GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Strongest Woman

POSTED BY: DEEPGIRL187
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 05:32
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Friday, June 9, 2006 3:48 AM

DEEPGIRL187


I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I'm somewhat of a noob, so sue me.

Who do you guys see as the strongest woman on Serenity? Not just physical strength, but strength of character. My personal vote goes to Zoe. Not just because she's a warrior woman, but because she can be a leader when things get rough (and for those who don't believe me on that, just watch "War Stories"). She is confident, puts others before herself, and never loses her cool. To me, real strength comes from those qualities.

So that's my two cents. What about you guys?

**************************************************

It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think.


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Friday, June 9, 2006 3:57 AM

MSG


I think Zoe is really strong, but I'd say Kaylee. She holds everyone together and no matter how she gets hurt or what happens she can maintain her kindness and sweetness of spirit which is impressive. Inara's really strong too to set out on her own and buck the rules like she did and River...well come on pile o reavers:)
It's one of the things I really respect Joss for. All his characters are well rounded and real and he writes women with strength and personality equal to any male character. It's too bad other writers seem unable to do that:)

You're only young once, but you can be immature any time!

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Friday, June 9, 2006 3:59 AM

AGENTROUKA


My vote goes to Zoe, too.

Her only moment of real weakness, to me, was when she was too cowardly to be honest with Wash in "War Stories", and that's something they worked through.

I love every female on Serenity, but Zoe's the one I consider strongest of mind. Just look at her at the end of the movie. Wow.

Kaylee is too easily intimidated and insulted (but getting better).

River has endured incredible hardship, but at times she is incapable of controlling herself, through no fault of her own, and can turn downright useless at the wrong time.

Inara likes to pretend away her problems until she can't ignore them anymore.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 4:09 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Inara. She's the only one who will stand up to Mal.



David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Friday, June 9, 2006 4:36 AM

TRISTAN


Zoe. I have to agree. She does what needs to be done with the minimal amount of fuss. Like Deepgirl said, she's a leader when she needs to be, and appears to have a very solid grasp on the reality of the 'verse.
'Sides...she's a warrior woman!

My two cents:





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Friday, June 9, 2006 5:52 AM

FLAME


Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
Inara. She's the only one who will stand up to Mal.



I respectfully ask to differ.

Of the women, yes, Inara snarks at Mal more often, but I wouldn't say that made her strong. Inara's a wimp. She can't handle her own feelings and hides behind all of the traditions and pretenses of the companion trade. And she runs from everything. She ran from Shinon, and then eventually she ran from Mal and Serenity. She doesn't have the strength of character to accept people as they really are, but only as they fit her little notions of what's proper or enlightened.

And, she really muffed that whole Burgess thing. She should've just slit his throat instead of talking about it, and Nandi'd still be alive, but she didn't have it in her. Zoe'd have bashed the back of his head in and been done with it.

My vote's for Zoe. And I don't think her "submission" to Mal is a weakness. Takes a lot of guts to say, "This person saved my life and I'm going to follow them to hell and back." She's amazing.



~ Flame ~

SERENITY on the big screen in Raleigh, NC, June 22, 2006!!
http://www.monkeyshinesbeadery.com/serenity/shindig/

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Friday, June 9, 2006 1:29 PM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by Flame:
Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
Inara. She's the only one who will stand up to Mal.



I respectfully ask to differ.

Of the women, yes, Inara snarks at Mal more often,



I wouldn't say that. Everybody snarks at Mal.

Quote:

but I wouldn't say that made her strong.


No but directly confronting Mal does. Inara has done it on a number of occasions and had the guts to stand up to him when he was wrong. (See Serenity: the Episode right after Kaylee gets shot and Safe when Book needs a doctor.) Nobody else on the ship really has.

Quote:

Inara's a wimp. She can't handle her own feelings


Only in the case of her feelings for Mal which are rather conflicted.

Quote:

and hides behind all of the traditions and pretenses of the companion trade.


I don't see that at all.

Quote:

And she runs from everything. She ran from Shinon,


We don't really know that for sure. We know she left Sihnon and we are told that her leaving was uncharacteristic of her but the reason for her decision to leave was never explored.

Quote:

and then eventually she ran from Mal and Serenity.


She did leave. After coming to the conclusion that staying would result in a change to her life that she didn't think she wanted to make. I wouldn't call that running away myself.

Quote:

She doesn't have the strength of character to accept people as they really are, but only as they fit her little notions of what's proper or enlightened.


I see no evidence of this. Quite the opposite in fact.

Quote:

And, she really muffed that whole Burgess thing. She should've just slit his throat instead of talking about it, and Nandi'd still be alive, but she didn't have it in her. Zoe'd have bashed the back of his head in and been done with it.


Not wanting to kill without need is not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of humanity.



David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Friday, June 9, 2006 2:13 PM

SAMEERTIA


Zoe survived Serenity Valley.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 2:28 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
Quote:

but I wouldn't say that made her strong.


No but directly confronting Mal does. Inara has done it on a number of occasions and had the guts to stand up to him when he was wrong. (See Serenity: the Episode right after Kaylee gets shot and Safe when Book needs a doctor.) Nobody else on the ship really has.


Actually everyone on the ship, save River and Book, has. They all did exactly as much (or rather as little) as she did in those two situations in the movie, and they all, her including her, backed down when he pulled his gun.

Yes she would take a stand against Mal to the same degree that Simon would in dire situations, but that makes her no different from Kaylee and Zoe.

But what happens when someone's life isn't on the line and Mal isn't steering her towards something that looks like suicide. "I didn't mean petty," and as if backing down wasn't enough listen to her voice in the next line.

