TROLL COUNTRY

Israel Vs. Palestine: Evil Scorecard

POSTED BY: PIZMOBEACH
UPDATED: Sunday, October 8, 2023 22:45
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Friday, January 9, 2009 10:18 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


I hope the thread title doesn't sound like I'm trivializing this conflict - not at all, just trying to start a reasonably factual time line for the recent aggressions and to log actions by either side as they happen.

My recent stance was, "they're both doing bad things," and while that still holds, it does appear from the most recent reports that Israel is taking the lead in doing the most heinous acts, even "War Crimes." At least imho.

Staring with this article in the NYTimes that tries to describe the events that lead to the end of the 6 month Egypt brokered cease fire from June of last year:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/world/middleeast/15gaza.html?_r=1

There's a lot of finger pointing and outside pressures in the article (Hamas versus Fatah), neither side is innocent, there are a number of players and there are a number of ways to justify recent actions from each side.

In the last 2 days however, Israel has been guilty of major acts of violence against civilians and against aid workers from the UN and the Red Cross. There are just too many for them to waive away with their "we don't target civilians" response/excuse.

UN and Red Cross convoys that have been given clearance by Israeli forces to bring in aid, have repeatedly come under fire and have taken casualties. Not only did they go through all the proper channels to get clearance but they use those vehicles that have the big RED CROSSES on their sides. One time maybe, several times is just not believable.

Listening to the lead UN rep for humanitarian aid describe the actions on NPR yesterday was chilling. Perhaps there are mitigating circumstances? Harder to believe.

Plus:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/10/world/middleeast/10zeitoun.html?ref=
world


Civilians being gathered into one location and then that building being shelled shortly thereafter. This may be the worst one yet. It's hard to imagine a more purely evil act than this, especially for a group with it's history.

I have no agenda, just looking for facts, please add them as you see them. (apologies if posted elsewhere already).

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Friday, January 9, 2009 10:33 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


[sarcasm] NO NO NO! You've got it all wrong!!! Israelis are the GOOD GUYS!!!!! [/sarcasm]



---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 10:36 AM

RIVERLOVE


Israel gave Gaza self-rule in 1994, unilaterally withdrawing the last of its citizens and soldiers from Gaza in 2005. Hamas, voted into power in 2006, fought and defeated their political and military rival, Fatah, to seize de facto control of Gaza in 2007. In the past eight years, Hamas has fired more than 10,000 rockets and mortars into Israel, 7,000 of them after Israel's 2005 withdrawal. With improved technology, reportedly assisted by Iran, Hamas' rockets can now fly 24 miles before impact and explosion, thereby threatening, injuring and killing more and more Israelis living in southern Israel. That's what this is all about now, Israel finally said enough.

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Friday, January 9, 2009 10:37 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Get all the info you can but consider the source

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/200915854482046
90.html


Lets party like its 1939

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Friday, January 9, 2009 2:28 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Get all the info you can but consider the source

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/200915854482046
90.html


Lets party like its 1939



Article about US media "bias." Some of the comments are the best part:

"U.S residents should start reading news from all sources if they want to know something close to reality. The media is so politically influenced that it is impossible for it to report in fair manner in US."

True. Sometimes I think people who don't live here don't realize that the US is like 50 countries and it's hard just keeping up on our own current events, let alone foreign conflicts that have been ongoing for thousands of years. We'd LIKE to, but there's only so much time in the day.

And this is also what we see:

"It is true that the news coverage in the US is biased in favor of the Jews but it is also true that the Palestinians do little to get sympathy in the US. When they elect Hamas they ask for war. When they march it is not for peace but waiving AK's and pledging destruction. Palestine needs a Gandi."

Thank God/Allah for the Internet - you can now follow Al Jazedera and events in Gaza by Twitter:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/20081229165319379
71.html


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Friday, January 9, 2009 3:46 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Someone already keeps a scorecard, and I am surprised no one else has so far mentioned it.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

I mean, if you wanna nitpick the details, it's pretty damn clear.

-F

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Friday, January 9, 2009 5:08 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
When they elect Hamas they ask for war. When they march it is not for peace but waiving AK's and pledging destruction. Palestine needs a Gandi."

Thank God/Allah for the Internet - you can now follow Al Jazedera and events in Gaza by Twitter:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/20081229165319379
71.html




Would a fair comparison be if the Republicans had of won your recent election, the US voted to be attacked ?


I don't think Gandi would have survived this conflict. The mossad would of killed him or more likely ignored him and simply taken whatever they wanted anyway.

Remember this ethic cleansing started in 1948, the only time the Palestinians get any notice is when they fight back, and also it was the Jewish terrorists who managed to take over Palestine in 1948 by using similar tactics...




Lets party like its 1939

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Friday, January 9, 2009 8:01 PM

DREAMTROVE


I would call that Evil vs. Eviler, but still both Evil. Of course, if we threw in the US Govt. on dead muslim children in what I suppose can only be called the former Persian Empire. (Really, I can't think of another term than encompasses this region and nothing else.)

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:12 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
" When they elect Hamas they ask for war. When they march it is not for peace but waiving AK's and pledging destruction. Palestine needs a Gandi."

Would a fair comparison be if the Republicans had of won your recent election, the US voted to be attacked ?



Gino - Just so you know, that was not my comment, it was from the Al Jazeera site.

Point well taken.

I think the poster's point is also a good one. That is how much of the world sees Hamas, even the larger Arab (not just Muslim) Middle East. It may be inaccurate and unfair, but it's also a reality they shouldn't ignore. They should consider taking the money they spend on rockets and hire a good marketing firm.



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Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:34 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Someone already keeps a scorecard, and I am surprised no one else has so far mentioned it.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

I mean, if you wanna nitpick the details, it's pretty damn clear.

-F



Thx for the link - I wonder how many here have seen this site? I appreciate their list of Recommended News Sources:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/daily_news.html

So far this seems like a pretty good one:

http://www.vtjp.org/news/news.php

The death ratio charts seem to be popular graphics for supporters of Hamas. How would a similar chart look for US and Insurgent death numbers? I don't discount them but think the articles do a better job.

I want to find details on the wording for the recent proposed UN cease fire - can't believe Hamas didn't want it, but the wording would probably make that more clear.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:52 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


*Lovely* - they both suck. AP article:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNC
ndRPRq3gD95K50I80


"In Israel's first official response to the U.N. resolution, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office said more Hamas rockets fired Friday "only prove that the U.N.'s decision is not practical and will not be kept in practice by the Palestinian murder organizations."

Hamas also dismissed the resolution, and spokesmen expressed annoyance they were not consulted.

"Nobody consulted Hamas or talked to Hamas. Nobody put Hamas in the picture and yet Hamas is required to accept it. This is unacceptable," Mohammed Nazzal, a senior Hamas official based in Syria, told Al-Arabiya television.

Hamas has said it won't accept any cease-fire deal that does not include the full opening of Gaza's border crossings. The U.N. resolution emphasized the need to open all crossings, which Israel and Egypt have kept sealed since Hamas militants forcibly seized control of the territory 18 months ago."

Some dude sitting at his desk in Syria says "no deal - my people can continue to hold out." How brave.


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Saturday, January 10, 2009 7:12 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Pizmo,

Here is another piece, I posted it on another thread but it is spot on enough I think its worth another mention here...


http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/200914102257130
539.html



FOCUS: OPINION
Israel's fait accompli in Gaza
By Eric S. Margolis


There are two completely different versions of what is currently happening in Gaza.

In the Israeli and North American press version, Hamas - 'Islamic terrorists' backed by Iran - have in an unprovoked attack fired deadly rockets on innocent Israel with the intent of destroying the Jewish state.

North American politicians and the media say Israel "has the right to defend itself".

True enough. No Israeli government can tolerate rockets hitting its towns, even though the casualty totals have been less than the car crash fatalities registered during a single holiday weekend on Israel's roads.

The firing of the feeble, home-made al-Qassam rockets by Palestinians is both useless and counter-productive.

It damages their image as an oppressed people and gives right-wing Israeli extremists a perfect reason to launch more attacks on the Arabs and refuse to discuss peace.

Israel's supporters insist it has the absolute right to drop hundreds of tonnes of bombs on 'Hamas targets' inside the 360sq km Gaza Strip to 'take out the terrorists'.

Civilians suffer, says Israel, because the cowardly Hamas hide among them.

Actually, it is more like shooting fish in a barrel.

