GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

I wanna do this one more time: Was Mal wrong when he shot that surrendering guy in Serenity?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Thursday, June 5, 2014 19:29
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 15453
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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 3:05 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
He was just a military deserter. He was a stowaway. That's why he survived. He was not with the crew. He was in the back. He thought he could sneak away when the gunship landed on moon called Haven.

Then He knew upon surrendering that he was takin' his chances. He should have stayed put & shut up, but he rolled the dice & he lost.
Still not Mal's fault.

So, Mal kills the conscientious objector to impress the hell out of Jayne and Mal is without fault? I want you on my jury when I'm charged with murder. I know just the kind of story to tell you for a not guilty verdict.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 3:37 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
So, Mal kills the conscientious objector to impress the hell out of Jayne and Mal is without fault? I want you on my jury when I'm charged with murder. I know just the kind of story to tell you for a not guilty verdict.

SECOND, what you're doing wrong here is guiding everything towards your desired outcome.
Let's turn it around.
That conscious objector is ME. I stow away hearing that the ship is on its way to Haven. I'm stupid enough to think that it's not on a paramilitary black bag op. Then when there, I notice a lot of firing noises. Then I feel the crash. When it all calms down I peek outside & see the results of the strafing. I sit down in the ship, realizing that I'm the only one left intact here. I wonder what I'm gonna do now. Then I hear a ship land. I ponder for a good long while as to whether I should try surrendering to folk that are probably gonna think I'm just another Alliance creep deserving some of what they think I helped cause here.... I decide to try. Oops, too far away to hear me yelling that I wasn't part of- oh. I'm shot. That sucks.

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 4:23 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I'm always amazed at the lengths people will go to save character and people they like from certain labels.

Well, I'm amazed at how institutions control our thinking to such a degree. A Cop shoots a kid he believes has a gun, that's acceptable. A Soldier shoots a kid he believes has a weapon, acceptable. Mal shoots a confirmed dirtbag killer not really caring if he might have a weapon or not, and he's a murderer.
But an institution finding said surrendering soldier guilty of treason against Parliament & multiple murders sentencing him to death is okay, because, y'know, a body of men with titles is so much more morally correct than a single principled one with no shiny badge or active military rank.
Ugh, I got a piece of sarcasm stuck in my teeth....



Suprisingly I don't think it's okay for the state to sentence people to death.

An eye for an eye leaves the world blind!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 4:38 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:
Surprisingly I don't think it's okay for the state to sentence people to death.

Okay, common ground; I don't either.
But I understand summary executions in times of war. In extreme circumstances, humanity must give way to expediency in order to survive.
Bottom line, first time I saw Mal shoot that guy I was truly shocked how cold he'd become. But I did not for one second care that the surrendering Alliance scum had been killed.




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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 4:48 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
You're assuming that 1) "killing unarmed" is a specific determination of "murder" (it is not), 2) the Alliance pilot didn't have a pistol on him (unlikely), and 3) that Crow's efforts to kill Mal just prior to the trussing him up in front of an engine to get some concessions doesn't count as facing Mal while armed.

You'd get better mileage out of focusing on the fact the Alliance pilot was surrendering.



In both cases those people were not a threat at the time in which Mal killed them. That is murder.

Can we understand why Mal killed them, yes. Does it change what it was, no.




Okay, agreed. I've even said that it is still murder.

But the unarmed thing and those poor helpless people Mal killed so immorally? Come on. No way.

For the pilot that's like saying a guy in a broken down tank that mowed over a bunch of pedestrians first is unarmed and harmless. He's still in an Alliance designed war machine at the time for cryin' out loud.

For Dobson that's like saying a guy who's trying to abduct a child for some seedy torture pr0n (government funded or not) and pointing a gun around when he's known to shoot on a hair-trigger is a cuddly teddy bear.

And for Crow... The guy couldn't be harmless and unarmed unless you literally sawed his arms off.



Regardless of what the pilot and Crow did or could do at the time Mal kills them they are not a threat to him. I understand why Mal killed them, but that does not make that a moral thing to do.

