Did Joss paint himself into a corner with Serenity? by OPPYH

Yes and no.

Even if it was the original tv series, eventually things would change.

However he upped the ante to such a level, it is hard to drop back down into the world of almost nobodies that the crew lived in in the series.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 3:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhyreLight:
Well, the characters aren't the same after Miranda. That part's true. But River's comment at the end of the movie about a storm is a wink to the audience that there is soooo much more to come.

Experience the Horribleness!

http://www.drhorrible.com

I agree but I don't see a series but another movie. Joss has already said that he's up for another one, so are the actors, it's the studio and financial movers and shakers.

And Joss left a lot of options open. What changes did the Miranda wave make? Are the Independents going to rise again? If they do will Mal and Zoe join them? Will Book's past be revealed and how will that affect the crew?

Simon and Kaylee, is it just a fling or something else? Will Zoe become either more bad ass or will she retreat? And the most important question of all, Mal and Inara, can they get together and will Joss kill one of them?

So many questions that Joss has to answer.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 3:58 AM

PHYRELIGHT

Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:
Will Zoe become either more bad ass or will she retreat?

Everytime I wonder about that, I look to the last scene between Zoe and Mal and remember her words, "She's tore up plenty, but she'll fly true."

Quote:
And the most important question of all, Mal and Inara, can they get together and will Joss kill one of them?

Probably and... *sad sigh*... probably. Either that or things will get too complicated between them for the relationship to go but so far.

Experience the Horribleness!

http://www.drhorrible.com

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:24 AM

REDDRAGON

Here's something that I've thought about, what if Zoe is Preggers? How would that shake things up?

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:29 AM

PHYRELIGHT

A lot of people have thought about that, actually. And if so, that would make things oh-so much more interesting! (Unkah Mal! Unkah Mal!) This series was destined for a baby anyways because their lives aren't complicated enough!

Experience the Horribleness!

http://www.drhorrible.com

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:52 AM

REDDRAGON

In-friggin'-deed

____________________________________________________
If you can't walk, crawl. If you can't crawl, find someone to carry you.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:52 AM

QUOTE Did Joss paint himself into a corner with Serenity? UNQUOTE

YES! (But it doesn't have to be that way...)

My fear is that Joss, in his quest for "realism",
has cut off major-ly interesting storylines about
Simon and River's future, Zoe and Wash's future, Mal and Inara, because of killing or separating characters.
Characters being "Jossed" in the words of the Australian Q&A participant.
He's already wiped out the whole Zoe and Wash dynamic.
Gee, I can hardly wait for him to break up Kaylee and Simon (which he has alluded to) so it feels "real".
Oh Boy! Maybe he'll KILL Simon and not just break 'em up!
I can hardly wait!

My fear was Joss crapping all over his own show in the name of drama and cuz everybody KNOWS he's a genius, fans just nod their heads and say, "Yes, of course that was the dramatic choice he HAD to make".
My response? BU(($H!T!

I watched a show about people who could commit criminal acts armed with deadly weapons while still being the GOOD guys to escape reality.

Not to have my nose rubbed in more reality.
So what do I want?

Wash back.
Wash being saved by Simon adds exciting new dramatic tension for the characters. Zoe would now "owe" loyalty to two people; Mal for saving her and Simon for saving Wash. A viable plot/character development would be her journey to her not owing anybody, which would strengthen her relationship with her husband, Wash. ("What this marriage needs is one less husband") And Mal would have less of a subordinate and more of a partner. And Zoe would be an even stronger female character; but dramatically MADE stronger thru growth, not contrivance.

I LOVE the potential storylines and character development that grow out of Wash being saved. I am disheartened and depressed at the downward spiral that is inevitable if Wash is removed from the Firefly equation.

In my mind, Wash lives. I feel so strongly about his place in the Firefly dynamic that if no more Firefly can come after Serenity without dead Wash, I'd rather it end at Serenity and allow me to finish it out in my own mind in a way that makes me happy. ( My "Wash Lives" plotline.)

Joss creates GREAT fictional characters to draw an audience in, but it is my opinion that he loses much of that audience because of his insistence on killing off the very characters he attracted the audience WITH.

Look at the two big movies of summer 2008.
Ironman
Dark Knight
Both huge hits and both true to what they were.
Ironman was fun and the Dark Knight was...dark.
If the filmmakers had tried to inject more "realistic" tragedy into Ironman, it would have ruined the movie. Once a motivational character is killed (Book in Serenity, the doctor in Ironman) a fun movie doesn't support any more tragic reality without losing its uplifting quality. Book's death in Serenity, and the doctor's death in Ironman were dramatically important to the main characters' growth in both movies. But the Ironman creators knew not to bring their movie down after that, and the commercial success of the movie stems from that. Serenity was certainly not a less good movie than Ironman, but it wasn't true to its own nature. And it paid for that misunderstanding of its own nature with a poor showing at the box office.

Everybody vilifies FOX, but thank God they insisted on lightening up Mal and the tone of the series.
Mark my words, if it weren't for that meddling, Firefly would have faded into obscurity.
I don't know if you remember the Australian Q&A,
but the question Joss asked the audience was whether they preferred more of the movie or more of the series.
He even prefaced their response with "I think I know which it is".
The audience strongly said "Firefly" and Joss nodded as tho' that was what he expected.
Although there are fans who like the dark misery stuff, the uplifting elements of Firefly/Serenity are what create an ENDURING fandom.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 5:45 AM

EMPIREX

Well said, Penn. I absolutely agree with you.

If we can't have Wash in more Firefly, at least we have fanfiction. *sigh*

"Can you, for a moment, imagine how depressing it is to teach one thousand years of masculine ineptitude? Why do you think there are so few women historians? I'll tell you why. Because history is not such a frolic for women as it is for men... History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. History is women following behind with a bucket and a mop." - Alan Bennett, "The History Boys"

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 6:55 AM

Well, Joss did say in the Serenity Visual Companion that if a sequel was made, he has every intention on bringing Wash and Book back. He said it was gonna be in a cool way too, not that they had twins or were cloned or something. If anyone could, it's Joss. He brought back Colossus in the comics and it made sense. He did it in a cool way.

