GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

*Spoilers for Ariel* How did Mal know?

POSTED BY: BELACGOD
UPDATED: Sunday, November 13, 2005 08:30
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Saturday, November 12, 2005 12:15 PM

BELACGOD


How did Mal know Jayne had sold out the Tams? It'd have been a hell of a thing to do just on a guess, and we viewers didn't see anything that told us he did, unless I missed something.


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Saturday, November 12, 2005 12:20 PM

GEEKMAFIA


My sister desktop hippie (who's visiting at the moment hence the me giving the her opinion) says it's all down to mal knowing jayne so well he bought him out in the first place and has worked with the guy for a while, he knows how jayne thinks so he was ready for this.

Plus he already had an idea after the whole "what happens when the money is good enough" bit from the pilot ep.



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Saturday, November 12, 2005 12:32 PM

BELACGOD


That's a fair deal of circumstancial evidence, but it's a gorram central planet, any number of things could have gone wrong. They could have been spotted inside, a fed could have been in there for some unrelated reason, someone could have had a scheduled use for the neuroimager...since Simon was singing Jayne's praises, only the most paranoid would dismiss all other causes.

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 12:42 PM

GEEKMAFIA


DesktopHippie's reply is-

"Your point being...?"




This is Mal we're talking about, after all



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Saturday, November 12, 2005 12:53 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


There was Jayne's change of plan, making Simon and River leave early and going out through a different direction. Plus his reaction was very different when they got back, he was being really modest, not typical of him.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 12:58 PM

FOLLOWMAL




Mal is always right in the end....

always.

"Everybody's makin' a fuss." Mal

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:02 PM

BELACGOD


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
There was Jayne's change of plan, making Simon and River leave early and going out through a different direction. Plus his reaction was very different when they got back, he was being really modest, not typical of him.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam



Mal shouldn't have known about the change of plan, or he'd have said something to the others. The modest reaction might be damning, but not enough to take the risk of being wrong.

Remember, River's the psychic, not Mal.

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:02 PM

ELEANOR


Really, I was always surprised that no one else (especially Zoe) seemed to figure it out. If the Feds knew that the Tams were in the hospital, why don't they go in and search for them instead of waiting patiently outside the door? And how do they know just which door to wait by? Someone had to have tipped them off. And then there's that *look* on Jayne's face when Simon is giving his speech, not mention his sudden burst of modesty and the "you're on my crew" comment. Too out of character for there to *not* be something going on.

"Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out." –Cardinal Wolsey

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:07 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Quote:

Originally posted by Belacgod:
Mal shouldn't have known about the change of plan, or he'd have said something to the others. The modest reaction might be damning, but not enough to take the risk of being wrong.

Remember, River's the psychic, not Mal.


Mal would have known about Jayne's change of plan because their locations were all being tracked by Wash and Kaylee.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:12 PM

BELACGOD


Quote:

Originally posted by Eleanor:
Really, I was always surprised that no one else (especially Zoe) seemed to figure it out. If the Feds knew that the Tams were in the hospital, why don't they go in and search for them instead of waiting patiently outside the door? And how do they know just which door to wait by? Someone had to have tipped them off. And then there's that *look* on Jayne's face when Simon is giving his speech, not mention his sudden burst of modesty and the "you're on my crew" comment. Too out of character for there to *not* be something going on.




The crew didn't know what happened inside. All they knew is what Wash told them about the chatter. Remember how surprised they all were when Mal said he was going in for them?

For all the crew knew, the Feds had gone in the front door/were already inside.

The "you're on my crew" moment is probably the best answer I'm going to get, but I'm still not satisfied. It's a plot hole that, I suspect, can only be filled by Wash having heard about "two fugitives" over the com.

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:14 PM

BELACGOD


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:

Mal would have known about Jayne's change of plan because their locations were all being tracked by Wash and Kaylee.




But he wouldn't know why they moved out early. Feds could have caught them there, someone could have needed the room and discovered unauthorized people there...a lot of very likely things.

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:16 PM

DAISYCUTTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Belacgod:
How did Mal know Jayne had sold out the Tams? It'd have been a hell of a thing to do just on a guess, and we viewers didn't see anything that told us he did, unless I missed something.




Well, I don't think Mal was planning on killing him either way, just rough him up a bit. Plus that little discussion could indicate to Jayne that Mal shouldn't be taken as a fool in the future.



