FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

The unknown Book

POSTED BY: SLAYEROFABEL
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 00:14
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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:18 PM

SLAYEROFABEL


watch the episodes safe and objects in space the watch the movie and if you want look how book takes out the fed in serenity. But am i the only one that thinks book may have been an aliance opritave and asassin? Realy i have been thinking this for years plz let me know your thoughts

Keeper of the secret truths

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Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:46 PM

PIRATECAT


Most of the time I have filthy man thoughts but on this subject I'll tell ya what I think. It's been discussed and rehashed. I believed the way you do but after hearing all the arguements Book is a Federal Marshall. Knowing alot about crime and jurisdictions. An agent would't need to know that much about it. He also has seen agents work or crossed paths with them before. Kinda like an FBI man crossing path with CIA and other agencies. But who really knows for sure.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:42 AM

SLAYEROFABEL


There no way he is a fed or he would have had the bound long befor. He had plenty to have them put away for life. And he would have not fought so hard to free a man let mel when nishka had him. To turn his life over to god like he did he would have had to have real demonds to fight. and in the episode serenity the striks which he use i know my self that was kung fu strikes and way above what a fed would have. Those where strikes that only a killing machen would know some one like the operitive from the movie has. With skills like that if he were a fed he would have been tapped long befor to be an operitive.

Keeper of the secret truths

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:47 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


The 2 most common questions that get tossed around here are:

1. What is Inara's secret?
and
2. What is Book's secret?

My answer for Book is always this: He was an operative during the Unification War. His guilt over past deeds was so intense that he felt he needed to "Be out of the world a spell" just as he states to Kaylee in the Eavestown Docks.

The line that goes over everyones heads is in the pilot episode when the Barker for the starship Brutus calls him Grampa and his response is "I never married" While being a shepard and not being married certainly makes sense, the truth to his statement is that ne never married because he was an operative. The priesthood came later.

A final note: I think that had Firefly continued, tension would have developed twixt Book and Mal/Zoe. I think that somewhere Mal would have learned something about a thing Book did during the war that led to the deaths of many Browncoats.

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:51 AM

RIVERLOVE


I always like the subject of Book when it come up here. Based on River's mental delving into his mind in "Objects In Space", I've always said that I think Book was an Alliance interrogator. Not a kind or gentle man, but basically a brute who did the dirty work for the Alliance, gathering information for them from captured enemies and such. Operatives were merely assassins, but the Alliance interrogators like Book were much more sophisticated and subtle. He oversaw the interrogations, possibly even violently, of enemies of the state, then at some point in his life he had a epithany, and saw the light of goodness and rightousness. How he got away from them is another story.

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:59 AM

BYTEMITE


In Objects in Space, at least until River stumbles upon Zoë and Wash on the bridge, the thoughts she'd been encountering all revolved around her and were in some way frightening or negative.

The way Simon thinks about how he could still be on Osirius (if it weren't for River), Jayne thinking about his mistake on Ariel that nearly got him killed... In that line, Book is thinking about River too... And that is very, very scary.

My thinking is Book is retired special forces from a branch of the Alliance competing against the Blue Sun corruption in parliament. That scene suggests to me that he's on Serenity to watch, guide, and maybe even teach River.

Of course, he does use a sword in the comic book Better Days... Like a certain Operative.

Yay for A Shepard's Tale coming out soon. :)

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 11:00 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Operatives were merely assassins,



Oh, no.
no no no

Operatives are the top of the heap. More than just simple assassins, they represent the tip of physical and mental conditioning. The Operative in the film is far more than just an assassin. He's a thinker and a war leader. He's a diplomat. He's a philosopher. AND he's a killer. The Blue Sun scientist "Dr. Mathasis" knew exactly the supreme power that accompanies an operative when he entered the archives in a huff. The moment the scanner told him who he was facing his immediate response was to politely say: "Of couse an Operative of the Parliment will be granted full access"

Book has a supremely mysterous past. He never married simply becasue, like the Operative from the film, he didn't exist.

