GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

sympathy for the Alliance?

POSTED BY: MINCINGBEAST
UPDATED: Sunday, March 14, 2010 05:28
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3561
PAGE 1 of 1

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 8:56 AM

MINCINGBEAST


It frustrates me that FF fans are called "Brown Coats," after the sartorially challenged, and utterly defeated, rebels. Why don't we call ourselves...Purple Bellies?

Sometimes I suspect that I might have supported unification, if I'd been given the chance, and that I actually sort of like the Alliance and what it stands for: prosperity, civilization, and progress. Granted, if you asked an Independent, they'd probably say it stands for something else entirely. They lost, though.

Perhaps this relates to my worrisome habit of drawing comparisons between the Confederates and the Brown Coats. Does anyone else ever feel that the Alliance is, perhaps, unfairly maligned? I mean, they don't make for interesting villains if they're all bad, right?


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 9:36 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

I actually sort of like the Alliance and what it stands for: prosperity, civilization, and progress.


The same could be said of communist China.

Heads should roll

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 9:56 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Perhaps this relates to my worrisome habit of drawing comparisons between the Confederates and the Brown Coats.


And yet it is The Alliance that sanctions slaves.




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 10:51 AM

BYTEMITE


Pleased to meet you, won't you guess my name? Because puzzlin' you is the nature of my game.

I think even though Joss was inspired by depictions of the bloody misery and lack of food/medicine of the Civil War, that technically the Alliance, it's lords, and it's parliament are more British, and the Independents more American Revolutionaries. And Blue Sun is the East India Company.

I think that some malignant influences did stir up the Independents, because those interests wanted a war to hide what happened on Miranda. The time frame is too close together to be coincidential. Miranda was the REAL cause of the war. Though the whole resources versus manufacturing thing was a real bonus for the Alliance when they won and a partial motivation.

But basically I think the War was a cover up and a distraction. So, no, no side was technically in the right, but when the Independents claim to have been fighting for their sovereignty, I think that is true, so ideology wise I fall on the side of the browncoats.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 10:59 AM

AGENTROUKA


I actually do feel that way.

I mean, Joss SORT OFF put the seal on their evil ways with the Pax, but I actually favor the theory of a conspirational minority faction within the Alliance government in the cahoots with the non-governmental Blue Sun as being the root of it all - not an entirely wrong/evil/bad Alliance concept.

I mean, from all we have seen, they are no Nazis (no Fuehrer, no nonsensical circular concept of "justice", no group-above-the-individual mentality - that we have seen) and I don't really see evidence of Communist China/Russia, either, if you don't count the teacher in the beginning of the movie as real (which I don't, too blunt). Though the conspirators may have pushed government surveilence (due to exaggerated post-war terrorist threats?) toward that direction by the time River was at the Academy.

I completely see why Mal would be mad at them for allegedly (probably actually) forcing Alliance rule on the independent planets, but we don't really know everything about the lead-up. How unanimous was the "vote" of the people on the independent planets to not join the Alliance? Was there investment in the planets by the alliance that justified their interest?

I don't have all the extra-canonical info from the books and games, though.

I do suspect I'm struggling against the overtly simplistic depiction that Joss may have had in mind. I like to give him the benefit of the doubt, though. If he'd had time to develop the series a bit more, maybe he would have allowed for less black/white and more grey areas, making Mal less RIGHT(tm) and more one side of a coin. It would have been incredibly satisfying to see the corruption within certain circles of the goverment uncovered and fought by actual pro-Alliance characters with no intention of dismantling the entire thing.

But then... Joss likes his doooooom too much. I suspect I would have been disappointed.


ETA: What Byte said about Miranda being the root of the war, I agree with that a lot.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 11:05 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Pleased to meet you, won't you guess my name? Because puzzlin' you is the nature of my game.

I think even though Joss was inspired by depictions of the bloody misery and lack of food/medicine of the Civil War, that technically the Alliance, it's lords, and it's parliament are more British, and the Independents more American Revolutionaries. And Blue Sun is the East India Company.

