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GENERAL DISCUSSIONS
Did Joss paint himself into a corner with Serenity?
Saturday, August 23, 2008 5:39 PM
OPPYH
Saturday, August 23, 2008 6:29 PM
PHYRELIGHT
Saturday, August 23, 2008 6:40 PM
NBZ
Sunday, August 24, 2008 3:34 AM
NCBROWNCOAT
Quote:Originally posted by PhyreLight: Well, the characters aren't the same after Miranda. That part's true. But River's comment at the end of the movie about a storm is a wink to the audience that there is soooo much more to come. Experience the Horribleness! http://www.drhorrible.com
Sunday, August 24, 2008 3:58 AM
Quote:Originally posted by ncbrowncoat: Will Zoe become either more bad ass or will she retreat?
Quote:And the most important question of all, Mal and Inara, can they get together and will Joss kill one of them?
Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:24 AM
REDDRAGON
Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:29 AM
Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:52 AM
PENNAUSAMIKE
Sunday, August 24, 2008 5:45 AM
EMPIREX
Sunday, August 24, 2008 6:55 AM
SLOWHAND
Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:04 AM
PLATONIST
Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:18 AM
Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:41 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Platonist: I see no Drama in having Simon bring Wash back and alive for Zoe. Zoe made her choice to stay loyal to Mal and her role on Serenity rather than leave with her husband, when he wanted to, (see his comic fantasy). He died a hero doing his job to save his family. Why take that away from him? Zoe's character growth will come from her grief and acceptance of his death, like the old saying, "what doesn't kill ya, will make ya stronger and wiser". There is potential for story writing here. Either, by being that new single mom or a returning Dust Devil. And, Mal doesn't need anymore partners in crime. He has River, Zoe, Jayne, Kaylee, and Simon. What he needs is to love a woman, that loves him back (Inara) and make babies with her (a family) so he can emotionally pull himself out of the Valley and he can start by being man enough to tell her so. Again, potential for story writing. A very long one, knowing, Joss. Simon, Kaylee, Inara, and River are young enough to have a life time of stories. So, I'm not sure of where this thinking comes from, that because one character dies there is no more room for storytelling. Joss kills his characters because people do die in real life drama. That’s the way it is, but life goes on. Unfortunately, Serenity, metaphorically killed Firefly. These characters won’t be seen in a series, other than movie sequels. The actors are busy (thank goodness), and are getting older. Movie sequels make the most sense or maybe a mini series.
Sunday, August 24, 2008 8:45 AM
Sunday, August 24, 2008 9:02 AM
GORRAMGROUPIE
Sunday, August 24, 2008 9:21 AM
Sunday, August 24, 2008 11:27 AM
ECGORDON
There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.
Sunday, August 24, 2008 11:36 AM
CHRISISALL
Sunday, August 24, 2008 11:42 AM
Quote:Originally posted by ncbrowncoat: And life does go on after the death of loved ones. I found that out at 18 when my father died suddenly and again now at 48. My Mom passed at the end of May. Life is different, but it goes on.
Sunday, August 24, 2008 11:55 AM
Sunday, August 24, 2008 12:14 PM
Quote:Originally posted by pennausamike: And was the death of your parents entertainment?
Sunday, August 24, 2008 12:15 PM
Quote:Originally posted by ecgordon: I suppose you need to clarify you definition of the word entertainment. In my opinion Shakespeare is entertainment, but also painfully real. Should we rewrite his plays to excise any deaths you don't care for?
Sunday, August 24, 2008 12:21 PM
SWISH
Quote:Originally posted by pennausamike: I look to fiction as entertainment. If I want unhappy endings, all I gotta do is wake up! But please keep in mind that I acknowledge that my bias runs to the fact that I like my entertainment to be FUN and I expect life to be tempered by MISERY, so when entertainment is tempered by MISERY it becomes a reflection of life and ceases to be entertainment.
Quote:Good entertainment resonates of real life without getting sucked into dwelling on real life drawbacks.
Quote:I'm not entertained by having fictional characters (that I've been led to be emotionally invested in) killed off as a form of audience manipulation.