Omitting facts

As usual, this cartoon-like version of events omits a great deal of nuance and background.

Seventy per cent of Palestinian children suffer from psychological trauma [GALLO/GETTY]
While firing rockets at civilians is a crime so, too, is the Israeli blockade of Gaza, which is an egregious violation of international law and the Geneva Conventions.

According to the UN, most of Gaza's 1.5 million Palestinian refugees subsist near the edge of hunger. Seventy per cent of Palestinian children in Gaza suffer from severe malnutrition and psychological trauma.

Medical facilities are critically short of doctors, personnel, equipment, and drugs. Gaza has quite literally become a human garbage dump for all the Arabs that Israel does not want.

Gaza is one of the world's most-densely populated places, a vast outdoor prison camp filled with desperate people. In the past, they threw stones at their Israeli occupiers; now they launch home-made rockets.

Call it a prison riot, writ large.

Eyeing the elections

When the so-called truce between Tel Aviv and Hamas expired on December 19, Israeli politicians were in the throes of preparing for the February 10 national elections.

Israeli politics are playing a key role in this crisis.

Ehud Barak, the defence minister and leader of the Labour party, and Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister and leader of the Kadima party, are trying to prove themselves tougher than Benjamin Netanyahu's hard-line Likud party - and one another.

Israel's elections are only six weeks away, and Likud was leading until the air raids on Gaza began. Kadima and Labour are now up in the polls.

The heavy attacks on Gaza are also designed to intimidate Israel's Arab neighbours, and make up for Israel's humiliating 2006 defeat in Lebanon, which still haunts the country's politicians and generals.

A fait accompli

When the air raids on Gaza began, Barak said: "We have totally changed the rules of the game."

He was right. By blitzing Hamas-run Gaza, Barak presented the incoming US administration with a fait accompli, and neatly checkmated the newest player in the Middle East Great Game - Barack Obama, the US president-elect - before he could even take a seat at the table.

IN DEPTH

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The Israeli offensive into Gaza now looks likely to short-circuit any plans Obama might have had to press Israel into withdrawing to its pre-1967 borders and sharing Jerusalem.

This has pleased Israel's supporters in North America who have been cheering the war in Gaza and have been backing away from their earlier tentative support for a land-for-peace deal.

Israel's successes in having Western media portray the Gaza offensive as an 'anti-terrorist operation' will also diminish hopes of peace talks any time soon.

Obama inherits this mess in a few weeks. During the elections, Obama bowed to the Israel lobby, offering a new US carte blanche to Israel and even accepting Israel's permanent monopoly of all of Jerusalem.

As he concludes forming his cabinet, his Middle East team looks like it may be top-heavy with friends of Israel's Labour party.

Obama keeps saying he must remain silent on policy issues until George Bush, the outgoing US president, leaves office, but his staff appear happy to avoid having to make statements about Gaza that would antagonise Israel's American supporters.

Obama will take office facing a Middle East up in arms over Gaza and the entire Muslim world blaming the US for the carnage in Gaza.

Unless he moves swiftly to distance himself from the policies of the Bush administration, he will soon find himself facing the same problems and anger as the Bush White House.

Arab deal killed

Israel's Gaza offensive is also likely to torpedo the current Saudi-sponsored peace plan, which had been backed by all members of the Arab League.

The plan, now likely defunct, had called for Israel to withdraw to its 1967 borders and share Jerusalem in exchange for full recognition and normalised relations with the Muslim world.

Arab governments will now be unable to sell the deal as they face a storm of criticism from their own people over their powerlessness to help the Palestinians of Gaza.

Egypt, in particular, is being widely accused of collaborating with Israel in further sealing off and isolating Gaza. It seems highly unlikely they will be able to advance a peace plan with Israel for now.

This is a bonus for right-wing Israelis, who have always been dead set against any withdrawal and strongly supported the attack on Gaza.

Other Israeli factions who were always lukewarm about the Saudi peace plan are now unlikely to reconsider it.

Israel's security establishment is committed to preventing the creation of a viable Palestinian state, and refuses to negotiate with Hamas. Unable to kill all of Hamas' men, Israel is slowly destroying Gaza's infrastructure around them, as it did to Yasser Arafat's PLO.

Israel's hardliners point to Gaza and claim that any Palestinian state on the West Bank would threaten their nation's security by firing rockets into Israel's heartland.

Mighty information machine

Israel is confident that its mighty information machine will allow it to weather the storm of worldwide outrage over its Biblical punishment of Gaza. Who remembers Israel's flattening of parts of the Palestinian city of Jenin, or the US destruction in Falluja, Iraq, or the Sabra and Shatilla massacres in Beirut?

The US media has focused on the rockets being fired on Israel from Gaza [GALLO/GETTY]
Though the torment of Gaza is seen across the horrified Muslim world as a modern version of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising by Jews against the Nazis during World War Two, Western governments still appear bent on taking no action.

Though Israel's use of American weapons against Gaza violates the US Arms Export Control and Foreign Assistance Acts, the docile US Congress will remain mute.

Israel's assault on Gaza was clearly timed for America's interregnum between administrations and the year-end holidays, a well-used Israeli tactic.

Hamas refuses to recognise Israel as long as Israel refuses to recognise Hamas and the rights of millions of homeless Palestinian refugees.

It calls for a non-religious state to be created in Palestine, meaning an end to Zionism. Ironically, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the founder and late leader of Hamas, had spoken of a compromise with Tel Aviv shortly before he was assassinated by Israel in 2004.

An inherited mess

Israel's hopes that it can bomb Gazans into rejecting Hamas are as ill-conceived as its failed attempt in 2006 to blast Lebanon into rejecting Hezbollah.

The Fatah regime on the West Bank installed by the US and Israel after Yasser Arafat's suspicious death will be further discredited, leaving the militants of Hamas as the sole authentic voice of Palestinian nationalism.

Hamas, the militant but still democratically elected government of Gaza, is even less likely to compromise.

The Muslim world is in a rage. But so what? Stalin liked to say "the dogs bark, and the caravan moves on," and as long as the US gives Israel carte blanche, it can do just about anything it wants.

The tragedy of Palestine will thus continue to poison US relations with the Muslim world.

Those Americans who still do not understand why their nation was attacked on 9/11 need only look to Gaza, for which the US is now being blamed as much as Israel.

Unless Israel can make 5 to 7 million Palestinians disappear, it must find some way to co-exist with them. Israeli leaders on the centre and right continue to avoid facing this fact.

The brutal collective punishment inflicted on Gaza will likely strengthen Hamas and reverse any hopes of a Middle East peace in the coming years.



What I think the author has missed, is the world would simply ignore the situation if the Palestinians didn't fight, and they do not see their tactics as being negative to their cause,

After all these tactics were successful in the forming of Israel, and more recently in South Africa where Mandela and the ANC also went from terrorists to running a country.

I think Fatah under Arafat tried to use PR more effectively than Hamas, but one there is a lack of resources and two.... to be honest who can change the mindset of Americans when competing against the propaganda machine of the US government anyway ? As we see on this site, there are those open to other opinions and those who would go to their deaths denying the facts of any arguement they are on the other side of.

Lets party like its 1939

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:28 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

I think Fatah under Arafat tried to use PR more effectively than Hamas, but one there is a lack of resources and two.... to be honest who can change the mindset of Americans when competing against the propaganda machine of the US government anyway ? As we see on this site, there are those open to other opinions and those who would go to their deaths denying the facts of any arguement they are on the other side of.



Thx Gino - I'm not in full agreement with all of this but it is good to see another view. Discounting the rocket attacks because they are cheap rockets for instance - that speaks as much to Hamas' feeble and reckless methods as anything else. If someone breaks into your house but doesn't steal anything, you are still going to feel the outrage.

"As we see on this site, there are those open to other opinions and those who would go to their deaths denying the facts of any arguement they are on the other side of."

I'm disillusioned too by the responses on another thread. Otherwise intelligent people acting like children or demanding more violence or just rabid denial.

And I remain hopeful that Obama will do more than rubber stamp the past administration's positions.

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Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:26 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

I think Fatah under Arafat tried to use PR more effectively than Hamas, but one there is a lack of resources and two.... to be honest who can change the mindset of Americans when competing against the propaganda machine of the US government anyway ? As we see on this site, there are those open to other opinions and those who would go to their deaths denying the facts of any arguement they are on the other side of.