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:18 PM

SLAYEROFABEL


yes yes yes an operative is far more they are interigators bouty hunter and asassins. Think about the way the early in objects in spacew was to talk in a fasion like that to a man when know that you are liable to kill him lets you get in his brain and walk around a bit. with out the benifit of powers like rivers. now some on ecsplain how you know book was thinking about river when he is talking about and to jain seems to me that what he was thinking fit better to the uter contempt felt for jain by wnyone who met him. pluss when some one was thinking about river jos had then face the cammera like they were talking to her. yet book was looking tword jain. idk just my thoughts

Keeper of the secret truths

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:56 PM

BYTEMITE


We don't know that Book was still looking towards Jayne, although I guess I could watch the scene closely and try to take visual cues for where Book is looking when River reads him. All I know is that Jayne was in the kitchen/preparation area, and Book is kind of by the table.

It's not necessarily true that when River is listening to someone's thoughts, she sees them looking towards who they're thinking about. For example, Objects in Space again, when River is listening in on Inara and Mal. When River reads Inara, she looks at River, but it seems pretty obvious to me that her thoughts are directed towards Mal. I could be wrong, but Inara wouldn't think that towards River unless you believe there's femslash there.

Who Book is thinking about and the context of his thoughts are deliberately kept secret, so no, I don't know that he's thinking about River. But I have three reasons for why he might have been.

1) I don't think Book is thinking about Jayne. "I don't give a hump if you're innocent or not" is a statement that only makes sense if someone is or is claiming to be innocent. Jayne is not innocent, nor in their actual conversation is Jayne defending his innocence.

2) River's the only other person in the room.

3) Considering what she picked up previously from Simon and Jayne, I made an extrapolation that Book is thinking about River also. It's pattern recognition.

Of course, it's also entirely possible that River wasn't picking up their surfacemost thoughts, but rather memories or thoughts that are unrelated to what is currently happening. If that's the case, there's no easy way to interpret what River picks up, except for Jayne, because we recognize it.

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 2:18 PM

SLAYEROFABEL


watch the seen befor you coment simon is looking at kaylee then when he is thinking he fases the camera. jain is talking to book looking at the counter and what hes wooking on then as he thinks about river and looks to the camera and says im sorry i got geedy the money was to good then back to the counter. book could tell by the convo with jain he was seeking some form of forgivness for something and as river read his he just keppt looking the same diretion as befor. Joss's directing stile is to convay way more of the meening with the seen its self then the lines. His stile is like a beautiful poem or painting. The actores convay way more in there movment stance and the filming stile of the seen mixed with all ways a perfect music score. Every episode is a beautiful painting worthy of hanging next to the monalisa.

Keeper of the secret truths

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 3:20 PM

SLAYEROFABEL


oh yah and in the imortal words of kirt coobain.
Hes the one who likes all our pretty song and he likes to sing along and he likes to shoot his gun but he dont know what it means. so just strike a poser

Keeper of the secret truths

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 3:22 PM

BYTEMITE


>_>

I have seen it.

Anyway, like I said, it's just an interpretation. Jayne isn't in the frame with Book when you get that close up and River's reading, so I can't tell for certain if Book is still looking at Jayne. If Book isn't looking at Jayne, he could be looking at River. Or maybe he's not looking at anyone.

And maybe looking at someone doesn't mean they're thinking at someone. There's a lot of ways to interpret it.

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 3:50 PM

SLAYEROFABEL


to interperate you need to first see what has been done befor. every time the camra was used as river throught her eyes why when as you say book is thinking about her is he the only one to not look diretly at the camera. you take all things at face value and refuse to look at the art form its self. you prob dont even get the way that every thing in all the episodes the lines and the music and the movment and stance of the actors iare all seperate strokes of the brush. you just sit back and look at the hole painting never stepping in to look at all the strokes that make the beauty of it i weep for you never being able to truly understand. I will cry crocodile tears for you

Keeper of the secret truths

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:13 PM

BYTEMITE


Art can have multiple interpretations. That's why it's art; someone can paint a picture, but it's the viewer that gives it meaning, purpose, emotion. I won't make any assumptions about what Joss Whedon was trying to show, because I am not Joss Whedon. I'm merely offering an alternative take on the same scenes you're discussing, and I have admitted I have no way of knowing whether they are THE TRUTH (capitalized) or not.

And there is no reason to go personal with your arguments. I haven't done so towards you. We disagree. That's fine. You needn't worry about my aesthetic sensibilities just because we don't view something the same way. Both of our perspectives may be valid.


