GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

No way will they axe the show

POSTED BY: SADGEEZER
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 09:09
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 13381
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Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:50 AM

SADGEEZER


Well, I don’t actually know this for certain, but lets look at the facts:

[LIST]*Shows with much poorer ratings have stayed alive
*Wheddon has not yet leant his name to any attempts (on-line or off-line) to drum up support to save the show
*The pilot still hasn’t aired yet!
*There are no rumours from Fox or Mutant Enemy that the show will be cancelled
*Only the critics have posted comments that the show may be cancelled
*Wheddon is notorious for starting his story arc’s late
*Most sci fi geeks didn’t get into Buffy and Angel until they were WAY into the first seasons
*Most of the people are very confident about the show – there is no dissent from the production teams
*Nobody from FOX or Mutant Enemy have felt the need to join us in helping to save the show
*Even the most critical fans (like me for instance) have to concede that the series hasn’t had much of a chance to get really, REALLY interesting yet[/LIST]

Most cult TV Sci FI shows (with the exception of LEXX) start poorly while they develop story, arc and characters. I’m just reviewing the first season of Babylon 5 and was appalled at how bad (compared with the later shows) the first episodes were.

I don’t think we should refrain from promoting the show or drumming up viewer ratings on our websites, but I can’t help feeling less concerned about FOX axing the show that I was a few weeks ago.

(PS. I haven't sene the latest episode yet so most of these comments will prolly be redundant - I believe it was a cracker like the previous one!)


SadGeezers Guide to Firefly
http://www.sadgeezer.com/firefly

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 12:10 PM

RAGNAROKGS


I do hope that you are right, as it is a wonderful show. I'm just curious, which shows with poorer ratings have stayed alive? And what networks were they on? I don't know of any shows on FOX with the same first season ratings as Firefly that survived... FOX doesn't care about potential, they just go by the numbers. Unfortunately.

RagNaRoK *gs*
----

"Ich kodiere, folglich bin ich."

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 1:42 PM

NOVAGRASS


This is exactly what I've been thinking. No one at Fox or at ME have said anything about being disappointed with Firefly's performance. The only thing I've heard from Fox is rationalization for it's somewhat poor performance... "We knew it was going to be a slow start," they keep saying, and have listed the major road blocks in the show's success as having affected all of their shows (i.e. Baseball, Season premier confusion, etc...).

We have no reason to believe that the show will be canceled... at least not yet. *Dylan Knocks On Wood*

--Dylan Palmer--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 1:48 PM

PSIONTEN


C'mon, I really like the show too, but its doomed. Even with all of the advertising, the ratings for Friday's show didn't even cross the 3.0 barrier. As far as no rumors of cancellation go, that's wrong as well. There's an article on SyFy portal saying that Fox will announce the cancellation as early as Monday.

So long Firefly... it was nice while it lasted.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 4:00 PM

WILLIAM


I still can't belive that this show isn't picked up for a full season.

I hope the show stays on, but it's really down to the ratings in the end. And 2.9 isn't that great, hopefully that'll improve by time...

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 4:26 PM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by PsionTen:
C'mon, I really like the show too, but its doomed. Even with all of the advertising, the ratings for Friday's show didn't even cross the 3.0 barrier. As far as no rumors of cancellation go, that's wrong as well. There's an article on SyFy portal saying that Fox will announce the cancellation as early as Monday.

So long Firefly... it was nice while it lasted.




Again, all rumors of cancellation are generated by the critics... SyFy Portal doesn't have some all knowing psychic staff, rather, they it runs on rumor and heresay. There is no reason to believe that SyFy Portal has any inside intel unless they've given a source for their information... as it it, everything is pure speculation.

And you've got your facts confused. The 2.9/5 rating is an overnight. A couple weeks ago, the overnight for an episode was 2.9/5, but the actual rating ended up a much higher 3.2/6. And again, the only thing we can be sure of is that FOX isn't expecting blow-out ratings. We can be sure of this because it's the only comment the execs have ever released regarding the ratings of Firefly.

Sure, there's a big possibility that Firefly won't be renewed for the back seven (back seven, not back nine, because they've already ordered 2 more episodes in addition to the original 13 episode package deal), but it's stupid to just give up and accept that it won't be renewed. There's a level of acceptable pessimism, and the negativity some of us have been spewing doesn't bode well for my respect of the Firefly fanbase. It just says to the outsiders that we don't care... it says to Fox "oh, they won't miss the series, they're already accepting defeat."

So, instead of pessimism and negativity, we should be building hope for the series's future... we should be building an attitude to show Fox that we won't give up Firefly without a fight. This acceptance of Firefly's cancellation (before it's even happened, nonetheless) is making me sick and really testing my faith in the fanbase.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 4:39 PM

VALIANTANGEL


Quote:

Originally posted by Novagrass:
Sure, there's a big possibility that Firefly won't be renewed for the back seven (back seven, not back nine, because they've already ordered 2 more episodes in addition to the original 13 episode package deal),



Actually, they ordered 2 more *scripts*, but haven't actually authorized production of the episodes themselves. Just a clarification.

I agree, the negativity about the show's future is upsetting, but at the same time I can understand. People don't like to get hurt, so they're trying to prepare themselves for a possible cancellation by being pessimist. This way, they're covered. But that's just my opinion.

-Vali

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 4:46 PM

PSIONTEN


Quote:

Again, all rumors of cancellation are generated by the critics... SyFy Portal doesn't have some all knowing psychic staff, rather, they it runs on rumor and heresay. There is no reason to believe that SyFy Portal has any inside intel unless they've given a source for their information... as it it, everything is pure specula


Yes, but you're talking about credibility and that wasn't the point of my post. The point was that there ARE rumors of Firefly's cancellation... whether you think they are credible or not is your business.