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Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:20 PM

BELACGOD


Quote:

Originally posted by DaisyCutter:



Well, I don't think Mal was planning on killing him either way, just rough him up a bit. Plus that little discussion could indicate to Jayne that Mal shouldn't be taken as a fool in the future.



I doubt he'd have killed him either (unless he failed to confess), but imagine if he was innocent. Jayne would have killed Mal in his sleep. Would you take that risk with your best fighter if you weren't absolutely sure?

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:21 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Quote:

Originally posted by Belacgod:
But he wouldn't know why they moved out early. Feds could have caught them there, someone could have needed the room and discovered unauthorized people there...a lot of very likely things.


That's part of the problem, Jayne didn't tell anyone about his change of plan, which he should have. There's also how Wash and Kaylee were monitoring all the transmissions in the hospital and they didn't hear anything until Jayne got captured and it was in code.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:27 PM

DAISYCUTTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Belacgod:

I doubt he'd have killed him either (unless he failed to confess), but imagine if he was innocent. Jayne would have killed Mal in his sleep. Would you take that risk with your best fighter if you weren't absolutely sure?



I wouldn't think Jayne would kill Mal in his sleep, he kills for money. If someone raised the stakes than he might have. And besides, the quirky River might of killed Jayne even before that would of happened.

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:32 PM

BELACGOD


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:

That's part of the problem, Jayne didn't tell anyone about his change of plan, which he should have. There's also how Wash and Kaylee were monitoring all the transmissions in the hospital and they didn't hear anything until Jayne got captured and it was in code.



If they'd been caught by the feds, he wouldn't have had the chance to call the others.

Quote:

Originally posted by DaisyCutter:

I wouldn't think Jayne would kill Mal in his sleep, he kills for money. If someone raised the stakes than he might have. And besides, the quirky River might of killed Jayne even before that would of happened.



OK, maybe he wouldn't kill him in his sleep. But the amount of money it'd take for Jayne to sell Mal out would drop precipitously if he'd been innocent and Mal had still nearly spaced him.

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:40 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Quote:

Originally posted by Belacgod:
If they'd been caught by the feds, he wouldn't have had the chance to call the others.


Jayne's change of plan was before he got caught by the feds. He was leaving the hospital through a different direction and he didn't tell anyone about it. There's also the part where Wash and Kaylee was monitoring the hospital's transmissions and they didn't hear anything about Jayne being captured until they heard the code which suggests that the feds already knew that River and Simon were in the hospital.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 2:04 PM

CHINDI


I think it was Jayne's acting odd (all generous and such) and the "you are on my crew" comment COUPLED with Mal's natural instinctive suspicion..He knows Jayne would sell him out cus Jayne told him as much before, when the day comes.. well THAT will be an interesting day....and Jayne has been CONSTANTLY bitching about the Tams being onboard.

Mal has a sense for these things, and he expects such things from ppl.. that they will let him down.

But here is another question.. why KEEP Jayne on board knowing that he had betrayed you? I do not believe Mal is afraid of Jayne (tho maybe he should be) but WHY keep a traitor among your crew?

Jayne knows too much to let go- he would then definitely sell them out for $$$ so it is keep him or kill him right then... so, why did Mal spare Jayne?

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 5:22 PM

CHINDI


bumping... hoping for a response

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 5:44 PM

ERASERHEAD


Here's my 2 cents on the subject. Mal knew that there could be a possible problem with leaving Jayne alone with Simon and River. He even went so far as to bring it up while they were on their way to Ariel. He asks Jayne if there was going to be a problem, seeing as how River just stabbed him and he's never been shy about the fact that he doesn't like Simon. Just because Jayne said that there wouldn't be a problem, it doesn't mean Mal actually 100% believed him that there wouldn't be one. Mal didn't really know for sure if Jayne was involved or not in them getting caught by the feds, but he had a good idea due to knowing who Jayne is and what his motives are. He may have just really been trying to scare an admission out of him when he had him in the air lock. He needed to show Jayne that he'd better think twice about screwing with him like that again. When he cracked the outer door open, he was showing Jayne that he was serious about killing him. It was only when Jayne saw the door open and thought that Mal really was going to kill him that he confessed to his part in the plan.

I also believe that Mal really was going to kill him until Jayne told him not to tell the others what he had done. I'm pretty sure, and this is just from memory so it may be wrong, that Mal walks up the stairs a little past where the button is to open the door. He really seemed like he was going to leave Jayne in there until Jayne called him again to say that on the walkie talkie. Anyway, I'm just throwing my opinions out there. I'm not saying I'm definitely right. That's just the way I always thought about it.