I think that some malignant influences did stir up the Independents, because those interests wanted a war to hide what happened on Miranda. The time frame is too close together to be coincidential. Miranda was the REAL cause of the war. Though the whole resources versus manufacturing thing was a real bonus for the Alliance when they won and a partial motivation.

But basically I think the War was a cover up and a distraction. So, no, no side was technically in the right, but when the Independents claim to have been fighting for their sovereignty, I think that is true, so ideology wise I fall on the side of the browncoats.



i have struggled, since exposed to firefly, to decide if the civil or revolutionary war is the better lens to view the 'verse through. never thought of the blue sun/east indies connection though. neato!

also, i am an absolute black and white thinker and shun nuance, and cannot accept that both were in the right and wrong at the same time.

if we use the civil war lens, the independents may have been fighting for their sovereignty, but the same could be said of the confederates. moreover, whos to say that the Independents don't own slaves, or practice slavery? also, the alliance can be framed as having fought to...preserve the union.

if we consider the revolutionary war as the proper lens, that complicates things nicely and triggers my latent anglophilia and desire to kiss a king's boots. the colonists, as we all know, revolted out of petulance and greed against their rightful masters....

misery and politics wise, the former just seems like a better fit. of course, its probably both as a lens, but like i said, i loathe nuance.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 11:07 AM

MINCINGBEAST


kind of interesting proposal that miranda could be at the root of the war (which would also put "teh" reavers at the root of the war and mal's angst, and i absolutely love and admire "teh" reavers"), but it seems a little calculated. do people go to war to hide information? maybe to maintain control. i thought folks go to war because the strong rule wherever they can, and the weak endure whatever they must. still, worth some puzzlin' on.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 12:02 PM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


I do not necessarily agree w/ the comparison of the Brown coats / Alliance to the British / Colonies, though I could see how one might make the comparison.

Joss was inspired by the book "Killer Angels" and the main theme of states wanting to govern themselves free of a centralized government growing in power (and willingness to meddle) is a more direct comparison to the 'verse where we have planets on the rim who have been left to fend for themselves no longer willing to accept the "rule" of the Core that left them on their own.

Though the concept of the War being a cover up for Miranda is interesting, I don't think that is the case at all.

Do I think everyone in the Alliance is "evil" or has a hidden agenda? No, just as I don't believe that everyone in the Independents were necessarily good and had nothing but selfless intent.

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!



Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

X.O. / Battalion O.I.C.



http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html

http://76thbattalion.proboards.com


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 12:14 PM

BYTEMITE


Actually, I'd say the colonists (which the Alliance considers the border and rim worlds) opposed the British Empire because The East India Company found a way to back the Americans through the French, and the East India Company saw a business opportunity. So America became strongly capitalist to give corporate interests a safe haven. The "taxation without representation" thing was opposed so strongly because it was strangling business and eating up corporate profits, which instead went back to the motherland via taxes.

Why do I think so? Mostly because this was the East India Company Flag around the time of the American Revolution.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company

Quote:

The Grand Union Flag, also known as the Congress flag, the First Navy Ensign, the Cambridge Flag, and the Continental Colors, is considered to be the first national flag of the United States. This flag consisted of 13 red and white stripes with the British Union Flag of the time (prior to the inclusion of St. Patrick's cross of Ireland) in the canton.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Union_Flag

Quote:

The design of the Grand Union flag is similar to the flag of the British East India Company (BEIC). Indeed, certain BEIC designs in use since 1707 (when the canton was changed from the flag of England to that of Great Britain) were identical, as the number of stripes varied from 9 to 15. That BEIC flags were potentially well known by the American colonists has been the basis of a theory of the origin of the Grand Union flag's design.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 12:36 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Quote:

Perhaps this relates to my worrisome habit of drawing comparisons between the Confederates and the Brown Coats. Does anyone else ever feel that the Alliance is, perhaps, unfairly maligned? I mean, they don't make for interesting villains if they're all bad, right?


