GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Objects in Space Inner Thoughts

POSTED BY: EST120
UPDATED: Monday, August 2, 2004 02:53
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 6419
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Monday, May 3, 2004 3:05 AM

EST120


I was reading another thread on the board and it occurred to me that I have really no idea what some of the scenes from this episode mean. In particular, I am referring to the beginning when River is walking through the ship and hearing other crew member's thoughts. I understand that Jayne says about the money being too good and Simon about being in the hospital, but what really confuses me is what Book says, what Mal says and what Inara says. Any thoughts? Also, if you consider this episode to be the last episode of the series, then the subplot of Inara leaving the ship is not really resolved. Any more thoughts on how or if this will be handled in the movie?


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Monday, May 3, 2004 4:54 AM

BLACKEYEDGIRL


Now I'd love to help you out, but for the life of me I can't find a script for Objects in Space (if you know where to find one I am pretty sure Ic an offer you some clarity on this episode), to refrence back to for those lines and their provenance. I'll dig around (BTW why is this the only missing script in the Features section? Someone ought to get right on this!).

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Monday, May 3, 2004 5:13 AM

JUMPY


Yeh i know what you mean it is kinda confusing.

well here's what they say basically

Book - I don’t give half a hump whether you're innocent or not. So where does that put you?

Inara - I'm a big girl just tell me

Mal - None of it means a damn thing

Well Book and Mal I really don't know. Inara I always figured was telling Mal to say how he feels or something like that. But that hasn't really got anything to do with River so then again probably not.

Mercy is the mark of a great man…*stab*…I guess I'm just a good man…*stab*…Well, I'm alright.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 5:27 AM

EST120


I am not sure all the comments have something to do directly with River, but it is possible. What Jayne and Simon say kind of make me think all the comments have something to do with each person's innermost secret or regret. Along the same line, is this partly why River does not hear anything from Kaylee because she is more innocent than the rest?

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Monday, May 3, 2004 5:35 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG


Book's is some sort of reference to his dubious past, though I have no idea what.

Mal's I assume is his general apathy and uncaring about anything but his crew. He's lost all his idealism.

I'm almost certain Inara's comment is because she's dying, and it's a reference to a hospital conversation. Something along the lines of:

Doctor: There's... we found something on the scan, you're...

Inara: I'm a big girl, just tell me.

Doctor: You're dying Inara...



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Monday, May 3, 2004 5:38 AM

WYDRAZ


River is just picking up the crew's thoughts. I don't think any of the thoughts she read concerned River directly.

Book's inner words were directed towards Jayne, revealing how much he disdains Jayne's lack of ethics on the inside but remains cordial to the loveable thug on the outside.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 5:43 AM

CYBERSNARK


I think Mal's is kinda obvious.

He joined the Independents because he believed in it. It was something grand, something bigger than any one man or woman in it. Something he was proud of.

Then it all came apart.

Now he's running his little ship, doing little jobs under the heel of a regime that he no longer believes he can do anything about. He's given up, lost his faith, been "hollowed-out inside," as Fillion says.

Yet he still pretends, still puts on a brave front for his crew. He makes them think they're important, and they are, 'cause they're his family, but. . . there's just something missing.

Remember his bitter "we won" in "Serenity," as Jayne is gleefully checking the stolen loot. Malcolm Reynolds is a man who strove, Odysseus-like, with gods. He once dreamed to change the face of history. He was a Hero of mythic proportions.

Now he's scavenging food from corpses. And he has to pretend that this is somehow worthy of him --of all of them.

They're just nobodies. They'll live, acheive their greatest dreams or suffer their most cataclysmic failures, and nobody will ever know or care.

Finally, note that he doesn't just say the line in River's head --it's a choked-off sob, like he's one hair's-breadth away from just breaking down.

"None of it means a damn thing."

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 6:03 AM

JUMPY


Quote:

Originally posted by chronicthehedgehog:
Book's is some sort of reference to his dubious past, though I have no idea what.



I just had a thought about the Book one. It could very well be to do with his past. Some people have had the theory that he had something to do with the alliance.

Maybe its kind of as if he's interrogating somebody or at least he's talking to an enemy, Book having some sort of power, able to crush some dude's life completely (because he says along the lines of "i dont give half a hump whether you're innocent, so where does that put you".- This could be a rhetorical question) So Book's opinion on whether he/she is innocent is very important (as in he can hurt them somehow)


Looking back I'm not sure If I wrote that very well but if you dont understand what I was saying tell me

Mercy is the mark of a great man…*stab*…I guess I'm just a good man…*stab*…Well, I'm alright.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 6:16 AM

EST120


That actually makes sense. Still, I wonder why that is what River heard. I am still convinced that each line has something to do with what each person is hiding from everyone else. Maybe Book was part of the group that was manipulating River?

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Monday, May 3, 2004 6:31 AM

LOST


Good question, always sort of threw me for a loop.

What's interesting is that Simon and Jayne both looked at River when they "spoke". Which isn't very surprising if you think that these thoughts were related to her, while the others she just kind of picked up in passing.

I didn't really think that Book's comment was disdain towards Jayne (but I'm an optimist and truly believe that as different as they are, they have become friends). At first I thought he was speaking to River, as she was an "innocent", but I'll admit that doesn't make much sense. I kind of feel that he is chastising himself, new religious guilt warring with his past--whatever that was.