Anyway, here's my take on how to bring both characters back.

Lets say the crew left Haven, also leaving Book behind. Something tells me they wouldn't have strapped his dead body to the hull. Anyway, not long after Serenity leaves an Alliance ship arrives to inspect the damage. They find Books body and realize who he is. Remember the officer in the episode "Safe"? They imiediatly gave Book medical attention. Same here. They take Book aboard their ship and "fix" him. Not just for who he is, but because they feel he can tell them about Serenity and where River is.

Same with Wash. The crew was forced to leave Serenity very quickly after Wash was killed. We know the Alliance was there too cause they showed up after River killed the reavers. They would've first searched the ship. Finding Wash, they would also feel like he could give them much needed information about the crew of Serenity. So, they take his body as well.

Now, you might be wondering how the Alliance "fix" both Wash and Book.

Wetware.

Remember what Tracey was transporting in the episode "The Message"? Organs. "Super" organs. Who's to say the Alliance can't replace the damaged organs in Book and Wash with wetware? After all, they wouldn't have been dead long.

We could then say that the funeral at the end of Serenity simply used monuments. Doesn't mean the actuall bodies were buried there.

That would make for a cool story for Serenity 2. Wash and Book are alive, being questioned by the Alliance. Serenity finds out about this. How?

The Operative.

He doesn't become part of the crew, but Mal get's a tip from the Operative on what the Alliance has done.

So, with River being the temporary pilot, Serenity takes off on an adventure to rescue Book and Wash from the Alliance!

I can just picture the scene when Wash enters the bridge again. He sits down in the pilot's chair. Sets his dinosaurs out, and hits the 3 switches, ready for take off!

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:04 AM

PLATONIST

I see no Drama in having Simon bring Wash back and alive for Zoe. Zoe made her choice to stay loyal to Mal and her role on Serenity rather than leave with her husband, when he wanted to, (see his comic fantasy). He died a hero doing his job to save his family. Why take that away from him? Zoe's character growth will come from her grief and acceptance of his death, like the old saying, "what doesn't kill ya, will make ya stronger and wiser". There is potential for story writing here. Either, by being that new single mom or a returning Dust Devil.

And, Mal doesn't need anymore partners in crime. He has River, Zoe, Jayne, Kaylee, and Simon. What he needs is to love a woman, that loves him back (Inara) and make babies with her (a family) so he can emotionally pull himself out of the Valley and he can start by being man enough to tell her so. Again, potential for story writing. A very long one, knowing, Joss.

Simon, Kaylee, Inara, and River are young enough to have a life time of stories. So, I'm not sure of where this thinking comes from, that because one character dies there is no more room for storytelling. Joss kills his characters because people do die in real life drama. That’s the way it is, but life goes on.

Unfortunately, Serenity, metaphorically killed Firefly. These characters won’t be seen in a series, other than movie sequels. The actors are busy (thank goodness), and are getting older. Movie sequels make the most sense or maybe a mini series.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:18 AM

Well, I don't think people are worried about Wash and Book's death causing a lack of stories. Like Joss said, you can take all nine characters and have nine different spin-offs.

I think it's more of an matter of having "the whole" crew back.

If we really want to start talking about the rest of the crews future, I think it would be off the ship. I mean let's face it. If Mal and Inara get together and have kids, I see Mal starting a ranch. Because at that point, he wouldn't need Serenity anymore, in my opinion. Serenity is his love because it fills a void. If he were to marry Inara, neither one would really be running to or from anything.

Jayne would leave Serenity because he'd get paid more somewhere else since Mal left.

Simon and River almost left in the movie. Wouldn't take much for them to leave. If Simon and Kaylee married, they would leave as well. Raise their family somewhere safe. They'd be able to make a living fixing ships and people.

Not sure what Zoe would do. Her story has the potential to become tragic if Mal and Inara got together. Zoe had two things to take care of. Mal and Wash. With Wash dead and Mal not really needed her anymore, her life would kind of be up in the air.

The point is this. Serenity is the thing they all need to fill the voids in their life. This made up family is what they live for. Once you start introducing real family into the equation, the need for Serenity diminishes. That's why I've never been a fan of Mal and Inara getting together. I've never been a fan of anyone having babies either.

The phrase "Happily ever after" is put at the end of stories for a reason. Once everyone is happy and has what they want, the story is over.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
I see no Drama in having Simon bring Wash back and alive for Zoe. Zoe made her choice to stay loyal to Mal and her role on Serenity rather than leave with her husband, when he wanted to, (see his comic fantasy). He died a hero doing his job to save his family. Why take that away from him? Zoe's character growth will come from her grief and acceptance of his death, like the old saying, "what doesn't kill ya, will make ya stronger and wiser". There is potential for story writing here. Either, by being that new single mom or a returning Dust Devil.

And, Mal doesn't need anymore partners in crime. He has River, Zoe, Jayne, Kaylee, and Simon. What he needs is to love a woman, that loves him back (Inara) and make babies with her (a family) so he can emotionally pull himself out of the Valley and he can start by being man enough to tell her so. Again, potential for story writing. A very long one, knowing, Joss.

Simon, Kaylee, Inara, and River are young enough to have a life time of stories. So, I'm not sure of where this thinking comes from, that because one character dies there is no more room for storytelling. Joss kills his characters because people do die in real life drama. That’s the way it is, but life goes on.

Unfortunately, Serenity, metaphorically killed Firefly. These characters won’t be seen in a series, other than movie sequels. The actors are busy (thank goodness), and are getting older. Movie sequels make the most sense or maybe a mini series.