Quote:

And you've got your facts confused. The 2.9/5 rating is an overnight. A couple weeks ago, the overnight for an episode was 2.9/5, but the actual rating ended up a much higher 3.2/6. And again, the only thing we can be sure of is that FOX isn't expecting blow-out ratings. We can be sure of this because it's the only comment the execs have ever released regarding the ratings of Firefly.



Actually, you've got your facts confused. The ONLY ratings that would be out right now are the overnights and they were 2.9. Several days from now you will see the official adjusted ratings which may or may not be higher than a 2.9, but that's the whole point... several days from now there is a good chance that Firefly might very well be cancelled. You seem to be saying that the overnights won't mean anything because they're not official and that may not be the case.

Quote:

Sure, there's a big possibility that Firefly won't be renewed for the back seven (back seven, not back nine, because they've already ordered 2 more episodes in addition to the original 13 episode package deal), but it's stupid to just give up and accept that it won't be renewed. There's a level of acceptable pessimism, and the negativity some of us have been spewing doesn't bode well for my respect of the Firefly fanbase. It just says to the outsiders that we don't care... it says to Fox "oh, they won't miss the series, they're already accepting defeat."



Hey, I said that I like the show, but me liking it (and you liking it) doesn't change the fact that it has sucked in the ratings. FOX has given it every opportunity and it's failed -- pure and simple. I wish that ratings didn't matter... hell, I still wish that My So-Called Life was still on the air, but facts are facts... it's probably gonna be cancelled in the next few days. I'm not gonna like it, but it's not gonna affect my life either. It's a tv show for god's sakes... you'll live.

Quote:

So, instead of pessimism and negativity, we should be building hope for the series's future... we should be building an attitude to show Fox that we won't give up Firefly without a fight. This acceptance of Firefly's cancellation (before it's even happened, nonetheless) is making me sick and really testing my faith in the fanbase.



You see it as pessimism, its just cold hard reality to me. As far as putting on a brave face to Fox goes... that's the craziest bit of nonsense I've ever heard in my life. If you think FOX is basing a business decision on what some nobody in a fan forum writes, then you have bigger problems in life than the "future" of Firefly.


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Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:16 PM

MILLERNATE


Quote:


Again, all rumors of cancellation are generated by the critics... SyFy Portal doesn't have some all knowing psychic staff, rather, they it runs on rumor and heresay. There is no reason to believe that SyFy Portal has any inside intel unless they've given a source for their information... as it it, everything is pure speculation.



The thing of it is that, if it were as SyFy Portal seems to be presenting it (someone inside the network talking without approval), then they can't name said source. Now, I don't find it likely that they actually have a source (I'm wary of taking information from sites that I've never heard of before) but leaving a source unnamed does make sense.

Quote:


And you've got your facts confused. The 2.9/5 rating is an overnight. A couple weeks ago, the overnight for an episode was 2.9/5, but the actual rating ended up a much higher 3.2/6. And again, the only thing we can be sure of is that FOX isn't expecting blow-out ratings. We can be sure of this because it's the only comment the execs have ever released regarding the ratings of Firefly.



Yes but Fox is going to be deciding on Monday (pretty much everyone is in agreement on this) and the overnight is going to be the only thing really available to do that with. This series needed to have at a minimum a 3.5 overnight to even have a chance. At this point? no hope, no hope at all .

Also, regarding your comments that "Fox wasn't expecting blow-up ratings"? Well that's exactly what ABC was saying about Push, Nevada and we all know what happened to that show, don't we?

Quote:


Sure, there's a big possibility that Firefly won't be renewed for the back seven (back seven, not back nine, because they've already ordered 2 more episodes in addition to the original 13 episode package deal), but it's stupid to just give up and accept that it won't be renewed. There's a level of acceptable pessimism, and the negativity some of us have been spewing doesn't bode well for my respect of the Firefly fanbase. It just says to the outsiders that we don't care... it says to Fox "oh, they won't miss the series, they're already accepting defeat."



Now this part has so many inaccuracies that it isn't even funny. First off, as has been pointed out elsewhere, Fox made an order for 3 more scripts. That's scripts folks, not episodes. This is an almost universal vote of "no confidence" when done by a network (after all episodes require actual commitments, scripts are just so much glorified confetti in these circumstances). Second off, what the fans say doesn't matter (as was proven abdunantly during the "Save The Chronicle" campaign were Sci-Fi took the fans concerned and basically did their very best "JOe Pesci in Goodfellas" to us, sorry still bitter). Third off, let's face it, we're doomed. A show cannot survive on Fox with 2.9 ratings (especially when a show in the same genre earned 4.5's in the same spot last year).

Quote:


So, instead of pessimism and negativity, we should be building hope for the series's future... we should be building an attitude to show Fox that we won't give up Firefly without a fight. This acceptance of Firefly's cancellation (before it's even happened, nonetheless) is making me sick and really testing my faith in the fanbase.



If the fan campaign for FIrefly was making a bit of difference they would have announced a pick-up before now (considering that said campaign has been going on for the better part of a month now). So this, "Won't give up FIrefly without a fight" is just so much useless posturing. If the ratings had gone up into the 3's we might have a chance (and probably would have a chance if it hit 3.5). But now? Please, we are screwed and it brings no shame to admit it publicly.



Nathan
"It looks like a great adventure...That's what it is; that's what it feels like. When I saw the pilot, it was really engaging. It was exciting. It was unusual. It threw me off every now and then. I think people will be grabbed by it." - Ron Glass, on the pilot, during an interview with the Indianapolis Star

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:19 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by PsionTen:
Quote:

FOX has given it every opportunity and it's failed -- pure and simple.



Given it every opportunity??? What planet are you living on? They did nothing to counter months of the negative buzz concerning the "rejected" pilot. They stuck it in one of the worst time slots for a sci-fi show (years of programming data to prove it.) They pre-empted the first 2-3 episodes.
They haven't tried airing it on a better night/time, which they could easily do, and is common practice. How in God's name do you call that "giving it every opportunity"?

