OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Riddle me this: Batman vs. Batman Begins- Which do you like better?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 8, 2005 07:08
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VIEWED: 6046
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Sunday, October 23, 2005 10:52 AM

CHRISISALL


Batman Begins was gritty, and dark an' all, however they went way overboard on the psychological stuff for me. Great lines, though, about him not understanding the mind of the villain and such.
But I kinda felt like I was watchin' a James Bond flick at times. The director's good, but the look on that kid's face when his parents got killed in the first film still haunts me; the kid in BB didn't seem as lost and alone. And Alfred in the first had a more father-like relation to Bruce, which I liked. And I liked the disconnected feel Keaton gave to the Batman, as if the costume itself gave him his abilities (in his mind).
Plus: NO ONE will pass Nicholson on the bad-guy-highway.
I dunno, I think it's sometimes a mistake to try to get so super-realistic making a super-hero movie, it's a really fine line to walk.

All in all, a great movie, but still a close 2nd to the first, IMHO.

Chrisisall, with bats in his belfry.

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 11:40 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


No doubt about it in my mind. Batman Begins is the better film.



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Sunday, October 23, 2005 11:47 AM

LADYSHELLEY


Batman Begins by far.

Why?

It's focused on the hero instead of the villain
Christian Bale makes a very convincing Batman
Better set design
Believable villains
Gary Oldman as Gordon


Lady Shelley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.redhawke.org

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 11:49 AM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Batman Begins is the best Batman film, it's the only live action Batman film that's better than Mask of the Phantasm.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 11:51 AM

JOSSISAGOD


Batman Begins, HANDS DOWN! the greatest Batman movie ever! it was a hell of a lot grittier and darker than the original. It really did an excellent job with the Batman back story. I loved it! Christian Bale made Batman what he always should have been.

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 11:57 AM

MEANGOLDFISH


Batman Begins stomps all of the other Batman movies into the ground. In fact, the only thing that it doesn't do a trillion times better than every other Batman movie is, well, Jack Nicholson was an amazing Joker. That aside, Batman begins does everything way, waaaayyy better than the other Batman movies.

even though Christian Bale did overact like crazy while he was Batman

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 12:19 PM

JOSSISAGOD


I completely agree on all counts but one, I don't think Christian Bale over acted when he was Batman, his voice and over all tone and mannerisms changed for good reasons HE WAS BATMAN FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD! NO ONE tops Jack Nicholson as The Joker. of course I could be wrong about Christian I guess I wasn't paying as close attention as you were, meangoldfish.

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 12:28 PM

CALHOUN


I agree Batman Begins was the best Batman film ever!.

I hope they make a sequel with the same cast, crew, writer & director.

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 12:41 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
Batman Begins is the best Batman film, it's the only live action Batman film that's better than Mask of the Phantasm.

That's sayin' a lot.
I rented it tonight, I'll post my review in 24.
I loved the first one; I'm gonna be tough on BB, we'll see...

Chrisisallbatty

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 1:13 PM

RYCE


I actually liked Batman better. I've grown up with it (gotta love the Joker!). I did like Batman Begins' grittiness and showing the origins of Batman, but there's something about the original that just stands out. Maybe it's like in Star Wars: I never liked how things that were supposed to happen in the past had better technology than in the future of a 'verse just because the movie that was sent in the past was made later, so the technology of making the film was better.


No power in the 'verse can stop me!

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Monday, October 24, 2005 6:11 AM

LADYSHELLEY


Quote:

Originally posted by Calhoun:
I agree Batman Begins was the best Batman film ever!.

I hope they make a sequel with the same cast, crew, writer & director.



Sequel has been announced: 2008 Chistain Bale and Michael Caine are signed, David Goyer is listed as one of the writers, no word on a director

Lady Shelley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.redhawke.org

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Monday, October 24, 2005 6:38 AM

CYBERSNARK


I heard Morgan Freeman was going to be back too.

Batman Begins gets my vote as well, though I prefer Michael Gough's Alfred. Caine just seems too. . . casual, I guess. Too relaxed.

