REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Scariest Climate Change Graph Just Got Scarier

POSTED BY: 1KIKI
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 06:47
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Friday, March 15, 2013 2:44 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Hubby and I were talking, as we sometimes do, about the fate of the world. He asked when people would wake up. Basically, I said that most people (not counting those like rappy) would wake up when serious deterioration becomes evident within their lifetime. Humans are simply not good at responding to generational changes.


Yeah, that's what I was getting at, in a way. People won't see that the shit has hit the fan if they weren't alive to see the un-shitty fan.

Quote:

But IMHO it doesn't matter what "most" people think, because "most" people do not have a say in anything important. All you have to do is look at that link to wealth inequity in the USA

True, but the masses do cause a slow, lumbering change. Occupy WS did not directly change anything, but it did get a damned important conversation going that I think had a HUGE effect on the election. The 47% issue was so damned big because the stage was set for the statement to be meaningful.

Our government is designed to change slowly. I think it is changing in the right direction, aided by all this easy information on the web. IMO that'll be what saves the environment (though it won't come through unscathed, sadly.) People will be able to see, live and in high res on their cell phones, the shit that's going down. And we'll have a detailed record of the past.

It may help with that generational memory thing, too.

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Friday, March 15, 2013 3:38 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
KPO- I implore you not to engage rappy on this topic (and many others). You will only become frustrated, and any realistic conversation about the topic will be buried in mounds of rappy-crap.

Thank you!



Just keep making up b.s. bout folks with whom you disagree, as if that'll some how make your lunatic views any more valid.

( Hint: It doesn't )

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, March 15, 2013 3:45 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
KPO- I implore you not to engage rappy on this topic (and many others). You will only become frustrated, and any realistic conversation about the topic will be buried in mounds of rappy-crap.

Thank you!


Nah, rappy needs to be skewered every now and then. And I don't get frustrated with him, he just blows my mind.

Quote:

Any post that starts: "But, Rappy, can't you understand--"

Well I promise I'll never start a post like that.

It's not personal. It's just war.



At what point did my comments 'blow your mind' ? Was it when I said that we don't have enough evidence on the matter of AGW ?

I got news for ya... it's not just ME saying it, off the top of my head.

The long and short of it: My bottom line is the planet has warmed, planet does not warm or cool in a strait line, scientists know the planet has been warmer and cooler before (ice ages non-ice ages), weather should not be confused with climate--climate is the sum of all weather, man contributes but so do natural cycles of earth and sun, I don't think we know enough-- to dismiss or embrace -- attribution or extreme forecasts, future is uncertain, uncertainty does not mean no action it means cautious action, must be all nations not USA alone, not in favor of bold costly schemes like geo-enginnering, science is rarely if ever "settled".

There's a good chance we'll have a good idea who's right in as little as 20 years because one side sees more global warming and the other side says we've already started a cooling slide into the next mini ice age.
- WSB's Kirk Mellish

http://www.wsbradio.com/weblogs/kirk-mellishs-weather-commentary/2013/
mar/04/brief-statement-global-climate
/

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, March 16, 2013 5:02 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Where were you in the mid-90's when we were doing so well? Maybe you were one of the 300 people in the country chaining yourself up to trees that were being cut down, but my guess is that you were getting high at Lilith Fair."

I was already pretty old in the 90's, and I have no idea what a Lillith Fair is so your guess - which I've quoted here to keep in all its pristine idiocy - is a product of your wild imagination, a lot of peculiar and misapplied stereotypes, and a pickled brain.

Like SignyM I was also working for an environmental organization that has measurably made the environment better. How do I know? B/c I make the measurements. Donating large LARGE sums of money to the Nature Conservancy b/c I didn't trust the abilities of organizations like the Sierra Club to do much good with my money. Taking care of family to the best of my ability.

I'm sorry for you that you have such regrets over your wasted and useless past and disconnected ineffective present. But that doesn't mean everyone else did what you did, or that they are where you are.