Quote:I understand the idea of killing characters for dramatic effect, but my whole point is that at no point is the show (or a Serenity sequel) made better by the loss of Wash as compared to what that character brings to the table dramatically.
Quote:If we "had" to kill off a fictional character I would agree with this reasoning but we don't "have to" kill off anybody. Its a work of fiction. There is no REAL peril in any of it.
Sunday, August 24, 2008 12:23 PM
Sunday, August 24, 2008 12:31 PM
Sunday, August 24, 2008 12:53 PM
Sunday, August 24, 2008 1:56 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Platonist: Sorry to here about your Mom ncbrowncoat. And I liked what you said about dealing with what Joss left us with. He himself admits during the Aussie Q&A that the verse dramatically changes after Miranda and that's just the way it is, but it does move the story forward and I'd like a little more movement in the form of a sequel. And I don't think anyone can anticipate what these characters will do in the future, i.e. Inara's professional conflict, Simon's and Kaylee's sex commitment, River's saneness and piloting, etc...never say never. It’s really all up to Joss who absolutely DID NOT write himself into a corner.
Sunday, August 24, 2008 1:57 PM
JAYNESMANE
Sunday, August 24, 2008 2:04 PM
Quote:Originally posted by ncbrowncoat: If I want light and fluffy entertainment all the time I'd only read romance novels and watch ABC Family.
Sunday, August 24, 2008 2:27 PM
Quote:Originally posted by swish: And what I like about Joss is that he goes beyond entertainment, doesn't present hollow fake idealizations of life.
Quote:You seem to be laying down a rule where maybe you have no right. When you write your own show, you can take your audience into fantasy land by making everything perfect and safe and happy. Joss chooses differently. Speaking for myself, I must say: Thank god he does!
Quote:All entertainment is audience manipulation. You appear to feeling bitter that this particular manipulation was a sad one, rather than a show coaxing you into some happy fantasyland for two hours.
Quote: When every death in a show is played out like the Shepherd's, all carefully played out to have a well defined effect on the plot, I start to see nothing but the hand of the writer. The fantasy is ruined for me.
Quote:You see what I'm saying?
Sunday, August 24, 2008 2:35 PM
Quote:Originally posted by pennausamike: MY opinion that Serenity isn't true to its own nature
Sunday, August 24, 2008 3:06 PM
Quote:Originally posted by pennausamike: Quote:I'm not laying down a rule but rather, I spent a number of (apparently wasted) words and examples to put forth MY opinion that Serenity isn't true to its own nature; and it paid for Joss not knowing how far you can push an audiences' buttons with a $25 million box office gross; as compared to Ironman (which got it right) doing over ten times that business.
Quote:I'm not laying down a rule but rather, I spent a number of (apparently wasted) words and examples to put forth MY opinion that Serenity isn't true to its own nature; and it paid for Joss not knowing how far you can push an audiences' buttons with a $25 million box office gross; as compared to Ironman (which got it right) doing over ten times that business.
Sunday, August 24, 2008 3:32 PM
Quote:Originally posted by pennausamike: You are twisting what I'm saying by equating uplifting, positive entertainment with "hollow fake idealizations of life".
Quote:Once again you demean my position (Firefly was realistic AND uplifting) by making the leap that I think Serenity should have been "some happy fantasyland for two hours".
Quote:You also blew off my whole point that Book's death serviced the plot and character in the story whereas Wash's death was aimed at creating an audience reaction.
Quote:See, I'm the opposite! Book's death serviced the story, (makes the story real to me) Wash's death was the writer saying, "be scared,audience, I'm the writer and I-Can-Kill-Them-All!"
Quote:And I believe the failure of Serenity to reach a mass audience like Ironman (uplifting and positive) or The Dark Knight (just...dark) is that it tried to be too many things.
Sunday, August 24, 2008 3:59 PM
Quote:Originally posted by ecgordon: Hell, you didn't even join this site until nearly a year after Serenity premiered in theaters.... I don't think anyone is trying to tell you that you can't have your own opinion, just that the majority of us don't agree with it.
Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:27 PM
Quote:Originally posted by swish: I believe it is not your job or mine to define Firefly's nature. That job is Joss's. So he (Joss) had to choose one genre to focus on, and went with fast-paced adventure.
Quote:The fact that so many new fans did bond with it, and went to find the series and then came here, speaks volumes.
Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:32 PM
Sunday, August 24, 2008 6:01 PM
TUJIAOZUO
Quote:Do they have cloning tech? Surely the Alliance does, we're cloning sheep now, why not people in the future? IF that is the case, what would happen if Wash was killed, but for some reason the Blue Hands decided to clone him? Then he could be an agent provocateur, inserting himself back into the crew, for some twisted purpose he may or may not know.
Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:11 PM
Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:27 PM
Quote:Originally posted by ncbrowncoat: And then there's the whole Blue Sun arc that Joss didn't have time to explore. It would fit in well with the reaction of the Alliance to the Miranda wave.
Quote:And cloning, you'd have to wait 30 odd years for Washclone to grow up. Clones do age normally and not at fantastic rates so no magical adult Wash several months after the BDM.
Monday, August 25, 2008 7:11 AM
SMAUG
Monday, August 25, 2008 7:24 AM
Monday, August 25, 2008 11:33 AM
HUGHFF
Quote:Originally posted by TuJiaoZuo: Even though we're talking about SciFi and let's face it, cloning has been done many times in SciFi (the first reason why I doubt Joss wouldn't visit it), cloning has been found to be something entirely different than what we all think. Just because another being is created from a copy of someone's genetic code, doesn't mean the copy will be exactly like the original. Often there can be physical and personality differences making the copy it's own unique self. They could clone Wash, but it may not look nor act like Wash, Clone!Wash could be six inches taller with green eyes and a distaste for Hawaiian shirts and dinosaurs (as well as the quiet type even).
Quote:Originally posted by TuJiaoZuo: What Serenity lacks is the texture of Firefly. Firefly had so many precious moments; the crew having dinner together, playing cards, Inara and Kaylee having their girl time, Jayne picking on Simon, Wash and Zoe as a couple, even River and Kaylee running around and playing. So much was in the show that helped shape it into the realism that Joss strived for. It's what balanced the dark and it's what the movie lacked. There was no heavy vein of a unconventional family, a theme heavily present in the series. I know that there was no way to show it since the movie had the crew fractured and ready to part ways, but that made the movie hard to swallow is that we didn't see what made them pull away, we didn't see Book go or Inara leave (and the comics don't give that justice because it's such an intregal bridge from the show to the movie). The movie had the plot, it had the action and the drama, but it completely lacked the texture and the intimate moments of the universe of Firefly, that's what's wrong with Serenity. Not the deaths.
Monday, August 25, 2008 11:41 AM
Quote:It just wouldn't be the same without them all together.
Monday, August 25, 2008 11:42 AM
RALLEM
Monday, August 25, 2008 12:00 PM
Monday, August 25, 2008 12:44 PM
Quote:Originally posted by nbz: You're assuming they want to know about his past = They do not believe what he told them. I'd hate to see any sort of "teaming up" with an enemy.
Tuesday, August 26, 2008 3:11 AM
BROWNCOAT1300
Tuesday, August 26, 2008 6:09 AM
WASHNWEAR
Quote:Originally posted by swish: Quote:I'm not entertained by having fictional characters (that I've been led to be emotionally invested in) killed off as a form of audience manipulation.All entertainment is audience manipulation. You appear to feeling bitter that this particular manipulation was a sad one, rather than a show coaxing you into some happy fantasyland for two hours. Which is understandable, if you went into Serenity thinking it was the Little Mermaid. (Why would anyone think that?) If Wash's death bugs you too much, watch Alan Tudyk on Dodge Ball or something to assure yourself that no one actually died. Or write some fanfic about Wash, so the character can still be alive for you. See? It's all good.
Tuesday, August 26, 2008 6:47 AM
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