REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Attorney General Eric Holder: If the President Does It, It's Legal

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Friday, August 12, 2022 05:47
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Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:22 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

"I never thought I would see the day when a Justice Department would claim that only the most extreme infliction of pain and physical abuse constitutes torture and that acts that are merely cruel, inhuman and degrading are consistent with United States law and policy, that the Supreme Court would have to order the president of the United States to treat detainees in accordance with the Geneva Convention, never thought that I would see that a president would act in direct defiance of federal law by authorizing warrantless NSA surveillance of American citizens. This disrespect for the rule of law is not only wrong, it is destructive."--Eric Holder, June 2008 speech to the American Constitution Society

Since the early days of our republic, the Attorney General (AG) of the United States has served as the chief lawyer for the government, entrusted with ensuring that the nation's laws are faithfully carried out and holding government officials accountable to abiding by their oaths of office to "uphold and defend the Constitution."

Unfortunately, far from holding government officials accountable to abiding by the rule of law, the attorneys general of each successive administration have increasingly aided and abetted the Executive Branch in skirting and, more often than not, flouting the law altogether, justifying all manner of civil liberties and human rights violations and trampling the Constitution in the process, particularly the Fourth Amendment.

No better example is there of the perversion of the office of the AG than its current occupant Eric Holder, who was appointed by President Obama in 2009. Hailed by civil liberties and watchdog groups alike for his pledge to "reverse the disastrous course that we have been on over the past few years" and usher in a new era of civil liberties under Obama, Holder has instead carried on the sorry tradition of his predecessors, going to great lengths to "justify" egregious government actions that can only be described as immoral, unjust and illegal.

Indeed, Holder has managed to eclipse both John Ashcroft and Alberto Gonzalez, whose tenures under George W. Bush earned them constant reproach by Democrats and other left-leaning groups for justifying acts of torture, surveillance of American citizens and clandestine behavior by the government. Holder, however, has largely been given a free pass by these very same groups in much the same way that Obama has. The reason, according to former Senate investigator Paul D. Thacker, is that "Obama is a Democrat. And because he is a Democrat, he's gotten a pass from many of the civil liberty and good-government groups who spent years watching President Bush's every move like a hawk."

Despite getting a "pass" from those who would normally have been crying foul, during his time as attorney general, Holder has "made the Constitution scream"--that according to one of his detractors. The colorful description is apt. Some of the Justice Department's (DOJ) "greatest hits" under Holder begin and end with his stalwart defense of the Obama administration's growing powers, coming as they do at the expense of the Constitution.

Moreover, as head of the DOJ, Holder's domain is vast, spanning several law enforcement agencies, including the United States Marshals Service; FBI; Federal Bureau of Prisons; National Institute of Corrections; Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives; Drug Enforcement Administration; and Office of the Inspector General (OIG), as well as the U.S. National Central Bureau for INTERPOL. To say that the agencies under Holder have struggled to abide by the rule of law is an understatement.

The following are just some of the highlights of the dangerous philosophies embraced and advanced by Holder and his Justice Department.

The military can detain anyone, including American citizens, it deems a threat to the country. Not only has the DOJ persisted in defending a provision of the National Defense Authorization Act that sanctions indefinite detentions of Americans, but it has also blasted the federal judge who ruled the NDAA to be vague and chilling as overstepping the court's authority and infringing on Obama's power to act as Commander in Chief.

Presidential kill lists and drone killings are fine as long as the president thinks someone might have terrorist connections. Holder has gone to great lengths to defend Obama's use of drones to target and kill American citizens, even on U.S. soil, as legally justifiable. In fact, a leaked DOJ memo suggests that the president has the power to murder any American citizen the world over, so long as he has a feeling that they might, at some point in the future, pose a threat to the United States.