ETA: In my mid-thirties I had my current house completely paid for. If that's your sole measure of success, then I was already there and did that a long long time ago, a long time before the mid 90's.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 3:14 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

I was already pretty old in the 90's, and I have no idea what a Lillith Fair is so your guess - which I've quoted here to keep in all its pristine idiocy - is a product of your wild imagination, a lot of peculiar and misapplied stereotypes, and a pickled brain.




I thought every Left winger was well acquainted with Lilith Fair. Huh.



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 4:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

True, but the masses do cause a slow, lumbering change. Occupy WS did not directly change anything, but it did get a damned important conversation going that I think had a HUGE effect on the election. The 47% issue was so damned big because the stage was set for the statement to be meaningful.

I agree, also that there WILL be change--there already is, just not enough to make much of an impact, and what change comes and when it comes will, in my opinion, be too late to have enough impact. For me it's just sad that America, supposedly so unique, rich, ahead of its time and innovative (as so many Americans believe) is dragging its feet worse than so many other, supposedly-less-educated, poorer countries.

As to the products of "wild imagination, a lot of peculiar and misapplied stereotypes, and a pickled brain", exchange "pickled" for "propagandized", and that might speak in part to virtually ALL of our deniers...what's slightly amusing is that so much energy is put INTO denying, over and over and over and over. That kinda speaks volumes, to me.

I stayed out of this thread and it was hard, but as it turned out better voices than mine made all the valid points I would have, and more, and I thank you.


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Sunday, March 17, 2013 4:27 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
And still...

Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Auraptor, can you understand--



NO! No he can't and he never will!!!




I guess the meteorologists whose comments I've posted, and who study this for a living, don't understand either.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 7:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

That's not helping much. I need to be told what to do to help save the planet.


JONGGSTRAW... Sorry that this question got buried in my avalanche of "nothing will be done".

Here are two answers which I think will be of some use:

1) Where do you stand on Keystone XL pipeline? And where does your Senator and Representative stand, and where does the President stand? (Congress is seeking to approve Keystone pipeline to get around the President's stalling.)

Keystone represents the entire problem in one vote. On the one hand are the environmentalists and scientists. They say because extracting the tar sands requires ripping up huge swaths of forest, and because pre-processing the bitumen to make it fluid enough to flow requires so much energy and water, that it is the equivalent of mountaintop removal coal mining in its immediate environmental and later climate impact. They also worry that the pipeline runs right through the northern Ogallala aquifer. The Ogallala aquifer is geologic water leftover from glacial melt, and an important source for farmers and ranchers throughout the west and midwest. Environmentalists, and some farmers and rachers worry that a large pipeline rupture could ruin the water... well, forever, as far as humans are concerned.

On the other hand are the oil industries and friendly Congresspeople who say that we need to seek our energy independence, that the pipeline would create jobs, and that processing and exporting the oil would improve our balance of trade (altho frankly, I don's see how we can BOTH export AND sequester the oil.)

2) How do you feel about fracking? Many of the same arguments exist on both sides of the fracking issue.... protecting aquifers and reducing climate change causing some people to reject fracking... "making money", creating jobs and "energy independence" causing some people to be for it.

Once you have decided where you are on this issue, then go balls-to-the wall on it. If you've decided that you're against these extractive processes/ projects, see how far you get...

Of such step-by-step decisions is our future made.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:26 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Still efforting to find that proof from this or any other site that I'm a 'racist', are ya Sig?

As you were.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:39 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

At what point did my comments 'blow your mind' ?

Just generally, you blow my mind.

Quote:

Was it when I said that we don't have enough evidence on the matter of AGW ?

No, that's pretty much the right-wing line on the subject - climate change denialism. It would surprise me if you didn't believe it.

Quote:

I got news for ya... it's not just ME saying it

Yes, an Atlanta meteorologist isn't convinced by the theory of AGW. That's really going to rock the scientific world...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:40 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Still efforting to find that proof from this or any other site that I'm a 'racist', are ya Sig?

When did 'effort' become a verb?? Don't do that again.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:04 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Still efforting to find that proof from this or any other site that I'm a 'racist', are ya Sig?

When did 'effort' become a verb?? Don't do that again.




