GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Anyone else disappointed?

POSTED BY: SAGRILARUS
UPDATED: Thursday, October 20, 2005 00:05
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 19397
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Saturday, October 8, 2005 6:20 AM

SAGRILARUS


At the risk of having a hit called out on me, I'll keep the details of my opinions quiet. But I was very disappointed with the movie. With any luck, I am the only one. No one else here seems to be expressing that feeling. Just thought I'd toss it out and see if I'm alone or not.


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Saturday, October 8, 2005 6:39 AM

LEAFY


Yes, yes I was. If we use "Firefly" as the benchmark, a perfect 10, "Serenity" compares at about 7.2. "Firefly" was character driven, but "Serenity" was author ego driven, and it showed.

From the box office numbers shown here, I don't think we are alone.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 6:52 AM

HOTHERSALE


Have you seen it more than once? Personally, I found it so disturbing that it was hard to really enjoy the movie the first time round. I enjoyed it MUCH more on subsequent viewings. If you haven't already, I suggest watching it again to see if it's the same for you.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 6:57 AM

SAGRILARUS


Sorry, I'm not going to spend another nine dollars on it.

Select to view spoiler:


It wasn't the death of anybody that bothered me. Frankly, given the script, they should have been down to two SURVIVING at the end of the film. Not sure how Mal survives after being run through with a sword, especially after walking around and fighting for about 20 minutes afterwards. Zoe deserved to be dead, River absolutely should not have survived, the others holding the line pretty much had to survive on awesome-plot-power and deadly-hero-guns -- not a typical crutch for Whedon.


I was far more effected by very contrived dialogue (Jayne uses the phrase "in earnest" for godsake), and a real muddying up of the characters. I made the mistake of watching Our Mrs Reynolds at home before heading to the theater, which just made the contrast that much more stark.

Sag.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 7:01 AM

JADEHAND


I was spoiled on these facts way before I saw the movie. Had time to process. Loved the movie. Best Movie Ever. I think if those who are upset on these 2 facts take time to process, they may enjoy it more the second time 'round. At least I hope so. Maybe not. Either way won't stop my enjoyment of it.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 7:02 AM

HKCAVALIER


Don't worry, Sagrilarus, nobody's gonna put a hit out on you. The board's just been so busy in the past couple days, two of the major threads on the subject have been archived already. You can still find a discussion here:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13444
I wrote a huge post on the subject over there. Many people posted to thank me for putting their feelings into words. I'm sure you'd find others who felt as you do if you went into more detail about your feelings.

I was very disappointed as well. Serenity felt like a two hour long trailer to me. Serenity felt like the show Fox wanted out of Joss three years ago, when he first shopped it to them: Buffy in Space. And even upon reflection, the second of the big damn spoilers still feels like a lame stunt--not that it couldn't have worked, but as it happened in the BDM, it really felt like a throw away.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 7:09 AM

MER


I'm not highly disappointed, just upset of certain things that happen in it. I'll just have to deal b/c there's nothing I can do about it...besides bitch.

I still have questions regarding River. If they were indeed answered, I'll have to dissect the movie on DVD (so I can do replays and etc)

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 7:23 AM

DUCESTECUM


Quote:

Originally posted by sagrilarus:
At the risk of having a hit called out on me, I'll keep the details of my opinions quiet. But I was very disappointed with the movie. With any luck, I am the only one. No one else here seems to be expressing that feeling. Just thought I'd toss it out and see if I'm alone or not.




Where have you been the last few days? Read the post by HKCavilier although it is long it is well worth reading because he told the absolute truth. The flick is a huge disappointment in so many ways and we can all kiss Firefly goodbye.

"And that's not incense!"

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 7:29 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by sagrilarus:
Sorry, I'm not going to spend another nine dollars on it.

Select to view spoiler:


It wasn't the death of anybody that bothered me. Frankly, given the script, they should have been down to two SURVIVING at the end of the film. Not sure how Mal survives after being run through with a sword, especially after walking around and fighting for about 20 minutes afterwards. Zoe deserved to be dead, River absolutely should not have survived, the others holding the line pretty much had to survive on awesome-plot-power and deadly-hero-guns -- not a typical crutch for Whedon.


I was far more effected by very contrived dialogue (Jayne uses the phrase "in earnest" for godsake), and a real muddying up of the characters. I made the mistake of watching Our Mrs Reynolds at home before heading to the theater, which just made the contrast that much more stark.

When you put it that way, it almost feels like an Emperor's New Clothes type o' deal, don'it? I've been watching the DVD's since last weekend and how anyone could mistake this movie for the gritty, nuanced, adult, down to earth reality of Firefly is hard to fathom. Folk's tell me, "Joss said it was gonna be different!" I can handle different. I just have a hard time with shallower and more contrived.

Select to view spoiler:


The non-lethal nature of the reavers reminded me of the shift from Alien to Aliens. In Alien, a single beast was walking death, but in the sequel they faught crowds of the things at a time. Really lowered the stakes a bit. Realism is such a fragile thing in speculative fiction, just a couple extra punches while Mal's still standing and it goes all out of wack for me. People will say, "But didn't you see the punishment Mal took in War Stories?" And I say, first that Mal was in some kind of altered state on the other side of death, and second that he was fighting mere sadists and bullies, not some ninja trained operative who knew how to work pressure points--Mal should have gone down and gone down hard well before the Op got to his special ganglia trick. A single breach of naturalism (like Mal's being able to even move by the end of War Stories) can be forgiven, but when it becomes the norm, I really start to lose interest.



HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 7:32 AM

JASONZZZ




specifically this post,

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13444#186501

But there are a billion other postings expressing some bits and pieces of the same type of sentiment in various different lines of reasoning and analysis scattered all over in different threads...



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Saturday, October 8, 2005 7:35 AM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Quote:

Originally posted by sagrilarus:
Sorry, I'm not going to spend another nine dollars on it.

Select to view spoiler:


It wasn't the death of anybody that bothered me. Frankly, given the script, they should have been down to two SURVIVING at the end of the film. Not sure how Mal survives after being run through with a sword, especially after walking around and fighting for about 20 minutes afterwards. Zoe deserved to be dead, River absolutely should not have survived, the others holding the line pretty much had to survive on awesome-plot-power and deadly-hero-guns -- not a typical crutch for Whedon.


I was far more effected by very contrived dialogue (Jayne uses the phrase "in earnest" for godsake), and a real muddying up of the characters. I made the mistake of watching Our Mrs Reynolds at home before heading to the theater, which just made the contrast that much more stark.

Sag.


Suspension of disbelief. In "Out of Gas" Mal had been shot and he was suffocating and freezing to death and yet he survived. In "War Stories" Wash and Mal were able to get back into action only minutes after getting tortured by Niska, Mal's heart even stopped and yet he was able to fight after that.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 7:59 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
Suspension of disbelief. In "Out of Gas" Mal had been shot and he was suffocating and freezing to death and yet he survived. In "War Stories" Wash and Mal were able to get back into action only minutes after getting tortured by Niska, Mal's heart even stopped and yet he was able to fight after that.

What does the high school english lesson serve? Is Sag s'posed to feel dumb, and realize that he actually enjoyed Serenity? I've read this line of reasoning before, and it really seems absurd in context. For me, Firefly came to the edge of believability plenty of times, but it always came back at the last moment. Serenity, not so much.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 8:07 AM

CS


Firstly, no I wasn't disappointed at all, its everything I could have hoped for.

The deaths did make the film a bit hard to take in first time round. If it wasn't for the fact that the first time was special (prescreening, hence room full of browncoats, Joss message and Nathan & Morena) I would have enjoyed the second time more.

I just got back from my 3rd viewing (not bad seeing as it came out here yesterday) and I didn't enjoy this one quite as much. The heart-aching suspense which I got the 1st and 2nd times wasn't so much. And the 'middle bit' seemed to drag on. I think I'll be waiting till the DVD till I see it again.

Yeh so my advice is see it twice, then wait till the DVD.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 8:13 AM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:What does the high school english lesson serve? Is Sag s'posed to feel dumb, and realize that he actually enjoyed Serenity? I've read this line of reasoning before, and it really seems absurd in context. For me, Firefly came to the edge of believability plenty of times, but it always came back at the last moment. Serenity, not so much.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.


How is this line of reasoning absurd? If you can believe that someone who has used up all of the body’s adrenaline, glucocorticoid, and probably dopamine as well, suffered cardiac arrest, cardiogenic shock, and who knows how much damage to the CNS, and is still remain lucid or even conscious, let alone able to stand or fight, and suffers from no long lasting psychological or physical effects, then most of the stuff in Serenity should not be that hard to believe, they’re probably easier to believe than the whole Niska incident.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 8:14 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13444



Thanks for that. You picked out many points that I've missed.

When I left the theater, I was mad. Then I processed and got enraged. Then I calmed down.

After that, yesterday I watched the first disk of the DVD set and welcome back rage. I'm very happy I didn't have time to re-watch the entire series before the movie; very happy.

A short analysis from me:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=12689#186383
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=12689#188083

I really hope that this isn't the end. I really hope that sales are going to be good enough to justify another movie or getting something back on the air. Really hope.

Because, I don't want it to end this way.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 10:10 AM

SAGRILARUS


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
Suspension of disbelief. In "Out of Gas" Mal had been shot and he was suffocating and freezing to death and yet he survived. In "War Stories" Wash and Mal were able to get back into action only minutes after getting tortured by Niska, Mal's heart even stopped and yet he was able to fight after that.



I think you missed my entire point. The dying (or the lack of it) wasn't what put me off really, it was the complete revision of the characters, and the dialogue that seemed so contrived.

In the TV episodes, the dialogue can be described using one word: "tight." People said what they needed to and were witty without getting speechy. I live for Whedon's dialogue in other projects too. Serenity seemed to just babble on, putting words in the character's mouths that just didn't make sense. Kaylee's line about not having gotten any from anything but a machine was just so contrived, and so COMPLETELY out of character. How many farm girls do you know that talk like that? In the series, that line would never have survived to production. Or it would have been fixed. I fear this film is going to be the target of a dozen phantom edits.

Just never would have thought Whedon would boot the dialogue. Of all things, I thought the dialogue would have been right.