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 5:55 PM

ANONYMOUS1


Quote:

Originally posted by Chindi:
But here is another question.. why KEEP Jayne on board knowing that he had betrayed you? I do not believe Mal is afraid of Jayne (tho maybe he should be) but WHY keep a traitor among your crew?

Jayne knows too much to let go- he would then definitely sell them out for $$$ so it is keep him or kill him right then... so, why did Mal spare Jayne?



Jayne said to Mal something like

Don't tell them the truth. Make up something.

Jayne did not want the crew to know he had
betrayed them. Why would that matter to Jayne
once he was dead? Jayne cares what the rest
of the crew thinks of him.

Is below a *Spoiler* for the Pilot episode
Part 1?

In the 1st episode and Kaylee is being
operated on, Jayne is crouching outside the
room watching the operation. He cares
about Kaylee. Jayne is family.

Mal realized there was hope for Jayne and
let him back on board.


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Saturday, November 12, 2005 6:06 PM

LIMINALOSITY


Quote:

Originally posted by Chindi:
I think it was Jayne's acting odd (all generous and such) and the "you are on my crew" comment COUPLED with Mal's natural instinctive suspicion..

.. so, why did Mal spare Jayne?



Definitely Jayne acting odd and sucking up, combined with Mal's ability to see danger in a situation. Plus, he probably smelled the stink of freaked out and fear coming off Jayne. Just like you do when someone you know is lying outrageously.

I think Mal spared his because of what Jayne said...(from the script)

JAYNE
Do me a favor...
(beat, genuine)
Make something up. Don't tell them
what I did.

Jayne admitted he was ashamed he had done something so terrible he figured he deserved to die for it. He was so ashamed he didn't want the others to know what he'd done. I think Jayne's request let Mal know that Jayne had repented and wouldn't ever betray any of the crew again.

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 6:15 PM

BROWNTROUSERS


Yeah, i liked the part where jayne basicly says that he's ashamed of what he did.

Huge Fan of:
Firefly\Serenity
Farscape
Andromeda (Early Seasons)

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 6:45 PM

CHINDI


I totally agree with the above posts... and I have to say.. this is why Ariel is one of THE BEST EPISODES... a gem among gems...

That interaction between Jayne and Mal is just plain amazing.


chindi

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 8:06 PM

YORG


It was easy for Mal to know.

Why was the plan changed without Mal's knowledge? By this time in the series we all know that Mal is in charge and he HATES it when people go against his orders. What Mals says goes.

So Mal must have thought it was weird for Jayne and company to find themselves at the back entrance when they weren't supposed to be there in the first place.

Plus there's the strange behaviour by Jayne during Simon's praise. Which if the first part doesn't give it away, then this surely does.


Now, as to why Mal didn't kill Jayne or tell anyone.

1. Mal knows the alliance and he knows Jayne (which is why he has so little trust for both). Mal knew that the alliance wouldn't give up the reward just like that to some criminal. Jayne didn't know that obviously so he trusted the alliance. But know that Jayne has experienced first hand the lies of the alliance, he wouldn't try to do it again. Jayne is tough, but he's like a big kid; if he gets burned, he learns.

2. Mal knows that Jayne is opportunistic and money hungry, but also that Jayne cares what people think of him. Look back at Jaynestown and see how remorseful and guilty Jayne was; that pretty well defines his deeper character. Mal just wanted to once again make himself very clear to Jayne; he caught him in the act and Jayne sincerly felt bad about what he had done (of course after realising that the alliance are never to be trusted).

3. Also, Jayne had finally realised that the only person who tells it like it is and will always be upfront with him is Mal. So Mal pretty much knew from this point forward Jayne would be much more loyal to him. Notice in Objects in Space that Jayne is defending himself to the Captain about not leaving a gun laying around for River to find, instead of his usual anger at Mal for talking down to him, he backs down and just doesn't want to be blamed.

4. Finally, because Jayne at least wants a little respect from the crew (he knows that they tease him cause he's not that smart), he doesn't want anyone to know (it would be like Jaynestown all over again making him a false hero). So Mal has a huge bargaining chip (aka blackmail) to hold over Jayne's head.