Keep in mind that when I was talking about Dobson I'm talking about the fact that Mal tells Simon that at some point Dobson is going to have to be delt with. Mal understand that he can't let Dobson live, because it will mean the crew being wanted. In the end Dobson puts himself in a position in which Mal was more then justified in killing him.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 4:50 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Okay, common ground; I don't either.
But I understand summary executions in times of war. In extreme circumstances, humanity must give way to expediency in order to survive.
Bottom line, first time I saw Mal shoot that guy I was truly shocked how cold he'd become. But I did not for one second care that the surrendering Alliance scum had been killed.



I can understand that need as well, but need does not a moral act make.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 4:55 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:

Regardless of what the pilot and Crow did or could do at the time Mal kills them they are not a threat to him. I understand why Mal killed them, but that does not make that a moral thing to do.




Only if it's assumed killing is never moral, or that killing is only ever moral or justified when the other person is armed, which I disagree with.

Quote:

Keep in mind that when I was talking about Dobson I'm talking about the fact that Mal tells Simon that at some point Dobson is going to have to be delt with. Mal understand that he can't let Dobson live, because it will mean the crew being wanted. In the end Dobson puts himself in a position in which Mal was more then justified in killing him.


Actually, Mal's question there is pushing Simon in that scene to try to figure out Simon's character. He himself is not sure what to do about the Fed, as is shown with a conversation where Zoe tells Jayne that outright killing the Fed would be the dumbest thing they could do, and Mal's attitude kind of suggests he agrees. That's why they end up tying Dobson up and locking him in a room instead of shooting him right away.

It's not until Dobson breaks out and goes monkey shit again threatening everyone with a gun that Mal finally shoots him.

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 5:00 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

He is none of those. He was just a military deserter. He was a stowaway. That's why he survived. He was not with the crew. He was in the back. He thought he could sneak away when the gunship landed on moon called Haven.


Where are you even getting this? Is this rhetorical?

If he was a military deserter or disagreed with them bombing the village then while he was on the ship he did a damn shitty job trying to stop it. That kinda standing aside and letting evil happen can be and in this case is just as culpable as the actual killing. Anyone on that ship had blood on their hands, whether they were flying at the time or target spotting or opening the bomb bay or cowering in a corner like a rat.

And if he was really intending to get help from the town, after his former crew bombed them, then he done screwed up even worse than I previously estimated.

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 5:09 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Where are you even getting this?

It's his 'what if' to demonstrate how Mal could be more easily labelled a bad man.

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 5:10 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Only if it's assumed killing is never moral, or that killing is only ever moral or justified when the other person is armed, which I disagree with.



If they are a danger to you or someone else at that moment, yes I think killing can be seen as moral. A person tied up or putting their hands up in surrender, not so much.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Actually, Mal's question there is pushing Simon in that scene to try to figure out Simon's character. He himself is not sure what to do about the Fed, as is shown with a conversation where Zoe tells Jayne that outright killing the Fed would be the dumbest thing they could do, and Mal's attitude kind of suggests he agrees. That's why they end up tying Dobson up and locking him in a room instead of shooting him right away.

It's not until Dobson breaks out and goes monkey shit again threatening everyone with a gun that Mal finally shoots him.



We will disagree. I think by the time Mal has that talk with Simon is has come to the conclusion that Dobson is going to have to be killed in order to keep the ship safe. The only other real option they had was to dump Simon, River and Dobson on Whitefall and hope Dobson would simply not worry about pursing Serenity having what he was looking for. By the time Mal talks to Simon I thing he is thinking about asking Simon to stay, which leaves only one option.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 5:48 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

If they are a danger to you or someone else at that moment, yes I think killing can be seen as moral. A person tied up or putting their hands up in surrender, not so much.


I think you're underestimating what kind a danger a person can be in both those circumstances.

Based on what you said previously, would it be moral for a state to execute someone if they armed them first?

I think we won't agree because it seems like an arbitrary line that's being drawn here.

Quote:

We will disagree.


Then agreeing to disagree.

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 5:56 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Then agreeing to disagree.

Well, I'm not agreeing to disagree! That I disagree with! No agreeing here!
To disagree, I mean.

m52 is colouring outside the lines on this one IMO. We all do it to a degree or another, but m52 is assigning extra meanings to where there aren't that many, and leaving out others that matter. He's trying to confound us bungers.

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 6:56 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I think you're underestimating what kind a danger a person can be in both those circumstances.

Based on what you said previously, would it be moral for a state to execute someone if they armed them first?

