Why Halloween is depressing

POSTED BY: MAL4PREZ
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 9, 2025 06:32
VIEWED: 15533
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MAL4PREZ

Monday, October 28, 2013 9:14 AM

I enjoy dressing up, as do many of my students and co-workers. There's a few other teachers with long histories of excellent costumes, from Indiana Jones to Darth Vader to Jack Sparrow. My first year of teaching I was Princess Leia of Star Wars with the funny side buns and white dress. My second year I did Cher of the 60s: long black hair, overdone make-up, fake lashes, and a goofy 60s jumpsuit.

Since then... not so much.

I cannot find an interesting female sci-fi/whatever character to dress up as that isn't totally inappropriate for a woman who doesn't need to present herself as a sexpot. WTH? I think of all my favorite movies... nope. It's all skintight and revealing. Not what I need to be wearing in front of teenagers.

A few days ago I thought - hey, what about something from a kids story, like little red riding hood? Get a red cape and a basket to carry, I've got a flowery girlish dress... until I just did a google search for fairy tale female characters and it was all anime sexpots.

What the f is wrong with this world? Can women exist in fiction these days without being all sexed up? Even Joss has fallen - look at the ridiculous posters for the Avengers, with Scarlet Johansson presented as all T&A.

/rant

Anyone got ideas?

WISHIMAY

Monday, October 28, 2013 10:16 AM

That's one of the reasons I LOVE Avatar TLA and Legend of Korra.

Lynn Bei Fong is probably one of the strongest female characters ever made. Not a single thing about here is sexied up, from the don't touch me uniform to the scars on her face. And who DOESN'T wanna metal bend, really??
Toph is just as much fun and also Avatar Kyoshi. Really just awesome role models for kids and adults in both shows. I've now officially seen Avatar more times than I've seen Serenity.
Astrid is a great character that's not too sexified from Defenders of Berk. Plus all that great armor...and weaponry!

Pretty damn sure I was a warrior queen in another life. Could be why I'm paying in this one though

If you wanna go for sorta obscure Daria would be another great female character.

Captain Janeway?

Dax from DS9?

Carter from Stargate?

Reba from Tremors?

Bring a labeled "Empathy Gun" and be Trillion from Hitchhikers Guide?

Marge from The Simpsons?

BYTEMITE

Monday, October 28, 2013 10:42 AM

...Kaylee? In her overalls. Tomboy wrench girl is a fetish but not generally sex-pot fodder.

Zoe, but it would only work with a fake gun and schools frown on that I hear, kinda inappropriate too maybe considering.

I'd say Inara since I'm pretty sure you like her but I'm pretty sure she can be described as a "sexpot." River too, even though she's a scary assassin in a sundress, if it wasn't for the movie you would've been okay though.

oh and ask Frem, he probably knows a BUNCH of cosplayable girls who aren't wearing tinfoil and dental floss! I don't really watch new stuff often enough to have lots of suggestions.

OONJERAH

Monday, October 28, 2013 11:38 AM

Sue Storm Richards. Miss Piggy too sexy? Olive Oil is pretty asexual.

If you go waay retro, heroines were portrayed more Good than Sexy.
Alice in Wonderland, Cinderella, Snow White, etc. Orphan Annie.
Lucy (Peanuts Lucy or I Love Lucy). The Flying Nun.

No one'd know who you were in retro, tho.

==========================:>

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, October 28, 2013 12:30 PM

Why Halloween is depressing

Because the fact that we now celebrate it is one of many indicators of how we are being culturally swamped by the US.

Next thing, we'll be doing Thanksgiving

OONJERAH

Monday, October 28, 2013 1:24 PM

You know perfectly well that Hallowe'en is from
the Celtic All Hallows Eve & so from Britain.
And Jesus celebrated it with His desciples. :)

The Fantasy and Folklore of All Hallows
http://www.loc.gov/folklife/halloween.html

Thanksgiving, OtoH, is a Massachusetts-Puritan,
Mayflower-Pilgrims thing. I should boycott it
as I am, for last several years, concerned that
Virginia colony (1584) & New York (1612) were
here before Mass-Mayflower (1620).

In elementary school, I believe they told us that
the Mayflower was the 1st ship to bring colonists
from England to the New World. So even back then,
the schools had screwed our history lessons.

But Hallowe'en is pretty cool as long you have fun!

P.S. NM St. Augustine's (1565)!

======================
A man's gotta know his Holidays, Doc.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, October 28, 2013 2:01 PM

It was never celebrated here, as far as I can remember, until about 10 years ago, when kids started trick or treating.

All Hallowed's Eve has never been particularly acknowledged, although as Catholic we had to go to church the next day as it was/is All Saints Day.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, October 28, 2013 5:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
I cannot find an interesting female sci-fi/whatever character to dress up as that isn't totally inappropriate for a woman who doesn't need to present herself as a sexpot. WTH? I think of all my favorite movies... nope. It's all skintight and revealing. Not what I need to be wearing in front of teenagers.

Nausicaa of the valley of the wind.
Bonus points for her being my A-1 exemplar of humane behavior.
You could also try Yuna from Final Fantasy X.

Neither costume looks too hard to pull off, and they also represent strength and decency from a generally nonviolent aspect.

-F

MAL4PREZ

Monday, October 28, 2013 7:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Nausicaa of the valley of the wind.
Bonus points for her being my A-1 exemplar of humane behavior.

I saw that movie when I was in 6th grade and it had a huge effect on me. Really, it gave me dreams that I still remember. I never could recall what the movie was until just last year, when I finally hunted down the title and found it online.

I will note that the first section of the movie includes a whole lot of upskirt shots of this leggy little girl. Totally creeps me out. Am I just too sensitive?

Quote:

You could also try Yuna from Final Fantasy X.

Neither costume looks too hard to pull off, and they also represent strength and decency from a generally nonviolent aspect.

Haven't seen this. Cool thing is, I have students who are into Anime and would likely recognize these.

WishImay - great ideas! Wish I had more time to be creative. Marge from the Simpsons would be awesome.

Ripley from Aliens would especially rock, since I look a lot like Sigourney Weaver. Seriously, there are scenes from Working Girl where I swear I'm watching myself on screen. But I don't know how I'd be recognizably Ripley. Just a jumpsuit with "Ripley" on it.

I may just go look for a Marge wig and necklace. I have the perfect dress already...

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

AURAPTOR

Monday, October 28, 2013 7:45 PM

Halloween has become nothing but a great excuse for women to dress up and go out as a " naughty " nurse, or a 'sexy' lady pirate or some such. Which I'm fine with, but it does show a real lack of imagination.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

BYTEMITE

Monday, October 28, 2013 8:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
It was never celebrated here, as far as I can remember, until about 10 years ago, when kids started trick or treating.

All Hallowed's Eve has never been particularly acknowledged, although as Catholic we had to go to church the next day as it was/is All Saints Day.

Oh come on. American culture is awful and the fact that it's so pervasive is disturbing, but trick or treating is legitimately fun. Sure, it's a bit of a pain for the adults, but people I've talked to in England said that they HATED it right up until they saw how happy it made their kids.

BYTEMITE

Monday, October 28, 2013 8:26 PM

Quote:
I will note that the first section of the movie includes a whole lot of upskirt shots of this leggy little girl. Totally creeps me out. Am I just too sensitive?