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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:27 PM

SLAYEROFABEL


when you watch it next time take it all into consideration. and we all have our OWN opinions. but you seem to have the ability to see as deep as a tea cup. but THE TRUTH is only joss knows for sure do ecsplain how the line " i dont give two humps if your inosent or not so where dose that leve you" aply only to river so hope you can clear that up for seeing you truth seem to be so much more astute then mine?

Keeper of the secret truths

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Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:34 PM

BYTEMITE


I never said my "truth" was. I've even said that it might not be the truth.

I don't like tea, can it be soda? Wait, no, that's bad for me.

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Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:00 AM

STAPLES


You can find out what his secret is in a couple months when the comic book mini-series "A Shepherd's Tale" comes out.

I've decided to stop racking my brain about Book, if all I have to do is wait. Now my mind turns toward Inara's past...

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Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:50 AM

DESERTGIRL


Does anyone know exactly when "A Shepard's Tale" is going to come out???

Everything I read says late 2008, well that was last month and still no comics.

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Monday, December 22, 2008 1:07 PM

STAPLES


To my knowledge it was delayed (just like "Better Days"). No one has said exactly when it's supposed to come out, but I think I read somehere that it's supposed to come out around late March.


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Monday, December 22, 2008 8:42 PM

DESERTGIRL


cool -thanks for the info, I'll go bug our local comic store around March and see what happens.

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Tuesday, December 23, 2008 6:34 AM

LEEDAVIDT


ok...book may or may not have been an operative for the alliance...but i do believe he may have been a diplomat or an ambassador at one time being gracious on learning of inara (an ambassador),not knowing at the time she was a companion...but maybe book was an operative...like in serenity the operative said:

Mal: They take you down, I don't expect to grieve overmuch. Like to kill you myself, I see you again.
The Operative: You won't.( There is nothing left to see.)

maybe the operative,like book ceased being a killer and found a different path through the verse...but...it's all speculation
keep flyin'

http://www.myspace.com/leedavidt

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:38 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by leedavidt:

The Operative: You won't.( There is nothing left to see.)



The implication Joss was going for in this statement was that the operative left to go fall on his sword. His statement to Dr. Mathais earlier in the film was that in older times, men would fall on their swords when they failed supremely and completely.

The broadwave of the Reaver Truth was an ultimate failure.

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:53 AM

LEEDAVIDT


i didn't see that...makes sense...thanks for the info

The Operative: Do you know what your sin is, Doctor?
Dr. Mathias: I wonder if...
The Operative: It's pride.

The Operative: Key members of Parliament. Key. The minds behind every military, diplomatic and covert operation in the galaxy, and you put them in a room with a psychic.

The Operative: You know, in certain older civilized cultures, when men failed as entirely as you have, they would throw themselves on their swords.
Dr. Mathias: Well, unfortunately, I forgot to bring a sword. I would put that down right now if I were you.
The Operative: Would you be killed in your sleep, like an ailing pet?



http://www.myspace.com/leedavidt

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Thursday, January 1, 2009 3:34 PM

NCBROWNCOAT


I'm wondering if there's another way for the Operative to "fall on his own sword"?

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Friday, February 27, 2009 3:32 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
I always like the subject of Book when it come up here. Based on River's mental delving into his mind in "Objects In Space", I've always said that I think Book was an Alliance interrogator. Not a kind or gentle man, but basically a brute who did the dirty work for the Alliance, gathering information for them from captured enemies and such. Operatives were merely assassins, but the Alliance interrogators like Book were much more sophisticated and subtle. He oversaw the interrogations, possibly even violently, of enemies of the state, then at some point in his life he had a epithany, and saw the light of goodness and rightousness. How he got away from them is another story.




I have said this since day 1. Not only was book an operative, I believe he still is. As you say, in OIS, River reads him.His exact words "I dont care whether you are guilty or innocent. So where does that leave you". Go to the BDM and it mirrors the attitude of the operative.He doesnt care what the secrets are, he just knows that they have to be kept.I think Book is there at the behest of the alliance and is deep deep deep undercover. The hands of blue dont even know about him. Whether we would have seen him ultimately turn River in to the authorities or whether he would have had a real epiphany we will never know, but I am certain that he was there to track River and see what she was capable of. In the film he was obviously the good guy, but I presume all of what I have said was supposed to have been played out by this time.

