GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Do You Believe the Miracles in the Bible Really Happened?

POSTED BY: RIVER6213
UPDATED: Thursday, May 24, 2007 20:02
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Monday, May 21, 2007 6:07 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
That is not an approach I'm willing to take. I have nothing against Christianity. I'm just stubbornly wanting to know about the miracle issue. Is it true or not? Did it happen or didn't it, and why if it happened in the past why not have it happen now?

I think these are question that will have to be left rhetorical, because if these miracles occurred as they are literally depicted, there is no one here with the understanding to explain them to begin with. None of us were there to tell you for sure if it happened, and none of us have the grasp of nature to explain them. We don’t completely understand the world we live in now, but we do know that, at least, at the quantum level, some rather miraculous things may happen. There are plenty of mysteries in science that have yet to be explored, and there are aspects of reality that our minds simply lack, and probably will always lack, the capacity to understand. I’m of the mind to believe that there is far more to the universe and reality then we as a people will ever come close to fully understanding.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, May 21, 2007 6:09 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
That is not an approach I'm willing to take. I have nothing against Christianity. I'm just stubbornly wanting to know about the miracle issue. Is it true or not? Did it happen or didn't it, and why if it happened in the past why not have it happen now?

I think these are question that will have to be left rhetorical, because if these miracles occurred as they are literally depicted, there is no one here with the understanding to explain them to begin with. None of us were there to tell you for sure if it happened, and none of us have the grasp of nature to explain them. We don’t completely understand the world we live in now, but we do know that, at least, at the quantum level, some rather miraculous things may happen. There are plenty of mysteries in science that have yet to be explored, and there are aspects of reality that our minds simply lack, and probably will always lack, the capacity to understand. I’m of the mind to believe that there is far more to the universe and reality then we as a people will ever come close to fully understanding.



Well put! And with that I must run off to have breakfast.

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 7:16 AM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Of course, this entire discussion is predicated on a couple of fundamental questions:

1) Do you accept methodological naturalism? This cornerstone of the scientific method holds that given any phenomenon, that phenomenon has a natural explanation. Clearly, science has been proceeding nicely on that assumption. The trouble is, it's beyond proof. You can't use scientific investigation to prove that every phenomenon has a natural explanation, because you'd have to have access to every phenomenon in the universe as well as the ability to test it--and that, of course, is impossible. So methodological naturalism can't be proven conclusively. So the naturalist still has to accept a proposition that is beyond proof.

2) Do you accept material reductionism? That is, do you accept that only physical things exist? Again, this suffers from the same problem as methodological naturalism: namely, it can't be proven. Spiritual entities would by definition be non-physical. But the physical sciences by definition only deal with the physically observable. So even if there were non-physical entitities, science wouldn't give access to them. And anyway, the foundational assertion of reductionism is that given any X, X is a physical thing. But we've already discussed the difficulty attendant to proven these sorts of propositions. So again, accepting material reductionism means believing a proposition that is beyond proof.

I think the way a person answers these questions is going to control the way they answer the question about miracles. A person who is highly committed to material reduction and to methodological naturalism is going to have to say, "no," because on their view miracles are impossible.

But suppose for the moment, for the sake of argument, that there is a God, and that that God has the attributes that traditional believers say he does (again, for the sake of argument). One of the attributes traditionally predicated of God is that he is all-powerful--he can do anything. So remember, for the sake of argument, that we are supposing that there is a God, and that that God can do anything. Causing a man to walk on water (for instance) would certainly be within the power of such a being. Bending or suspending the normal operations of nature would certainly be within the power of such a being.

The frustrating thing about this type of discussion is that often times, those asserting the naturalistic worldview are taken to be "rational" whilst the religious believer is taken to be "irrational" or, worse, "illogical." But the existence of a deity is still an open question in that it has not been proven conclusively either way. So the intellectual burden on each of us is to examine the evidence and arguments and accept the position that seems to make the most sense. For myself, I am persuaded that I must reject both rigorous methodological naturalism as well as material reduction, and believe in a deity. Being that I do, I certainly believe it's possible for that deity to perform miracles. And being that I believe that, I have no problem accepting the Biblical account of miracles.



methodological naturalism? For the most part; from a "practical" perspective, yes.

material reductionism? Not necessarily, but I have yet to find a useful application of the contrary position.

-> and reflecting back to River...