Seconded "Japan is different" maybe with a "JAPAN!!!" *shake fist* or "Japan is really fucking weird."

There's a vending machine somewhere in Japan that sells panties. You don't even want to know.

GEEZER

Monday, October 28, 2013 8:36 PM

On the teacher theme, how about Professor McGonagall or Madame Hooch from Harry Potter?

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

MAL4PREZ

Monday, October 28, 2013 9:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
I will note that the first section of the movie includes a whole lot of upskirt shots of this leggy little girl. Totally creeps me out. Am I just too sensitive?

Seconded "Japan is different" maybe with a "JAPAN!!!" *shake fist* or "Japan is really fucking weird."

There's a vending machine somewhere in Japan that sells panties. You don't even want to know.

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about:

Why oh why? Makes the day for dirty old men, I guess. *shakes head*

Thankfully, the movie seems to start taking her seriously a half hour or so in and this kind of thing stops.

McGonagall is awesome. Many ideas here for next year! I'm going for Marge though. Gonna stop by the costume store on the way home for a wig. I like wigs.

OK, I just had an idea: Pat Benatar, like from the Love is a Battlefield video. I love her. But none of my students would have any idea LOL!

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

NIKI2

Monday, October 28, 2013 10:29 PM

There's always a witch, you know. "Crassic", as Rap would say.

I find Halloween depressing for several reasons. First, because the crap for it starts coming out (like everything else) way too soon, and it's all commercial bullshit. Second, because we don't have kids and don't want to spend money on crap sugar, so we turn off the lights, close the curtains and watch TV quietly until they pass.

Like most things, Halloween is for families with kids, and retailers, period. I used to dress up at work, and we used to put up a display in our front yard and I'd dress as a witch, sit totally still out front and scare kids (and sometimes their parents!) when I moved, then give them their "bakshish". Lost interest years ago.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, October 29, 2013 12:14 AM

I never even noted it Mal4, she's wearing a tunic over pants so that never registered with me as what they call fanservice, usually the visual focus is elsewhere, sooo...

The reason both Nausicaa and Yuna rate so high with me is that they never give in to hate, they have their tempermental moments, being only human, but generally hold to a standard of compassion and tolerance which is laudable even in adversity - and they both have huge reserves of courage that isn't necessarily based in violence, Nausicaas headfirst rush on the gunpod is prolly hands-down THE gutsiest thing I've seen in anime, and she did so to rescue a critter generally hostile to her people simply because it was suffering.
Yuna chose to defy prettymuch EVERYONE to break a stupid cycle and prevent a needless sacrifice for a mere year of peace, then went for all the marbles and tried to make that peace as permanent as such a thing ever is.

Oh, and this'll interest you, no doubt - they're workin on actually BUILDING a functional Mowe-02J jetglider, still haven't got all the kinks out though.
I seriously want one of these.

-Frem

STORYMARK

Tuesday, October 29, 2013 12:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about:

Pants creep you out...?

Note the difference in *color* between the head and the area you seem upset by...

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, October 29, 2013 1:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about:

Pants creep you out...?

Note the difference in *color* between the head and the area you seem upset by...

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

If that's the case, then I take my creeped-ness. About this movie anyway. :)

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

STORYMARK

Tuesday, October 29, 2013 2:01 AM

Granted, there is some freaky shit out there when it comes to anime....

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, October 29, 2013 4:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Granted, there is some freaky shit out there when it comes to anime....

Which doesn't even necessarily have to be perverse, you'd have to go pretty far out there to beat FLCL or Paprika for sheer WTF?! factor.

-F

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, October 29, 2013 4:33 AM

Here's a suggestion...

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

JONGSSTRAW

Tuesday, October 29, 2013 4:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Here's a suggestion...

It's because of her we have Obama as president. "Where No Man Has Gone Before" ... you got that right Jack!

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, October 29, 2013 4:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Granted, there is some freaky shit out there when it comes to anime....

*Repeats the "You don't want to know" line*

When your high school years were well spent competing in "find the most disturbing anime/manga images and see if you can get through the whole thread" contests with your friends, you see things that cannot be unseen.

The worst ones I've encountered can be summed up as "meathooks do not go there," "mammary eggsac," and "yep, that sure is a scat fetish image."

When people invoke Rule 34, they aren't kidding.

Source: the things I do for science, knowledge, and/or boredom.

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
It's because of her we have Obama as president. "Where No Man Has Gone Before" ... you got that right Jack!

Dammit, I just KNEW someone would go there, and ruin a perfectly fine Halloween costume suggestion.

Tanks for nuttin' !

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

JONGSSTRAW

Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
It's because of her we have Obama as president. "Where No Man Has Gone Before" ... you got that right Jack!

Dammit, I just KNEW someone would go there, and ruin a perfectly fine Halloween costume suggestion.

Tanks for nuttin' !

You could always go as Alan Keyes. But if you're gonna be asking for Pennies For Unicef, you might be better off as Rod Blagojevich...

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Here's a suggestion...

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

Yeah, that'd go over well on a high school teacher... I respected her as an actor that she was able to project any kind of *character* past that outfit. Holy bosom!

Here's the outlandishly costumed character I'd love to be... but no real body can pull it off, as the movie proved:

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:48 AM

Yeah, I never really got 'anime'. Seems pretentious as hell, imo. Oh well, to each their own.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, October 31, 2013 12:06 PM

Quote:
I detest Halloween. I never much liked it as a kid when there was nothing more than a few wonkily carved pumpkins around the streets by way of token celebration. But over the years my vague ambivalence has ballooned to full-blown hatred.

I think it was living in Hong Kong that tipped me over the edge. The vibrant local Honkongese and expat community love a cultural/religious celebration. Whatever is going around, be it Christmas, Diwali, Lantern Festival or Buddha's birthday, they will get into it. But Halloween is something else. It's bigger than Christmas, the streets of Lan Kwai Fong (party central on Hong Kong Island) are festooned with so many huge hairy spiders and tacky webs it's almost impossible to walk the steep, cobblestoned streets. And the normally all-pervasive aromas of barbecued duck and goose are obliterated by the fake smoke machines.

Driving to school last week the five-year-old said: "I can't decide whether I like Christmas or Halloween better." I nearly crashed the car in horror.

Every towering apartment block hosts a sort of vertical street party. I took my then one and three-year-olds to a party in our block. I dressed the one-year-old in a faux-felt pumpkin costume complete with stalk hat and she spent the night crying at the indignity of it. Never again, I thought, and for the next three years we left town on October 31.

But now, with kids aged five, seven and nine, I cannot escape it. We have come home to Sydney and Halloween is everywhere. There are gross ghouls hanging from every second house around us and the supermarkets are filled with weirdly perfect pumpkins. Driving to school last week the five-year-old said: "I can't decide whether I like Christmas or Halloween better." I nearly crashed the car in horror.
Advertisement

How has this happened? Why do we celebrate this American custom? Halloween has no cultural significance here. No one understands or cares why we do it, it is just mindless dressing-up in spooky costumes because the US does. And then there are the lollies. I am fine with them having sweet treats, I'm fine with the bags of tooth-rotting goodies that come home from a party. But I'm not fine with the bucketloads of "candy" that will come home tonight. It's just too much.