And the character definitions are just so screwed now. Not sure how they'd fix that in the now-very-remote chance that a sequel does indeed get made.

On a completely shallow P.S., do you think it was Kaylee or Zoe that gave Jayne the perm?

Sags.


"Don't tug on that. You never know what it might be attached to."

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 10:50 AM

SLOWSMURF


Keylee's line is certainly not one I would peg as being out of character.

She's always been completely open about such things, I don't see why it's strange that she would say such a thing.(remember her introduction in out of gas? Or "Have good sex!"?)

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 10:54 AM

BELASERA


Kaylee isn't a 'farmgirl'. She is a mechanic, and as such it seems perfectly reasonable for her to be talking about machines. As for her use of said machines being in character, have you forgotten how she got her job?
I honestly did not see anything out of character in the movie, but maybe that's just me.

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 10:57 AM

BELASERA


Oh, but to answer the original question.
No. Not at all.

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:03 AM

GIANTEVILHEAD


SAGRILARUS, I wasn't responding to your complaints about the characters, which are pretty vague, except for the example about Kaylee and the vibrator. I was responding about your inability to suspend disbelief while watching the movie.

As for the dialogue, the show had 14 episodes. Although the characters were well established, they weren't that well established and they do have some personality “fluctuations” between episodes. Plus Kaylee’s line about the vibrator wasn’t that out of character, do you remember how she got discovered by Mal?

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:05 AM

SAGRILARUS


Kaylee is indeed a farm girl, and it's not the nature of the comment that bothered me. It's the way it took eight seconds to spit out something that sounded like it was out of a bad Shakespeare ad lib. The joke is there, the concept is fine, but the actual line,

"Been more'n a year since I had anything twixt my nethers didn't run on batteries."

I just cannot imagine that Jewel was happy when she was reading that on the page. "Joss is boss" got that one onto the screen. I just can't get over the fact that the dialogue was wrong. Joss is legendary for his dialogue.

Sag.


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Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:11 AM

GIANTEVILHEAD


"She likes engines, they make her hot."
"Gravboot ain't your trouble. I seen the trouble plain as day when I was down there on my back before."
"Have good sex."

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:12 AM

SAGRILARUS


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
SAGRILARUS, I wasn't responding to your complaints about the characters, which are pretty vague, except for the example about Kaylee and the vibrator. I was responding about your inability to suspend disbelief while watching the movie.



I suspended my disbelief just fine. I have no concerns with the plot. The characters have been irreversibly changed. Watch the episodes again -- the characters have MAGNIFICENT definition. By the end of the pilot you really have an insight into who they are; you want to know them better. They are clear, concise. They have mysterious aspects, but they are consistent. The film just ignored all that. Pretty vague? I sure am. I have no idea how to describe the fact that the same actors seemed to be playing different people, with different motivations and actions.
Vague is an excellent choice of terms. In the series, the characters weren't vague. Now they are. I have no idea what they would be like if a sequel were to be made. I don't know these people anymore. They are undefinable.

Sag.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:13 AM

BELASERA


I love that line! I've seen the movie 5 times and it gets big laughs in the theatre every time.
I mean, 'Twixt my nethers'! That is exactly why I loved Firefly's lingo, and why I think it carried into Serenity. It's all musical and such.
I really thought the whole thing was darling, and executed with that sort of frankness and humor that make a line like that work for a girl like Kaylee.


"I'll be in my bunk."

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:32 AM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Quote:

Originally posted by sagrilarus:
I suspended my disbelief just fine. I have no concerns with the plot. The characters have been irreversibly changed. Watch the episodes again -- the characters have MAGNIFICENT definition. By the end of the pilot you really have an insight into who they are; you want to know them better. They are clear, concise. They have mysterious aspects, but they are consistent. The film just ignored all that. Pretty vague? I sure am. I have no idea how to describe the fact that the same actors seemed to be playing different people, with different motivations and actions.
Vague is an excellent choice of terms. In the series, the characters weren't vague. Now they are. I have no idea what they would be like if a sequel were to be made. I don't know these people anymore. They are undefinable.

Sag.


Your comments are still pretty vague; you still haven’t given any specific examples. Yes, Mal was darker in the movie and he was more concerned with surviving than protecting the feelings of the crew. Zoe was the same, following orders even if it conflicted with her personal beliefs. Jayne was the same, more concerned with survival than anything else. Kaylee was the same, although less spunky that she used to be. Simon was a bit more aggressive but otherwise unchanged, very protective of River just like in the show. River, she’s probably the character that changed the most, she’s much more lucid and less insane. Unfortunately, Wash, Book, and Inara really didn’t get enough scenes for me to get a reading of their characters, and Inara did seem kind of out of place.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 12:44 PM

SLOWSMURF


The movie WAS different, why can't people grasp that? Liberties were taken when he chose to. Mal/Simon being the most obviously changed.

BASED ON, not a direct continuation.

