so many conservatives oppose birthright citizenship.

Marco Rubio wouldn't be a citizen if it weren't for birthright citiezenship.

Neither would Ted Cruz.

Nor Jeb Bush's kids (his wife wasn't a citizen when she had her first two kids).

Nor 4 out of 5 of Trump's kids (born to non-citizen immigrants).

Maybe it's telling us something about these people and their family values - they don't want their kids and families to live here with them?

Birthright citizenship is legal because it's in our Constitution. Kind of like guns and all your stupid religions.

Don't like it? Change the Constitution. But stop bitching about how Obama won't uphold the Constitution if you're not willing to.

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Saturday, August 22, 2015 9:02 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Okay, let's say that is a reality, and Congress has the balls to amend the Amendment. Where do we begin? 5, 10, 20 years ago. How about 50 years ago or when the Amendment was ratified!?

Did you know Trump can have what he wants without amending the Constitution? To know that you got to read the footnotes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark#cite_ref-O
forji_167-1
The Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals criticized the granting of citizenship to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants, suggesting that Congress can and should act to change this policy.

Oforji v. Ashcroft, 354 F.3d 609 (7th Cir. 2003). "[O]ne rule that Congress should rethink ... is awarding citizenship to everyone born in the United States (... United States v. Wong Kim Ark ...), including the children of illegal immigrants whose sole motive in immigrating was to confer U.S. citizenship on their as yet unborn children.... We should not be encouraging foreigners to come to the United States solely to enable them to confer U.S. citizenship on their future children.... A constitutional amendment may be required to change the rule ... but I doubt it.... Congress would not be flouting the Constitution if it amended the Immigration and Nationality Act to put an end to the nonsense.... Our [judges'] hands, however, are tied. We cannot amend the statutory provisions on citizenship and asylum."
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1423087.html

President Trump can do it without breaking the Constitution.

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Saturday, August 22, 2015 10:22 AM

WHOZIT

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Talk about the blind leading the blind. Here we have the super-candidate, Trump, questioning the validity of the 14th Amendment saying it's un-Constitutional.

This is a real estate mogul using his superior intellect to comment on the Constitutionality of an amendment that has existed since before the Constitution was written. Plus the birthright issue has been tested in the courts and has, obviously, prevailed.

Tried, tested, game, set, match!

Commence au festival!

SGG

But YOU and a bunch of lib whores in the media are experts on the 14th amendment? Democrats want illegals here to cut their grass and clean their bathrooms. Republicans want them here for cheap labor in factory's and crush the unions The fact is the far left and right want to use these people, not help them. The Hollywood left wants them here to clean their homes, they have no chance to get jobs at film and TV studios filled with union crews. Do ya think some film producer will stop at a Home Depot parking lot at yell, I need 12 people to work on a film set! Ya think the unions would be OK with that? CEO's want these people to work in factory's and pay them as little as they can get away with. If we send these people home wages will go up because of the demand for workers. I know this because the trucking industry is short drivers and will pay drivers over $20 an hour to start. Meanwhile fast food workers make minimum wage because it's easy to find people to work there and they don't need any experience.

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Saturday, August 22, 2015 12:03 PM

Yes, there should definitely be a requirement in all countries that nobody can go there to work or live who doesn't speak the prevailing language(s) fluently. A written and oral test should be administered on the tarmac at the airport and at every entry point into every country, as well.

If there's one thing that's proven to be bad for every person and every nation, it's exposure to other cultures!

Fuckin' idiots.

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Saturday, August 22, 2015 12:54 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisChrist:

idiots.

Yesterday Donald J. Trump was in Mobile, Ala. at a campaign rally that he compared to a Billy Graham crusade.

One of the audience said to NYTimes: “Hopefully, he’s going to sit there and say, ‘When I become elected president, what we’re going to do is we’re going to make the border a vacation spot, it’s going to cost you $25 for a permit, and then you get $50 for every confirmed kill,’ ” said Jim Sherota, 53, who works for a landscaping company. “That’d be one nice thing.” -
www.nytimes.com/2015/08/22/us/donald-trump-fails-to-fill-alabama-stadi
um-but-fans-zeal-is-undiminished.html

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Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:51 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

First, let me start out by saying that I don't intend to vote for Trump.

I don't want Trump and his candidacy and his followers (who represent an kind of idiocracy) to turn into a surrogate discussion about MY issues with the 14th amendment.

Yes, changing the 14th Amendment would require an amendment process.

But, while it was inaccurate for Trump to say that the 14th Amendment is "unconstitutional" (it's clearly in the Constitution), it wasn't stupid of him to say that. He's playing to his reality-TV-show-watching base, and it's getting him lot and lots and lots and LOTS of free publicity. Heck, there's a whole thread here just for the purpose of discussing what Trump said. The guy sure knows how to drum it up!

All that being said, while the 14th Amendment was a good idea at the time (it was written to make citizens of former slaves, in order to correct a defect in the original framework which didn't recognize slaves as citizens) it is no longer a useful idea. In the realm of international law, it's an aberration; it sticks out like a sore thumb. Even some Chinese and Mexicans think we're really stupid to allow it; I know because they told me so.

As far as implementing the repeal (or modification) of the 14th Amendment, you can't apply new laws retroactively. It would have to be from the date of ratification. So all of those thoughts about going back to the days of the Declaration of Independence ... phhhffffttt! That's what those thoughts are worth.

As far as people having to learn English on the tarmac ... clearly, you don't know how a visa system works. One gets permission to be in the USA through a visa, and there are many kinds including tourist visas and student visas. For those kinds of visa classifications, you shouldn't have to know English. However, it you want to gain CITIZENSHIP, clearly, you SHOULD know the language! There should be absolutely no reason whatsoever to have to print election material in 17 different languages, as we do here in southern CA.