Mal's line, I feel, shows his inner despair. Nothing means a damn thing, as though that is what he truly believes, or maybe is most afraid of. Imagine, you work your whole life to do the right thing, you do right by your people, trustworthy, loyal. But you lose, your world is falling apart, the girl that you love is leaving, isn't that enough to make anyone believe that life is meaningless.

Inara's is towards Mal, I think. She wants him to stop her, or just say anything. Of course, I do really like the idea that it was towards a doctor. I can really see that coming up in a "later" episode, a flashback to Ariel and Inara saying a line from OiS. Which would mean that it would probably happen with the rest of the quotes too, reemerging elsewhere.

Two-cents.

***
Hey, I've been in a firefight before! Well, I was in a fire... Actually, I was fired from a fry-cook opportunity.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 6:44 AM

SGTZOOK


Quote:

Originally posted by chronicthehedgehog:
Book's is some sort of reference to his dubious past, though I have no idea what.

Mal's I assume is his general apathy and uncaring about anything but his crew. He's lost all his idealism.

I'm almost certain Inara's comment is because she's dying, and it's a reference to a hospital conversation. Something along the lines of:

Doctor: There's... we found something on the scan, you're...

Inara: I'm a big girl, just tell me.

Doctor: You're dying Inara...



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I initially thought that Inara's comment is directed at Mal..
"I'm a big girl, just tell me you love me and I'll stay."

It seems they both dance around their feelings and are unwilling to admit them to each other.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 6:58 AM

EST120


Actually, your post gave me a thought. Maybe Book is talking about himself. In Serenity, he says to Inara that he watched Mal kill a man he swore to protect and then he says that he is not sure if Mal was wrong (meaning that Book felt it was acceptable to kill the Fed). Maybe Book is feeling remorse for thinking that way and the "innocent" person is him because he rationalizes that he (Book) did not kill the Fed, so he is not responsible, but later he realizes that he is not as innocent as he originally thought (partially guilt by association, but also his disdain for the Fed and not feeling bad when Mal kills him). So now, Book is caught between his faith and this event in his life that goes against everything his faith is supposed to represent, thus, what does that make him? A man or morals or a man of vengence? Just some food for thought.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 7:11 AM

WEERWOLF


I've only seen it twice so far (but made a convert in the last week and I had War Stories on tv to minimise withdrawal symptoms) since I got the DVD set, but especially the second viewing I had the idea that River thoughtthat the others were talking to her. They weren't, realy.

If she sees twigs and picks one up while it's actually a gun, why not see people turn their faces to you and say something you? While actually (outside River's senses) they were just continuing to talk to each other. Just like the gun was always a gun.

In Ariel it was established that she's extremely sensitive to emotions. What if she just picked up these emotions and translated them to sounds?

It certainly fits with Mal's "let's pretend I'm not hollow" attitude, Wash and Zoe's love for each other (like waves crashing, inundating each other's shores, it actually made sense to me). I've forgotten Jayne's and I'm not sure about Book. But it could be that he has a hard time trusting people, anyone, and still doubts his faith, which is probably still in the process of "fixing" him.

On a side note, that Inara has been told she's dying fits in very well with her decision to leave Serenity... Putting as much distance between her and Mal so Mal doesn't feel he's lost her too and that it's his fault when she actually dies. Inara's way of protecting Mal from becoming even more hollow.

But that Tell Me stuff might also just be frustration at Mal for not saying what he really feels. After all, he thinks himself he's not good enough for her. See signature.

"Think you can stoop to being on my arm?"
"Will you wash it first?"

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Monday, May 3, 2004 7:16 AM

SKYDANCE


Everybody knows Book wasn't born a Shepherd. Some might even argue that he's not a Shepherd now, but after watching his scene with River when she was "fixing" the bible, I don't believe that. Shepherd has changed. He wants, very much, to be as pious and clean and righteous as any holy man can ever be.

Something happened to change him. I'm guessing the "half a hump" relates to that something.

Mal doesn't believe for one second that Inara could ever love a broken man like himself. He doesn't even want it, because he "knows" he's not good enough for her. Check out Heart of Gold again. He has no clue she even could love him, let alone that she does. And, well ... compared to his entire world-view being torn apart at Serenity (God is on their side, after all) ... the love of one man for one woman wouldn't mean a damn thing, anyway. The universe itself is broken, and everything else is petty next to that.

I like what others keep saying about Inara being terminally ill. It would be a good reason for interrupting Mal every time he gets too close ... despite the fact that she loves him.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 7:24 AM

EST120


Maybe that is what Inara means by her statement. She does not think Mal cares for her either, so maybe her asking him to just tell her is her way of saying that if he does not love her, she can handle it.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 8:09 AM

BLACKEYEDGIRL


Thank you for finding those for me!

"Man is nothing else but what he makes himself." -Jean-Paul Sartre

Now all 3 of these lines, and actually all of the asides River catches, I don't really think has anything to do with her. But she's seeing what is unspoken. She is seeing what lies beneath, she is in a sense seeing the true self. River in a sense has an all access pass to every piece of Serenity, including the people on it.