The federal government has the right to seize the private property--cash, real estate, cars and other assets--of those suspected of being "connected" to criminal activity, whether or not the suspect is actually guilty. The government actually collects billions of dollars every year through this asset-forfeiture system, which it frequently divvies up with local law enforcement officials, a practice fully supported by the DOJ and a clear incentive for the government to carry out more of these "takings."

Warrantless electronic surveillance of Americans' telephone, email and Facebook accounts is not only permissible but legal. According to court documents, more Americans have had their electronic communications spied on as a result of DOJ orders for phone, email and Internet information--40,000 people alone in 2011--and that doesn't even begin to take into account agencies outside Holder's purview, terrorism investigations or requests by state and local law enforcement officials.

Judicial review is far from necessary. Moreover, while it is legal for the government to use National Security Letters (NSL) to get detailed information on Americans' finances and communications without oversight from a judge, it is illegal to challenge the authority of the Justice Department. Administrative subpoenas or NSLs--convenient substitutes for court-sanctioned warrants that require only a government official's signature in order to force virtually all businesses to hand over sensitive customer information--have become a popular method of bypassing the Fourth Amendment and a vital tool for the DOJ's various agencies. Incredibly, the DOJ actually sued a telecommunications company for daring to challenge the FBI's secret order, lacking in judicial oversight, that it relinquish information about its customers. The FBI alone has issued more than 300,000 NSLs since 2000.

Due process and judicial process are not the same. In one of his earliest attempts to justify targeted assassinations of American citizens by the president, Holder declared in a March 5, 2012 speech at the Northwestern University School of Law that "The Constitution guarantees due process, not judicial process." What Holder was attempting to suggest is that the Fifth Amendment's assurance that "No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law" does not necessarily involve having one's day in court and all that that entails--it simply means that someone, the president for example, should review and be satisfied by the facts before ordering someone's death. As one history professor warned, "Insert even a sliver of difference between due process and judicial process, and you convert liberty into tyranny. Holder, sworn to uphold the laws of the United States, is the mouthpiece of that tyranny, and Obama is its self-appointed judge, jury and executioner."

Government whistleblowers will be bankrupted, blacklisted, blackballed and in some cases banished. As AG, Holder has reportedly prosecuted more government officials for alleged leaks than all his predecessors combined. Relying on the World War I-era Espionage Act, the DOJ has launched an all-out campaign to roust out, prosecute, and imprison government whistleblowers for exposing government corruption, incompetence, and greed. Intelligence analyst Bradley Manning is merely one in a long line of so-called "enemies of the state" to feel the Obama administration's wrath for daring to publicly criticize its policies by leaking information to the media.

Government transparency is important unless government officials are busy, can stonewall, redact, obfuscate or lie about the details, are able to make the case that they are exempt from disclosure or that it interferes with national security. As Slate reports, "President Obama promised transparency and open government. He failed miserably." Not only has Holder proven to be far less transparent than any of his predecessors, however, but his DOJ has done everything in its power to block access to information, even in matters where that information was already known. For example, when asked to explain the "Fast and Furious" debacle in which government operatives trafficked guns to Mexican drug lords, DOJ officials--unaware that much of the facts had already been revealed--"responded with false and misleading information that violated federal law." When pressed for further information, the Justice Department retracted its initial response and refused to say anything more.

When it comes to Wall Street, justice is not blind. As revealed in a PBS Frontline report, the Obama administration has driven federal prosecutions of financial crimes down to a two-decade low, buoyed in its blindness to corporate corruption by campaign donations from Wall Street banks (whom Holder has determined are too big to prosecute anyhow) and staffers whose lucrative financial portfolios came about as a result of chummy relationships with financiers. As David Sirota points outs:

After watching the [PBS] piece, you will understand that the word "justice" belongs in quotes thanks to an Obama administration that has made a mockery of the name of a once hallowed executive department... Rooted in historical comparison, it contrasts how the Reagan administration prosecuted thousands of bankers after the now-quaint-looking S&L scandal with how the Obama administration betrayed the president's explicit promise to "hold Wall Street accountable" and refused to prosecute a single banker connected to 2008's apocalyptic financial meltdown.