Inara is a strong woman, I'll give you that any time, but the only time she and Mal really faced off when it wasn't about a third party (like say a dying friend) she backed down so quickly and so totally that I'm almost inclined to agree with the one who called her a wimp.

If we judge Inara's strength based on her confrontations with Mal then she has not strength, she has the will to talk for a very short time provided nothing unexpected happens. That's not strength. Strength requires you actually be able to follow through on what you start.

Quote:

Not wanting to kill without need is not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of humanity.

I agree that not wanting to dirty your hands when the death of innocents is the only possible outcome of keeping them clean is not a sign of weakness, but I hope it isn't a sign of humanity.

On the other hand history seems to side with you, how many mass murders could have been prevented if people would have stood and acted rather than made threats that proved idle?

On the other hand I'm not putting down Inara there, a lot of people aren't willing to actually stand up and do something, I'm not sure if I would be in her position but then again I'm hardly strong. I'd be willing to die for many things, killing is another matter entirely, especially in that situation.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 3:39 PM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
I agree that not wanting to dirty your hands when the death of innocents is the only possible outcome of keeping them clean is not a sign of weakness, but I hope it isn't a sign of humanity.



What???

Nandi dying was far from the only possible outcome in that situation.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Friday, June 9, 2006 3:47 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


I didn't say Nandi, Inara didn't know who it would fall on, and was probably hoping it would be no one she knew, but she was smart enough to know that no good would come of it, someone's blood would be spilled, and that someone was more likely than not going to be a good person.

She's not an idiot, no way she didn't see a murder on the horizon, she didn't even make him drop his weapon. Actually I think it's a sign of her incredible good luck that only one person died.

Later in the episode we do see a killing without need, of that very person Inara could have stopped, but it is a very different situation because that time he isn’t in a position to cause death.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 4:06 PM

FLAME


Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
No but directly confronting Mal does. Inara has done it on a number of occasions and had the guts to stand up to him when he was wrong. (See Serenity: the Episode right after Kaylee gets shot and Safe when Book needs a doctor.) Nobody else on the ship really has.



I don't understand that statement. Everybody has stood up to Mal at some point, some more than once. Jayne with the "how many survived serenity valley... I'm talkin' to you" and Simon with the punchy and Wash with the "I'm not leaving my wife" and Book with the "how we treat our dead is what makes us different from reavers" and... jeez, there's a whole bunch. I don't see how Inara's arguing with Mal is any different, except that it's laced with sexual tension and supressed emotion and she gets under his skin more than the others.

Quote:

Not wanting to kill without need is not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of humanity.


Um... but in the context of that episode, there was need. Burgess was there with 30 men, shooting up the place and lasering everybody, and Mal had already said that he'd kill everyone then sleep good that night. He had a laser pulled on Nandi. How much more "need" do you need?

I'll admit, I don't relate to anything about Inara. I don't necessarily dislike her, but I don't "get" her at all.



~ Flame ~

SERENITY on the big screen in Raleigh, NC, June 22, 2006!!
http://www.monkeyshinesbeadery.com/serenity/shindig/

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Friday, June 9, 2006 4:08 PM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
I didn't say Nandi, Inara didn't know who it would fall on, and was probably hoping it would be no one she knew, but she was smart enough to know that no good would come of it, someone's blood would be spilled, and that someone was more likely than not going to be a good person.



This is something you're bringing to the episode that really isn't there.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Friday, June 9, 2006 4:33 PM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by Flame:
Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
No but directly confronting Mal does. Inara has done it on a number of occasions and had the guts to stand up to him when he was wrong. (See Serenity: the Episode right after Kaylee gets shot and Safe when Book needs a doctor.) Nobody else on the ship really has.



I don't understand that statement. Everybody has stood up to Mal at some point, some more than once. Jayne with the "how many survived serenity valley... I'm talkin' to you"



And then he backs down, "You want to leave the room." "Damn right I do."

Quote:

and Simon with the punchy


I'll give you this Simon stands up to Mal once. And then gets himself and his sister kicked off the ship for his trouble.

Quote:

Wash with the "I'm not leaving my wife"


Cut to Wash on the bridge having left his wife.

Quote:

Book with the "how we treat our dead is what makes us different from reavers"


And gives Mal the perfect excuse to get people out of the way while Kaylee disarms the booby trap.

Dude your making my point for me.

Quote:

I don't see how Inara's arguing with Mal is any different


Because she actually stands up to Mal long enough to get him to change his mind.

Quote:

Quote:

Not wanting to kill without need is not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of humanity.


Um... but in the context of that episode, there was need. Burgess was there with 30 men, shooting up the place and lasering everybody, and Mal had already said that he'd kill everyone then sleep good that night. He had a laser pulled on Nandi. How much more "need" do you need?



Inara's mistake was in not realizing that Rance would rather kill Nandi than live. A fault of education not will.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Friday, June 9, 2006 4:40 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


So you're saying that she was too unintelligent to see that leaving the man armed, unharmed, mobile without significant restraint, and not even holding the knife to his throat with force, was a bad idea?

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Friday, June 9, 2006 5:08 PM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
So you're saying that she was too unintelligent to see that leaving the man armed, unharmed, mobile without significant restraint, and not even holding the knife to his throat with force, was a bad idea?



No. I think she had a reasonable expectation that Rance when faced with his own imminent demise would retreat to fight another day. It hadn't become apparent to her that faced with a minor setback in his plans he would prefer to kill Nandi than live.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Friday, June 9, 2006 5:16 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
No. I think she had a reasonable expectation that Rance when faced with his own imminent demise would retreat to fight another day.


Exactly!