LOL

That's the ( not so )new inside the beltway lingo for " working on ", or another way of saying " I don't have an answer for you at this time, but I'll check back w/ you later after I've had time to dream up something which sounds plausible ".

As for the other stuff you posted 'bout taking time to compile credible evidence for or against AGW ... meh. You don't want to go there, I can tell.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:14 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"As for the other stuff you posted 'bout taking time to compile credible evidence for or against AGW ... meh. You don't want to go there, I can tell."

Looks like little rappy didn't want to go there, either.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


GAWD BLESS YOU SIG! That was excellent.

As to "compiling evidence", we've been there/done that many times, so of course we all know nothing will ever make those whose heads are deeeeeeply buried in the sand pay any attention. Every time someone--be they scientist, politician or just plain hack--comes up with a question, it will serve to firmly convince poor Rap and his ilk that THEY are right, and the literally thousands of scientists worldwide who have long proven its existence are wrong.

But what the hell, I'LL go there. I hereby offer the Dummies Guide to Climate Change:
Quote:

Is there scientific consensus on climate change?

The major scientific agencies of the United States — including the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) — agree that climate change is occurring and that humans are contributing to it. In 2010, the National Research Council concluded that "Climate change is occurring, is very likely caused by human activities, and poses significant risks for a broad range of human and natural systems". [1] Many independent scientific organizations have released similar statements, both in the United States and abroad. This doesn't necessarily mean that every scientist sees eye to eye on each component of the climate change problem, but broad agreement exists that climate change is happening and is primarily caused by excess greenhouse gases from human activities.

Scientists are still researching a number of important questions, including exactly how much Earth will warm, how quickly it will warm, and what the consequences of the warming will be in specific regions of the world. Scientists continue to research these questions so society can be better informed about how to plan for a changing climate. However, enough certainty exists about basic causes and effects of climate change to justify taking actions that reduce future risks.

What is the evidence that proves the climate is changing?

The global average temperature increased by more than 1.4°F over the last century. [2] In fact, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), the decade from 2000 to 2010 was the warmest on record, and 2010 was tied with 2005 as the warmest year on record. [3] Rising global temperatures have also been accompanied by other changes in weather and climate. Many places have experienced changes in rainfall resulting in more intense rain, as well as more frequent and severe heat waves. The planet's oceans and glaciers have also experienced changes: oceans are warming and becoming more acidic, ice caps are melting, and sea levels are rising. [4] All of these changes are evidence that our world is getting warmer.

Are human activities or natural variations in climate responsible for the climate change being observed today?

The Earth does go through natural cycles of warming and cooling, caused by factors such as changes in the sun or volcanic activity. This has been closely examined, and the warming we have seen in the past 50 years cannot be explained by natural factors alone. [5] This figure illustrates one piece of evidence that shows that recent global warming is primarily a result of greenhouse gas emissions from human activities.



This figure shows the observed average global temperatures from 1900 to 2000 (black line) along with the temperature ranges predicted by climate models. The blue band shows the expected temperature range based on climate models that account only for natural forces. The pink band represents the temperature range predicted by climate models that also include emissions of greenhouse gases from human activities. The recent increase in average global temperatures aligns with the predicted temperatures from the model that includes the greenhouse gas emission.

Is climate change influenced more by human activities and excess greenhouse gases or changes in the sun's energy?

The sun has natural periods of warming and cooling. With satellites, scientists have measured fluctuations in the sun's energy and found that these recent variations have been small in comparison to human influences in the last several centuries, with no increase in solar energy in the past 50 years. [2] Thus, changes in the sun's energy cannot explain the warming we have seen over the past several decades. In contrast, the warming we are observing is consistent with the warming properties of carbon dioxide and other heat-trapping gases that we are adding to the atmosphere.

How can carbon dioxide hurt us?

Carbon dioxide is a necessary ingredient for plants to perform photosynthesis, and a critical component of our atmosphere. However, you can have too much of a good thing. The excess carbon dioxide we are adding to the atmosphere increases global temperatures, leading to climate changes that can harm plants, animals, and humans.