I think we won't agree because it seems like an arbitrary line that's being drawn here.



Really? What danger was Crow when he was tied up? What danger was the pilot?

I guess if the person that was going to be executed decided to pick up the gun and tried to use it would be, but I don't see that happening.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 6:59 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
m52 is colouring outside the lines on this one IMO. We all do it to a degree or another, but m52 is assigning extra meanings to where there aren't that many, and leaving out others that matter. He's trying to confound us bungers.



What extra meaning? Mal by the definition of the word is a murderer. People may not want to assign that word to a character we like, but that does not change things.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 7:06 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Let's try to be practical. Out on the Rim, the rightness or wrongness of Mal's actions are only important to decide if he will be punished and the severity of that punishment.

The punishment for murder varies in different jurisdictions. The worst punishment where Mal is would be something trivial -- it isn't a big deal because people die every day. For the crime of premeditated murder in the first degree, Mal is sentenced to community service. For all time he must carry cargo from community to community. It is a life sentence. I'm going to leave it with that.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 7:22 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Really? What danger was Crow when he was tied up?



He was still making threats. That's like the definition of threatening, especially because it's implied he's a guy who can follow through on those threats and already tried to kill them.

Quote:

What danger was the pilot?


Inherently untrustworthy because of what he'd done.

Quote:

I guess if the person that was going to be executed decided to pick up the gun and tried to use it would be, but I don't see that happening.




Not going to lie, that's a very unique perspective on morality, that only self-defense qualifies as justified killing.

I'd actually see giving a gun to a guy they're trying to execute as immoral, like they're toying with them. The cruelest thing a person can do is give someone hope then snatch it away.

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 7:24 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

The punishment for murder varies in different jurisdictions.


You mean the jurisdiction of all the people who were just killed?

They'd hand Mal the gun and acquit him, including Shepherd Book, who tried to shoot at them himself. It's the flaw in any justice system, and the concept of justice in general. Bias is inherent in the results.

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Tuesday, June 3, 2014 7:27 PM

CHRISISALL


Once again, the lady takes what I was going to say & states it better. Thanks, darlin'!

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 7:58 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
He was still making threats. That's like the definition of threatening, especially because it's implied he's a guy who can follow through on those threats and already tried to kill them.



So he is making threats, he could not do anything at that point in time.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Inherently untrustworthy because of what he'd done.



So it is okay to kill untrustworthy folk?



I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 9:56 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:
So he is making threats, he could not do anything at that point in time.


If you're bitten by a rabid animal, why get shots right away? The virus can't immediately do any damage...





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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 10:52 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

So he is making threats, he could not do anything at that point in time.


Threats = threatening by definition, + not harmless whatsoever to begin with...?

So they shouldn't take his threats seriously or what?

Still underestimating what he could do at the time.

Quote:

So it is okay to kill untrustworthy folk?


When they just killed a whole village of non-hostiles? I'm going to go with "yes" here.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 1:23 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:
So he is making threats, he could not do anything at that point in time.


If you're bitten by a rabid animal, why get shots right away? The virus can't immediately do any damage...



Again I understand why Mal did it, doesn't change the morality of what he did.

Plus there is a mark differnce between kill another human and a rabid animal.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 1:25 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Threats = threatening by definition, + not harmless whatsoever to begin with...?

So they shouldn't take his threats seriously or what?

Still underestimating what he could do at the time.



What could have Crow done while tied up?

Quote:

So it is okay to kill untrustworthy folk?


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
When they just killed a whole village of non-hostiles? I'm going to go with "yes" here.



...and it would still be called murder.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 2:08 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:
Plus there is a mark differnce between kill another human and a rabid animal.

I'm gonna have to ask Mark about that directly. Hey Mark, what do YOU think?
Mark: "There is no difference between a rabid animal and a homicidal maniac. Both are best set free of this reality to pursue a new existence elsewhere."
But Mark, don't humans differ in the we have souls, and are therefore worth more consideration simply because only God should have a say when a man dies?
Mark: "Oh please. You're makin' me all allergic & sneezy with that fuzzy wuzzy talk."

Well there ya have it! There IS NO Mark difference.

PLUS: Seriously m52, you totally missed my point. I was saying why take MEDICINE right away for an infection that won't kill you for days or weeks. Y'know, drawing a parallel twixt Crow and a virus... see? Both non-lethal AT THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT, but in need of being dealt with ASAP to avoid unavoidable future unpleasantness... get it?