Even if he didn't use the weapon she nicely let him keep right then she expected to let him leave, regroup, and kill more people at a later date when she would not be around to see it.

No doubt she was hoping that those she knew would not be amoung those to die, but like you said, fight another day, and she she knows what happens when he fights, she's spent the night with some who, by that time, had already fallen to what happens when he fights.

She was no doubt hoping another day another place, somewhere other than Heart of Gold, but none the less it had to be on her mind and you argue it was exactly what she was thinking.

-

If you are right then her plan was to let him kill more people so she could keep her hands clean.

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Friday, June 9, 2006 5:44 PM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
Exactly!



By that reasoning Mal & crew should have killed everybody they ever met. Never know when somebody you didn't kill might decide to kill you.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Friday, June 9, 2006 6:12 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
By that reasoning Mal & crew should have killed everybody they ever met. Never know when somebody you didn't kill might decide to kill you.


Um, you claim that she wanted to let a killer of innocents retreat to lick his wounds and kill another day.

Not a business man who's shooting at them because of a deal gone wrong or an opportunistic enemy trying to ring more money out of the deal, just someone who is a killer who tries to use that knack to steal a kid. Point of interest is that Zoe shot someone in the back while they were retreating so that one couldn’t fight another day, but more to the point they do try to kill people like that.

You think Mal wanted to let Niska get away after he was tortured? As far as we know Niska only killed people corrupt enough to work for him, which includes our crew, but the point is these are people who knew the risks and are in the business, that makes him significantly better than the one Inara was letting go.

Exactly who else that the crew has come in contact with fits the bill of taking a small army against an untrained group and shooting a hell of a lot of bullets (the army was assembled before Mal came after all.)

I mean we're not talking about everyone the crew met here, most petty killers don't muster armies and even when they don't I don't see most on the crew saying, "Hey, you, killer that you are, wanna go away for a bit and get back to your killing after I'm gone?"

The only murderers I remember anyone other than Inara letting go were the (attempted) ones from Out of Gas and Mal didn't really have a choice. If they did it must have been when I wasn't looking, off-screen perhaps.

-

But more to the point you're the one who said it was so he could kill another day, so why are you making a big deal out of me saying it too? Is it the fact that you said, "Fight," which we know, in his case, means, "kill"?

That's like when they said, "We're not bombing, we're dropping explosive devices."

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Friday, June 9, 2006 9:55 PM

AGENTROUKA


Is it just me or does the fact that Inara doesn't actually have much experience with the whole "fighting and killing" thing play a role, as well?

It was a very sudden, very tense situation.

Just WHAT normal civilian (sword and bow/arrow training or not) would know how to behave most effectively in that situation, especially one whose general philosophy is strongly opposed to killing? You make it sound like three easy steps to avoid a car accident.. we're talking a span of a few life-threatening seconds.

Yes, she screwed up. But not because she is not a strong woman, or because she is somehow unfathomably stupid. It was simply a situation OUT of her skills department and she failed. I doubt she's proud of it.

Hell, there is a reason Inara didn't do any of the fighting and instead tended to Petaline. I doubt it was because she didn't want to get her hands dirty.

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 2:54 AM

FLAME


Just because Inara has the ability to get under Mal's skin, and because she is persistent at times (which, as we all know, she is trained to be able to manipulate), doesn't make her a "strong woman," which is what this discussion is about.

I'm not saying Inara doesn't have her ideas of what's right and wrong, and that she doesn't pitch a hissy now and then. But, in my opinion, that fact still doesn't make her the strongest woman on the ship.

I don't consider Jayne's leaving the room to be backing down. And it's to Simon's credit that he was willing to get kicked off the ship to stand up for his sister. Yes, Wash gave in. And there are times when Inara gives in to Mal, too. But the point I was making was that other people DO stand up to Mal.

Quote:



Dude your making my point for me.




I have two very large breasts and bore two children to attest to the fact that I'm not a dude.

And, no, I don't think I'm making any point for you. I think we interpret the actions of the people on the crew differently. And I think you see something in Inara I do not see, but that doesn't change the fact that I think Zoe is, by far, the much stronger person. I think she's stronger than anyone else on the ship, male or female.



~ Flame ~

SERENITY on the big screen in Raleigh, NC, June 22, 2006!!
http://www.monkeyshinesbeadery.com/serenity/shindig/

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 5:29 AM

MSG


OK first wow how did this thread slide into a referendum of Inara's character?? Anyway, I wouldn't say she's weak because she let Rance get away I'd say she's profoundly inexperienced in a fight. ( Doubt they train for that at the house) and I would agree that standing up to Mal is something everyone does more or less, but I'd say she's strong because she left the place where she was respected and becoming a leader for reasons we don't know and she leaves and puts herself in a situation where she doesn't have any experience or sense of what to do and she not only does fine earning a living, but makes a place for herself with the crew. That's pretty strong or at least reasonably brave

You're only young once, but you can be immature any time!

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:01 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by Flame:
I have two very large breasts and bore two children to attest to the fact that I'm not a dude.



Well as of the mid 80s 'dude' in this usage is gender nuetral. When refering specifically to females it replaces the semi derogatory chic but is used to refer to people of both sexes that are in ones circle of aquaintance. Sorry if I gave offence.

For the rest of your post we have already gotten to the point where we are just repeating what we've already said to each other. I still think you are both underselling Inara and overselling the others in their realations to Mal but I see you are firmly convinced otherwise so it seems prudent at this point to agree to disagree.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:08 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by msg:
OK first wow how did this thread slide into a referendum of Inara's character??