I'm sorry, but I just couldn't let the ridiculousness of that statement stand.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:23 PM

MILLERNATE


Quote:


Given it every opportunity??? What planet are you living on? They did nothing to counter months of the negative buzz concerning the "rejected" pilot. They stuck it in one of the worst time slots for a sci-fi show (years of programming data to prove it.) They pre-empted the first 2-3 episodes.
They haven't tried airing it on a better night/time, which they could easily do, and is common practice. How in God's name do you call that "giving it every opportunity"?

I'm sorry, but I just couldn't let the ridiculousness of that statement stand.



Well as much as I dislike the tone of the original poster I had to agree with them:

1. They promoted the show constantly on American Idol (Fox's big "Everyone in the World is watching" show, much like Survivor for CBS).

2. a Factual Correction: They didn't start to preempt the show until something like the fourth week, at least where I live.

3. No one really changes timeslots anymore, and never with one hour dramas (once in an extraordinarily great while you'll see a sitcom change timeslots but never a drama).

4. Please learn to [ /quote ] when you quote (removing the spaces) as trying to read one huge quoted text is a little distracting.

Thank you,


Nathan
"It looks like a great adventure...That's what it is; that's what it feels like. When I saw the pilot, it was really engaging. It was exciting. It was unusual. It threw me off every now and then. I think people will be grabbed by it." - Ron Glass, on the pilot, during an interview with the Indianapolis Star

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:25 PM

HOBBES


Go take a look at Farscape forums where people tried their very best to save it. They got on mainstream new! That's pretty big for a show that has less then Firefly's rating. Now look at Millernate and Psionten's comments. Whether or not you think the show gets canceled is beside the point. You should still try and not get other people depressed with you.

The glass is half empty people are not good to have around when you're trying your best to "will" Fox not to cancel it, as silly as that is.

-------------------------------------------------
May the road rise to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May you be in heaven an hour before
The Devil knows you’re dead.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:34 PM

MILLERNATE


ANd is Farscape coming back? I ask this because I've heard a whole lot of nothing regarding that. And if the show doesn't come back then it doesn't matter a tinker's damn whether they get mainstream attention or not. People, I was there during the "Save The Chronicle" campaign. I wrote, I cared, and it didn't mean a damn in the end. Just like all fan campaigns do in the end (Roswell basically got picked up for S3 because UPN thought it would go great with Buffy, the fan campaign didn't matter at all...), especially when it isn't masterminded by the shows creator (bet you didn't know that Roddenberry was responsible for "The spontaneous fan campaign").

Years of overuse of the concept has made the fan campaign about as successfull as boycott attempts, to wit, not sucessfull at all.


Nathan
"It looks like a great adventure...That's what it is; that's what it feels like. When I saw the pilot, it was really engaging. It was exciting. It was unusual. It threw me off every now and then. I think people will be grabbed by it." - Ron Glass, on the pilot, during an interview with the Indianapolis Star

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:42 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by millernate:
Quote:


Given it every opportunity??? What planet are you living on? They did nothing to counter months of the negative buzz concerning the "rejected" pilot. They stuck it in one of the worst time slots for a sci-fi show (years of programming data to prove it.) They pre-empted the first 2-3 episodes.
They haven't tried airing it on a better night/time, which they could easily do, and is common practice. How in God's name do you call that "giving it every opportunity"?

I'm sorry, but I just couldn't let the ridiculousness of that statement stand.



Well as much as I dislike the tone of the original poster I had to agree with them:

1. They promoted the show constantly on American Idol (Fox's big "Everyone in the World is watching" show, much like Survivor for CBS).

2. a Factual Correction: They didn't start to preempt the show until something like the fourth week, at least where I live.

3. No one really changes timeslots anymore, and never with one hour dramas (once in an extraordinarily great while you'll see a sitcom change timeslots but never a drama).

4. Please learn to [ /quote ] when you quote (removing the spaces) as trying to read one huge quoted text is a little distracting.




1. That doesn't counter the points of my arguement. One "good" thing Fox may have done doesn't negatate all their mistakes, or prove "they've given it every chance." (Also, since I wouldn't watch American Idol if you paid me, I'd say they were wasting promotion on the wrong people, but that's just my personal opinion.)

2. In my area (major northeast city) they DID. That's why I wrote it. It's a FACT, okay?

3. Yes they DO. The X Files is one example. It started out in this same timeslot as Firefly.

4. Sorry. I made a damn mistake. Sue me.


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Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:44 PM

HOBBES


Quote:

Originally posted by millernate:
...especially when it isn't masterminded by the shows creator (bet you didn't know that Roddenberry was responsible for "The spontaneous fan campaign").



It looks like you hit gold! All we have to do is get Joss to mastermind our campaign and the chances go up :)

No Fan campaigns aren't really effective. Take the Excelsior campaign. The only major detractor throughout was that the show would be a prequel, then B&B go and make Enterprise - a prequel. Heh.

Farscape seems to be gone.

And no I didn't know Roddenberry was responsible -(from Spacecast on Space in Canada) I thought it was some old woman. However, I'm not a huge trekkie, maybe they know Roddenberry.

-------------------------------------------------
May the road rise to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May you be in heaven an hour before
The Devil knows you’re dead.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 6:05 PM

PERSEPHONE


Not necessarily disagreeing with you, just questioning.

Quote:

Originally posted by millernate:
No one really changes timeslots anymore, and never with one hour dramas (once in an extraordinarily great while you'll see a sitcom change timeslots but never a drama).



Do you mean on Fox, or any networks? Because I see programs change slots all the time, especially when they aren't stable. Angel has gone from Tuesday, to Monday, to Sunday, and this season it's ratings are better than ever.

Quote:

Roswell basically got picked up for S3 because UPN thought it would go great with Buffy, the fan campaign didn't matter at all.


