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Originally posted by zoid:
...So, forced to fill my own request, here's the link to Haken's blog that kaneman cited: http://fireflyfans.net/showblog.asp?b=275

It's dated 20 Mar 2004 (that's right, 3 years ago) and here's the entire page, quoted in context. Please note that the reader commentaries/questions are in reverse order, with the earliest comment/question at the bottom of the page, and responses/later comments above:

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Sharereactor taken offline

Well, I'm bummed. It seems this bit of news has had a cascading effect and a few other directory servers and a result have taken their listings offline temporarily until the Sharereactor situation has been resolved.

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FRAUENFELD (kapo) Due to the suspicion of breach of copyright and trademark laws the cantonal judicial Inquiry department of Thurgau has taken down an Internet-Site that served as a link platform for filesharing offerings. A process concerning these matters against the 25 year old owner from Frauenfeld is underway.

The Internet-Site located in Frauenfeld was online for about 30 months and last had over 220.000 hits per day bevor it was taken offline by the Thurgau officials. The in search engines toprated site worked as a anchorpoint for links to downloads of copyright and trademark protectet games and movies that were offered on the filesharing network.

After a complaint from several large corporations, represented by the swiss association against piracy, the cantonal judicial inquiry department of Thurgau initiated an investigation, seized the servers in Frauenfeld and had the site taken offline.

The responsible owner, a 25 year old swiss proved to be very cooperative in explaining matters at hand. The inquiries continue and will take some time.



Shiny

Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 16:21

>Just visit www.bucktv.net and you'll see what I mean.

It says 'under construction'...

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Haken

Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 06:57

Sharereactor and websites like it (such as www.bucktv.net) acts as a directory and contains links to files available on the eDonkey peer-to-peer file sharing network. Clicking on one of these links (much like clicking on a hyperlink in your browser) loads the file information into your eDonkey network client (eMule Plus is a good one). Once the information is loaded, your eDonkey network client then proceeds to download the file from the peer-to-peer network.

What makes these directories popular is that they contain links to television programs aired here in the US. So if you were to miss an episode of your favorite show (if you're in the US), you can simply download it and watch it. If you're not in the US, these network would be the only way for someone in a foreign country to watch an American television show. One could think of this as a poor man on-demand television network.

While the majority of these directory sites list television programs and movies, some do have listings for commercial software--such as Sharereactor.

As for whether this is legal or not, I'm not quite sure and perhaps someone else can shed some light. But the general feeling is that since they're only listing file info and not actually hosting the files themselves, it should be legal, which is why these directory sites continue to thrive on the net.

I hope I clarified this a bit for you by being not very technical.

Just visit www.bucktv.net and you'll see what I mean.

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Serena

Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 06:01

Haken, can you translate this into English for me?

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Of particular interest to me is that Haken seems to be mourning the loss of access to broadcast TV shows, some of which may be inaccessible to viewers on an international basis. He mentions that software can be downloaded on some of the file servers (not that he does download movies/TV series/software and then burn and sell them to make a profit); but that he is "not quite sure" if "this is legal or not" -- probably speaking from the sense that he's not sure if the owners of ShareReactor could face jail time or fines. I believe he knows that sharing anything other than content you yourself produced from all-original stock (original manuscripts, music, etc.) is prohibited by law. The only question in his mind is whether or not the directory server is illegal.

Okay, so having said all that -- and having been painted as a "Fed" because I feel thieves are ruining everything for everyone, just so they can make some easy money -- here's the deal:

1. Everyone breaks the law. In virtually every case, people trying to lead honest lives the best way they know how, are breaking some law or the other, every day. Maybe you have too many pets... Maybe you use your barbecue grill too close to the house/on the deck... Maybe you're like me and willfully break the law by always traveling 5 MPH over the posted speed limit, everywhere you go (except through school zones and residential districts, where children might unexpectedly dart out from between parked cars to chase a ball). Point is, everyone does break the law.