Just out of curiosity what are the comparisons you're focussing on Mincingbeast?


I'd not be opting for unification as a rule. Whether I'd fight against it though is another matter.... I've often thought about where I would stand with this show in terms of my allegiance - I'm more of a Tracey type character. I'd become involved but I'd be indifferent, and removed from either cause really. Both struggles seemingly redundant if blood needs to be spilled. And I reckon that sort of naivete would mean I wouldn't last long in whatever regime prevailed.

You make a good point though about the Alliance not making interesting villains if they're always bad. Chances are had the show lasted Joss & Co would have thrown in some counterpoint...

Unfairly maligned though...? No. Not really.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 12:43 PM

BYTEMITE


Killer Angels has been cited repeatedly by Joss as the inspiration, particularly in the idea of following the losers of the war to the west. But the War itself seems to be based more on the Revolutionary War, seeing that the border and rim planets were at no point part of the Alliance, until the Alliance walked up and claimed sovereignty over them as "colonies," which hadn't ever been a designation of those worlds before. This is specifically stated in the Serenity RP manual, which you may or may not take as canon, but it's been confirmed often enough that I accept it unless it's been retconned.

And the Alliance seems to be based on the British Parliament, though I'll grant you that perhaps the motivations for the war on the Alliance side were VERY similar to those on the Union side in the Civil War. And it wasn't about slavery, and it wasn't about "Civilizing the Brutes" (another British idea, used against both the Irish, the Native Americans, and later the American Colonists). It was about land and resources. Britian (and the Union) were the major manufacturing centers of the time. The Colonies (and the South) were major resource producers. Both conflicts involved the manufacturing power wishing to keep the production power oppressed, so that the production power would continue to buy the manufacturer's goods, with most of the profit on the manufacturer's side.

If you look at it in terms of the Revolutionary War, as I do, then you can have The East India Company (Blue Sun) stirring crap up on both sides, to hide a potentially ruinous secret. The Alliance decided to help Blue Sun keep their secret, Blue Sun lent it's massive corporate power to the Alliance (Britian) instead of the Independents (the Americans) and so the Independents lost.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 12:49 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:

also, i am an absolute black and white thinker and shun nuance,



You have my deepest sympathies for your disability.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 1:05 PM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:

also, i am an absolute black and white thinker and shun nuance,



You have my deepest sympathies for your disability.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



thank you, thank you. i have long maintained that it is a congenital defect, as opposed to say...evidence of my stupidity and vicious asshole nature.

anyway, mr. storymark, the comparisons for me sort of work on a gut level, but i'd be happy to try to "unpack 'em."

ahem: extreme gallantry that cannot make up for the technological disadvantages, the odds being stacked against them, mythologizing their doomed cause after the fact, the dilemma of the vanquished (being absorbed by the jerks that PWNED! you)...it seems to fit, to me at least, but i might as well be comparing them to any under dog, i suppose. maybe it's just the western vibe that throws me off. Mal kinda strikes me like an angry civil war vet turned to a life of banditry...

and re: the civil war...it was about slavery, i think the evidence would suggest. not as a moral issue, but as an economic one. doesn't necessarily contradict byte's neat ideas.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 1:16 PM

STORYMARK


Oh, I agree that the Civil War parallel is pretty obvious - though while I think we are meant to draw that parallel, the fact that the good guys are ostensibly the confederates and the "bad" guys are the alliance is meant to make us question the heroics of the heroes and the villainy of the villains. Joss doesn't like things to be all that simple or black and white. I'm sure had the series continued, he would have played with the notion more.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 1:49 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

the civil war...it was about slavery, i think the evidence would suggest. not as a moral issue, but as an economic one. doesn't necessarily contradict byte's neat ideas.


I can agree with this part of it. Even abolitionists were somewhat racist in those times. And there's some question as to whether the Emancipation Proclamation was genuine on Lincoln's part, or strategic to deny the south a source of soldiers. Which is not a bad thing, because if you think about it, those are slaves forced to fight in a war that would keep them slaves.