Thx Gino - I'm not in full agreement with all of this but it is good to see another view. Discounting the rocket attacks because they are cheap rockets for instance - that speaks as much to Hamas' feeble and reckless methods as anything else. If someone breaks into your house but doesn't steal anything, you are still going to feel the outrage.

"As we see on this site, there are those open to other opinions and those who would go to their deaths denying the facts of any arguement they are on the other side of."

I'm disillusioned too by the responses on another thread. Otherwise intelligent people acting like children or demanding more violence or just rabid denial.

And I remain hopeful that Obama will do more than rubber stamp the past administration's positions.




What action do you think we might have seen without the rocket attacks ?

That I think is the real problem, what other course is open... The UN ? The ICC

unless your Iraq or Serbia most nations thumb their nose at these organizations and with good reason... They do not act fairly or justly.

As for Obama... he sold his soul on this issue already

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerBlog.jhtml?itemNo=832667&cont
rassID=25&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1


unless he was lying, and its hard to hope for that considering all the other unpopular things it is likely he will be facing with the economy.

At best maybe isolationism could be hoped for. When the US is broke enough, the lack of military aid being sent may stabilize the situation, but I doubt it.



Lets party like its 1939

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Monday, January 12, 2009 4:52 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
What action do you think we might have seen without the rocket attacks ?

That I think is the real problem, what other course is open... The UN ? The ICC

unless your Iraq or Serbia most nations thumb their nose at these organizations and with good reason... They do not act fairly or justly.

As for Obama... he sold his soul on this issue already

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerBlog.jhtml?itemNo=832667&cont
rassID=25&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1


unless he was lying, and its hard to hope for that considering all the other unpopular things it is likely he will be facing with the economy.

At best maybe isolationism could be hoped for. When the US is broke enough, the lack of military aid being sent may stabilize the situation, but I doubt it.



What other action? ANY other than more rockets that have little hope other than to annoy.

The world, the UN - may feel saturated with the needs of the oppressed, and as much as the members may take an oath to be World Ambassadors, they are still people like you and me.

Hard to be objective all the time and groups with their public agenda... I'm not surprised when larger nations side with Israel (if not their methods) in this case.

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Monday, January 12, 2009 5:02 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:


As for Obama... he sold his soul on this issue already

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerBlog.jhtml?itemNo=832667&cont
rassID=25&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1


unless he was lying, and its hard to hope for that considering all the other unpopular things it is likely he will be facing with the economy.



Recent events are not playing as favorably in the US for Israel as some in Europe may believe (want to believe?). And he is a shown himself to be someone who wants everyone to be happy and get along. I'd wait until after he takes the oath and gets daily briefings. Of course, that may just make him a bigger supporter, who knows.


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Monday, January 12, 2009 6:27 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
[sarcasm] NO NO NO! You've got it all wrong!!! Israelis are the GOOD GUYS!!!!! [/sarcasm]


The Isrealis and the Palistinians are the good guys. Hamas and the other Islamic terrorists are the bad guys.

For example. Hamas kills innocent Isrealis (with rockets and such). Isreal comes to kill Hamas. Hamas could assemble in the desert to get killed. Instead Hamas chooses to hide in schools, homes, Mosques, and hospitals forcing Isreal to kill them in those locations because Hamas wants the innocent to die with them. Hamas wants the innocent to die, otherwise they would not endanger them. Isreali soldiers only want Hamas to die, which is why they go out of their way to avoid killing the innocent (after all it would be easier to just carpet bomb the whole place, Isreal chooses not to do that...because they care more for the Palestinian people then Hamas does). If Hamas was in the desert (we could give them shovels and such to dig their graves...official UN Peace Shovels) then not a single innocent Palistinian would die (unless they happened to be wandering in the desert that day...maybe the UN could post a sign or something).

We've seen this evil before. In Iraq, for example, a terrorist/insurgent is in a car with his wife and children when it gets hit by a missile fired by a Predator. Its his fault, not the Predator operator or the US. He should have exited his vehicle, walked several hundred meters away and waited patiently to meet Allah. Instead he chose to endanger his family by engaging in a risky lifestyle and not protecting his family from the consequences (kinda like a drunk driver).

Here is my peace plan. Everybody stops shooting. Hamas assembles at a designated location in the desert say...next Thursday. They can bring their guns. At noon they start shooting...does not matter what direction. At five minutes after noon Isreal gets to start shooting. If Isreal kills just Hamas, fine, we declare Isreal the winner and peace restored. If Isreal bombs Hamas AND the Hamas-free cities, then we declare Isreal the loser and peace restored. Then we can talk about big empty spaces in Lebanon...

H

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Monday, January 12, 2009 6:55 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Hero is right. And furthermore, the side that always breaks the peace 1st is Hamas.

Imagine if you lived in Montana in a world where Canada felt it had a right to your land. Unable to invade and take it by force they resort to launching rockets that can fall anytime anywhere in an effort to make you live in terror. You'd want the US military to eliminate that threat.

Again and again it's Hamas that fires 1st. If a peace settlement is brokered in 2009, which will happen eventually, by 2010 Hamas will have broken it again. This is their way.

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Monday, January 12, 2009 9:00 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


They have a way? That better than a plan?



Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Monday, January 12, 2009 9:22 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

Here is my peace plan. Everybody stops shooting. Hamas assembles at a designated location in the desert say...next Thursday. They can bring their guns. At noon they start shooting...does not matter what direction. At five minutes after noon Isreal gets to start shooting. If Isreal kills just Hamas, fine, we declare Isreal the winner and peace restored. If Isreal bombs Hamas AND the Hamas-free cities, then we declare Isreal the loser and peace restored. Then we can talk about big empty spaces in Lebanon...

H



Interesting... I think you are on to something. A violent peace plan should certainly appeal to both sides.

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Monday, January 12, 2009 2:29 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
What action do you think we might have seen without the rocket attacks ?

That I think is the real problem, what other course is open... The UN ? The ICC

unless your Iraq or Serbia most nations thumb their nose at these organizations and with good reason... They do not act fairly or justly.

As for Obama... he sold his soul on this issue already

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerBlog.jhtml?itemNo=832667&cont
rassID=25&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1


unless he was lying, and its hard to hope for that considering all the other unpopular things it is likely he will be facing with the economy.

At best maybe isolationism could be hoped for. When the US is broke enough, the lack of military aid being sent may stabilize the situation, but I doubt it.



What other action? ANY other than more rockets that have little hope other than to annoy.

The world, the UN - may feel saturated with the needs of the oppressed, and as much as the members may take an oath to be World Ambassadors, they are still people like you and me.

Hard to be objective all the time and groups with their public agenda... I'm not surprised when larger nations side with Israel (if not their methods) in this case.



With the present UN structure, even if a resolution is brought against Israel, it is either ignored.. or vetoed by the US

So in my mind they are a useless organization... get rid of the veto and maybe... but until then

The rockets are the only thing bringing the problem out into the open, no rockets you just have a massive prison camp on starvation rations being screwed over by Israel at their whim



Lets party like its 1939

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Monday, January 12, 2009 2:33 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"The rockets are the only thing bringing the problem out into the open, no rockets you just have a massive prison camp on starvation rations being screwed over by Israel at their whim"

Absolutely.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, January 12, 2009 3:05 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Get rid of the rockets and there is no problem to bring out, except that Gaza is being run by ruthless thuglords, but certainly no one who thinks Hamas is a legitimate government would care about that.

So let me know when you can figure out a way of doing that, because Hamas isn't going to just hand them to you.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, January 12, 2009 3:06 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Hamas is the legitimate government of Gaza, at least according to the Israel-hating Nazi website Wikipedia.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, January 12, 2009 3:57 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Get rid of the rockets and there is no problem to bring out, except that Gaza is being run by ruthless thuglords, but certainly no one who thinks Hamas is a legitimate government would care about that.

So let me know when you can figure out a way of doing that, because Hamas isn't going to just hand them to you.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero



And I suppose if they were ruthless thuglords in the favor of the United States this would make all the difference in your mind...


lets see the ANC and Mandella had US Support and were terrorists

the Contras in Nicaragua

the Shah of Iran

etc, etc, etc

just because you dont like them doesn't mean they are not the legitimate government in Gaza... they were elected and when Fatah tried to illegally dissolve that government they were the victors of the civil war that followed.