For once Platonist, I totally agree with you. There's also more conflict between Mal and Inara and Mal settling down doesn't mean that he or any of the crew will leave Serenity

And life does go on after the death of loved ones. I found that out at 18 when my father died suddenly and again now at 48. My Mom passed at the end of May. Life is different, but it goes on.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 8:45 AM

PLATONIST

I dunno Slowhand; I've never felt much of a Zoe/Mal/Inara triangle vibe. I think all three could still co exist on Serenity. Wash/Zoe and Mal did. Zoe's role has always been Mal’s working partner. She doesn't fulfill Mal's romantic idealism or he wouldn’t be looking Inara's way. They've never been that intimate beyond the jobs or Wash wouldn't have made his way into Zoë’s heart.
All love and need Serenity in their own way, why would they leave or that change? Besides, Mal and Inara have enough obstacles to overcome without throwing Zoe in the mix. She needs to arc on her own to gain strength to keep going, and there you have the stories.

And isn't it inevitable that eventually all characters will move on and start families of their own (those that are still alive), otherwise the verse becomes cartoonish. Some may stay or choose to leave. Nothing lasts forever, except family and love.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 9:02 AM

GORRAMGROUPIE

A thought about future Firefly:

Do they have cloning tech? Surely the Alliance does, we're cloning sheep now, why not people in the future?
IF that is the case, what would happen if Wash was killed, but for some reason the Blue Hands decided to clone him? Then he could be an agent provocateur, inserting himself back into the crew, for some twisted purpose he may or may not know.

Or as far as a new series, I wouldn't be upset if Joss just picked up from the end of Season Only and went forward, and just make the movie a "dream sequence" so that we get all the characters back, and the story line continues on.

My two cents anyway.

'Who are you and how did you get in here?' 'I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.'
Police Squad

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 9:21 AM

@ slowhand, You're also forgetting that Mal doesn't WANT to be on land.

and why would Inara willingly throw away what she believes in to be with Mal? she wouldn't = no happy ending for them two. (if she did, she wouldn't be the same person..)

As for a Mal/Zoe vibe, no. Just no. I thought that War Stories went to great lengths to dispel any possibilities of that happening.

A good storyline to explore is Zoe becoming captain (but under different circumstances than what mal4prez is exploring.) - only problem would be getting to a situation where that would be possible. Getting rid of Mal in a believable fashion is hard, especially if you work towards a sudden but inevitable return.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 11:27 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

You might as well ask if Joss painted himself into a corner when he killed off Jenny Calendar, Angelus, Joyce Summers, Buffy Summers, and Tara Maclay.

The answer to either question is no.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 11:36 AM

Yeah, no corner here. Joss is a wizard that way.

Agreeing Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 11:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:

And life does go on after the death of loved ones. I found that out at 18 when my father died suddenly and again now at 48. My Mom passed at the end of May. Life is different, but it goes on.

And was the death of your parents entertainment?
That is a totally cruel question, but it speaks to the difference between fiction for entertainment and real life.

Death and reality are things we deal with, and learn to move on from.

I look to fiction as entertainment. If I want unhappy endings, all I gotta do is wake up! But please keep in mind that I acknowledge that my bias runs to the fact that I like my entertainment to be FUN and I expect life to be tempered by MISERY, so when entertainment is tempered by MISERY it becomes a reflection of life and ceases to be entertainment. Good entertainment resonates of real life without getting sucked into dwelling on real life drawbacks.

I offer my sincere condolences to ncbrowncoat for the real-life loss of your parents.
But I guess I'm surprised that you would want that real-life saddness mimicked in your entertainment.

I'm not entertained by having fictional characters (that I've been led to be emotionally invested in) killed off as a form of audience manipulation. I will miss Book but his death was a more acceptable fit than Wash's.
Books death was important to the storyline and character development because Book was the catalyst to Mal regaining a little bit of his "rudder". Book's casual murder by the Operative and his dying wish, nay, DEMAND that Mall "believe" again made Mal and crew confront River's Miranda secret, rather than just run. Wash was sacrificed meaninglessly as a plot gimmick to create peril.

I understand the idea of killing characters for dramatic effect, but my whole point is that at no point is the show (or a Serenity sequel) made better by the loss of Wash as compared to what that character brings to the table dramatically. If we "had" to kill off a fictional character I would agree with this reasoning but we don't "have to" kill off anybody. Its a work of fiction. There is no REAL peril in any of it.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 11:55 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I suppose you need to clarify you definition of the word entertainment. In my opinion Shakespeare is entertainment, but also painfully real. Should we rewrite his plays to excise any deaths you don't care for?

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:

And was the death of your parents entertainment?

The month after my Mom died from cancer, I went to see a movie titled Bright Lights, Big City, in which Michael J. Fox's Mom dies from same. Yeah, it hit REAL close to home, but the story it told was powerful, and I even found it somewhat cathartic, much like I did the Buffy ep The Body.
I see nothing wrong with a creator making creative decisions about his characters, even to the point of removing them to spell out that life ain't always guaranteed.

Jossisall

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
I suppose you need to clarify you definition of the word entertainment. In my opinion Shakespeare is entertainment, but also painfully real. Should we rewrite his plays to excise any deaths you don't care for?

But please keep in mind that I acknowledge that my bias runs to the fact that I like my entertainment to be FUN and I expect life to be tempered by MISERY, so when entertainment is tempered by MISERY it becomes a reflection of life and ceases to be entertainment. Good entertainment resonates of real life without getting sucked into dwelling on real life drawbacks.

That is my definition, so I admit I don't look to tragedy for entertainment.
Shakespeare is not in the same vein as Firefly as entertainment.
I don't care for Serenity becoming a tragedy, when Firefly was NOT.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 12:21 PM

SWISH

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
I look to fiction as entertainment. If I want unhappy endings, all I gotta do is wake up! But please keep in mind that I acknowledge that my bias runs to the fact that I like my entertainment to be FUN and I expect life to be tempered by MISERY, so when entertainment is tempered by MISERY it becomes a reflection of life and ceases to be entertainment.

And what I like about Joss is that he goes beyond entertainment, doesn't present hollow fake idealizations of life.

Quote:
Good entertainment resonates of real life without getting sucked into dwelling on real life drawbacks.

