TALK STORY

Why was river in a box?

POSTED BY: THEMANTHEYCALLEDJAMES
UPDATED: Saturday, April 22, 2006 05:44
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 7716
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Friday, February 10, 2006 2:25 PM

THEMANTHEYCALLEDJAMES


I saw the movie WAY WAY before I saw any of the TV show, and after watching the pilot...I have one big question why did SIMON PUT RIVER and in a box naked. When Simon broke her out of the academy she seemed fuctional (for River) and carrying a huge box around makes him even more noticialbe then if he just gave her a new hair cut and made sure she didn't wander off.


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Friday, February 10, 2006 3:20 PM

STEGASAURUS


Given her mental instability, the easiest way to get her outta Dodge was to just keep her quiet. What better way than to knock her out and put her in his carry-on?

There has been much debate about why they showed her leaving the facility fully awake with Simon in the movie, versus her being knocked out the whole time. All I can say is Hollywood has to make it exciting, and you're bound to find minor mistakes between the movie and the show. Call it "creative license" then move on. You get less of a headache that way.

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Friday, February 10, 2006 3:48 PM

CYBERSNARK


*wanders in, reads thread title*

'Cause if she'd been in a jar, everyone could've seen her.

*wanders out*

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, February 10, 2006 4:20 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


I'm going to answer this in two steps:
1 Why did Simon put River in a box?
When it first happened they knew River had been broken out, but they didn't know by whom. They had her tagged as a fugitive, but didn’t yet know of Simon. (This is just my guess mind you.) In the big box River probably didn't give off life signs and the box was far less likely to be accused of being an escaped fugitive than the fugitive herself.

Remember Simon, who rarely if ever lies outright (but damn is he good at implication), said that they would sneak her to another planet. Since she was on a core planet that probably means customs.

2 Why was she naked?
My guess is that it has to do with the mechanics of being in cryo.

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Friday, February 10, 2006 4:26 PM

THESOAPBOXER


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
2 Why was she naked?
My guess is that it has to do with the mechanics of being in cryo.



Joss: "Uh, yeah... mechanics of cyro, right... That's why..."

_____________________________________________
Could you please just make it stranger? Just stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny? ~Joss Whedon

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Friday, February 10, 2006 4:38 PM

DC4BS


Q: Why did Simon put River in a box?

A: To get to the other side of the road...

...At spaceport customs. And so whatever ship they traveled on would have no record of transporting a male & female together. Just a male and some cargo.

A can might have been more appropriate than a box now that I think of it.... Then Mal would have, literaly, opened up a can of whoop-ass in the pilot movie.

Maybe not. Just too many "can" jokes come to mind now that I think of it...

------------------------------------------
dc4bs

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Friday, February 10, 2006 4:46 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:

2 Why was she naked?
My guess is that it has to do with the mechanics of being in cryo.



Originally posted by thesoapboxer:

Joss: "Uh, yeah... mechanics of cyro, right... That's why..."



(1) Joss is smart
(2) Joss likes his acresses nekked
(3) Joss is smart
(4) Rupert Murdock's Foxy Page 3 Girls

But seriously, we like our actresses nekked too, so why nitpick?

Rationalize it this way, without reading the Serenity pilot script too close:

(a) Simon rescues River, certainly by paying hackers to change his face in the Interplanetary ID System (tm), an easy thing to do judging by the millions of ID thefts in 2005. His hacker mercs then erase his mugshot from the security cam feed, so he never needs a disguise (oops, then how did the Operative see his face?). Delete that.

(b) Simon puts River to sleep to, uhhhh, shut her up?

(c) What was the question?

(d) Ouch! My brain cell just popped.

"'They're hurting us. Get me out!' The Government was playing with her brain."
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Friday, February 10, 2006 7:26 PM

GUTTERBALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Stegasaurus:
...and you're bound to find minor mistakes between the movie and the show. Call it "creative license" then move on.



I'm awfully fond of the term "revisionist history". It's just fun to say.