I thought Roswell was still on the WB when it got saved, and everything I read about it in the media said that it was the fan campaign that saved it. And then after a season, the WB tried to get rid of it again, which was when UPN picked it up.

And I have to agree that FOX has been kind of lacking when it comes to Firefly. They axed the premiere and moved the show from Sunday to Friday, which created negative buzz from the start. They have been showing the eps out of order which is confusing. Also, even Fox admitted that they should have waited until after playoffs to start the show, instead of showing 3 eps and then pre-empting it. Fox isn't entirely to blame here. They are just a little to blame.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 6:16 PM

ILGREVEN


Quote:

millernate sez:

Well as much as I dislike the tone of the original poster I had to agree with them:

1. They promoted the show constantly on American Idol (Fox's big "Everyone in the World is watching" show, much like Survivor for CBS).



...'cuz we ALL know dreck like AI is PRIME breeding ground for sci-fi geeks...

I myself think FF has been UNDER-promoed...since the show premiered, the only ad for FF I EVER saw was the one RIGHT AFTER THE SHOW...


Quote:


2. a Factual Correction: They didn't start to preempt the show until something like the fourth week, at least where I live.



And in most markets, there's only been one pre-emption...

Quote:


3. No one really changes timeslots anymore, and never with one hour dramas (once in an extraordinarily great while you'll see a sitcom change timeslots but never a drama).



I can name five in the last five years: Chicago Hope (Wed to Thurs, back to Wed), Dark Angel (Tue to Fri), CSI (Fri to Thur), Ed (Sun to Wed), and NYPD Blue (Mondays with first ep in January to Tuesdays with first ep in September). And in two of them, the change actually AIDED the show (CSI got a great boost from Survivor, and Ed got out of the weekend). There might not be a show that could boost Firefly, but a timeslot change MIGHT give it legs...

I'd rather think they might just change NETWORKS (ship it off to FX, where a 2.9 is considered pretty good...)



"Bye now. Have good sex!"

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 6:23 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Persephone:
Not necessarily disagreeing with you, just questioning.

Quote:

Originally posted by millernate:
No one really changes timeslots anymore, and never with one hour dramas (once in an extraordinarily great while you'll see a sitcom change timeslots but never a drama).



Do you mean on Fox, or any networks? Because I see programs change slots all the time, especially when they aren't stable. Angel has gone from Tuesday, to Monday, to Sunday, and this season it's ratings are better than ever.

Quote:

Roswell basically got picked up for S3 because UPN thought it would go great with Buffy, the fan campaign didn't matter at all.


I thought Roswell was still on the WB when it got saved, and everything I read about it in the media said that it was the fan campaign that saved it. And then after a season, the WB tried to get rid of it again, which was when UPN picked it up.

And I have to agree that FOX has been kind of lacking when it comes to Firefly. They axed the premiere and moved the show from Sunday to Friday, which created negative buzz from the start. They have been showing the eps out of order which is confusing. Also, even Fox admitted that they should have waited until after playoffs to start the show, instead of showing 3 eps and then pre-empting it. Fox isn't entirely to blame here. They are just a little to blame.

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.



Thank you. I was trying to remember current examples of timeslot changes, and my mind went blank. Thanks for backing up my point(s)!

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 6:31 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by IlGreven:
Quote:

millernate sez:

Well as much as I dislike the tone of the original poster I had to agree with them:

1. They promoted the show constantly on American Idol (Fox's big "Everyone in the World is watching" show, much like Survivor for CBS).



...'cuz we ALL know dreck like AI is PRIME breeding ground for sci-fi geeks...

I myself think FF has been UNDER-promoed...since the show premiered, the only ad for FF I EVER saw was the one RIGHT AFTER THE SHOW...


Quote:


2. a Factual Correction: They didn't start to preempt the show until something like the fourth week, at least where I live.



And in most markets, there's only been one pre-emption...

Quote:


3. No one really changes timeslots anymore, and never with one hour dramas (once in an extraordinarily great while you'll see a sitcom change timeslots but never a drama).



I can name five in the last five years: Chicago Hope (Wed to Thurs, back to Wed), Dark Angel (Tue to Fri), CSI (Fri to Thur), Ed (Sun to Wed), and NYPD Blue (Mondays with first ep in January to Tuesdays with first ep in September). And in two of them, the change actually AIDED the show (CSI got a great boost from Survivor, and Ed got out of the weekend). There might not be a show that could boost Firefly, but a timeslot change MIGHT give it legs...

I'd rather think they might just change NETWORKS (ship it off to FX, where a 2.9 is considered pretty good...)



"Bye now. Have good sex!"



If I'm not mistaken, and I admit I often am, it was pre-empted at least twice where I am. I missed taping at least one episode because it didn't run at the time it had been scheduled.

Thanks for backing me up on other points.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:24 PM

OUTLANDER


Why don't we just wait and see what happens. If there is no official word over the next week then we'll know that SyFy Portal's comments are bogus and just the same old rummers that have been floating around for weeks. I think everybody needs to take a couple of deep breaths and then wait for an official word from Fox.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:50 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by outlander:
Why don't we just wait and see what happens. If there is no official word over the next week then we'll know that SyFy Portal's comments are bogus and just the same old rummers that have been floating around for weeks. I think everybody needs to take a couple of deep breaths and then wait for an official word from Fox.



I'm all for that. I could care less about rumors, wasn't even reading those parts.

It was the claim that "Fox has given it (Firefly) every opportunity to succeed." that set me off.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:54 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by IlGreven:
Quote:

millernate sez:

1. They promoted the show constantly on American Idol (Fox's big "Everyone in the World is watching" show, much like Survivor for CBS).



...'cuz we ALL know dreck like AI is PRIME breeding ground for sci-fi geeks...




A short play (satire)

Scene: Two young men are sitting on the couch watching American Idol. During a commercial break, Fox airs a promo for Firefly.