OTOH, Caine's version does reflect Alfred's military experience better than Gough.

Y'know, in hindsight, Alfred is a really tough character to get right. . .

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Monday, October 24, 2005 8:33 AM

CHRISISALL


Okay, I saw it.
I put my review up on top with the thread title-post, whatever....

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Monday, October 24, 2005 8:46 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


jossisagod wrote:
Quote:

NO ONE tops Jack Nicholson as The Joker.


Ceasar Romero does

Funnily enough the Batman film was on TV today the one with Adam West, and I gotta say I laughed out loud at most of it!!! That's a bloody funny film!!!!

When Batman on his Bat-copter Bat-rope, plunges into the sea and emerges with a shark attahced to his leg!!!! Furiously fending it off with his other leg, and not getting anywhere so, radio's Robin above, who is flying the chopper, to send down the Anti-Shark Bat-replelant. I almost lost consciousness it was so funny!!! Even better still in the rack of 'Bat repelants' were other anti sprays!!! Namely Whale, Rays, and I think Porpoise!!!!
BLOODY HISTERICAL!!!!!!

Otherwise. Not yet seen the new Batman. Frankly I'm Batman-ed out! Just can't take anymore of the character.

'Tis done put the beast to rest'... I say but I know I'm in a minority with that one.

The
Somnambulist



www.cirqus.com

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Monday, October 24, 2005 8:56 AM

HJERMSTED


Another vote for Batman Begins.

Tim Burton's Batman is a period piece. It worked in 1989 but so much has changed in action films since then. Burton's second effort, Batman Returns, is a bit better but for the most part these films are dreadfully slow moving.

The animated series arrived shortly after Burton's two films and demonstrated what an action-packed, character-driven Batman project should be like.

Before Batman Begins, the best filmed versions of Batman were all animated: the "I am the Knight" and "Almost Got 'im" episodes of the animated series; "World's Finest" (aka The Batman/Superman movie); Batman: Mask of the Phantasm; and the flashback sequence of Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker. If you haven't seen the latter... be sure you do and make sure it's the director's cut!

Batman Begins got the character right and had a great story. I hope WB can get the same creative team for a sequel or two. I think everyone has signed on now except for director Chris Nolan.

mattro

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Monday, October 24, 2005 9:45 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:


Funnily enough the Batman film was on TV today the one with Adam West, and I gotta say I laughed out loud at most of it!!! That's a bloody funny film!!!!


You think that's funny?!!! Batman was almost KILLED by that shark!! If Robin hadn't been able to hand the Anti-Shark Bat Spray to him while hanging upside-down....

And if you thought THAT was funny you should see Batman And Robin; Ahnult ROCKS in that film (though, he's funny in ways that were unintentional, heh heh).

Chrisisabat

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Monday, October 24, 2005 9:52 AM

FRAY101


And as Batman pointed out, remember to spare a thought for that poor shark, who was itself an innocent victim of the Penguin et al!

As for the original question, I loved the Burton films (preferred Batman Returns) and thought Michael Keaton made a great Batman. Having said that, BB is probably my (ducks) favourite film of the year to date and Christian Bale did an amazing job, even if the "Batman voice" grates a little. I know a lot of people didn't like the way the action scenes were directed but I disagree - I thought it worked showing it from the villains' POV. Bring on the sequel (with or without Katie Holmes)!

Still prefer the Danny Elfman score though.

_____________________________________

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Monday, October 24, 2005 10:13 AM

HJERMSTED


Okay, I geeked out a bit and came up with a list. Certain people will appreciate it, I'm sure (you know who you are!)

