GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Firefly's deep characters!

POSTED BY: HOUDINI
UPDATED: Monday, April 23, 2007 19:50
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Friday, April 20, 2007 5:27 AM

HOUDINI


Obviously one of the things we all love about Firefly is it's deep and complicated characters, something most other shows lack. I was just watching Objects in Space for about the 30th time and came across something that reminded me again how deep they really are.

Specifically, the part where Simon and Kaylee are in the hall talking about how Simon used to work at the hospital, and Simon says "I would be there right now if she hadn't... if... if, they had just left her alone".

In that 5 second clip you could see that Simon isn't a one dimensional "I'm protecting my sister and that's all I care about" character. You can tell he in a small way blames River for him not being able to go back to working at the hospital. And in his reaction to those words you can tell he's ashamed of himself for feeling that way.

It's no surprise to me that this episode was written by Joss himself. ;)

So my question for you all is: what specific examples have you seen that show just how complex and deep our BDH's really are?


- Houdini






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Friday, April 20, 2007 9:37 AM

ZZETTA13


Excellent question HOUDINI

There are tons that can be said about every crew member on Serenity. Not only the crew of that little transport but also folks like Saffron and Badger and even bad guy Niska.

One of the parts that I like is where Inara gets all mixed up when she thinks Fess Higgins is talking about Mal in the Jaynestown eps.Shows us her mind is never far away from the captain and of all men, rejection from him would be like a dagger to her heart.I feel that there are some emotions there that we never got a chance to see.I love that gal.

Z

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Friday, April 20, 2007 1:07 PM

DONCOAT


Kaylee keeping her poofy dress in her cabin and listening to the dance music.

Wash and Zoe having their little battles... over Mal, over having a baby. Not just an Ozzie and Harriet pairing.

River leaning on Simon to tell him how it felt to be a "real girl" for a while and then losing it... and still understanding he'd love her even though she threw up on his bed.

Book's deep yet brittle faith.

Oh, this could go on forever...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Friday, April 20, 2007 2:15 PM

NIKNAK


Hi, I used to be a regular on this site but haven't posted for about a year. I haven't got time for all the random chat but it's nice to see an intelligent thread actually about the show so I'll join in.

My example: Jayne at the end of Jaynestown, after the kid took a bullet for him. If he was just a one dimensional thug he'd have made a quick exit. If it had been a lesser TV show they'd have made excuses about it not being his fault. Instead he gives an powerful speech and knocks down the statue. He's actually ashamed of himself and that they held him up as a hero. He wants them to stop worshipping false idols (i.e. himself). I love that scene.

"You think people are just going to drop money on you? Money that they could use? We'll there ain't people like that; just people like me."

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Friday, April 20, 2007 2:26 PM

FLYVOTE


I keep the best parts of Firefly and Serenity on five DVDs...




---- ---- ---- ---- ----
FlyVote (version 2.6) Be a Big Damn Hero: http://www.usbmicro.com/misc For Windows/Linux/MacOS9/MacOSX
Vote for our Big Damn Heroes!

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Friday, April 20, 2007 4:29 PM

DARKEYES


Well said NikNak. All of my friends write off Jaynestown as just a comedy episode. But the look on Jayne's face when he says "There's just people like me" Breaks my heart every time. And later when he's so puzzled with Mal on the catwalk. Real deep stuff.


I think Tracy is a really deep character too. I wish we'd gotten to see more of him.

"Still sitting pretty with a pistol in hand."

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Friday, April 20, 2007 5:18 PM

MSKVFORESTER


The conversation between the Captain and Inarra at the end of Mrs. Reynolds. Does the Captain know that she kissed him, and is playing dumb, just because he like to be smug like that, and because his true feeling for Inara scare the hell out of him; or does he not know, and he really think that Inara let Saffron kiss her. The best part about this is that I still dont know!

Early saying..."thats no preacher." Huh? You know him? Where? How?






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Friday, April 20, 2007 5:23 PM

TRAVELER


Hello NIKNAK:

You beat me to it. I think Jayne turning to face the crowd in "Jaynestown" and saying "There are only people like me" is one of the most powerful lines in this series. I'm glad you mentioned this scene. Jayne has faults and can be very imature, but there is a person inside him who wants to change. And there are a few scenes like this one where that special person comes out.