While they violated the peace treaty, Israel NEVER complied with the provisions in the first place



Lets party like its 1939

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Monday, January 12, 2009 4:03 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

Here is my peace plan. Everybody stops shooting. Hamas assembles at a designated location in the desert say...next Thursday. They can bring their guns. At noon they start shooting...does not matter what direction. At five minutes after noon Isreal gets to start shooting. If Isreal kills just Hamas, fine, we declare Isreal the winner and peace restored. If Isreal bombs Hamas AND the Hamas-free cities, then we declare Isreal the loser and peace restored. Then we can talk about big empty spaces in Lebanon...

H



Interesting... I think you are on to something. A violent peace plan should certainly appeal to both sides.

How is this then, give both sides a week to come to some kind of agreement, or if not nuke them all Jew and Muslim alike.

Ukraine can supply the weapons, they need the cash



Lets party like its 1939

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Monday, January 12, 2009 4:05 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


That’s two votes for Hamas.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, January 12, 2009 4:15 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Blue Sun Company Woman- you have it completely bass-akwards.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Monday, January 12, 2009 4:33 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"That’s two votes for Hamas."

No, it's three votes, or maybe an infinity of votes plus 2, for the fact that Hamas IS the legitimate government of Gaza, if you count that anti-Israel Nazi site Wikipedia.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, January 12, 2009 5:05 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Okay, three votes to not care that Gaza is left to Hamas.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, January 12, 2009 5:25 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Hamas is the legitimate government of Gaza, at least according to the Israel-hating Nazi website Wikipedia.



If you have a cite of Wikipedia saying that Hamas is the legitimate government of Gaza, please provide it.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, January 12, 2009 6:58 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Hamas is the legitimate government of Gaza, at least according to the Israel-hating Nazi website Wikipedia.



If you have a cite of Wikipedia saying that Hamas is the legitimate government of Gaza, please provide it.



"Keep the Shiny side up"




Conflict between Fatah and Hamas had been simmering since Hamas won the legislature elections in January 2006. The U.S. and Israel attempted to undermine the democratically elected Hamas[4] while strengthening President Mahmoud Abbas's position and forcing Hamas from power. The U.S., Egypt, and Israel also armed and trained Fatah for a possible 'War' with Hamas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)

But if Hamas leaders thought its parliamentary victory would bestow greater credibility on them in the eyes of the international community - or if they thought in any way that they would be given any more leeway - they were mistaken

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2001/israel_and_the_pa
lestinians/profiles/1654510.stm




Lets party like its 1939

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Monday, January 12, 2009 7:04 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0202/p09s02-coop.html

What 'Israel's right to exist' means to Palestinians
Recognition would imply acceptance that they deserve to be treated as subhumans.
By John V. Whitbeck

from the February 2, 2007 edition


DEAN ROHRER

JEDDAH, SAUDI ARABIA - Since the Palestinian elections in 2006, Israel and much of the West have asserted that the principal obstacle to any progress toward Israeli-Palestinian peace is the refusal of Hamas to "recognize Israel," or to "recognize Israel's existence," or to "recognize Israel's right to exist."

These three verbal formulations have been used by Israel, the United States, and the European Union as a rationale for collective punishment of the Palestinian people. The phrases are also used by the media, politicians, and even diplomats interchangeably, as though they mean the same thing. They do not.

"Recognizing Israel" or any other state is a formal legal and diplomatic act by one state with respect to another state. It is inappropriate – indeed, nonsensical – to talk about a political party or movement extending diplomatic recognition to a state. To talk of Hamas "recognizing Israel" is simply to use sloppy, confusing, and deceptive shorthand for the real demand being made of the Palestinians.

"Recognizing Israel's existence" appears on first impression to involve a relatively straightforward acknowledgment of a fact of life. Yet there are serious practical problems with this language. What Israel, within what borders, is involved? Is it the 55 percent of historical Palestine recommended for a Jewish state by the UN General Assembly in 1947? The 78 percent of historical Palestine occupied by the Zionist movement in 1948 and now viewed by most of the world as "Israel" or "Israel proper"? The 100 percent of historical Palestine occupied by Israel since June 1967 and shown as "Israel" (without any "Green Line") on maps in Israeli schoolbooks?

Israel has never defined its own borders, since doing so would necessarily place limits on them. Still, if this were all that was being demanded of Hamas, it might be possible for the ruling political party to acknowledge, as a fact of life, that a state of Israel exists today within some specified borders. Indeed, Hamas leadership has effectively done so in recent weeks.

"Recognizing Israel's right to exist," the actual demand being made of Hamas and Palestinians, is in an entirely different league. This formulation does not address diplomatic formalities or a simple acceptance of present realities. It calls for a moral judgment.

There is an enormous difference between "recognizing Israel's existence" and "recognizing Israel's right to exist." From a Palestinian perspective, the difference is in the same league as the difference between asking a Jew to acknowledge that the Holocaust happened and asking him to concede that the Holocaust was morally justified. For Palestinians to acknowledge the occurrence of the Nakba – the expulsion of the great majority of Palestinians from their homeland between 1947 and 1949 – is one thing. For them to publicly concede that it was "right" for the Nakba to have happened would be something else entirely. For the Jewish and Palestinian peoples, the Holocaust and the Nakba, respectively, represent catastrophes and injustices on an unimaginable scale that can neither be forgotten nor forgiven.

To demand that Palestinians recognize "Israel's right to exist" is to demand that a people who have been treated as subhumans unworthy of basic human rights publicly proclaim that they are subhumans. It would imply Palestinians' acceptance that they deserve what has been done and continues to be done to them. Even 19th-century US governments did not require the surviving native Americans to publicly proclaim the "rightness" of their ethnic cleansing by European colonists as a condition precedent to even discussing what sort of land reservation they might receive. Nor did native Americans have to live under economic blockade and threat of starvation until they shed whatever pride they had left and conceded the point.

Some believe that Yasser Arafat did concede the point in order to buy his ticket out of the wilderness of demonization and earn the right to be lectured directly by the Americans. But in fact, in his famous 1988 statement in Stockholm, he accepted "Israel's right to exist in peace and security." This language, significantly, addresses the conditions of existence of a state which, as a matter of fact, exists. It does not address the existential question of the "rightness" of the dispossession and dispersal of the Palestinian people from their homeland to make way for another people coming from abroad.

The original conception of the phrase "Israel's right to exist" and of its use as an excuse for not talking with any Palestinian leaders who still stood up for the rights of their people are attributed to former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. It is highly likely that those countries that still employ this phrase do so in full awareness of what it entails, morally and psychologically, for the Palestinian people.

However, many people of goodwill and decent values may well be taken in by the surface simplicity of the words, "Israel's right to exist," and believe that they constitute a reasonable demand. And if the "right to exist" is reasonable, then refusing to accept it must represent perversity, rather than Palestinians' deeply felt need to cling to their self-respect and dignity as full-fledged human beings. That this need is deeply felt is evidenced by polls showing that the percentage of the Palestinian population that approves of Hamas's refusal to bow to this demand substantially exceeds the percentage that voted for Hamas in January 2006.

Those who recognize the critical importance of Israeli-Palestinian peace and truly seek a decent future for both peoples must recognize that the demand that Hamas recognize "Israel's right to exist" is unreasonable, immoral, and impossible to meet. Then, they must insist that this roadblock to peace be removed, the economic siege of the Palestinian territories be lifted, and the pursuit of peace with some measure of justice be resumed with the urgency it deserves.

Lets party like its 1939

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Monday, January 12, 2009 7:08 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


In other words, even other Arab states don’t consider Hamas a legitimate government.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, January 12, 2009 10:12 PM

FREMDFIRMA


How bout spinning the telescope around and looking in the correct end for once.

Israel damn well needs to recognize Palestines "right to exist" - which they fucking don't.

Till that happens - which VERY specifically includes not letting "settlers" outright take Palestinian land using violent means, and THEN backing them up when the Palestinians defend themselves against the bastards, they're the aggressor here, no matter the technicalities.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:14 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/20091139514376677
9.html


Olmert call 'behind US abstention'


Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, has said a last-minute telephone call to George Bush forced the US to abstain in a crucial UN vote on the Gaza war.

In a speech late on Monday, Olmert said Condoleezza Rice, the US secretary of state, was left "pretty shamed" at the vote and had to abstain on a resolution she had personally arranged.

The Israeli prime minister narrated how he demanded to talk to Bush last Thursday, minutes before a vote in the UN Security Council on a resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.