While Mal may seem on top of things on the exterior, inside he's a big mess. He's got a lot of things he's been avoiding, and now they constantly confront him. "None of it means a damn thing." Even though I think that this has a lot to do with Inara, I think it is also a farther reaching statement about Mal after the war. With Inara I think he feels like anything he says to her doesn't mean something to her. She's trained to react in certain ways, and so he can't figure if she's geniune. In other words, he can't reconcile the person with her job. And even though he has feelings for her, they don't mean much unless she reciprocates them, and well that's a damn scary thing to be puttin' yourself out for. On a larger scale Mal feels deep down that pretty much everything he does is futile. It's not making an impact on the world. But what he doesn't see is how it impacts the lives of everyone around him.

"Just tell me, I'm a big girl." Now I think this may be as simple as Inara wanting Mal to give her a reason to stay. Nandi hinted to both about each others affection for the other, and Inara with her training has got to know that there is something Mal isn't telling her. She probably has a gut feeling about what it may be, but she thinks that Mal doesn't think he can trust her with his feelings. Or at least with the truth, good or bad she can handle it, but what she doesn't see is how instead of dealing with things, she's running, and can't handle it. River does see it. Maybe she's looking for an excuse to leave, or maybe seeking a reason to stay. Maybe she knows that Mal has got to let it all out sometime, let his emotions catch up to him, make him whole again, maybe she knows she's the only one who can help him. Although I really do love the idea of her being ill, I just think we would have had further hints to this fact beyond a needle and a day or two at the hospital. Personally I think she is leaving cos as a companion it is her job to not have ties to this world, because her clients come first. If she creates a 'family' (as she says Nandi did) it gets more complicated because she questions if what she is doing is good, and she may make concessions based on her affections for the crew over her client. Maybe it's as simple as 'she could lose her companion license and be left a common whore' over something like this.

"I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not, where does that leave you?" I think this is a window into Book's past. I think the most telling line about Book is when River freaks out about his hair and Zoe tells her it's okay that he is putting the hair away, and River says something to the effect of: "No it's still there, waiting." Is in a sense that while Book may be putting on appearances, on the inside there is still a struggle because of the things he has done. Book may be a man of God, but he isn't God, and thus still has the thoughts of a man, the man he was and the man he is trying to become. I think he is really struggling with the 'if you do something that is wrong for all the right reasons, with a righteous outcome, is it still wrong?' If you take away innocence all you are left with is actions. None of that crew are innocents, so where does that leave them? Where does it leave Book? Can he 'save his soul' or is he going to be damned anyway? Where does it leave him? I think this comment is a lot like Mal's in the sense that Book doesn't feel he is making an impact, or maybe it's that he feels he can't make an impact, that there is no saving. In the Abbey things were simpler, but I think Book is remembering that on the outside the lines become blurred, and understanding doesn't always come easy. The idealism of the church isn't appliable, and if you aren't innocent what if you can't be saved? What if it's all futile? River sees his misgivings, his fears, I don't think the 'you' is directed at her, I think it's directed at himself.

The episode is Joss trying to come to terms with understanding your place in the world (more appropriately a godless world, but I think you could substitute society or at least the Alliance for the religious figure of domination in the Firefly-verse). Everyone on Serenity has a place except River. River is feared, shunned, and outcast. She is problematic. By the end of the episode she has a place. She has made her place. Dostoievsky said 'if god didn't exist all things would be possible' and Sartre took it to the next level by saying that when there is no determinism by a god man is free and freedom is man. When you are freed from the restraints of religion, or even society, you have no excuses and no justifications, you only have yourself. You are responsible for each of your actions, but also for the reactions it has on the people around you. Each of these characters are linked to each other, and to the ship. What one does all feel. It is in this freedom that you make a place for yourself, and in doing so you come to exist. What changes with River is she takes on responsibility, she takes it on herself to save the crew from Jubal, and offers herself up, because she lacks a place, she doesn't really exist and if she doesn't exist then they won't miss her, she isn't a necessary cog in the machine. River's brain works in this way, the logical conclusion for her was to disappear. But in making such a decision she took responsibility for her self, and in so made herself a part of the machine. She became the puzzle piece no one knew was missing. I think each of the crew's asides to River are in a way their own misgivings about their place on that ship. Kaylee doesn't have misgivings because she knows where she fits in. Wash and Zoe have each other and thus are defined in that way. Simon doesn't think he belongs out there, Jayne doesn't think he should still be around, Book thinks he's losing god, Inara thinks she belongs somewhere else, and Mal thinks it's all useless. I dunno this has become a might long of a ramble. I hope you got some clarity. I recommend watching the commentary with the subtitles on so you can really get the full scope of Joss' thoughts.

WASH: Little River just gets more colorful
by the moment. What will she do next?
ZOE: Either blow us all up or rub soup in
her hair, it's a toss up.
WASH: I hope she does the soup thing. It's
always a hoot and we don't all die
from it.


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Monday, May 3, 2004 2:04 PM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1


Quote:

Originally posted by chronicthehedgehog:
Book's is some sort of reference to his dubious past, though I have no idea what.

Mal's I assume is his general apathy and uncaring about anything but his crew. He's lost all his idealism.

I'm almost certain Inara's comment is because she's dying, and it's a reference to a hospital conversation. Something along the lines of:

Doctor: There's... we found something on the scan, you're...

Inara: I'm a big girl, just tell me.

Doctor: You're dying Inara...



check out my WIP firefly roleplay system at www.estador.co.uk/firefly




WOAH. i never even thought of that!!! That would be why she was leaving and why she didn't elaborate on what happened with the doctor's on ariel...

wait...maybe she's pregnant? Do they have super condoms in the future or just normal ones?