And it seems to suit. Heh.

________________________________________

Please remember that the 9:30 show is completely different from the 7:30 show. Don't forget to tip your waitress.

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Friday, February 10, 2006 8:26 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by themantheycalledJames:

I saw the movie WAY WAY before I saw any of the TV show, and after watching the pilot...I have one big question why did SIMON PUT RIVER and in a box naked. When Simon broke her out of the academy she seemed fuctional (for River) and carrying a huge box around makes him even more noticialbe then if he just gave her a new hair cut and made sure she didn't wander off.




The way you're talking, it's as if it changed from the way it happened in the movie to the way it happened in the show.

Point of fact, Simon did not break River out of the academy. He had people do it for him. Those people got her to Persephone where he picked her up. All this was stated explicitly in Serenity (ep not movie).

When Mal kicked off the lid to the box, Simon did make mention that she wasn't supposed to wake up for another week. And that the shock could... And we never got the end of that sentence. But, we did get that this was a temporary solution. Again, explicitly stated in Serenity (ep not movie).


Also, if we remember from Ariel, Simon did say that he'd have to be dead to enter the hospital to avoid getting id'd. Thus the inducing of a comatose state. I imagine that cryo would do approximatly the same thing.

Not to mention the fact that if anyone asked what was in the box, they could just say it's some nasty super virus bound for a research facility. Of course having the "official" papers to back that up. Now who would want to open the box after hearing that?


And there you go. A consistent history of what happened and why, only refering to things explicitly stated in the series. And only from two eps too

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Friday, February 10, 2006 9:41 PM

BITTERBIERCE


"Why was river in a box?"

To get to the other side?

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Saturday, February 11, 2006 5:16 AM

SERYN


must..resist...impulse...to...snark...at...fox...

Huh, no use.

Apart from the marvellous explainations given above (the reasons why in the pilot and the fact that they always changes things for movies)
they had to have River in a box at the start of the series so that Fox could give away the very good 'whats in the box?' two parter cliffhanger.

And ruin the surprise for everyone.

oh, a good bitch does set one up for the day!

-------------------------------------------
"She's a mite whimsical in the brainpan."
Xander: "Hi, for those of you who just tuned in, everyone here is a crazy person." *grin*

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Saturday, February 11, 2006 5:45 AM

ROCKETJOCK


Okay, first of all, Simon was, if not out-and-out lying, at least not offering the whole truth when he said others had broken River out. And why not? He didn't know Serenity's crew from Adam at that point. Besides, saying he'd broken her out up close and personal would have sounded like bragging, even if it was true.

The "others" did help sneak River out--by providing the cryo-cube, which was probably already listed as cargo on a manifest bound for Persephone. Simon followed separately, probably not even on the same ship, the better to bung up Alliance security. And the effects of Mal breaking her out of cryo prematurely may explain why River seems so much more disoriented in the early episodes compared to the movie's flashback scenes.

The novelization provides some detail on the people who helped Simon with the jailbreak (Academy break?), going so far as to establish one of them as the person who provided the false ID's on "Ariel". Not necessarily canon, I know, but not unreasonable either.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Saturday, February 11, 2006 6:44 AM

MURKYMERC


Quote:

Originally posted by thesoapboxer:
Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
2 Why was she naked?



Curse you all. Now I can't get the thought out of my head that at some point Simon had to undress his sister!! That is really creepy. I think I am going to need therapy.


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Saturday, February 11, 2006 7:26 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
*wanders in, reads thread title*

'Cause if she'd been in a jar, everyone could've seen her.

*wanders out*



I just have to say I found this ver' funny. Ver' funny indeed.

David

You wanna go, Little Man?
Only if it's someplace nice with candle light.

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Saturday, February 11, 2006 8:51 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


If you look at the Serenity (episode) shooting script the movie does contradict it. On the other hand if you just watch the episode the movie doesn't contradict it at all, so I don't see why people have to say, "Well it was changed for the movie."

