Despite what doom/gloomers say, economy roars on.

POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Thursday, October 23, 2025 22:23
VIEWED: 13616
PAGE 2 of 2

FIRST PAGE PREV PAGE 1 2

KANEMAN

Monday, March 26, 2007 5:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
You haven't answered any of my questions, or anyone elses for that matter (hint, scroll up, they were made months ago before you went off for a sulk), so why should I, or anyone else answer yours?

First of all, I started this thread w/ facts, a report on how well the economy is doing. Now, after almost 3 months since the original post, you want to claim some sort of victory because of one little slow down, as if that completely dismisses the great economic news from the past several years.

Still no reply to my question, huh? I know, it's because you don't like that answer, and all that it implies.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Why argue with non US citizens/America haters about the US economy? I don't see the point. If they are unwilling to accept the meaning of 'growth', how can you have a discussion? You are a better man than most for even trying too. It would drive the average person crazy to debate with these people. And that doesn't depend on what the meaning of is, is....Good luck.

*edit*
just noticed the date on your last post....good to see you have abandoned that self-abuse

CITIZEN

Monday, March 26, 2007 6:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Why argue with non US citizens/America haters about the US economy? I don't see the point. If they are unwilling to accept the meaning of 'growth', how can you have a discussion? You are a better man than most for even trying too. It would drive the average person crazy to debate with these people. And that doesn't depend on what the meaning of is, is....Good luck.

*edit*
just noticed the date on your last post....good to see you have abandoned that self-abuse

Trolls together, at least there's honour amongst trolls eh

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

SIGNYM

Monday, March 26, 2007 10:34 PM

Finn- are you going to come out and play?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

TELCOD

Monday, March 26, 2007 10:46 PM

I believe that every corporation in America in fact around the world has my best interest at heart and is truly interested in the environment. That they would be personally upset if I have to eat out of a dumpster. All we need to do is get those 3rd world 12 year olds to work 14 hours a day instead of 12 hours and our way of life will flurish for another 2 or three years. More if we send our own 12 year olds out to help.

Sign the petition or fadehttp:// www.petitionspot.com/petitions/bringbackfirefly Captain B

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 2:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- are you going to come out and play?

Well, you have to look at this from my point of view. I’m very busy, so when I get involved in a debate, I like for it to be about something interesting. Now I find the economy interesting, but I don’t find anything interest about listening to people rag on their own political grievances. I spent much of this thread going around and around in circles with Citizen, only to have him confirm exactly what I said would happen in the beginning. Essentially the economy is just a metaphor for peoples’ sociopolitical grievances. If you’re an anti-Capitalist, like Citizen, the US economy will never be good because it’s not what you want to hear. If you hate Bush, the economy will never be good, because such a thing might reflect well on Bush. It would be nice to have a discussion about the economy, but what are the odds that it would actually be about the economy?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 3:12 AM

But I've been so good about staying on-topic. So what would you like to talk about?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 4:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- are you going to come out and play?
Well, you have to look at this from my point of view. I’m very busy, so when I get involved in a debate, I like for it to be about something interesting. Now I find the economy interesting, but I don’t find anything interest about listening to people rag on their own political grievances. I spent much of this thread going around and around in circles with Citizen, only to have him confirm exactly what I said would happen in the beginning. Essentially the economy is just a metaphor for peoples’ sociopolitical grievances. If you’re an anti-Capitalist, like Citizen, the US economy will never be good because it’s not what you want to hear. If you hate Bush, the economy will never be good, because such a thing might reflect well on Bush. It would be nice to have a discussion about the economy, but what are the odds that it would actually be about the economy?

In other words you agree with finn or he gets to call you this or that and dismiss anything you say out of hand and you're not worth talking to. Thank you Finn.

So it's fair to say that since you're pro-Capitalism the US-economy, nor any aspect of it WILL never be bad, because it's not what you want to hear.

For someone who hasn't much time to post you sure have a lot of time to make personal statements on other posters

.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

RUE

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 5:26 PM

Home defaults swamp counselors, followed by:

Consumer confidence drops in March
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070327/ap_on_bi_ge/economy;_ylt=AraHuflr1
4DYGiGR_X5Mp1jMWM0F

Stocks fall on weak housing report
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070327/ap_on_bi_st_ma_re/wall_street;_ylt
=AkAmiIzl4qCjH17TfMvvbTnMWM0F

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 5:36 PM

So consumer confidence is dropping and the housing market is cooling. If these are the two indicators being used to gauge the health of the economy, than I guess the economy was 'roaring on' back at the outset of this thread. So what was all the arguing about?

Posting to stir stuff up.

RUE

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 5:44 PM

"Posting to stir stuff up."

Actually, the initial post was about the stock market, not the housing market and consumer confidence. So, yeah, it's quite evident you're only posting as a troll and not posting facts.

Most of the dispute was about getting people to stake their opinions on specific markers rather than shift from one to the next. Evading whatever was down and focusing on whatever was up that day..

Personally, my markers have always been percentage in poverty and wages. A GOOD economy floats all boats. If en masse people are getting poorer, how good can the economy be?