2. Trying to use an excuse like, "Everyone breaks the law" to cover up a crime that hurts everyone else is just lame. Example: "Yes, I shoplift everywhere I go, and yeah, I know it drives the prices up for everybody else...But, hey! That's your problem! If it gets too expensive for you, you can always do it the 'good and cheap' way, like I do. Steal anything you can, and then turn around and sell it to Goodwill for pennies on the dollar. You'll turn a tidy profit!"

3. Haken may or may not have 'bent' the rules and accessed some over-the-air televised content to which he had no legal rights; but I'd be willing to bet my last dollar that he never burned that content to CD/DVD writeables and then sold it for money. I don't know Haken personally. But criminals never do anything for free, let alone at their own expense -- and in a very public way -- strictly for the love of doing so. Something like FFFn would never occur to a thief...

4. One last important point: There's no such thing as 'bending' the law. You are either in compliance with the law, or you are breaking it. Ignorance of the law is not a valid defense, either. The main thing to remember is that if you're 'bending' the law, that you will get punished accordingly, if you get caught. For the millions who 'share' their files with others, that might mean an unfortunate encounter with The Big Shark (as I analogized in a previous post) swallowing up your entire shoal of minnows in one fell swoop. Being a little fish in a vast school is a proven survival technique...but it ain't foolproof. Being a meal-sized fish, however, the kind that attracts attention? You will get caught. It's just a matter of time, and strictly at the convenience of John Law. You may think you're smart enough to get away with it. But -- like 'military intelligence' -- the words 'criminal' and 'genius' do not belong in the same sentence together...

In closing, while he never asked me to, I feel compelled to defend Haken's honor. kaneman's attempt to paint our benefactor with the same brush as himself is a despicable attempt to justify his own crimes. And, of all people, Haken least deserves such character assassination.

I and a lot of other people owe Haken a lot. Go peddle your excrement elsewhere...



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"You were truthful back in town. These are tough times. Hard to find yourself work. A man can get
a job, he might not look too close at what that job is. (to Mal) But a man learns all the details
of a situation like ours, well, then he has a choice." -Bourne

"I don't believe he does." -Capt. Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly, "The Train Job"

***Don't paint my BDHs as petty thieves, either***

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1) What FFF doesn't have a zillion pictures saved in picture files?...pictures from all aspects of the shows, the movies, and the awesome stars themselves?

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Originally posted by zoid:
Like I said, I think Cache's heart is in the right place, I really do.

Okay, so s/he stuck her/his foot in his/her own orifice, right off the bat. But, hey, let those of us who have never unintentionally insulted somebody on this board cast the first stone. I've still got folks on this board who are pissed at me because I've misunderstood their intent, and gone off half-cocked on them.

For me, it's all about intent to do harm, intent to give umbrage. Cache stepped on the toes of some hard-battled Browncoat guerillas, true. But, I reckon s/he was just really excited to be suggesting a new approach...

Having said that, I'm convinced that the approach s/he forwarded would be nothing less than disastrous for everyone who loves Firefly. 'Viral marketing' is not the same thing as copyright infringement on a massive scale, using the Federal postal system as a delivery mechanism. ...And even s/he admitted that people would get arrested, tried and convicted.

That's just lunacy. Even if it worked and Vivendi-Universal said, "Hey! People really like this Firefly/Serenity stuff! Let's make lots more!", that'd be pretty hard biscuits to take when you're in prison and the bull-queers/dykes only want to watch "My Name is Earl" on the communal TV, when Firefly is on.

...And when the murderers and rapists asked you what you did to get incarcerated, would you want to trade on your rep as the guy who 'viral marketed' Firefly, to keep your backside squeaky clean?

Like I said before: This is a disastrously bad idea, regardless its intent to be helpful. The only reason why I even piped up on this subject is to avoid anyone coming to the conclusion that it might actually work, beyond improving their 'love life'...

As to getting a CD-R in the mail, along with a heart-felt letter encouraging me to introduce it to my home entertainment network... (*stops typing until the laughter, hiccuping, and tears cease*) ...ummm, sure, I'd do that.

But seriously, I wouldn't throw it away. They make lovely frisbees/doggie chew toys (at least, for the doggies you're trying to promote to The Great Kennel In The Sky).