The value of amending the 14th amendment - in addition to its value to ending birthright citizenship, birth tourism (yes it really happens, mostly with Asians) and "if I have one kid in the USA he or she will be my anchor baby" - would be political: we could trade it for a mandatory citizenship pathway for long-term residents. Everyone would be happy: the right wing would be happy, and the illegal immigrants would have a pathway to citizenship.

Most of your responses are pretty off-target, I have to say.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Saturday, August 22, 2015 9:19 PM

By the way, the claim that birthright citizenship is an American aberration is also quite off the mark.

33 countries do it. We're one of them.

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Saturday, August 22, 2015 9:21 PM

Did you hear the people at the Trump/KKK rally shouting "WHITE POWER!" during his speech?

That's the Republican base. That's EXACTLY who they are and why they support Trump.

And Sig, next time you want to blather on about people needing to speak the language, how's about you do it in fucking Navajo, you asshole.

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Sunday, August 23, 2015 1:39 AM

Look everybody! Whozit promoted me, I'm now an EXPERT. Yippee Ka Yay!

Truck Drivers: I know of one man who came here 20 years ago and drives a truck for a living.

I saw a video report of an illegal Mexican worker that works in New York at the Trump Soho Hotel. He said he's neither a rapist or drug dealer. He works for Trump.
He hired an illegal worker, who probably gets half of what an American would get in salary.

Yes, Trump for president!

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Talk about the blind leading the blind. Here we have the super-candidate, Trump, questioning the validity of the 14th Amendment saying it's un-Constitutional.

This is a real estate mogul using his superior intellect to comment on the Constitutionality of an amendment that has existed since before the Constitution was written. Plus the birthright issue has been tested in the courts and has, obviously, prevailed.

Tried, tested, game, set, match!

Commence au festival!

SGG

But YOU and a bunch of lib whores in the media are experts on the 14th amendment? Democrats want illegals here to cut their grass and clean their bathrooms. Republicans want them here for cheap labor in factory's and crush the unions The fact is the far left and right want to use these people, not help them. The Hollywood left wants them here to clean their homes, they have no chance to get jobs at film and TV studios filled with union crews. Do ya think some film producer will stop at a Home Depot parking lot at yell, I need 12 people to work on a film set! Ya think the unions would be OK with that? CEO's want these people to work in factory's and pay them as little as they can get away with. If we send these people home wages will go up because of the demand for workers. I know this because the trucking industry is short drivers and will pay drivers over $20 an hour to start. Meanwhile fast food workers make minimum wage because it's easy to find people to work there and they don't need any experience.

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Sunday, August 23, 2015 2:03 AM

Like those 2 idiots that beat up a homeless man.........a homeless man!!!

From what I understand, Trump supporters make up approximately 25% of the conservative republican base. His hate speech, which is what it amounts to, will NOT fly across the majority of this country, no matter how frustrated people are.
There's no room in this country for fascism.

A whole war was fought to rid the world of such despicable behavior. That's the America I know and love.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
Did you hear the people at the Trump/KKK rally shouting "WHITE POWER!" during his speech?

That's the Republican base. That's EXACTLY who they are and why they support Trump.

And Sig, next time you want to blather on about people needing to speak the language, how's about you do it in fucking Navajo, you asshole.

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Sunday, August 23, 2015 2:07 AM

The Amendment was born out of an English law that existed well before the Constitution was ever writ. So it is not purely American.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
By the way, the claim that birthright citizenship is an American aberration is also quite off the mark.

33 countries do it. We're one of them.

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Sunday, August 23, 2015 2:18 AM

Elvischrist did his homework...........................

Here's a list:

http://www.multiplecitizenship.com/worldsummary.html

Next!

SGG

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Sunday, August 23, 2015 2:29 AM

The 14th Amendment, it is the law of the land, Trump, if he becomes president, can issue an Executive Order (it's okay, he's white, so Congress won't obstruct), but it will still be Un-Constitutional.

It would take an act of Congress to change the law.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Okay, let's say that is a reality, and Congress has the balls to amend the Amendment. Where do we begin? 5, 10, 20 years ago. How about 50 years ago or when the Amendment was ratified!?
Did you know Trump can have what he wants without amending the Constitution? To know that you got to read the footnotes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark#cite_ref-O
forji_167-1
The Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals criticized the granting of citizenship to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants, suggesting that Congress can and should act to change this policy.

Oforji v. Ashcroft, 354 F.3d 609 (7th Cir. 2003). "[O]ne rule that Congress should rethink ... is awarding citizenship to everyone born in the United States (... United States v. Wong Kim Ark ...), including the children of illegal immigrants whose sole motive in immigrating was to confer U.S. citizenship on their as yet unborn children.... We should not be encouraging foreigners to come to the United States solely to enable them to confer U.S. citizenship on their future children.... A constitutional amendment may be required to change the rule ... but I doubt it.... Congress would not be flouting the Constitution if it amended the Immigration and Nationality Act to put an end to the nonsense.... Our [judges'] hands, however, are tied. We cannot amend the statutory provisions on citizenship and asylum."
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1423087.html

President Trump can do it without breaking the Constitution.

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Sunday, August 23, 2015 7:37 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
The 14th Amendment, it is the law of the land, Trump, if he becomes president, can issue an Executive Order (it's okay, he's white, so Congress won't obstruct), but it will still be Un-Constitutional.

It would take an act of Congress to change the law.

In the unlikely event that Trump is President, he'd likely have a Republican Senate and House. He would get his amended Immigration and Nationality Act. Years and years later the Supreme Court would eventually rule about that law's constitutionality. If the Court decides based on original intent of the writers of the 14th Amendment toward only ex-slaves and native tribes, Trump will have his way. If the Court decides based on English Common Law, Trump will lose his way.