How can a change of one or two degrees in global average temperatures have an impact on our lives?

Changing the average global temperature by even a degree or two can lead to serious consequences around the globe. For about every 2°F of warming, we can expect to see

•5—15% reductions in the yields of crops as currently grown

•3—10% increases in the amount of rain falling during the heaviest precipitation events, which can increase flooding risks

•5—10% decreases in stream flow in some river basins, including the Arkansas and the Rio Grande

•200%—400% increases in the area burned by wildfire in parts of the western United States [6]

Global average temperatures have increased more than 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit over the last 100 years. [2] Many of the extreme precipitation and heat events that we have seen in recent years are consistent with what we would expect given this amount of warming. [5] Scientists project that Earth's average temperatures will rise between 2 and 12 degrees Fahrenheit by 2100. [1]

Do a few extra cold or snowy winters in your hometown mean that climate change is not happening?

A few extra cold or snowy winters in your hometown doesn't mean that global warming isn't happening. We know thatglobal average temperatures are rising. However, even with this global warming, at the local or regional level, we can expect to have some colder-than-average seasons or even colder-than-average years. For example, in the Eastern United States, the winters of 2010 and 2011 were colder than the average winters from the previous decades. In fact, extra snowy winters can be expected. In a warmer climate, more water vapor is held in the atmosphere causing more intense rain and snow storms. As the climate warms, we do expect the duration of the snow season to decrease — however, as long as it is still cold enough to snow, a warming climate can lead to bigger snowstorms. [5]

Do emissions of carbon dioxide from human activities have a big impact on Earth's climate?

Plants, oceans, and soils release and absorb large quantities of carbon dioxide as a part of the Earth's natural carbon cycle. These natural emissions and absorptions of carbon dioxide on average balance out over time. However, the carbon dioxide from human activities is not part of this natural balance. Ice core measurements reveal that carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere are higher than they have been for at least 800,000 years. [5] The global warming that has been observed in recent decades was caused by elevated levels of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, due primarily to human activities.[1]

In the past, has Earth been warmer than it is today? If so, does that mean we shouldn't worry about global warming?

There were times in the distant past when Earth was warmer than it is now. However, human societies have developed and thrived during the relatively stable climate that has existed since the last ice age. Due to excess carbon dioxide pollution, the climate is no longer stable and is instead projected to change faster than at any other time in human history. This rapid climate change will expose people to serious risks. Sea level rise, increasing droughts and wildfires in some regions and increasing flooding in others, more heat waves, and other effects of climate change all pose risks to human health, infrastructure critical to our homes, roads, and cities, and the ecosystems that support us. [5]

Will a small rise in sea level affect people (even in the United States)?

A small rise in sea level will affect many people, even in the United States. The amount of sea level rise expected to occur as a result of climate change will increase the risk of coastal flooding for millions to hundreds of millions of people around the world, many of whom would have to permanently leave their homes. [7] Global sea level has risen approximately 9 inches, on average, in the last 140 years. [4] This has already put some coastal homes, beaches, roads, bridges, and wildlife at risk. [5] By the year 2100, sea level is expected to rise another 1.5 to 3 feet. [6] Rising seas will make coastal storms and the associated storm surges more frequent and destructive. For example, in New York City what is currently termed a once-in-a-century coastal flooding event could occur as frequently as once per decade. [5]

Are the temperature records showing global warming is happening reliable?

Multiple temperature records from all over the world have all shown a warming trend, and these records have been deemed reliable by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), among others. [8] Other observations that point to higher global temperature includes: warmer oceans, melting arctic sea ice and glaciers, sea level rise, increasing precipitation, and changing wind patterns. [4] http://epa.gov/climatechange/facts.html]
Now, Rap and those like him will most likely say "all that is bullshit" BECAUSE the source is the EPA (which of course to them reads "government=Obama=can't-be-right"). To which I say: Show us verifiable data that refutes what is stated in that quote; the source means nothing if you cannot refute what it states. Which will, of course, mean nothing to them, and we know where it goes from there.