Young man #1: Yeah, I'm gonna watch that. I heard it sucks!

Young man #2: F***, who cares, man? We always go out partying Friday night.

Both (raising their beverages in unison): "WOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!"

Young man #1: Dude . . . (bleches loudly) . . . pass me another brew.

American Idol resumes.

Young man #2: I want that chick to win. She's hot.

End scene.


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Sunday, November 17, 2002 9:37 AM

PSIONTEN


double post.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 9:38 AM

PSIONTEN


Quote:

Well as much as I dislike the tone of the original poster I had to agree with them:

1. They promoted the show constantly on American Idol (Fox's big "Everyone in the World is watching" show, much like Survivor for CBS).

2. a Factual Correction: They didn't start to preempt the show until something like the fourth week, at least where I live.

3. No one really changes timeslots anymore, and never with one hour dramas (once in an extraordinarily great while you'll see a sitcom change timeslots but never a drama).

4. Please learn to [ /quote ] when you quote (removing the spaces) as trying to read one huge quoted text is a little distracting.

Thank you,



I apologize for any negative tone, because that wasn't why I posted. But it wasn't only American Idol where FOX promoted the show... you couldn't even watch the World Series without seeing 50 Firefly ads behind home plate, not to even mention the amount of on-line advertising and magazine advertising ... its really been an impressive ad campaign if you ask me - impressive as far as exposure goes.

Once again, I'll say that I love this show, but it certainly looks like its going to get cancelled... and fairly soon at that. Pretending as though the ratings aren't that bad or spewing negatives at Fox or "putting on a brave face" or signing petitions doesn't change the fact that its had dismal ratings.

I like Joss's stuff a lot, but let's face facts... as much as people say that they love Buffy and Angel... neither show has ever had great ratings... even by WB/UPN standards. Smallville, for example, is generating ratings that I don't think Buffy and Angel have ever seen.

Firefly was a good show that had a lot of potential but, unfortunately, nobody watched it.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 10:58 AM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by PsionTen:

Firefly was a good show that had a lot of potential but, unfortunately, nobody watched it.



Ok... it's not cancelled *yet*. At least wait until it is to speak about it in the past tense (if it even does get canned).

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 11:44 AM

PSIONTEN


Quote:

Ok... it's not cancelled *yet*. At least wait until it is to speak about it in the past tense (if it even does get canned).



Ok then... Firefly is a good show with a lot of potential but, unfortunately, nobody is watching it.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 12:16 PM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by PsionTen:
Quote:

Ok... it's not cancelled *yet*. At least wait until it is to speak about it in the past tense (if it even does get canned).



Ok then... Firefly is a good show with a lot of potential but, unfortunately, nobody is watching it.





--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 11:36 PM

PERSEPHONE


When will we know dammit?

This AOL article had this to say about Ff:
---
Fox continues to generate passable ratings on Friday, with "Firefly" hitting some of its best male demos since September and "John Doe" topping its hour in adults 18-34 (preliminary 2.6/10) and all male demos. For the night, Fox led in men 18-34, 18-49 and 25-54.
---
FOX wants the male demos, right? At least this news isn't bad.
--
copy and paste this if ya want to read the whole thing...

aol://4344:30.LH1D6Jge.7225274.721822638/

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 12:31 AM

HOOK


Quote:

Originally posted by Persephone:
When will we know dammit?

This AOL article had this to say about Ff:
---
Fox continues to generate passable ratings on Friday, with "Firefly" hitting some of its best male demos since September and "John Doe" topping its hour in adults 18-34 (preliminary 2.6/10) and all male demos. For the night, Fox led in men 18-34, 18-49 and 25-54.
---
FOX wants the male demos, right? At least this news isn't bad.
--
copy and paste this if ya want to read the whole thing...

aol://4344:30.LH1D6Jge.7225274.721822638/

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.



Sadly, we don't all use AOL. So could you be so kind and paste the article here for all to read?

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Monday, November 18, 2002 1:24 AM

PERSEPHONE


The quote from before is all they say about Firefly. Also the article's kind of long, and I wasn't sure if I should paste the whole thing because some boards don't like that. Sorry. If you want to read it here it is...


NBC gains more ground in sweeps

By Rick Kissell

HOLLYWOOD (Variety) - NBC is well on its way to another sweeps victory among young adults after victories on Thursday and Friday and its strongest Saturday of the season.

According to Nielsen, winning performances on Thursday for "Friends" (12.1 rating/31 share in adults 18-49), "ER" (11.9/30) and "Scrubs" (10.2/25) and a strong second-place finish for "Will & Grace" (10.2/24) paced NBC to another Thursday triumph in the key demo.

NBC also prevailed easily on Friday, with "Dateline" (preliminary 3.3/11) and "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit" (preliminary 5.4/17) taking their hours, and was competitive on Saturday with new movie "Hunter: Return to Justice" (preliminary 2.8/8). The picture, which reunited Fred Dryer and Stepfanie Kramer from the 1980s series, fared even better in adults 25-54 (3.4/9) and total viewers (10.5 million), helping NBC take the night by these measures.

For the sweep, NBC is averaging roughly a 5.1 rating among adults 18-49 through Saturday's action, well ahead of CBS (4.1), ABC (3.8) and Fox (3.4). NBC also has made a game of the total viewers race, pulling even with CBS at 13.4 million through Saturday. The four-week sweep ends Nov. 27.

CBS was a strong second on Thursday in adults 18-49 (8.3/20) and 25-54 (9.7/21), posting its best November sweeps score in these demos in at least 15 years. It also moved back on top for the night in total viewers (22.4 million), 1 million ahead of NBC.

"Survivor: Thailand" (21.62 million, 8.6/22 in adults 18-49) saw its best numbers in four weeks and "CSI" (29.94 million, 11.1/26) easily led from 9 to 10 and was the night's most-watched show.