You seem to be laying down a rule where maybe you have no right. When you write your own show, you can take your audience into fantasy land by making everything perfect and safe and happy. Joss chooses differently. Speaking for myself, I must say: Thank god he does!

Quote:
I'm not entertained by having fictional characters (that I've been led to be emotionally invested in) killed off as a form of audience manipulation.

All entertainment is audience manipulation. You appear to feeling bitter that this particular manipulation was a sad one, rather than a show coaxing you into some happy fantasyland for two hours. Which is understandable, if you went into Serenity thinking it was the Little Mermaid. (Why would anyone think that?)

If Wash's death bugs you too much, watch Alan Tudyk on Dodge Ball or something to assure yourself that no one actually died. Or write some fanfic about Wash, so the character can still be alive for you. See? It's all good.

Quote:
I understand the idea of killing characters for dramatic effect, but my whole point is that at no point is the show (or a Serenity sequel) made better by the loss of Wash as compared to what that character brings to the table dramatically.

MANY would disagree with you. I do! I thought Wash's death added a lot. The whole end of the movie was very scary just because anyone was fair game. The death also made this fantasy world more believable (to me) because death can be, and most often is, meaningless. When every death in a show is played out like the Shepherd's, all carefully played out to have a well defined effect on the plot, I start to see nothing but the hand of the writer. The fantasy is ruined for me.

Quote:
If we "had" to kill off a fictional character I would agree with this reasoning but we don't "have to" kill off anybody. Its a work of fiction. There is no REAL peril in any of it.

And there is no REAL happy family bonding in the Brady Bunch either, just actors faking something that does not exist. And no REAL magical joyous wedding at the end of the Little Mermaid. Ariel didn't HAVE to get her man, cause she's not real, so what's the point?

You see what I'm saying?

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 12:23 PM

If I want light and fluffy entertainment all the time I'd only read romance novels and watch ABC Family.

Granted there are times that that's what I want, then there are others when I want to be challenged and reminded that real life is messy, sometimes tragic and everything can't be wrapped up neatly in 60 minutes or 2 hours with a happy ending for everyone.

For me, Firefly and Serenity came about the time my Mom's health was getting worse in early 2006. Her cancer had come back and she was enduring radiation therapy and then a fall last January that broke her hip followed by a downward spiral in health culminating in her death this May.

Mal and the crew's journey (along with countless friends I have made at this board and other boards) helped to keep me going. It taught me that matter how bad things got you just held, held until some semblance of a plan evolved. Usually Plan A went south, just like for the crew, but Plans B,C and D and so on succeeded in some form and you coped with it.

Back to the topic. We have what Joss gave us. Book and Wash dead. Zoe grieving, River half way sane and Mal and Inara not quite sure where they are going. Simon and Kaylee together (at least for the moment) and Jayne, well I think Jayne has changed a bit too. But plenty of stories to be told.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 12:31 PM

Firefly was never a fairytale.

The series has its dark moments with death, torture and more death.

The series, while fun, was less about fun and more about surviving misery. About people who lose everything (including hope?) and still march on.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 12:53 PM

PLATONIST

Sorry to here about your Mom ncbrowncoat.

And I liked what you said about dealing with what Joss left us with. He himself admits during the Aussie Q&A that the verse dramatically changes after Miranda and that's just the way it is, but it does move the story forward and I'd like a little more movement in the form of a sequel.

And I don't think anyone can anticipate what these characters will do in the future, i.e. Inara's professional conflict, Simon's and Kaylee's sex commitment, River's saneness and piloting, etc...never say never.
It’s really all up to Joss who absolutely DID NOT write himself into a corner.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 1:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:

Sorry to here about your Mom ncbrowncoat.

And I liked what you said about dealing with what Joss left us with. He himself admits during the Aussie Q&A that the verse dramatically changes after Miranda and that's just the way it is, but it does move the story forward and I'd like a little more movement in the form of a sequel.

And I don't think anyone can anticipate what these characters will do in the future, i.e. Inara's professional conflict, Simon's and Kaylee's sex commitment, River's saneness and piloting, etc...never say never.
It’s really all up to Joss who absolutely DID NOT write himself into a corner.

Thanks and Amen!

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 1:57 PM

JAYNESMANE

I don't think so. Wasn't it stated somewhere that all of the events in Serenity would have happened in a "Firefly Season 2" ?

Even if the events of Serenity wouldn't have happened, the characters would have grown and series changing events would have happened regardless. Firefly would have been a terrible show if it remained the same every episode, constantly resetting it's characters. Clearly from season 1 the series didn't do this - it's characters had such depth and in such a short time grew so very much. The plots grew too. So, I think the answer is no. The series grew. Serenity was part of that growth. Either way change was 'acommin. Enjoy the Firefly universe as it continues to grow, as it would have had it remained on television, otherwise you're living in the past.

---
http://www.freewebs.com/optics233/index.htm - my website - learn how to make money online filling out surveys.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 2:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:
If I want light and fluffy entertainment all the time I'd only read romance novels and watch ABC Family.

Yep.
All my best to you, man.

Beenthereisall

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 2:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by swish:
And what I like about Joss is that he goes beyond entertainment, doesn't present hollow fake idealizations of life.

You are twisting what I'm saying by equating uplifting, positive entertainment with "hollow fake idealizations of life".

Quote:
You seem to be laying down a rule where maybe you have no right. When you write your own show, you can take your audience into fantasy land by making everything perfect and safe and happy. Joss chooses differently. Speaking for myself, I must say: Thank god he does!

I'm not laying down a rule but rather, I spent a number of (apparently wasted) words and examples to put forth MY opinion that Serenity isn't true to its own nature; and it paid for Joss not knowing how far you can push an audiences' buttons with a $25 million box office gross; as compared to Ironman (which got it right) doing over ten times that business.

Quote:
All entertainment is audience manipulation. You appear to feeling bitter that this particular manipulation was a sad one, rather than a show coaxing you into some happy fantasyland for two hours.