It’s because of everyone on the crew who’s ever stood up to Mal Inara was the one who backed down most quickly and with her tail farthest between her legs, yet DAVESHAYNE says the opposite is true and when the fact was brought up he ignored it.

The Rance thing was just a side issue, for me at least, that I indulged in when Dave was avoiding addressing the flaws in his argument and instead expanding what was once a tangent into a derivative, which is fine with me, half of the reason I bring up tangents is so that they can grow into just suce a thing.

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:28 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
By that reasoning Mal & crew should have killed everybody they ever met. Never know when somebody you didn't kill might decide to kill you.


Um, you claim that she wanted to let a killer of innocents retreat to lick his wounds and kill another day.



Not quite what I said. And, not that I really expect at this point to change your mind note that untill Nandi gets shot none of the defenders of the Heart Of Gold were killed. There was only the one grave at the funeral. From the information Inara had to hand at the time of the confrontation (nobody has died yet, a rational man would not prefer to die for a pointless revenge, Rance hasn't threatened to do anything except take the baby) the correct thing to do is not kill Rance. From our priveledged position as the audience we have a better insight into Rance's character and the dramatic necesity of Nandi's death that Inara never could have had. That seems to be coloring your impression of the events a good deal more than is warranted.

Rance alive could in theory have been reasoned with and if not well he could always be killed later. As of course happened.



David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:38 AM

MSG


We just love you Chris..mostly for your cheerful and sunny disposition. I think you're a bit hard on Inara, but as you can see ( above) I actually think Kaylee is strongest. Anyway, have fun:)

You're only young once, but you can be immature any time!

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:59 AM

NUCLEARDAY


I'll have to agree with the other votes for Zoe. If I had to sum up her character in word, it would be "strength" after all.

And, of course, it's all a matter of degree. They're all obviously strong, competent and well-rounded women.

________________________________________________
You can take my Browncoat when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. (Or if Kaylee asks me nicely...)

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:24 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by msg:
We just love you Chris..mostly for your cheerful and sunny disposition.


Yeah, thanks.

But I'm right, Dave is avoiding addressing the fact that he says Inara shows he strength when confronting Mal when in fact Inara backs down when confronting Mal.

I half want to make a list of every time anyone had a confrontation with Mal and the outcome, but I feel like that would be rude and time consuming.

-

ON the other hand he might be right about something totally unrelated to whether or not Inara is strong (like I said, tangent.) If memory serves there were fewer whores at Nandi's funeral than there were in the episode and thought they'd been buried elsewhere, but my memory has been wrong more than once.

Perhaps Firefly really is the most unrealistic show I've ever seen and there truly was only one fatality on the crew's side and that didn't even take place during the fighting. I hope not though, I always liked how the show was realistic.

But since this has nothing to do with whether or not Inara is strong I can't help but wonder why Dave is focusing on that in totality and ignoring all else I say.

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:48 AM

22CLAWS

Entirely pointy.


Inara doesn't decide to spare Burgess. She, hesitates and he breaks free (if I recall correctly). I think you're a little hard on Inara.
However, we've seen Zoe does not hesitate to slit a man's throat in battle. That makes her a better warrior, not necessarily a stronger woman.

22

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:56 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
It’s because of everyone on the crew who’s ever stood up to Mal Inara was the one who backed down most quickly and with her tail farthest between her legs, yet DAVESHAYNE says the opposite is true and when the fact was brought up he ignored it.



Have you ever thought of doing standup? Because you sure are funny. Inara is the only person on the ship who has gotten Mal to change his behavior by standing up to him. The only person.

Wash's best moment comes in War Stories where he resorts to sabotaging the shuttle because he can't bring himself to confront Mal regarding Zoe.

The closest Zoe has come to confronting Mal came in the movie right after the heist. This is Zoes big confrontation, "I don't disagree on any particular point...."

Jayne's big confrontation has already been dealt with but I'll repeat it here. Zoe, "You want to leave this room." Jayne, "Damn right I do," as he slinks off. If anybody has their tail between their legs on that crew it's Jayne.

Simon punches Mal. And for his trouble gets to take his sister with him when he leaves Serenity a developement which doesn't make Mal particularly unhappy.

I can't think of any instance when Kaylee has stood up to Mal. Not necesarilly saying it wouldn't happen but it never did.

Book did some sermonizing but never changed Mal's mind about anything that Mal had already decided upon.

River. Our wonderfull psychotic, psychic, assassin did have her moment on the bridge in the movie which puts her almost to the level of Inara in the department of forcefully dealing with Mal.

Which leaves us with Inara. Kaylee has been shot and Simon won't operate unless they run away from the cruiser. Mal is having none of it untill Inara says, "Mal do it!" Mal begins his don't tell me what to do speach when Kaylee groans and Mal changes his mind in the face of Inara's forcefull demand that he do what everybody knows is plainly the right thing to do.

Okay, Kaylee gets an assist on that since she was the one dying and Simon showed he is willing to confront Mal but wasn't himself succesfull in facing him down. As he never was throughout the remainder of the series.

Fast forward to Safe. Book has been shot and Simon has been kidnapped. Mal needs to find a doctor as soon as possible. Mal and Wash are on the bridge looking at lots of places that are too far away when Inara tells him where to go to find the medical facilities that are needed. Mal rather forcefully tells her no but she conitinues to confront him to make him do the right thing even though it means having to ask the Alliance for help.

So really the evidence is on my side of the argument.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 8:29 AM

FLAME


Quote:

Originally posted by msg:
I wouldn't say she's weak because she let Rance get away I'd say she's profoundly inexperienced in a fight. (Doubt they train for that at the house)



Oh, but they do train for it. She knows hand-to-hand combat, to some extent (she tries to fight Saffon, who is companion trained, herself), and Inara knows swordfighting, and archery. Granted, probably more for show than for practical use, but I've always assumed companions were taught enough self-defense to know how to handle a client gone wrong.