Slavery was the South's big production power, the North didn't want their slave production to outstrip their industrial manufacturing production (South didn't have to PAY their laborers, which money pinching factory employers in the north did). Thus also the fighting over territories in the west and the free-soil argument, it was two economic paths pitted against each other. The north really wasn't concerned about the morality aspect, that's why you still saw stuff like Jim Crow Laws and Grandfather Clauses, which were slavery in all but name, even AFTER the war ended. And no one spoke up against them.

Still, back to Firefly, even though slavery on the Rim and Border happens, I think everyone kind of thinks slavers and the people who own them are scum, no one seems to like it, not Independents OR Alliance.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 2:47 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I completely see why Mal would be mad at them for allegedly (probably actually) forcing Alliance rule on the independent planets, but we don't really know everything about the lead-up. How unanimous was the "vote" of the people on the independent planets to not join the Alliance? Was there investment in the planets by the alliance that justified their interest?


Hmm, I'm not really sure there was a vote. Let me see, I actually copied some history stuff from the Serenity RPG recently in an e-mail to someone, I'll try to find this out. I do get the feeling that the Alliance considered Rim and Border world it's "colonies," and Core worlds are "the motherlands," and that the Core worlds felt they were owed some sort of loyalty or gratitude.

But, you are right, there actually weren't that many pure Independent worlds out on the Border/Rim, most worlds (and even families) were very mixed on which side they were on. Sources I've seen list only three planets that identified themselves as Independent: Persephone, Shadow, and Hera. There might have been some minor moons that also threw themselves one way or another, but Independents were very much in the minority.

Here it is. From the RP manual:

Quote:

The Alliance was the protective parent. The Core
worlds were model children. But the Alliance had
another problem. They feared their “good children”
were going to be corrupted by the bad seeds who
lived on the wrong side of the ‘Verse. The worlds
on the Border and the Rim were self-governing,
outside the limits of Alliance control. Each world
had its own set of laws and rules that suited its
own particular needs. Folk living on these frontier
planets had been forced to be self-reliant in order
to survive, and they had come to be free-thinkers
who saw no need for a lot of government meddling.
The Alliance considered such independence a threat
to civilization. (They also considered that a lot of
valuable resources and real estate were outside their
control!) For the benefit of all people in the ‘Verse,
the Alliance decided that every planet in the system
should come under Alliance rule, whether its people
wanted it or not.

Idealistic folk of the Core planets thought this
was a great idea. Doesn’t everyone would want to
live on a safe, civilized world where folk are cared
for by their betters? The movement for Unification
spread like wildfire through dry brush. The leaders
on the Core thought they had only to open their
arms in a wide embrace and those poor benighted
souls on the Rim would come running home to their
mothers.

Those on the Border did come running. Only
problem—they carried guns.

The War for Unification was the most
devastating war in human history. All those who
lived through it are marked, like a scar left behind by
an old wound. (Just that some happen to have big
scars traced all ‘cross their faces while others have
tiny ones hidden away.) Outer planets, including
Shadow, Persephone, and Hera, mustered forces and
formed an alliance of their own—the Independent
Faction (known as “Browncoats,” thanks to the
brown dusters their soldiers took to wearing). The
Parliament of the Alliance instituted a draft to build
its forces. They were considerably astonished to
learn that more than half of the Independent forces
were composed of volunteers. The Alliance (known
as the “Purple Bellies” for their style of dress) had
the manpower, the ships, and technology to make
the result of the war a forgone conclusion—but no
one anticipated that freedom would be something so
many folk would be willing to die to protect.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 5:10 PM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


You know, I always thought of the Alliance as a more (on the surface) benign, socialist type of system - government run universal healthcare, education, infrastructure (the best in sewage, roads, general cleanliness of cities and towns, everyone's got air conditioning, not a huge homeless problem, and safety - strict gun laws, etc (you see in Ariel the cops didn't carry lethal weapons)and good system of law...I think the Core "Supreme Court" is supposed to be on Osiris...and the corruption taking place (Miranda, the Academy) is a deeply hidden secret, even within the upper echelons, that even only a few "key members of Parliament" are privy too.