In other news: Republicans were shocked — shocked! — to learn that Trump is not a team player. Where had they been? You would have thought, given that Trump assailed Marco Rubio and Jeb Bush by name right out of the gate when he first announced he was running for president, the Republican National Committee would have already figured out that Trump is only loyal to Trump.

Now there is a new movement afoot to get tough and bar from the next debate — which is scheduled to be televised on CNN on Sept. 16 — anyone who refuses to pledge support for the party’s eventual nominee. (Read: Donald Trump.)

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Sunday, August 23, 2015 10:44 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The Amendment was born out of an English law that existed well before the Constitution was ever writ. So it is not purely American.

But curiously not implemented in modern England, nor in New Zealand, Australia, Wales, Scotland, or Ireland. Having looked this up, I find it IS purely "American", in the sense that it is only law in the Americas (north, central, and south ... and BTW you reveal your bias by referring to the USA as "America" when in fact there are many nations that are "American". That's why I refer to the USA as the USA.) and not in all "American" nations at that.

Quote:
By the way, the claim that birthright citizenship is an American aberration is also quite off the mark.

33 countries do it. We're one of them. 33 countries out of 194 have birthright citizenship, and they're in the Americas. So I guess in that sense (altho not the sense that was intended) it IS an "American" aberration. Worldwide, it's 15%. The USA is not unique, OTOH, it's not common either.

Quote:
And Sig, next time you want to blather on about people needing to speak the language, how's about you do it in fucking Navajo, you asshole.

Whatever. I've written more than once about the fact that America was born by mass genocide. Are you willing to leave the USA for the land of your parents' (or grandparents' or further back) birth? That's why I propose from time of adoption forward, not retroactive (which BTW is legally impossible).

Having to publish election material ... not restaurant menus, not business signs, but BALLOTS ... in 17 languages is ludicrous.

BTW- In order to be President of Navajo Nation (yes, it is a nation) you need to speak Navajo.

Yah-ta-hey!

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns. gallery.

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Sunday, August 23, 2015 12:58 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I didn't vote for US policy on native Americans. I'm totally alienated from this government ... a point that I keep getting criticized for.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Sunday, August 23, 2015 7:14 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Maybe a restart on the conversation would be helpful.

Setting aside USA policy on illegal Hispanic immigrants, which brings up a host of other issues, if you were able to set immigration policy for some other random nation ... say, New Zealand .... what would your policy be? How would you balance the desire to extend a hand to others who might be less fortunate and treat immigrants in a humane fashion, against the need to be able to provide jobs and have a successful economy and integrated society?

So, which one of you brave souls will tackle the subject of fair immigration policies?

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Sunday, August 23, 2015 9:19 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I think all countries should participate in "shelter in place" programs, based on their GDP, for victims of global warming, drought, earthquake, epidemics etc - natural disasters that may make life untenable under those conditions. For those people who must flee - for example, people whose islands are disappearing under the ocean - the fund pays for their resettlement and provision in the country of their choice. But of course many people displace themselves due to economics. In that case the country from which people are fleeing must pay 50% of the cost of supporting the emigrants in their new country, while the global fund pays the rest. And then of course there are millions on millions of people who are fleeing war. In that case the cost of providing for those people must be divided equally between all participants who are involved in ANY way besides simple humanitarianism.

Once the question of cost is settled, I don't think too many people will complain about immigration.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, August 24, 2015 1:46 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

No other takers? Nobody wants to spend some quality-time thinking about how to solve the problem of immigration, and what mass movements of people mean in a world where there is no "free" land and every place is already occupied by a different group of people who may have their own ideas how to run a society and an economy?

------------

I think those are good ideas, but there has to be a geopolitical component to immigration. A lot of immigration is caused by man-made disasters ... war, primarily.

For example, on the reasons why Europe is the destination for a wave of immigrants is because the EU ... and France in particular... helped destroy Libya. And then the arms and jihadists were transported northeastward towards Syria (Thank you, Saudi Arabia and Qatar!) and also dispersed south and west, into Mali. So in a sense, the EU is simply paying for the problems it created. (Much like the USA and Latin America.)

And what about nations that are improvident? Even though no other nation has aggressively "intervened" in their internal policies, maybe they just fail to implement rational population control and fail to build up emergency supplies, and then when the inevitable disaster strikes, they expect help? Or maybe the government is so corrupt that no matter HOW hard people work, wealth is siphoned off at the top and development never occurs?

I haven't worked my way through all of the ins and outs of disaster relief, economic displacement, corruption, sanctuary, war, and the flow of capital and people, but so far I've gotten to the point where I know you shouldn't mess militarily in most other nations.

So, needs more thought.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, August 24, 2015 4:05 AM

You know, I wrote a lengthy and rather brilliant response, but, for some reason I never quite understand with this site, it sent me back to the Log In page. This is totally frustrating.................

Anyway, FUCK IT!

A whole lot of good it's going to do.

SGG

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Monday, August 24, 2015 6:05 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
No other takers? Nobody wants to spend some quality-time thinking about how to solve the problem of immigration, and what mass movements of people mean in a world where there is no "free" land and every place is already occupied by a different group of people who may have their own ideas how to run a society and an economy?

Figures.

First try to work out an immigration policy for a place with "free" land: the Union of Allied Planets. This is a simpler case than Earth. It should be an easy first step toward a policy for our real world. In the Alliance there are no nations, no national borders, two common languages and everybody speaks at least one or the other. There is a single currency.

It makes you wonder why there was a Unification War, does it not?

Once you work out this immigration policy, the entire 'Verse has to obey you since the Parliament overrules all jerkwater parochial interests: those people who are narrow-minded, provincial, small-town, conservative, illiberal, intolerant.

Now that you have the theoretical Alliance policy and have tested the results on a computer model or, at least, inside some of your friends' heads, expand your theory in small steps to cover a single world with two or ten or a hundred nations and two, ten, or a hundred languages and cultures. And do not forget those hundred internally squabbling national governments that go in & out of power at every election. That will be important to Immigration policy for Earth.

