River's escape (in the movie) by BelfastBoy

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

River's escape (in the movie)

POSTED BY: BELFASTBOY
UPDATED: Thursday, January 5, 2006 11:52
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Thursday, January 5, 2006 1:37 AM

Hello all, I'm new to the Firefly universe and Serenity, so apologies in advance if this topic has been discussed elsewhere:

Could someone more knowledgeable clarify exactly what part Simon played in freeing River from Alliance / Blue Sun confinement? The movie shows him actively participating, at considerable risk to himself, in rescuing River (IMO, a thrilling scene, by the way). Yet the TV series pilot implies that he used his money and position to arrange for others to do the actual deed, or is this my misunderstanding? My perception was that Simon made his way to Persephone to collect River (in stasis), but that he wasn't directly involved in freeing her. Or am I mistaken?

I'm sure every newbie says this, but Firefly's cancellation seems utterly inexplicable to me. There is so much crap on TV that runs for years, yet when something challenging and complex comes along, it is misunderstood and maltreated by myopic, clueless, lowest-common-denominator execs, and not given a chance to develop. This is a great site and I look forward to participating in discussions with other like-minded people.

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 1:49 AM

FIREFLYNUTTER

I have to agree with ure first statement... I too was completely bamfuzzled by the sudden change in the rescuing of River. Maybe they hoped that the majority of people seeing the movie were noobs to the 'verse and so it almost seems as if it were a quick patchup job to make it make sense. Myself i had trouble trying to figure out whether or not River had been recaptured, but after reading the official comic I'm even more confused than before...

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 1:51 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by BelfastBoy:
what part Simon played in freeing River from Alliance / Blue Sun confinement? The movie shows him actively participating, at considerable risk to himself, in rescuing River (IMO, a thrilling scene, by the way). Yet the TV series pilot implies that he used his money and position to arrange for others to do the actual deed, or is this my misunderstanding? My perception was that Simon made his way to Persephone to collect River (in stasis), but that he wasn't directly involved in freeing her. Or am I mistaken?

Welcome BelfastBoy!

Seems to me that since the movie is written by Joss, that it is clearly canon...so obviously Simon DID actively help River escape.

Nothing he said in Firefly directly contradicts that, even though when you see 'Firefly' only you end up with the impression that Simon didn't do much (was it modesty? Or maybe he had other reasons for not going into a lot of detail?).

Since 'Firefly' was unfinished we don't know how things would have played out if the show had stayed on the air, but a lot of things were kept vague. Joss Whedon worked really hard to avoid directly contradicting anything from the TV show when he wrote the movie, and I thought he did kind of an amazing job.

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watch the R. Tam Session vids: http://www.hittarivertam.nu/
and buy the 'Serenity' comics published by Dark Horse

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 1:55 AM

NDRAGE85

yeah, the whole River escape thing is often confusing to people new to the 'verse. in fact, even some old fans were somewhat unhappy about the movie version. but in my opinion, what Joss did is very understandable. Some things had to be changed for the movie. Like Joss said, he couldn't make the movie strictly for the fans. The fans know the Firefly version, and yes, as far as fans know or believe(for the most part), Simon had no part in the actual physical escape of River. Like it says in the series, he had connections who broke her out for him. In the movie, that would have just been one more thing to explain. In the movie, like in the series, he used his money and resources to be able to infiltrate the facility, but for the sake of universal understanding of the story, it was much more simple to have Simon actually be the one to break her free. It better explained his role as her brother and also made the deeper connection of how much he cared about her. So, i guess in order to answer your question, the confusion is normal because a small bit of the story was changed in order for it to work better on the big screen. in Firefly Simon paid to have River rescued. But for the story's sake, in Serenity, Simon himself rescued her. He still used his money to make the necessary connections. so, essentially, there are two different versions. i just made this answer much longer then it should have been. sorry. and welcome to the 'verse. it's a fun place to be. spread the greatness that is Firefly and help it gain the recognition that it deserves. glad to see you here.

***edited section*** after reading some of the other posts, i guess not all of us older fans agree on the thing entirely. lol. i guess what i posted above was my take on it. sorry.

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 2:22 AM

BELFASTBOY

Thanks for the quick responses - I had maybe thought that Joss did make the slight change (if indeed it is a change) in order to make things simpler for those who hadn't seen the TV show. Or, here's another take on the situation:

Simon does indeed play his direct role in River's rescue as seen in the movie, but then places her in stasis and in the temporary custody of the unspecified underworld contacts he has cultivated. He and River thus arrive on Persephone separately, presumably negating the risk of early interception by the Alliance. (I agree that this very brief conjecture doesn't stand up to a great deal of scrutiny, especially as Simon always seems highly recluctant to allow River out of his direct sight, and even out of touching distance on occasion. I can't imagine him allowing River in a vulnerable cargo container to travel across space unless he really had to. This is the fault of trying to reconcile continuity when in fact, for storyline purposes, it's easier to assume that Joss simply made a minor shift. I'l forgive him this time lol)

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 2:27 AM

NDRAGE85

another reason why some people believe that it is a small story change is because they believe that the Firefly Simon wouldn't have had, pardon my language, the balls to pull of an escape like he does in Serenity. but, like i said, small changes had to be made for the sake of story (maybe, lol).

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 2:59 AM

DONCOAT

Simon was always willing to take almost any risk for River's sake. He stood up to Mal in the pilot, refusing to treat Kaylee until Mal agreed to run from the Alliance. Seems like a healthy cojones factor right there.