I like the idea of the war being a cover-up for Miranda, but you would think if that's what the Independents were all riled up about, or if they even had a HINT of it, that certainly Mal or Zoe would have heard something to that effect, but it was a total mystery to everyone.

And you also have to consider why Inara and Simon, who we know to be good people, supported Unification - they probably thought they had an awesome government, and people out on the Rim were starving (which they are in places), uneducated and without running water, infrastructure, or healthcare (which again, are) and have a lawless system where they are at risk of criminals, war lords, mini-tyrants, and slavers (which again-again, they are)and Unification would help all those people. Like, has anyone here seen "Goodbye Lenin"? The guy's mom, with her total idealistic love of the Socialist Unity Party of Germany? I feel like a lot of people in the Core were probably like that.

But then, I keep saying socialism, which effectively is government controlling production - and we know Blue Sun and the Alliance are so intertwined as to be almost indistinguishable. So is government controlling that company, or the other way around? maybe socialism isn't quite the right way of putting it.

To put it at a more micro-local-current level, and this is an imperfect comparison, think of the Alliance like the Democrats, and the Independents are the Tea-Partiers - some see the government as a force of good (potentially) and others see it as nothing but "something that gets in a man's way" (you know Mal would be a Libertarian if he were around now ;)) Except in the Verse, the Democrats are secretly killing off entire planets and performing human experimentation. Or having death panels for realz.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 5:43 PM

BYTEMITE


No no. No one had any idea about Miranda except Blue Sun and the Alliance. But riling up the Independents with unrelated stuff would have been VERY convenient.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 6:51 PM

CORTEXOVERRIDE


Interesting you guys should bring this up because when I saw the BDH, I immediately saw The Operative as a black version of 007 specifically from Golden Eye. The parallels between them pretty much line up. Towards the middle of the film, Bond runs into a character Valentin Dmitrovitch Zukovsky.This is the Exchange between the two:

James Bond: [while talking about the incident at Savernaya] They're not just criminals Valentin, they're traitors.
Valentin Dmitrovitch Zukovsky: Well, what do you expect from a Lienz Cossack?
James Bond: What?
Valentin Dmitrovitch Zukovsky: This Janus, I've never met the man, but I know that he is a Lienz Cossack.
James Bond: Group that worked for the Nazis against the Russians. Second World War.
Valentin Dmitrovitch Zukovsky: You know your history, Mr. Bond. At the end of the war, they surrendered to the British, thinking they would help in waging war against the Communists. But, the British betrayed them, sent them back to Stalin, who promptly had them all shot. Women, children, entire families.
James Bond: Not exactly our finest hour.
Valentin Dmitrovitch Zukovsky: Still, ruthless people. They got what they deserved.

Even if you would show the movie from only The Operative's perspective, it would seem more like a Bond movie. Mal would be the foreign Terrorist(Dust Devil), Inara would be the Bond Girl and Mr. Universe would be seen as the elite hacker who breaks into Alliance security. Sort of like the hacker ,Boris, in Golden Eye.




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 7:50 AM

MINCINGBEAST


interesting. i'd rather think of mal as a bond villain of the bitter cossack variety, as opposed to, say, a Tea Partier. but that would make inara the operative's girl, and as a sissy that struggles with profound feelings of mal/inara shipdom, that is totally unacceptable.

also, mal, in the series and comics, does not strike me as exactly sympathetic to the dust devils. because that would entail 1) harming innocents (something not even Mal enjoys) and 2) believing in something.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 8:23 AM

BYTEMITE


Number 2 might not even be necessary, I get the impression that when Zoe was with the Dust Devils, she was just plain pissed off about having personally lost more than she was crushed that the Independents (and their cause) lost.