CBS stumbled on Friday and Saturday, though, placing fourth in adults 18-49 and 25-54 on each night.

ABC, which like Fox posted minuscule ratings on Thursday, bounced back with solid showings on Friday and Saturday. "America's Funniest Home Videos" won the 8 p.m. hour in 18-49 on Friday (preliminary 3.2/11) and a repeat of "The Sixth Sense" on Saturday won the night among viewers under 35 and was up vs. its most recent telecast in May.

Fox continues to generate passable ratings on Friday, with "Firefly" hitting some of its best male demos since September and "John Doe" topping its hour in adults 18-34 (preliminary 2.6/10) and all male demos. For the night, Fox led in men 18-34, 18-49 and 25-54.

Fox also edged out both NBC and ABC in 18-49 on Saturday (preliminary 2.9/8) with its combo of "Cops" and "America's Most Wanted."

Reuters/Variety

11/17/02 22:32 ET

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 8:20 AM

LEEBEE



AOL's article sounds fairly positive, but there's a blurb on "The Futon Critic" that's sounding the funeral march for Firefly:

www.thefutoncritic.com

"Critical 'firefly' comes up short

It continues to be a tale of two different series on FOX's Friday lineup. "Firefly's" 3.0 rating and 5 share in the metered markets was its worst score to date, not to mention off by a considerable 39% from the comparable episode of "Dark Angel" last season (4.9/8, 11/16/01). Meanwhile, "John Doe" hit the 4.1 rating mark for the third consecutive week in the overnights, on par with an encore of "24" in year-to-year comparisons (4.2/7, 11/16/01). Overall this season based on metered market ratings, "Firefly" has yet to beat the comparable episode of "Dark Angel" while "Doe" has missed its year-to-year mark just twice (both being "24" encores of the series first two episodes) in eight airings. Also of note is "Doe's" second place finish in the 18-49 demographic according to the fast nationals while "Firefly" fell to fourth place in both half-hours. While we'd love to keep our chin up about "Firefly," don't expect any good news in the coming week."

I don't know who to believe. I wish FOX would make an announcement and get it over with.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 8:28 AM

JASON


Quote:

Originally posted by leebee:

AOL's article sounds fairly positive, but there's a blurb on "The Futon Critic" that's sounding the funeral march for Firefly:

www.thefutoncritic.com

"Critical 'firefly' comes up short

It continues to be a tale of two different series on FOX's Friday lineup. "Firefly's" 3.0 rating and 5 share in the metered markets was its worst score to date,



I might be wrong, but I thought Firefly was steadly at 2.9 in the overnights for the last few weeks. That mean's that 3.0 was not it's worst score to date, which of course makes me question the whole article then...

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Monday, November 18, 2002 9:15 AM

THEFUTONCRITIC


Quote:

Originally posted by Jason:
I might be wrong, but I thought Firefly was steadly at 2.9 in the overnights for the last few weeks. That mean's that 3.0 was not it's worst score to date, which of course makes me question the whole article then...



Doubt all you want but a 3.0 is its worst overnight score to date. The 2.9 rating you are referring to from before is the fast national rating. They are two different measurements.

Brian Ford Sullivan
Editor-In-Chief
The Futon Critic
http://www.thefutoncritic.com

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Monday, November 18, 2002 9:40 AM

JASON


Quote:

Originally posted by thefutoncritic:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jason:
I might be wrong, but I thought Firefly was steadly at 2.9 in the overnights for the last few weeks. That mean's that 3.0 was not it's worst score to date, which of course makes me question the whole article then...



Doubt all you want but a 3.0 is its worst overnight score to date. The 2.9 rating you are referring to from before is the fast national rating. They are two different measurements.




Oh, I did not realize that. If I may ask, what is the difference in the two measurements?

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Monday, November 18, 2002 9:47 AM

SADGEEZER


I was chatting with the wife about this and she suggested that the ratings were important to the show because of two things:

Firstly, they are obviously a good gauge for who is watching the show.

But most importantly, they tell the advertiser how many people will see their advertisements. If Fox sell advertising space in a timeslot for 4.0 and the show hits 2.9 then surely they are either going to have to give a refund sell future advertisements for less or axe a show and replace it with one that has better ratings.

Now that may seem like a plausible explanation for axing the show and replacing it with say.... Dark Angel but that’s the whole point! If Fox did that with all the shows they would never make any new ones and just show popular repeats.

I think they have to speculate to accumulate and I think that the investment for Firefly is so high (despite it being such a cheap (to produce) show) that they HAVE to let it run to the full series before they can gauge it's success or begin to assess the return on investment. I don't think it's very easy for a company like Fox to commission a series, advertise the hell out of it and then axe it without giving it a chance.

Whedon would do his nut!

I must admit, I thought the show was pretty mediocre for the first few episodes - but now, rather than eye the barmaid I'll telling the lads in the pub about this super new Star Wars midget light sabre that gives people nose-bleeds and the screaming heeby jeebees. Firefly just got interesting for many of the sci-fi-geek-brigade and that must count for something.


SadGeezers Guide to Firefly
http://www.sadgeezer.com/firefly

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Monday, November 18, 2002 10:06 AM

THEFUTONCRITIC


Quote:

Originally posted by Jason:
Oh, I did not realize that. If I may ask, what is the difference in the two measurements?



From the site:

Quote:

A note about the ratings listed here: Remember that overnight ratings (often referred to as metered market ratings) is the data from "set top boxes" in approximately 20,000 households in 55 of the largest markets in the U.S. (see the complete list). This sample covers 68.96% of all households in the U.S. These "set top boxes" track what is being watched only, not who in the household is watching what (i.e. demographic information). Overnights obviously skew to the urban audience due to the viewership being in the largest markets.