But I offered it, and at the site there are references and details enough to make your head spin. If our deniers would actually bother to READ what's there, check the references, look at the charts and graphs and backup data, it might mean something to them. Which we know they will not. Most likely, if they bother to do anything but snark, they will hunt around for SOME kind of data to negate what's offered, and I'm sure they'll find it, by at least one "scientist".

Nonetheless, there is, in "white and black", the simplest and most comprehensive explanation of the issue one can easily locate, period. And it only took a few minutes.

Leaving America aside, and thinking in terms of SCIENCE, try this on for size:
Quote:

97% of climate experts agree humans are causing global warming.

Science achieves a consensus when scientists stop arguing. When a question is first asked – like ‘what would happen if we put a load more CO2 in the atmosphere?’ – there may be many hypotheses about cause and effect. Over a period of time, each idea is tested and retested – the processes of the scientific method – because all scientists know that reputation and kudos go to those who find the right answer (and everyone else becomes an irrelevant footnote in the history of science). Nearly all hypotheses will fall by the wayside during this testing period, because only one is going to answer the question properly, without leaving all kinds of odd dangling bits that don’t quite add up. Bad theories are usually rather untidy.

But the testing period must come to an end. Gradually, the focus of investigation narrows down to those avenues that continue to make sense, that still add up, and quite often a good theory will reveal additional answers, or make powerful predictions, that add substance to the theory. When Russian scientist Dmitri Mendeleev constructed his periodic table of elements, not only did he fit all known elements successfully, he predicted that elements we didn’t even know about would turn up later on – and they did!

So a consensus in science is different from a political one. There is no vote. Scientists just give up arguing because the sheer weight of consistent evidence is too compelling, the tide too strong to swim against any longer. Scientists change their minds on the basis of the evidence, and a consensus emerges over time. Not only do scientists stop arguing, they also start relying on each other's work. All science depends on that which precedes it, and when one scientist builds on the work of another, he acknowledges the work of others through citations. The work that forms the foundation of climate change science is cited with great frequency by many other scientists, demonstrating that the theory is widely accepted - and relied upon.

In the scientific field of climate studies – which is informed by many different disciplines – the consensus is demonstrated by the number of scientists who have stopped arguing about what is causing climate change – and that’s nearly all of them. A survey of all peer-reviewed abstracts on the subject 'global climate change' published between 1993 and 2003 shows that not a single paper rejected the consensus position that global warming is man caused. 75% of the papers agreed with the consensus position while 25% made no comment either way, focusing on methods or paleoclimate analysis (Oreskes 2004).

Several subsequent studies confirm that “...the debate on the authenticity of global warming and the role played by human activity is largely nonexistent among those who understand the nuances and scientific basis of long-term climate processes”. (Doran 2009). In other words, more than 95% of scientists working in the disciplines contributing to studies of our climate, accept that climate change is almost certainly being caused by human activities.

We should also consider official scientific bodies and what they think about climate change. There are no national or major scientific institutions anywhere in the world that dispute the theory of anthropogenic climate change. Not one.

In the field of climate science, the consensus is unequivocal: human activities are causing climate change. http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-scientific-consensus.ht
m


I rest my case.


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Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:06 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"As for the other stuff you posted 'bout taking time to compile credible evidence for or against AGW ... meh. You don't want to go there, I can tell."

Looks like little rappy didn't want to go there, either.




BIG Raptor actually did already go there, but others didn't care to follow.


And Niki, 97% is a meaningless stat in this case. It's too soon to tell for sure, and even if man is assisting in the warming, some, there's not a damn thing we can do about it.


Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:35 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


OOhhh lookit little rappy complaining the dog ate his homework. Isn't that so ... lame?



ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU KID!

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
OOhhh lookit little rappy complaining the dog ate his homework. Isn't that so ... lame?






Grow the fuck up, how about ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:56 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
And still...

Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Auraptor, can you understand--



NO! No he can't and he never will!!!


My question to Auraptor was a challenge, that got him to back down from a nonsense argument (that the earth's warming doesn't matter). It wasn't an entreaty, and it wasn't an appeal to understanding.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:02 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I didn't and don't back down, kpo.