Batman Appearances off the page (not including toys, video games or mall openings):

Batman (1943, serial)
Batman & Robin (1949, serial)

Batman: The Movie (1966)
Batman (TV series, 1966-1968)

The Batman/Superman Hour (Filmation, 1968)
The Adventures of Batman (Filmation, 1969)
The New Adventures of Batman (Filmation, 1977)
The All-New SuperFriends Hour (Hanna-Barbera, 1977)
Challenge of the SuperFriends (Hanna-Barbera, 1978)
The World's Greatest SuperFriends (Hanna-Barbera, 1979)
SuperFriends: The Legendary Super Powers Show (Hanna-Barbera, 1984)

Batman (1989, dir. by Tim Burton)
Batman Returns (1992, dir. by Tim Burton)

Batman: The Animated Series (1992-1995, prod. by Bruce Timm)
Batman: Mask of the Phantasm (1993, prod. by Bruce Timm)

Batman Forever (1995, dir. by Joel Schumacher)
Batman & Robin (1997, dir. by Joel Schumacher)

Batman Gotham Knights aka the New Batman Adventures (1997-1999, prod. by Bruce Timm)
Batman Superman Movie (1997)
Batman & Mr. Freeze: SubZero (1998)

Batman Beyond: The Movie (1999, prod. by Bruce Timm)
Batman Beyond (1999-2001, prod. by Bruce Timm)
Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker (2000, prod. by Bruce Timm)

Justice League aka Justice League Unlimited (2001-present, prod. by Bruce Timm)

Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman (2003)

The Batman (2004-present, prod. by Jeff Matsuda)

Batman Begins (2005, dir. by Christopher Nolan)

The Batman vs. Dracula (2005, prod. by Jeff Matsuda)




Batman animated guest appearances:
Scooby Doo Where Are You? (Filmation, 1972)
Superman: The Animated Series (1996-2000, Timm)
Static Shock (2000-2004)


I'm sure I've missed some, so add them to the list if you've got 'em!

mattro

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Monday, October 24, 2005 10:14 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by fray101:


Still prefer the Danny Elfman score though.


I agree.
And I would usually pick Zimmer over Elfman most any Day, but Batman was one of hs GREATEST scores!!!

Chrisisall

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Monday, October 24, 2005 11:26 AM

STILLSHINY


I loved it but I hated Katie Holmes contribution. Now FBF & I are major fans of Dawson's Creek (first season only) so it's not that I don't think well of Katie. I just felt that her part was more focused as "big star" & for the benefit of the "male" audience. I being male, did not find this kind of focus (and at times I literally mean focus, was it really that cold?) necessary to the story of the film.

"We had ties that could not be broken, except by the passing of time. Like a rock. A broken time rock. And you're very special to me, my broken time rock people." - Nathan Fillion

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Monday, October 24, 2005 11:43 AM

SEP7IMUS


Burton's Batman defintetly gets my vote over Batman Begins.

The visuals (set design, etc.) were way cooler. The whole look of the movie was roiginal, and it created a trend in films that followed. Plus, I really dont' agree about it being dated, now.

The plot was better. I like a bildungsroman as much as the next guy, but the origin story told in flashback in Batman was just as effective for me.

I love Danny Elfman.

Watch Batman Begins again. Watch the fight scenes. Mostly, you can't see a damn thing. It's all blurry and up close (visually it mimics the swarm of bats... okay I get it... but it's no fun to watch).

Jack Nicholson, of course.

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Monday, October 24, 2005 11:43 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Originally posted by chrisisall:


You think that's funny?!!! Batman was almost KILLED by that shark!! If Robin hadn't been able to hand the Anti-Shark Bat Spray to him while hanging upside-down....]


Yeah I think at this point I was on the sofa in tears and not really taking in anything else. I tell ya Chrisisall when Batman came outa the sea with that shark attached to his leg I was done for!!!! It was just NOT what I was expecting!!!!! I was, alltogether, in another laughter zone....

It'll be one of those cinematic images that'll never leave me Absolute genius!!!!!

The
Somnambulist



www.cirqus.com

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Monday, October 24, 2005 11:59 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Originally posted by fray101:
Quote:

And as Batman pointed out, remember to spare a thought for that poor shark, who was itself an innocent victim of the Penguin et al!


Oh so true Fray101. It's touches like this that had me in fits of laughter. They didn't miss a beat!!!!

Quote:


As for the original question, I loved the Burton films (preferred Batman Returns) and thought Michael Keaton made a great Batman.