Hence my slightly fuzzy answers on the above. And in any case, it's taken me a while to get there, but I'm prepared to say my positions are "faith based"

I suspect I don't have much more to contribute to the topic. As several folks have indicated, there's a leap of faith to be taken; that miracles are about us now, and in the past; or not. Ultimately, you will have to decide (or not ;-) ) on your own, which is probably stating the obvious.

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Monday, May 21, 2007 8:56 AM

TINADOLL


So i did some research and here is everything the Bible says about the Miracles: (refered to in the Bible as "works")
Quote:


Ps 78:32 For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.

Jn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Jn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Jn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jn 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else Believe me for the very works' sake.

Jn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. these things are good and profitable unto men.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.




Scorpion:

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Monday, May 21, 2007 9:55 AM

ALLIETHORN7


Did Jesus walk on water, or raise the dead, or indeed come back from death himself? Most likely not (For the last two, he'd have to be the first zombie, which kinda clashes with what most folks think of him). It's possible that he produced those miracles. I would like to believe he did, but...
Church ain't known for its truths as much as its stretchin' of 'em. Most like, Bible hyped up Jesus's miracles, cuz the Son of God couldn't very well be average now, could he? Most like, he was just a Shepard what made sense to folks, and people ran with it from there.

-Danny

A Ghost is all that's Left,
Of everything we Swore we Never would Forget,
Tried to bleed the Sickness,
But we drained our Hearts instead,
We are... We are the DEAD!!!!!!!!!!

THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!
My Master went to the Moon in a Rocket of Flamin' Cheese!

I LIKE CHEESE!!!

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Monday, May 21, 2007 10:45 AM

RIVER6213


Well it seems that most people don't believe in the Miracles that are in the bible. Too bad. It would have been fun to know that something like that was true.

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 11:27 AM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Well it seems that most people don't believe in the Miracles that are in the bible. Too bad. It would have been fun to know that something like that was true.

-River


Ah, but is truth determined by what most people in this forum believe? All you got here is opinions, not truth.

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Monday, May 21, 2007 11:49 AM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by leadb:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Well it seems that most people don't believe in the Miracles that are in the bible. Too bad. It would have been fun to know that something like that was true.

-River


Ah, but is truth determined by what most people in this forum believe? All you got here is opinions, not truth.



Well there is that matter of some who do believe in God but don't believe in his miracles. I find that to be interesting.

-River



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Monday, May 21, 2007 12:14 PM

LEADB


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Well there is that matter of some who do believe in God but don't believe in his miracles. I find that to be interesting.


That is interesting, but I saw a fair bit of it in High School (which was Catholic). I recall the class where they covered the part about miracles and saints, and there was a fair bit of skepticism expressed. Luckily, the teacher handled that sort of thing well.

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Monday, May 21, 2007 4:19 PM

MISBEHAVIN


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Well it seems that most people don't believe in the Miracles that are in the bible. Too bad. It would have been fun to know that something like that was true.
-River



Sorry that I arrived at this topic late, but wanted to add my voice to the mix. I absolutely believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, performed all of the miracles exactly as described, willingly died to pay my penalty for sin, rose in bodily form from the grave, and that he will come again as the King that he is. Those miracles validated that he truly was and is the Son of God. Not many will believe, but we're told to expect that. Narrow is the way that leads to life and few find it. In fact, we are incapable of believing unless God himself enables us. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." If you are curious, River, God may be drawing you. Read the book of John, asking God first to open your eyes for understanding, and maybe you will discover faith. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn001.html

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Monday, May 21, 2007 4:19 PM

MISBEHAVIN


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Well it seems that most people don't believe in the Miracles that are in the bible. Too bad. It would have been fun to know that something like that was true.
-River



Sorry that I arrived at this topic late, but wanted to add my voice to the mix. I absolutely believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, performed all of the miracles exactly as described, willingly died to pay my penalty for sin, rose in bodily form from the grave, and that he will come again as the King that he is. Those miracles validated that he truly was and is the Son of God. Not many will believe, but we're told to expect that. Narrow is the way that leads to life and few find it. In fact, we are incapable of believing unless God himself enables us. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." If you are curious, River, God may be drawing you. Read the book of John, asking God first to open your eyes for understanding, and maybe you will discover faith. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn001.html