The wonderful lady who picks our kids up from school will take our girls tonight. They are beside themselves with glee. She took them last year as well. I drove home in the evening and saw them heading up our street towards home. Their smiles were brighter than the street lights as they sailed along waving to the many neighbours spilling out into the street. "See," said Jeanne. "It is a wonderful event that connects people and brings them together." Yes I saw. I just wish it didn't take Halloween to do this.

http://www.goodfood.com.au/good-food/food-news/the-horror-how-hallowee
n-hijacked-my-home-20131031-2wjab.html?rand=1383186403300

Also

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/31/halloween-in-aust
ralia-what-a-terrible-and-spooky-sight

OONJERAH

Thursday, October 31, 2013 1:02 PM

^"How has this happened? Why do we celebrate this American custom?
Halloween has no cultural significance here."

New Years, Easter, Christmas. Are those American customs too?

Cool! We rule the world. All your kids wanna be just like US.

======================
A man's gotta know his limitations. ~Dirty Harry

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, October 31, 2013 2:42 PM

That's pretty much it.

I guess its hard to understand what its like to feel swamped by another more dominant culture, and feel bit by bit that you're being subsumed.

I have a lot of sympathy for the French who rail against it.

OONJERAH

Thursday, October 31, 2013 2:56 PM

If, by chance, we should last another 100 years,
we'll probably be absorbed by the countries we occupy.

===================
A country's gotta recognize its boundaries. Or lose them.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, October 31, 2013 5:42 PM

It's not the same. No, not the same at all. It's the difference between celebrating chinese new year because you have lots of chinese in the neighborhood, and celebrating it because china is the dominates every aspect of your life.

Dont know if I can explain it to you, jerah. Perhaps, if you could imagine that Australia Day became more widely celebrated in the US than July 4th. You weren't sure what it was all about, but you had the bbq and the sausages and lamingtons and draped yourself in Aussie flags. Every tv show you watched depicted people celebrating it, newspapers talked about it, but nobody mentioned July 4 anymore.

OONJERAH

Thursday, October 31, 2013 6:48 PM

I am really sorry, Magons.
I had no idea -- none.

Because, you see, coming the other way, all the entertainment, books,
movies, songs, that we get from you are wonderfully Aussie & not US at all.

Lately, I've had occassion to say to friends, "Don't you remember
'The Ugly American?'" "No," they reply, "What is that?"

==============
A man needs a bit of humility.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
It's not the same. No, not the same at all. It's the difference between celebrating chinese new year because you have lots of chinese in the neighborhood, and celebrating it because china is the dominates every aspect of your life.

Dont know if I can explain it to you, jerah. Perhaps, if you could imagine that Australia Day became more widely celebrated in the US than July 4th. You weren't sure what it was all about, but you had the bbq and the sausages and lamingtons and draped yourself in Aussie flags. Every tv show you watched depicted people celebrating it, newspapers talked about it, but nobody mentioned July 4 anymore.

We actually have this in America. It's called Cinco de Mayo, and it's awesome.

Which tends to be the reason celebrations and traditions cross cultural and national boundaries.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if soon Americans start celebrating Canadian Thanksgiving, and vice-versa for Canadia. :P

It's like me saying I'm having a party, and you saying you hate my party because it's all you've heard about all month. You can basically either join in the fun, or don't play. Like Christmas for atheists. Which starts in July now.

Normally I'm the first in line when it comes to resenting America. But Halloween? Really? Of all the problems that America causes in the rest of the world, of the many times we've exported American culture at GUN POINT, you hate Halloween.

SECOND

Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Jersey whatever-the-hell-it's-called on euro TV??? Christ almighty! I feel like apologizing to every foreigner and at the same time I feel like screaming, "that's not the US that I live in...

Duck Dynasty, Hardcore Pawn, and Lizard Lick Towing ought to be internationally syndicated. The World needs to know what Americans hold dear: quiet hedonism, consumerism, and mind-numbing mass entertainment. The increase in leisure has not resulted, as the ancient sages supposed, in an increase in wisdom and the contemplation of the good, the true, and the beautiful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_Dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_Pawn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizard_Lick_Towing

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

STORYMARK

Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:33 PM

I dig Halloween. An excuse to indulge in some sugar - and lots of fun costumes. It really doesn't hold any significance for me beyond that - but it's fun and I like it.

Im dressed as Mal right now, as a matter of fact...

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

BYTEMITE

Friday, November 1, 2013 2:08 AM

Quote:
The increase in leisure has not resulted, as the ancient sages supposed, in an increase in wisdom and the contemplation of the good, the true, and the beautiful.

Eh. While I do think there are beneficial aspects to physical labour, I don't think we should toss out our tractors and technological developments just yet. Rather, I think that the problems you refer to are more of a corrupt Empire bread and circuses type thing like Ancient Rome. Superficial spectacle distracts and sells easier than depth.

BYTEMITE

Friday, November 1, 2013 2:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
I dig Halloween. An excuse to indulge in some sugar - and lots of fun costumes. It really doesn't hold any significance for me beyond that - but it's fun and I like it.

Im dressed as Mal right now, as a matter of fact...

WE DEMAND PICS.

Oh wait, actually no, that might endanger your personal security. WE DEMAND STICK FIGURE DRAWINGS OF THIS EVENT.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Friday, November 1, 2013 2:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

We actually have this in America. It's called Cinco de Mayo, and it's awesome.

Which tends to be the reason celebrations and traditions cross cultural and national boundaries.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if soon Americans start celebrating Canadian Thanksgiving, and vice-versa for Canadia. :P

It's like me saying I'm having a party, and you saying you hate my party because it's all you've heard about all month. You can basically either join in the fun, or don't play. Like Christmas for atheists. Which starts in July now.

Normally I'm the first in line when it comes to resenting America. But Halloween? Really? Of all the problems that America causes in the rest of the world, of the many times we've exported American culture at GUN POINT, you hate Halloween.

Yeah, you don't get it. I see that clearly.

Again, not the same as celebrating other cultures festivals, as I said earlier, but I see you lack the understanding to see the difference.

I'd have no problems celebrating Thanksgiving with some Americna friends who lived around the corner. I have a problem when American cultural norms being adopted because people see them on TV. I don't hate Halloween, I resent it. Just like I resent the 24 hours MacDonalds opening down the road, and the fact that most youngsters now use American spelling because computer spell check defaults to American spelling and a thousand other things that demonstrate American cultural dominance over the world.

And yes, not as bad as having tanks roll down the street, but is that the yard stick for complaints these days. "You're not being shot at, so put up and shut up"

Anyway, enjoy your fun. Just wanted to chip in my ten cents about what I find depressing about Halloween.

BYTEMITE

Friday, November 1, 2013 2:36 AM

So celebrating Thanksgiving because some Americans you know expect you to is okay, but celebrating Halloween because some of your countrymen saw it on television and thought it looked cool is just uncalled for.

It is apparent that you basically don't like Halloween not because it's American but because it's popular, and populism is the realm of the vulgar audience. Yet ultimately you are objecting to giving candy to children and calling it cultural victimisation.

Meanwhile, I'm going to gobble down a shit-ton of sugar and somehow carry it on my 5'5" 125 pound frame. Then I'm going to watch some friggin' GHOSTBUSTERS, and maybe scare the piss out of some kids with a remote controlled helicopter.

It's going to be pretty good.

STORYMARK

Friday, November 1, 2013 2:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
I dig Halloween. An excuse to indulge in some sugar - and lots of fun costumes. It really doesn't hold any significance for me beyond that - but it's fun and I like it.