Not all suspects should have the right to remain silent. In 2010, Holder began floating the idea that Miranda rights--which require that a suspect be informed of his right to remain silent--should be modified depending on the circumstances. Curiously, the Supreme Court is presently reviewing a case addressing a similar question, namely whether a suspect's silence equates to an admission of guilt.

Clearly, it's not the Constitution that Eric Holder is safeguarding but the power of the presidency. Without a doubt, Holder has taken as his mantra Nixon's mantra that "When the President does it, that means it is not illegal." It may be that the time has come to create a "non-political" and "independent" attorney general, one who would serve the interests of the public by upholding the rule of law rather than justifying the whims of the president.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-w-whitehead/attorney-general-eric-h
ol_b_2900647.html



I especially like this part.

"Indeed, Holder has managed to eclipse both John Ashcroft and Alberto Gonzalez, whose tenures under George W. Bush earned them constant reproach by Democrats and other left-leaning groups for justifying acts of torture, surveillance of American citizens and clandestine behavior by the government. Holder, however, has largely been given a free pass by these very same groups in much the same way that Obama has. The reason, according to former Senate investigator Paul D. Thacker, is that "Obama is a Democrat.""

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Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:41 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!










In Firefly the Alliance merged the US flag with the flag of Communist China

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Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:45 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Thread correction. It should read .. " If THIS President does it, it's legal ".

You're welcome.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, May 31, 2013 2:37 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AURAPTOR:

Thread correction. It should read .. " If THIS President does it, it's legal ".

You're welcome.




Yep.

But I notice that the usual suspects aren't leaping to Holder's defense like they did during Fast n' Furious.

Been posting critical articles and op-eds from sources as disparate as Fox News and Huffington Post, as well as National Review and the Washington Post, and no one has a contrary thing to say.

Could it be that the RWED liberals have thrown the AG under the bus?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, May 31, 2013 5:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

No better example is there of the perversion of the office of the AG than its current occupant Eric Holder, who was appointed by President Obama in 2009... Indeed, Holder has managed to eclipse both John Ashcroft and Alberto Gonzalez, whose tenures under George W. Bush earned them constant reproach by Democrats and other left-leaning groups for justifying acts of torture, surveillance of American citizens and clandestine behavior by the government. Holder, however, has largely been given a free pass by these very same groups in much the same way that Obama has. The reason, according to former Senate investigator Paul D. Thacker, is that "Obama is a Democrat. And because he is a Democrat, he's gotten a pass from many of the civil liberty and good-government groups who spent years watching President Bush's every move like a hawk."


I take issue with several of these statements. Even your own article traces this back to Bush...
Quote:

The FBI alone has issued more than 300,000 NSLs since 2000.
Was Obama President in 2000??

Also, the left is not giving Obama a pass. If you think that, then you clearly don't know what the left is saying, so here are few of today's headlines to acquaint you with news from that direction:

Obama's Imperialism Makes Earth a "Free Fire Zone"

“Terrorism” and the Plans for Absolute Tyranny within the US: Our Need for a New Image of Human Liberation

UN Human Rights Chief Slams US Over Gitmo, 'War on Terror'

The Growing Boycott of Eric Holder Meeting With Press


The issues that the left was fighting against UNDER BUSH- torture, invasion, universal surveillance, habeas corpus, corporate control of government- are the same issues that the left is fighting today. So, where were you when the so-called Patriot Act was passed? What did YOU say about the government splicing into AT&T's international router?

You weren't interested in civil rights under Bush. That was then and this is now. So. What have you done LATELY? Did you call your Congressman and protest SOPA? Write to the FCC for net neutrality? Urge anyone to close Gitmo? Protest the treatment of Bradley Manning? Donate to Julian Assange? Anything???