Once again you demean my position (Firefly was realistic AND uplifting) by making the leap that I think Serenity should have been "some happy fantasyland for two hours".
You also blew off my whole point that Book's death serviced the plot and character in the story whereas Wash's death was aimed at creating an audience reaction. But based on the quote below, what you seek from a story is 180 degrees out from what I look for...

Quote:
When every death in a show is played out like the Shepherd's, all carefully played out to have a well defined effect on the plot, I start to see nothing but the hand of the writer. The fantasy is ruined for me.

See, I'm the opposite!
Book's death serviced the story,
(makes the story real to me)
Wash's death was the writer saying,
"be scared,audience, I'm the writer and I-Can-Kill-Them-All!"

Quote:
You see what I'm saying?

Yes I do, and I don't agree with you and that's fine.
But it isn't necessary to demean my points to present yours.

And I believe the failure of Serenity to reach a mass audience like
Ironman (uplifting and positive)
or The Dark Knight (just...dark)
is that it tried to be too many things.
I believe killing Wash is one of several examples where Serenity lost its way and alienated audiences, to the detriment of seeing more of the 'verse on the big OR little screen.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 2:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
MY opinion that Serenity isn't true to its own nature

As Darkness said in Legend, "All things change, lady."

I would not have killed off Wash.
But I am not Joss.
Or Buddha.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 3:06 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
Quote:
I'm not laying down a rule but rather, I spent a number of (apparently wasted) words and examples to put forth MY opinion that Serenity isn't true to its own nature; and it paid for Joss not knowing how far you can push an audiences' buttons with a $25 million box office gross; as compared to Ironman (which got it right) doing over ten times that business.

It's ridiculous even trying to compare the two films. Iron Man had the higher gross not because it is a better film (it most definitely is not) but rather because of its pre-sold nature. A high-profile superhero movie from Marvel with ten times the promotion from Paramount as Universal did for Serenity, plus a known commodity in Robert Downey Jr. as the lead. Compare that with the relatively unknown television series that was the basis of Serenity, one which the majority of movie-goers had never heard of (and still haven't), featuring no big name stars.

Hell, you didn't even join this site until nearly a year after Serenity premiered in theaters and about six months after it came out on dvd, probably about the time it started airing on HBO and Cinemax. Did you see it in the theater? If not, how can you now judge what it was about it that didn't sell itself? People who do not see an unknown movie on its first release usually don't do so because they have heard negative things about events in the movie, but rather because they haven't heard anything about it, period.

I don't think anyone is trying to tell you that you can't have your own opinion, just that the majority of us don't agree with it.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 3:32 PM

SWISH

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
You are twisting what I'm saying by equating uplifting, positive entertainment with "hollow fake idealizations of life".

You said: "when entertainment is tempered by MISERY it becomes a reflection of life and ceases to be entertainment." And you have the authority to set down this definition? It's one thing to say: I didn't find it entertaining. It's another to lay down a definition of entertainment and placing Serenity outside of it. As my mama used to say: who died and left you in charge?

You also said: "Good entertainment resonates of real life without getting sucked into dwelling on real life drawbacks." So you don't want the negative aspects of real life in your entertainment. That's fine. But to me, this kind of entertainment is an idealization, and often comes off as fake and hollow.

Note that I call the *entertainment* fake and hollow, not you. It was not my intent to demean you personally. I'm sure you're a rocking dude. Or chick.

Quote:
I'm not laying down a rule but rather, I spent a number of (apparently wasted) words and examples to put forth MY opinion that Serenity isn't true to its own nature; and it paid for Joss not knowing how far you can push an audiences' buttons with a $25 million box office gross; as compared to Ironman (which got it right) doing over ten times that business.

I believe it is not your job or mine to define Firefly's nature. That job is Joss's. We can like what he does with it, or not, but to call it *wrong* (as you seem to be doing, sorry if I'm misinterpreting) seems a bit much. Defining it as "not entertainment." Whatever! I don't like the movie as much as the series, but when I sit down and watch it I'm still pretty damned entertained!

Also, if box office revenue is how you define the proper "nature" of entertainment, then how about those ratings numbers when Firefly first aired, huh? That show sure must have sucked!

Quote:
Once again you demean my position (Firefly was realistic AND uplifting) by making the leap that I think Serenity should have been "some happy fantasyland for two hours".

I don't demean your position. You have every right to it. I simply state my own opinion: entertainment that must avoid any negative aspects of real life is fantasyland.

Not that there's anything wrong with fantasyland. I've read a bodice ripper or two in my time. But I disagree with imposing this form on Serenity. Firefly had plenty of grit, and if it didn't go so far as killing a beloved character, surely that's only because there were so few episodes. Don't fool yourself into thinking it wouldn't have happened eventually. I believe someone already posted that Joss was planning on killing a main character at some point.

Quote:
You also blew off my whole point that Book's death serviced the plot and character in the story whereas Wash's death was aimed at creating an audience reaction.

I didn't blow that off. My point was that ALL entertainment is about getting an audience reaction. To cherry pick some event as too much of this and say it ruins the whole movie seems a bit of a low blow. If that's what it did for you, that's a shame. But don't pull the whole movie down, calling it "not entertainment", because you disagree with one choice.

Again, there's a difference between saying you weren't entertained and saying that it's not entertainment.

I do see your point that Wash's death may have destroyed your suspension of disbelief. But here's a question: if Serenity 2 came out and involved things that directly follow from Wash's death... say, maybe Joss has always been planning that River's Academy has a division for building Robocops out of dead pilots. This was to be the foundation of Firefly season 3, Zoe's battle with her Robopilot dead husband. Once you were done ridiculing the stupid plot, would you forgive Joss for killing off Wash? Because there was plotty motivation and it wasn't solely for audience reaction?

Quote:
See, I'm the opposite!
Book's death serviced the story,
(makes the story real to me)
Wash's death was the writer saying,
"be scared,audience, I'm the writer and I-Can-Kill-Them-All!"