Traveler

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Friday, April 20, 2007 7:55 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by mskvforester:
The conversation between the Captain and Inarra at the end of Mrs. Reynolds. Does the Captain know that she kissed him, and is playing dumb, just because he like to be smug like that, and because his true feeling for Inara scare the hell out of him; or does he not know, and he really think that Inara let Saffron kiss her. The best part about this is that I still dont know!




One of my favorites also !

It's a great credit to the actors , that they can emote to such a degree of ambiguity , and a credit to the writing staff , that they create such lines for the characters...Stuff we may never see truly revealed , that we enjoy the same way , every time , as if for the FIRST time ! Still , it makes one long for what could have been...Gorramn F*>< network !

Just another reason Firefly is the best TV show since DeForest invented the radion...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

" When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

--Leonardo da Vinci

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Friday, April 20, 2007 8:08 PM

PIRATECAT


I always liked Book because he was the most mysterious. But everyone had a secret. The Tams pretty big one. But what about the shepherd what was he carring so secret that would have been bigger than Rivers. Will never know. I wonder too if YoSaffBridge was Patience's daughter. At least 3 more seasons darn it.


"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Friday, April 20, 2007 8:53 PM

TWITCH


One of my faves is another Jayne scene: When Jayne is in the airlock and Mal is walking away, knowing Jayne's losing atmo as they speak. The mercy beggin's over with at that point.

Jayne: "What are you gonna tell the others?"
Mal: "About what?"
Jayne: "About why I'm dead."
Mal: "I hadn't thought about it."
Jayne: "Make something up. Don't tell them what I did."

That's some of my favorite character-defining dialogue in the show. Especially since, as others have pointed out, Jayne is most usually used for comic relief. There's a lot to his character. I just wish all the writers of Firefly had had a chance to develop him further.

One of my other favorite scenes happened at the tail end of the pilot: After the running, the discovery, the fight, the bloodshed, Shepherd Book is in dire need of council and comfort. The confessional scene in Inara's shuttle was nothing short of beautiful.

For River, Objects in Space, the whole episode, is fantastic. The way River's perceptions were handled, both through dialogue and cinematography, was outstanding. The first time I saw the scene when she picks up the stick from the floor of the hold, and the confusion and dialogue that follows, my breath really was taken away. Even two movies isn't enough to finish where Objects in Space left off, from that standpoint alone.

Aaaah, I can't wait until Dark Horse publishes the second book. I also can't wait until Universal figures out the fanbase has expanded since Serenity hit the theaters. I'm not done with these characters!

(I'm also having a blast watching Drive. It's obvious Tim Minear has brought his outstanding writing talents to that show as well.)

I swear, Firefly should be required viewing for screen writers. Jose Molina, Tim Minear, and Joss Whedon build characters like few other screen writers I've seen.

Outstanding thread. Good call!

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Friday, April 20, 2007 10:09 PM

SHINYDS


Well, I have a host of them, and I could name a fistful for every character, because they change in each and every episode. Were I not the first one to say this, I'd fear getting laughed at, but it's good to know that I'm not alone. Good ol' simple-minded Jayne has a couple of good definint moments. I agree wih Niknak about the end of Jayne's Town, however in my humble opinion, the stronger scene was afterwards, when Jayne was standing alone in the cargo bay.

JAYNE: Don't make no sense. Why the hell'd that mudder go an do that, Mal? Jumpin' in front a' that shotgun blast. Weren't a one of them understood what happened out there - hell, they're probably stickin' that statue right back up.
MAL: Most like.
JAYNE: Don't know why that eats at me so...
MAL: It's my estimation that every man ever got a'statue made of him was one kind of sommbitch or another. Ain't about you, Jayne. 'Bout what they need.
JAYNE: Don't make no sense

First off, Jayne could have gone alone to his bunk and thought this over all he wants. But this shows that even the hero Jayne needs help sometimes. He probably didn't consciously stand in a public area, but it seems more than a little odd that he didn't go hide himself away. I like how he is unable to accept that the downtrodden need a hero, because he obviously doesn't view himself as one, which is a big contrast to the beginning, before his secret was revealed, when he was partying away. It also shows, once again, that Mal is there for his crew, even Jayne. So, it's a two-for-one deal. The other is a short scene from The Message.

JAYNE: Me, I see a stiff -- one I didn't have to kill myself -- I just get, you know, the urge to do stuff. Work out, run around, get some trim if there's a willin' woman about... not that I get flush from corpses or anything. I ain't crazy.