Im dressed as Mal right now, as a matter of fact...

WE DEMAND PICS.

Oh wait, actually no, that might endanger your personal security. WE DEMAND STICK FIGURE DRAWINGS OF THIS EVENT.

Eh, Ive posted my pic before, I don't mind. Its not a great costume anyway - I just realized that I had enough elements to pull off a "close enough" version, and... here I am.

I need to clean my mirror....

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

OONJERAH

Friday, November 1, 2013 2:59 AM

Hey! You're young enuf to Be Mal when the series picks up again!
Get an agent, quick!

=================:>
A man's gotta know his Imitations.

STORYMARK

Friday, November 1, 2013 3:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Hey! You're young enuf to Be Mal when the series picks up again!
Get an agent, quick!

=================:>
A man's gotta know his Imitations.

Im actually only a couple years younger than our Cap'n.

What can I say, I age well.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, November 1, 2013 3:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
I enjoy dressing up, as do many of my students and co-workers. There's a few other teachers with long histories of excellent costumes, from Indiana Jones to Darth Vader to Jack Sparrow. My first year of teaching I was Princess Leia of Star Wars with the funny side buns and white dress. My second year I did Cher of the 60s: long black hair, overdone make-up, fake lashes, and a goofy 60s jumpsuit.

Since then... not so much.

I cannot find an interesting female sci-fi/whatever character to dress up as that isn't totally inappropriate for a woman who doesn't need to present herself as a sexpot. WTH? I think of all my favorite movies... nope. It's all skintight and revealing. Not what I need to be wearing in front of teenagers.

A few days ago I thought - hey, what about something from a kids story, like little red riding hood? Get a red cape and a basket to carry, I've got a flowery girlish dress... until I just did a google search for fairy tale female characters and it was all anime sexpots.

What the f is wrong with this world? Can women exist in fiction these days without being all sexed up? Even Joss has fallen - look at the ridiculous posters for the Avengers, with Scarlet Johansson presented as all T&A.

/rant

Anyone got ideas?

Good luck with that M....

Where I work, if it isn't a joke costume it's a slut costume. That remains the same at any age. I'm glad I don't have a daughter of Halloween age today because we'd be battling right now.

Go to ANY big box store and look at the pictures of the girls on the costumes. Enough makeup to make a clown jealous...

Shit's just getting really weird now.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Friday, November 1, 2013 8:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
So celebrating Thanksgiving because some Americans you know expect you to is okay, but celebrating Halloween because some of your countrymen saw it on television and thought it looked cool is just uncalled for.

It is apparent that you basically don't like Halloween not because it's American but because it's popular, and populism is the realm of the vulgar audience. Yet ultimately you are objecting to giving candy to children and calling it cultural victimisation.

Meanwhile, I'm going to gobble down a shit-ton of sugar and somehow carry it on my 5'5" 125 pound frame. Then I'm going to watch some friggin' GHOSTBUSTERS, and maybe scare the piss out of some kids with a remote controlled helicopter.

It's going to be pretty good.

Yeah, you don't get it.

Revel in your cultural imperialism by all means. Empathy seems to be pretty difficult for you to manage.

BYTEMITE

Friday, November 1, 2013 9:04 AM

Quote:

Yeah, you don't get it.

Revel in your cultural imperialism by all means. Empathy seems to be pretty difficult for you to manage.

You just accused me for a second time of cultural imperialism - a large part of why I have zero empathy right now and in itself mindboggling considering my usual opinion of America - that YOUR OWN PEOPLE HAVE CHOSEN.

I'm not going to be sympathetic or feel guilty that you're upset that people around you are choosing to have FUN. I'm just not. That is a ridiculous expectation, and I do not apologize.

OONJERAH

Friday, November 1, 2013 9:29 AM

Lemme guess ...

People having fun is not the objection.
People adopting US customs in lieu of their own is felt as a loss.
Very upsetting when one loves-respects her own culture.
My refusal to hear-understand the hurt was like an insult.

======================
Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. ~Paul Simon

WISHIMAY

Friday, November 1, 2013 10:09 AM

I get what you're trying to say Magons...

There's a guy in chat occaisionally who is from Bulgaria. His favorite TV show is "The Big Bang Theory"

I had no idea they got that in Bulgaria, but they do.

The internet really really has made the world a much smaller place. If you want entertainment THAT'S WHERE EVERYONE GOES! That and a generation or twelve of subtle cultural representations in movies and music...Unfortunately, it was bound to happen, but I personally did not expect it this soon, and I firmly believe most Americans have NO CLUE how we are affecting the rest of the world.
I'm sure a lot of Christians would deny that they want the rest of the world doing their holidays, but I know that a lot would secretly revel in the "superiority" of it all. It makes me kind of sick that Americans ( and lets face it- companies EVERYWHERE LOOOOVE how commercialized we are) are soo inadvertently messing with others cultures, but people get bored with their own stuffs and I think that's natural. It's not like we're putting a gun to anyone's head and making them do it anyways... Who knows- in 50 years maybe South African culture will take the world by storm? Polynesian? If we haven' wrecked it completely by then, I mean...

Halloween always was a little too much "glamorizing the dark side" for me, but hubbs loves it. I tell him he's welcome to decorate, but don't expect me to do any of that. We're both fine with.... whatever.

BYTEMITE

Friday, November 1, 2013 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Lemme guess ...

People having fun is not the objection.
People adopting US customs in lieu of their own is felt as a loss.
Very upsetting when one loves-respects her own culture.

Okay then. If Magons comes back and tells me what specifically Australians did for Halloween before America started forcing their children to trick or treat against their will, I'll concede that point and take it all back.

But I my impression is that there was no celebration prior to this, and so this new tradition happens to be filling a spot that was previously empty. It is not as far as I know replacing or disrespecting any existing cultural tradition.

Until I have this clarification, I can only assume Magons is looking for people to acknowledge her cultural superiority and mourn with her over the foolishness of television zombies of her country acting like those awful American philistines. How lamentable. Unfortunately, I live by the belief system that no culture is inherently better or preferable to any other culture, and I happen to like Halloween. I also am not going to take the blame for Magons' neighbors deciding of their own volition that they want to celebrate Halloween "American" style just because Magons dislikes the holiday for whatever reason.

Nor am I a "CULTURAL IMPERIALIST" for saying that I think her argument is unsound and fallacious and explaining why.

It's basically a reverse bandwagon fallacy and also a genetic fallacy: saying that something is wrong or bad because it has become popular and also because where the idea originated from. The goodness or badness of a practice or idea is completely unrelated to it's popularity or origin.

If Magons dislikes Halloween because other people in her country are celebrating it, she is entitled to that, but it is a matter of personal preference and opinion as opposed to some sort of WRONG perpetuated against her and Australia.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, November 4, 2013 12:33 PM

Said what I needed to say as clearly as possible. not going to say the same thing over again so Byte can come back with some bitchy response. You either get the objection to feeling like American culture is taking over your own, or you don't.. Believe me when I say, my sentiments are shared by many citizens of the world.

BYTEMITE

Monday, November 4, 2013 9:40 PM

You're complaining about your OWN PEOPLE making THEIR OWN CHOICES.

It's like Islamists in Turkey complaining about American music and dance and fashion because the youth in that country are BUYING the stuff. Yeah, I guess we're really forcing our culture on them huh?