Quote:

Originally posted by msg:
and I would agree that standing up to Mal is something everyone does more or less, but I'd say she's strong because she left the place where she was respected and becoming a leader for reasons we don't know and she leaves and puts herself in a situation where she doesn't have any experience or sense of what to do and she not only does fine earning a living, but makes a place for herself with the crew. That's pretty strong or at least reasonably brave.



That's true. And we don't know much about her backstory. Could be a whole lot there that reveals a lot about her.

But I'd say she relies an awful lot on the currency of being a "registered companion" and the celebrity/influence it buys her, than real guts and gumption. I'd be "brave" too, if I knew I had more influence than a preacher and could just walk into a sheriff's station and rescue Mal and Zoe, and that anywhere I went in the 'verse the doors would be open to me. She's pretty useless when faced with someone (like Jubal Early) who doesn't respect her companion status nor fall for her wiles.



~ Flame ~

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 8:44 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
Jayne's big confrontation has already been dealt with but I'll repeat it here. Zoe, "You want to leave this room." Jayne, "Damn right I do," as he slinks off. If anybody has their tail between their legs on that crew it's Jayne.


Yeah, Jayne stands up to Mal and runs from Zoe, what does that have to do with Inara?

Skipping to the end though...

Quote:

River. Our wonderfull psychotic, psychic, assassin did have her moment on the bridge in the movie which puts her almost to the level of Inara in the department of forcefully dealing with Mal.

I'm sorry when was Inara as forceful as a loaded cocked gun in his face? Are you sure you're not the one in stand up?

Quote:

Which leaves us with Inara. Kaylee has been shot and Simon won't operate unless they run away from the cruiser.

So Simon is standing up to Mal? Why wasn't that in your list?

Quote:

Mal is having none of it untill Inara says, "Mal do it!"

At which point Mal is sill having none of it as proven by:
Quote:

Mal begins his don't tell me what to do speech

then
Quote:

when Kaylee groans and Mal changes his mind

true
Quote:

in the face of Inara's forcefull demand that he do what everybody knows is plainly the right thing to do.

Um, Kaylee's groan was a forceful demand on Inara's part? Inara does some really nice ventriloquism then because Mal only changed his Mind in face of Kaylee's groan at which point he did what Simon told him to do.

If Kaylee's groan counts as Inara winning why not Simon too? IN fact why not just tack everyone who had nothing to do with Kaylee doing that on? The only one responsible for the outcome other than Kaylee who made up Mal’s mind and Simon who made the demand was the guy who shot Kaylee thus making it all happen. Inara is not that guy, in case you didn't notice.

Quote:

Simon showed he is willing to confront Mal but wasn't himself succesfull in facing him down.

But he was as successful as Inara, which is to say he had no effect until Kaylee making pained noise came into it. If Simon doesn't get credit for changing a mind Inara doesn't either. Life might not be fair, but assessment should be.

If you really want to try to add meaning to that other than Kaylee deciding it Mal looks at Kaylee, then looks at Simon, then makes up his mind, then completely ignores Inara till well into the operation. The implication is that if anyone other than Kaylee made up his mind it was Simon.

Of course that's an if, and I tend to think Kaylee did it on her own, but if we are to assume that is not the case the evidence still points away from Inara as the reason.

Quote:

Fast forward to Safe. Book has been shot and Simon has been kidnapped. Mal needs to find a doctor as soon as possible. Mal and Wash are on the bridge looking at lots of places that are too far away when Inara tells him where to go to find the medical facilities that are needed. Mal rather forcefully tells her no but she conitinues to confront him to make him do the right thing even though it means having to ask the Alliance for help.

There was nothing forceful about that confrontation.

Quote:

So really the evidence is on my side of the argument.

Rewind to Serenity, Mal just said he will commit murder, Inara says it’s a bad idea, Mal says shut up in Chinese, she does instantly. She does go on to say, after giving up on convincing Mal not to commit murder, that she will leave if Mal is responsible for the death of Simon and River indirectly, but makes no effort to convince him not to kill them and Mal’s response is that it might be best if she did leave and she keeps her mouth shut not pressing the issue in the least.

The next confrontation they have is in Shindig, they're snapping at more than one point in time but the only time she tries to change his mind is when she tries to get him to escape, not only does she fail but he changes her mind about it and gets her to help train him for a little while.

Later still comes Safe where the situation is reversed in that Inara changes Mal’s mind but not a voice was raised.

OMR is something we'll touch at a later date if you insist on touching it at all.

Jaynestown lacked a confrontation between the two.

Out of Gas: she tries to convince him to come with her, not a confrontation, but she did try, and fail pitifully, to change his mind.

Ariel: Inara was off the ship.

War Stories: Inara tried to convince Mal not to see the councilor, she failed in totality but his shock made a formal meeting and handshake not happen anyway.

Trash was their largest confrontation in which Inara resorted to a small voice, innocent puppy dog eyes, and submissive posture the moment he took issue with a word she had used.

I don't remember a strict confrontation in The Message, Heart of Gold, or Objects in Space.

In Serenity the movie again Inara went against Mal, this time backed up by Simon, Zoe, Jayne, Wash, and Kaylee. Like the rest she backed down the moment Mal made a gesture of disagreement and kept her mouth shut after that.

That puts her at two for seven, one of the two being won by a person other than herself and the other one not even involving a raised voice or anything resembling hostile emotion. Anyone and everyone can stand up to someone, no matter who, when there's nothing to lose from it and no sign of the possibility of an adverse outcome.