BOOK: Makes sense. Looking to feel alive, I would venture.

JAYNE: For psychology, that ain't half dumb. My kind of life don't last, preacher. So I expect I'm invested in making good sport of it whilst I can.

This one isn't as powerful as the other one, but it's important. Jayne is a take-charge kind of guy who bulls in without looking the situation over, and as long as in the two seconds before he lowers his head for the charge there aren't any reavers in sight, he's not too afraid of anything. Openly, leastwise. But here, contrary to his tough guy, fear nothing attitude, he publically admits that he fears death. And with the sheppard no less (someone who prays over the dead!). It seems to kind of cement the frendship that they've slowly beein developing throughout the series (also ironic, a preacher and a crook, best friends). I love watching how these two get along and interact.

--SDS

"Wherever we want to go, we'll go. That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails. That's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom."
--Capt. Jack Sparrow

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 3:20 AM

ZZETTA13


Mornin fellow browncoats

Well guys you've gone and done it again. You've picked out the the most quoted and deepest explored character of the first 14 FF eps.


JAYNE

Adam did a great job with this guy (as the whole cast with their characters as well) One of the fun things for me now is watching the faces of ppl who are seeing FF for the first time. When one of my sisters saw FF a few weeks ago she recognized Adam Baldwin. " He's not a very good actor." she commented. "Wait a minute, give him a chance." I said. By the time we had gotten to the Janyestown eps she was ROFL. That eps was truely Adams eps entirely.

Jayne "You guys had a riot ona'count of me?"

Mubber shakes head affirmatively "I'm glad you're back."

Jayne in tears "How could I stay away." Said almost like the FORCE was with him to come back.

Jayne is an intelligent fellow, but fair to say not abundantly intelligent. He works hard, plays hard and is in good spirits if he gets paid. Of course working hard means exployting the efforts of that hard work. Nothing sums this up better than in the Ariel eps where we hear Jayne exclaim,

" We applied the cortical electrodes
but were unable to get a neural
reaction from either patient."

Who of us would let a bugheaded nurse refuse us our due. I may have been laughing my a$$ off at Adam for that one but I totally knew where he was coming from.

Z

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 4:32 AM

CAPTAINCOUPI


Quote:


JAYNE: For psychology, that ain't half dumb. My kind of life don't last, preacher. So I expect I'm invested in making good sport of it whilst I can.



I didn't notice it before until I saw it written down but that phrase always sounded familiar. It's a paraphrase of another mercenary and pirate, Bartholomew Roberts.

"In an honest service there is thin commons, low wages, and hard labour. In this, plenty and satiety, pleasure and ease, liberty and power; and who would not balance creditor on this side, when all the hazard that is run for it, at worst is only a sour look or two at choking? No, a merry life and a short one shall be my motto."

Maybe Jayne knows a bit of history of Earth That Was.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.bigdamnthankyou.com/


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Saturday, April 21, 2007 5:05 AM

SHINYDS


I wouldn't put it past Jayne to quote a scoundrel, if he was going to quote anyone. But I don't think a man who has trouble with the word "travels" (The Message) would be so well read. Maybe Joss is the one who is the well read one. Well, we know he is, but I mean maybe he intended the paraphrase. And zzetta13, I know what you mean about Jayne and that hospital line. I always smile when he says that, because it seems so fitting for him. He worked hard to learn those big long words, and dang it, he was going to use them if it killed him.

--SDS

"Wherever we want to go, we'll go. That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails. That's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom."
--Capt. Jack Sparrow

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 5:44 AM

TDBROWN


What a great thread!

I've always felt that one character the writers never got around to developing to her potential is Zoe. I wish we had gotten more episodes, just to explore her character in detail. They (the writers, especially Joss) did manage to give us some insight in subtle ways, though.

In the Pilot Episode we get a strong glimpse of Zoe's loyalty to Mal, but we get a feel for her disappointment too. I'm thinking of the scene when Badger mentions the Alliance Markings on the cargo and Zoe's wordless look at Mal that says "You held back from us"; a look of disappointment and disapproval that speaks louder than any words. Wash implies that Zoe's loyalty to Mal is blind, but if he had been there to see that look...