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Here's to Jayne, the box dropping man-ape-gone-wrong-thing"
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

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Monday, May 3, 2004 2:15 PM

JUMPY


Quote:

Originally posted by BlackEyedGirl:
Thank you for finding those for me!



No Problem! lol I took the DVD out just to listen to it myself!

Mercy is the mark of a great man…*stab*…I guess I'm just a good man…*stab*…Well, I'm alright.

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Monday, May 3, 2004 2:44 PM

KARENKAY99


i think cybersnark has mal exactly right. he's going through the motions but none of it means a damn thing.
and chronicthehedgehog mentions the theory that inara is dying. i've heard this one before. it fits very well. i don't think her comment has anything to do with mal. i actually read the end of HoG differently. Mal was ready to profess his love and she knew it. all she had to do was let him. but then she gives the speech about when you get so attached you never want to leave so she must leave.
jayne & simon's comments are obvious. wash & zoe also. and the theory that kaylee has nothing to hide fits too.
but book ... i like what est120 said that maybe the comment was about himself. not so innocent anymore. i also think it's very likely that the comment is from his mysterious past. but i like to toy with the idea that it's something he'll say in the future. what kind of situation in books future could spark that comment? is he beating up another lawman? is he after someone on our crew? was it said in jest?

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

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Monday, May 3, 2004 3:05 PM

LJOSALF


Very thoughtful analysis.

Although, I really must come down on the side of every "comment" being an immediate emotional reading put into words for our benefit. I don't think any of them are reflective or contemplative or refer to past or future events.

Book is engaged in conversation about what is arguably an intensely personal subject, and, certainly, Book's comment--like Mal's, Inara's, Wash's and Zoe's readings--is not directed at River. I would have to say that it is triggered either by the topic of conversation--sex and abstinence--or by the person he is holding the conversation with--Jayne--or both combined and it is directed, IMHO, at Jayne. Book thinks he knows something about Jayne that is damning but also apparently doesn't care whether it is true or not. The direction in the script for Book's line is that it is to be delivered as "lethal" and it certainly seems condemnatory. Could be Book is cosying up to Jayne in order to keep a close watch on him....

What I find compelling about Book's line is that he conceals his emotions better than anyone else on board Serenity--didn't we all go, "Where the hell did that come from?" the first time we heard the line--and that deceptiveness says something about Book's character. It makes him seem very two-faced to me....Exactly what is Book like when he lets his hair down--metaphorically, of course?

Ljosalf

The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

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Monday, May 3, 2004 3:47 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


River may be reading something, but I'm not all together sure even SHE knows what it is. Remember, she keeps commenting how Simon would be working as a Doctor were he not looking after her. Kaylee also makes some rather snide remarks about what a cushy life Simon would be having , but out here, he's having to scrape the bottom of the barrel...But both seem to forget that it was Simon who unconditionally shows his love for his mei mei ...willing to risk EVERYTHING to save her. Seems both River AND Kaylee overlook that minor detail, and Simon is here on HIS choice, albiet bitter at the Alliance for what they did to River. So, it may be River does read resentment in Simon, but it's not directed AT her, but rather the bastards who did this TO her.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 3, 2004 4:17 PM

LJOSALF


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
...So, it may be River does read resentment in Simon, but it's not directed AT her, but rather the bastards who did this TO her.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "


Except,AURaptor, that when everyone is in the galley discussing River, Simon almost repeats the same line word for word before choking off the end of his sentence. Simon is indeed conflicted but is in no serious danger of choosing to return to the Core at the cost of his sister's life or sanity. Doesn't mean he has accepted the new life he leads as the life he is meant to lead.

Until Simon stops dancing around how he feels about Kaylee--who is the heart of Serenity--and accepts her offered love wholeheartedly he will not be of Serenity but merely on Serenity. Mal may say that Simon is one of the crew but Simon hasn't chosen Serenity as his home yet. In that sense, River is ahead of him by the end of OiS--she is at home on Serenity.

Ljosalf

The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

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Tuesday, May 4, 2004 5:30 AM

BLACKEYEDGIRL


Okay I LOVE what ljosalf has said about Simon! And yes he does say the exact line when they are up on the bridge talking about River. But I remembre when I heard him say it the first time, to me it didn't sound like he was longing to be there, it was almost like 'If I was still there, we wouldn't be in this situation.' I think Simon is kinda guilty for bringing himself and his sister onto Serenity, I think in some ways he feels like a burden. I really wish we could have had an episode where Simon finally gave in and made the ship home. I just think he's conflicted.

And I remember back a few episodes that Simon tells Mal that he thinks Serenity is the first place that River has really felt at home. Maybe Simon still hasn't seen that for himself. We all know he's kinda daft.


I really loved this episode because it's up to you what it really means. Joss does that, he can leave things directed yet wide open like this. I remember the first time I watched it, when Mal and Inara are talking and he says 'None of it means a damned thing' I honestly felt like my heart was being ripped out. Joss has a way of doing that. Book scared the hell out of me. And while I don't know if River completely understands the way her world is working around her, I think she's slowly gaining control of her power. It's like Blue Sun gave River an entire ring of keys, and only now is she starting to figure out which opens which. River is starting to understand her own logic, and she's a smart girl, we should have figured she would eventually. I think this episode is a lot about how it's not the power you have, it's how you wield it. But then again as time goes on River makes more and more sense to me. But that's prolly cos I'm sorta nuts myself. ;)

********
I took these out of your symbol and they turned into paper.

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Tuesday, May 4, 2004 3:58 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


ljosalf,

The point I'm trying to make and that so many seem to overlook is simple. Simon very easily could have:

* Ignored River's letters and just pretended everything was fine.
* Obeyed his parents and not made waves about something being wrong w/ River.
* Stayed on at a Core Hospital facility, following his life long dream and building what most likely would be a highly honored and lucretive career.