If you want to talk about America forcing it's culture on the rest of the world, there are LOTS of examples you can talk about that I would even AGREE with you on. My objection is that you're using Australians importing Halloween as your go-to for resentment. Really? REALLY?

Okay. Then explain how people choosing to participate and buy the stuff is forcing. What, because you think they're dumb and don't know any better than to choose American culture? Because Australia is inundated with American programming that they're CHOOSING TO WATCH and SUPPORTING with their viewing habits? What is your reasoning?

In short, you're entitled to your opinion, you can hate Halloween. Resentment doesn't have to justifiable.

But you didn't explain ANYTHING, just made an unsupported claim that you argued and elaborated on only by belligerent repetition, you completely dodged addressing the logical issues I have with your argument by ignoring them or dismissing them as bitchy. Then you strawmanned me by saying that oh I just don't understand how awful it is how America forces it's culture on people. Because I've totally been for that in the past with all the WARS and SPYING overreach and TORTURE and diplomatic hypocrisy and racial profiling and corporate world domination and war on terror arm twisting bullshit, haven't I?

So no. Either put up your actual logic, or agree to disagree, but I'm not going to accept one iota more of your ad hominems, presumptions, appeals to guilt, and fallacious distractions in this conversation. If you're going to call me an imperialist swine, I demand better rational.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 3:36 AM

Fuck you. Byte.

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 3:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Fuck you. Byte.

Wow.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 3:47 AM

Maybe, just maybe, you oughta learn a little tolerance for the opinions of others... yeah sure, I'm one to talk, but seriously, being called on your own BS is not really something you should use as an excuse for hostility, but rather a self-examination of WHY it bothers you oh so very much.

Yeah, I know, fuck me too...

You're welcome.

-Frem

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 4:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Fuck you. Byte.

The choice is made. Conversation is done.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 4:05 AM

Quote:
Maybe, just maybe, you oughta learn a little tolerance for the opinions of others...

(Not sure which one you're talking to)

(Not really a tolerant person)

(Doesn't matter, conversation reached it's useful lifespan)

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 6:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
2. Her countrymen are proving to be just as weak and susceptible to million dollar marketing as ours has been.

Ding ding ding ding ding!

Yep. I hate how commercial this shit is, but to blame America for the orange and black aisle of the grocery store is ridiculous. Point the finger at those who deserve it: *stupid people*. There are stupid people everywhere, even in Australia. Stupid people buy into the commercialization, even though the original holiday is *NOT* American. Day of the Dead, right? Mexico, baby. And maybe it picked up that annoying commercialization BS in the US, but the fact that it's taken over Europe and even the Aussies makes it pretty clear: it's a failing of human beings, not of Americans.

And still there are things that are fun about it. Wearing a costume is fun, whether its a bastardization of a Mexican holiday or out of fandom to a sci-fi show. So what the hell, Magons, are you gonna hate on people dressing up like Firefly characters because its an invasion of American evilness?

Sorry babe. I have always thought you 100% cool about everything, but in this thread you crash and burn. There are plenty of things to hate on America about. To go after this one is lame.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

NIKI2

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 7:04 AM

Magons, I hear your frustration...I'm sorry you let it stoop you to that level, but I do understand.

I don't think you'll find many Americans who do, unfortunately. It's a huge and difficult stretch to imagine another culture overtaking our own, and yes, partly BECAUSE we've overtaken so much of the world. I understand it on a different level; like when we were in Europe, in this gorgeous old city, and I rounded a corner and came face to face with a McDonalds. My stomach dropped.

Obviously I haven't experienced the Halloween thing you have, so I can only extrapolate from what I have experienced. It definitely saddens me to see the impact my country is making on the world, but it's truly not about individual Americans, we're people, nothing more. It's about the marketers, and they did it to us long before they reached out to do it to the rest of the world. I wish so much that the others here could understand, not that we could do anything about it.

In fairness I have to say that what you described of the kids is the other side of it. Everywhere I have lived, kids trick-or-treating isn't as big as it was when I was a kid, and of course I never had kids so never saw that side of it. But mostly, for me, it's commercialism every where I look, a bit of trick or treating by children, some news stories (like the woman who ate a candy bar her daughter brought home, to find it had been laced with LSD), and the next morning, all the aisles are filled with Thanksgiving things to buy--some even Xmas.

We got home from our trip Thursday afternoon and I went to the market, only to find it absolutely inundated with people buying candy. You couldn't find candy corn to save your life, literally, I looked, but there were tons of bags of the most popular stuff, and people were stocking up. It saddened me.

So when I read your description of how excited and happy the kids were, it reminded me that that's what Halloween USED to be, as I saw it, until about thirty years ago or so. And the places that still exists, to me, are a GOOD thing...in this world, happy kids is something to be celebrated, whatever the cause.

So I'm of two minds on it. I see the good, and I see the bad that it's become. Just my two cents' worth.

OONJERAH

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 7:58 AM

deleted

=====

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 8:53 AM

With all due respect...

If you've got something to say Oonj, come on out and say it. Speaking in riddles and foggy generalities does no service to you or to those you are hoping to reach. It just makes you seem foggy and generally inapplicable.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 9:03 AM

To follow up on the OP, it turns out that I didn't dress up. :( I really meant to go with Marge Simpson, but the local costume store was packed with suburbanites and I didn't see a Marge wig within my very short tolerance time for a packed strip mall costume shop two days before Halloween.

I also had hella work deadlines which didn't leave me time to do anything creative from my own closet, which is the way I prefer to go. Imagine my horror when, at 4 pm on 10/31 the perfect costume idea came to me: a bald wig, some drawn on stubble, frumpy khaki pants, button up blah shirt and similarly boring jacket, loafers, and--the dealmaker--a plastic bag full of blue sugar candy. I could have been Walter White! Damn! my students would have looooooved that.

By next year it won't be the top topic it is now. I missed my chance, bummer!

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 9:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
With all due respect...

If you've got something to say Oonj, come on out and say it. Speaking in riddles and foggy generalities does no service to you or to those you are hoping to reach. It just makes you seem foggy and generally inapplicable.

She's talking to me, of course, because I'm a young fool with all the tender caring sensitivity and emotional skill of a sharp rock. I eschew politeness and niceties in favor of calling it like I see it.

It does not earn me much in the eyes of others, but I'm used to that.

Quote:
I also had hella work deadlines which didn't leave me time to do anything creative from my own closet, which is the way I prefer to go. Imagine my horror when, at 4 pm on 10/31 the perfect costume idea came to me: a bald wig, some drawn on stubble, frumpy khaki pants, button up blah shirt and similarly boring jacket, loafers, and--the dealmaker--a plastic bag full of blue sugar candy. I could have been Walter White! Damn! my students would have looooooved that.

:(

That would have been good.

I didn't dress up either. just ate candy and watched ghostbusters. good enough.

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 9:46 AM

Really Byte? Because I feel Magons deserves a poke or two in the eye, so to speak, for blaming the excesses of her own people on America. It's disingenuous at best. Denial and transference of guilt more likely.

You want to know who really is a winner at all this? Barbados. The Bajan people turned up their noses at good ol' McDs. And how about Jamaica? Same deal there. You want to honor a culture that rejected imperial capitalism, something the rest of us failed at, look to the Caribbean.