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:04 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by misbehavin:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Well it seems that most people don't believe in the Miracles that are in the bible. Too bad. It would have been fun to know that something like that was true.
-River



Sorry that I arrived at this topic late, but wanted to add my voice to the mix. I absolutely believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, performed all of the miracles exactly as described, willingly died to pay my penalty for sin, rose in bodily form from the grave, and that he will come again as the King that he is. Those miracles validated that he truly was and is the Son of God. Not many will believe, but we're told to expect that. Narrow is the way that leads to life and few find it. In fact, we are incapable of believing unless God himself enables us. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." If you are curious, River, God may be drawing you. Read the book of John, asking God first to open your eyes for understanding, and maybe you will discover faith. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn001.html



Thank you for that. You are the person that I was searching for when I created this thread topic. I am not a Christian at all, nor will ever be. I was just curious about the miracles that Jesus was supposed to have done, and I was also curious about why were those particular miracles were a one time deal. But thank you for being honest and going against the many who say that the miracles did not happen. I guess you are demonstrating faith, and belief. For some unknown reason this gives me hope.

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:10 PM

CAUSAL


Sorry, River, that you felt that we were all anti-miracle. My long and rambling post was my way of saying, "Yes, I believe that the miracles happened." I agree with Misbehaving on this one.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:19 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Sorry, River, that you felt that we were all anti-miracle. My long and rambling post was my way of saying, "Yes, I believe that the miracles happened." I agree with Misbehaving on this one.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police




I read your earlier post and I got that. You were one of the few that believed in the miracles, so no sorry is needed. I don't know why but I've been angry all day regarding this particular thread and I can't put my finger on why. This is a good example why people should not isolate themselves I suspect.

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:21 PM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I read your earlier post and I got that. You were one of the few that believed in the miracles, so no sorry is needed. I don't know why but I've been angry all day regarding this particular thread and I can't put my finger on why.



Ah, good. Sometimes I get so elliptical that even I forget what I started out trying to say! Glad to know it came through.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police`

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:24 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I read your earlier post and I got that. You were one of the few that believed in the miracles, so no sorry is needed. I don't know why but I've been angry all day regarding this particular thread and I can't put my finger on why.



Ah, good. Sometimes I get so elliptical that even I forget what I started out trying to say! Glad to know it came through.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police`



Your problem is that you are too analytical, and you end up missing the small things. I'm guilty of this also.

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:25 PM

CAUSAL


Mea culpa--and no denying. That's also why I miss emotional cues that seem obvious to other people. I'm always trying to dissect things; trouble is, sometimes things just are what they seem to be.

________________________________________________________________________

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- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:25 PM

TRAVELER


For me the fact that we exist at all is a miracle. So why not others. It is hard to beleave the Bible, at least for me, because it has been edited so many times through the centuries that the original is buried under other's misconceptions. I do have a a book called "The Book of J" that scholars believe to be the nearest thing to the original First Book of the Hebrew Faith. I found it at Half Price Books of all places. But It is very enlighting as to what some believe is the true sense of what God is all about. It shows that God is very human. So that statement "in his likeness" is very real when you witness the emotions and the behavior that God has according to this edition.

On a final note. Who says miracles aren't happening today. There are some people out there that see them where others are blind to them.


Traveler

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:30 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Mea culpa--and no denying. That's also why I miss emotional cues that seem obvious to other people. I'm always trying to dissect things; trouble is, sometimes things just are what they seem to be.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police



What I have always liked about you is that you are always willing to see the other side. You take the long path, but in the end you always arrive at the right question, and the right answer. Don't stop being you even if you piss off other people.

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 5:31 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:
For me the fact that we exist at all is a miracle. So why not others. It is hard to beleave the Bible, at least for me, because it has been edited so many times through the centuries that the original is buried under other's misconceptions. I do have a a book called "The Book of J" that scholars believe to be the nearest thing to the original First Book of the Hebrew Faith. I found it at Half Price Books of all places. But It is very enlighting as to what some believe is the true sense of what God is all about. It shows that God is very human. So that statement "in his likeness" is very real when you witness the emotions and the behavior that God has according to this edition.

On a final note. Who says miracles aren't happening today. There are some people out there that see them where others are blind to them.


Traveler



I'm one of the blind because I can't see it.