One of the frustrations of not having more Episodes is the new Angle that looked to have a lot of potential, alluded to in "Heart of Gold": Wash and Zoe's views on having a child. The emotional makeup of both of them is revealed in that conversation, and it would have been wonderful to see that developed further. Zoe as the mothering type... huh.

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 8:37 PM

SHAMELESS


Well, first off - in response to you, ShinyDS:

I also love the way Jayne and Book's friendship just gets stronger and stronger. I just wanted to add that I believe that one thing that allows Book to be a true shepherd, yet not be averse to Jayne as a person based on his surface characteristics (there's so much beneath that! He still has his own code, and he has more than just a "money, fightin' and sexin'" personality) and actually connect with the seemingly - or perhaps actual? - opposite of a preacher is the strong possibility that Book might not have led such a different life before he became a shepherd. I'm of the mind that he could have been an operative...

Anywho.

Well, I just watched Objects in Space again today (I originally preferred the mostly funny episodes - ie Jaynestown - but this is starting to become a favorite), and the relationship I'm thinking of in response to the thread topic is that between Kaylee and River. There's a lot of depth in a friendship where somebody cares so much about somebody that even though they do something that scares you, you don't want anybody to think badly of them. It could have been written that Kaylee kept silent for fear of getting shot herself, but instead, it's a personal conflict. Also, something I noticed...

River: It's just an object. Doesn't mean what you think.
chaos ensues
In the middle of all that chaos, River calls out, uncertainly, almost fearfully, what's-going-on?: "Kaylee?" She's not just a crazy girl (well, we all knew THAT, but I thought I'd say the obvious and tack something else on to her character), and here's yet another example of how she's aware of how her perceptions don't match reality. She's confused and a little afraid, perhaps, and she reaches out to her friend (who is edging back from the sight of River with a gun).

Yep - just that little call spoke volumes to me.

By the by... I should probably watch the commentary, since Joss might provide the answer there, but... I've never understood the line, "She understands. She doesn't comprehend." What's the difference, both generally and as it applies to River? Any thoughts?

Oh, and one last thing... When Joss wrote Our Mrs. Reynolds, he did a superb job at portraying Wash as someone who is trying to keep the peace and give Saffron the benefit of the doubt, rather than as a guy who is defending the subservient girl for his own reasons, as Zoe seems to think at one point.

------------------------------------------
RPG launcher bought in third world country illegally - $10
Landmines - $50 per
Attack/track dogs bred 1st class - $250-500 per
Highpowered assault rifles - $600 per
The look on your face when I show up on your doorstep with a bigfoot - ... Priceless

"You gotta love that the first pirated HD DVD is the one about space pirates who broadcast a video that the government wants to keep secret.

Can't stop the signal."
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Saturday, April 21, 2007 9:43 PM

RCAT


The subtleties are what fleshes them out and makes them three deminsional. One of my fav's is not so subtle, the scene w/ Jayne in the airlock in Ariel (as Twitch already mentioned). Jayne apears to be a shallow, self-serving thug; he's about to die, why the hell should he care what the others think of him when he's gone? But he does and that concern and the implied potential for growth in Mal's eyes is his salvation (that and the fact, from what I've read, that all the writers were really digging the character at that point and Joss decided to keep him around, counter to the original plan). People change and grow; most of Joss's characters do too. That's one of the things that make them more real and identifiable to people (even the one's you hate, you can sometimes sympathise w/).


"it's my estimation that...every man that ever had a statue made out of 'im was one kind of a sonofabitch or another."
-Mal




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Sunday, April 22, 2007 12:15 AM

SHINYDS


Sorry, I keep posting here. I can't help it. You guys write some fascinating stuff. I remember what you're talking about, the cry for help to Kaylee. I wish I could see it again, though, now that I have youre new perspective to view it through. Unfortunately, I forgot my set at home, and won't be back at home until the end of July. However, there is a video rental place around here that has it... River's quite the mish-mash. She's got heeps and heeps of blatantly obvious crazy that are decorated by her underlying prepsychotic period. Sometimes she shouts or flips out, but just the looks she gives or small lines really let you know just what's going on in there. Summer really portrayed that role more realistically than I ever thought possible (as did the rest of the crew, of course but we're talking about River at the moment).

--SDS

"Wherever we want to go, we'll go. That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails. That's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom."
--Capt. Jack Sparrow

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 5:19 AM

DONCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by shameless:
By the by... I should probably watch the commentary, since Joss might provide the answer there, but... I've never understood the line, "She understands. She doesn't comprehend." What's the difference, both generally and as it applies to River? Any thoughts?