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 8:59 PM

KUANGAORUI


Quote:

Originally posted by Belacgod:
How did Mal know Jayne had sold out the Tams? It'd have been a hell of a thing to do just on a guess, and we viewers didn't see anything that told us he did, unless I missed something.




There are so many instances like that in the series and fundamental questions that that fracture the entire firefly universe. Like if it has taken 6000+ years of civilized government to populate earth with 6,000,000,000+ humans how would we populate an entirely new solar system 500 years from now? Even in the best case scenario it would take at least 2000 and as is consistently shown they are not in the best case scenario. But that's not the point the point is here is a group of extraordinarily well written and well acted characters that is fun to see interact with each other. You just need to step out side the universe and understand what makes a good story.

And don't hit me with all the possible scenarios that you can some up with where populating an entire solar system in 500 years could work because it is not possible not starting with what we got now.

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:06 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


The bulk of the world population increase happened within the last 200 years. The population of the earth was 1 billion in 1802, the population right now is 6.45 billion, the population of the world in 2050 will be 9.1 billion.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:10 PM

KUANGAORUI


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
The bulk of the world population increase happened within the last 200 years. The population of the earth was 1 billion in 1802, the population right now is 6.45 billion, the population of the world in 2050 will be 9.1 billion.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam




Ya if every single person on the planet left now and survived the trip it might work and I am saying right now! We barley have the ships to get 50 people of the plaint right now. not to mention the time it would take a find a solar system suitable and develop the terraforming technologies to make the plaints suitable and the time it would take to get there... need I go on?

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:16 PM

YORG


As far as human population goes, we basically are growing exponentially.

The running prediction is that by 2100 the earth will have 12 billion people on it.

The earth is already pretty crowded as we try to live in some type of balance between nature and human structures. Personally I don't think the earth can hold 12 billion people. I'd be willing to bet that 12 billion is the max limit if not past the limit for human populaton.

If you can find a decent chart showing human population growth, even epidemic and wars only show as slight blip on population growth. It would take a full on nuclear war (lets hope not) or massive series of natural disasters (lets hope not again) to seriously impact life on this planet.

So with the population growing the way it is. Add another 400 years of growth to the predicted 12 billion person population in 2100 and we could be looking at about 200 billion or more depending on how you calculate it.

So if it takes 10 billion people to fully inhabit a planet (rough assumption), then humanity would need 20 planets within 500 years from now.


Of course, unless we discover habitable planets within that time, governments will have to impose child limits on people (similar to what china does).

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:25 PM

KUANGAORUI


Look this is not my point, the story is good enough and the charters are fun to watch and that's all that maters and when you start picking apart every inconsistency in every story in the series the show kinda looses its meaning.

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:25 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Quote:

Originally posted by KuangAorui:
Ya if every single person on the planet left now and survived the trip it might work and I am saying right now! We barley have the ships to get 50 people of the plaint right now. not to mention the time it would take a find a solar system suitable and develop the terraforming technologies to make the plaints suitable and the time it would take to get there... need I go on?


We have no idea when they left the earth that was, we don't know how many people left, and we have no idea how long the journey was. For all we know, they left in 2250, the population of the earth was 30 billion, 75% of the population left, and the journey took 100 years.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:27 PM

KUANGAORUI


Quote:

Originally posted by KuangAorui:
Look this is not my point, the story is good enough and the charters are fun to watch and that's all that maters and when you start picking apart every inconsistency in every story in the series the show kinda looses its meaning.


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Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:40 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Inconsistencies do damage the story but Firefly does not have that many internal inconsistencies.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:53 PM

KUANGAORUI


I never said it did, and all stories have some inconsistencies but when you pick at the few it does have you lose a bit of the fun of it. Just enjoy it for what it is.

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 10:09 PM

BELACGOD


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:

Jayne's change of plan was before he got caught by the feds. He was leaving the hospital through a different direction and he didn't tell anyone about it. There's also the part where Wash and Kaylee was monitoring the hospital's transmissions and they didn't hear anything about Jayne being captured until they heard the code which suggests that the feds already knew that River and Simon were in the hospital.




The first part's true, but there's no way for Mal to know it. The second part is another key piece of the puzzle--that chatter would have appeared minutes earlier had they been busted in the Imaging Suite. Although that still could be accounted for by them being caught just a bit later, as Wash's intercepts weren't all that specific.

"Something about ducks..."