Yes it was changed for the movie, but since the movie fits into it perfectly I don't see why people have to bring it up. No contradictions in what is on screen is a good thing, why not just be happy with that and forget that there was an off-screen plan that changed?

I mean it's like saying Kaylee not throwing out the part in Serenity (movie) is a contradiction because the original plan was to have get rid of it.

If what is on screen doesn't contradict there is no contradictions.

-

Quote:

Originally posted by Murkymerc:
Curse you all. Now I can't get the thought out of my head that at some point Simon had to undress his sister!! That is really creepy. I think I am going to need therapy.


Two things, the first is that she could have undressed herself and hopped in the box. The second I've decided not to mention but I figure I'll leave you to wonder what it is.

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Monday, February 13, 2006 3:45 PM

MURKYMERC




Quote:

Originally posted by Murkymerc:
Curse you all. Now I can't get the thought out of my head that at some point Simon had to undress his sister!! That is really creepy. I think I am going to need therapy.


Quote:


Two things, the first is that she could have undressed herself and hopped in the box. The second I've decided not to mention but I figure I'll leave you to wonder what it is.



I just had a really pathetic thought. Since I have this on dvd I have the option of pausing on that scene and checking out Summer's naked curves.
That does it, I might need to get some hobbies.

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Monday, February 13, 2006 4:52 PM

THEONETRUEBIX


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
If you look at the Serenity (episode) shooting script the movie does contradict it. On the other hand if you just watch the episode the movie doesn't contradict it at all, so I don't see why people have to say, "Well it was changed for the movie."



Maybe because JOss has stated outright that he contradicted the story told in the series, because he wanted a dramatic rescue scene for the film.

That said, he's said since then that he's adopted the fanwank you've already seen here about Simon lying in the series.

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 9:58 AM

HERA


Quote:

Originally posted by thesoapboxer:
Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
2 Why was she naked?
My guess is that it has to do with the mechanics of being in cryo.



Joss: "Uh, yeah... mechanics of cyro, right... That's why..."



As much as I would like to think that Joss is getting us all off on his actor/actress nudity, I wish to point out this: IF you empathise with River -- what she has gone through, what she is going through -- and the fact that in the Serenity ep, not only does she wake up disoriented, in an unknown place with no one she knows in sight, she wakes up start-raving naked. Literally.

Sound like a bad dream? Ever dream you get to work/school/the f*cking dog park with no clothes on? Uncomfortable, ain't it? Imagine the same situation with a little life-threatening thrown in. 'Nuff said.

Joss knows how to scare us with our own (uncomfortable) humanity. We're just lucky his TV/movie naked people are prettier than most folks.

So, from a screenwriter's point of view, if you wished to elicit sympathy/empathy for River; wanted to exemplify how vulnerable and easily victimized she could be, having her be sans clothes isn't prurient, it's good story telling.

"Wanna?" – Mal to Kaylee, Out of Gas

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 1:28 PM

DC4BS


Quote:

Originally posted by Hera:
...having her be sans clothes isn't prurient, it's good story telling.



And I, for one, really, really appreciate good story telling!

------------------------------------------
dc4bs

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 2:40 PM

NIKNAK


Quote:

Originally posted by Hera:

So, from a screenwriter's point of view, if you wished to elicit sympathy/empathy for River; wanted to exemplify how vulnerable and easily victimized she could be, having her be sans clothes isn't prurient, it's good story telling.



Exactly. I fancy Summer Glau as much as the next man but when River jumped out of the box I was thinking "ahhh, someone get the poor girl some clothes," and not "oooh sexy - show us more!". Credit to the acting, directing and script for making me think that.

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 4:00 PM

MURKYMERC


Quote:

Originally posted by niknak:


Exactly. I fancy Summer Glau as much as the next man but when River jumped out of the box I was thinking "ahhh, someone get the poor girl some clothes," and not "oooh sexy - show us more!". Credit to the acting, directing and script for making me think that.