Yeah, I thought not.


The difference between you and "the left" is that the left has a genuine interest in human rights. All you have is an interest in is slamming Obama. So drop the fake concern, it's not convincing and everyone knows that as soon as a Republican President is elected to the White House (whenever that is) you'll go back to licking ass anyway.

And rappy??? We KNOW what rappy thinks of civil liberties. Torture? OK! Rendition? OK! Universal surveillance? OK! Preventive dentention? Double check! Anything he says on the topic is pretty meaningless.

When I talk with anyone about this, it's with people who are truly interested in the topic and who plan on doing something about it. That means "not you".

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Friday, May 31, 2013 8:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, this is a pretty silly topic.
Quote:

“When the President does it, that means that it is not illegal.” ~ Richard Nixon
Quote:

Matt Lauer: "Why is waterboarding legal?"

Bush: "Because the lawyers said it was legal"





(quote at :30)

Do we really need to go back to make the point that numerous administrations have had that mentality?


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Friday, May 31, 2013 8:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


So, NIKI- to be extremely pointed about this- what have YOU done, under Obama, to right wrongs and promote justice?

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Friday, May 31, 2013 8:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sorry, Sig, I didn't read your post, I merely responded to the initial statement. I'm not sure to what you're referring, so you'll have to clarify.

If you're asking in general, it would be a long answer. Do you mean aside from Occupy and other protest demonstrating, signing petitions, writing my representatives, working for and voting for government officials to be elected/appointed, donating funds and trying to educate others on issues? And if so, what specifically are you asking, and how does it pertain?


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Friday, May 31, 2013 8:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

And if so, what specifically are you asking, and how does it pertain?
It's a "compare and contrast" between the faux "concern" of the right versus the genuine concern of the left. Because I guarantee you that all of the right-wingers who are bleeding beet juice and ketchup all over this topic haven't done a damn thing, then or now. Thank you for your bona fides.

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Friday, May 31, 2013 9:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh. Okay, I read your post, I thought you were asking for specifics or something, so I was writing the following before I read your follow-up.

I've been involved through the above-listed activities in trying to help with, off the top of my head:

Numerous state and national environmental issues

Protecting abortion rights

Closing Gitmo

Increasing funds for the V.A. and veteran assistance in other ways

Replanting Lake Ponchetrain and the Gulf (still attached to that group)

Killing the Patriot Act and things that came with it

Donating and advocating for ildlife protection

Fighting voting rights discrimination

Combating animal abuse

Advocating against fracking

Sponsoring two through Save the Children

Ending Citizens United

Supporting Wolf Haven

Protecting Civil Rights

Advocating for moderate un restrictions

Increasing alternative energy

Ending SOPA

Combating police violence

Advocating for local issues

Fighting privatization of prisons


That's off the top of my head. I'm on the fence about drones; hate 'em, but hate boots-on-the-ground even more, and people keep wanting to go to war... There are other things I'm on the fence about, so I try to stay out of them.

I admit my interest lies more in the environment and animal rights than human rights; my activities are probably 60/40 for the environment/animals over humans, and I'm less involved in individual things like Assange and Manning than I am in the larger causes. I forgot to mention; I make signs for and otherwise volunteer around demonstration, but rarely demonstrate personally any more because I can no longer stand long or walk far, and I write letters to the editor and I read petitions carefully, because often they are the opposite of what the person asking me to sign says they are.


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Friday, May 31, 2013 9:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


With you on much the same things.

Have called, written, and petitioned everyone from my state legislators to my Congresspeople, the President, and the FCC and the Justice Department on everything from net neutrality to Guantanamo, and donated a shitload of money to everything from Amnesty International to PEER (Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility).. in other words, to whistleblowers and groups exercising/ supporting the exercise of political freedoms.

That's not counting my environmental and humanitarian efforts.. but another story for another thread.