But he didn't. He tossed his career ( temporarily , at least ) in the garbage, severed ties w/ his parents, became a fugitive to the whole gorram Alliance,...risked EVERYTHING he's ever known to save River. Now he finds himself in very unsure surroundings, not knowing exactly what to do next, who he can trust or where he's going.

I'm sorry, but I'm just of the opinion that Simon is getting a bad rap. Because he doesn't pretend to have all the answers, folks seem to want to dump on him. While many might see Simon as some rich, young, cocky kid w/ a silver spoon in his mouth,..I see him mainly as just a big brother trying to save his little sister.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, May 5, 2004 1:00 PM

KARENKAY99


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I see him mainly as just a big brother trying to save his little sister.



i agree. and if anyone needs more proof, watched the end of safe.

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

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Wednesday, May 5, 2004 4:34 PM

ANNIK


Quote:

Originally posted by howdyrockerbaby1:
Quote:

Originally posted by chronicthehedgehog:

I'm almost certain Inara's comment is because she's dying, and it's a reference to a hospital conversation. Something along the lines of:

Doctor: There's... we found something on the scan, you're...

Inara: I'm a big girl, just tell me.

Doctor: You're dying Inara...





WOAH. i never even thought of that!!! That would be why she was leaving and why she didn't elaborate on what happened with the doctor's on ariel...

wait...maybe she's pregnant? Do they have super condoms in the future or just normal ones?



According to one of the quotes from Joss on this site, he had to 'get away from latex for awhile'. So I'm guessing condoms are no longer 'normal'.

LOL! Couldn't resist! (Running away and ducking for cover).

Cheers,
Annik

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 4:30 AM

DTT


Quote:

Originally posted by est120:
Along the same line, is this partly why River does not hear anything from Kaylee because she is more innocent than the rest?



This reminds me of the episode of Buffy where she could hear everybody's thoughts & Cordelia said exactly what was on her mind. Heehee.

"You didn't have to wound that man."
"Yeah, I know. It was just funny."

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Thursday, May 6, 2004 6:14 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by annik:
According to one of the quotes from Joss on this site, he had to 'get away from latex for awhile'. So I'm guessing condoms are no longer 'normal'.

LOL! Couldn't resist! (Running away and ducking for cover).

Cheers,
Annik


LOL!!! Someone call Aldous Huxley!!!

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Friday, May 7, 2004 3:22 PM

LJOSALF


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
ljosalf,

The point I'm trying to make and that so many seem to overlook is simple. Simon very easily could have:

* Ignored River's letters and just pretended everything was fine.
* Obeyed his parents and not made waves about something being wrong w/ River.
* Stayed on at a Core Hospital facility, following his life long dream and building what most likely would be a highly honored and lucretive career.

But he didn't. He tossed his career ( temporarily , at least ) in the garbage, severed ties w/ his parents, became a fugitive to the whole gorram Alliance,...risked EVERYTHING he's ever known to save River. Now he finds himself in very unsure surroundings, not knowing exactly what to do next, who he can trust or where he's going.

I'm sorry, but I'm just of the opinion that Simon is getting a bad rap. Because he doesn't pretend to have all the answers, folks seem to want to dump on him. While many might see Simon as some rich, young, cocky kid w/ a silver spoon in his mouth,..I see him mainly as just a big brother trying to save his little sister.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "


Auraptor, where you see people dumping on Simon, I see too much uncritical praise for him. He is to be commended for life for not shutting his eyes to what was going on with his sister, for trying to get his parents to act, for acting on his own. The same strong will that led him down that path, however, is both virtue and flaw in his character. He ain't weak, no, but he can be willful and he does act (where River is concerned, certainly) without reflection or considering the consequences. (Mal rakes him over the coals for not thinking before getting strangers involved in his troubles.) When he single-mindedly set out to rescue River you can bet that he never thought through to the realization that he would become a fugitive with a very high price on his head. He obviously became a fugitive before he was prepared for the condition; otherwise, he would have made arrangements to protect his accounts (you know, the ones that got frozen and left him broke?). He is still coming to grips with the wrenching changes in his life. I think he can be forgiven for having an occasional resentful thought--it just means that he is human, thank God. Oh, and he can be a smug, self-righteous pk. Kaylee's right to want him to unbend some.

Just my $0.02.

Ljosalf

The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

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Friday, May 7, 2004 3:42 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

..if anyone needs more proof, watched the end of safe
- KarenKay99

I think Simons actions speak louder than words. I also think that Mal wasn't thinking straight when he admonished Simon for how events turned out. Clearly, Simon was trying to slip away w/ River as best he could..on a non descript cargo ship. Mal was just upset that Lawrence shot Kaylee and ends up putting the blame on.... Simon??? Simon didn't shoot Kaylee! River might be a Reader, but Simon isn't, and there was no way for him to know how events would unfold.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, May 8, 2004 5:52 AM

SKYDANCE


"i actually read the end of HoG differently. Mal was ready to profess his love and she knew it. all she had to do was let him. but then she gives the speech about when you get so attached you never want to leave so she must leave."