For example, there's no way in hell Mal from the show would resort to telling the doctor to basically go to hell as he does at the start of Serenity. Once he uttered the words(on the series), "You're on my crew", that remains. I highly doubt Mal would ever take that back except by the other person choosing to leave or Mal himself killing said person. Jayne flatout betrays him on the series, he remains crew.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:53 PM

HOWARD


Well I have only thus far seen the 9 minute on-line trailer and my worst fears were confirmed.
In the show Simon was a nice wuss and that is how he should be. He had members of an underground resistance get River out to him then they got out together. Furthermore while Simon is pretending to be an official the doctor/torturer/spawn of Donald Rumsfeld tells Simon that the subject is being prepared for military applications. In the series he had to learn this information by deduction.

I have had a bad feeling all along about this movie project because I have seen how the system works. The X-files movie was awful and STNG which on TV had drama of depth became dumbed down in their films. The more money the more CGI the less character the less drama the weaker ideas the more absent opinions. The absence of opinion is what the corporate regime wants. It is their condom against political dissent.

The Studios are like the Alliance. There is a policy across all studios against ideas and opinions in big films this is acheived by dumbing down character exposition. I shall wait for the DVD in hope that some of the character exposition especially relating to Inara that was in the early cuts will be put back into the movie.
Deleted scenes I don't want. Just look at the series box set there is an outstanding speech that Zoe has to Simon about war and history that was cut from the pilot. This is all part of high complex of censorship and defacto censorship in a very sophisticated, dictatorial, American capitalist corporate complex. The pressure felt by talent is so strong that the powers that be know they can count on the talent giving it up without even being asked. Sometimes it is demanded while often the fences are staked clear so the talent does not even dare to go there.

It is time that people like Joss Whedon and Marti Noxon understood that they could achieved independence by developing a fresh concept for a DVD series financed in the same way that indie movies are financed. Free from television networks and movie studios today's technology makes this possible along with the independent financing available from the finance sector espcecially for people with well established career credentials. It is not capital that is the problem the problem is capital controlled by a corporate complex.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 2:04 PM

HOWARD


The line is good and typical of Kaylee.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 2:04 PM

HOWARD


The line is good and typical of Kaylee.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 2:06 PM

HOWARD


I agree once Mal says "YOU'RE ON MY CREW" its not a fair weather thing its an all weather thing!

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 2:36 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Simon wasn't a wuss when it came to protecting River. He knocked down the two guys in "Safe," he thought up of the plan to infiltrate the hospital in "Ariel," and he tried to fight Jubal Early even though he knew that he had no chance.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:59 PM

HOWARD


I was not knocking Simon I was using the term with affection he was gentle not Jayne!!

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 4:01 PM

HOWARD


I was not knocking Simon I was using the term with affection he was gentle not Jayne!!

Thinking up the Aerial plan proves he was a thinker not muscle!

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 4:35 PM

SCIFINUT


I was only disappointed in the deaths, but not the movie in general. I loved the movie! Of course, being a movie, it had to have a certain amount of extra action and conflict. So, in that respect, some of the actions of the characters were a litle more pronounced, maybe a little more aggressive, than they would be in one of the tv episodes. Like Mal threatening to shoot everybody if they didn't put the bodies on the hull of the ship, ahd the aggressive scenes between him and Simon were a little much. But I looked past those little things and I found the characters to be true to their tv counterparts. Loved Jayne! Loved Kaylie's comments! Of course, the best part of the firefly series for me was the relationships between the characters and the comedy, but sci-fi movies don't tend to do well with too much of that. So if the extra action and conflict brings more people to the theater, and helps ressurect this show somehow, I'm all for it!
Please, oh please let there be a sequel!

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 4:50 PM

SCIFINUT


Quote:

Originally posted by SlowSmurf:
The movie WAS different, why can't people grasp that? Liberties were taken when he chose to. Mal/Simon being the most obviously changed.

BASED ON, not a direct continuation.

For example, there's no way in hell Mal from the show would resort to telling the doctor to basically go to hell as he does at the start of Serenity. Once he uttered the words(on the series), "You're on my crew", that remains. I highly doubt Mal would ever take that back except by the other person choosing to leave or Mal himself killing said person. Jayne flatout betrays him on the series, he remains crew.



You are right. It was a little different. I just don't think, being that the characters had only been developed over one season, that anything I saw was completely out of character. Yes, Mal was a little aggressive with the Doctor, but remember, Inara had been gone for 8 months or something? There may be some back story in those 8 months that would explain the tension between them. Thank goodnes Jayne was as rougish and predictable as ever!

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 5:06 PM

SCIFINUT


Quote:

Originally posted by sagrilarus:
Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
SAGRILARUS, I wasn't responding to your complaints about the characters, which are pretty vague, except for the example about Kaylee and the vibrator. I was responding about your inability to suspend disbelief while watching the movie.



I suspended my disbelief just fine. I have no concerns with the plot. The characters have been irreversibly changed. Watch the episodes again -- the characters have MAGNIFICENT definition. By the end of the pilot you really have an insight into who they are; you want to know them better. They are clear, concise. They have mysterious aspects, but they are consistent. The film just ignored all that. Pretty vague? I sure am. I have no idea how to describe the fact that the same actors seemed to be playing different people, with different motivations and actions.
Vague is an excellent choice of terms. In the series, the characters weren't vague. Now they are. I have no idea what they would be like if a sequel were to be made. I don't know these people anymore. They are undefinable.

Sag.