Agreed I loved Batman Returns . It's delightfully odd and twisted and Michelle Pfeifer was fabulous!!! and Devito was totally absorbed into the character of the Penguin and played it with just the right amount of Pathos and villany!!!!

Quote:


Still prefer the Danny Elfman score though.



I haven't heard the new films score, but I had to say I loved The Danny Elfman score!!!! It's just a few notches down on the Jaws score for being synonymous with it's film. The opening is powerful stuff!!!!

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Monday, October 24, 2005 12:09 PM

DATALESS


Batman Begins is better because it's the only batman movie about batman.

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Monday, October 24, 2005 12:20 PM

TMURRIE


Ever since I saw Christian Bale in Equilibrium, I was hoping against all hope that he would make it big, because he was such a good actor. Then BAM, Batman Begins comes in a steals the show.

But personally, I think George Clooney was the greatest Batman that has ever lived....

just kidding!

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Monday, October 24, 2005 12:20 PM

STRAYBAT


Quote:

Originally posted by jossisagod:
NO ONE tops Jack Nicholson as The Joker.



Not so. I know it's only voice acting, but Mark Hamill in the animated series nailed the joker far, far better.

Have to confess, I was very disappointed in Batman. It just didn't feel ... real.

I did love Batman Returns. It didn't feel real either, and it had all the stupid stuff with the penguins, but it had five things that Batman didn't.

Michelle Pfeiffer.
Christopher Walken.
Michelle Pfeiffer
Danny Devito
Michelle Pfeiffer

Batman Begins though - I loved it. It *did* feel real, and I thought it was far and away the best Batman film. The only things needed to make it better were... better fight scenes (I hate the modern cut/cut/cut/cut frenzy where you can't see what's going on) - and for the second half to equal the first (the second half was good, but the first half was stunning - wrong way round)

Wonder what Joss would do with a Batman film?


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Monday, October 24, 2005 12:46 PM

BATMARLOWE


Somedays you just can't get rid of a bomb.

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Monday, October 24, 2005 12:58 PM

RIGHTEOUS9




If I had to pick one over the other, I would say
Batman Begins, without hesitation.

But I loved both. One is the better movie...the other, the better spectacle.

Burton's Batman was amazing spectacle. Massive gothic buildings, coreographed fight scenes, an over the top joker...all great stuff. Quite a work of art.

Batman Begins was the better story..., the deeper, more politacal, more philosophical, work of drama.

I don't at all agree that the fight scenes should have been easier to follow. The purpose of a movie that isn't riding on spectacle, is to fill the audience with a sensation. The fight scenes in batman begins are supposed to do what they do...foster confusion, chaos, the sense of a force coming and going out of nowhere...etc.

As to the score, I think a spectacle needs a score like elfman's...I think a story needs one like that of Batman Begins...I liked both for what they did. Same goes for set...they were both incredible...one in a real and depressing way, one in an extravagant monstrously huge and gothic way.


I loved Christian Bale's over-the-top moments as Batman...I thought they conveyed a man still developing his alter-ego, and maybe going a little overboard, because he hadn't quite honed it.

And I'm surprised that everyone disliked Katy Holmes part. Where Kim Basinger and Nicole Kidman were empty eye candy parts, Katy Holme's character had some of the most significant lines in the movie, and her influence on what Bruce Wayne becomes is not vague or simplistic. I would go so far as to say she is a role model for him...that's far more than being one of the typical superhero cheerleaders that female parts tend to offer in hollywood.


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Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:57 AM

STRAYBAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:
I don't at all agree that the fight scenes should have been easier to follow. The purpose of a movie that isn't riding on spectacle, is to fill the audience with a sensation. The fight scenes in batman begins are supposed to do what they do...foster confusion, chaos, the sense of a force coming and going out of nowhere...etc.


Oh - some of the fights I loved. Where you first saw Batman in action, for example, it was reminiscent of a horror movie - with Batman as the spooky creature picking off characters one by one - that was amazing. But the final fight with Ras Al Ghul, for example - I had no clue what was happening, who was hitting whom, who was standing, who was falling over, what the *&(@&£( was going on. And I do not hold with that

Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:
And I'm surprised that everyone disliked Katy Holmes part.