Responsively,

zoid

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Originally posted by zoid:
...Now if only some of the other (moderately) old-timers would check back in, to at least let us know they were okay.

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Are you actually still
afraid of legal action?

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...I'm old, and I'm okay (just a little tired from having to edit so many posts...I really try hard not to have to move threads wholesale to troll country but it's a tough call sometimes -- thanks to everyone who keeps the discussion mature and respectful even when those you are arguing with don't. Makes our job a lot easier!) :)

Keep Flying Everyone!

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Originally posted by zoid:
But I definitely miss old friends, perhaps gone, but never forgotten...



Respectfully,

zoid

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Originally posted by zoid:

I assumed that the sly 'viral marketer' in your scheme would send mailers from the drop boxes at a rotating public post offices or street corner boxes, sans return address.

The problem is, the sneakier you get, the more likely you are to get caught. Since 9/11/2001, the USPS has been very circumspect when it comes to anonymous hard-mailers in their sorting rooms. Perhaps you remember the anthrax that was mailed to various members of Congress? I'll let you in on a secret: Almost none of them had a return address (no accounting for intelligence on the few that did), and quite a few of them were CD-type hard-mailers.

So, thinking you're circumventing detection by not including a return address is a critical flaw in your logic.

...But it goes deeper. Assume the USPS intercept your mailers -- and I guaran-damn-tee they will -- and then go through the expense of opening them safely and then examining the contents of your CD-Rs. (NB: And, remember, you're talking about sending out hundreds of them.)

Now, what they find is no threat to national security, so *whew!*. ...But what do they find is a violation of copyright law, automatically made a Federal offense because these have been sent through the United States Postal Service.

But, like I said, I assumed cunning and guile on the part of yourself and your merry band of co-conspirators. As long as you drop your mailers in randomly selected post office boxes, they'll never catch you, right?

Problem: The more elusive you are, the more they will spend to track you down. "Today, it's Firefly," they'll reason, "but what'll it be tomorrow?" And because you've actually broken the law, they won't just sweep it under the carpet or write it off to youthful over-exuberance. They'll build up a pattern of the mailboxes you've used, in what order, and Bob's your uncle, they'll get you triangulated. One day you'll open the box to insert a handful of mailers and find your self surrounded and handcuffed.

Don't think they won't do it. Don't glom over that critical error in your logic. They caught all the persons who mailed the anthrax, and those persons never even sent out hundreds of mailers. Plus, every time the local USPS comes to a stumbling halt in order to isolate one of your 'no return address' mailers, it costs money; when the USPS services are disrupted, and when they remove your mailers to a detection unit. The biggest charge they throw at you (in terms of jail time) will probably be something along the lines of 'Interference with the Federal Mail'.

So, in conclusion, as I said before: Just back away from this scheme you've dreamt up, before you draw back a bloody stump. Dude, it's a bad idea.

Your heart's in the right place, I can sense that. And you're in active thinking about new methodologies, and that's a good thing. Just try and cook up something spectacular that doesn't involve breaking the law.

Most folks around here will fanatically support a good, bold, inventive idea. But we are -- for the most part -- intelligent enough to recognize a 'Guyana Punch' solution when we see one, too...



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Originally posted by Cache:
3)If for some reason the USPS decided to set up
a sting (I can't stop laughing about that one)
well I won't be there. One would only have to
mail out one batch. That's the beauty of things
that are viral. You infect once, and you move
on. Those you infect spread it for you. No one
is going to "triangulate" me. That is just silly.

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1)I would never choose to use hard mailers which the post office states clearly on big signs are subject to inspection. There are plenty of soft mailers for media which do the job nicely. They are cheaper too.

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2)As for the return address I would use a fake one, one that does not exist. I do understand that this cannot be left blank.

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Were you going to mail these out with a return address?

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3)If for some reason the USPS decided to set up a sting (I can't stop laughing about that one) well I won't be there. One would only have to mail out one batch. That's the beauty of things that are viral. You infect once, and you move on. Those you infect spread it for you. No one is going to "triangulate" me. That is just silly.