You won't find this kind of resistance in America, or Europe, and leave the Aussies out of it. The Caribbean has kicked all our asses. OK, Burger King did fine in Jamaica, but Bajans love their local chain Chaffette so much that the golden arches folded and left town. A McD chzbrgr will never beat one of Chefette's Rotis. With good reason.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 9:22 PM

Quote:
Really Byte? Because I feel Magons deserves a poke or two in the eye, so to speak, for blaming the excesses of her own people on America.

She deployed the Eff You clause. Having deployed the Eff You clause once or twice myself in my time here, I immediately recognized that the conversation was nuked.

Even a Black Bloc Gadfly such as myself must recognize unexploded ordnance and mark it accordingly.

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 9:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Really Byte? Because I feel Magons deserves a poke or two in the eye, so to speak, for blaming the excesses of her own people on America.

She deployed the Eff You clause. Having deployed the Eff You clause once or twice myself in my time here, I immediately recognized that the conversation was nuked.

Even a Black Bloc Gadfly such as myself must recognize unexploded ordnance and mark it accordingly.

I do not fear internet explosions. Someone else's ka-boom ends nothing for me. :)

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

NIKI2

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 9:42 PM

What's amazing to me is that, despite Mal4 SPECIFICALLY using Oonj's name in her post, Byte nonetheless is positive it's about HER. Amazing.

And "Internet explosions" don't actually EXIST...given people can and do write anything they feel like, and frequently things they wouldn't say IRL to real people, EVERYTHING on the internet doesn't actually "exist" in reality. If one is upset by them, one shouldn't partake for one's own sanity, simple as that. Given there are no protections, it's incumbent on each person to protect themselves however they see fit. Certainly someone who keeps reminding us that they're so "evil" that everyone should hate and fear them shouldn't be bothered by an obscenity or two.

Mostly yeah, Mal4, "You want to honor a culture that rejected imperial capitalism"…When you come right down to it, the problem Magons has (and I have) with Halloween merely say that Australians are as easily manipulated by the capitalist system as WE are, not that we're any worse or better.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, November 5, 2013 10:26 PM

Quote:
What's amazing to me is that, despite Mal4 SPECIFICALLY using Oonj's name in her post, Byte nonetheless is positive it's about HER. Amazing.

*Face palm*

This is twice now I've had to break the code in order to explain things to you.

I was talking TO Mal4Prez ABOUT Oonj, whose cryptic and undirected remarks are never nearly as cryptic and directionless as she'd like them to appear to be.

Of course Oonj was talking about me, because she's said stuff like this to me more straightforwardly before and she never says stuff like this to anyone else.

I was not thinking that Mal4Prez was talking about me when she was talking about Oonj.

As for evil, I have no qualms about profanity, and use it like an artist dabbles in fingerpaints, but there is no reason to push someone over the edge when they're not at their best. That serves nothing, and I gain nothing from doing so.

I get that you think it's fun and all to lash out at me whenever you see something that you remotely think has a chance at discrediting me and calling into question my mental state, but no one is fooled, and no one is impressed. Especially with how you repeatedly and consistently get the particulars WRONG.

And for someone who thinks that I'm ridiculous for hanging onto a grudge against someone who purportedly has no grudge with me, you sure do like to misread things and immediately claim that I'm mistaken in other people's motivations and comments. One might think you're deliberately looking for something you can mock. And how about how you bring up that "Evil" thing I was on when I was trolling you about oh maybe two years ago CONSTANTLY and in COMPLETELY UNRELATED TOPICS?

In short. I might be paranoid, but I also know that I'm CORRECT. You want to hurt me then find a new trick.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 2:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
What's amazing to me is that, despite Mal4 SPECIFICALLY using Oonj's name in her post, Byte nonetheless is positive it's about HER. Amazing.

*Face palm*

This is twice now I've had to break the code in order to explain things to you.

I was talking TO Mal4Prez ABOUT Oonj, whose cryptic and undirected remarks are never nearly as cryptic and directionless as she'd like them to appear to be.

I understood what you meant Byte, except I took the potential explosion to be coming from Magons. Oonj's post genuinely confused me. I'm bummed he/she deleted it rather than explaining it, but then maybe not because it surely was a poke at someone or another.

And Byte, I think you just did good explaining things to Niki with only a little understandable bristling. I find that this is the key to dealing with this stuff - explain without the explosion. Which is maybe why I don't fear the internet explosions these days. Other people can blow up all they want, and I don't have to go there too.

Anyway, I doubt Niki enjoys lashing out at you and very much doubt she did this on purpose. Probably just defensive which made her quick to jump to conclusions, which we've all been with each other from time to time.

Peace all.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

NIKI2

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 7:38 AM

Sigh...yes Mal4, I misunderstood, nothing more. Wasn't defensive, either, I have no interest in any of the stuff Byte was so enthusiastically accusing me of; she hates me, but I don't reciprocate, I just find her somewhat annoying from time to time. I was just sad Oonj deleted whatever her comment was, and misunderstood the following remarks. I think it's kind of understandable that I misunderstood, given Byte quoted YOU addressing OONJ and said "she's talking to me"; it's not surprising I thought Byte was addressing the group. Simple as that.

Actually, Oonj's remark wasn't a snipe at Byte at all, from what she wrote to me, I think it was aimed at the group in general. I didn't know what it was at the time I wrote my remarks, but because I remarked on it, she explained it to me privately. I think she was trying to say that because the thread was about "Why Halloween is Depressing", Magons explaining why it was to depressing to HER was just that, her opinion, and maybe not deserving of everyone coming down on her like a ton of bricks. She just deleted it rather than get embroiled in what was already getting, well, you know, which I think showed good sense.

Thanx for the "only a little understandable bristling", I got a good laugh out of that one. If you call a reaming like Byte just gave out a little understandable bristling, well, that's amusing.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:26 AM

Oonj always says she meant it more generally, then later on posts something that she admits she meant it towards me. I've experienced that too many times to accept the explanation that it wasn't. It was, and she should own it.

Mal4Prez, you shouldn't side with me. Your friendship with Niki is more valuable than what I can offer. And, admittedly, it bothers me that apparently I'm so nasty that people have to modify their behaviour to avoid me getting angry. It is among one of the many reasons why I have tried to leave the board, and should still leave.

NIKI2

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 7:09 PM

I tried to put this diplomatically but it ended up being too long in an effort not to offend, so instead I'll just be as blatant as you are; it's none of your business who agrees or disagrees with anyone else on a particular topic, and it has nothing to do with being friends. I wouldn't respect anyone who "sided" with me just to be my friend and I know Mal4 never would, but it does say a hellofalot about you that you think that way.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 7:52 PM

And once again you miss the point.

Whether I'm friends with someone or not has nothing to do with whether they side with me in an internet argument. I don't know if you've noticed, but I disagree with most everyone on the board on pretty much everything, and yet I'm still friends with most of them. Rather, friendship has a great deal to do with whether they respect me, and whether I respect them. You and I don't respect each other. Oonj doesn't respect me. And I'm pretty sure Mal4Prez doesn't respect me - pity is a very different thing from respect. I am rejecting her pity and suggesting that she rejoin your circle so that she does not damage her reputation by associating with me.

It's also an objective assessment of the situation. Ship is sinking. Abandon ship.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 9:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Whether I'm friends with someone or not has nothing to do with whether they side with me in an internet argument.