I watched the whole series over the past couple weeks, and the only thing that disappoined me a little in the characters was that he made it all about Mal, Simon, and River. For each character there either seemed to be an overabundance or a lack of dialogue. Because of this change in dynamic, it made characters seem different because you expected them to say something at certain points in the movie, but they didn't. I personally found, that what they DID say, however, was completely in character. They just didn't say enough, so it may have seemed contrived in certain circumstances. Am I making any sense? It's late here......

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 5:30 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:

Your comments are still pretty vague; you still haven’t given any specific examples. Yes, Mal was darker in the movie and he was more concerned with surviving than protecting the feelings of the crew.



Mal was most certainly different. Just ask yourself, if Simon would have hit Mal in the series, would Mal have just taken it, or would he have fought back? Truth is, Simon would have gotten somewhat bruised in series Mal.

I'd also like to know what your definition of darker is. Mal was a coward. Mal was angry. That is pretty much it for his emotional range for the movie.


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:

Zoe was the same, following orders even if it conflicted with her personal beliefs.



Not really. If Zoe was the same she would've backed up Mal with his decision to not take on the extra man on the Mule. It wasn't worth the risk when absolute death is involved. Mal had already done his best to save the man when he told them all to get into the vault. Zoe would've known this in the series. But in the movie, she questioned his decision/morality/etc for doing it.


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:

Jayne was the same, more concerned with survival than anything else.



How? When they were planning on going into Reaver territory Jayne didn't protest. But, in the series, just have a Reaver ship pass by scared him enough to start to shake. Plus, he was made far more stupid in the movie than the show.


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:

Kaylee was the same, although less spunky that she used to be.



Kaylee was almost the same. So, we pretty much agree here. She should've played more of a part though.


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:

Simon was a bit more aggressive but otherwise unchanged, very protective of River just like in the show.



LOL. Simon was completely changed. He went from the bumbling fool, remember Jaynes Town when he played the part of the buyer and completely screwed it up. How about whenever he attempted to talk to Kaylee?

But in the movie he went to, I'm so smooth and great under pressure, that I can infltrate one of the most secure military falcilities in the 'verse and pull off an rescue.

Bullshit.


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:

River, she’s probably the character that changed the most, she’s much more lucid and less insane.



Nah, Mal and Simon where the most changed. She just had her story progress too quickly. I don't know what was in the comics (yet), but in the series there were definitly hints at military apps for her. Plus we don't know what Simon might have done for her in the months, show end to movie begin. etc. It is plausible for her to have become that lucid in the time frame given.

I just don't like, how military they made her.


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:

Unfortunately, Wash, Book, and Inara really didn’t get enough scenes for me to get a reading of their characters, and Inara did seem kind of out of place.



Wash and Book were both pretty much footnotes. That pissed me off.

But Inara, entering a fight between Mal and The Operative?!?! Whenever there was a fight in the series, she always just got out of the way (and pulled Kaylee out of the way with her ie the train job). Not to mention, where the hell did she get that flash thingy and know when to use it. Can we say, out of character/not realistic.

Seriously

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 6:13 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Quote:

Mal was most certainly different. Just ask yourself, if Simon would have hit Mal in the series, would Mal have just taken it, or would he have fought back? Truth is, Simon would have gotten somewhat bruised in series Mal.

I'd also like to know what your definition of darker is. Mal was a coward. Mal was angry. That is pretty much it for his emotional range for the movie.


Mal did put River’s life at risk and he knows how protective of River Simon is, plus he did threaten to kill Simon. By dark I mean morbid and detached. Mal was angry a lot but how was he a coward?

Quote:

Not really. If Zoe was the same she would've backed up Mal with his decision to not take on the extra man on the Mule. It wasn't worth the risk when absolute death is involved. Mal had already done his best to save the man when he told them all to get into the vault. Zoe would've known this in the series. But in the movie, she questioned his decision/morality/etc for doing it.

She questioned Mal’s choice to leave Simon and River behind although it wasn’t as direct as the way she questioned Mal in the movie. Plus she probably feels more responsible for the man’s death considering how she was the one who disarmed him.

Quote:

How? When they were planning on going into Reaver territory Jayne didn't protest. But, in the series, just have a Reaver ship pass by scared him enough to start to shake. Plus, he was made far more stupid in the movie than the show.

Jayne does have some decency; look at the end of “Jaynestown,” if given the choice he probably would have sacrificed himself to save that kid’s life and he probably does still have some lingering fear of Mal from the Ariel incident. How did they make Jayne dumber? There was only one Jayne is stupid joke in the movie.

Quote:

LOL. Simon was completely changed. He went from the bumbling fool, remember Jaynes Town when he played the part of the buyer and completely screwed it up. How about whenever he attempted to talk to Kaylee?

But in the movie he went to, I'm so smooth and great under pressure, that I can infltrate one of the most secure military falcilities in the 'verse and pull off an rescue.

Bullshit.


Simon isn’t a bumbling fool when he has to help River.

Quote:

Wash and Book were both pretty much footnotes. That pissed me off.

But Inara, entering a fight between Mal and The Operative?!?! Whenever there was a fight in the series, she always just got out of the way (and pulled Kaylee out of the way with her ie the train job). Not to mention, where the hell did she get that flash thingy and know when to use it. Can we say, out of character/not realistic.