Ooh - another one! What if "just tell me" wasn't about her dying, but about someone else dying? Someone she loved? Someone who left her (by dying)? Of course, she'd have to get away from that place, because the memories would be too painful ....

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Saturday, May 8, 2004 6:38 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Skydance:

Ooh - another one! What if "just tell me" wasn't about her dying, but about someone else dying? Someone she loved? Someone who left her (by dying)? Of course, she'd have to get away from that place, because the memories would be too painful ....



How about a political secret? From a high placed Alliance cadre in opposition to the Blue Sun nexus; not an Independent, they're in the dustbin of history. Made aware of an opposition movement, Inara is using her professional cover to fly under the radar of Alliance/BlueSun to connect that opposition (or the True Alliance, if you oppose Blue Sun too). This makes her course parallel to that of the re-activated Book, but that's another theory

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Saturday, May 8, 2004 7:03 AM

STEVE580


Did anyone notice that Simon's line, "I would be there right now," is exactly what he says later in his conversation with Kaylee? Just like River repeats Dobson's "They won't stop coming..." comment verbatiam on the Train Job. So it can be assumed that everything she 'heard' is actually spoken at some point in the past or future. I guess mostly that's obvious; but someone suggested that Book and Mal's comments referred simply to their thoughts, and I doubt it. Book probably made his comment in his 'past life', as others have suggested. Inara obviously is referring to the reason she had to leave - whether it's a fatal disease, or what. We know what Simon means, and when he says it. Now Jayne - didn't he say his 'thought' in Ariel? Over the radio? Lastly there's Mal. I'm thinking his is something he hasn't said yet. Maybe not, that's just a guess; there's no way of knowing.

Actually, I just realized that the two who looked at River - Simon and Jayne - are the two who 'say' things they've already said. So perhaps that's why they look at her.
-Steve

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Saturday, May 8, 2004 9:56 AM

NEROLI


Quote:

Originally posted by Steve580:
Did anyone notice that Simon's line, "I would be there right now," is exactly what he says later in his conversation with Kaylee? Just like River repeats Dobson's "They won't stop coming..." comment verbatiam on the Train Job. So it can be assumed that everything she 'heard' is actually spoken at some point in the past or future. I guess mostly that's obvious; but someone suggested that Book and Mal's comments referred simply to their thoughts, and I doubt it. Book probably made his comment in his 'past life', as others have suggested. Inara obviously is referring to the reason she had to leave - whether it's a fatal disease, or what. We know what Simon means, and when he says it. Now Jayne - didn't he say his 'thought' in Ariel? Over the radio? Lastly there's Mal. I'm thinking his is something he hasn't said yet. Maybe not, that's just a guess; there's no way of knowing.

Actually, I just realized that the two who looked at River - Simon and Jayne - are the two who 'say' things they've already said. So perhaps that's why they look at her.
-Steve



I believe that all those thoughts were said or will be said at some point. I think you got it on that one.

On the subject of Jayne and Simon being the only ones that look at her, perhaps that is becuase they are the only two who's thoughts are connected to River herself?

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Saturday, May 8, 2004 10:11 AM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by ljosalf:
Auraptor, where you see people dumping on Simon, I see too much uncritical praise for him. He is to be commended for life for not shutting his eyes to what was going on with his sister, for trying to get his parents to act, for acting on his own. The same strong will that led him down that path, however, is both virtue and flaw in his character. He ain't weak, no, but he can be willful and he does act (where River is concerned, certainly) without reflection or considering the consequences. (Mal rakes him over the coals for not thinking before getting strangers involved in his troubles.) When he single-mindedly set out to rescue River you can bet that he never thought through to the realization that he would become a fugitive with a very high price on his head. He obviously became a fugitive before he was prepared for the condition; otherwise, he would have made arrangements to protect his accounts (you know, the ones that got frozen and left him broke?). He is still coming to grips with the wrenching changes in his life. I think he can be forgiven for having an occasional resentful thought--it just means that he is human, thank God. Oh, and he can be a smug, self-righteous pk. Kaylee's right to want him to unbend some.

Just my $0.02.



That's just Joss' genius for creating truly three-dimensional characters, all of whom are flawed, but all of whom you can't help but love or identify with in some way. Simon would be a far less interesting character if he wasn't sometimes willful, short-sighted, or smug.

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Saturday, May 8, 2004 11:45 AM

NICOLACLARKE


Steve580 wrote:

Quote:

So it can be assumed that everything she 'heard' is actually spoken at some point in the past or future.


Yes! I've been scrolling down this thread for the past 10 minutes or so wondering why no-one had mentioned this sooner.

Jayne's line is from the end of 'Ariel', when Mal had him locked out of the cargo bay, while Simon says his later in 'Objects in Space'.

I think River is picking up on the preoccupations of the crew as she passes them - like tuning a radio and picking up snatches of other stations along the way. So from Zoe and Wash she just gets an awareness of shared passion, without words (which is interesting, when you think about it, since Zoe and Wash spend so much of their time exchanging (angry) words). I suspect the reason she picks up nothing from Kaylee is that Kaylee is not a terribly intropective/brooding person, plus she's all focused on the guy whose knee her calves are resting on.