Yes, you should watch the commentary -- that episode's is the best of all of them, in my opinion, both in terms of interesting details and as a window into Joss' thinking process.

However, I don't recall any specific comments on that line. So I'll offer a couple of my own thoughts, for whatever they're worth.

1. Possibly the 'she' in each half of the line is referring to a "different River". "She" (meaning the innocent 16-year-old girl) understands that guns are dangerous, but "she" (meaning the weapon produced by the Alliance tampering) doesn't see any reason for concern. I kind of like this idea, but the way the line is delivered doesn't really give it much support.

2. Maybe the two words have different meanings to River, even though they mean much the same to the rest of us. Their definitions are very similar; my dictionary even uses the word "comprehend" in the first definition of "understand". But there are some distinctions. "Comprehend" means to grasp something mentally; to "undestand" may mean something closer to "know".

So maybe River is saying that she knows guns are dangerous in the abstract, but doesn't really "get it". Think about a little kid who sticks her finger in a candle flame, then runs crying to Mommy when she gets burned. When Mommy asks, "Didn't you know the flame was hot, that it would hurt you?" the child will probably say yes. She understood she wasn't supposed to play with fire, but until she actually burned her finger she didn't really "get it" -- it was just an abstract concept.

Of course, another possibility is that it was a way for Joss to show us that River was crazy. After all, only a crazy person could understand something but not comprehend it... right?

By the way, the English language is unique in the extent to which it has multiple words to express the same idea. It's the only language that requires a thesaurus. It has adopted words from many different languages, which means there are synonyms galore that can take on slightly different connotations and shades of meaning. It would be very difficult to write a line like this in any other language (without using a word from a second language).

For those interested, "understand" comes from old English words that literally meant "to stand under". "Comprehend" is from Latin words meaning "to grasp together".

Edit to add: Oops, I just thought of possibility number...

3. Maybe River is saying she understands that guns are dangerous, but she doesn't really comprehend what's going on -- i.e. why's everybody making a fuss? After all, she knows how to handle guns. Which is true... as we know but the crew doesn't.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:12 AM

TDBROWN


I dunno, I always thought that River's meaning was that she Understood that guns are dangerous, that she shouldn't touch guns, but that she couldn't Comprehend why they were in That Moment; Why the object had become a Gun.

I think one of the more brilliant insights into River's mind is the "I understand" speech from River to Simon in the Safe Episode. You see the sane little girl peeking out to say that "I'll get better", and the confused girl saying "I remember too much; Some of it's made up, some of it can't be quantified, and there are secrets... but I understand. You gave up everything you had to find me, and you found me broken..."
-A wonderful moment from the Series, and one of my favorites.

*****************
Staying on topic, but switching characters

I've been giving some thought to Simon and why his character seems different in the BDM; Why he seems more aggressive and sure of himself. There is a visible tension between Mal and Simon that wasn't as obvious in the Series, and I think I know why...

Simon claimed in the Pilot that an Underground Group "helped him" get River out of The Academy and that he didn't know what The Academy had done to her or why. Now, I know Joss says he "changed" that to make it so non-fans could know the back story. But if Simon did get her out himself (with help) and get a slight idea of what was done to her and why, it actually works to explain some of Simon's behavior in the Series. He's a little deceptive about what he knows about River. In "Safe", he struggles to explain how River knew about Ruby's past trauma. You get the feeling that he knows she can reads minds. He is "surprised at what she knows" sometimes, but overall he's protective of her because he knows her potentials and wants to protect her. When Mal calls the meeting in Objects in Space, Simon tries to evade the issue of River's abilities, but the Cat's out of the Bag. When Zoe basically nails it by saying that River could've been trained as an Assassin, you (Well, me, anyway) can feel the beginnings of the tension between Mal and Simon; the distrust of Simon's knowlege and motives.

-Just a thought, an Idea...



"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:36 AM

THEREALME


A moment, not necessarily my favorite, of Zoe:

Immediately after Wash dies, Zoe is emotionally torn up, crying, doing irrational things like trying to coax an obviously dead man to get up and come with her.

Soon afterward, she is the hard-as-nails military person, checking her weapon and responding in monosyllables like Joe Friday. Clearly, she has retreated to the warrior woman persona because (I think) that was all she had before Wash changed her with their love together. Without Wash, perhaps, that is all that Zoe is!