You are a better man than me. When I saw that scene I was thinking, "Get me a couple glasses of wine, some soft music, and turn the lights down"

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 4:26 PM

SIMONWHO


After seeing how shy Summer is in real life and hearing how nervous she was about being in Firefly, rewatching the scene makes me feel bad for her as an actress, even though she's entirely convincing.

I also have to keep telling myself that she's not a 17 year old girl and is in fact older than Jewel Staite.

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 4:29 PM

URSULA


Because she wouldn't fit in the mailing tube.

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 4:37 PM

URSULA


Quote:

Originally posted by Hera:
in the Serenity ep, not only does she wake up disoriented, in an unknown place with no one she knows in sight, she wakes up start-raving naked. Literally.




This also works well as a metaphorical "rebirth" of River in her new world of living on the Rim--if ya wanna get all symbolically 'n' such.

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 5:19 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by theonetruebix:
Maybe because JOss has stated outright that he contradicted the story told in the series, because he wanted a dramatic rescue scene for the film.


Would you be kind enough to point to a source? I remember him saying that he changed the story, but I also remember him saying that he worked hard not to contradict it.

Obviously the two terms are completely different in all possible ways.

Quote:

That said, he's said since then that he's adopted the fanwank you've already seen here about Simon lying in the series.

There is no need for Simon to lie, if he has adopted that stance I don't see why because it would imply layers of complexity far beyond what we have seen in the movie and the series.

Too much complexity in my opinion.

I mean I see why you would want to say he lied, it implies he is inept which works towards furthering the character, but it also means that something he said must not have been true.

So
Either he was not contacted by men
Or they were not underground
Or they were not a movement
Or they didn't say she was in danger
Or they didn't say the government was playing with her brain
Or they didn't ask for funding
Or they didn't say they could get her out
Or they didn't mention cryo
Or they didn't say they’d bring her to Persephone

Well he was in contact with them so they must have contacted him even it was a reply instead of initation
We know that they were underground
We know that he paid them
We know that they got her out as part of an orchestrated plan (so they must have said they could at some point)
We also know that they told him about the conditioning.

That means the only things he could be lying about are:
The men being a movement
Them saying she was in danger
Them being involved in the cyro bit
And
Them bringing her to Persephone

If they were not a movement it hardly matters much.
If they didn't say she was in danger it still doesn’t make much of a difference.

That means that the only reason to say Simon was lying is if the people who got River out were not involved in the cryo bit and/or getting River to Persephone.

This means that there was an entire as yet unrevealed and indeed unhinted at leg of the journey. Simon was involved with some other group of people who either got him the cryo equipment or passage to Persephone, or both.

Why make that assumption? Isn't it so much easier to assume everything he said was true?

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 5:40 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by niknak:

Quote:

Originally posted by Hera:

So, from a screenwriter's point of view, if you wished to elicit sympathy/empathy for River; wanted to exemplify how vulnerable and easily victimized she could be, having her be sans clothes isn't prurient, it's good story telling.



Exactly. I fancy Summer Glau as much as the next man but when River jumped out of the box I was thinking "ahhh, someone get the poor girl some clothes," and not "oooh sexy - show us more!". Credit to the acting, directing and script for making me think that.



Finally, a bit of decency in this thread. How refreshing! Thank you!




--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 6:02 PM

THEONETRUEBIX


The citation for Joss and the fanwank

http://www.riverismadeofchocolate.com/spoilers/2005/Sep/17/joss_fan_wa
nk


Which just points to

http://www.serenitymovie.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=766

Where he says

"It is the one place where I broke cannon, because I started to write the movie with people we have never met, breaking the material out, and I thought "My God, this is uninvolving" and realised I had to switch it for the movie to make it Simon himself who broke her out. So. My fan wank goes out as follows, he was lying about when he said other people broke her out, and I haven't gotten why yet. I'm working on it."

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 7:28 PM

NOSADSEVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
I mean I see why you would want to say he lied, it implies he is inept which works towards furthering the character, but it also means that something he said must not have been true.