"When we saw that Rice, for reasons we did not really understand, wanted to vote in favour of the resolution ... I looked for President Bush," Olmert said.

Bush, who apparently was taken off a stage in Philadelphia where he was making a speech, said he was not informed on the resolution and was "not familiar with the phrasing."

"I'm familiar with it. You can't vote in favour." Olmert claimed telling the US president.

"He[Bush] gave an order to the secretary of state and she did not vote in favour of it, a resolution she cooked up, phrased, organised and manoeuvred for," Olmert said.

The Israeli PM described Bush as an "unparalleled friend" of Israel.

UN call

Fourteen of the Security Council's 15 members supported the resolution, which has until now failed to stop Israel's operation in Gaza.

Olmert criticised the UN resolution, saying that "no decision, present or future, will deny us our basic right to defend the residents of Israel".

Israel launched its offensive on December 27, in what it said was an attempt to stop Hamas firing rockets into southern Israel from Gaza.

After a first week of intense air campaign, Israel sent ground forces into Gaza in the second week of fighting and is now making its deepest push into the Strip.



What a joke, the UN needs to eliminate the veto



Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:09 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
How bout spinning the telescope around and looking in the correct end for once.

Israel damn well needs to recognize Palestines "right to exist" - which they fucking don't.



I'd say that both sides need to recognize each other's right to exist.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:46 AM

FREMDFIRMA


There's that - and also you nailed what MY problem with Hamas is dead-bang a bit earlier, in that them and Olmerts goons don't wanna stop this shit cause they're feeding off each other to stay in power at the expense of both their peoples.

Barring certain extremists, most Palestinians would be completely satisfied if the damn Izzies would stay on THEIR side of the border, quit cutting off power, water and medical supplies, and end the collective shelling of entire neighborhoods in response to even the tiniest excuse to do so.

But that ain't what they do - and no, the rockets don't help the situation none, but that's a goldfish spittin in the eye of a shark when it comes to it, and the overblown reaction the Izzies have about it has at least begun to bring the worlds attention on the matter, and made them look awful bad since to most reasoning folk it really does look like they're just praying for excuses to act as they do...

That bein said, hell yes, prick that he was, Arafat was a heck of a lot better at this stuff than the current crop of imbeciles, but that's not so high a bar, is it now ?

Hell with blowing up civvies, start clippin leaders and this problem is gonna come to resolution pretty quick - or at the very least quit propping up the damn Izzies on my tax dime, they wanna be a recognized nation then they can damned well either get off our tits or apply for statehood/protectorate, cause that's the choice I'd give em, I had any say in it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 4:28 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

GEEZER

I'd say that both sides need to recognize each other's right to exist.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



Well said

No offense, but when Geezer has become the voice of reason, I'm afraid that says something about the rest of us. Ack! it's some chemical plothole that is turning us all into reavers!

Keep keeping the Shiny side up.

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:05 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Hillary saying the right things, NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/us/politics/14state.html?hp

"Mrs. Clinton said America must recognize Israel’s right to defend itself from Hamas rockets but cannot ignore the suffering of Palestinians citizens, as well as Israelis. “Real security for Israel, normal and positive relations with its neighbors” as well as genuine security for Palestinians must continue to be America’s ideal, she said."

Mrs Clinton also expressed concern over a lack of a season II of Firefly, saying, "It saddens be to know that I will start my service as Secretary of State with a great weight still on the world's shoulders. A cancer of the unthinking and the work of the joyless media aparatchik, that must be addressed... even before this Gaza junk is tackled...I will work without equal to bring about a season 2 or a second movie, or both."

Many in the press core were seen to be openly weeping at these words...

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 10:59 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
How is this then, give both sides a week to come to some kind of agreement, or if not nuke them all Jew and Muslim alike.


I considered that. But that would involve us. My solution lets Isreal and Hamas settle the problem without outside interference except by the UN (who hand out the official Peace Shovel...the one with the blue steel blade).

Notice my plan involves the destruction of Hamas as a predicate to peace regardless of whether Isreal wins or loses.

H

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:34 PM

DREAMTROVE


Pizmo

A word of warning:

Hillary knows how to say the right thing when it's called upon to do so, but don't trust her to believe it. She is easily on the top most evil people alive list. Madeline Albright is arguably the most evil person alive, in terms of action, but at least Albright has come out and admitted to being evil. Wolfowitz and Perle and Kristol, the jewish contingent of the anti-semite brigade, are pretty much on the level, so while they are all evil, they are pretty transparent, with little pretense. Clintonistas have a layer of deception which defrauds the casual observer.

Bush is personally evil, but not on the level that he's put up as. He's kind of boston strangler level of evil. Cheney is not count dracula, in spite of the resemblence, but he really believes in his mission, in spite of the deception. He probably is not even stalin evil, he's just dead. Osama is also not high enough on the evil list, he's another manipulative two face of evil, but the recent proposition that the leader of Hamas is acting deliberately against palestine, that's almost a new low.

But no, I think I can safely say, and back up with about 10,000 pages if you want, that Hillary Clinton is probably the closest thing to pure evil that we have. The way she can turn on and kill a close friend in minutes, because there's a personal strategic advantage, that's much more triple-8 than anything I've seen. And some politicians are pretty damn evil.

And no, I'm not kidding.

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:37 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
How is this then, give both sides a week to come to some kind of agreement, or if not nuke them all Jew and Muslim alike.


I considered that. But that would involve us. My solution lets Isreal and Hamas settle the problem without outside interference except by the UN (who hand out the official Peace Shovel...the one with the blue steel blade).

Notice my plan involves the destruction of Hamas as a predicate to peace regardless of whether Isreal wins or loses.



Hero, congrats for thinking. I think it's possible, but I don't think it's a workable plan. Something else would step in. You have to make peace *with* Hamas. People can change.


Gino, I basically like you and agree with what you post here. I want you to consider that you're proposal is probably the only universally anti-semitic thing ever posted. No offense. Unless you only mean it as a bluff.

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:39 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Preachin' to the choir... she's a changeling for sure.

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:01 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
There's that - and also you nailed what MY problem with Hamas is dead-bang a bit earlier, in that them and Olmerts goons don't wanna stop this shit cause they're feeding off each other to stay in power at the expense of both their peoples.



The question I wish the Hamas supporters would ask themselves is this.

If the relative military strengths of Hamas and the Israeli government were reversed, do you think that there would be more or less dead Israelis than there are dead Palestinians now?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:17 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
How is this then, give both sides a week to come to some kind of agreement, or if not nuke them all Jew and Muslim alike.


I considered that. But that would involve us. My solution lets Isreal and Hamas settle the problem without outside interference except by the UN (who hand out the official Peace Shovel...the one with the blue steel blade).

Notice my plan involves the destruction of Hamas as a predicate to peace regardless of whether Isreal wins or loses.

H



Then I take it you are against the aid the United State is and has been providing Israel ?



Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:31 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
How is this then, give both sides a week to come to some kind of agreement, or if not nuke them all Jew and Muslim alike.


I considered that. But that would involve us. My solution lets Isreal and Hamas settle the problem without outside interference except by the UN (who hand out the official Peace Shovel...the one with the blue steel blade).

Notice my plan involves the destruction of Hamas as a predicate to peace regardless of whether Isreal wins or loses.



Hero, congrats for thinking. I think it's possible, but I don't think it's a workable plan. Something else would step in. You have to make peace *with* Hamas. People can change.


Gino, I basically like you and agree with what you post here. I want you to consider that you're proposal is probably the only universally anti-semitic thing ever posted. No offense. Unless you only mean it as a bluff.



Actually it was sarcasm... of a sort


For any peace to be workable a level playing field must be established. Right now the Palestinians have nothing at all to lose. The wrong inflicted on them is compounded every year nothing changes, and there is no impartial forum or redress for them to take. They only have the fight.

Heros statement implies equality, where none exists. If Israels position here is so strong, then why did the US go against Serbia over the KLA and Kosavo ?

The KLA committed many acts of terrorism, and the Serbian army surely would have ended the problem in the same manner Hero suggests... until the US pushes NATO into bombing Serbia.

To me Muslim or Jews or Christians.... I really don't give a crap. You treat people fairly and expect the same in return, and the way the US supports Israel is hypocritical when you consider the way the act in other similar situations...