Peacekeeper-----keeping order in every verse

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:22 AM

KAOSIUM


Is there a canonical reference that I missed that would suggest Book was an ex-operative? It doesn't fit at all with the Book we saw in the series and it was directly contradicted by Ron Glass who said Joss told him to say he was a "dirty cop" when asked at conventions. Where on Earth is there anything that actually suggests he might have been an operative of the Parliament at any time?

The operative had elite hand-to-hand combat training, and while Book obviously had some, he was also taken out quite quickly by both Dobson and Early, which certainly suggests he wasn't elite. The stuff he seemed to know about were all sort of things an ex-cop would know, not an operative. How to identify command tags, pursuit procedures, how to read a crime scene and conclude it was sharpshooters with sniper rifles. I don't think some realize that when he spoke to Mal on Haven, Book turned out to be wrong on every single particular and paid for his life with it. It *did* turn out to be a 'palms up military run' as the ruins of Haven and the fact eventually half the Alliance fleet was after that one tiny firefly should show. Also the Operative may have 'believed hard' but not so much he couldn't change his mind and let Mal and Co. go after patching them up.

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Tuesday, August 4, 2009 1:22 PM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


I refuse to believe that Book was just a dirty cop.Surely,just being a cop doesn't give you full access to Alliance medical facilities in double quick time. He MUST have had higher clearance that that.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

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Friday, August 14, 2009 7:09 PM

MEATPUPPET42


The key is the ID card to get that treatment he was or still is high military. My guess he is a retired admiral, general or an operative but has seen too much blood so became a shepherd. This also explains his knowledge of the alliance and weapons. Also when he is over the 3 dead bodies describing how they where killed in the beginning of war stories he is at a ready position, like a navy seal would.

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Friday, August 14, 2009 11:29 PM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Quote:

Originally posted by meatpuppet42:
The key is the ID card to get that treatment he was or still is high military. My guess he is a retired admiral, general or an operative but has seen too much blood so became a shepherd. This also explains his knowledge of the alliance and weapons. Also when he is over the 3 dead bodies describing how they where killed in the beginning of war stories he is at a ready position, like a navy seal would.

Actually Meat,now you've said that,your theory makes more sense to me than my own.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

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Saturday, August 15, 2009 1:56 AM

MEATPUPPET42


Book is not a active operative, I think he wants to forget his past and truly become a shepherd. There are many examples but the best one I like is in our Ms.Reynolds telling mal about the special hell or if he did not care he could just let mal bang her.

I love it, It's like wiping your ass with silk.

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Saturday, August 15, 2009 1:56 AM

MEATPUPPET42



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Saturday, August 15, 2009 1:54 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Your post made me think. I, too, had assumed he had high clearance and got sick of it all and went to the monestary, but you're right, he wasn't of the Operator's or Early's quality of training.

I assume we'll never know, but that puts a different color on it for me at least. It's possible, having been with monks for so long, he'd "lost his touch", and it's difficult reconciling his treatment when injured with a lower rank, but there is a problem with thinking of him in terms of the Operative or Early.

I don't see how he could be an operative for other than the Alliance to watch over River; we're not shown that he knew Simon was already on Serenity when he joined...or even if he WAS.

Just gets more and more difficult to guess Joss' mind, doesn't it? Sneaky little bugger...

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Saturday, August 15, 2009 10:29 PM

PATCHIST


I agree with meat that he maybe a retired something of the alliance then chose to become a Sheppard. But he still has special clearances in the Alliance, hence, his ID from that episode where he got shot.

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Sunday, August 16, 2009 12:45 PM

MEATPUPPET42


Book was on board first there is no way he is following the tams.

I like the talk he had with Simon in the beginning of war stories trying to understand why they did this to river. Gives him a reason to fight/protect river.

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Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:00 PM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Quote:

Originally posted by meatpuppet42:
Book was on board first there is no way he is following the tams.

I like the talk he had with Simon in the beginning of war stories trying to understand why they did this to river. Gives him a reason to fight/protect river.

I tend to agree.I find myself debunking my own theory.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

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Sunday, August 16, 2009 5:17 PM

PATCHIST


Quote:

Originally posted by meatpuppet42:
Book was on board first there is no way he is following the tams.



I realized that yesterday while taking a shower.