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 5:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Actually, the initial post was about the stock market, not the housing market and consumer confidence. So, yeah, it's quite evident you're only posting as a troll and not posting facts.

So why are you providing links regarding the housing market and consumer confidence?

Quote:

Most of the dispute was about getting people to stake their opinions on specific markers rather than shift from one to the next. Evading whatever was down and focusing on whatever was up that day..

Please see my above question.

Posting to stir stuff up.

RUE

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 6:03 PM

Cause the original poster then shifted ground, again, to include them. So why are YOU posting about them, seeing as they weren't "at the outset of this thread" (as you claimed)?

Please see my question, above.

RUE

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 6:08 PM

BTW, if you don't want people calling you a troll, you better stop advertising yourself as one, as in: "Posting to stir stuff up."

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 6:59 PM

Which is why I persistently tried to get Auraptor to define what he considers "the economy". He hopped from one indicator to the next. He left the thread rather than (I speculate) enter into a substantive discussion.

But the question "What is the economy?" is worthy of a PhD dissertation and could sustain a lengthy and lively debate. I personally would like to talk about "the economy" because it's a hobby of mine, and because I always learn something new from discussions here (provided the topic doesn't degenerate into a flame war.)

And yes "Posting to stir stuff up" is a troll's motto. Might want to reconsider your signature.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Cause the original poster then shifted ground, again, to include them. So why are YOU posting about them, seeing as they weren't "at the outset of this thread" (as you claimed)?

Because, most recently in this thread, you and SignyM started to use housing and consumer confidence as your economic indicators. If both are now dropping as you state, than both must have been in a better postion at this thread's outset, hence a 'better economy'. You, in effect, legitimized the original point of this thread. That was why I asked what all the previous arguing was about.

And call me troll all you like, it matters not to me. We are what we do, not how other's perceive us. At least I'm up front about my intentions.

Posting to stir stuff up.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:28 PM

Whatever.

What I'm trying to get going is a discussion on what indicators we should choose to take the pulse of "the economy". But the indicators that we choose say a lot about what we think "the economy" SHOULD be doing, which is rooted in our ideological views.

For example, if you were to chose the stock market as one of fundamental indicators, it means that you think of "investors" as the appropriate focus of economic activity because "investment" is a primary driving force. Investment is important because it is the engine that eventually creates a better life for all.

That's one theory.

What's yours?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

RUE

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:49 PM

I already said mine - percent in poverty and working wages. It's rooted in the view that the economy is a human construct made to serve people. Seems simple and common-sense enough to me.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
That's one theory.

What's yours?

Gross Domestic Product.
http://www.bea.gov/

Posting to stir stuff up.

RUE

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:58 PM

Anyway, I'm gone for the next week.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 9:12 PM

So in your view, "production" is what an economy should be doing. However, GDP is not a good measure of "standard of living". For example, an economy that produces a lot but exports nearly all of its production would have a low standard of living. Given that, do you still think GDP is a good measure of "the economy", and why?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 9:13 PM

Hey Rue- safe flight. Hope things are good at the other end. Let me know.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
So in your view, "production" is what an economy should be doing. However, GDP is not a good measure of "standard of living". For example, an economy that produces a lot but exports nearly all of its production would have a low standard of living.

GDP has it's uses to measure standard of living but I agree it is not the best indicator.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdp
GDP per capita is often used as an indicator of standard of living in an economy. While this approach has advantages, many criticisms of GDP focus on its use as a sole indicator of standard of living.
The major advantages to using GDP per capita as an indicator of standard of living are that it is measured frequently, widely and consistently; frequently in that most countries provide information on GDP on a quarterly basis (which allows a user to spot trends more quickly), widely in that some measure of GDP is available for practically every country in the world (allowing crude comparisons between the standard of living in different countries), and consistently in that the technical definitions used within GDP are relatively consistent between countries, and so there can be confidence that the same thing is being measured in each country.
The major disadvantage of using GDP as an indicator of standard of living is that it is not, strictly speaking, a measure of standard of living. GDP is intended to be a measure of particular types of economic activity within a country. Nothing about the definition of GDP suggests that it is necessarily a measure of standard of living. For instance, in an extreme example, a country which exported 100 per cent of its production would still have a high GDP, but a very poor standard of living.
The argument in favour of using GDP is not that it is a good indicator of standard of living, but rather that (all other things being equal) standard of living tends to increase when GDP per capita increases. This makes GDP a proxy for standard of living, rather than a direct measure of it. GDP per capita can also be seen as a proxy of labor productivity. As the productivity of the workers increases, employers must compete for them by paying higher wages. Conversely, if productivity is low, then wages must be low or the businesses will not be able to make a profit.

Quote:

Given that, do you still think GDP is a good measure of "the economy", and why?

I do, because GDP takes more than just production into consideration. GDP also includes consumption and differentiates between net exports and imports. The GDP formula is fairly standardized worldwide so 'apples to apples' comparisons can be made.