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4)Hundreds of CD mailers go through USPOs on a daily basis...

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5)Do you have some intimate knowledge of the USPO that I do not because I have never seen any DVD players there?

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6)Everything you wrote about the mail attacks in 2001 was wrong. They were all via conventional envelope, and they have not caught the culprits. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

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Another idea I had was purchasing a copy of the boxed set and mailing it to local popular talk radio DJs along with a letter or flyer describing the intent. This also applies to syndicated nation wide DJs such as Imus, Howard Stern, and Opie and Anthony.

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Originally posted by Troublemaker:
Does this forum even have moderators or is this a free for all forum? I would think that after the numerous confessions of illegal behavior in this thread would not only warrant the thread being locked but possible trips to banned camp.

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I'm a huge fan of this site because of its freedom of speech aspect. Very Browncoatlike.

Kudos to the mods!

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Heh.... ironic statement coming from somebody with the handle troublemaker.

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Originally posted by zoid:
Cache:

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When I said 'hard mailer', I meant standard cardboard CD mailer. The USPS is looking for these, too, if they lack a return address.

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Just as a quick example!
http://www.containerstore.com/browse/Product.jhtml?PRODID=62618&CATID=
62517&searchId=1465691&itemIndex=1
These are a bit on the pricey side but just
looking to show you what I meant.

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So, now you're saying you'd make up a fake address from your own surrounding neighborhood? You presume the mail deliverers don't know their own turf? Or would you make up an address from a different city?

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Most likely a nearby area would be best. 1-2
Zip codes away.

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Again, my mistake. In your opening post, you claimed, "I'll handle central CA." (NB: That'd be central California, in standard terminology.) I misunderstood that you intended to 'handle' all of central CA by mailing out one batch. I presumed something a little more comprehensive than a single handful of CD-R's...

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It would be more around the range of 200 or so.
The point being that those recieving the DVD
and enjoying it would then pass it on to friends
or family or remailing it themselves to another
random person.

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Did you seriously cite Wikipedia?

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Yes I did.

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As a final note, by breaking copyright law through the federal post, it's not about whether or not somebody would press charges. It ain't a civil suit. It's the proverbial 'federal case'.

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Hm, you have given me a small idea.

BTW Sent out a boxed set to Opie and Anthony
although it might take a while to make it to
New York I don't doubt they will be talking
about it soon, and their listeners number in
the millions. As a fan of their also inane
radio program I know that Firefly is something
that Anthony would love.

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Originally posted by Troublemaker:
Its obvious that there are "irritants" that need to be flushed.

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Some folk have no concept of freedom. Their definition of freedom is more of a definition for utter chaos.

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Originally posted by BrownCoat2007:
Wow.... I want Firefly back as much as the next folk... but pissing off the GORRAM Fox isn't gunna get us anywhere, hell, it might even make us fall back a step... all we can really do is keep signing, keep collecting, and keep spreading the 'verse...

We'll HOLD, HOLD till Firefly's back on the air!!!

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Originally posted by zoid:
Cache:
Just in case you got the wrong impression, I'm not calling you a 'criminal'. As I said, way back up the page, people break the law -- wittingly or unwittingly -- all the time. Hell, sometimes, in order to do what I'd consider 'the right thing' -- rendering assistance at the scene of accident, for example -- a person could leave themselves liable to a lawsuit.

What you have been proposing is against the law. But it's simply not in the same league as what kaneman confessed, specifically, downloading "Serenity" and then selling pirated CD/DVD-Rs for profit. By analogy, your proposal is like setting a bonfire in your backyard (the fire marshal may cite you); what kaneman does is analogous to wanton arson. In both cases, y'all are playing with fire; but in kaneman's case, there is a blatant disregard for the health of the community. I hope everyone can easily see the difference.

I and many others would prefer not to give the Browncoat Movement an unsavory reputation by doing anything of questionable moral or legal merit.