But didn't Book's death say: "I'm the writer and I want Mal to go out to Miranda now, and the only way I can motivate him to do that is to kill this character."

It's all the same game, in my mind. The guiding hand of the writer can be seen in everything, if you look close enough.

Quote:
And I believe the failure of Serenity to reach a mass audience like
Ironman (uplifting and positive)
or The Dark Knight (just...dark)
is that it tried to be too many things.

LOL! Boy do we disagree. I think the BDM needed to do more. The series had romance, drama, action, sci-fi, thriller, comedy, all of that. The movie was chopped down to a space action movie with plot plot plot plot plot. And some quirky dialogue. Constant plot, lots of danger and action, very few quiet moments of character development. (Before other people jump on me: Of course, the movie couldn't do all that in two hours, but I feel the choice had more to do with marketing. The studio asked: how the hell do we market something as undefinable as Joss's verse? So he had to choose one genre to focus on, and went with fast-paced adventure. Sucks for Morena - her scenes ended on the cutting room floor because there was no time for romance. Joss said so himself!)

Anyway, I don't think Wash's death had anything to do with the low box office numbers. It was just a tough thing to start with - a movie isn't long enough to get an audience to properly bond with so many characters, while also delivering material for the die hard fans. The fact that so many new fans did bond with it, and went to find the series and then came here, speaks volumes.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 3:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:

Hell, you didn't even join this site until nearly a year after Serenity premiered in theaters....

I don't think anyone is trying to tell you that you can't have your own opinion, just that the majority of us don't agree with it.

When I joined doesn't affect the rightness or wrongness of my opinions.
And:
I don't claim to speak for the majority of Firefly/Serenity fans BUT I don't think you should, either.

While some (including Joss) may think Wash's death was a good idea at the time,
I haven't heard ANYONE say,
"Boy I sure am glad Wash is dead!"

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by swish:
I believe it is not your job or mine to define Firefly's nature. That job is Joss's.

So he (Joss) had to choose one genre to focus on, and went with fast-paced adventure.

And once he "defined" the genre, I feel he needed to be true to THAT nature.

Quote:
The fact that so many new fans did bond with it, and went to find the series and then came here, speaks volumes.

And that is the success of Serenity.
I just feel that the downer elements put into the action climax kept it from sealing the deal.

That's OK, I'm doing the 'verse my own way.
Firefly Fan Film, "Fool Me Twice".
costumes seen here:
http://fireflydvd.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3541&start=30

about half way down the page.

See, this Alliance sergeant realizes that the Unification he fought for isn't all it was cracked up to be.
Sorry folks; happy ending.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:32 PM

Um....I didn't mean Zoe and Mal would have a romantic interest in each other, for those that thought that. I never said that. What I meant was protecting Mal was one of the things that gave Zoe purpose. If he settled down, he wouldn't need her to be at his right hand anymore. His life and purpose would have changed.

There's several schools of thought here and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm of the group that likes my entertainment to be...entertaining. Yes you need drama. Yes people die. But to me, killing off beloved characters goes beyond keeping it real. That's a realness I don't want in my entertainment. To me, it's like watching a new Batman movie and Batman get's killed 5 minutes into the thing. The rest of the movie is told from Gordon's POV. Well, that may be real, but as a Batman movie, it would be pretty disapointing.

I'm of the group that wants the whole crew back. I'm not interested in seeing Zoe live life as a widow. I'm not interested in seeing Mal and Inara married with kids. Those aren't the characters I fell in love with. That's just not Firefly to me.

But that's just me.

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 6:01 PM

TUJIAOZUO

Quote:
Do they have cloning tech? Surely the Alliance does, we're cloning sheep now, why not people in the future?
IF that is the case, what would happen if Wash was killed, but for some reason the Blue Hands decided to clone him? Then he could be an agent provocateur, inserting himself back into the crew, for some twisted purpose he may or may not know.

Even though we're talking about SciFi and let's face it, cloning has been done many times in SciFi (the first reason why I doubt Joss wouldn't visit it), cloning has been found to be something entirely different than what we all think. Just because another being is created from a copy of someone's genetic code, doesn't mean the copy will be exactly like the original. Often there can be physical and personality differences making the copy it's own unique self. They could clone Wash, but it may not look nor act like Wash, Clone!Wash could be six inches taller with green eyes and a distaste for Hawaiian shirts and dinosaurs (as well as the quiet type even). Even though I'm totally against rising the dead, the SuperOrgan Replacement mentioned somewhere above would be my vote for fixing up Wash and Book, though I think if the Alliance had taken Wash's body from Serenity, Zoe would go into berserker amazon mode and there would be hell to pay. Serious hell to pay.

The problem with Serenity isn't the deaths, because that, while saddening, creates a new structure for the crew. Roles are shifted, healing has to take place, life has to move on. In the Firefly 'verse it's the new frontier. In the old frontier people died (frequently) roles were shifted, folk pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and kept moving. And our crew has that strength to do that, it will take time, but it has to be done in order to keep exisiting. depending on your view of entertainment, I think it would be highly entertaining to see that as well as true to the canon of the show. Nandi died before, her girls wept, but they picked themselves up and kept living. In Firefly there is alot of darkness, but it is balanced out with humor and hope. If it was happy all the time, it would get boring. Granted I wouldn't want Joss to kill off every relationship or send them spiraling into a path of destruction like he's done to every other series (because even though I know he wants to be 'realistic' realistically alot of relationships do survive and become stronger through tough times, and people don't suddenly die after finding love either).

What Serenity lacks is the texture of Firefly. Firefly had so many precious moments; the crew having dinner together, playing cards, Inara and Kaylee having their girl time, Jayne picking on Simon, Wash and Zoe as a couple, even River and Kaylee running around and playing. So much was in the show that helped shape it into the realism that Joss strived for. It's what balanced the dark and it's what the movie lacked. There was no heavy vein of a unconventional family, a theme heavily present in the series. I know that there was no way to show it since the movie had the crew fractured and ready to part ways, but that made the movie hard to swallow is that we didn't see what made them pull away, we didn't see Book go or Inara leave (and the comics don't give that justice because it's such an intregal bridge from the show to the movie). The movie had the plot, it had the action and the drama, but it completely lacked the texture and the intimate moments of the universe of Firefly, that's what's wrong with Serenity. Not the deaths.