Posting to stir stuff up.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, March 28, 2007 1:13 PM

I had to look up how GDP is calculated. (See? I SAID I learned a lot here!) GDP tries real hard not to "double count", as would be the case if you counted production AND consumption. It can either be counted as production OR consumption.

We can measure GDP either by adding up all the money spent by all individuals, the expenditures approach, or by adding up all the money made by all individuals, the income approach. The expenditures approach adds all personal spending, all investment (investment meaning money spent on the things that produce like machines and buildings, etc.), and government spending, and net exports (exports minus imports). The income approach involves adding up all private income. It adds all the money that people earn (which does not count things like government help, etc.) and profits made by companies.
http://library.thinkquest.org/C004323/low/basics4.html

ALSO

GDP measures production, not exchange.... {but} GDP is represented as the sum of consumer spending, housing and business investment, net exports, and government purchases. Behind this accounting facade lurks the truth: GDP is generated by individual labor combined with both proprietors' and business capital, raw materials, energy, and technology in a myriad of different industries. The Bureau of Economic Analysis (the agency within the Department of Commerce that is responsible for GDP statistics) does show these relationships in the input-output tables and in the GDP-by-industry data tables (now produced annually).
http://www.econlib.org/LIBRARY/Enc/GrossDomesticProduct.html

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

KANEMAN

Wednesday, March 28, 2007 2:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Anyway, I'm gone for the next week.

Thank god. Is it possible to request a plane crash, I'll take inbound or outbound........

RUE

Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:20 PM

Rap,

How 'bout that economy, eh ?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070815/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/home_sales; _ylt=A0WTUcPTFsNGaSwAXQys0NUE
Existing home sales fall in 41 states

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070815/pl_nm/usa_economy_poll_dc; _ylt=AiU5hNYd6bCkUqGh_ke05IOs0NUE
Voters cooling on economic outlook: poll

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070815/bs_nm/markets_stocks_dc; _ylt=Aqf7SPS.0MKUbolk5TQ_Qq6s0NUE
The Dow industrials have lost nearly 1,000 points in just four weeks

"It was in http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=20100 where you claimed consumer confidence, existing homes sales and consumer spending, were the marks of a strong economy. SignyM pressed pretty hard for a definitive list from you that you would stick with. After a long, long time you shifted ground citing consumer confidence (again) 'the rate of growth' and the unemployment. When SignyM asked you about your new criteria, you bobbed and weaved, shifted the discussion to how much money (a few) people made during the Great Depression, China's and India's strong economies, threw some kind of slur on Europe, and well, completely abandoned the topic. That was your last point on the issue, on April 29. Only to post a WHOLE NEW THREAD ON THE SAME TOPIC (this one) just two days later.

In this one you shift ground yet agin to the stock markets.

So consumer confidence falls, the market falls, existing home sales fall, and you ... refuse to address the very items you launched.

Why is that?"

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

SIGNYM

Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:11 PM

Thanks Rue. Auraptor has an MO, and that is to bring up a topic, get thoroughly discredited on it and disappear from the thread, only to bring it up again later/ elsewhere. That's why the first thing I did when Auraptor brought up "real growth" (once again) in the "Chiquita banana" thread was to ask him HOW he defined growth. As soon as I asked, he dropped the topic. He probably had bad memeories of being asked detailed questions and being unable to answer.

I've been in his shoes, defending heartfelt positions aginst people who were older and way more politically sophisticated, feeling like I was being misunderstood and misinterpreted at every turn. I can't tell you the number of time But you know what I mean! crossed my lips. But I learned a lot of things- among other things, that what I felt deeply was sometimes quite mistaken.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

RUE

Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:12 PM

Well, I brought this up partly to mess with Rap a little, and partly b/c a similar topic (currency) has come up.

The problem with the way the government is running is not JUST about currency. It's about government spending way out of control going from a surplus to a record deficit in under 4 years. It's about the US economy now able to be extorted by both China and Japan, who own the currency. It's about sweet-deals paid by tax dollars for preferred companies and sectors while the rest - California, minority home owners, people with crushing medical debts, veterans - get shafted. I have to say that's one thing the republicans have done well - they've picked their victims and kept the damage relatively isolated from the 'rest' of society so that most people --- don't give a crap. It's about fudging the books - putting Iraq spending into the "emergency spending bill" year after year rather than in the budget. It's about a failing infrastructure being sold off to foreign interests b/c taxes are considered the greatest evil while greed is the greatest good.

The current US administration and cronies are not so slowly taking the country's economy apart for their own benefit.

Oh, and I thought this from SignyM was worth repeating.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=29694
We're rapidly advancing to third-world status. I know my persistent anti-corporatism prolly bugs a lot of Libertarians, but you know what? Business has had it's shot for decades, especially in health care. With four times as many lobbysists as Congressmen, they've had all the opportunity to create an efficient shining model of free enterprise, and all they've done is prove that venality, corruption, ineffectiveness and greed doesn't work.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

KANEMAN

Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:27 PM

How about Sentinel Group freezing it's 1.5 Billion dollar fund, because everyone is trying to sell and there are no buyers...All because of the credit crunch....Gotta love when markets are artificially inflated to look good. They will always correct themselves, letting the truth be known...