Inara trained Mal to fence, she knows how to fight. Plus she spent a year with Mal; she must have learned something from him, like how to fight dirty.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 6:15 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:

Originally posted by sagrilarus:
At the risk of having a hit called out on me, I'll keep the details of my opinions quiet. But I was very disappointed with the movie. With any luck, I am the only one. No one else here seems to be expressing that feeling. Just thought I'd toss it out and see if I'm alone or not.




You obviously haven't seen my post about Major Spoiler and I'm calling Joss out. Course, my post covers only 2 specific details.

I aim to misbehave!

Firefly items:
For lapel pins and badge holder lanyards
e-mail FireflyGal1@hotmail.com
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Saturday, October 8, 2005 7:51 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:

Mal did put River’s life at risk and he knows how protective of River Simon is, plus he did threaten to kill Simon. By dark I mean morbid and detached. Mal was angry a lot but how was he a coward?



Have you seen the movie? He kept running and running and running. That is until Book got killed. That was pretty much at the end.

He backed down from Simon. I'll say that again. HE BACKED DOWN FROM SIMON.

How much more do you need it spelled out for you?


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:

She questioned Mal’s choice to leave Simon and River behind although it wasn’t as direct as the way she questioned Mal in the movie. Plus she probably feels more responsible for the man’s death considering how she was the one who disarmed him.



There's a difference between, directly questioning him, which is out of character for her.

And you might want to think about this. Here's my opinion but whatever you decide I'll back you.

The fomer is the movie, the latter the series. They are distinctly different.


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:

Jayne does have some decency; look at the end of “Jaynestown,” if given the choice he probably would have sacrificed himself to save that kid’s life and he probably does still have some lingering fear of Mal from the Ariel incident. How did they make Jayne dumber? There was only one Jayne is stupid joke in the movie.



Funny you should mention Jaynestown. I just watched it literally, 4 hrs ago.

So, you're conjecture about him sacrificing himself is no, he wouldn't be willing to do that. There is a difference between being sad or fustrated with something that happened and willing to do something that drastic to change it. You are seeing a kindness that doesn't exist in him.

You do realize that from the same ep you mention, it gets known that he tossed his own partner out of a hovercraft at 20-30 feet out for the sake of profit, right?

Jayne also wouldn't be scared of any reprocussions that long after that incident. 1) It is at least questionable to say that he even thinks about it anymore 2) Everyone already knows what he did; at least Simon, River and Mal knows. It'd be hard to keep something like that a secret.

And how would him objecting to something that Mal proposed be oooo so scary for him? Mal might kill him if he said anything.

Mal: What happens when the money is good enough?
Jayne: Well, that'll be an interesting day.

That ring a bell?

About him being stupid. Next time you see it, just listen to his dialog. There is a difference between making fun of someone that is stupid and being stupid. Of course for the former to hold weight the latter must be true. But, just because the latter is true, doesn't make the former a necessity.


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:

Simon isn’t a bumbling fool when he has to help River.



Actually he is. Remember when he jumped over the railing in Serenity (ep not movie) while the fed was hauling her out? Rather hasty and screwed it up. If Mal hadn't come along there would've been a rather nasty situation.

What about when he tried to help River in Objects in Space?

He is a bumbling fool when he has to help River. Just because he's willing to put himself in danger doesn't change this.


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:

Inara trained Mal to fence, she knows how to fight. Plus she spent a year with Mal; she must have learned something from him, like how to fight dirty.



You are making the leap from trained to fence to knowing how to fight which is completely unjustified.

Just because someone is trained to use a blade in principle, does not mean that you were trained to use it in combat. Ask anyone that's taken a martial arts course. If you are going into a tournament, you are pulled aside for "extra" training. You can read that last part as, ok, we've taught you how to do things. Now let us teach you how to use them.

The two are completely different.

Also, she may have spent a year with Mal. But, there is no indication nor evidence that indicates that level of interaction. In fact, all evidence indicates that Mal did his best to keep Inara out of that world. ie Remember when they stole that gun and couldn't sell it (too hot). Inara said that she could "make some calls" and Mal flatly refused. He didn't want her involved in "that" world.


When it comes down to it, you are using conjecture, exceptions to the rule, and your own feelings thrust upon the movie as support in your arguments. Sorry man, that just doesn't hold water.

In all seriousness, I have no idea where you are coming up with this stuff. I highly recommend you watch the series again.


----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:55 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Have you seen the movie? He kept running and running and running. That is until Book got killed. That was pretty much at the end.


He ran twice, once from the Reavers at the beginning, and then from the Operative. What was he supposed to do? Try to save the town from the Reavers? Take on the entire Alliance by himself?

Quote:

He backed down from Simon. I'll say that again. HE BACKED DOWN FROM SIMON.

How much more do you need it spelled out for you?


Maybe it was because Mal knew that Simon was justified in punching him, not to mention the fact that River was there.

Quote:

There's a difference between, directly questioning him, which is out of character for her.

And you might want to think about this. Here's my opinion but whatever you decide I'll back you.

The fomer is the movie, the latter the series. They are distinctly different.