I think that there are alot of reprocussions to visit after Serenity besides the dealing with the death of crewmembers. Like the backlash of the tape, the reaction of the planets, as well as what the Alliance Friendly Guild would have to say about Inara helping a band of rebels air such a politically dangerous tape. Let's face it, her certification could be on the line.
-Then there's Zoe's gradual recovery.
-River's continual growth (she's got a long way but it would be interesting, I suspect it would be rough but she would be more of a lucid impish teenager than ever. She's missed out on alot being trapped at the Academy).
-Simon and Kaylee's possible on again, off again, on again relationship. (THey'd get into a fight about something, Kaylee would play the field but probably come back to him. The process repeating itself several times before she decides all of her other relationships aren't as special as the one with Simon. Simon treats her with respect and sincereity).
-Jayne's antics (how many more crappy planets is he known on?).
-I think ideally Inara and Mal would become pillars for one another, because I think they both need one another equally and they have the potential for such a solid dynamic (though their arch would be full of tension as they are equally stubborn and gaurded and have to learn about trust and the partnership that comes with a fully functioning relationship).
-Childern may be an possible sidearch for the crew, but I doubt Joss would do it how so many fanfic writers do. There wouldn't be any surprise love childs (The girls are too smart to not use some form of birth control, though Zoe might have a shot of a Wash Prodigy I still don't feel it). I think if there were children he would further explore the unconventional family dynamic. Little urchins needing a home, childern suffering from the aftermath of the war six years ago that left them parentless and homeless or poverty, possibly even taking a stretch and busting out a few little Academy captives.

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:11 PM

And then there's the whole Blue Sun arc that Joss didn't have time to explore. It would fit in well with the reaction of the Alliance to the Miranda wave.

And cloning, you'd have to wait 30 odd years for Washclone to grow up. Clones do age normally and not at fantastic rates so no magical adult Wash several months after the BDM.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:
And then there's the whole Blue Sun arc that Joss didn't have time to explore. It would fit in well with the reaction of the Alliance to the Miranda wave.

Oh yeah, we wanna see the return of Blue Sun!
Another cool Firefly concept that got swept aside in the abbreviated movie 'verse.

Quote:
And cloning, you'd have to wait 30 odd years for Washclone to grow up. Clones do age normally and not at fantastic rates so no magical adult Wash several months after the BDM.

I can't see cloning working because it is substitute Wash instead of repaired Wash.
And the tech for repair is in the 'verse, cloning is not.
In my mind, until a film or series continuation says different, the crew put Wash in River's cryo-box to take him home for burial. Along the way, they are informed by Simon that the same medical tech that produced Tracy's hopped up internal organs ("million credit meat" in Tracy's words) are accessible at Government reseaerch facilities. Using a bit of improvisation and Book's ident card, they sneak Wash in in place of a politico who bumped a deserving recipient (ala PA's governor Casey who bumped everybody down the list for his transplant). Alliance bashing, witty dialog and some gunplay ensues. The Firefly 'verse returns to normal.

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Monday, August 25, 2008 7:11 AM

SMAUG

Just to comment on a few of the ideas being discussed in this thread.

As much as I didn't want any of the characters to be killed off, tradjedy is a part of life. And greif and pain can expand your soul in ways that nothing else can.

Just look at this thread as an example. This many years later people are still talking about the death of Wash and Book. What are some of the most intense memories of stories/movies that you saw when you were a child? I would be willing to bet that a good deal of them had some kind of tradgedy in them.

Life isn't a Disney story where all your dreams come true. As a matter of fact, a lot of the public domain stories that Disney built it's empire on.. didn't orginally end happily. The little mermaid was turned into sea foam at the end of the orginal story. And so on..

But anyway.. yes, it has been argued about the tension and uncertainty that was added to the story when those events happend. The Holy-(#*&$-he-just-killed-Wash-is-everyone-going-to-die feeling that suddenly you had at the end.

If characters keep going through dangerous situations time and time again and no body every gets killed, or seriously injured (except a red-shirt), then there is never a true sense of danger. Granted, even if it's "realistic", most people don't want to see a major character die a sensless accidental death. I don't think too many people would be happy if Kalyee died doing a routine spacewalk repair on the ship because her spacesuit failed. But if a character is killed either as a sacrafice or in the midst of a dangerous event, that tradjedy grabs you in a way that continous "happily every after" never will.

But I don't think Joss painted himself into a corner at all.. if anything he set himself up beautifully for more movies. There are probably at least another 6 seasons of stories left even AFTER Serenity. There would have been more if 2-3 seasons of shows wouldn't have had to of been compressed into a 2 hour movie. But, what worked great on a tv series, which was a 9 person crew.. didn't work as well in a movie.

Let's face it.. you simply can't focus very much on 9 main characters in one two hour movie. This was basically a movie about Mal and River. Everyone else was just kind of along for the ride. Especially Book and Inara really got the shaft in this movie.

But now.. with a smaller crew.. and River, who makes perfect sense that she would be able to take over the pioleting duties of Wash, leaves a leaner crew to focus on and continue the story in future movies.

I would argue that Joss knew exactly what he was doing!

Not only for this movie.. but hopefully for the next.. and the next...

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Monday, August 25, 2008 7:24 AM

Well, I agree that death is a part of life. Who wouldn't. But entertainment shouldn't try to imitate life so closley, in my opinion. Heck, if you want that, watch reality TV.

I understand the feeling he was going for, by making us wonder if the others were gonna be killed too. But I just don't think that's nessisary. Sure, by not killing the main characters, there's no real sense of danger. But danger isn't the only feeling I get from entertainment. Take War Stories for example. I knew Mal wasn't gonna be killed by Niska. I knew he'd be safe back on the ship before the episode was over. But, the show had my full attention because I was wondering HOW is he gonna get out of this.