But 1 does apply. It's interesting that Zoe has slowly become more of the person who cares about harming innocents, and Mal has become the person who shoots a guy for wanting a ride.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:43 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
And you also have to consider why Inara and Simon, who we know to be good people, supported Unification - they probably thought they had an awesome government, and people out on the Rim were starving (which they are in places), uneducated and without running water, infrastructure, or healthcare (which again, are) and have a lawless system where they are at risk of criminals, war lords, mini-tyrants, and slavers (which again-again, they are)and Unification would help all those people. Like, has anyone here seen "Goodbye Lenin"? The guy's mom, with her total idealistic love of the Socialist Unity Party of Germany? I feel like a lot of people in the Core were probably like that.

As the great humanitarian Joseph Stalin taught us, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Citizens of the Alliance should just gently shut their eyes and think about the massive slaughter and destruction in the Rim of the 'Verse as mere "birth pangs" on the road to something beautiful, lawful, and healthy.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 12:15 PM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Quote:

Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
And you also have to consider why Inara and Simon, who we know to be good people, supported Unification - they probably thought they had an awesome government, and people out on the Rim were starving (which they are in places), uneducated and without running water, infrastructure, or healthcare (which again, are) and have a lawless system where they are at risk of criminals, war lords, mini-tyrants, and slavers (which again-again, they are)and Unification would help all those people. Like, has anyone here seen "Goodbye Lenin"? The guy's mom, with her total idealistic love of the Socialist Unity Party of Germany? I feel like a lot of people in the Core were probably like that.

As the great humanitarian Joseph Stalin taught us, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Citizens of the Alliance should just gently shut their eyes and think about the massive slaughter and destruction in the Rim of the 'Verse as mere "birth pangs" on the road to something beautiful, lawful, and healthy.



i totally agree with you! except the part about stalin being a great humanitarian. great mustache, or great lover, perhaps, or great human being even, but not really a humanitarian on par with...sara palin.

if the thesis that the average member of the alliance is unaware of the crimes that a corrupt cabal performs in their name, then eye shutting doesn't really have much to do with it, does it?

anyway, you sound like brown-coated independent scum.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 12:21 PM

BYTEMITE


Oh that is WAR!

We get the dinosaurs. You resort to cannibalism.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 12:27 PM

MINCINGBEAST


we get the dinosaurs, and the canibalism, because we are the victors. hence, we get all the spoils. having ascertained that we are the rightful possessors of the cannibalism, however, we grant you a limited license to starve and resort to cannibalism, so long as you properly cite the Alliance and Blue Sun.

note that i used the world cannibalism at least 4 times, and probably mispelled it differently each time. wild.

anyway...anybody know the date of Unification Day?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 12:53 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
if the thesis that the average member of the alliance is unaware of the crimes that a corrupt cabal performs in their name, then eye shutting doesn't really have much to do with it, does it?

The Unification War is long over and any who wanted to know are aware of how it was fought by the Alliance. Elites such as Inara and Simon kept their eyes shut and expressed no regrets about the war.

Inara and Simon refused to read news stories about the aftermath of war. www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/19/iraq They could still be feeling very smug and self-righteous about the glorious Unification War if only they had personally stayed away from the Rim. It is impossible to change from the news channel to a comedy show when you are on the news.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:00 PM

MINCINGBEAST


Well, I'm sure there were atrocities on both sides. It is war, after all. And what's the point in drudging up bad memories, if our goal is to celebrate Unity and move forwards as one people, united under the benevolent rule of the Alliance?

But seriously, for Miranda to be super shocking, it must be super secretive--and I for one think it makes sense if the average Alliance citizen had no idea that the Alliance is capable of such things. Hence my sympathy for the Alliance--you can support a cause you believe in, fight for it, and then discover the corruption. Makes for some nice disillusionment.

Hmm...i did some research, and it seems Unification Day's date has not been determined, though there seems to be a strong inidication it should fall in May or June.

Is a single day really enough to observe the glories of Unification?