MALBADINLATIN

Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
How's the effort to push us into the slavery of godless communism going for you?

Ummmm....what the (explative) year is this anyway?.....godless communism??.

Also...I'm not blaming anyone else for my choices, I'm educated, and I work hard at the best job I could find, but if communism were implemented now it would be a raise for me. I'm on the poor side of that rich poor gap. I bet a lawyer such as yourself is not. Forgive me if I don't lend a ton of credibility to your attempt to minimize said rich poor gap

KANEMAN

Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:31 PM

"This economy needs something to step up and lead it forward and it looks like the export sector has become the savior" - Joel Narof, chief economist @ Naroff economic Advisers.

Commenting on the 705 billion dollar trade deficit....I'm I the only one that finds this hilarious...

SIGNYM

Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:40 PM

Eh, no. But I'm laughing and crying at the same time....

This topic needs a new thread.

But I won't forget you, Auraptor. *sigh*
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

RUE

Wednesday, August 15, 2007 9:29 PM

"This economy needs something to step up and lead it forward and it looks like the export sector has become the savior" ... well, yeah ! - look at all the industries and jobs being exported.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:29 PM

You dig up a post started over a fucking year ago ? Man, that's desperate. Very desperate.

Rue - it's only a record defecit if you agree that the Fed has collected record receipts as well. What's good for the goose, ya know...

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:37 PM

mmnnn .. dbl ...

RUE

Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:37 PM

Just following up on something you ran away from, b/c the topic came up again.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Just following up on something you ran away from, b/c the topic came up again.

You truely are a neurotic fuck. No offense. I didn't 'run away' from anything. After wasting 1/2 a day, and now 3 days removed still, yo'ure talking in circles over basically nothing, I'm realizing you're more than a bit obsessed.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Thursday, August 16, 2007 12:16 AM

You never did address the questions that were posted to you about the metrics of a "roaring economy". And now that the metrics you were shifting between have crashed, you've avoided the topic completely (economy topics in "... and other outrages").

So, as long as we're exchanging personal pleasantries, does that make you a confused, 'effed-up coward ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

SIGNYM

Thursday, August 16, 2007 12:36 AM

Quote:
Rue - it's only a record defecit if you agree that the Fed has collected record receipts as well. What's good for the goose, ya know

Auraptor, I can't tell which sucks worse: your arithmetic or your logic. Have you ever attempted to balance a checkbook? Do you suppose it's possible that, while receiving the same or less income you could go into debt more than you have ever gone into debt before? Nah..... it'd never happen.....

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

AURAPTOR

Thursday, August 16, 2007 12:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
You never did address the questions that were posted to you about the metrics of a "roaring economy". And now that the metrics you were shifting between have crashed, you've avoided the topic completely (economy topics in "... and other outrages").

So, as long as we're exchanging personal pleasantries, does that make you a confused, 'effed-up coward ?

Confused ? Hell yeah, because there's no question this economy has been doing very well. That you have to go back to dig up a post from 15 months ago to finally spin in your favor, NOW, is pretty fucked up.

You sure seem caught up on the coward thing a bit. Seems that's far more telling of you than anyone else.

btw...exactly how much time did you waste scrolling though past posts to dig up this thread ?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AURAPTOR

Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Rue - it's only a record defecit if you agree that the Fed has collected record receipts as well. What's good for the goose, ya know
Auraptor, I can't tell which sucks worse: your arithmetic or your logic. Have you ever attempted to balance a checkbook? Do you suppose it's possible that, while receiving the same or less income you could go into debt more than you have ever gone into debt before? Nah..... it'd never happen.....

Superlatives, son. Larger economy allows for a bigger defecit, but that defecit will be a smaller % of the budget. It's all been said before, and if you want to play that game again, have at it. I'm done w/ this merry-go-round.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:13 AM

"because there's no question this economy has been doing very well ----"

housing down in 41 states, DOW off 1000, low voter confidence - these aren't from months ago, they're from the week. You have a funny idea about what a good economy is.

How do YOU explain a "good economy" with those stats ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

AURAPTOR

Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"because there's no question this economy has been doing very well ----"

housing down in 41 states, DOW off 1000, low voter confidence - these aren't from months ago, they're from the week. You have a funny idea about what a good economy is.

How do YOU explain a "good economy" with those stats ?

Dumbass, look at when this thread was started. 16 months ago.

And you never did answer my question about how long it took you to find this thread again, so you must be an effing coward too.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:29 AM

"And you never did answer my question about how long it took you to find this thread again"

Less than a minute. I know how to do efficient searches.

So to YOU it doesn't matter that the economy is tanking now ? Is that what you're implying ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

SIGNYM

Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:53 PM

Quote:
Superlatives, son. Larger economy allows for a bigger defecit, but that defecit will be a smaller % of the budget. It's all been said before, and if you want to play that game again, have at it. I'm done w/ this merry-go-round.

Because what you just said doesn't make any sense, either generally or specifically.