As much as I want Firefly back on television (please, God), I don't know how happy I'd be to see it back on F*x. Supposedly, Sci-Fi is ending (not canceling) Battlestar Galactica at the end of season 4. I know where they could pick up a good idea for a series, and it wouldn't cost near as much as BSG to produce...



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Originally posted by Grizwald:
The man has a wife, and he has children who will need to go through college someday, and I assume he has a mortgage, and a powerful need to eat.

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Originally posted by zoid:

Cache:

How about this for a fan-promotional idea:

Everybody send a copy of the Firefly series DVD (as opposed to a DVD of Serenity) to Vivendi-Universal, along with a condolence letter over their loss of BSG.

"Dearest Vivendi-Universal, d.b.a., The SciFi Channel:

Please accept my heartfelt condolences over your loss of the most popular and fascinating show currently on television. You must all be heartbroken that such a good, young show has come to such an early end.

Please also accept, as a small token of my esteem in your time of grief, the enclosed DVD of another science fiction television show that came to an even earlier, unfortuitous and unfinished end. Perhaps you've heard something of it. I'm sure you'll enjoy the story.


Sincerely,

Yore Nayme Heere

P.S.
If you enjoy the DVD, be sure to commend Loni Peristere and his ZOIC teammates for making the SFX look so good on it. He's still got offices on your lot, somewhere, although not for long since he'll be made unemployed once BSG closes.

Have a beautiful day."

Then we time it so that we all mail on the same day, resulting in several thousand (hopefully) Firefly DVDs hitting their mail room within a day or two, all with a sweet little "We're so sorry you lost BSG" letter.

We might also further suggest that Viv-Uni redistribute the DVDs to lending libraries around the country...



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Time for bed. Tomorrow, perhaps.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Hey Cache.... I'm really liking this idea here. Got two things for you here:

I'm not a lawyer, and though I think I have a more firm grip on LEGALSPEAK than a lot of the proles because I actually read the fine print to what I'm signing, sometimes I just don't grasp certain verbage or my ADD kicks into high gear and I read some of it 5 times just to realize that none of it sank in and I need to start over again.

Not sure which is the case here.

My question, and this is the way I understand it, does this mean that everyone who wanted to burn 33 copies of the first disk, and mail them out with a message, say "Let Sci-Fi know you love Firefly", and "Buy the boxed set to see more", or just a "Save our Show" have the ability to do that under the $1,000.00 mark, or is this a collective thing that would not protect a group effort?

I know we've got some lawyer Browncoats here. I'm wondering if we have any lawyer types haning around this thread that might be able to shed some light on the legality of this situation as it is written here.


------

Second thing was, if we can prove to hesitant Browncoats that this is a legal strategy (assuming at this point,of course, that it is a legal strategy in the first place), I was thinking it would be a great Idea if we loaded some of our own BDE (Big Damn Extras) on the Demos. Get some of our most brilliant creative minds together to collaborate on a fan vid, a Firefly Desktop theme, ringtones of character's voices.... anything that would be bound to get even more attention and make the reach even further. Of course the legality of all of this would have to be considered before it was added as well.

I think this is a great idea and if we can stop talking about irrelevancies that we've been discussing in here and actually get some minds together working on it, we may have a very effective viral marketing scheme here if we can launch it within the realm of legality.



EDIT: I like Zoid's idea too. No reason why we can't do a couple of things all together.



"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Originally posted by Cache:
P.S. Its quite possible I missed something in the show since I have only watched it 2x through but does you name not refer to the amazing film from the 90's Six String Samurai (pulling samurai from Samurai Jack)?

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...However, why are you still resisting and deflecting
my original idea, now that I have proven it to
be legal? ...

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Originally posted by zoid:
Cache inquired:

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...However, why are you still resisting and deflecting
my original idea, now that I have proven it to
be legal? ...

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Well, that's the sticking point, isn't it? Have you proven it to be legal? I read the ordinances you provided; but are these the only ones that apply? You admit not being a lawyer, and yet you assert that you have correctly interpreted these particular codes.