The Camp of the Saints (Le Camp des Saints) is a 1973 French apocalyptic novel by Jean Raspail. The novel depicts a Third World mass immigration to France and the West. The book returned to the bestseller list in 2011. Europe had 4 years (or 42 years depending on when the count begins) to decide about immigration. Does Europe need more time? Or will it never decide and simply flail about in a routine and daily crisis as has the USA?

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Monday, August 24, 2015 12:04 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm trying to figure out how if there is an approach which balances the needs of the immigrants with the needs of the people already there.

Do you want to see what uncontrolled immigration does? Just look at Native Americans. Or the Aborigines in Australia, or the Maori.

People living where they live have a right to live without being overrun or forced off their land. That means USAns have a right to live in the USA. Goose sauce = gander sauce.

I don't know what the source of your emotional reaction is ... you might want to explain what it is that you think feels threatened, and what you think you're defending, because you're lashing out like this is some sort of existential threat and as far as I'm concerned it's a discussion and a thought-exercise.

Take a deep breath, and please explain what you think is so wildly offensive about negating birthright citizenship.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, August 24, 2015 12:25 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
You know, I wrote a lengthy and rather brilliant response, but, for some reason I never quite understand with this site, it sent me back to the Log In page. This is totally frustrating.................

Anyway, FUCK IT!

A whole lot of good it's going to do.

SGG

It seems to me that the site logs people off almost at random. It doesn't seem to have to do with time of day because it has logged me off at any time, and it doesn't seem to have to do with how long I've been logged on with "no activity" because it has logged me off after just a few moments of being logged on. Maybe it has to do with the number of people who are logged on or trying to log on, because there's no apparent pattern or trigger.

What works for me when I try too "save response" or "update post" and get the "Please log in" message is

Before you do anything else, hit the browser "BACK" button. This should bring up the last page that was in PC memory, which should include the post that you just entered.

On the same screen, open up a text editor of ANY sort: Word, gedit, emailer... anything that will hold the text you're trying to save. Open up a blank email or a text editing page (new document).

Highlight your FFF post by left-mouse-button-hold-and-drag, and then once the text is highlighted, right mouse click on the highlighted text and select "COPY". This puts the text onto a little portion of memory called clipboard.

Right mouse-click on the blank text editor page and select "PASTE". This puts your post safely into another application, where it will remain while you ...

Log (back) into FFF.net, and open a REPLY TO window.

You can try just right-clicking on the open RELY window, and selecting PASTE. If your post is still on the clipboard, it will copy onto the newly opened window. But if the text has been lost from the clipboard for whatever reason, you can still highlight-COPY-PASTE from the copy that you placed in your other application, and the SAVE RESPONSE. If you get a chance to try out this recovery procedure, let me know how it works.

I wish that you would re-post your reply. I'm always interested in what you have to say. I may disagree with it, though!

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, August 24, 2015 12:47 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

As usual, I've stepped into a hornet's nest and the only people that I agree with so far are WHOZIT (go figure!) and KIKI. Maybe if I took you thru the thought-process that got me here, it might help smooth the discussion.

Southern California is host to a number of contagious tropical diseases, including TB. My niece, when she was picking her ER residency, told me that interns like to come to LA County Hospital because not only do you see all the usual indigent patients, you get to see bot fly and TB and all kinds of weird diseases and parasites brought in by immigrants. Yanno, having sick people sneaking across your border doesn't do us any good, and it sure doesn't do THEM any good because they're not be diagnosed or treated either.

That got me to thinking how we treat illegal immigrants:

Out of sight, out of mind.
They're lucky to be here.
If we see them or think about them, maybe we'll throw them a few crumbs.

We had our A/C replaced, and the contractor was clearly using illegal laborers who couldn't speak English. He drove them like donkeys even without time for water or bathroom breaks... they were working in our VERY hot attic space in summer ... and threatened to deport them whenever they slowed down from breakneck speed. Also, because they couldn't speak English, they couldn't understand his instructions, and any sort of extended training would be beyond them, and they did a crappy job. Something I've had experience with with other immigrants who didn't understand English and had no job training either. Do you want someone like that replacing your wiring?

When I hired nannies for our daughter, I always made sure that they could speak English because communicating with a non-English speaker what a seizure looks like, and having THEM communicate with EMTs would have otherwise been a nightmare. (Also, I checked for valid Social Security numbers... but that's another story.)

So I came at the idea of immigration, not from the idea of saving USAn jobs, but of actually treating immigrants like they were human beings, not disposable laborers. WHEN we bring in immigrants, we should make sure that they are able to function fully in our economy and society, not assume they'll work in the shadows and only acknowledge them when we need someone to dig a ditch or change a diaper. Learning the language is important, because it allows access training and a host of other services.

The only reason why our immigration policy is a fucked up as it is is because it creates a pool of very cheap, very disposable labor.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, August 24, 2015 4:44 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

We had our A/C replaced, and the contractor was clearly using illegal laborers . . .

You saw a crime called "Exploitation of Unlawful Workers". Don't just tell us.

Visit the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement online tip form at http://www.ice.gov/tipline

Section I of the form allows you to include your name, email and phone number. This is optional, however, and you can omit it if you wish to remain anonymous. Under section II select "Employment/Exploitation of Unlawful Workers" and select that the complain involves a business or company. Provide the details about the company hiring undocumented workers in section III. Provide the location of the business and include a summary of up to 2,500 characters giving as much information as you have about the undocumented workers at this business.

Reporting by Phone

U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement also accepts anonymous tips via their toll free tip line. Call the line at (866) 347-2423. Do not report a company by phone if you have already done so online, however. When asked, provide as much information about the situation as possible. You should be able to give the name of the company and details about the undocumented workers. If you want, you can provide your name and contact information when making a tip, but you can remain anonymous if you prefer.