-River

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Monday, May 21, 2007 6:14 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


It’s not really a question of not believing in miracles as much as it is in choosing the words that I use so as to not to commit to something that I can’t provide adequate support for. And I can’t tell you that Jesus walked on water, I can only tell you that this is what the Bible says. Now if I told you that I believed that Jesus walked on water, would that really answer your question? Would that really provide you the "truth" you seek? I can believe just about anything and I can tell you just about anything, but that I believe a thing will not make it real to you. The only thing I can tell you is what I’ve already told you. That 2000 or so years ago in Judea, something happened concerning a man named Jesus that inspired people to begin believing in him such that today a full one third of the entire world, over two billion people, are followers of that man. I can’t perform a miracle and I can’t direct you to anyone who can, but I can tell you that my study of physics has proven without question to me that there is far more in heaven and earth then we can dream of. Now I know what all of this means to me, but you’ll have to decide what it means to you, because unfortunately, the extent of the answer that I can provide you will always fall short of proof.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, May 21, 2007 6:23 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It’s not really a question of not believing in miracles as much as it is in choosing the words that I use so as to not to commit to something that I can’t provide adequate support for. And I can’t tell you that Jesus walked on water, I can only tell you that this is what the Bible says. Now if I told you that I believed that Jesus walked on water, would that really answer your question? Would that really provide you the "truth" you seek? I can believe just about anything and I can tell you just about anything, but that I believe a thing will not make it real to you. The only thing I can tell you is what I’ve already told you. That 2000 or so years ago in Judea, something happened concerning a man named Jesus that inspired people to begin believing in him such that today a full one third of the entire world, over two billion people, are followers of that man. I can’t perform a miracle and I can’t direct you to anyone who can, but I can tell you that my study of physics has proven without question to me that there is far more in heaven and earth then we can dream of. Now I know what all of this means to me, but you’ll have to decide what it means to you, because unfortunately, the extent of the answer that I can provide you will always fall short of proof.




It means that there is more in our physics that we have not discovered. Maybe it is possible to walk on water and change the weather, or to heal the sick and the lame. Maybe there is more in our science to learn, or are we going to arrogantly claim that we have learned it all? If anything, I've figured out that this Christian God uses the laws of this particular dimension to do certain things that seem like they are miracles to us.


-River

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:05 PM

TRAVELER


You are not alone River. I don't see them either.

But still I have to ask myself how it all got started. And if you look at the logic behind it. The small particles that form the atom are so versatile. Put enough together and you get a star that produces the light we need. They have gravity that holds everything together. Using the proper chemicals you get electricity. I would go on but you get the idea. It is such a simple device that has all these abilities. It took some some logic to come up with a building block that can used in so many ways. I just don't see it happening by pure accident.


Traveler

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 3:27 PM

ZZETTA13


Ok if you’re looking for an answer or opinion here’s mine. I’ve been avoiding this thread like the plague because, well this subject usually stirs ppl up. I was kinda waiting for this theard to sink to the bottom but for reasons of one thing or another it keeps floating back near the top.

Here’s my belief and it isn’t a matter of discussion or debate ( that’s what the original post starter ask for)

1) I do believe in a God. A big YES.
2) I do believe in Jesus. Yepper on that one too. He’s my brother.
3) If I believe in the first two does that have a link into believing in miracles? Affirmative.


Now why do I feel that I have to believe in all these? Ever without my actually seeing it with my own eyes or having pure proof? First of all I don’t have to, I choose to. Secondly I’ve been told that there are planets and moons and all sorts of things on the other side of the universe. Why should I believe this? I’ve never seen them either. I just believe that they’re there. I believe in a multitude of things that I have never seen, felt, smelled or tasted or heard. Beautiful things and horrid things too. Without trying to sound to corny I think life is a miracle and a mystery. Just when we are finding something out another question or two about it pops up. Now I’m not a holy roller, preacher or any such person. I’m just a person and have fallen by the wayside many times. Hope that it hasn’t made to bad a blemish on my soul. I am human, but I should try to do better.Anyoo-

Like I said before I’m not here to debate anyone over my beliefs. I don’t feel that any one religion is better than any other and if your belief is that we are here and it’s just us with no God or any supreme nature responsible for all of this than I respect your thoughts.