Have you ever heard the expression 'jailhouse lawyer'? It's generally used in a derogatory sense, roughly meaning, 'someone who knows just enough about the law to get themselves out of the frying pan and into the fire'. Don't freak on me, now. I'm not calling you a jailhouse lawyer. What I am saying is that, until a bona fide legal interpretation is provided of these and any other pertinent laws that might apply, I could not endorse such an action.

As 6SJ has aptly pointed out, there may be further legal ramifications for the type of organized action you are proposing, as opposed to a single individual doing such. Likewise, as 6SJ has further pointed out, there are actual lawyers that frequent these boards (although this may or may not be in their area of specialized expertise). I only wish I could remember at least one of their screen names...

To answer your question, and 6SJ's ensuing postulate, then:
If it does happen to be completely legal -- or at least defensible in a court of law -- then I would say, "Hey, we should all try this." But that hasn't been proven to my satisfaction, at this point.

I know enough about the Law, to know that I know virtually nothing about the Law...except this: "A man who acts as his own lawyer has a fool for a client." We have the right to defend ourselves; but the fact is that if you're going up against a team of high-paid lawyers, you'd better have a crack team of defense lawyers at your disposal. Either that or just save some time by pulling your pants down as you enter the courtroom, cuz you're gonna get your hide tanned. Funny part is, if you did have a lawyer, the chances are they'd be able to turn the keys in the locks of Justice, that you don't even know exist based on a casual reading of the code. The Law -- especially where highly expert corporate lawyers would be arrayed against you -- ain't nothing to be playing with.

If it's legal, I'd go for it. But it's gotta be safe, because I (like many others hereabouts) have got a family to consider. I would not risk my ability to provide for them on an ill-advised scheme to promote an entertainment, even one as singular as Firefly. Neither would I say to the younger generation that they should jeopardize their futures in such manner, because one day they might want to have a family, or at least be productive participants in our society, too.

Maybe you and 6SJ should start a new thread, calling for those forum members who are actual lawyers to evaluate your proposal. Include the law snippets you provided above, and restate your original proposal in a less 'you guys are lame' manner. With any sort of luck, you won't have so alienated the 'coats that they instantly start flaming...and you won't get any 'support' from piracy-for-profit advocates, which only serves to nullify your arguments.

The appeal of my promotional idea is that it is totally legal and beyond reproach, morally as well as legally. It would cost the participants c. $24 plus postage to play along, about what one might spend to take a date to a (crappy) movie. So, like your plan (less the questionable legality), it's not gonna break anybody's budget of either time or money to participate. And I know for a fact that there are Browncoats all over this planet that would happily piss on a spark plug if there was a snowball's chance in Hell that it would jump-start Firefly...

To conclude this post:
If your scheme proves to be unassailable under law, then I'd have no qualms about participating in it. Furthermore, I seek no credit/recognition for my idea. I enjoy my anonymity, my rank-and-file stature here on FFFn. So, if you (or anyone else) like my scheme, please feel free to pick it up and run with it -- and call it your own, if you so desire. Start a new thread with that proposal and I'll chip in with suggestions for further refinements, and I'll definitely send a DVD to Viv-Uni on the day...

The more fresh and targeted ideas we dream up, the better. Getting single-mindedly wrapped up in one idea -- developing "an emotional attachment to a single plan of action's success or failure", as I warn my ATC apprentices -- is tantamount to unnecessarily painting yourself into a corner, strictly out of hard-headedness...



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
An example of one suggested refinement of the "Condolences Plan": Research and find the lowest on-line price for Firefly DVD. Everyone purchase a copy from that merchant (someone large enough to handle an overload, say Amazon), on the same day ('everyone synchronize your watches'). Once we have confirmed home delivery, step 2 would be to mail them out, all on the same day, all to the same mail recipient, preferably a president or vice in charge of series acquisitions at SciFi. Next best recipient would be pres. or vice in charge of series DVD sales/marketing (e.g., the person who gets credit or blame when BSG season DVDs sales figures fluctuate).

Ask me why this course of action would be so effective psychologically, on three different fronts, if anyone's actually interested.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Originally posted by Grizwald:
Cache = one-post wonder

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