There is a difference but not a huge one. The movie takes place months after the show, it is possible that some incidents took place during that time strained their relationship and since Mal has become grimmer during the months, he may have simply become unresponsive to Zoe’s passive questioning of his actions.

Quote:

Funny you should mention Jaynestown. I just watched it literally, 4 hrs ago.

So, you're conjecture about him sacrificing himself is no, he wouldn't be willing to do that. There is a difference between being sad or fustrated with something that happened and willing to do something that drastic to change it. You are seeing a kindness that doesn't exist in him.

You do realize that from the same ep you mention, it gets known that he tossed his own partner out of a hovercraft at 20-30 feet out for the sake of profit, right?


The people at Haven were his friends, or at least Book was, and he does care about his friends. He did look quite concerned when Kaylee was shot in the show’s pilot. Somehow I doubt that he was friends with the guy he dumped out of the plane 4 years ago.

Quote:

Jayne also wouldn't be scared of any reprocussions that long after that incident. 1) It is at least questionable to say that he even thinks about it anymore 2) Everyone already knows what he did; at least Simon, River and Mal knows. It'd be hard to keep something like that a secret.

Assuming that another incident didn’t take place during the months between the show and the movie.

Quote:

And how would him objecting to something that Mal proposed be oooo so scary for him? Mal might kill him if he said anything.

Mal: What happens when the money is good enough?
Jayne: Well, that'll be an interesting day.

That ring a bell?


That was months before the movie, it is possible for a person to change, plus that was before Ariel.

Quote:

About him being stupid. Next time you see it, just listen to his dialog. There is a difference between making fun of someone that is stupid and being stupid. Of course for the former to hold weight the latter must be true. But, just because the latter is true, doesn't make the former a necessity.

Give an example of Jayne’s “stupid” dialogue in the movie.

Quote:

Actually he is. Remember when he jumped over the railing in Serenity (ep not movie) while the fed was hauling her out? Rather hasty and screwed it up. If Mal hadn't come along there would've been a rather nasty situation.

What about when he tried to help River in Objects in Space?

He is a bumbling fool when he has to help River. Just because he's willing to put himself in danger doesn't change this.


Not knowing how to fight is not the same as being a bumbling fool. He kept it cool on Ariel and didn’t make any mistakes; he even saved a man’s life without screwing up the mission.

Quote:

You are making the leap from trained to fence to knowing how to fight which is completely unjustified.

Just because someone is trained to use a blade in principle, does not mean that you were trained to use it in combat. Ask anyone that's taken a martial arts course. If you are going into a tournament, you are pulled aside for "extra" training. You can read that last part as, ok, we've taught you how to do things. Now let us teach you how to use them.

The two are completely different.

Also, she may have spent a year with Mal. But, there is no indication nor evidence that indicates that level of interaction. In fact, all evidence indicates that Mal did his best to keep Inara out of that world. ie Remember when they stole that gun and couldn't sell it (too hot). Inara said that she could "make some calls" and Mal flatly refused. He didn't want her involved in "that" world.

When it comes down to it, you are using conjecture, exceptions to the rule, and your own feelings thrust upon the movie as support in your arguments. Sorry man, that just doesn't hold water.

In all seriousness, I have no idea where you are coming up with this stuff. I highly recommend you watch the series again.


The show only lasted 14 episodes. We were basically shown about 10 hours of these people’s lives taken from a span of several weeks or months. We have to make assumptions considering how little information we have. It’s true that there’s no evidence that Inara learned anything from Mal but they’ve only had what, about a total of 30 to 40 minutes, maybe an hour at most, of interaction throughout the entire show and I think that it is reasonable to assume that Inara learned at least a few dirty tricks from Mal or maybe Jayne during the year that she stayed with him even if Mal didn’t want her to. There were almost no significant interactions between some of the characters like River and Wash or Kaylee and Book. I don’t think they’ve ever made a scene where Wash talks to River but we make the assumption that they have talked to each other off screen. Plus most important of all, we don’t know what happened during the months after the show, we have to make our best guesses and I don’t think that it is unreasonable for the changes in the characters to have taken place during that time. I think that River caused a lot of trouble during that time. Without Inara and Book, no one is there to take care of River when Simon is busy and there were probably a lot of incidents with her. The crew probably has a lot of resentment towards River but they know it’s not really River’s fault so they either repress those feelings or channel them towards other things, their missions, themselves, and each other. That’s one of many possible explanations as to why the crew changed. It certainly would have been nice if Joss had made a series of comic books to chronicle Serenity’s journey during the time between the series and the movie but it didn’t happen so we have to use our imagination.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 12:50 AM

MINIME


In answer to the original question... I was fairly determined to be positive about the BDM but... well, I don't know if I'm disappointed, but I am definitely in a kind of mourning.
I've just got back from 6 months in rural Papua New Guinea; I had my firefly DVDs with me and made 1 family of fans (!), I was keeping a distant eye on FFFn, it was a story that spoke to me and my situation.
I stepped off the plane and within 4 hours was in a movie theatre (family not real impressed!). Maybe I need to see it a few more times to truly appreciate it, but it just feels like something that was very precious and important to me is... lost.
This is a personal response and is in no way intended to be a review of the movie; as I said to my brother, I'm suspending judgment until I've seen it 5 times.
Cheers all.