So if you going to support the genocide of one group, then hell might as well go for both... everyone has dirty hands here



Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:38 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
There's that - and also you nailed what MY problem with Hamas is dead-bang a bit earlier, in that them and Olmerts goons don't wanna stop this shit cause they're feeding off each other to stay in power at the expense of both their peoples.



The question I wish the Hamas supporters would ask themselves is this.

If the relative military strengths of Hamas and the Israeli government were reversed, do you think that there would be more or less dead Israelis than there are dead Palestinians now?

"Keep the Shiny side up"



Would they have been driven off their land to begin with if that had been the case?

Mind you look at some past acts

http://www.rense.com/general21/pastzionist.htm


Following are just a few of the many massacres committed by Jewish-Zionist terrorists, notably by the Zionist Hagana, Irgun and Stern Gang groups.

Don't expect any Hollywood films highlighting any of these massacres:

1. King David Hotel, July 22, 1946.
2. Sharafat, Feb. 7, 1951.
3. Deir Yassin, April 10, 1948.
4. Falameh, April 2, 1951.
5. Naseruddine, April 14, 1948.
6. Quibya, Oct. 14, 1953.
7. Carmel, April 20, 1948.
8. Nahalin, March, 28, 1954.
9. Al-Qabu, May 1, 1948.
10. Gaza, Feb. 28, 1955.
11. Beit Kiras, May 3, 1948.
12. Khan Yunis, May 31, 1955.
13. Beitkhoury, May 5, 1948.
14. Khan Yunis Again, Aug. 31, 1955
15. Az-Zaytoun, May 6, 1948.
16. Tiberia, Dec. 11, 1955.
17. Wadi Araba, May 13, 1950.
18. As-Sabha, Nov. 2, 1955.
19. Gaza Again, April 5, 1956.
20. Houssan, Sept. 25, 1956.
21. Rafa, Aug. 16, 1956.
22. Qalqilyah, Oct. 10, 1956.
23. Ar-Rahwa, Sept. 12, 1956.
24. Kahr Kassem, Oct. 29, 1956.
25. Gharandal, Sept. 13, 1956.
26. Gaza Strip, Nov. 1956.
26. Gaza Strip, Nov. 1956.

July 2, 1946: The King David Hotel in Jerusalem was bombed, killing 91 people.

Menachem Begin, who was later awarded the Nobel Prize for peace, is the same man who planned the destruction of the King David Hotel and the massacre of Deir Yassin. Ex prime minister, Shamir, was originally a member of the Jewish terrorist gang called Irgun, which was headed by none other than Menachem Begin. Shamir later moved over to the even more radical "Stern Gang," which committed many vicious atrocities.

Shamir himself has defended the various assassinations committed by the Irgun and Stern gangs on the grounds that "it was the only way we could operate, because we were so small. So it was more efficient and more moral to go for selected targets." The selected moral targets in those early days of the founding of the state of Israel included bombing of the King David Hotel and the massacre of Deir Yassin.

April 9, 1948: A combined force of Irgun and Stern Gangs committed a brutal massacre of 260 Arab residents of the village of Deir Yassin. Most of whom were women and children. The Israeli hordes even attacked the dead to satisfy their bestial tendencies. In April, 1954, during Holy Week, and on the eve of Easter, The Christian cemeteries in Haifa were invaded, crosses broken down and trampled under the feet of these miscreants, and the tombs desecrated. The Israeli military conquest, therefore was made against a defenseless people, who had been softened up by such earlier massacres as Deir Yasin (where 250 Arabs; men, women and children were massacred).

The Jew, Weizman, referred to the massacre as this "miraculous simplification of our task," and Ben Gurion said that "without Deir Yasin there would be no Israel." Americans are not told that ten percent of the Arabs killed by the Israelis in 1948 were Christian, and that ten percent of the Arab property confiscated belonged to Christians. Nor are they told that Israel's massacres and military actions forced 100,000 Christians to become refugees.

Accounts by Red Cross and United Nations observers who visited the scene said that the houses were first set on fire and the occupants were shot down as they came out to escape the flames. One pregnant woman had her baby cut out of her stomach with a knife. Reminiscent of the acts committed by their brother Jews in Russia during and after the Bolshevik (Jewish) takeover. The head of the International Red Cross delegation in Palestine, Jacques de Reynier, drove into the village and was met by a detachment of Irgun terrorists. In his report of the massacre the previous night, he wrote: "All of them were young, some even adolescents, men and women armed to the teeth: revolvers, machine-guns, hand-grenades, and knives, most of them still blood-stained. A beautiful young girl with criminal eyes showed me hers (knife) still dripping with blood, she displayed it like a trophy."

May 1948: The U.S. appointed Count Folke Bernadotte of Sweden to mediate between the Arabs and the Israelis. In his first progress report (of Sept. 16, 1948) he recommended that the U.N. should affirm "the right of the Arab refugees to return to their homes in Jewish controlled territory at the earliest possible date." The Israelis responded in their own quiet way. The following day Bernadotte was murdered in Jerusalem.

Responsibility for the spectacular assassination, which caused an international outcry, was claimed by an unknown group, "Fatherland Front," which was actually a cover for Shamir's Stern Gang. Yoshua Zeitler and Meshlam Markover of Stern told Israeli television in 1989 that they respectively directed and led the operation that killed the Swedish diplomat and his French aide-de-camp. Zeitler, 71, said he decided to speak now because of fear that the U.N. and the "goyim" (non-Jews) are again trying to force Israel into concessions.

February 1949: Israel launched an offensive across the Armistice lines with Egypt which brought its forces to the Gulf of Aqaba, occupying the Palestinian police post of Umm Rashrash which they afterwards named Eilat.

1950: Israelis seized the Al-Uja de-militarized zone on the Egyptian side and Baqqara on the Syrian side, expelling their Arab inhabitants and razed their homes to the ground by bulldozers.

1950-1955: Israeli forces unleashed more than 40 acts of armed aggressions against Arab states, almost all causing a heavy loss of life. This included attacks and massacres in Qibya, Huleh 1953, Nahalin, Kfar Qassem in 1954, Gaza and a Syrian outpost on Lake Tiberias in 1955.

October 14-1 5, 1953 -- Under the command of Ariel Sharon, Israeli squads attacked the unarmed Arab village of Qibya in the demilitarized one. Where they blew up 42 houses and killed more than 60 residents who were trapped inside. The details were so gruesome that the U.S. joined in a U.N. condemnation of the Israeli action, and for the first and only time, suspended aid to Israel in reprisal.

July 1954: Israeli intelligence planted "a ring of spies (moles)" in Cairo. Its task was to begin sabotage operations against selected Egyptian, British and American targets. On July 14, the Alexandria post office was fire-bombed, and the U.S. Information Agency offices in Cairo and Alexandria were damaged by fire started by phosphorous incendiary devices, as was a British-owned theater.

Members of the spy ring were caught, and they confessed. They had been planted by Modin, the Israeli military intelligence organization. The purpose, presumably, was to sabotage Egyptian relations with the U.S. and Britain. Various commissions of inquiry into the affair conducted in Israel were never able to decide whether or not Israeli Defense Minister Pinchos Lavon authorized the operation.

MORE JEWISH TERRORISM

1956: Squads of Israeli soldiers committed a hideous atrocity in the Palestinian village of Kafr Qasim, 47 innocent people were shot down in cold blood. The careful and premeditated mass murders, never received great attention in the West. Although the Israeli courts convicted eight soldiers of murder, they were all released within two years of their trial, and within three years one of them who had been convicted of killing 43 Arabs in an hour, was engaged by the municipality of Ramleh as the "officer responsible for Arab affairs in the city." In October 1956 Israel, backed by England and France, attacked Egypt to gain control of the Suez Canal.

Taking advantage of the situation created by Egypt's decision of nationalization of the Suez Canal, Israel joined forces with Britain and France to invade Egypt. As a result, it occupied the Sinai Peninsula, seized the Gaza Strip, and Sharm Al sheikh which guarded the Strait of Tiran and the entrance to the Gulf of Aqaba. a year letter it withdrew reluctantly under the combined pressure of the U.N., U.S.A. and the Soviet Union.