The Earth warms and cools. It's beyond our man's ability to alter that in any significant manner.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:07 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

As for the other stuff you posted 'bout taking time to compile credible evidence for or against AGW ... meh. You don't want to go there, I can tell.

I don't recall saying anything about taking time to compile evidence. I'd be interested to see any evidence that you've got to offer (even though I suspect it would be another opinion piece, not actual 'evidence'); but I know that any evidence I offered would be ignored.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:12 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"BIG Raptor actually did already go there, but others didn't care to follow."

Yes, that's why there are so many links to actual scientific studies to back up little rappy's numerous claims. His diving was so deep he got all the way to an opinion piece by TV weatherman for his information.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:21 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

I didn't and don't back down, kpo.

Not even when you're wrong?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:23 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

As for the other stuff you posted 'bout taking time to compile credible evidence for or against AGW ... meh. You don't want to go there, I can tell.

I don't recall saying anything about taking time to compile evidence.



I posted the opinion of a meteorologist who said exactly that. There are others, of course, but I'm sure they'd be dismissed in equal, broad brush fashion, so what's the point ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:25 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

I didn't and don't back down, kpo.

Not even when you're wrong?




I'm not wrong.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Especially when he's wrong.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:35 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Especially when he's wrong.



Again, w/ the growing up thing... ya might want to see to that.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:37 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Strange, I thought I was posting to KPO. Little rappy musta' misunderstood.



ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU KID!

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:50 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Strange, I thought I was posting to KPO. Little rappy musta' misunderstood.





And yet, you posted here, on an open forum. Huh.



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 1:32 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

I didn't and don't back down, kpo.

Not even when you're wrong?




I'm not wrong.



But when you are?

Quote:

Especially when he's wrong.

LOL! I thought the exact same thing after I typed the question.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 1:37 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"And yet, you posted here, on an open forum. Huh."

And little rappy responded AS IF it was directed at him. Huh.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 1:39 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Ok I have a specific challenge for you Auraptor. Niki listed some major scientific institutions who have come out in firm support of AGW. I challenge you to cite the most respected, authoritative scientific body or institution (i.e. not individual) you can find that denies or disputes AGW.

Eta: I forgot to add, it should be a non political scientific body. No right wing think tanks!

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 1:51 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Mere code words ' most respected, authoritative, scientific body or institution...'

That's not how science works. The 'establishment ' holds the high ground fiercely, and does NOT like to be challenged.

Robert Bakker, paleontologist, was a rebel in the field. He bucked the 'establishment' position that dinosaurs were slow moving, dim witted cold bloods. It was a view held for decades, by the most renowned institutions.

The science of 'climate change', has too much money at risk and is too well politically backed to collapse so easily.

Time is on my side.


Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 3:52 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Christ. I've posted the 100,000 year graph. ...





Thanks for posting it again. Now that "hockey stick" doesn't look that scary anymore, does it?

Again, I am not saying there is no warming, or that it isn't anthropogenic. I am just rolling my eyes at doom-and-gloom, Cassandra, catastrophic wailing graphs that exist for no other purpose than to manipulate emotions.

Anyway, we should talk about how to take better care of our planet, whether the hockey stick is scary or not.


-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 4:20 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Christ. I've posted the 100,000 year graph. ...





Thanks for posting it again. Now that "hockey stick" doesn't look that scary anymore, does it?



WTF are you talking about? Do you SEE what's happening on the far right of this graph? Does this look like anything that's happened in the past 250,000 years?

Let me help: the dashed curvy line (solar radiation) goes down. The solid line (methane) goes down too. Always. Except once: NOW! Something different is happening.

Take off the blinders CTS! Or, move the goal posts and demand some other bit of random weird evidence that you will again ignore. You asked for temperature data, I gave it. You ignored it. You asked for data over 100,000's of years. I gave it. You ignore it.

Sorry, but I've lost any concept of you being a rational being. Claiming you're all into science means nothing, when you're incapable of walking the walk.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 5:24 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I see that rappy has completely hijacked this discussion, but since Jongsstraw asked an honest question, I'm way more interested in his (her?) take on Keystone pipeline and fracking.