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 1:30 AM

WREN


Quote:

Originally posted by minime:
Maybe I need to see it a few more times to truly appreciate it, but it just feels like something that was very precious and important to me is... lost.



I felt exactly the same way when I first saw Serenity. Then I realised I was comparing it to Firefly and that really was not fair. On my second viewing I really enjoyed the film in its own right.


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Sunday, October 9, 2005 2:06 AM

HOWARD


I agree. I am pissed off with Joss for not adhering to character and narrative consistancy. There is no excuse for not writing a script that retained the facts established in the series.

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 2:06 AM

WREN


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
But Inara, entering a fight between Mal and The Operative?!?! Whenever there was a fight in the series, she always just got out of the way (and pulled Kaylee out of the way with her ie the train job). Not to mention, where the hell did she get that flash thingy and know when to use it. Can we say, out of character/not realistic.



It would be foolish of the guild to send their women out without some form of protection. What are they suppose to do if one of their clients decides to beat them? I had always assumed that they had self defense classes, so had no problem with Inara entering the fight. It's not as though she was a superwoman, the operative took her down in seconds.

It would equally make sense for them to be trained in archery (I would think the rich still hunt), how to use a gun and fencing. They have to be able to fit in any social situation.

In Firefly Mal was generally on equal ground with the person he was fighting, so she left him to it. However, in Shindig he was outclassed, so she stepped into help. It's the same situation with the operative.

There is a cut scene that shows a bit about academy life. The girls are shown learning how to 'pleasure' their client, taking archery lessons, and calligraphy lessons. Personally I think the scene should have been left in because it gives new people a better idea of who Inara is and what she does. The scene is described in the visual companion.

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:10 AM

MINGHUSCHUTNEY


My general experience has been that the people I have encouraged to go see the film (i.e. people who don't even know what Firefly is)enjoyed it a lot more than I have. I suspect the dissappointment is all about expectation and a degree of anti-climax. We have all been waiting for this film for so long and now the verse could be dead to us all be over again. I certainly have not stopped thinking about it since I saw it 3 days ago so some of it must have got under my skin. I agree that for the fan it probably takes a second look to relax enough to enjoy it for what it is.

Firefly blew me away. Its briliant in so many ways. I'm sure I will be watching and enjoying those DVDs for the rest of my life. This film had a lot to live up to. I don't think its fair to expect the same entity that the TV show was to transfer without change to the big screen. This is a film that had to have mass appeal. My experience is that people who see it fresh think its a great night out, so I'd call that a success.

You have to give Joss Whedon a lot of credit for squeezing a story arc that he planned to develop over 50 or so episodes into a quality film that's a couple of hours long. The result isn't exactly Firefly but then Firefly as we know and love it died the minute Fox pulled the plug on it. I hope the film does well. I hope it gives Joss the opportunity to continue to entertain me in ever new and interesting ways, even if that's not in the form of Firefly, Serenity or the BDH's. Having said that I would straight down the multiplex to see Serenity II.


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Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:12 AM

ARAMINA


Those talking about Inara attempting to fight the Operative.

I also assumed that Inara would have had some self defence training for being a companion - most of her clients may have been 'gentlemen' but that's not to say they all were. I don't see her trying to intervene in the fight as out of character at all.

Plus, there is also a lot about Inara's history that we don't know - what was she running from in Firefly?

Plus, Inara knew she was in danger, there was no reason for her not to think that she would have been killed by the Operative, she was cleary terrified of her so had nothing to lose by doing her best to help Mal.

When I think of an interesting signature you'll be the first to know.

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:34 AM

RIVERBIRCH


Quote:

Originally posted by sagrilarus:
At the risk of having a hit called out on me, I'll keep the details of my opinions quiet. But I was very disappointed with the movie. With any luck, I am the only one. No one else here seems to be expressing that feeling. Just thought I'd toss it out and see if I'm alone or not.





First time I saw it, yes. The times after that, no. I love it more each time.


* I swallowed a bug *

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:49 AM

STOWAWAY


Quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
The Studios are like the Alliance. There is a policy across all studios against ideas and opinions in big films this is acheived by dumbing down character exposition. I shall wait for the DVD in hope that some of the character exposition especially relating to Inara that was in the early cuts will be put back into the movie.



Whenever I read stuff like the above, I have the same reaction. Which is that I think you're giving them (in this case, "The Studios") WAY too much credit.

People are stupid and scared. Period. I don't know what you do for a living, but in my work I sometimes have to give presentations at big companies. I always get a little nervous beforehand...I wonder "Do I really know what I think know? Will people see that?"

Then I get to the meeting, often with people who make 10 times as much / year as I do, and I realize that nobody really knows what they're doing. And that I do much more than I was worried about.

People are, for the most part, playing adult...doing and saying things they think they're supposed to. Sure, there are many, many exceptions to this, but again, the point is that people get scared when they don't understand things.

And when that happens, they bring the things in question down to their level so that they can understand them.

And then the people who understood them in the first place are disappointed, and typically point to some type of conspiracy (no offense) because it really does feel like somebody's out to get you. I just don't buy it.

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:52 AM

HOWARD


What I said was not a conspiracy but an analysis of how the culture works.

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