Me too. I thought she was very good.

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Tuesday, October 25, 2005 10:37 AM

CYBERSNARK


A few years ago, there was talk of a live-action Batman Beyond movie. That woulda' rocked.

I forgot to mention another point in favour of Batman Begins; I think I'm in love with the new Batmobile.

Yeah, it's like the love-child of a monster truck and a tank, but it's just so effective. That highway chase, where it effectively cloaks. . . It's as ominous and terrifying as Batman himself.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Monday, November 7, 2005 8:30 PM

JUTIN


Batman Begins was very typical of what Hollywood is doing nowadays; big explosions, CGI backdrops and story and character arcs so basic that the whole film was just utterly predictable... I've gotta give props to the guy that played The Scarecrow, he really tried to save the film with his fine acting. But Christian Bale and Katie Holmes were there just acting like they were in a middle school play. I would love to complain about the explosion and action filled finale to the film, but I can't seem to remember what happened. Reminded me of a Jerry Bruckheimer film.

Tim Burton's Batman and Batman Returns are excellenet films with much deeper character development (kudos Sam Hamm and the other guy that wrote those two films) and far more believable action.

If we stop seeing films like Batman Begins and Star Wars epIII... they will stop making them... in theory... hopefully... I think I'll move to England.

PS- you guys keep quoting one of my favorite shows, Greg The Bunny, saying that the CGI buildings look more real than the ones that were actually real. great stuff!

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Monday, November 7, 2005 9:07 PM

RIVER6213


Batman begins was the best.

*EXTRA*
Billionar Gets Drunk and Burns Mansion Down...

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Tuesday, November 8, 2005 12:56 AM

WHEDONFANUK


Batman (1989 bliss)

Tim Burton classic 'Nuff Said'

:: WhedonFanUk ::

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Tuesday, November 8, 2005 4:11 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by JuTin:
I would love to complain about the explosion and action filled finale to the film, but I can't seem to remember what happened. Reminded me of a Jerry Bruckheimer film.

LOL, EXACTLY!!!
There was a really great film in there, underneath all that excess.

DO I LOOK LIKE A COP??!!
Please, B, subtle works too...

You made me first Chrisisall

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Tuesday, November 8, 2005 5:54 AM

TOMANTA


I've always had a special love for the '89 Batman.

Until I got the special edition of DVD when I picked up the DVD of Batman Begins.

Batman Begins is damn near perfect for a Batman film. Had they put in Harvey Dent and shifted some of Holmes' parts to him it would have been perfect.

Watching the '89 version again it just feels... cheesy. Jack as the Joker is brilliant and definitely steals the show. The look of the city is very nice, very dark and gothic like it should be.

But overall it doesn't feel like Batman to me anymore, and it feels dated. The costume is bad, it has the obligatory pop song (though the Elfman score is brilliant), they messed up the origin (Putting the Joker as the killer of Bruce's parents is just BAD. Batman's early relationship with Gordan and Dent WRONG).

The '89 version has its good moments. Quite a lot of them. But it ultimately just feels dated and inferior to Batman Begins.

I haven't seen Batman Returns in a LONG time, but don't have fond memories of it. I didn't care that much for Batman Forever and that other one should not even be mentioned.

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."

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Tuesday, November 8, 2005 6:38 AM

20THCENTFOXHATER


Batman Begins by far. Batman may have been good in its time, but it feels dated and corny now. Especially being that the Joker had a bigger part than Batman, even though it was supposed to be a movie about Batman.

"I aim to misbehave."

"This must be what going insane feels like."

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Tuesday, November 8, 2005 6:51 AM

CHRISISALL


I respectfully submit that the extensive cgi (especially the flying by Batman) looks dated (we've come so far in cgi since that was made) and corny (nothing beats a set, even a small one).

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, November 8, 2005 7:08 AM

STORYMARK


Uh, if you're talking about Batman '89, there was no CGI. Though it had techniclly been invented, it was not in frequent use in hollywood. That was all old school miniature and matte painting work.

"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."

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