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 3:48 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:

What could have Crow done while tied up?



As I recall he stood up by then and was doing that dumb macho chest to chest thing, so... Headbutt, break nose, downward elbow, stomp temple.

If you have a sense of humour, you could toss a groin shot in there too, though that might actually give recovery time.

Alternate scenario - guy is ripped and might be able to just snap the bonds on him since I'm pretty sure they just used rope. That's when it gets fun.



Quote:

...and it would still be called murder.




You talking in circles now? I already said it would be murder. The disagreement here is whether it's wrong.

Submit another argument.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 4:07 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
[ Seriously m52, you totally missed my point. I was saying why take MEDICINE right away for an infection that won't kill you for days or weeks. Y'know, drawing a parallel twixt Crow and a virus... see? Both non-lethal AT THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT, but in need of being dealt with ASAP to avoid unavoidable future unpleasantness... get it?



I understand that, and have said that I understand why Mal did what he did. Hell, I might have done the same thing. Having a good reason to do something does not make it a moral choice.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 4:07 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I already said it would be murder. The disagreement here is whether it's wrong.



mur·der
noun \'m?r-d?r\

: the crime of deliberately killing a person

: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Ain't crime wrong?

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 4:11 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
As I recall he stood up by then and was doing that dumb macho chest to chest thing, so... Headbutt, break nose, downward elbow, stomp temple.

If you have a sense of humour, you could toss a groin shot in there too, though that might actually give recovery time.

Alternate scenario - guy is ripped and might be able to just snap the bonds on him since I'm pretty sure they just used rope. That's when it gets fun.



...all that, with Zoe standing behind Mal, but he just lets Mal kick him into the engine.



Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
You talking in circles now? I already said it would be murder. The disagreement here is whether it's wrong.

Submit another argument.



Murder is wrong, you may not think that in all cases, but I do.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 4:15 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Ain't crime wrong?


Y'know what I find funny? The government assigns murder to a be kind of moral turpitude, but also finds draft dodging or desertion as a kind of moral turpitude as well.

Crime and wrongness are inherently subjective, our code of laws is arbitrary an inconsistent in a lot of ways, and that's even before you get a jury trial and the justice system involved.

As such, breaking a law, a crime, is not always wrong.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 4:38 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
As such, breaking a law, a crime, is not always wrong.

I was just doin' Devil's Advo, I agree completely.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 6:02 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

...all that, with Zoe standing behind Mal, but he just lets Mal kick him into the engine.


Kind of irrelevant. He'd just made a straight up verbal threat about killing them, and he had the physical side to back up that threat whether or not he was armed or tied up.

I don't distinguish between the two in that case.

And if he had attacked Mal in the way I described, and Zoe kicked him in the engine, you wouldn't be making this argument because you'd consider it self-defense.

The difference in our views is that I see Crow tried to kill them, and if even after he is tied up he is still hostile, then hostilities and the fight never ceased. You see it as over, I see it as a spectrum.

Quote:

Murder is wrong, you may not think that in all cases, but I do.


Unless they're armed.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 6:47 PM

CHRISISALL


I know you must be tired of hearing this Byte, but you ROCK.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 7:09 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:
Plus there is a mark differnce between kill another human and a rabid animal.

I'm gonna have to ask Mark about that directly. Hey Mark, what do YOU think?
Mark: "There is no difference between a rabid animal and a homicidal maniac. Both are best set free of this reality to pursue a new existence elsewhere."
But Mark, don't humans differ in the we have souls, and are therefore worth more consideration simply because only God should have a say when a man dies?
Mark: "Oh please. You're makin' me all allergic & sneezy with that fuzzy wuzzy talk."

Well there ya have it! There IS NO Mark difference.



chris has achieved a worthwhile post in this retreaded topic.

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Wednesday, June 4, 2014 10:57 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
chris has achieved a worthwhile post in this retreaded topic.

Thank you, thank you so much! You like me, you REALLY like me!

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Thursday, June 5, 2014 7:29 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
chris has achieved a worthwhile post in this retreaded topic.

Thank you, thank you so much! You like me, you REALLY like me!


Well, really just your post. Having come from the likes of you, it really stands out more. :P

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