So do I believe in miracles? YES, totally, Z

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:03 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by zzetta13:
Ok if you’re looking for an answer or opinion here’s mine. I’ve been avoiding this thread like the plague because, well this subject usually stirs ppl up. I was kinda waiting for this theard to sink to the bottom but for reasons of one thing or another it keeps floating back near the top.

Here’s my belief and it isn’t a matter of discussion or debate ( that’s what the original post starter ask for)

1) I do believe in a God. A big YES.
2) I do believe in Jesus. Yepper on that one too. He’s my brother.
3) If I believe in the first two does that have a link into believing in miracles? Affirmative.


Now why do I feel that I have to believe in all these? Ever without my actually seeing it with my own eyes or having pure proof? First of all I don’t have to, I choose to. Secondly I’ve been told that there are planets and moons and all sorts of things on the other side of the universe. Why should I believe this? I’ve never seen them either. I just believe that they’re there. I believe in a multitude of things that I have never seen, felt, smelled or tasted or heard. Beautiful things and horrid things too. Without trying to sound to corny I think life is a miracle and a mystery. Just when we are finding something out another question or two about it pops up. Now I’m not a holy roller, preacher or any such person. I’m just a person and have fallen by the wayside many times. Hope that it hasn’t made to bad a blemish on my soul. I am human, but I should try to do better.Anyoo-

Like I said before I’m not here to debate anyone over my beliefs. I don’t feel that any one religion is better than any other and if your belief is that we are here and it’s just us with no God or any supreme nature responsible for all of this than I respect your thoughts.

So do I believe in miracles? YES, totally, Z




Thank you for taking the time to answer this question!

I see what you are saying, but I think other people would believe also if there wasn't the fact that all of the miracles performed in the Bible seem to defy all the laws of physics. This is the part that gives the miracles an unreal, or a science fiction/ fantasy twist. I guess it's difficult for people to accept this. Also this is the part I have a problem with, but I'm not saying that it didn't happen. I wasn't there and maybe it did, but I was struck by how persistent the writers in the bible were to point out these miracles, so that got me to thinking about them. And again, thank you for the post

-River

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Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:14 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Do You Believe the Miracles in the Bible Really Happened?

No.

---

"If I were a Nazi, someone would defend my constitutional right to hate Jews. If I were a Klansman, someone would defend my rights to hate blacks. It's a funny place, this world. Hate has rights. Love has none." - Jeff, Murphy's Boy

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:14 AM

MEG1448


Nope.

"Give me religion and a lobotomy."
Beulah Land-Tori Amos

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 3:10 AM

SLOWHAND


It basically comes down to whether you believe the Bible to be the Word of God or not. Some may say that they believe in certain scriptures, but others, they do not. However, 2 Timothy 3:16 says that ALL Scripture is inspired of God and benificial. So, if one is to put their faith in the Bible, they cannot discount any part of it. Plus, as mentioned by someone else, it comes down to faith. Yes, we may not see any big miracle happening in modern times, but the very definition of faith, as shown in the book of Hebrews, is that Faith is the assured expectation of things not yet beheld. So, in order to have faith, you have to believe in something you haven't seen. If you saw it with your own two eyes, it kind of diminishes the faith part.

I will say that, even though you have to trust in something you haven't seen in order to have faith, this doesn't mean that there is nothing to back up your faith. The Bible also gives us that. For example, Psalms mentiones that God hung the SPHERE of the Earth upon nothing. So, the Bible indicated that the earth was round centuries before it was ever proven. Also, if you were to look through the history books about the ancient wars that took place between Babylon and other civilizations, you will find that the Bible very accuratly fortold, in a very detailed mannor, these events. And they were written about long before the events ever took place. My point is that those, like me, that have studied the Bible and that continue to study the Bible have great faith in what it says. Yes, many of the things in it do in fact require that we have faith in things we can't see, which is the very definition of faith, but at the same time, it gives us many many examples of things that the Bible fortold that have come true down to the last detail.

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 3:56 AM

QUIETSERENITY


So I know that you've been discussing this for days, but one thing I've noticed is that an original question of yours went pretty much undiscussed. (Unless I missed it, which reading through this whole thread in one sitting is entirely possible.)

Do I believe the miracles in the Bible really happened? Yes...but honestly? Most days. Me and God are on slightly shaky ground right now, but I'm working on it.

But another thing I believe you asked is if anything spectacular had ever happened to us. One particular incident comes to mind, and there might be several other ways to explain it, but to me, they are highly unlikely.