Wait. So why did you recommend that I don't "side" with you? Wow, you're confusing. As to respect:

"Mal4Prez, you shouldn't side with me. Your friendship with Niki is more valuable than what I can offer."

Is flat out saying that I risk losing Niki's friendship by siding with you. That's some pretty hardcore lack of respect for her and for me. Do you really think is the only reason I would agree or disagree with someone?

You've got one helluva a filter there Byte. As I've said before: someday hopefully you'll let it go and see the world really isn't so ugly and people aren't nearly so focused on you as you think.

And no, the fact that I'm writing a post to you does not mean I'm focused on you. I will get on with my day with hardly more thoughts about this no matter what happens here.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:20 PM

Quote:
Is flat out saying that I risk losing Niki's friendship by siding with you.

Yep. Niki does that. She holds friendships hostage in exchange for agreement, and cuts people loose when they don't agree. Just ask Frem.

Quote:
Wait. So why did you recommend that I don't "side" with you?

Because I was hoping to not cause harm to you. It doesn't matter to me if no one sides with me, I'm used to that. But siding with me would put you at odds with your other friends.

Whatever. I was trying to offer you helpful advice to avoid a conflict. And even though as usual this ended up the worse for me, equilibrium has been restored.

NIKI2

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:45 PM

Gawd, what a complete crock of SHIT!

You can write anything you want here, Byte, but you DON'T SPEAK FOR ME and I won't let you lie about me! I respect your intelligence, and have said so repeatedly, and make note of particularly astute observations on your part just like I do everyone else. You know that perfectly well.

I love this: "Whether I'm friends with someone or not has nothing to do with whether they side with me in an internet argument." But it works differently for others, so obviously you have no respect for anyone.

Don't start lying about me, which is precisely what you've just done. "She holds friendships hostage in exchange for agreement, and cuts people loose when they don't agree. Just ask Frem" IS A BALD-FACED LIE! Frem and my difficulties were very clear; he called me and others liars, and then went on to accuse me of things which were patently false AND I POSTED THE PROOF. I tried to work things out with him repeatedly, even in private, because to me it was a matter of misunderstanding on his part and lack of respect for my opinion, insofar as he kept attributing things to me WHICH WERE NOT TRUE. HE never responded, and has denigrated me a couple of times since he returned; note that I have not denigrated him ONCE since our disagreement in any way. I'M the one who reached out and tried to work things out with him; these people were here at the time, you can't change the facts to suit your games.

I repeat; on one issue or another, I have agreed with every single detractor I have here, and disagreed with every single person who isn't negative toward me. There is no "circle", there are no "reputations" except how civil people are to one another; agreement and disagreement between people changes with every issue, and that's true for many of us here. Obviously not for you, but your narrow-minded bigotry toward others has nothing to do with how others regard one another. You weren't "trying to offer helpful advice to avoid a conflict", you were attempting to be manipulative; THAT's an "objective assessment", not your "hall monitor" bullshit.

You can play your "Nobody likes me, everybody hates me, I'm gonna go eat worms" game all DAY and it won't get one stitch closer to reality; you want MY advice: give it up. It's gotten terribly old. And I'm not letting you get away with lying about me here with impunity.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:56 PM

This is nice.

Halloween is bringing everyone together, to hate each other.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:59 PM

I'll hold whatever opinion about you that I want to, and say whatever I want to, since it's apparently okay for you to say whatever you want about ME and MY motivations. I respect most of the people on this board except for the people I don't normally talk to for various personal reasons.

You mock me whenever I refuse to agree with you that there might be something positive about the world on the basis that I CAN'T agree because I don't see it and I can't see it, you call me fake, you say I'm playing games when I'm sincere - what is that but terminating a friendship on the basis of a minor internet disagreement? And then, most hurtful of all, you continued to pretend you didn't have a problem with me, and only just now admitted that you think I'm annoying.

Well, I just gave you a REAL reason to have a problem with me. Frem wasn't right to call you a liar about the gun control thing, but it absolutely did wreck whatever friendship the two of you had, and the fault of that was on both sides, as was the inability to mend the differences because it just turned back into the exact same argument. The friendship ended because of a disagreement, and it remains as such because of the continuing disagreement.

I push people away because I know I'm toxic. This was the best possible outcome for most of the people involved here. It is really that simple. And I acted on that. You can make it out to be whatever you want. If you want to call that a game, then I'd say you have a funny definition of what constitutes "fun", but fine, think as you will.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 11:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
This is nice.

Halloween is bringing everyone together, to hate each other.

It's only what was always here under the surface.

NIKI2

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 11:26 PM

No hate on this side, Mark, just a bit of frustration.

"say whatever I want to." In other words, you're stating for the record that if you feel like lying about me, you'll do so whenever you feel like it. Got it. As I already wrote "You can write anything you want here, but I'll call you on your lies every time. I

"You mock me whenever I refuse to agree with you that there might be something positive about the world". Untrue. I DISAGREED with your insistence that the world sucks is "the way it is, period", rather than merely your opinion. Hell, I even agreed that I experience the same thing; difference is, I accept it's my brain, I don't attribute it to everyone.

That is my main disagreement with you every time, that you state things as flat fact, and will brook no opposition, rather than accepting at any time that what you write is your opinion and others might disagree.

I'd suggest you quit while you're behind rather than dig yourself in any deeper. That way you can feel secure in your hatred of me and go back to not engaging me.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 11:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
This is nice.

Halloween is bringing everyone together, to hate each other.

It's only what was always here under the surface.

It was a joke, but I suppose it applies more literally to some...

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 11:39 PM

Quote:
That is my main disagreement with you every time, that you state things as flat fact, and will brook no opposition, rather than accepting at any time that what you write is your opinion and others might disagree.

Everything that we post on the board is inferred to be opinion. I tend to speak in absolutes as a stylistic choice, but there have been numerous times I have mentioned that it is the "only way I can see it." It is MY reality.

Will I challenge other people saying that I see my reality incorrectly when I say I consider life a dreary, bleak, and wretched place? Oh yes. You're challenging the intrinsic truths of ME, what I've experienced, what my life is.

And that doesn't change the many other things you have said about me, or what I have said about you. It doesn't change your mockery in threads even before this.

Quote:
I'd suggest you quit while you're behind rather than dig yourself in any deeper.

You're still not listening. Digging myself in deeper is the point. As it has been for many years now.

Nice threat though. Especially the vaguely implied consequences. You honestly think I have anything left to lose on this board? You think I don't know that most people think the way you do about me?

Not engaging you wasn't cowardice, Niki, it was a last ditch effort at civility that has now completely eroded.

NIKI2

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 11:54 PM

"...your mockery whenever I showed up in a thread even before this." Oh, for heaven's sake, DO stop lying why don't you.

ETA: Ah, I see you edited. There's no threat or veiled anything, Byte; it was a snark, nothing more. You take things to such extremes, when it's really not necessary. What possible "consequences" do you think I could threaten you with on the internet??? What anyone here thinks of you is their business, I don't keep score, sorry.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 11:56 PM

Quote:
"...your mockery whenever I showed up in a thread even before this." Oh, for heaven's sake, DO stop lying why don't you.

I fixed it before you posted, because yes, sometimes you offer unwanted and completely unwarranted praise or apologies in threads that are as painful as everything else you do towards me and which I'm sure you don't mean.

But for all you shout lies lies lies, for all you say that you don't hate me, your actions and your attitude says differently.