Followups and Rewards

U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement does not provide status updates on tips. It does provide the assurance that all tips "will be promptly forwarded to the responsible office for follow up action as deemed appropriate." If you have additional information however, you can call or submit it online. If you provide your contact information, it is possible that you will receive a monetary award. However, U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement states that, while it has the ability to pay for information, there is no guarantee that you will be compensated.

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Monday, August 24, 2015 5:49 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

THANKS. That's extremely useful information.

FWIW I don't believe I've ever hired anyone who used illegal labor. That's because I tend to hire contractors I know who hire people I know. Or for small jobs I hire and pay directly. But I've always been a bit ambivalent. These good wages aren't going to illegals. And while I'm not exploiting anyone, I'm not helping the problem, either.

The City and County of Los Angeles passed a living wage ordinance. If the whole state would pass a similar ordinance, it would help prevent abuse of illegals by contractors at least in California. That's because every contract drawn up would have to include the living wage calculation, instead of exploitative wages being hidden in the total amount.

I've had arborists use Spanish speaking people. But the (Anglo) arborist was fluent in Spanish, and it was obvious the workers had been with him a while - they were highly trained and very skilled in their work, had what seemed to be all the propers tools in good condition, and had, and used, safety equipment including harnesses and ropes. Sometimes non-English speakers aren't being exploited, even though I think that's pretty rare.

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Monday, August 24, 2015 6:14 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

The City and County of Los Angeles passed a living wage ordinance. If the whole state would pass a similar ordinance, it would help prevent abuse of illegals by contractors at least in California. That's because every contract drawn up would have to include the living wage calculation, instead of exploitative wages being hidden in the total amount.

Since employers won't admit to cheating employees and employees won't go to the cops for fear of deportation, that leaves it up to the customers to report the crimes of employers. Most customers would rather do nothing than the right thing.

"I know that virtually all of you feel that compelling our businesses to pay workers more is somehow unfair, or is too much government interference. Most of you think that we should just let good examples like Costco or Gap lead the way. Or let the market set the price. But here’s the thing. When those who set bad examples, like the owners of Wal-Mart or McDonald’s, pay their workers close to the minimum wage, what they’re really saying is that they’d pay even less if it weren’t illegal. (Thankfully both companies have recently said they would not oppose a hike in the minimum wage.) In any large group, some people absolutely will not do the right thing. That’s why our economy can only be safe and effective if it is governed by the same kinds of rules as, say, the transportation system, with its speed limits and stop signs." The Pitchforks Are Coming… For Us Plutocrats
www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/the-pitchforks-are-coming-for-
us-plutocrats-108014_Page3.html

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Monday, August 24, 2015 6:59 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Originally posted by second:

"Since employers won't admit to cheating employees and employees won't go to the cops for fear of deportation, that leaves it up to the customers to report the crimes of employers. Most customers would rather do nothing than the right thing."

Now, here's the thing. I work for a government agency. Landscaping, cleaning, maintaining agency vehicles, working at the lowest level in information management, and security are all contracted out. As a government agency, my employer is required to put these and other services out for bid, and unless there's a compelling reason to do otherwise, select the lowest bidder.

I have friends and acquaintances in all those areas, and I KNOW what kind of crap the employers are pulling with their employees. Shorting checks, bouncing checks, making them inscrutable so no one knows what exactly is being paid and deducted ... The contractor for security told one of their employees to intercept the bids coming in for the next security contract, and record who was bidding on the job. When the employee refused, she was fired. The contractors are THAT bad.

At the very least, the living wage ordinance airs out the bids for public institutions, and institutions that get public money. They have to show they're complying with the law in how they award contracts. And all of that information, is, by law, public.

This ordinance doesn't guarantee that all employers will stop exploiting workers. But by creating stiff competition for employees, and also public awareness, and even by potentially exposing exploitative contractors, it has the potential to improve the situation.

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Tuesday, August 25, 2015 3:09 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

At the very least, the living wage ordinance airs out the bids for public institutions, and institutions that get public money. They have to show they're complying with the law in how they award contracts. And all of that information, is, by law, public.

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Tuesday, August 25, 2015 4:38 AM

Yes, I have done this a handful of times, whenever I'm in the 'zone' and writing something brilliant, and it has worked (I highlight my text and then have it ready to paste). It has saved me frustration on 2 occasions.

I have done this little thing a total of 5 times, so of course, I haven't had to use it 3 times and thought it was safe to fly without a net. I was wrong!

But thanks for the info anyway.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
You know, I wrote a lengthy and rather brilliant response, but, for some reason I never quite understand with this site, it sent me back to the Log In page. This is totally frustrating.................

Anyway, FUCK IT!

A whole lot of good it's going to do.

SGG

It seems to me that the site logs people off almost at random. It doesn't seem to have to do with time of day because it has logged me off at any time, and it doesn't seem to have to do with how long I've been logged on with "no activity" because it has logged me off after just a few moments of being logged on. Maybe it has to do with the number of people who are logged on or trying to log on, because there's no apparent pattern or trigger.

What works for me when I try too "save response" or "update post" and get the "Please log in" message is

Before you do anything else, hit the browser "BACK" button. This should bring up the last page that was in PC memory, which should include the post that you just entered.

On the same screen, open up a text editor of ANY sort: Word, gedit, emailer... anything that will hold the text you're trying to save. Open up a blank email or a text editing page (new document).

Highlight your FFF post by left-mouse-button-hold-and-drag, and then once the text is highlighted, right mouse click on the highlighted text and select "COPY". This puts the text onto a little portion of memory called clipboard.

Right mouse-click on the blank text editor page and select "PASTE". This puts your post safely into another application, where it will remain while you ...