It's possible to have a smaller income but record debt AND record percentage of debt at the same time. But why argue about "coulda"? Thanks to the chart you so nicely linked (but didn't read) I can see a few trends:

www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/TFDB/TFTemplate.cfm?Docid=200

Except for the 30's and 40's THE Federal deficit, as a percent of GDP, was higher in the REPUBLICAN years and highest at 6% under that Republican hero Ronnie Reagan

The ONLY President to have a surplus since 1960 was a Democrat (Clinton)

For all the fuss that Republicans make about lowering taxes, it is Democrats who take the smaller percentage of GDP as taxes, and Clinton who took the smallest percentage in 40 years, at 16.5% of GDP.

As a percent of GDP, George Bush is neither the biggest spender not the biggest debtor. However, he is the only President to create a 5% of GDP increase in debt during his tenure.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

SIGNYM

Thursday, August 16, 2007 3:36 PM

bump for Rap. Because artithmetic still works..

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

KANEMAN

Thursday, August 16, 2007 4:18 PM

Midday, DOW off another 165 at this time...Roar on..

SIGNYM

Thursday, August 16, 2007 4:35 PM

There's a certain irony to Auraptor's original statment about this economy being on fire. Yep, its roaring like a bonfire.

Carry on.

---------------------------------
Saw THAT comin'.

RUE

Thursday, August 16, 2007 4:39 PM

Down 250 now ... fascinating - like watching a train wreck.

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Midday, DOW off another 165 at this time...Roar on..

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

KANEMAN

Thursday, August 16, 2007 4:59 PM

New York Stock Exchange.

"After the numbers from the Philly Fed came out, the Nasdaq erased all its gains for the year."

Roar on.....

KANEMAN

Thursday, August 16, 2007 5:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Down 250 now ... fascinating - like watching a train wreck.
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Midday, DOW off another 165 at this time...Roar on..

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

Make that 341

SIGNYM

Thursday, August 16, 2007 5:08 PM

It'll pull out a bit.

But I wonder what would happen if the Dow broke the magic 12000 mark? Do you suppose there'd be a panic?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:14 PM

Down 16 now.
"Oh god, oh god, we're all gonna die"
Hey wait a second...

RUE

Thursday, August 16, 2007 11:21 PM

Since Bush took office the DOW's gained 1,000 points from 12,000. http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/quickchart/quickchart.asp?symb=DJIA&s
id=1643&o_symb=DJIA&freq=2&time=13 (That's a measley 8% in 7 years.) But if it had kept up with inflation (using the BLS calculator found here http://www.bls.gov/cpi/home.htm ) it would be at 14,500. So it's actually gone --- backwards.

***************************************************************
"Only 1,500 points to go and I'll be out of the hole."

AURAPTOR

Friday, August 17, 2007 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"And you never did answer my question about how long it took you to find this thread again"

Less than a minute. I know how to do efficient searches.

So to YOU it doesn't matter that the economy is tanking now ? Is that what you're implying ?

The economy isn't 'tanking' now. That's only the talk of scared little people who don't see the big picture.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, August 17, 2007 11:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The economy isn't 'tanking' now. That's only the talk of scared little people who don't see the big picture.

Some people thrive on terror.

Although it is interesting that if Rue is talking about the economy “tanking” that implies that he’s finally come around to the reality that the economy was doing well 16 months ago when this thread started, since the economy can’t tank if it was never doing well to begin with. 16 months from now Rue will realize the economy isn’t “tanking” today.

Maybe that's the problem with Left-wing economic theory? It’s always 16 months behind everyone else.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Friday, August 17, 2007 12:36 PM

Finn, Auraptor- If you look at America's indebtedness you'll that retail spending has been propped up in part by credit cards and home equity loans. Home equity loans have been made easier by (1) increasing home values and (2) "creative" loan practices (exploding loans, interest-only loans etc.) BOTH of those were due to come to a screeching halt the minute the Fed raised interest rates. Also, don't forget that a lot of institutions - banks, insurance companies, annuities, pension funds- have placed money into the real estate sector above and beyond direct loans to homebuyers. We had one of our (AAA-rated) pension funds actually placed in receivership during the LAST real estate crash because they had invested most of their portfolio into commercial real estate. It's possible that some funds will crash and burn in this real estate shakeout.

Just how much this will affect the entire economy depends on how much home equity loans have fueled consumption AND investment in the stock market. I don't have a good "read" on that value.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

RUE

Friday, August 17, 2007 2:31 PM

Finn
You can start out barely awash and tank from there.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

RUE

Friday, August 17, 2007 2:31 PM

Rap

Anything to back up your little opinion ? No, as usual.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

SIGNYM

Friday, August 17, 2007 2:39 PM

I don't know if this belongs in the Legal Tender thread or here, but I never expected the Fed to intervene in the stock market/ liquidity crisis to the tune of half-percent! Yowza! That's unprecedented.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

SIGNYM

Sunday, August 26, 2007 4:23 PM

Fed bends rules to help two big banks
If the Federal Reserve is waiving a fundamental principle in banking regulation, the credit crunch must still be sapping the strength of America's biggest banks. Fortune's Peter Eavis documents an unusual Fed move.