There was no military necessity for this destruction; it was sheer vengeance against Arab Christians. This action created another 300,000 Arab refugees, thus making a total refugee population of Christian and Muslin Arabs, which is larger than the combined populations of Montana, Nevada and Wyoming. It was during this campaign that the Israeli's attacked the U.S.S. Liberty with the death of 34 of its number. If this had been an Egyptian or a Russian attack, American would have been at war, but the Jewish vote of America silenced any American criticisms of this action. Americans are also not told that Israel has always refused to obey any mandate of the United Nations. Resolutions affirmed by vote every year since 1948 recognize the right of the return of Palestinian refugees, but Israel always refuses to obey. Israel has been condemned over and over again for breaking the charter and now fulfilling the conditions upon which she was allowed to become a member!

1960-1962: Israeli forces attacked Syrian villages on Lade Tiberias and brought death to hundreds of Arab civilians.

1966: Squads of Israeli soldiers raided the Jordanian village of Sammu, they killed 18 civilians, wounded 100 others and demolished 130 houses including a school, a clinic and a mosque.

1967: THE U.S.S. Liberty was deliberately attacked in international waters as it monitored communications during the Six-Day War. Israel used U.S.-donated equipment to jam the ship's S.O.S., hoping to sink it and murder all aboard before word could get out. 34 sailors were butchered and 170 wounded in this blatant Act of War. The Liberty was part of the Sixth Fleet, a powerful group of men and ships paid for by U.S. Taxpayers to protect the Israeli's. What do the Jews think of our American Service Men, the descendants of the men who pulled their chestnuts out of the fire in World War II?

June 5, 1967: Israeli committed its biggest, most treacherous and premeditated aggression against Egypt, Syria and Jordan. After destroying Arab aircraft on the ground in a lightening attack, Israeli forces invaded and occupied the rest of Palestine, that is, the West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, the Syrian Golan Heights and the Egyptian Sinai Peninsula. In the first days of its aggression and in plain disregard of the truth, Israel fabricated a charge of aggression against its victims and presented it in a dramatic manner to the U.N. Security Council. Western media spread this fabricated story and the whole world sympathized with the supposed victim. In 1967 the Israeli's made a third ruthless blitzkrieg attack upon the Arabs. This time they deliberately destroyed three quarters of a million dollar's worth of church property.

The great deception practiced by Israel on the U.N. and the whole world is now completely discredited, the Israelis, therefore, changed their tactics and rely nowadays on the argument that, they were NOT attacked by Egypt, they were in danger of BEING attacked, and hence they resorted to a so-called pre-emptive strike. Alan Hart quotes a former Israeli Director of military intelligence as telling him "if Nasser had not given Israel the excuse to attack the Arabs, Israel would have invented a pretext for war within six or ten months" because its military planners had decided that the time had come to knock out vast amounts of mainly Soviet-supplied Arab armor. Yitzhak Rabin, who as chief of staff planned this attack told Le Monde in February 1968, quite simply: "We knew that Nasser did not intend to attack."

February 15, 1968: Israel invaded PLO bases in Karamah, on the eastern bank of the River Jordan with helicopter-borne troops and tanks. Three hundred commandos fought off 1,500 Israeli soldiers and force them to retreat. The battle lasted all day and into the evening. Although the village was totally destroyed, the Palestinian defenders repelled the Israelis and inflicted heavy casualties among the invaders. By the Israeli account, they lost 28 soldiers and 90 were wounded.

1969: The Israelis distinguished themselves by committing a horrible crime, in retaliation of attrition war across the Suez Canal, Israeli war planes raided an Egyptian school "Bahr al Baker" in southern Egypt killing 75 children and wounding over 100.

August 1969: An Israeli set fire to one of the most sacred Islamic shrines. Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, causing extensive damage to it. This crime plunged over one billion Muslims throughout the world into the deepest anguish.

March 12, 1970: Israeli forces invaded part of South Lebanon known as "Fatah-Land" killing a number of Palestinian and Lebanese civilians.

September 8, 1972 -- Without any apparent cause or reason, Israeli Phantoms bombed Palestinian targets in Lebanon and Syria in a series of raids killing hundreds of civilians. This action was explained by the Israeli prime minister the next day, who in the Knesset, that "Israel had now adopted a new policy to strike at the terrorist organizations where ever we can reach them."

February 21, 1973: Israel landed commando units on the coasts of the northern Lebanese city of Tripoli. They attacked two Palestinian refugees camps, dynamited several houses and buildings, some over the heads of their occupants, killing 35 refugees and wounding a similar number. On the same day, Israeli war planes shot down a Libyan Civilian Aircraft over the Sinai Desert killing over 100 passengers.

April 10, 1973: Israeli commando units with the help of some Lebanese collaborators stormed into a residential quarter in East Beirut and killed three PLO leaders: Yusef Al Najjar, Kamal Adwan and Kamal Nasser.

1974: Israeli air-borne commando units attacked Beirut airport and destroyed 13 Lebanese civilian aircraft on the ground.

In the same year, Israeli planes intercepted a civilian Syrian aircraft and forced it to land at Lydda (Lod) airport on suspicion that it was carrying a Palestinian commando leader. Christian shrines in Jerusalem were subjected to several acts of aggression and robbery. This included damaging the church of the Holy Sepulchre, burying four other Christian centers, and stealing the diamond Crown of the Virgin Mary.

1975-1980: Israeli's intelligence service, the Mossad, distinguished itself by feats of terrorist actions that killed a number of Arab and Palestinian diplomats, scientists and journalists such as the PLO representatives in London, Rome, Paris and Brussels, prominent Palestinian journalist and writer Ghassan Kanafani and the Egyptian nuclear scientist Dr. Al Mashad.

1981: Putting their so-called pre-emptive policy in action, Israeli warplanes raided and destroyed a peaceful Iraqi nuclear reactor near Baghdad.

June 6, 1982: The Israeli armed forces invaded Lebanon. Less than two weeks after its election, the New Menachem Begin government unleashed the first blow in its war to liquidate the PLO in Lebanon.

June 1982: Israeli forced launched their savage invasion of Lebanon. As a result of this invasion a great number of refugee camps, Lebanese towns and villages were destroyed. Israeli warplanes launched eight raids on Palestinian targets in South Lebanon and Beirut, killing nearly one thousand people and wounding many others. The fantasy of the "pre-emptive strike policy" was dropped and even the Jerusalem Post correspondent was at pains to explain the purpose of the bombing raids. "The past few days of activities on the northern border followed five weeks of quiet. It is not know what triggered Israeli's Friday afternoon raid." Outraged by Israel's onslaught and the cruel destruction of Beirut, Jewish journalist Jacobo Timmerman called Begin "unbalanced" a "terrorist" and "a disgrace to the people." He accused Sharon of helping to make Israel "the Prussia of the Middle East.&quo t;

July 17, 1982: U.S. supplied F-4 and F-5 jets swooped low over Beirut in 4 passes, bombing the densely-populated Fakahani district. Five tall apartment buildings were destroyed, 200 people were killed and 800 wounded. Forty percent of the victims were small children, and one of the survivors was an unborn baby pulled by doctors from the dead mother's womb. Israel's then Chief-of-staff Rafael Eitan announced on Israeli Radio that civilian causalities were unimportant and that the Arab causalities suffered as of the July 17 attack did not yet constitute the Israeli "final solution."

September 1982: Israeli raids and bombardments continued during the weeks following the raid on Beirut in July. It was the beginning of the invasion of Beirut; after which an 80 days war led by Ariel Sharon, (then War Minister of Israel) resulted in the destruction of much of Beirut, killing and wounding thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese civilians. It was during this invasion that the massacre of the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps was committed. Where over 2,500 Palestinian women, children and elderly people were slaughtered in cold blood. Even the Israeli high court held a number of the Israeli military officers, including Sharon, responsible.

October 1982: Israeli terrorists bombed the houses, cars and offices of three elected Palestinian mayors on the West Bank, Nablus, Ramallah and Al Beireh.

1984: Israeli warships and gunboats intercepted merchant ships on the high seas off the coast of Lebanon and kidnapped a number of Palestinians.

1985: Israeli planes raided and destroyed the PLO headquarters in Tunis.

1986: Israeli secret agents assassinated a noted Palestinian cartoonist Naji Al Ali, in London.

April 1988: Israeli commando units stormed into the house of Khalil Al Wazir, in Tunis. Al Wazir who was the most senior PLO military commander and believed to be in charge of the Intifada, was murdered while sleeping.

February and March 1989: Israeli F-16 planes pounded Palestinian targets in Lebanon's Shouf Mountains, Damour and the Beka's valley with a series of raids killing a numbers of civilians, including 15 school children in Damour.