Log (back) into FFF.net, and open a REPLY TO window.

You can try just right-clicking on the open RELY window, and selecting PASTE. If your post is still on the clipboard, it will copy onto the newly opened window. But if the text has been lost from the clipboard for whatever reason, you can still highlight-COPY-PASTE from the copy that you placed in your other application, and the SAVE RESPONSE. If you get a chance to try out this recovery procedure, let me know how it works.

I wish that you would re-post your reply. I'm always interested in what you have to say. I may disagree with it, though!

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Tuesday, August 25, 2015 5:20 AM

The only reason why our immigration policy is a fucked up as it is is because it creates a pool of very cheap, very disposable labor.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ahhhhh, there's the key, or at the very least, one of the keys. The trouble stems from companies abusing the system and promoting cheap disposable labor. From which springs forth a whole slew of socio-economic maladies.
In turn you feed the Jingo monster: people blaming the poor slobs that come from other countries seeking a better life for their loved ones back "home."

For instance, I found out that someone I met a few years back arrived here from another country (in his country they spoke English) and he said that the exchange rate, he found out, was 6 to 1. Six of his 'dollars' for one of ours. His family was in some financial distress and had to ask an uncle for a loan. It took $6000 of his 'dollars' to get $1000 US dollars. And so, he worked to pay that loan back to his uncle. He said that in his country they lived ok, better than most, but not rich.

This story is repeated probably a thousand times over, maybe millions of times over. And in some of the poorer countries, it becomes the ONLY story.
I am dumbfounded when I see people speaking ill of those folks who are 'forced' to seek a better life, especially when I know that they would prefer to stay in their homeland. Many yearn to return to their native land, the land where they were born, to have peace and live in the land they love. Some even try desperately to hold onto their culture, language and customs to bring a piece of home with them.

I remember, when I was a teenager, travelling to the land of my parents and expecting to see huts and people living in caves, and how surprised I was when I saw how much it resembled the U.S. Burger King, McDonalds and Pizza Huts everywhere.

But here we have greedy employers looking to turn a profit at any cost. These are human beings folks, and underneath it all, they just want what any of us want - to live in peace and enjoy our families.

SGG

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Tuesday, August 25, 2015 1:51 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
What about the words written on the board carried by the lady with the lamp, "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses, yearning for freedom" ?

The words were already ironic when "Give me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" was written by Emma Lazarus in 1883 because in 1882 the Chinese Exclusion Act became law. It was one of the most significant restrictions on free immigration in US history, prohibiting all immigration of Chinese laborers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Colossus

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Tuesday, August 25, 2015 10:06 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

There's actually something global about the rise of Trumpism, and his blend of extreme hostility to immigration paired with centrist or even at times left-wing stances on elements of the welfare state.

In a wide range of countries across Europe, newish parties — often, though not always with roots in ideological extremism — are gaining support with platforms that emphasize economic nationalism and anti-immigrant politics, often paired with a more centrist view on the welfare state.

Roughly the Trump ideological mix, in other words, except without the bombastic billionaire. And one of the few exceptions to the trend is Italy, where the main center-right political party has long been lead by Silvio Berlusconi, a bombastic billionaire with anti-immigrant views.

Consider the current situation in Sweden: an August 20 poll showed Jimmie Åkesson’s Sweden Democrats Party . . . The examples continue at www.vox.com/2015/8/25/9203405/trump-european-far-right

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Wednesday, August 26, 2015 12:11 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Trump is opposed to it. “Having a low minimum wage is not a bad thing for this country,” Trump said. It would certainly make us more competitive globally, because as Trump says, “it’s the United States against other places,” where the taxes and wages are lower."

There are a few national answers to the ponzi scheme of profit, which needs an increasing base of poor to keep the system going.

One is to compete on the cost of production aka 'cheap labor' - to be the fastest to get to the bottom of the barrel in terms of wages, safety, infrastructure, education and healthcare, and of course the environment.
Many countries follow that model. Did you know that Vietnam is China's China?
That seems to be the only solution Trump knows, which doesn't surprise me, as he's a dunderhead.

Another solution is to be advanced enough that you can offer something literally no one else can in terms of the products of labor. In effect, to have a market monopoly on technology.
That's the kind of solution Germany seems to be pursuing. But it's a solution only rarely available, because not everyone can be 'the' best.

If you're a country that has a valuable resource that's scare in other countries, then your people can subsist as "hewers of wood and drawers of water", extracting resources to sell on the global market.
Saudi Arabia is one country that follows that model. But it's a specialized solution, and it does put you at the mercy of technology finding a substitute for your resource; and other countries' economies, since if they're ailing, they're not going to buy your product.

And then there are people who are promoting isolationism as an answer to global competition. But isolationism and capitalism can't exist together, since capitalism can't survive in a closed system. It must expand, or it'll die.

Or you could exit the capitalist system and do something different, economically speaking.

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Wednesday, August 26, 2015 12:56 AM

I believe in that lofty ideal, very much so, and I used to think "where are those that feel the same way I do."

Even though I was born and raised in this country, I got that look from people and often a verbal taunt, "why are you here" "Hey, 'mira' a Spanish word meaning 'look' - but said with an American slang and 'go back where you came from 'Paydro' (Pedro with a heavy English accent).

Spic, roach boy and other lovely and dehumanizing, derogatory comments. All because I didn't look like the others. Back then I didn't know what to say, but I loved my country - the USA. I loved baseball, football and apple pie. I grew up watching patriotic movies like Sgt. York, the Sullivan Brothers, Run Silent; Run Deep and loved every minute of it. Those bullies, hurt my soul, I wondered what I did to deserve such venomous treatment. I felt less than.