Of those the remaining five one included the fastest backing down ever seen in Firefly complete with small voice and submissive posture. That one has the honor of being the largest one-on-one they ever had.

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 8:50 AM

FLAME


Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
note that untill Nandi gets shot none of the defenders of the Heart Of Gold were killed. ... From the information Inara had to hand at the time of the confrontation (nobody has died yet, a rational man would not prefer to die for a pointless revenge, Rance hasn't threatened to do anything except take the baby) the correct thing to do is not kill Rance.



Several of the defenders of Heart of Gold were shot, but whether they were shot, dead or dancing a jig, I don't think Inara would have known because she was in with Simon, River and Petalaine during the gunfight.

But what Inara did know very well before the gunfight was that Mal thought Burgess was extremely dangerous - so dangerous that Mal wanted to take everyone and leave the planet. And she knew that Burgess would kill everyone in the place and then sleep well that night. And she knew Burgess had a gun pointing at Nandi and that Burgess had brought a bunch of men to kill everyone and destroy the place. She had to know he was not a rational man.



~ Flame ~

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 8:57 AM

FLAME


Quote:

Originally posted by 22Claws:
Inara doesn't decide to spare Burgess. She, hesitates and he breaks free (if I recall correctly). I think you're a little hard on Inara.
However, we've seen Zoe does not hesitate to slit a man's throat in battle. That makes her a better warrior, not necessarily a stronger woman.



You're right. I really don't like Inara, and for some reason I like her less and less the more I watch and re-watch FIREFLY and SERENITY. Not sure why. And I'm sure my dislike colors the way I interpret her actions.

But there are lots of reasons I think Zoe is stronger, like I said, than just about anyone else on the ship. Not just her warrior skill and physical strength, which is considerable, but her emotional resilience, composure, practicality, resourcefulness, loyalty, intelligence, and more.



~ Flame ~

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:01 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
That puts her at two for nine



Which is two better than anybody else. Which was my point.

Show me any other character standing up to Mal and having the will to see it through - aside from Simon in the movie who brilliantly manipulated Mal into doing what he wanted to do anyway (get Simon and River off his ship) and was just looking for an honorable excuse to do so.

As you noted every other instance in which Inara backs down from Mal (ignoring silly arguments like the one in Trash) everybody else does as well. Which again was my point.

Addendum: River used a gun. Inara faced down Mal with the force of her personality. I think the personality one is a bigger test of guts.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:11 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
Which is two better than anybody else. Which was my point.

Show me any other character standing up to Mal and having the will to see it through


Simon in the very first episode, Kaylee in the unaired cut of the pilot, Zoe in the movie, Wash in War Stories...

Quote:

As you noted every other instance in which Inara backs down from Mal (ignoring silly arguments like the one in Trash)

Ignoring their biggest confrontation? How convienent for you.

So when Inara is telling Mal to do what Simon is telling Mal to do it and has no effect on the outcome that's important, but when she's talking about her LIFE that is silly?


Quote:

Addendum: River used a gun. Inara faced down Mal with the force of her personality. I think the personality one is a bigger test of guts.

Inara backs down with the threat of violence, River responds in kind. Inara gives up when Mal draws a weapon, River holds him at gunpoint.

Inara's force of personality was just enough for her to give up in exactly the same situation (Mal drawing a gun) except with Inara the gun wasn't meant for her, with River it was.

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:15 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by Flame:
She had to know he was not a rational man.



Why? Because she's read the script? Up to that point there was no reason for Inara to suspect that Rance wouldn't value his life more than the death of Nandi's. We have that information because we saw his little misogonystic pep rally but Inara could not have known.

Consider this, if the only way to beat Rance is to kill him, and Inara knows this because Mal told her, why didn't Mal just tell Jayne to shoot Rance the first chance he got? Probably because he as well thought that Rance alive could be reasoned with after the proper force was applied.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:31 AM

DEEPGIRL187


Jeepers cripes, guys. Here I was just trying to pose an innocent question, and WWII has broken out. The idea of strength is subjective, I think. That being said, when I originally posed this question, I was wondering about everyone's personal opinions, not who's right and who's wrong. Ease down on those claws guys.

P.S. - And by the way, all of the women on Serenity are strong in their own way. Maybe asking who is the strongest woman wasn't the right way to phrase the question. Perhaps the best way to phrase it is "Who do you admire most for their strength."

*************************************************

It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think.

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:35 AM

22CLAWS

Entirely pointy.


Jayne targeted biggest immediant threats (machine-guns, etc). Inara had him for a moment, but he escaped.
The only one who decided to spare Rance, was Mal. (with a pistol-whip, instead of a bullet).

22

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:50 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
Simon in the very first episode,



Didn't see it through. Inara got Mal to give in. Simon would have been outh the arilock without a suit if Inara hadn't been there.

Quote:

Kaylee in the unaired cut of the pilot


The key word there being unaired. Not on the DVD anywhere. You'ld think that Joss didn't want that to be part of the story after all.

Quote:

Zoe in the movie


When? the "I don't disagree with any particular point" speach? That wasn't standing up that was backing down.

Quote:

Wash in War Stories...


Sabotaging the shuttle because he was too scared to directly confront Mal about his relationship with Zoe? I guess passive agressivce is the best we can hope for from Wash but it was a far cry from actually confronting him.

Quote:

Ignoring their biggest confrontation? How convienent for you.


It wasn't their biggest confrontation. There was a lot of snark, Inara made her point about not being able to find clients, Mal denied that it was deliberate and then they got into a silly little argument about crime that ended in Inara calling Mal petty.