So
Either he was not contacted by men
Or they were not underground
Or they were not a movement
Or they didn't say she was in danger
Or they didn't say the government was playing with her brain
Or they didn't ask for funding
Or they didn't say they could get her out
Or they didn't mention cryo
Or they didn't say they’d bring her to Persephone

Well he was in contact with them so they must have contacted him even it was a reply instead of initation
We know that they were underground
We know that he paid them
We know that they got her out as part of an orchestrated plan (so they must have said they could at some point)
We also know that they told him about the conditioning.

That means the only things he could be lying about are:
The men being a movement
Them saying she was in danger
Them being involved in the cyro bit
And
Them bringing her to Persephone

If they were not a movement it hardly matters much.
If they didn't say she was in danger it still doesn’t make much of a difference.

That means that the only reason to say Simon was lying is if the people who got River out were not involved in the cryo bit and/or getting River to Persephone.

This means that there was an entire as yet unrevealed and indeed unhinted at leg of the journey. Simon was involved with some other group of people who either got him the cryo equipment or passage to Persephone, or both.

Why make that assumption? Isn't it so much easier to assume everything he said was true?


That was a lovely straw man you set up and tore down.

Simon's was a lie of omission. Everything that he said was true. The 'lie' would have been the implication that he was not directly involved by his specifically mentioning all of these other relevant details, while leaving out some very important and very relevant self-incriminating ones.

I think the fanwank is solid. I just personally haven't decided whether I prefer to accept the fanwank, or to accept the change as a break in continuity. I like things to match up neatly, which the fanwank allows, but accepting Simon's lie of omission has implications for his characer throughout the series that (as Joss's comments bring forth) were not intended, and I'm not certain that I want to go there.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 11:58 AM

MSG


Perhaps Simon is a B.F. Skinner fan:)

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Thursday, February 16, 2006 12:06 PM

AERYNSUN21


well two by two hands of blue was looking for a girl not a box, and I've never credited the alliance with an overabundance of brains....

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Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:47 AM

CLJOHNSTON108


Geez, y'all have skipped right on past the obvious fact that, if the cryo box had been a typical sarcophagus, we all would've known right away that there was a human body inside.

By putting River in fetal position, Joss could make the container a square shape that wouldn't tip us off, so he could take his time with the reveal.

Well, except for the fact that River's mist-shrouded body curled up in the open box is shown in the opening credits...

---------------

"Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose... Tell me you're not a fan."

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Thursday, February 23, 2006 6:01 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:


1 Why did Simon put River in a box?

....

2 Why was she naked?

My guess is that it has to do with the mechanics of being in cryo.




I'm a bit surprised nobody mentioned this, bit the whole cryo thing is, of course, ostentatiously reminiscent of birth. The cryo chamber is the womb, as it were, with River in it, naked, curled up in a foetal position; and gasping for air as she climbs out, as if it were her first breath.

River, a character to Love.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 7:31 PM

BROWNCOATSANDINISTA


Also, as far as I know, if you are put in Cryo, and you're wearing clothes, they would fuse to your skin, and that would be extremely uncomfortable when you wake up, etc. etc. This would make it necessary for you to be in the nude when you go in there. And putting her in a box revealed to the real-life-less teenaged ((0r older)) guys something to lust after. Not to say that her admirers are all guys, just the bulk of us.

If anyone gets nosy...Shoot em.
Shoot em sir?
Politely.

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 4:16 AM

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN


actually if you check just about any sci-fi you will see that covered skin reacts badley to the cryo gasses usually just some blistering and rashes, but would you want to have a blister-covered body?

it's my insanity that keeps me sane hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

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Saturday, April 22, 2006 5:44 AM

KAYLEESTHEGREATEST


she was in a box because simon and her escaped in a one person shuttle so simon put her in the cooling box


Someday the verse will spit in your soup but at least they gave you soup.
one day
one plan
one mission
one army of browncoats
june 23rd serenity day

-Our mission as browncoats is to make us known.

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