Two shows or one? by NumeroCincuentaUno

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Two shows or one?

POSTED BY: NUMEROCINCUENTAUNO
UPDATED: Monday, June 13, 2005 23:43
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Sunday, June 12, 2005 8:08 PM

Here's a topic for debate: Were Buffy and Angel actually two shows, or was Angel simply an extension of the Buffyverse? Yes Angel tended to be darker and more mature in tone, but ultimately in marginal ways. The rather extensive crossovers cemented the relationships. The Firefly ensamble cast offers a contrast to the critically-acclaimed ensemble of Angel S5; which had the most potential for story development?

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Monday, June 13, 2005 12:31 AM

GROUNDED

Two distinct shows, right from the word go.

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Monday, June 13, 2005 2:12 AM

SUBGUY

Technically, two shows, but 'Angel' was a spinoff that would not otherwise have existed without 'Buffy.' And it's all part of the same 'universe' just like DS9 and VOY were all part of the TNG universe, which itself emerged from the ST:TOS even though they were distinctly differant shows.

Captain Pete
"What can Brown do for you?"

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Monday, June 13, 2005 6:03 AM

THEDUKE

Possibly the most interesting question ever posed about the Buffy/Angel world on this site. Or should i say,
Possibly the most interesting question ever posed about the Buffy world on this site or
possibly the most interesting question ever posed about the whedon world of vampires on this site.

I could go on for days like that, but it wud be annoying. My point being that the world is whedons, but we first saw it thru buffy, then he threw angel into a different world with similar rules.

Notice that, a different world with similar rules. The rules weren't really the same for Angel, they tackled things differently "the powers that be" for instance, lot more alternative dimensions.

Sure Angel is spun off Buffy, and owed alot to Buffy at the begining, but it became something much more darker than buffy. I always found watching Angel a difficult thing to do in the end, not because i didn't enjoy it but because of the ways these characters were getting screwed up, don't get me wrong, Buffy characters were screwed up, willow was particularly messed up in the end and i think the less we say about Dawn the better, that's before we even start on the chosen one. But the characters on Angel were worse, Angel is wandering around time trying not tobite people whilst trying to figure out why he's still alive. Fred wud always be mixed up from the time she spent on that place that lorne came from that i can never remember the name of. Cordelia can't really ever become what she longed to be because she has a moral twinge that tells her she'd be neglecting her responsibilty. Wesley is a bit of a loser that really lost his whole way of life when he left sunnydale and you alwasys feel like he's still nto quite hapy not being a watcehr, and his parental issues are always creeping up. Gunn is messed up, he just is. Connor is Connor, i think he speaks for himself. ANyone i missed out, Doyle, i suppose but i haven't seen the season1 fo ages so can't really remember.

Well, now theres an interesting thing for me, because when the other chosen one, the sexy one, the faith one. When she was back in the end of buffy, she was different, and so was angel when he came back. When people who spent a long time in LA came back, they weren't the same as they were before, because the Angel world changed them, and the writers knew this, and they knew that they couldn't just pretend they were the same people, because they weren't. They were bigger, they were harder, tehy were wittier, they had seen greater darkness.

That's the other thing, for me, the darkness on Angel was always evil, at least towards the end. And when i say evil i mean twisted, i mean, "i've just ripped ure liver out and now i'm gonna eat bits of it and feed other bits to my baby" not "i've just unleashed a curse on you thats gnna make ure tonails grow"

The bad guys on Angel were always more powerful, and as in, power within manipulation of people etc. not jsut what they could blow up.

ive ranted for quite a bit now.

and im really not sure the answer to the question, however, watch teh cookie dough scene in Chosen from teh end of buffy and you realise how different the characters have become, it just doesn't really feel right, and thats because of the diffrent paths

We achieved the impossible, and that makes us mighty
The Duke
http://spaces.msn.com/members/hungarydave1986

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Monday, June 13, 2005 6:50 AM

ODDNESS2HER

The two shows were siblings. Distinct individuals, but connected.

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Monday, June 13, 2005 5:21 PM

NUMEROCINCUENTAUNO

I'm glade Duke found the question interesting.

Obviously, they were two different shows, with two different casts, ultimately on two different networks. However, I think a case can be made that they represented two different but related phases of the journey through life (or, life as it exists in Whedon's imagination).

From beginning to end, BUFFY was a growing-up story. Buffy grew from the little blonde (ex) cheerleader, to a leader capable of sacrificing others, and even sacrificing her defining characteristic as the chosen one. In English-major terms, the 6 1/2 seasons of BUFFY constitute a classic bildungsroman (learning story). The story came full circle, to end at the high school where it began, having effectively slain all the demons of childhood.

ANGEL, in contrast, explored what happens after you graduate (and get a job in LA). How do you motivate yourself to get out of bed in the evening after 240+ years? How do you keep on fighting the good fight when evil controls all the power, or you can't even see if it's evil, or you're in charge of it? Angel's defining characteristic is that he basically does not change -- he adapts to different circumstances, but in the end he still wants to slay the dragon mano a mano.

Some additional points: Angel can drop into Sunnydale and function effectively, but Buffy's visits to LA are disasters. Worldly Faith, uncomfortable at best in Sunnydale, had some of her worst and best moments on ANGEL. Spike, channelling trickster myths like Loki (not to mention blessed by James Marsters), ends up working as both good and evil in both worlds (go figure).

FIREFLY incorporated elements of both. Captain Mal is the mature leader getting by day to day. River is the child with limitless potential, if only it can be properly educated and channeled. We can only hope that FIREFLY continues in some form so we can see how Mr. Whedon would play these themes out.

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Monday, June 13, 2005 11:43 PM

THEDUKE

What's interesting about firefly, if we look at it in the whole growing up way, is that these people are growing at different times. In buffy and angel, the majority of the cast were growing at the same time, at similar points, but in Firefly, we're looking at people from different pasts, in different parts of their lives, and that's quite interesting

We achieved the impossible, and that makes us mighty
The Duke
http://spaces.msn.com/members/hungarydave1986

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