I agree with the interpretation that says the story line was changed a bit for the sake of efficient storytelling in the movie, but that the change is insignificant. The only thing you have to accept is that Simon lied to the crew (slightly) when he told them the story of River's rescue -- leaving out his personal involvement and leaving the impression that others did the wetwork. That's understandable: he'd just met these people, and had no particular reason to trust them. Why tell them more than was necessary?

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I don't disagree on any particular point.

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 3:16 AM

BWARE42

I liken it to Ben Kenobi's talk with Luke in Star Wars where he talks about his father and how he was hunted and murdered by Darth Vader...It's true, from a certain point of view.

Simon was always a close to the vest kind of guy. So for sake of coninuity I look at it that he downplayed his direct involvement with River's escape to the the Serenity crew in the series. The truth of the escape comes out in the movie.

Ahh...You know, you really can justify almost anything.

And ifn you don't like it, there's always my alternative theory:

LOL!

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 3:20 AM

NDRAGE85

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
Simon was always willing to take almost any risk for River's sake. He stood up to Mal in the pilot, refusing to treat Kaylee until Mal agreed to run from the Alliance. Seems like a healthy cojones factor right there.

I agree with the interpretation that says the story line was changed a bit for the sake of efficient storytelling in the movie, but that the change is insignificant. The only thing you have to accept is that Simon lied to the crew (slightly) when he told them the story of River's rescue -- leaving out his personal involvement and leaving the impression that others did the wetwork. That's understandable: he'd just met these people, and had no particular reason to trust them. Why tell them more than was necessary?

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I don't disagree on any particular point.

like i said, some people think that Simon couldn't have pulled it off himself, but I'd like to think that he'd do anything for River, so IMO i very well believe that he could have done it himself. i kind of always assumed that it was a small story change, but after thinking about it and what is really said in Firefly, it could have just as easily happened how it did in Serenity. there really is nothing that Simon wouldn't do for River.

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 4:59 AM

BELFASTBOY

Unfortunately I've come to Firefly the wrong way around - I saw Serenity first and was so impressed that I had to get Firefly on DVD. So my initial (ie first quarter of the movie) impressions of Simon weren't that great. However, now that I'm more au fait with the characters and setting, I've really come to appreciate and even admire Simon. I'm certainly in no doubt that, although he isn't as directly action-oriented (like Mal or Jayne), he's certainly resourceful and courageous enough to do anything for love - turning his back on his family and civilised society to save River speaks volumes. 'Safe' is a key episode for Simon's character, especially when he's prepared to die alongside River.

To veer slightly off topic momentarily - has anyone experienced moments when you really feel emotionally involved with Firefly characters? Again, in 'Safe', when Serenity leaves Simon and River behind, I felt strongly when Jayne immediately ransacked Simon and River's possessions without presumably feeling any compassion. I felt sympathy for the abandoned siblngs, and disapoointment in Jayne (who obviously redeems himself in other ways throughout the series.) This is testament to the quality of the characters and the writing - I care more about Firefly characters and their actions than I ever really did about Star Trek: TNG characters, even with their 170+ episodes and multiple films.

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 11:44 AM

SMAUG

I don't find any discrepancies between the movie and the series when it comes to River's escape/recue from the alliance. When Simon told the story to the crew in the piolet episode of the show.. he had no reason to tell them every single detail.. so he downplayed.. or even lied about his direct envovlment. So what? How many times has each of us had reason to not tell 100% of the story? In essence he did come forth with his and River's story.. even if he didn't tell them every detail.. or even lied about his own envolvemnt.. he didn't yet know or fully trust all these people yet.. he only had to tell them enough to get them emotionally envolved.. to see if they would help them.. or at least not turn them over to the alliance. After he and the crew gained each other's trust (well mostly).. there was no reason for him to go back and recant anything to them about his story. Why would it matter?

Now it has been brought up before that Simon doesn't seem like the type to be able to pull River's rescue off himself. But let's not forget what the operative said about Simon... LOVE.. something that is far more dangerous. For love.. and with with something like, what, a year of more planning? Nothing was going to stop Simon from at least trying everything he can.. even sacrificing his life.. to get his sister out. When a plan is thought through.. Simon is cool and calculated and on his game.. just like in Arial. How long had he been at least thinking about getting River into a hospital? Although he may have sprang to action when the oportunity presented itself.. I have a feeling that he had been giving this a lot of thought long before the hour or so that they had been on Arial. But then we see.. when Simon is just thrown into situations like in Jaynestown and Safe.. that he bumbles and seems lost. He can't think on his feet. But when he is able to prepair.. and plan.. and think the entire thing through.. he is cool and collected... I suppose as long as things go according to plan.

Hmmm.. that makes me wonder.. if the story continues.. what do you think Simon would now do.. and be capable of.. if Kaylee was threatened? I suppose he can now open up a can of River whoop-a$$ on anyone who threatens Kaylee..

Smaug..

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Thursday, January 5, 2006 11:52 AM

ITSBROKEN

Im pretty new too(couple of weeks now), but i always thought somewhere in between Firefly and Serenity River was captured again by the alliance, and Simon was rescuing her again. Oops. I didnt know it was to show the original escape.

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***someone should make a MMORPG based on the 'verse!***

Geeze i want Firefly to come back!

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