Fast national ratings is the preliminary data from 5,000 "people meters" in households across all 210 markets (see the complete list). This sample covers 100.00% of all households in the U.S. These "people meters" measure not only what is being watched but also who in each household is watching what in order to gather demographic information as well as the number of actual viewers (not just households) watching the program. This preliminary data does not take into account scheduling changes across the country, most notably those in the pacific time zone due to live events such as sports (hence why we list them by time slot, not program). Preliminary (or "fast" as they are more commonly known) national ratings are only available for ABC, CBS, FOX and NBC. After several days, a final national rating and share is determined for all programs on all the broadcast networks (i.e. ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, UPN, the WB and PAX), as well as the total number of viewers (in millions) that watched the program. Final national ratings are generally issued in a weekly report each Wednesday featuring rankings for each program on how it did compared to the rest of the programs that aired in said week.

Since as we mentioned fast nationals are not released for UPN, the WB and PAX we use overnights in our reporting as a means of comparison (at least initially, obviously when the final national rating information is released that's the final word). We feel there's no point in comparing the fast nationals for ABC, CBS, FOX and NBC to the overnights for UPN, the WB and PAX as Zap2It.com does. They are two different pieces of data from two different samples. Overnights and nationals are collected separately so one can see how a show is performing in the specified larger markets (via overnights) and nationally (via nationals).



Hope that helps.

Brian Ford Sullivan
Editor-In-Chief
The Futon Critic
http://www.thefutoncritic.com

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Monday, November 18, 2002 11:01 AM

THEFUTONCRITIC


Quote:

Originally posted by SadGeezer:
I think they have to speculate to accumulate and I think that the investment for Firefly is so high (despite it being such a cheap (to produce) show) that they HAVE to let it run to the full series before they can gauge it's success or begin to assess the return on investment. I don't think it's very easy for a company like Fox to commission a series, advertise the hell out of it and then axe it without giving it a chance.



Believe it or not though, sometimes NOT airing a show saves more money than airing a show. Such was the case for when FOX canceled "Girls Club" so quickly:

Quote:

Although Fox will take an initial hit of about $18 million in costs for 11 unaired episodes of the canceled drama Girls' Club, the rapid decision to abandon the show could save the network as much as $20 million.

The David E. Kelley produced series was averaging only a 3.7 rating/5 share in households after two episodes in its Monday 9 p.m. slot, according to Nielsen Media Research, as well as a low 2.3/5 in adults 18-49. Since Fox had guaranteed advertisers a 9 household share, the show was underdelivering by nearly 45 percent. The network had sold 30-second spots in the upfront for Girls' Club at about $175,000 each. So having to pay makegoods for the remaining 11 episodes at that rate could have cost the network as much as $20 million, media buyers estimated. In addition, the show would have clogged up a key time period during the November sweeps.



Brian Ford Sullivan
Editor-In-Chief
The Futon Critic
http://www.thefutoncritic.com

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Sunday, November 24, 2002 4:47 PM

CHRISSY


Actually, I've read some good reviews of Firefly: TV Guide had an article on it a few weeks ago, and their critic seems to think it's a good show. And USA TODAY featured it in their "shows to watch this week", calling it the best show nobody's watching. The problem, as always, is there are just too many dimbulbs out there who wouldn't know good entertainment if it came up and kicked them in the teeth.

"time to thin the herd"

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Sunday, November 24, 2002 6:28 PM

ALLRONIX


I'm really bummed at the show's bad ratings - it is some of the best stuff I've seen in YEARS!

Yet, even though it's probably got a short lifespan, I can't tear myself away from it the way I probably should. It's like a really tasty snack that is bad for you.

I really hope I'm wrong and this survives. Most of my pals who were bereft of their Friday night sci-fi after Farscape got axed (talk about boneheaded maneuver! )

I never even KNEW this stuff existed until I went to my sister and bro-in-law's house. Like usual, they found it before I did (I saw half of Bushwacked and my jaw hit the floor). Now, I gotta prep for cancellation like I did with Lone Gunmen/Alien Nation/Space Above and Beyond? BUMMER!!

And Survivor? American Idol? The Bachelor? Look, if I wanted to see 9 people snipe at each other, I'd get roomies. If I wanted to see a bunch of young things sing Celene Dion, there's a kareoke bar across the street from my apartment. And that last one...(Socilist/Feminist rant )

Co-founder of the Evil Writing Crew - causing hell, one hero at a time!

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Sunday, November 24, 2002 6:44 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED


Quote:

Originally posted by Allronix:
Yet, even though it's probably got a short lifespan, I can't tear myself away from it the way I probably should. It's like a really tasty snack that is bad for you.



Don't want the show cancelled? Do something about it! Write a letter to fox. There are sections of this very site that will tell you how.

________________

So I'm an idiot. What are you? Perfect?

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Sunday, November 24, 2002 6:57 PM

ALLRONIX


Already did that AND called my affiliate, and bought postcards for sis and brother in law for them to send off.

But, I don't think I can top sending the network my old TV. Did THAT when Lone Gunmen was cancelled

Co-founder of the Evil Writing Crew - causing hell, one hero at a time!

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Monday, November 25, 2002 5:25 AM

CHRISSY


Quote:

Originally posted by Allronix:
Now, I gotta prep for cancellation like I did with Lone Gunmen/Alien Nation/ BUMMER!!




Yes! Entertaining shows that suffered premature demises.

Quote:

And Survivor? American Idol? The Bachelor? Look, if I wanted to see 9 people snipe at each other, I'd get roomies. If I wanted to see a bunch of young things sing Celene Dion, there's a kareoke bar across the street from my apartment. And that last one...(Socilist/Feminist rant )


Sometimes I thing they must just flip a coin or throw darts at a wall chart to determine what stays and what goes if they'll show trash like that instead of enjoyable shows like Lone Gunmen and Firefly.