I'd initially assumed that she was hearing things spoken in everyone's past, but that's almost immediately overturned by Simon (although I suppose it is about the past). This opens up some intriguing avenues... Book's line fits very well with what we suspect of his shady past, but what if it's still to come? What might turn him from his pacifism/faith to such an extent? Who might he be saying it to?

I agree that Inara and Mal's lines could well be said to or about each other, or at any rate they could as easily be applied to that relationship as to anything else in their lives. Could suggest a confrontation on the horizon... I like the idea that "I'm a big girl, just tell me" is about her possible terminal illness or similar, but it somehow doesn't sound like the kind of thing you'd expect Inara to say to a doctor. Unless she was very agitated; her composure is generally impeccable, particularly around people she doesn't know well.

Roll on the BDM(s)...

/ pure intentions, juxtaposed /

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Monday, July 12, 2004 7:45 PM

LIZ


i was just struck by this --
Mal's comment is about his general attitude at this point in his life... not something he would say aloud to anyone... so why can't Inara's comment be the same? "i'm a big girl just tell me" comes from a girl whose entire world is built upon a façade. Maybe she's tired of pretending, tired of putting on a face for others and people doing the same for her. Maybe she is insecure. i remember someone on this board commenting on the men she's chosen so far -- inexperienced young men and one "regular." Ego boosters all.
Quote:

MAL
Well this, the lie of it. That man parading you around on his arm as if he actually won you, as if he loves you, and everyone here actually going along with it.

Everyone knows it's a lie. Maybe the reason she left Sihnon was to see the world and break out of the profession she chose. She just hasn't found a suitable alternative yet.

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Monday, July 12, 2004 10:27 PM

AVON


One theory which I have never seen mentioned in relation to Book's inner thought is that he might just be talking about how he views his religion, and the religous services he provides to the rest of the crew.

More specificly, perhaps he is responding to his conversation with Jayne in 'the message' about honouring the dead, where Jayne asks whether Book would read over him if he fell. Book avoids the question, but maybe it affected him more than he lets on.

We already know that Mal is not interested in Book's God, and that Jayne believes he might not deserve God, or at least that Book would judge him not worthy of God, despite the fact that we see Book giving some form of service to the bandits in 'Our Mrs Reynolds'.

So maybe all Book is saying is that he dosen't care whether the crew, or anyone else they meet are innocent or not, he will be there for them in a religous sence no matter what, and that it is up to the crew whether they accept that.


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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 2:42 AM

SHINYSEVEN


Hi, fellow B7 fan! The thing is, though, that Book doesn't look tolerant and forgiving when he says that line (as he would if he were talking to a penitent)--he looks coldly furious.

"Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose"

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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 3:15 PM

PINGJING


On the subject of Jayne and Simon being the only ones that look at her, perhaps that is becuase they are the only two who's thoughts are connected to River herself?

--Neroli

________________________________________________

That's exactly what I thought. And that's why I'm wondering why Inara looks at River. She doesn't react to her the way Simon and Jayne do (she doesn't seem aware that River's there at all) but maybe Inara is in some way connected to River. How they're connected, I really don't know, but I'll think about it.

Also, a couple of people have mentioned that Kaylee didn't say anything in River's mind. That's true, but she did look different. Instead of smiling, relaxed and happy, she stared at River as if she was an intruder. She looked mean, and that's a weird way for Kaylee to look. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

Btw, there are some very insightful comments on this board. Makes for some deep thinking.

Julia

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Tuesday, July 13, 2004 4:43 PM

THEREALME


I haven't seen this episode in a while, but some others have said that Inara is not looking at River, but rather away from Mal. Not quite at River, but off to one side a bit. I don't know the truth of this, but it's a good excuse to watch that episode again.

As far as Kaylee looking at River as if River were an intruder, that could very well be exactly what River read. Kaylee, recall, had been uneasy around River since the blind shooting incident in War Stories. Not all these mind readings are verbal in nature, as we saw from Zoe and Wash. Maybe Kaylee's uneasiness is just what River got from Kaylee.



The Real Me

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Wednesday, July 14, 2004 3:20 AM

AVON


Quote:

Originally posted by shinyseven:
Hi, fellow B7 fan! The thing is, though, that Book doesn't look tolerant and forgiving when he says that line (as he would if he were talking to a penitent)--he looks coldly furious.

"Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose"



Yea, but River is taking the line out of context. It could be that she is misreading the emotion just like how Simon seems to convey a completly different tone when he's repeating his thought to Kaylee.

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Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:55 AM

LUPINADDAMS


A small but I think important tangent...

Has anyone managed to work out what the overheard thoughts in the first few seconds of the episode are - the ones when the camera zooms through Serenity?
The last one - the only one I could hear clearly - is Early saying "We're all just floating" but I am pretty sure we hear each of the crew say/think something - and possibly something different from the thoughts we hear later.

Anyone with a shooting script or really good ears out there?

"You are what you do."
Andrew Vacchs

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Sunday, July 18, 2004 8:45 AM

EST120


i know this thread may have been beat to death already, but i just noticed something while watching this episode. does anyone think it means anything that no one seems to notice river while she "eavesdrops" on these conversations? mal and inara are discussing her iminent departure and it is clear that inara has not told anyone yet. thus, it would seem a little strange that she would talk about it in front of river. anyway, it might mean nothing.