Today, to those bullies I say: eat shit and die. I belong where I belong. I am 100% a red-blooded American male. I am not 'Paydro' or Hey, mira! You don't have to slow down and practically spell out words in English for me to understand - I speak perfect English, period. Actually, I was an honor student. I lived facing racism on a daily basis. Racism and bias were my constant tormentors. I am steadfastly Democratic, as my sainted grandmother, and cried when JFK was brutally assassinated. I was 10 years old.

I am a direct product of those 'yearning to be free' and that parchment declaring independence from a ruthless monarch.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
What about the words written on the board carried by the lady with the lamp, "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses, yearning for freedom" ?

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Wednesday, August 26, 2015 9:52 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Let me get this straight. If I want the admiration and blessings of the most flamboyant, judgmental Christians in America, I should marry three times, do a queasy-making amount of sexual boasting, verbally degrade women, talk trash about pretty much everyone else while I’m at it, encourage gamblers to hemorrhage their savings in casinos bearing my name and crow incessantly about how much money I’ve amassed?

Seems to work for Donald Trump.

Polls show him to be the preferred candidate among not just all Republican voters but also the party’s vocal evangelical subset.

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Wednesday, August 26, 2015 11:52 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Polls show him to be the preferred candidate among not just all Republican voters but also the party’s vocal evangelical subset.

Personally, I find the teachings of Christ have very little to do with Christianity.

Some people see Ted Cruz as the inheritor of the religious republican wing if/ when Trump falls from grace.
http://www.salon.com/2015/08/26/ted_cruz_is_the_true_gop_dark_horse_ho
w_hes_winning_over_the_fanatical_right_at_exactly_the_right_time/

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Thursday, August 27, 2015 8:15 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

The Christians ought to notice Trump is un-presidential in tone and character. Example:

Trump opened a conference by yelling at Univision anchor Jorge Ramos, who he claimed asked a question without being called on. He continued to yell at Ramos at some length about being out of turn, then turned to one of his campaign staffers, nodded, and pointed at Ramos, whereupon the staffer removed Ramos from the conference.

The next reporter’s question, naturally, was, “Why did you have him thrown out?” Amazingly, Trump responded to this question, I’m not kidding, by answering, “I didn’t have him thrown out, you’ll have to ask security, whoever they are.” When reporters pressed him with the obvious fact that the person who had him removed was on his staff, he immediately changed his tune to say that it was because the reporter was a “highly emotional person,” with no mention of the fact that 30 seconds earlier he had been denying that he had Ramos thrown out at all.

When Trump is faced with someone willing to be as much of a bully as he is, he couldn't handle it, so he had the guy thrown out and then lied about doing it.
www.redstate.com/2015/08/25/awesome-terrible-majesty-donald-trump-pres
s-conference/

"Psychopaths often cover up their deficiencies with a ready and engaging charm, so it can take time to realize what you are dealing with. Kent A. Kiehl used to ask inexperienced graduate students to interview a particularly appealing inmate before acquainting themselves with his criminal history. These budding psychologists would emerge quite certain that such a well-spoken, trustworthy person must have been wrongly imprisoned. Until, that is, they read his file and went back to reinterview him, at which point he would say offhandedly, 'Oh, yeah, I didn't want to tell you about all that stuff. That's the old me.'...
www.delanceyplace.com/view-archives.php?p=2878

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Thursday, August 27, 2015 9:16 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The problem is JOBS.

Illegal immigrants are seen as taking jobs away from Americans ... and, they do! Illegals are an easy way of finding cheap exploitable foreign labor without the muss and fuss of transporting raw materials and products, all in the convenience of your own backyard!

People are stupid if they think Trump ... one of the mega-wealthy ... has a solution to spread the wealth.

But EVEN IF ... no, ESPECIALLY IF .... you have an economic plan that involves creating meaningful jobs for everyone who can and wants to work, you can't absorb a huge amount of incoming labor. And what if you want to be ecologically sustainable? Do you think, for example, that the southwest with its chronic water shortage can absorb a few ten million more?

Once upon a time, when "the west" was free for the taking ... once the Indians were gotten rid of, of course ... and forty acres and a mule could be gotten for the price of being willing to work the land ... there was a place for everyone.

To drive a point home, if you want to see an example of who paid for uncontrolled immigration, all you have to do is look at natives in any land settled by Europeans, whether is was north and south America, Australia, or New Zealand.

But, all of this for later.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Thursday, August 27, 2015 10:41 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The problem is JOBS.

To drive a point home, if you want to see an example of who paid for uncontrolled immigration, all you have to do is look at ...

You are not thinking big enough.

If US were to undertake a mass deportation campaign its cost over five years would be $285 billion, which "would mean new taxes of $922 for every man, woman, and child in our country. $5,100 fewer dollars for the education of every public and private school student from prekindergarten to the 12th grade."

Check those figures at http://www.businessinsider.com/deporting-all-of-americas-illegal-immig
rants-would-cost-a-whopping-285-billion-2012-1

“Removing all undocumented immigrants would cause the labor force to shrink by 6.4 percent, which translates to a loss of 11 million workers. As a result, 20 years from now the economy would be nearly 6 percent or $1.6 trillion smaller than it would be if the government did not remove all undocumented immigrants.” http://immigrationimpact.com/2015/03/20/mass-deportation-would-be-a-co
stly-blunder/

Since you can buy the whole USA today with $100 trillion, these costs are not small. www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/Ni_FedBeaSna/TableView.asp?SelectedTable=
12&FirstYear=2011&LastYear=2015&Freq=Qtr

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Friday, August 28, 2015 1:56 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So, the reason to keep illegal immigrants in the USA is because they're cheap labor, and it's too expensive to deport them?

Sounds pretty corporatist to me!

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, August 28, 2015 4:45 AM

Don't get me started on the Evangelicals! The Corporate church and the teachings of Jesus have little to do with one another. Yes, I said it!