A very minor squable that doesn't appear to have had any lasting effect on their relationship. Inara even calls Mal a petty thief in Heart of Gold and all it ellicits from Mal is a brief look.

Quote:

So when Inara is telling Mal to do what Simon is telling Mal to do it and has no effect on the outcome that's important


You have it backward. Mal won't do what Simon has told him to do untill Inara tells him to and Kaylee moans. The important part there is Inara. Simon would have been dropped on a shuttle with Dobson for the feds to pick up had Inara not gotten involved.

Quote:

Inara backs down with the threat of violence, River responds in kind. Inara gives up when Mal draws a weapon, River holds him at gunpoint.


You mean at Haven when everybody, Zoe and Jayne included, backs down when Mal puls his pistol? Hard to fault Inara in particular in that case.

Quote:

Inara's force of personality was just enough for her to give up in exactly the same situation (Mal drawing a gun) except with Inara the gun wasn't meant for her, with River it was.


I'm having difficulty understanding this part. You say it's a greater test of character to threaten somebody with a gun than it is to make them see reason with words alone. Any fool can pull a gun.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:53 AM

FLAME


Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
Show me any other character standing up to Mal and having the will to see it through - aside from Simon in the movie who brilliantly manipulated Mal into doing what he wanted to do anyway (get Simon and River off his ship) and was just looking for an honorable excuse to do so.



I don't think Mal wanted Simon and River off of the ship at all. If he did, he would have just put them off the ship. Period. And he wouldn't have brought them back on the ship, later. Plus, he repeatedly refers to them as part of the crew throughout FIREFLY.

As to who stands up to Mal, she's not crew but Nandi does. Makes him change his mind about running.

Jayne stood up to Mal in Ariel. Wanted Simon and River off the boat. Then when Mal didn't comply (though immediately after the conversation with Jayne in the infirmary, Mal does tell Simon to keep River in her room unless he's got Mal's permission), Jayne contacted the feds himself. I'd say that's following through and going against Mal. But, of course, we all know that the feds nabbed Jayne, too, so he had to change his plan.

Then, I suppose we could say that Jayne backed down when Mal had him in the airlock, but what else could he do? Inara would back down too if she was about to get sucked into space. But even to the end, Jayne is making demands of Mal, "don't tell 'em what I did. Make up something."

And Mal does. Mal never tells anyone what Jayne did.

Jayne and Mal go back and forth a lot. There are times when Jayne backs down, because he knows Mal's right, but not when he knows Mal's wrong.

MAL
Funny how the Lawman got out of his
room. You having tied him up so well
and all.

JAYNE
I didn't have nothing to do with that.

Or in OBJECTS

MAL
The lockers were sealed. We both
know --

JAYNE
I don't leave my guns around, Mal.
And I don't leave 'em loaded.

MAL
Well somehow she got her hands on
your hardware. Suppose she took up
something with hull-piercing bullets?

JAYNE
Bullets is soft lead, Mal. Even Vera
could barely breach hull and she's
the best I got! Anyhow, let's direct
this conversation in a not-Jayne's-
fault direction.
I didn't make her crazy. Hell, I
didn't want her on the damn ship.

MAL
(in his face, quiet)
Is that the direction you want this
conversation to go in?

JAYNE
I just don't like taking a lashing
for what I ain't the cause of.

And Mal ceases the lashing.

SERENITY -

MAL
You wanna run this ship?

JAYNE
Yes!

Etc.

Jayne's leaving the room after "damn right I do" was not slinking, and it was not tail between legs, and I don't think it was even that Zoe scared him off. It was extreme anger and disgust. When I get that angry, I leave a room, too. Don't mean I'm backing down. Shooting script says he "stalks" off. Stalk - to walk off in anger. Then JAYNE proceeds, again like in Ariel, to try and remove River from the ship, no matter what Mal says. But River knocks him out.



~ Flame ~

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:58 AM

FLAME


Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
Consider this, if the only way to beat Rance is to kill him, and Inara knows this because Mal told her, why didn't Mal just tell Jayne to shoot Rance the first chance he got?



I have wondered that myself. I think it's for the same reason Burgess' laser was "battery low" once Mal caught up to him (on a horse that can run as fast as a hovercraft)... gotta have drama. If Jayne had just plugged Burgess off the hovercraft the way he plugged the machine gunner, we wouldn't have a big dramatic ending!



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Saturday, June 10, 2006 10:06 AM

FLAME


Quote:

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Jeepers cripes, guys. Here I was just trying to pose an innocent question, and WWII has broken out.



No war, just an honest brawl between folk.


~ Flame ~

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 10:19 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


My computer has just crashed three times in a row while I tried to respond to this post, I want to get this done before I call tech support though.

This means I'm just going to focus on one thing, and even after the computer is fixed, if it is fixed, I'm going to stick with this because I think it needs to be directly addressed and not lost while I try to find simpler words to say things in because your still not responding to what I actually say. (I'm not blaming you, I'm obviosuly the one who is comunicating badly.)

So here goes. (If you say something not on this point, no matter how much I think it needs a response, I'll ignore it.)

What makes you think Mal would have let Kaylee die without Inara there? Do you think Mal just doesn't like Kaylee? How is it that Inara's presence is required to make Mal keep Kaylee alive.

Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
Inara got Mal to give in. Simon would have been outh the arilock without a suit if Inara hadn't been there.


That would have left Kaylee dead.

To make it clear you repeat:
Quote:

Mal won't do what Simon has told him to do untill Inara tells him to and Kaylee moans. The important part there is Inara.

Meaning Kaylee dying loudly on her own wouldn't have provoked the same response.