April 14, 1989: Israeli border guards and settlers attacked the peaceful and unarmed village of Nahalin near Bethlehem. Eight Palestinians were massacred for no reason and over 50 were injured. The killings took place late in the night and at the beginning of the Holy month of Ramadan.

Could this sort of actions by the Jews be the reason they have been run out of every country on earth, except the United States, and there is not much doubt that one day America will realize just how much the Jews despise and loth them; and they too will rise up and drive them out.

---------------------------------------------

Expulsions of Jews from host districts, cities and countries:

554, Diocese of Clement (France)
561, Diocese of Uzes (France)
612, Visigoth Spain
642, Visigoth Empire
855, Italy
876, Sens
1012, Mainz
1181, France
1290, England
1306, France
1348, Switzerland
1349, Heilbronn (Germany)
1349, Hungary
1388, Strasbourg
1394, Germany
1394, France
1422, Austria
1424, Fribourg & Zurich
1426, Cologne
1432, Savory
1438, Mainz
1439, Augsburg
1446, Bavaria
1453, Franconia
1453, Breslau
1454, Wurzburg
1485, Vincenza (Italy)
1492, Spain
1495, Lithuania
1497, Portugal
1499, Germany
1514, Strasbourg
1519, Regensburg
1540, Naples
1542, Bohemia
1550, Genoa
1551, Bavaria
1555, Pesaro
1559, Austria
1561, Prague
1567, Wurzburg, Genoese Republic
1569, Papal States
1571, Brandenburg
1582, Netherlands
1593, Brandenburg, Austria
1597, Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
1614, Frankfurt
1615, Worms
1619, Kiev
1649, Ukraine
1654, Little Russia (Ukraine)
1656, Lithuania
1669, Oran (North Africa)
1670, Vienna
1712, Sandomir
1727, Russia
1738, Wuerttemburg
1740, Little Russia (Ukraine)
1744, Bohemia
1744, Livonia
1745, Moravia
1753, Kovad (Lithuania)
1761, Bordeaux
1772, Jews deported to the Pale of Settlement (Russia)
1775, Warsaw
1789, Alsace
1804, Russian villages
1808, Russian villages and countrysides
1815, Lubeck & Bremen
1815, Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
1820, Bremes
1843, Russian border with Austria & Prussia
1862, Tennessee (USA), by military order of General Grant
1866, Galatz, Romania
1919, Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
1938-45, Axis-Nazi controlled lands
1948, Arab countries.

Lets party like its 1939

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:17 PM

DREAMTROVE


Gino

Of course, but take this one, skipping John's theory that the Nazi's were a Rothschild plot to create Zionism, which is plausible, but event driven, I don't see a necessity for it, and I tend not to believe in things that don't *need* to be true. But nonetheless, consider this:


1. The main reason for antisemitism in Germany was that the jewish banking concerns had funded the german war machine, and then had gone and lent money to the opposition during the war. This was the principle charge levelled against them.

Now, sure, the jewish people didn't do this, some bankers did. But, let's carry it further.

2. WWII, the same thing happened with the gnomes of zurich, they were lending money to all sides, and the federal reserve was set up so that the gnomes of liberty street could do the same thing, because the gnomes of london already were.

Now let's be logical and assume that some of these concerns were jewish, but that jews weren't funding the holocaust, and so that necessitates that some of these concerns which were lending money were not jewish.

So, that brings me to

3. It's not Judaism per se that's causing the problem, it's the manner of thinking that the jews have gotten themselves stuck in at times, but they are far from alone in that.

4. What we have to do is look at the root causes:

Socialism, not socialist parties or ideas, but state socialism as imposed cooperation

Capitalism, not the free market, old style ancient egyptian commodity capitalism

Old Testament condoning of genocide which is a part of all major western cultures, not just religions

Arms races, testing new weapons, strategies and tactics.

Feeling of Supremacy, not superiority. The superior would have no need to rule, the would be like the elves. *(japan, most of their history, except when de facto ruled by germany under puppet Tojo) as opposed to the supremacist, who must rule, because his belief is not that he is superior, thought he might believe this, but that he has the right to determine the fate of others. In the ME conflict we see a lot of this from all sides, including our own.

Globalism, anyone believing in a united earth as the only chance for lasting peace

Machiavellian attitude towards any of these, especially the last

World population control. The people who believe in this might do so because they think its right, or because they think their ethnic group is about to be overrun, and so others need to be controlled (west pressuring china on the one child rule in exchange for unfettered free trade: Watch, if that free trade breaks down, that one child policy is out the window)

And of course, bogus historical territorial claims. Every piece of land on earth is claimed several times over. Israel/Palestine, for example, can be claimed by:

Israel
Palestine
Eqypt
Greece
Italy
Syria
Lebanon
Jordan
Saudi Arabia
Iran
Somalia
Eritrea

Am I leaving out anyone? I'm sure I am. So, this "we used to own that piece of land" was a strong part of WwI+II on all sides, and is always a problem, and a strong part of the palestinian conflict, but the list of people who could claim that is usually absurd. Lithuania can lay claim to large parts of Russia, the Ukraine and if I recall correctly, all of Poland. But who cant lay claim to Poland?

Usually, yes, you're correct, I've studied a lot of history, and in each of the above cases, jewish populations were expelled because of what the jewish financial elite was doing with credit economy and what the jewish theocratic elite was doing in trying to change local govt. policies.

But this isn't unique to jews, and it does not logically complete a circuit. I just flamed a post by FMF which admittedly I usually do, not because I have anything against her personally, just that each individual post I analyze objectively, and usually find objectionable. But in this case, it was about the Islamic theocratic elite trying to change local laws in Europe, which they are. Lots of non-jewish groups try to crush and control other nations through credit policy, or commodity capitalism, whether it's the US or Russia, or China.

The second problem is the all-selective target. The infraction against the host country is not being committed by the immigrant population as a whole, but by people within it, just like 99% of muslim in Europe are never going to support terrorism. But, the easiest way to get rid of the problem is to do what we did in WWII: Racial profiling. Collect all the Japanese Americans and round them up.

I was just reading about Eichmann and his plan for Jewish removal. He went three times to Israel to arrange the emigration, and the policy was set up and in action when suddenly there was a change. It appears to me that corporate and govt. greed got in the way, and they were diverted to be used as slave labor, so only 4,000 actually got to Israel, and then, later, another 10,000 or so from various people who helped smuggle jews out. The rest of those captured were killed.

The point in all of this being to look at all the factors involved. So back to my earlier comment that Islamophobia being caused by islamic immigration is tantamount to saying anti-semitism is caused by jews being evil: Yes, sure, small elements of those populations are attempting to manipulate the host countries and sometimes with devastating effects. But the overwhelming share of the population is not.

Since it's hard to separate out the manipulators and terrorists from the general population, what is the solution? I don't know, but I would say that on all sides, it's a serious issue.

At the moment, there are a lot of muslims in the middle east who want no Americans there, ever. This is the same logic. They don't know which Americans are going to be working for the CIA to destabilize their societies or try to institute regime change, or shift ownership of natural resources into western hands. Largely? I think most Americans, military and civilian, who are in Iraq, want to help. They feel a duty and responsibility to restore stability to that nation, not just because of Bush's war, but because of policies that date back to the Carter administration which have wrought havoc on Iraq.


So, there's a long post with no answers, and a lot of questions.

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Tuesday, January 13, 2009 5:01 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Historical Claims for land are one thing,

like Germany and the Sudetenland, etc

But with Palestine we are talking about individual wrongs,

Not, hey you are now Czech and not German etc but rather the knock on the door in the middle of the night and being thrown off the patch of land your family has farmed for generations to make room for a Jewish immigrant...

how would this affect you?

then with whatever you can carry you live in a ghetto, getting by on handouts... children and grandchildren witness and live this ...

Historical antisemitism aside, I think these people are right to hate Israelis. In their shoes, I would hate and fight too.

In their shoes what would you do ?

How would you end this ?

That last link I tossed in for Geezer as an example of terrorist and ethnic cleansing committed by Israel with no justice done...

another post I paralleled the situation with that of Kosavo pointing out the US has gone both ways in the same sort of situation.

Now you are right about Americans wearing out their welcome, not just in the Middle East, but also Central and South America, Europe, hell even here in Canada I'd say 2 out of three hold the US in contempt...

How do you change that while still pulling the same crap that put you in this position... and don't blame Bush, these policy's have gone on forever.


Lets party like its 1939

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