NIKI2

Thursday, November 7, 2013 12:03 AM

What happened to "I'll hold whatever opinion about you that I want to, and say whatever I want to"? That's only true for you, apparently? Your inference is I'm deliberately "hurting" you by doing writing anything positive about you. Got it. Don't understand it, but whatever floats your boat. I don't "praise" people; I express my opinion, agree or disagree, and remark on well-thought-out comments by others. You know, like it's a forum board, like everyone else does.

ETA: as to your addition, I think you don't fully understand the meaning of the word "hate". I'll leave you to continue hating me, but you can't make me hate you, sorry.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 7, 2013 12:20 AM

Understand it perfectly well. I also see you're still saying sorry when you don't mean it. Really throws into question the rest of the statement it's paired with.

Quote:
I'll leave you to continue hating me

I'll throw a party and inform the state capital. I have been given your leave. *Bows and curtsies hugs and kisses*

STORYMARK

Thursday, November 7, 2013 12:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Digging myself in deeper is the point. As it has been for many years now.

If you're going to embrace that attitude - don't be whiny when people get sick of it.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

NIKI2

Thursday, November 7, 2013 12:42 AM

No, I honestly don't think you do. There are all kinds of things in between "love" and "hate", but you seem to go straight from "friend" to "hate". I don't HATE anyone here, and if I were gonna blow "hate" on anyone, don't you think it would be Kane or some of those who have wished my death? Hating me only hurts you, which is sad, that's all.

And you shouldn't try to pretend you don't understand "sorry" as a snark, nobody's gonna buy it.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 7, 2013 12:53 AM

I guess you just happen to have pissed me off enough that I put you in the special category for people I just can't forgive. People who I don't talk to, which is why I usually don't talk to you.

Quote:
And you shouldn't try to pretend you don't understand "sorry" as a snark, nobody's gonna buy it.

Your snarky sorries and backhanded apologies have exactly the same sound as your claims that you're only "frustrated." I don't expect anyone else around here will believe me. But you and I know, and that's what matters.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 7, 2013 1:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Digging myself in deeper is the point. As it has been for many years now.

when people get sick of it.

Well yeah. Still the point.

STORYMARK

Thursday, November 7, 2013 2:17 AM

And still played out and tiresome.

But you seem to deliberately miss my point. If you're gonna act like that - don't be a crybaby when people actually respond to the behavior.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 7, 2013 2:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
And still played out and tiresome.

But you seem to deliberately miss my point. If you're gonna act like that - don't be a crybaby when people actually respond to the behavior.

Storymark. I'm saying that my whining and everything is intentional. It creates a negative feedback loop. Reinforces all the existing perceptions. Crosses boundaries. Preserves balance. Unites the board.

An analogy: Imagine that I am a virus, and the board is an immunological response.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, November 7, 2013 2:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
And still played out and tiresome.

But you seem to deliberately miss my point. If you're gonna act like that - don't be a crybaby when people actually respond to the behavior.

Storymark. I'm saying that my whining and everything is intentional. It creates a negative feedback loop. Reinforces all the existing perceptions. Crosses boundaries. Preserves balance. Unites the board.

An analogy: Imagine that I am a virus, and the board is an immunological response.

So you are intentionally being a dick to make people hate you and then when they hate you you pass judgement on them as evil bad people you can't ever forgive.

Great system. Guarantees you will always be the victim. Enjoy. Seriously, you must enjoy or you wouldn't keep doing it.

Meantime, I have beer and wings to enjoy. :)

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 7, 2013 3:09 AM

Quote:
Enjoy. Seriously, you must enjoy or you wouldn't keep doing it.

Funny enough, that's what Niki said and how that whole thing got started.

Oh well. Lemons, lemonade.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, November 7, 2013 3:20 AM

What if you don't want the lemons ?

-F

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 7, 2013 3:31 AM

Nah, the lemons are great. They taste awful, but then you can throw the rinds at people.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, November 7, 2013 5:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Nah, the lemons are great. They taste awful, but then you can throw the rinds at people.

-the ruling philosophy of Byte's life.

Before you go there, I still don't hate you and never will. I'll just continue to hopefully anticipate the day when you pull your head out and open your eyes.

Check again hon - what I posted above is not what Niki said, it's what you said, your own words plain and simple. Has nothing to do with Niki. Honestly (sorry Niki), I barely read her posts today past a sentence or two. I really don't care about this battle you have going with her. I just find your cognitive dissonance fascinating. I want to understand how you maintain it, as you seem a reasonable and logical person who should know better.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 7, 2013 5:43 AM

I never said I enjoyed it. Only you and Niki have done that. But right now I'm thinking I might as well. I'm pretty sure what people think of me at this point can't get any worse, so it lends my situation all kinds of possibilities.

PN's greatest hits sounds pretty fun, or maybe just cat pictures and paragraphs of meowing. Both would be excellent choices and would likely amuse everyone.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, November 7, 2013 6:08 AM

My 'fuck you' remark was due to some shit going on in my life. Not an appropriate response to feelings of frustration with Byte.

Clarify

DOn't hate Halloween per se, just find it a depressing symbol of how much we've been inundated with another's culture.

Yes, that's partially down to choices that Australians make.

But I think to entirely deny responsibility as Americans for the impact of your cultural inundation of the rest of the world is typical American naivism.

Well, it's all about individual choice, aint it?

Er, not really.

Inundation, some would say indoctrination with another's culture....24 hours of tv and films dominated by another culture along with sophisticated advertising changes the way people think. It changes their brains!!! That's what we have here. So produce our own, you say. Yeah we do. But market forces means that local productions can't compete with American imports. So there we have it. Local business cant compete with huge multinationals like KFC, MacDonalds, Cripsy Creme. pleased to say that Gloria Jean was a fizzer. One thing we have rejected is crap american coffee.

So is it all bad and evil. Of course not. I'm reminded of the Life of Brian when a group of Judaians sit around and bitch about the Romans.

And that is what imperialism is, whether its England bringing railways and effective bureacracies to India, or the Romans and the aquaducts and decent roads. And yes, thank you America for Firefly and Joss Whedon and a lot of stuff I enjoy. But it still pisses the locals off.

So if I whine and bitch, about MacDonalds being built up the road despite the massive protests of locals, and the slow insidious creep of customs which are not my own, say Halloween, let me say, its kind of galling to have Americans say things like 'it's just a bit of fun, lighten up' or 'it's ALL your own responsibility, stop blaming us'. Hence my little melt down.

My hubby swears if we start on Thanksgiving, he's moving to a non English speaking country.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 7, 2013 6:13 AM

I figured something else was going on and continued pushing you anyway, so don't worry about it.

And it's cool, I'm okay with being a naive cultural oppressor now. I won't argue with you about Halloween anymore. I was basically just being an asshole to you for no reason. It's just what I do. It's kind of indiscriminate.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, November 7, 2013 6:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I never said I enjoyed it. Only you and Niki have done that. But right now I'm thinking I might as well. I'm pretty sure what people think of me at this point can't get any worse, so it lends my situation all kinds of possibilities.

You said you did it intentionally. Own it Byte. If you can't own it, then understand why you don't get the respect you seem to expect.

At very least, cheez and rice STOP judging people and damning them for giving you exactly the reaction you have driven them to give.

I know you *get* that. I know you aren't too logically challenged.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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