When I was sixteen, I got in a car accident. I was driving a boyfriend home from my house when I was hit by a drunk driver. He was so drunk and going so fast, he drove clear through the front end of my car. (A Chrysler Lebaron, I always complained about the huge front, being sixteen and vain I said it looked like I was driving a boat). He didn't stop, he, in fact took parts of my car with him. So much of the car was gone that I could see the road in front of me. The driver's side door was crushed in so that it was against my side (I broke several ribs.) It was about 1:00 in the morning, and fortunately, there was a woman there who stopped and literally pulled me out the passenger side window. Neither door would open, and after my boyfriend got out, he was so much in shock he left me in there. She must have been somebody's mother because she left her car running in the middle of the road, grabbed my by the shirt and hauled me out. Anyway, that was fortunate, but the part that I saw as truly miraculous was that every single window, and both windshields were shattered, but only a couple of pieces of glass were inside the car. The rest of it was in a huge circle all around the outside. The police never could explain why it landed that way, but I'll never forget looking at it for the rest of my life.

Maybe the reason we don't see miracles like the ones that are described in the Bible is because (1) Most of the ones you described occurred when Jesus was physically there to perform them, and (2) Perhaps the miracles have adapted to fit modern times. An influx of fish would still be seen as a miracle by a fisherman, or a starving village, but can you imagine if you went to a business conference and all they fed you was fish and bread? You'd have people on diets, vegetarians, pregnant women, people with allergies...guaranteed it wouldn't be seen as a miracle, but rather as an event with poor planing.

Slightly off topic, but I wanted to put my two cents in, 'cause that's what I do.

"Call me if anyone interesting shows up."

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 5:35 AM

CONSTANCE


Do You Believe the Miracles in the Bible Really Happened? Me..? No.

The key thing here is believe I think.. proof and all that is a tricky thing, at least philosophically speaking (from what I can remember from philosophy at university.. it was hard proving the world as we know it exists). And really the whole point with religion is faith.. isn't it. I have to ask since I'm not religious. Its the faith in the Bible and God (or another god or another book) that makes it special. So the proof, were there any, wouldn't really be all that important... am I anywhere near understanding this.. or waaay of?

Constance

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Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:41 AM

FIREFLYPASSENGER


I do believe in miracles.

I beleieve the reason we don't see them now is because folks see what they want.

If a miracle took place that you saw and told someone else they would not believe you. Most folks expect big, great and grandiose miracles.

I think they come in all shapes and sizes and all you need to do is to recognize them.

Coincidence is the presence of God. I have a great story of how I was able to get some tickets to see Garth Brooks in concert. There was no way I could plan such a thing but I was able to go. I call that a miracle. Not life saving but an extraordinary string of events occurred to allow me the experience.

Good topic.

Rosie



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Thursday, May 24, 2007 8:02 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Doctors said my 6 year old brother would never walk or talk again after suffering multiple strokes and a brain hemmorage. Last year, 17 years later, he graduated college and is now a professional photographer. His speech is fine too.

About 8 years ago, in a blizzard, I got off the expressway ramp going 5 miles an hour. My car fishtailed 3 times and I ended up on the right shoulder of the road facing traffic. In my rear view mirror I saw a semi, who apparently had tried to avoid hitting me, crash into the median, flipped over, and the trailer broke in half. Somehow, the man driving and his wife got out of the truck unschathed. My car was never hit.

I don't know if these could be considered miracles by Biblical standards. My mom's only gone to church a handful of times since I've been born, but she thinks they are.

There's several times I should have died myself, other than the incident above, and yet somehow, I'm still here. Truthfully, I don't even care much for myself and there's times that I wish that one of those instances had been my last, and I find myself wondering "why me"? Surely it can't be because I'm special. Is it complete chance and mere coincidence that I'm still here, or is there some greater power that finds it amusing to put me in these situations and nearly end it all only to pull me from the fire at the very last minute, over and over again?

And these are just the experiences of some nobody suburbanite from middle America. I'm sure things which qualify as miracles happen every day. As to whether it's merely chance and everything is random or there is a higher power which is in charge, I couldn't say. I'm to busy contemplating that myself and the more questions I ask the more I end up having. Good for you for at least thinking about it though. Too many people either blindly believe because they were told to or don't believe at all becasue they were told not to believe.


"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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