---------------------------------
Saw THAT comin'.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:22 PM

Quote:
Household incomes rise but ...
Census Bureau reports slight rise in 2006 incomes but as a group, households aren't doing as well as before the 2001 recession August 28 2007

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Household income crept higher and the poverty rate edged lower last year, the government said Tuesday, while the number of Americans without health insurance rose by 2.2 million to 47 million people.

Median household income rose 0.7 percent to $48,200, adjusted for inflation, the Census Bureau reported. But more people had to be at work in each household to get there.

That's because median earnings for individuals working full-time year-round actually fell for the third consecutive year. For men, earnings slipped 1.1 percent to a median of $42,300, while for women, earnings sank 1.2 percent to a median of $32,500. The percent of Americans living below the poverty line, meanwhile, slipped to 12.3 percent in 2006, or about 36.5 million people, from 12.6 percent, or 37 million, the year before. The drop in the number of people living in poverty is not a statistically significant change, but the rate of decline is, and while it is the first drop since 2000, the poverty rate is still above the 11.7 percent rate during the last recession in 2001.

Well, Bush's policies are good for somebody but it's not the average American!

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

FLETCH2

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 7:26 PM

So did incomes actually fall in real dollars or in inflation adjusted dollars?

There was an interesting radio program on the psychological underpinnings of economics which said amongst other things that people where far more conscious of loss than gains, so people thought that getting a 3% rise when inflation was at 5% to be better than taking a 2% cut in an economy with 0% inflation.

It would be interesting to know if actual median income actually fell this year, that would be an incredibly important indicator of public confidence, if on the other hand wages failed to keep up with inflation that would not be as informative.

SIGNYM

Friday, August 31, 2007 3:26 PM

Fletch2- your ?? got lost in the shuffle. Needs some research.

Meanwhile, back in Auraptor-land:

I've been watching the housing bubble get bigger and bigger and bigger and...driven by speculation and based on artificially low interest rates. By injecting "phony money" into the economy, as it got bigger it lifted a whole bunch of stuff:

housing sales, construction, home improvement
home equity lines of credit
vehicle sales specifically and retail sales generally
mortgage brokers and banking stocks
stocks in general
employment

Having lived through several housing bubbles, stock bubbles etc. I knew that like all good bubbles, this too would come to a sudden and painful end. And not only would housing prices fall they would take out a whole list of other sectors domino-style. If you were to be able to ask my colleagues at work, you'd know that I've been joking for about a year to get ready to invest in bank stocks because they were going to drop.

Nobody is talking "recession" much less "panic", but the depth of behind-the-scenes worry is indicated by the fact that Bush AND Bernanke look to step in big-time.

Bush to propose subprime plan
http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/31/news/economy/bush_subprime/index.htm?p
ostversion=2007083104
Bernanke: Fed ready to act
http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/31/news/economy/fed_bernanke/index.htm?cn
n=yes

Bernanke has already taken several "unusual" moves, as have the big four banks by borrowing against the Fed in a show of solidarity with Countrywide and the other sub-prime lenders.

All of this just shows that the current economy is a house of cards. The BIG card propping it all up... easy money to consumers... has already fallen.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

RUE

Friday, September 7, 2007 5:52 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/
mortgage_delinquencies;_ylt=AjrETgdM4zIXcqzP9w0SZbis0NUE

New mortgage foreclosures set record

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/
20070907/ap_on_bi_st_ma_re/wall_street;_ylt=AmE6_S9PvYoJd4TtBeSxEAus0NUE

Stocks plunge, bonds up on weak job data

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/
20070907/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/economy;_ylt=ApfhVYNdX2BkDnnuDsiZJAys0NUE

Payrolls drop for first time in 4 years

Oh, and while we're on the topic:
http://www.pollingreport.com/consumer.htm
Interviewing End Date 9/2/07
Consumer Comfort Index -17

Now, who could ever have imagined this ...

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

SIGNYM

Friday, September 7, 2007 7:51 PM

It's like WMD. Some people only see what they want to see....

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, December 31, 2013 1:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It's like WMD. Some people only see what they want to see....

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

I'm wanting to test my new sig, but also amused by what some of the usual posters were saying about the economy back in early 2007. So bump to this old one. Have fun looking through it.

Just keep in mind - everytime Rappy posts, he/it thinks of all the rest of us as marks. Our reaction in all he wants, not any actual communication. Hence nothing he/it says is an honest belief or statement of opinion.

The "Rap" is here only to troll. See http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57146
*------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
MAL4PREZ: Clearly [The Rap]'s doing nothing but trolling now.
STORYMARK: And not even cleverly.
RAPPY: [My trolling] did its job, did it not? Easiest marks in the 'verse.
*---

SHINYGOODGUY

Tuesday, December 31, 2013 1:46 PM

And all this with a Socialist President, King Obama, in charge of the refreshments............funny how that talk has gone the way of the Edsel.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
( Just more fuel for the economy which is on FIRE! )

U.S. Stocks Rise on Verizon Profit; S&P 500 Nears 5-Year High

May 2 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. stocks rose as earnings from Verizon Communications Inc. exceeded analysts' forecasts, easing concern that higher interest rates may curb profit growth. The Standard & Poor's 500 Index reached an almost five-year high.