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Friday, December 3, 2010 7:33 PM

SLAYEROFABEL


The line " You wont There is nothing left to see" has nothing to do with the right of Seppuku. If he were to fall on his sword he would have as soon as he was free. Not patched serenity according to tradition he must now wonder as an outcast until he can die in battle and have a beautiful death with the honer he lost fighting for the true enemy. His obsession with eastern philosophy would lead him to know there would be no honer in that death he must first redeem him self. And for the love of god I hate you fan boys quoting the movie you saw the movie then downloaded the show. I hate you numb nut where were you when we were trying to petition fox to bring it back. fan boys fuck you. After a year of watching the show and movie over and over and over I'm talking about i ripped my box set and burned it to 3 dvds with no menus so it would just repeat after fully playing through and would just play the next episode I know im not the only one who hates that about the box set. I have come to a different theory. I think he may have been a Higher up im the military or part of parliament its self. The id is what has me not think he was an operative any more he would have no name nor a rank. But the way he was givin a five star patch up and the never searched the ship shows me his real name carrys a lot of respect. An operative would only be known to those before he takes your life

Keeper of the secret truths.
Never underestimate the power of really stupid people in large numbers.

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Saturday, December 4, 2010 9:10 AM

PENNAUSAMIKE


Quote:

Originally posted by slayerofabel:

SNIP

And for the love of god I hate you fan boys quoting the movie you saw the movie then downloaded the show. I hate you numb nut where were you when we were trying to petition fox to bring it back. fan boys fuck you. After a year of watching the show and movie over and over and over

SNIP

I have come to a different theory. I think he may have been a Higher up im the military or part of parliament its self. The id is what has me not think he was an operative any more he would have no name nor a rank. But the way he was givin a five star patch up and the never searched the ship shows me his real name carrys a lot of respect. An operative would only be known to those before he takes your life

Keeper of the secret truths.
Never underestimate the power of really stupid people in large numbers.



There is a comic book out called "The Shepherd's Tale" that explains Book's backstory.

For someone who hates folks who are "late to the party",
you're a little late to this party yourself.
"The Shepherd's Tale has been out for a little bit, now.
Written by Joss and Zack Whedon, it's as canon as you can get...

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Tuesday, December 14, 2010 11:58 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by slayerofabel:
am i the only one that thinks book may have been an aliance opritave and asassin?



That's my suspicion too...that he was at least an Alliance agent of some sort. He knows too much about that world, about criminal enterprises, weapons, he has a high level ident card which affords him special treatment by the Alliance. Whenever there is violence afoot he behaves very un-preacherly...ie. he takes care of business.

I think Book was some sort of Alliance agent who one day saw or was forced to do something in the line of duty that shocked his conscience. He renounced that life and sought refuge and to change his life at the abbey, and thus became Shepperd Book.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 12:14 AM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by slayerofabel:
And for the love of god I hate you fan boys quoting the movie you saw the movie then downloaded the show. I hate you numb nut where were you when we were trying to petition fox to bring it back. fan boys fuck you.



I think you are being unfair here.

I just discovered Firefly and Serenity on Netflix, then bought both, which helps the cause a little. We stopped getting cable about the time the series came out and quite simply didn't know about it. If I had I would have joined the drive to see it continue. I would have worked to get the movie seen. But you can't help what you don't know about. It was FOX not us newbies that canceled the show. Thus your anger is misplaced. New people finding and appreciating the show is what will keep the 'Verse alive.

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Mon, November 29, 2021 20:47 - 41 posts
Firefly Honest Trailer
Sat, October 3, 2020 16:39 - 7 posts
Itinerary for Serenity during the 9 months of Firefly/Serenity.
Thu, June 20, 2019 20:39 - 21 posts
Map of the Verse discussion
Tue, June 4, 2019 20:51 - 170 posts
The Savant Crew
Wed, May 15, 2019 13:47 - 32 posts
Who Was Your Favorite Friend of Our BDH?
Wed, April 24, 2019 00:26 - 3 posts
Everything Wrong with “The Train Job”
Wed, February 6, 2019 18:20 - 4 posts
Where is the location for the scene at the end of "Trash"
Mon, December 24, 2018 23:42 - 4 posts
Christmastime
Mon, December 24, 2018 13:48 - 1 posts
"Mal, bad... in the Latin" what does it mean?
Sun, August 5, 2018 23:02 - 31 posts

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