That said, I propose May as Unification Month!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:09 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
interesting. i'd rather think of mal as a bond villain of the bitter cossack variety, as opposed to, say, a Tea Partier.



I have too much respect for Mal to call him a tea partier.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:09 PM

BYTEMITE


Uh... Actually, you just carpet bombed the dinosaurs. They're dead now. They would have been very useful to study, but even their DNA has been melted into goo.

You just set science back 65 million years. >:(

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:38 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:

But seriously, for Miranda to be super shocking, it must be super secretive--and I for one think it makes sense if the average Alliance citizen had no idea that the Alliance is capable of such things. Hence my sympathy for the Alliance--you can support a cause you believe in, fight for it, and then discover the corruption. Makes for some nice disillusionment.



The story only makes sense if people don't know. Aside from the whole point of the ending being to spread the word to folks, a conspiracy/cover-up doesn't amount to much if everyone and their dog knows.

The movie implied pretty heavily that it was just members of parliament that knew. Even the Operative didn't know - and he sure as hell would have higher access than even most officers in the Alliance.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:19 PM

CHRISISALL


The Alliance is much like the Bush Administration- hated for making people safe & happy. The Browncoats are like 60's hippies- just gotta be anti-everything for the sake of it, mindless, directionless rebels without a cause.
Inara was the true hero of Firefly, prosperous & Unification-supporting, until Joss backpedaled & sent her back on Serenity in the movie (what librul trash that was, btw).

It'a all very black & white, just like life.







The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:22 PM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Uh... Actually, you just carpet bombed the dinosaurs. They're dead now. They would have been very useful to study, but even their DNA has been melted into goo.

You just set science back 65 million years. >:(



oh no! i don't wanna be remembered as the guy that set science back...well, more years than science has existed. being remembered as a dinosaur slayer wouldn't be so bad.

but anyway, i've got to figure out a way to cover up my misdeed. more carpet bombing!

mr. chrisisall, i agree with everything you said. the force is strong in you.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:45 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:

mr. chrisisall, i agree with everything you said.

I somehow knew you would.


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:00 PM

BYTEMITE


I wasn't SAYING everyone knows. You don't have to know about something to be USED.

The Alliance/Blue Sun found something unrelated to rile up the Independents, Because no one except Blue Sun and a few members of Parliament knew about it, and wanted people good and distracted by a WAR so things would STAY that way. So the war was a cover-up, and Miranda is the indirect cause, because it gave someone a reason to either pick a fight or astroturf the browncoats.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:05 PM

MINCINGBEAST


nobody knows about my carpet bombing?

excellent, the cover up is still possible.

continue bombing.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 11, 2010 6:06 AM

JONGSSTRAW


The Alliance is a mystery, one which we see very little of. Judging by the general attitude of the Alliance's loyal citizens, they don't seem to really care one way or another what the Alliance does.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:19 AM

CORTEXOVERRIDE


Quick Question:

Do any of you think that Mr.Universe was part of the Underground Movement that helped sneak River out of The Academy? Because that is the only way I see why Joss showed both of them in the film. And sort of like in 'V', where the 5TH Column was Resistance Group from inside, do you think the UGM is made up of mostly Alliance
Troopers/Ensigns or just regular folk?

<>

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, March 13, 2010 3:30 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The Alliance is a mystery, one which we see very little of. Judging by the general attitude of the Alliance's loyal citizens, they don't seem to really care one way or another what the Alliance does.

Is... that an America parallel??


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, March 14, 2010 5:28 AM

BYTEMITE


CortexOverride:

I don't think so, Mr. Universe and the Resistance seem to be pretty much separate plot elements. Mr. Universe's backstory is that he's kind of a loner who's gotten really good at hacking. He hacked a whole lot of money, went to flight school with Wash so he could hack a ship, hacked the grades so he could pass, flew himself off world, and just disappeared. Except apparently for now and then waving at Wash, since Mr. Universe seems to consider Wash his only actual friend, or maybe because he felt guilty about cheating Wash out of graduating top of the class.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

FFF.NET SOCIAL