TXU Corp. led a rebound in utility shares as the largest Texas power producer said profit climbed on higher electricity prices. A drop in Treasury yields also boosted the group.

Emerson Electric Co., the world's biggest maker of power supplies for telecommunications systems, and Archer Daniels Midland Co., the No. 1 grain processor, joined Verizon in reporting results that topped Wall Street's expectations.

``We still keep seeing better-than-expected earnings,'' said Cummins Catherwood, who helps manage $800 million at Walnut Asset Management in Philadelphia. Companies such as Verizon and Emerson are ``posting some impressive stuff. That gives me encouragement about our economy.''

The S&P 500 added 7.46, or 0.6 percent, to 1312.65 at 2:18 p.m. in New York, the highest since May 21, 2001. The Dow Jones Industrial Average rose 74.76, or 0.7 percent, to 11,418.05. The Nasdaq Composite Index gained 5.70, or 0.3 percent, to 2310.49.

Stocks reached their highs in early afternoon trading as Treasury yields fell to their lows on the day and a gain in oil prices lifted energy shares.

Almost two stocks rose for every one that fell on the New York Stock Exchange. Some 1.14 billion shares changed hands on the Big Board, in line with the same time a week ago.

Exceeding Forecasts

Better-than-expected reports have lifted the earnings growth rate for S&P 500 companies in the first quarter to 14.1 percent, from 13.6 percent a week ago, according to Merrill Lynch & Co. chief market analyst Mary Ann Bartels.

Stocks made up most of their declines from a day ago, when remarks attributed to Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke suggested the central bank may not pause its series of 15 straight interest rate increases soon.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SHINYGOODGUY

Tuesday, December 31, 2013 1:51 PM

Ah, finally someone speaking truth......did I hear a rumor that a certain president was a socialist and was "redistributing the wealth" - how soon they forget when the money rolls in.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
You folks are missing the point. The Republicans say the economy is strong, so it is. End of story. Now do as you're told and shut the hell up.

Though, from this Admin's point of view, the economy is strong. Oil companies are raking it in, the rich are getting richer, and to hell with anyone without a yacht.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

SIGNYM

Tuesday, December 31, 2013 11:48 PM

Wow, THAT'S a blast from the past!

Rappy, in 2007, claiming the economy's on fire (or words to that effect). heh heh heh

And despite the fact that he got his ass handed to him on WMD, this topic, Bush's Constitutional violations (he was OK with them then) and torture... he's like a Timex: Takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. Hasn't learned a thing.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Wednesday, January 1, 2014 12:06 AM

My economy is good. I grossed less than 10k this year and still made out with 90 bucks to my name even though my computer, my recently installed sump-pump and a tire on my car all failed in December.

I love my life in my own paid for house.

It's like living in my mom's basement, but without any rules!

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, January 1, 2014 2:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Wow, THAT'S a blast from the past!

Rappy, in 2007, claiming the economy's on fire (or words to that effect). heh heh heh

And despite the fact that he got his ass handed to him on WMD, this topic, Bush's Constitutional violations (he was OK with them then) and torture... he's like a Timex: Takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. Hasn't learned a thing.

I like how you pointed out to him the rot inside the "roaring" economy, the indicators of the crash to come, but he wouldn't hear a word of it. Funny thing, that the ails of the economy could be clearly seen by those who really *looked* in 2007, and yet the RWAs have and will continue to try to blame the crash of fall, 2008 on Obama.

The "Rap" is here only to troll. See http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57146
*------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
MAL4PREZ: Clearly [The Rap]'s doing nothing but trolling now.
STORYMARK: And not even cleverly.
RAPPY: [My trolling] did its job, did it not? Easiest marks in the 'verse.
*---

NIKI2

Wednesday, January 1, 2014 2:08 AM

Thanx for this, Mal4...very educational! I see the "usual suspects" haven't had the guts to show their faces yet...

6IXSTRINGJACK

Wednesday, January 1, 2014 3:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
( Just more fuel for the economy which is on FIRE! )

U.S. Stocks Rise on Verizon Profit; S&P 500 Nears 5-Year High

May 2 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. stocks rose as earnings from Verizon Communications Inc. exceeded analysts' forecasts, easing concern that higher interest rates may curb profit growth. The Standard & Poor's 500 Index reached an almost five-year high.

TXU Corp. led a rebound in utility shares as the largest Texas power producer said profit climbed on higher electricity prices. A drop in Treasury yields also boosted the group.

Emerson Electric Co., the world's biggest maker of power supplies for telecommunications systems, and Archer Daniels Midland Co., the No. 1 grain processor, joined Verizon in reporting results that topped Wall Street's expectations.

``We still keep seeing better-than-expected earnings,'' said Cummins Catherwood, who helps manage $800 million at Walnut Asset Management in Philadelphia. Companies such as Verizon and Emerson are ``posting some impressive stuff. That gives me encouragement about our economy.''