Yorg: That still doesn't explain why Mal knew they were at the back door because Jayne'd sold them out, rather than because that's where the Fed station was (if they'd been pinched while Jayne was on the up and up, and then escaped, they'd still have wound up in exactly the same place).

Kuangaroui: I'll grant Joss any kind of wacky science he wants (See me not ask about their semi-hyperdrive. See me not ask!). But if he's messing with the characters and making them act on information they don't know just to further the story, then I'll come down on him like Serenity landing without power.

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 10:19 PM

KUANGAORUI


Quote:

Kuangaroui: I'll grant Joss any kind of wacky science he wants (See me not ask about their semi-hyperdrive. See me not ask!). But if he's messing with the characters and making them act on information they don't know just to further the story, then I'll come down on him like Serenity landing without power.


LOL(semi-hyperdrive, cool) fair enough but the scene didn’t really further the story it mainly served to reinforce Mals seniority over Jayne and to give insight in to his character and his loyalty to his crew.

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 10:23 PM

HOBANIWASHBURNE


Quote:

Originally posted by yorg:
It was easy for Mal to know.

Why was the plan changed without Mal's knowledge? By this time in the series we all know that Mal is in charge and he HATES it when people go against his orders. What Mals says goes.

So Mal must have thought it was weird for Jayne and company to find themselves at the back entrance when they weren't supposed to be there in the first place.

Plus there's the strange behaviour by Jayne during Simon's praise. Which if the first part doesn't give it away, then this surely does.


Now, as to why Mal didn't kill Jayne or tell anyone.

1. Mal knows the alliance and he knows Jayne (which is why he has so little trust for both). Mal knew that the alliance wouldn't give up the reward just like that to some criminal. Jayne didn't know that obviously so he trusted the alliance. But know that Jayne has experienced first hand the lies of the alliance, he wouldn't try to do it again. Jayne is tough, but he's like a big kid; if he gets burned, he learns.

2. Mal knows that Jayne is opportunistic and money hungry, but also that Jayne cares what people think of him. Look back at Jaynestown and see how remorseful and guilty Jayne was; that pretty well defines his deeper character. Mal just wanted to once again make himself very clear to Jayne; he caught him in the act and Jayne sincerly felt bad about what he had done (of course after realising that the alliance are never to be trusted).

3. Also, Jayne had finally realised that the only person who tells it like it is and will always be upfront with him is Mal. So Mal pretty much knew from this point forward Jayne would be much more loyal to him. Notice in Objects in Space that Jayne is defending himself to the Captain about not leaving a gun laying around for River to find, instead of his usual anger at Mal for talking down to him, he backs down and just doesn't want to be blamed.

4. Finally, because Jayne at least wants a little respect from the crew (he knows that they tease him cause he's not that smart), he doesn't want anyone to know (it would be like Jaynestown all over again making him a false hero). So Mal has a huge bargaining chip (aka blackmail) to hold over Jayne's head.



I've been reading through all these and I feel that Yorg summed it up best. I didn't feel it was wrong for Mal to know/catch on. He probably was guessing that Jayne was going to do something based on the knife slash to Jayne's chest and how Jayne's talking in prev. eps that it's 'Mal' who's looking to sell out Simon/River.

As that isn't Mal's way, he's probably been privy to Jayne's thoughts if the opportunity arouse and its been on his radar for quite some time.



"Tis the season for the fireplace. Fa la la la la. La la. La la."

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Saturday, November 12, 2005 10:42 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Quote:

Originally posted by Belacgod:
The first part's true, but there's no way for Mal to know it. The second part is another key piece of the puzzle--that chatter would have appeared minutes earlier had they been busted in the Imaging Suite. Although that still could be accounted for by them being caught just a bit later, as Wash's intercepts weren't all that specific.


Like I said before, Wash and Kaylee were monitoring everyone's location. When Jayne didn't get back, Mal could have pulled up the records of Jayne's location and saw that he deviated from the plan without telling him. As for the coded chatter, it suggests that the feds were waiting for River and Simon because if they had thought that Jayne, River and Simon were just average criminals, they would have called in to ask for idents.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Sunday, November 13, 2005 8:30 AM

FIREFLYFAN278


Jayne's very modest, "let's not talk about this," array of nonverbal messages alone were ample proof that the reason things had gone wrong in the first place related to something Jayne had done. The only thing it could have been was that he had sold them out.

His responses while outside the door just confirmed his guilt.

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