"i can't comprehend the ways that i miss you, they come to light in my mistakes."
-neko case

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Sunday, July 18, 2004 9:28 AM

THUNDAR


Quote:

Originally posted by est120:
i know this thread may have been beat to death already, but i just noticed something while watching this episode. does anyone think it means anything that no one seems to notice river while she "eavesdrops" on these conversations? mal and inara are discussing her iminent departure and it is clear that inara has not told anyone yet. thus, it would seem a little strange that she would talk about it in front of river. anyway, it might mean nothing.



Yes. I'm sure Simon would have said something to her. You Know Jayne and Book would have noticed her walk through. I don't think Inara would have said anything to Mal if she had seen River there.

She had to pass Simon to get out of her room though. It's like no one saw River until she picked up the gun in the cargo bay. Although, I guess that could explain why Simon was running across the bay first, calling her name. They did see her pass but she said nothing so they were curious where she went. Maybe she walked into the bay but her mind walked up the stairs, through the dining area and back to the bay to rejoin her body.

BTW, did anyone notice the map of the Verse Early has in his ship. The camera pans across it as he picks up the wanted picture of River and Simon.

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Sunday, July 18, 2004 9:31 AM

CARDIE


I think someone says higher up this thread that River probably isn't physically there, that what we are seeing is her embodied consciousness as she reads the crew from where she stands in the cargo bay.

Cardie

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Sunday, July 18, 2004 11:00 AM

RICKKER


Okay, my thoughts on the subject.
Simons: thoughts have been pretty much the same from the begining, River spoke of it in Ariel.
Janes: Also obvious we all saw Ariel. (I'm guessing)
Book: With his facial expression and tone I guessed that this was something from his past.
Inara: For a couple of reasons I'm going with doctor/something bad in the past. HoG had told us she left in somewhat of a hurry after working with solid purpose to be house mother. She doesn't like complications (like Mal) and that dating rules for companions are complicated. The leaving the house thing is what got me. Only two reasons to turn your life around that quick. Your on the run or you just got very bad news. She found out she was dieing and wants to see the universe before she dies.that and her quote sounds more what would be said to a doctor and not someone you would be running from.
Mal: He's been feeling this way since the pilot.
"yea we win." didn't mean a damn thing to him. Just has to keep moving keep on.
Kaylee: just caught that one the other day. At first didn't think she was one with any secrets. then the last time I watched it I caught her facial expression. She was still hiding her fear of what she saw River do in War Stories.

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Monday, July 19, 2004 1:06 PM

SHEPHERDQ


I note that the thoughts of Shepherd Book got left behind about the middle of the thread. I just thought I would point things to a slightly new slant.
After the Shindig, Mel and Inara are sitting and talking. Both the conversation and the commentary reveal that they all are misfits. Soon to become a family for each other but still misfits. Shepherd Book is a misfit as well, not really at home in the Abby anymore. Shepherd book is upset at failing to protect the fed. We see Shepherd Book break a bit during the conversation he has with Inara. He shows it is hard to find the comfort in the book when they are about to die in 'Out of Gas'. His Faith has been shaken, and he is striving to regain his balance. He has ID that makes the fedds shut up and junp. Perhaps he was " asked" ( forced ) to assist in somthing the feds had done.. and what he saw/did/heard has strained his faith and now aboard Serenity he seeks to regain it and find himself. when the bounth hunters says .. "He's no Shepherd" he would not know that unless he had seen him before or perhaps worked with him on the "assignment" the feds had.
"I don't give half a hump if you are innocent or not, so where does that put you?" sounds like something someone would say that has been in Hell and has the man that sent him there at his mercy, and lost his temper.

The Journey is the worthier part.

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Monday, July 19, 2004 1:55 PM

GRIMLAKIN


Book - I don’t give half a hump whether you're innocent or not. So where does that put you?

I think it is the subtext of what Book is thinking in his conversation to Jane. What he would say if he thought he could get away with it.

Inara - I'm a big girl just tell me

Again this pulls from a previous episode. She WANTS Mal to tell her to stay. To tell her that he loves her and he wants her to quit. To care about her possibly even more than she cares about herself.

Mal - None of it means a damn thing

This is how Mal feels when talking to Anara. He has lived his life through action. To convey something he has always every time done it with actions. He is not a man of words. He has tried time and time again to convey how he feels to Inara without saying it. Because Anara is in love with Mal she can not see past her own feelings and needs for his verbal acknowledgement of his feelings for her. A good example of this is in out of gas. He tells the crew to leave. The one that knows him best knows better and when she comes to they come back. And Anara needs Mal as much as Mal needs Anara... maybe more.


The visions are not ABOUT River. Unless the characters were talking TO river at that time. She is picking up the subtext or the feelings and thoughts of what they are saying. That is why she can get inside when people are talking to eachother and she isn't talking. She is then free to sense. Another reason I think that she is better off on the ship. The fewer people to come into her mind the better.

Remember they removed the emotional controll the receptive controlls.. the ability to block things out from her mind. They removed the buffers that everoyne else has in theory.

;)

Just my own insights mind you.

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Monday, July 19, 2004 3:41 PM

THELION


I really think Book's quote was directed at River, in reference to his shady present, and it's probably got something to do with why he jumped on Serenity in the first place. I mean, "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not" sounds like something an Alliance mole or Blue Sun operative would say.

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