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Friday, May 31, 2013 3:51 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I've been assured for years that America does not torture.

Are you now saying that we torture people?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, June 1, 2013 3:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I take issue with several of these statements. Even your own article traces this back to Bush...
Quote:

The FBI alone has issued more than 300,000 NSLs since 2000.
Was Obama President in 2000??

Also, the left is not giving Obama a pass. If you think that, then you clearly don't know what the left is saying, so here are few of today's headlines to acquaint you with news from that direction:.



I wasn't talking about Pres. Obama. The article I cited was mostly about the Attorney General's failings.

How do you feel about AG Holder?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Saturday, June 1, 2013 6:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Actually, the article kinda spews in all directions ... Obama, Holder, Democrats specifically, and leftists in general. So, you want to change the direction of the discussion? Does this mean that you've given up on the idea of pursuing Democrats, left-wingers in general and Obama specifically?

Just, yanno, to be clear on the subject of the discussion, so when it doubles back (and it will) to Obama, Democrats, leftists and whoever else, it will be clear.

----------------

To answer your question- I find Holder to be a very dangerous person. I'm not sure if it's more than Ashcroft (Patriot Act) and Gonzales (torture) or about the same. What I HAVE found is that Holder is pursuing further the very same path laid out by the previous AGs. The most troubling rationalization is the idea that "due process is not judicial process". So Star Chamber proceedings... one of the very things that the FF thought they had eliminated... have been rationalized back into existence. IMHO, Ashcroft and Gonzales should have been impeached, and Holder is right up there with them. Since Ashcroft and Gonzales are no longer AGs, maybe they can be tried for treason? After all, did they not swear to uphold and defend the Constitution? Then three of them can sit in Federal prison together, as a fine example of how NOT to be AG.

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Saturday, June 1, 2013 4:07 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Posted by Signy:


Since Ashcroft and Gonzales are no longer AGs, maybe they can be tried for treason? After all, did they not swear to uphold and defend the Constitution? Then three of them can sit in Federal prison together, as a fine example of how NOT to be AG.





Or they could be executed for treason if found guilty...





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, August 11, 2022 5:04 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Politics, donations, links to old money clubs and the Oklahoma City bomb thing doesn't add up, Epstein blackmail and dropping the ball on islamists, colorblind can't photography or wear mathcing clothes or paint nor see color his eyes only do black and grey and whites ? Bill Clinton nominated Garland to the D.C. Circuit seat, Garland wrote for a unanimous panel that overturned the Combatant Status Review Tribunal's determination that a captured shitlamic Uyghur terrorist on the battle field was an enemy combatant, Samuel Irving Rosenman links to Shabot Goy Harry S. Truman, raised in the SHIT-cago area, the mother Shirley née Horwitz director of volunteer services at Chicago's Council for Jewish Elderly, nominated to serve as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, to fill the vacancy created by the death of Antonin Scalia. Yale connections and Harvard Club in Manhattan, used the FBI to intimidate and harass parents concerned about Marxist Transexual indoctrination of their children in public schools

AG Garland: "I personally approved" the Mar-a-Lago raid

https://www.bitchute.com/video/TloGxpgYUNKt/


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Thursday, August 11, 2022 10:17 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Speaking of fundraising, I heard that Trump is getting more campaign donations than he ever did before, and he hasn't even announced he's running yet.

Unless you count that video he dropped right after the Democrats raided his house, which was obviously a campaign ad.



Tick Tock

--------------------------------------------------

Falsus in unum, falsus in omnibus

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Friday, August 12, 2022 5:47 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Former FBI deputy assistant director of counterterrorism Terry Turchie said Attorney General Merrick Garland wouldn't recommend approval for a search warrant for the Unabomber's cabin on Thursday's "Jesse Watters Primetime."

https://www.foxnews.com/media/merrick-garland-recommend-approval-ag-se
arch-warrant-unabombers-cabin-former-fbi-official

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