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Monday, March 18, 2013 9:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Moi aussi.

The rest is bullshit; just as predicted, Rap carefully put aside the MOUNTAIN of scientists, authorities, agencies, etc. who say one thing and focused on one person's "opinion", trying to validate it by saying someone had an opinion once which was contrary to accepted fact and they were proven right. We all knew that would be the case.

A graph showing one thing quite clearly was dismissed as unimportant(I guess because it had a lot of ups and downs over time, rather than a steep curve, or something?). That was pretty predictable...

Nothing will change on that front, if it had taken any time, I wouldn't have bothered putting up what I did, it was just a quick and easy way to answer the challenge, and it is accompanied by TONS of scientific references, data, cites, etc.

So any interest in discussing something specific would be most interesting, to me.


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Monday, March 18, 2013 11:32 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Mere code words ' most respected, authoritative, scientific body or institution...'

Haha. I'll come back to this.

Quote:

That's not how science works. The 'establishment ' holds the high ground fiercely, and does NOT like to be challenged.

Robert Bakker, paleontologist, was a rebel in the field. He bucked the 'establishment' position...


And is this how science works? Always? The 'rebel' inventor who has built a perpetual-motion machine in his garage, and whose designs have all been turned away by NASA - that's the 'establishment' refusing to be challenged? Face it AUraptor, when you have voices on the outside that are shunned by the scientific community, it's usually because they are oddballs, kooks and lousy scientists (if scientists at all).

So back to my 'challenge', and the question of which scientific institutions back climate skepticism. Do you concede that there aren't any? That all you have is a few isolated, outsider voices that the rest of the scientific community - even those NOT government-funded - are completely unimpressed by?

If so that's encouraging, because that's pretty much the true picture

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 10:55 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Bump for Auraptor. Found any skeptic independent scientific institutions/groups/ bodies aurap?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 11:57 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
You asked for temperature data, I gave it. You ignored it.

I didn't ignore it. I said it's not scary. Not in the larger context.

So you show me a graph where rise in temperature is no longer closely correlated with methane levels.

Sorry, still not scary.



-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 12:12 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
You asked for temperature data, I gave it. You ignored it.

I didn't ignore it. I said it's not scary. Not in the larger context.

So you show me a graph where rise in temperature is no longer closely correlated with methane levels.

Sorry, still not scary.



I don't give a crap if you're scared or not. However, I will continue to mock you for your inability to assess or even discuss scientific observations with any kind of intellectual honesty.

Have a nice day.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:54 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
I don't give a crap if you're scared or not.

That was my entire response to this thread entitled "graph got scarier." I said, "No, it's not scary unless I can see it in context." You sent the context. And I said, "No, it's still not scary."

I don't give a shit if you give a crap. My response ain't gonna change based on these two graphs.

But I'll tell you what. HERE is a graph that actually IS scary. And it's in context and everything. I like it because it is a graph of actual data, and not a graph of some fake mathematical construct called "average annual global surface temperature."

http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/




-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Thursday, March 21, 2013 1:46 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Moi aussi.

The rest is bullshit; just as predicted, Rap carefully put aside the MOUNTAIN of scientists, authorities, agencies, etc. who say one thing and focused on one person's "opinion", trying to validate it by saying someone had an opinion once which was contrary to accepted fact and they were proven right. We all knew that would be the case.



'Put aside'? More accurately, objectively viewed, just as have others have , Niki.
And those 'others' not only are in the weather business, but they have no real vested interest( see AlGore ) in pumping up this phony climate change nonsense, as do govt agencies and other scientists who rely on govt funding.

And the graph tricks used by the alarmists are well known.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 21, 2013 1:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Bump for Auraptor. Found any skeptic independent scientific institutions/groups/ bodies aurap?

It's not personal. It's just war.



Bump as many times as you like, my original answer still stands.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, March 21, 2013 5:03 AM

STORYMARK


Still worth it, just to laugh at your perpetual intellectual dishonesty, rappy boy.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, March 21, 2013 1:37 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Bump as many times as you like, my original answer still stands.