The S&P 500 added 7.46, or 0.6 percent, to 1312.65 at 2:18 p.m. in New York, the highest since May 21, 2001. The Dow Jones Industrial Average rose 74.76, or 0.7 percent, to 11,418.05. The Nasdaq Composite Index gained 5.70, or 0.3 percent, to 2310.49.

Stocks reached their highs in early afternoon trading as Treasury yields fell to their lows on the day and a gain in oil prices lifted energy shares.

Almost two stocks rose for every one that fell on the New York Stock Exchange. Some 1.14 billion shares changed hands on the Big Board, in line with the same time a week ago.

Exceeding Forecasts

Better-than-expected reports have lifted the earnings growth rate for S&P 500 companies in the first quarter to 14.1 percent, from 13.6 percent a week ago, according to Merrill Lynch & Co. chief market analyst Mary Ann Bartels.

Stocks made up most of their declines from a day ago, when remarks attributed to Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke suggested the central bank may not pause its series of 15 straight interest rate increases soon.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

WHATEVER HE SAID = BULLSHIT

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, January 1, 2014 10:46 AM

Hi-larious

JAYNEZTOWN

Saturday, March 18, 2023 3:00 PM

Biden blames bank failures on Trump signing 2018 bill passed with significant Democrat support

https://justthenews.com/government/white-house/biden-blames-bank-failu
res-trump-signing-bill-democrats-voted-2018

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, March 18, 2023 6:01 PM

And is idiot voting base buys it.

--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

SIGNYM

Sunday, March 19, 2023 6:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It shouldn't have taken a brainiac to see THIS coming....
Quote:
MORTGAGE CRISIS OVERHELMING CREDIT COUNSELORS

... Phones at credit counselors across the country are now ringing off the hook. The industrial heartland has been particularly hard-hit. Ohio had the highest number of home foreclosures in 2006, while neighboring Michigan and Indiana -- all sideswiped by the faltering U.S. auto industry -- were close behind.

Housing analysts predict between 1 million and 3 million U.S. homes will be foreclosed upon in 2007. Already a wave of defaults on subprime mortgages held by those with poor credit have caused a crisis in parts of the industry, and some economists believe a recession could result.

"We knew it was going to be bad, but we didn't think it would be this bad," said Britton, echoing many who warned that increasingly exotic mortgage programs -- including those that required no down payment on home purchases --would come back to haunt home buyers.

www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/22/subprime.counselors.reut/index.html

The economy has been running on consumption bouyed by refinancing based on rising home prices based on low interest rates. But if rising interest rates tank aggregate demand, then the economy goes south. The Fed "fix" is to lower interest rates. Which lowers the value of the dollar. SO in areas where the USA is competing internationally for commodities, goods, and services- such as oil, chemicals, and software engineering- then those commodities become relatively more expensive.

Hmmm... I'm glad I invested in foreign currency and gold. It'll be interesting to see who that works out.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

The fundamentals still apply TODAY.

It's not fucking magic, people!

As an aside, one thing that people consnatly conflate is finacialism and "economy".

Just because bubbles are being blown on cheap money doesn't mean "the economy" is doing great. And conversely, just because bubbles are popping doesn't mean the economy is doing poorly. Two separate things. Altho, in THIS country, bc all we have left is financialism, popped bubbles can be catastrophic.

-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, March 19, 2023 7:09 PM

Bring on the deflation.

--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

SIGNYM

Sunday, March 19, 2023 11:18 PM

Economies and finances are tricky things, even if a govenment has control over most of it.

China for example has direct conrol over a fair bit of production through State Owned Enterprises (SOEs). Theoretically, they also control financialism because they have a national bank, the People's Bank of China (PBoC). However, they have many private banks and "shadow banks" that lend money, so they don't have guaranteed control of money-printing (since lenders in effect print money if they lend money that they don't have in their possession i.e. partial reserve banking)

IMHO they made a mistake when they based their economic model on being a net exporter and relied on foreign markets (USA first, then the EU) and foreign investment (ditto).

Well, as interesting as this topic is, for me, I have to get to this later.

-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger

JAYNEZTOWN

Wednesday, December 18, 2024 8:04 PM

Opinion: Californians are sour about economy. Their votes this year reflected it.

https://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/news/2024/12/16/another-voice-d
an-walters-california-economy.html

6IXSTRINGJACK

Wednesday, December 18, 2024 10:45 PM

Last post: March 19th, 2023.

I can see that Jaynes saw my message to Sigs last night and took it to heart.

--------------------------------------------------

"My only fear of death is coming back to this bitch reincarnated." ~Tupac Shakur

JAYNEZTOWN

Thursday, October 23, 2025 10:23 PM

the US hits $38 trillion

US national debt tops $38 trillion for the first time; each American's share exceeds six figures
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/us-national
-debt-tops-38-trillion-for-the-first-time-each-americans-share-exceeds-six-figures/articleshow/124751268.cms

FIRST PAGE PREV PAGE 1 2