Quote:

Simon would have been dropped on a shuttle with Dobson for the feds to pick up had Inara not gotten involved.

Dropped in a shuttle means that Kaylee will not get treatment from Simon (in the shuttle) or the Alliance(being avoided), and there is no one else to give it to her. Mal knows how important the next few minutes are.

The only possible result with respect to Kaylee is her death.

You say that this is what would have happened without Inara.

At first I thought you weren't thinking this through or I misunderstood, but you've made yourself clear, without Inara you believe that Mal would have let Kaylee die.

Why do you believe this? Do you have any evidence to back up the belief that Mal would do such a thing? Do you really think he cares that little about Kaylee?

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 10:22 AM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


Zoe. Hands down.

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 10:55 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by Flame:
I don't think Mal wanted Simon and River off of the ship at all. If he did, he would have just put them off the ship. Period. And he wouldn't have brought them back on the ship, later. Plus, he repeatedly refers to them as part of the crew throughout FIREFLY.



Becuase Simon and River are on Serenity Mal has to go farther out and take riskier jobs from less trustworthy people. Mal says as much during the long shot during the credits. But Mal is a man of honor he can't just throw them off the ship because it isn't the right thing to do. But if Simon and River leave on their own that's a somewhat different story. And then on Haven he's telling Book abaout how he should have just left them there. Now in the end Mal realized that he couldn't just leave them behind but that was after reflection.


Quote:

As to who stands up to Mal, she's not crew but Nandi does. Makes him change his mind about running.


Well sure but the conversation is regarding members of the crew.

Quote:

Jayne stood up to Mal in Ariel. Wanted Simon and River off the boat. Then when Mal didn't comply (though immediately after the conversation with Jayne in the infirmary, Mal does tell Simon to keep River in her room unless he's got Mal's permission), Jayne contacted the feds himself. I'd say that's following through and going against Mal.


Only in a situation in which Jayne thought Mal would never find out.

Quote:

But even to the end, Jayne is making demands of Mal, "don't tell 'em what I did. Make up something."


That wasn't a demand. That was begging. Begging for the tiniest scrap of mercy possible.

Quote:

Jayne and Mal go back and forth a lot. There are times when Jayne backs down, because he knows Mal's right, but not when he knows Mal's wrong.

MAL
Funny how the Lawman got out of his
room. You having tied him up so well
and all.

JAYNE
I didn't have nothing to do with that.



I'm missing the confrontation here. Mal asked a question and Jayne gave him an answer. No backing down needed.

Quote:

Or in OBJECTS

MAL
(in his face, quiet)
Is that the direction you want this
conversation to go in?

JAYNE
I just don't like taking a lashing
for what I ain't the cause of.

And Mal ceases the lashing.



Because Jayne backed down.

Quote:

Jayne's leaving the room after "damn right I do" was not slinking, and it was not tail between legs, and I don't think it was even that Zoe scared him off. It was extreme anger and disgust.


That is a possible interpretation of the script but the way I hear the line as it is delivered it doesn't sound like angry to me it sounds like scared. Angry would have been a bit louder I think as well as more forcefull. What I heard was a person belatedly realizing that he'd just said the wrong thing to the wrong man at the wrong time. Zoe was just the person who pointed that out to him.

Quote:

Then JAYNE proceeds, again like in Ariel, to try and remove River from the ship, no matter what Mal says. But River knocks him out.


Having been balked in his attempt to face down Mal, Jayne decides to attack what he thinks is a weaker target. Why after the events of the Maidenhead Jayne still thought River was a weak target I'll never know but Jayne isn't always the brightest. (Even though he is smarter when he sits down to it than many give him credit for; he just forgets to think things through a lot.)

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 11:07 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
Why do you believe this? Do you have any evidence to back up the belief that Mal would do such a thing? Do you really think he cares that little about Kaylee?



Only that untill Inara spoke up Mal was very stubornly refusing to accede to Simon's demand.

I think he cares very highly for Kaylee. Which is why he would also hesitate to make her - as well as everybody else that he cares for on the ship - a fugitive. As it turns out Dobbs didn't get the chance to ID Serenity to the cruiser but Mal couldn't know that.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 11:10 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by Flame:
Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
Consider this, if the only way to beat Rance is to kill him, and Inara knows this because Mal told her, why didn't Mal just tell Jayne to shoot Rance the first chance he got?



I have wondered that myself. I think it's for the same reason Burgess' laser was "battery low" once Mal caught up to him (on a horse that can run as fast as a hovercraft)... gotta have drama. If Jayne had just plugged Burgess off the hovercraft the way he plugged the machine gunner, we wouldn't have a big dramatic ending!



Then don't blame Inara for also answering the call of dramatic necesity.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Saturday, June 10, 2006 1:15 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
Why do you believe this? Do you have any evidence to back up the belief that Mal would do such a thing? Do you really think he cares that little about Kaylee?



Only that untill Inara spoke up Mal was very stubornly refusing to accede to Simon's demand.


And he still was afterwards. Until Kaylee made a noise, he was against it. But you said that wasn't the important part, why? Inara told him to and all he did was raise his voice, his stance was exactly the same.

If Inara had been silent and Kaylee had been there dying and made that same noise you say that Mal would have let her die, the only thing you have as evidence for what you say is that his stance before Inara got involved was the same as before Simon said, "Run," and his stance after Inara got involved, but before Kaylee did, was the same as after Simon said, "Run," except louder.

I have trouble believing that Mal is as heartless as you claim based on that. Mal changed his mind when Kaylee cried out and I think that he would have done the same with or without Inara because the alternative is that Mal cares so little about Kaylee he'd just let her die.

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