But anyway, this is just my opinion. I just don't know if I could get into another Serenity movie without all 9 characters. I always said when I would describe the show that ALL of the characters were so thought out and important. It just wouldn't be the same without them all together.

I use entertainment to escape the trageties of life. I don't want my entertainment to pull me back into the reality I'm trying to forget for a while.

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Monday, August 25, 2008 11:33 AM

HUGHFF

Quote:
Originally posted by TuJiaoZuo:

Even though we're talking about SciFi and let's face it, cloning has been done many times in SciFi (the first reason why I doubt Joss wouldn't visit it), cloning has been found to be something entirely different than what we all think. Just because another being is created from a copy of someone's genetic code, doesn't mean the copy will be exactly like the original. Often there can be physical and personality differences making the copy it's own unique self. They could clone Wash, but it may not look nor act like Wash, Clone!Wash could be six inches taller with green eyes and a distaste for Hawaiian shirts and dinosaurs (as well as the quiet type even).

Actually, not quite. A clone of Wash would look pretty much exactly the same as Wash, no green eyes, no taller. Clones have existed in nature since the beginning of life, in fact. At present, at the school where I teach, there are at least two sets of "clones." Naturally occurring clones are called IDENTICAL TWINS. A clone shares the exact same genetic makeup as its original, just like an identical twin. So you could clone Wash, but he would be born as a baby after 9 months gestation etc. The clone Wash would be physically different from the original Wash because he would be 30 years younger(!) and any environmental factors that affected his physical stature (eg, if he was enrolled in a heavy gym program) would also change his body shape. Similarly, his personality, while partly determined by his genes (clone Wash would be gregarious too) is also strongly determined by his experience (he may not be such a pasificist.) Of course all this is moot because he would be 30 YEARS YOUNGER. Forget cloning.

Quote:
Originally posted by TuJiaoZuo:

What Serenity lacks is the texture of Firefly. Firefly had so many precious moments; the crew having dinner together, playing cards, Inara and Kaylee having their girl time, Jayne picking on Simon, Wash and Zoe as a couple, even River and Kaylee running around and playing. So much was in the show that helped shape it into the realism that Joss strived for. It's what balanced the dark and it's what the movie lacked. There was no heavy vein of a unconventional family, a theme heavily present in the series. I know that there was no way to show it since the movie had the crew fractured and ready to part ways, but that made the movie hard to swallow is that we didn't see what made them pull away, we didn't see Book go or Inara leave (and the comics don't give that justice because it's such an intregal bridge from the show to the movie). The movie had the plot, it had the action and the drama, but it completely lacked the texture and the intimate moments of the universe of Firefly, that's what's wrong with Serenity. Not the deaths.

Absolutely correct. Exactly what I have said from the begining -and very well put too, sir. That's why I'm not all that fussed about seeing Serenity 2 but I would pay a fortune for Firefly 2.

www.cpfc.org - my life

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Monday, August 25, 2008 11:41 AM

SMAUG

Quote:
It just wouldn't be the same without them all together.

Of course it wouldn't be the same... but still doesn't mean it won't be great!

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Monday, August 25, 2008 11:42 AM

RALLEM

This is something I've thought about with the characters. Is it possible that the Operative from Serenity might be significant to the crew of Serenity again when he comes looking for help for some noble cause which happens to either be very close to something they were already doing or maybe something the crew is passionate about, and in turn the Operative offers some help in figuring out Shepard Book's colorful past, as well as payment?

http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Monday, August 25, 2008 12:00 PM

You're assuming they want to know about his past = They do not believe what he told them.

I'd hate to see any sort of "teaming up" with an enemy.

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Monday, August 25, 2008 12:44 PM

RALLEM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
You're assuming they want to know about his past = They do not believe what he told them.

I'd hate to see any sort of "teaming up" with an enemy.

It doesn't have to be teaming up of old enemies, because there probably would be some drama involved, wondering if he will betray them or if his stated goals were real, but even then why wouldn't you want to see them team up with an old enemy? I would think the crew of Serenity would want to know the Shepard's history after they asked him so many times to explain how a shepard knew so much about crime, but even if that wasn't good enough I would think there could be a plot point which could make the knowledge about Book's past vital.

http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Tuesday, August 26, 2008 3:11 AM

BROWNCOAT1300

I can see other movies in the future but I am sad to say that I dont see them doing anything further with the series.
I think that there is enough unknown plot for them to maybe do some off-shoots but I just dont see it.
I wish I could see it but I cant.

SHINY

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Tuesday, August 26, 2008 6:09 AM

WASHNWEAR

Quote:
Originally posted by swish:
Quote:
I'm not entertained by having fictional characters (that I've been led to be emotionally invested in) killed off as a form of audience manipulation.
All entertainment is audience manipulation. You appear to feeling bitter that this particular manipulation was a sad one, rather than a show coaxing you into some happy fantasyland for two hours. Which is understandable, if you went into Serenity thinking it was the Little Mermaid. (Why would anyone think that?)

If Wash's death bugs you too much, watch Alan Tudyk on Dodge Ball or something to assure yourself that no one actually died. Or write some fanfic about Wash, so the character can still be alive for you. See? It's all good.

Gee, Swish - condescend much? Yeah, let's all watch Alan Tudyk in Dodge Ball, 'cause that's EXACTLY like watching Alan Tudyk in Firefly/Serenity, and in any case my grasp of reality is so thin that I think Alan and Wash and Pirate X (been a while since I watched Dodge Ball) are all one and the same. But thanks for helping clear up one thing: I went into Iron Man thinking it was The Little Mermaid, and now I understand my confusion (though if I squint my eyes down pretty good, Gwyneth Paltrow looks amazingly like Alan...)

It was like my 3rd-grade social studies teacher was alive and well when we got here!

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Tuesday, August 26, 2008 6:47 AM