A true believer will pray and let Jesus. The Corporate church teaches their flock to stand up in what you believe in and pound it into the non-believers brain until they succumb. It's onward Christian soldiers, let's fight!

But it's no longer: "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.…"

Christians are being told that they must be aggressive to inherit what has been promised. It is no longer about faith and waiting on the Lord. That they could no longer stand idly by and watch as man commits these abominations. They feel that God gives them the right to judge and act in his stead. This is NOT the teachings of Christ, but a sick and twisted interpretation. It is Christian extremism, made flesh. God lessons through Christ, was to trust in him and allow him to exact judgment and punishment; that he would be judge, jury and executioner.

All these actions shows the wicked nature and imperfection of man; and, moreover, his impatience to obey and trust in God. Instead of standing silent and listening for his guidance and wisdom, man insists to show that he is smarter than God in his disobedience and wanton impatience for the perfect world or heaven on Earth. In addition to a lack of obedience, faith and patience, they show a total lack of humility. It is all interconnected. They encourage killing adults who perform abortions; to which I say, what's the difference? You're encouraging killing. It says: Thou shall NOT kill.

Christianity, in my mind, has become synonymous with extremism. But this country is slowly being turned over to extremism generally in the political sense. Evangelicals have been encouraged by their pastors to affect change and put God back in charge by voting. Before it was God bless the US and now it's God take the wheel.
They are trying to force everyone to believe as they do, or else. And they won't be content until everyone is a Christian, whether you like it or not. That notion, for me, flies in the face of what it means to be an American, we love our Freedom too much. Ted Cruz and his ilk are looking to control you and your life, NO Freedom!
No Choice! That's what it's come to.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

Polls show him to be the preferred candidate among not just all Republican voters but also the party’s vocal evangelical subset.

Personally, I find the teachings of Christ have very little to do with Christianity.

Some people see Ted Cruz as the inheritor of the religious republican wing if/ when Trump falls from grace.
http://www.salon.com/2015/08/26/ted_cruz_is_the_true_gop_dark_horse_ho
w_hes_winning_over_the_fanatical_right_at_exactly_the_right_time/

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Friday, August 28, 2015 5:02 AM

It's funny what people are willing to ignore. Trump backpedaled so fast, he nearly ran over his own words. His followers are the same people who voted for Bush II in hopes that he would restore the status quo: 'those in power or aspiring toward power, I got your back' but instead got Bernie Madoff. Bush/Cheney was a big middle finger to the Middle Class. The Evangelicals are still reeling from Bush II's betrayal, hence the T-Party.

Trump was asked what was his favorite verse from the Bible (which he claims is his favorite book, even over the Art of the Deal), and he couldn't/wouldn't give an answer. For me, it's Psalm 23, and I'm not even a died-in-the-wool Christian.
By the way, his answer was that it was too personal (Bullshit answer).

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
The Christians ought to notice Trump is un-presidential in tone and character. Example:

Trump opened a conference by yelling at Univision anchor Jorge Ramos, who he claimed asked a question without being called on. He continued to yell at Ramos at some length about being out of turn, then turned to one of his campaign staffers, nodded, and pointed at Ramos, whereupon the staffer removed Ramos from the conference.

The next reporter’s question, naturally, was, “Why did you have him thrown out?” Amazingly, Trump responded to this question, I’m not kidding, by answering, “I didn’t have him thrown out, you’ll have to ask security, whoever they are.” When reporters pressed him with the obvious fact that the person who had him removed was on his staff, he immediately changed his tune to say that it was because the reporter was a “highly emotional person,” with no mention of the fact that 30 seconds earlier he had been denying that he had Ramos thrown out at all.

When Trump is faced with someone willing to be as much of a bully as he is, he couldn't handle it, so he had the guy thrown out and then lied about doing it.
www.redstate.com/2015/08/25/awesome-terrible-majesty-donald-trump-pres
s-conference/

"Psychopaths often cover up their deficiencies with a ready and engaging charm, so it can take time to realize what you are dealing with. Kent A. Kiehl used to ask inexperienced graduate students to interview a particularly appealing inmate before acquainting themselves with his criminal history. These budding psychologists would emerge quite certain that such a well-spoken, trustworthy person must have been wrongly imprisoned. Until, that is, they read his file and went back to reinterview him, at which point he would say offhandedly, 'Oh, yeah, I didn't want to tell you about all that stuff. That's the old me.'...
www.delanceyplace.com/view-archives.php?p=2878

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Friday, August 28, 2015 5:10 AM

Let me get this straight. Illegal immigrants crossed the border, left their families and their homelands, put a gun to the heads of upstanding, law-abiding Americans and forced them out of their jobs.

Is that what you're saying?

'Taking jobs away from Americans' implies just that.

And the owners? They, of course, had no say in the matter, did they?

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The problem is JOBS.

Illegal immigrants are seen as taking jobs away from Americans ... and, they do! Illegals are an easy way of finding cheap exploitable foreign labor without the muss and fuss of transporting raw materials and products, all in the convenience of your own backyard!

People are stupid if they think Trump ... one of the mega-wealthy ... has a solution to spread the wealth.

But EVEN IF ... no, ESPECIALLY IF .... you have an economic plan that involves creating meaningful jobs for everyone who can and wants to work, you can't absorb a huge amount of incoming labor. And what if you want to be ecologically sustainable? Do you think, for example, that the southwest with its chronic water shortage can absorb a few ten million more?

Once upon a time, when "the west" was free for the taking ... once the Indians were gotten rid of, of course ... and forty acres and a mule could be gotten for the price of being willing to work the land ... there was a place for everyone.

To drive a point home, if you want to see an example of who paid for uncontrolled immigration, all you have to do is look at natives in any land settled by Europeans, whether is was north and south America, Australia, or New Zealand.

But, all of this for later.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, August 28, 2015 5:19 AM