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Monday, November 25, 2002 6:53 AM

IDEFIX


are any of you by chance Farscape fans?
another show about people. not so different from Firefly. SciFi with aliens but no Star Trek. it was about a band of misfits thrown together by chance on one ship and trying to stay alife.
it got cancelled by the end of it's forth season, in the middle of the story, with a cliffhanger hanging and no resolution.

seems normal to them to kill off all the good (scifi) shows, the ones about people and not about space battles.

or look at Andromeda. they made it into a farce. all it got now is a sexy captain and lots of great fights with lots of great special effects. no stories, no people, they all are just ship-decoration to stand around and look sexy or something. no problems allowed, no characters allowed. take one look at Tyr and you see what I mean.

I just hope no one does it to Jayne. let Mal kill him first, please. I really really like characters with a character of their own. and I like them to stay that way. they may grow and change but they may never be reduced to decoration.

I'm quite sad about all of this. we really don't need any more dumb-people TV. there's enough of that already. they can show it in reruns again, no one will notice the difference anyway. maybe they can spruce up old ones with new special effects, would be cheaper.

I really hope this Joss guy or yours (I'm no Buffy or Angel fan, so I don't know him like most of you seem to) can pull this off and keep the show the way it is meant to be without getting it canceled because of poor ratings. seems the majority of people are dumb or like their TV dumb or something, or they put the ratings boxes in the wrong houses.

and I can't do nothing about it at all. I'm german and I get TV via the internet. all they show here is syncronised stuff and 90% of it is so badly syncronised you simply can't watch it. they make every interesting show sound boring and 20% of the meaning is left out and most of the jokes are left out or are simply not translatable and it all just feels wrong. I wouldn't want to know what they would make out of Firefly. I know now, that they will totally screw it if they ever try to sync it.

do you guys think it would help if I wrote an email to Fox telling them not to cancel Firefly because all the good TV I get is illegal internet copies of unsyncronised versions of mostly american TV? I think I better not do it...

Idefix

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Monday, November 25, 2002 7:41 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED


Quote:

Originally posted by Idefix:
are any of you by chance Farscape fans?



http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=8&t=544

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=8&t=574

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=8&t=594

just to name a few

________________

Instead of us hanging around playing art critic till I get pinched by the Man, how's about we move away from this eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our increasingly eerie-ass day?

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Monday, November 25, 2002 8:36 AM

RHEA


Quote:

Originally posted by PsionTen:
Yes, but you're talking about credibility and that wasn't the point of my post. The point was that there ARE rumors of Firefly's cancellation... whether you think they are credible or not is your business.




Actually, your facts/rumors are off. Joss Whedon issued a statement last week saying they're not going anywhere - yet. Apparently the December ratings will be crucial. The link to the interview was posted elsewhere on this site (can't find it at the moment).

And there have been rumors of Firefly's cancellation since before the 1st episode aired. I'm content to wait from week to week and see what happens.

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Monday, November 25, 2002 8:57 AM

BOBKNAPTOR


I think the point is who the rumors come from. Of course there are rumors of the cancelation. That's why this thread is even happening. But there haven't been any rumors from Fox or ME that the show is going away. Maybe there are rumors from other really reliable sources, but until I hear Fox saying ... "gee, we're not sure..." or Joss saying "well, we're doing our best but it doesn't look good...." .... until then, I'll just keep thinking that the show is staying on for now, and I'll keep telling my friends to watch.

______________
One week without firefly and I'm already having major withdrawals.... I'm about to start trying The chant that George's father on Seinfeld used to do... "SERENITY NOW!"

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Monday, November 25, 2002 11:58 AM

TINYTIMM


Quote:

Originally posted by CHRISSY:
[BSometimes I thing they must just flip a coin or throw darts at a wall chart to determine what stays and what goes if they'll show trash like that instead of enjoyable shows like Lone Gunmen and Firefly.



Lone Gunmen was a victim of network tampering.

I hope Firefly doesn't go the same way.

Jeff
Who thought LG would have been better served finding nothing but fake situations, and losing the beautiful people clones tossed in for ratings demographics they never got.

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Monday, November 25, 2002 5:14 PM

BENTON


ALLRONIX says:
"And Survivor? American Idol? The Bachelor? Look, if I wanted to see 9 people snipe at each other, I'd get roomies. If I wanted to see a bunch of young things sing Celene Dion, there's a kareoke bar across the street from my apartment. And that last one...(Socilist/Feminist rant )"

Damn Right!

"The Bachelor" makes me cringe.

And what's up with relentless cream-puff poorly acted tripe like "yes, Dear" - lord how do these shows survive - I mean obviously there's plently of viewers but I mean - it must be torture for the actors.

One great thing about the Bachelor for men - take those twenty or thirty women willing to do that to themselves for some jack-ass Ralph-Lauren wonder boy and just cross them right off the maybe list - ewwww. Who could spend their life with some gold-digger?

Ughh!

Be well, Keep Flying,

-Benton

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Tuesday, November 26, 2002 5:15 AM

RHEA


Quote:

Originally posted by benton:
Damn Right!

"The Bachelor" makes me cringe.




Bleach! Ptooey! I refuse to watch "reality" shows on principle. And now they're going to have "The Bachelorette" next season. God, how I hate that word. Anything with an "-ette" on the end of it tends to raise my hackles anyway.

Hey, I finally have a good reason to use the vomit icon.!

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Wed, October 23, 2024 21:36 - 4 posts
Testing.
Tue, October 8, 2024 21:05 - 65 posts
Firefly Pumpkin Stencils
Mon, October 7, 2024 06:29 - 34 posts
BROWNCOAT BALL October 25-27, 2024 – BETHLEHEM, PA
Mon, September 30, 2024 10:23 - 5 posts
What is your favourite historical or war film/television show???
Mon, September 30, 2024 07:05 - 36 posts
CW app streaming Firefly for free
Fri, September 27, 2024 16:35 - 3 posts
Why isn't this a bigger story?
Tue, September 24, 2024 06:55 - 4 posts

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