Not that I believe that, but as a short-term coping mechanism, I think that works. Good insight into the character by Joss, though.

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:43 AM

TDBROWN


Quote:

Originally posted by TheRealMe:
A moment, not necessarily my favorite, of Zoe:

Immediately after Wash dies, Zoe is emotionally torn up, crying, doing irrational things like trying to coax an obviously dead man to get up and come with her.

Soon afterward, she is the hard-as-nails military person, checking her weapon and responding in monosyllables like Joe Friday. Clearly, she has retreated to the warrior woman persona because (I think) that was all she had before Wash changed her with their love together. Without Wash, perhaps, that is all that Zoe is!

Not that I believe that, but as a short-term coping mechanism, I think that works. Good insight into the character by Joss, though.



Good observation! Gina Torres herself has said that she thinks it would be hard to play the character of Zoe now, because it was her relationship with Wash that gave her character Depth. I think it would be interesting to see if Joss can take her character in new directions now, give her an Inner depth and strength to match the outer strength that we can see...

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 7:43 AM

ZZETTA13


Quote:

Originally posted by DonCoat:
Quote:

Originally posted by shameless:
By the by... I should probably watch the commentary, since Joss might provide the answer there, but... I've never understood the line, "She understands. She doesn't comprehend." What's the difference, both generally and as it applies to River? Any thoughts?

Yes, you should watch the commentary -- that episode's is the best of all of them, in my opinion, both in terms of interesting details and as a window into Joss' thinking process.

However, I don't recall any specific comments on that line. So I'll offer a couple of my own thoughts, for whatever they're worth.

1. Possibly the 'she' in each half of the line is referring to a "different River". "She" (meaning the innocent 16-year-old girl) understands that guns are dangerous, but "she" (meaning the weapon produced by the Alliance tampering) doesn't see any reason for concern. I kind of like this idea, but the way the line is delivered doesn't really give it much support.

2. Maybe the two words have different meanings to River, even though they mean much the same to the rest of us. Their definitions are very similar; my dictionary even uses the word "comprehend" in the first definition of "understand". But there are some distinctions. "Comprehend" means to grasp something mentally; to "undestand" may mean something closer to "know".

So maybe River is saying that she knows guns are dangerous in the abstract, but doesn't really "get it". Think about a little kid who sticks her finger in a candle flame, then runs crying to Mommy when she gets burned. When Mommy asks, "Didn't you know the flame was hot, that it would hurt you?" the child will probably say yes. She understood she wasn't supposed to play with fire, but until she actually burned her finger she didn't really "get it" -- it was just an abstract concept.

Of course, another possibility is that it was a way for Joss to show us that River was crazy. After all, only a crazy person could understand something but not comprehend it... right?

By the way, the English language is unique in the extent to which it has multiple words to express the same idea. It's the only language that requires a thesaurus. It has adopted words from many different languages, which means there are synonyms galore that can take on slightly different connotations and shades of meaning. It would be very difficult to write a line like this in any other language (without using a word from a second language).

For those interested, "understand" comes from old English words that literally meant "to stand under". "Comprehend" is from Latin words meaning "to grasp together".

Edit to add: Oops, I just thought of possibility number...

3. Maybe River is saying she understands that guns are dangerous, but she doesn't really comprehend what's going on -- i.e. why's everybody making a fuss? After all, she knows how to handle guns. Which is true... as we know but the crew doesn't.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!



Interesting thoughts on this. Here's anothers thing to look at. Later in that eps River tells Mal that she's very close to him (Early). He doesn't even see it. This has me thinking that maybe River and Early could be on the same wave/link. Something where emotions, feelings and thoughts are simmilar to one anothers. I remember the scene where Simon asks Early if he's a bounty hunter. Jubal replies " No that aint it at all. I'm a bounty hunter." Almost like when River says she understands, but she doesn't comprehend.

Z

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Sunday, April 22, 2007 8:10 AM

TDBROWN


Quote:


Interesting thoughts on this. Here's anothers thing to look at. Later in that eps River tells Mal that she's very close to him (Early). He doesn't even see it. This has me thinking that maybe River and Early could be on the same wave/link. Something where emotions, feelings and thoughts are simmilar to one anothers. I remember the scene where Simon asks Early if he's a bounty hunter. Jubal replies " No that aint it at all. I'm a bounty hunter." Almost like when River says she understands, but she doesn't comprehend.