Don't worry, I saw your original non-answer. Just wanted to check that you couldn't actually name any science bodies who dispute AGW.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:23 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Reference to CTS's CO2 graph, which I won't repost because it stretches the text too far.



OK, that's really funny, because that's a graph of CO2 data taken from the same ice cores that gave the CH4 data which I posted above (you found it NOT SCARY). It's also the same CO2 data I plotted years ago (that was when you couldn't continue the conversation because I hadn't been nice enough to you) but it has the more recent data appended to show the height of the spike relative to past data.

That's reasonable. People who spend a lot of time looking at and plotting data can recall a graph from years ago and update it when new data comes out. I knew what the spike on the OP's graph meant. But an updated version of the data all on one graph is necessary to make it obvious to everyone.

So I'll give you that one.

Still, if you hadn't been so offended by me that you refuse to read Ruddiman's book, (as if there's ever a good excuse to remain ignorant!) this other graph might not have been necessary to "scare" you.

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Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:48 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
...the CH4 data which I posted above (you found it NOT SCARY).

That's right. The methane didn't scare me. At all.

Quote:

...but it has the more recent data appended to show the height of the spike relative to past data.


The height of the spike is the scary part. The rest of the graph isn't, except to highlight the height of the spike.

Quote:


Still, if you hadn't been so offended by me that you refuse to read Ruddiman's book, ..

Believe it or not, it is still on my Amazon wishlist. I didn't read it cause I have been reading a lot of other stuff, and truth be told, climate change is a low priority topic with me. It had nothing to do with being offended by you.



-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Thursday, March 21, 2013 4:01 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
...the CH4 data which I posted above (you found it NOT SCARY).

That's right. The methane didn't scare me. At all.

Which shows your inability to interpret a graph.

Quote:

...but it has the more recent data appended to show the height of the spike relative to past data.

The height of the spike is the scary part. The rest of the graph isn't, except to highlight the height of the spike.



Yeah. And the rest of us are aware of the "older" data, and knew the height of the spike because we are paying attention. You needed a melded-together graph to see it because your knowledge of the topic is extremely shallow.

And yet you feel you see things that climate scientists don't.

Whatever.

Quote:

Quote:


Still, if you hadn't been so offended by me that you refuse to read Ruddiman's book, ..

Believe it or not, it is still on my Amazon wishlist. I didn't read it cause I have been reading a lot of other stuff, and truth be told, climate change is a low priority topic with me. It had nothing to do with being offended by you.



Really? That's not what you said in the thread:

"Now, be nice and stop calling me a hypocrite. Or I won't buy Ruddiman's book. :P"

You claimed to have ordered it and were planning to read it "later", and yet you never did. It's been a long, long time! Funny how your lack of education doesn't stop you for stating your opinions as if they are truths. Funny too, that the book wasn't that hard for me to obtain years and years ago. Avoiding reality that doesn't fit your happy CTS-is-better-than-everyone-and-always-right mind frame really is your way, huh?

Or are you still going with the approach that scientists have to be rigorous with the scientific method, but you can dismiss their findings without any actual evidence because you aren't a scientist? You are an expert, though you haven't bothered to read the damned book?

Oh, sorry, that's the same thing as option 1. I got your argument right here: CTS=always right, whether she knows what she's talking about or not.

Brilliant!

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Thursday, March 21, 2013 4:52 PM

MAL4PREZ


Wow. I've been looking over some of the old climate change threads. CTS - I forgot what a loon you are! You've changed at least a little: the CO2 data you dismissed out of hand a few years you have now declared "scary", but only for the graph that you yourself posted. Because you couldn't assess data from other people, I guess.

Yeah, Niki was right. Not much point trying to pull you out of the hole you live in. You'll pull yourself out in time, or you won't.

Good luck!


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Thursday, March 21, 2013 4:59 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Still worth it, just to laugh at your perpetual intellectual dishonesty, rappy boy.



Where's the intellectual dishonesty ? Or do you just like using terms to which you don't know the meaning ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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