Z



River and Early do seem alot alike, in that they think on several levels at once. In the "I'm a Bounty Hunter" scene Early is thinking of something else, is in the Abstract when Simon says "Are you a Bounty Hunter?"

Early: "No, that ain't it at all" (He's still thinking about River's room being 'imbued' with her identity)
Simon: "So. what are you?"
Early (Brought back to the moment): "I'm a Bounty Hunter."

It's a similar situation when Early says "That ain't a Shepherd" about Book lying unconscious on the floor. Sure, folks want to believe that Early knows Book has a secret past, but it's far more likely that Early is merely in the Abstract, saying "I don't see any sheep; That ain't no Shepherd!" Joss even makes light of Early's observation during his commentaries.

But yeah, this all ties into the overall Depth that Joss & Company have given to the characters. So much fun; so Much to explore!!

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Monday, April 23, 2007 12:25 PM

TWITCH


Oh wow! I haven't read all the responses since you posted this, but shameless brought up one of my favorite lines in Firefly, and hands-down my favorite line in Objects In Space:

"She understands. She doesn't comprehend."

That, to me, defined the entire episode. It's River's episode, told from River's perception, though not entirely from her viewpoint. (And it's this sort of character development and expression that, to me, makes Firefly an outstanding written and performed work.)

There's a wealth of difference between the two. The lead-up to that line is a fantastic dip into River's mind that illustrates the difference: Her perception of what is going on around her is out of sync with what other people are perceiving. People are saying one thing, but meaning something else entirely, as in the conversation with Mal and Inara. People are laughing when they're scared, joking when they're serious, and a whole ocean of emotion is rolling out of everyone around her. When she replies to Mal, saying she understands but doesn't comprehend, she means exactly that. She understands. She could probably repeat his words back to him verbatim. But she may not know what he means.

I'm explaining myself poorly. At the risk of sounding maudlin, I've found myself in shoes similar to River's at that moment in that scene, minus the loaded handgun. (And no, I'm not talking about wearing combat boots, mind you... I was speaking figuratively about the shoes.) Things happen and you really don't comprehend why. You understand that they've happened, but the comprehension of what it all means simply isn't there.

Which may explain why River's my second mostest favoriteist character after Kaylee. (I come from an engineering background.) I loved the scene in Shindig when Kaylee held court. I was blown away when River got an entire episode to do the same.

-- Twitch

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Monday, April 23, 2007 12:32 PM

TWITCH


The post Wash character of Zoe has huge potential in my mind. Some months ago in another thread, someone pointed out that the welding job Zoe was doing at the end of BDM was to replace the viewport that was smashed by the harpoon that killed Wash. Holy cow, that's beyond retreating into the warrior woman persona and doing something to get closure. Cripes, she was welding shut the hole in Serenity, in herself. After reading that thread and re-watching the movie, I nearly burst into tears during that sequence.

Egads writing about all this makes me wish harder than ever for a sequel.

-- Twitch

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Monday, April 23, 2007 12:38 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Quote:

Originally posted by twitch:
The post Wash character of Zoe has huge potential in my mind. Some months ago in another thread, someone pointed out that the welding job Zoe was doing at the end of BDM was to replace the viewport that was smashed by the harpoon that killed Wash. Holy cow, that's beyond retreating into the warrior woman persona and doing something to get closure. Cripes, she was welding shut the hole in Serenity, in herself. After reading that thread and re-watching the movie, I nearly burst into tears during that sequence.

Egads writing about all this makes me wish harder than ever for a sequel.

-- Twitch



I never noticed that. That's unbelievable!

*wanders off to watch the movie again and cry*





Banners, Avatars, LJ Icons and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

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Monday, April 23, 2007 6:43 PM

MSKVFORESTER


Damn, now I have to go back and watch the episode. I swear I thought Early said, "I'm not a bounty hunter , I'm a body hunter" (or something to that affect.

Also, whats up with the Lion versus Alliance comment by Early?

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Monday, April 23, 2007 7:50 PM

WHIMSICALNBRAINPAN


Honestly my biggest surprise character-wise was in Heart Of Gold when Zoe starts talking about how much she wants a baby. I did not see that coming and looked at her character in a whole different light after that.

"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." http://whimsicalnbrainpan.blogspot.com/

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