REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Are we all imprisoned w/in the USA?

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 6, 2006 15:27
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2010
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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 10:45 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


We're All Prisoners, Now: US Citizens to be Required ''Clearance'' to Leave USA



October 26, 2006

Forget no-fly lists. If Uncle Sam gets its way, beginning on Jan. 14,
2007, we'll all be on no-fly lists, unless the government gives us permission to leave-or re-enter-the United States.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security (HSA) has proposed that all airlines, cruise lines-even fishing boats-be required to obtain clearance for each passenger they propose taking into or out of the United States.

It doesn't matter if you have a U.S. Passport -a "travel document" that now, absent a court order to the contrary, gives you a virtually unqualified right to enter or leave the United States, any time you want. When the DHS system comes into effect next January, if the agency says "no" to a clearance request, or doesn't answer the request at all, you won't be permitted to enter-or leave-the United States.

Consider what might happen if you're a U.S. passport holder on assignment in a country like Saudi Arabia. Your visa is about to expire, so you board your flight back to the United States. But wait! You can't get on, because you don't have permission from the HSA. Saudi immigration officials are on hand to escort you to a squalid
detention center, where you and others who are now effectively "stateless persons" are detained, potentially indefinitely, until their immigration status is sorted out.

Why might the HSA deny you permission to leave-or enter-the United States? No one knows, because the entire clearance procedure would be an administrative determination made secretly, with no right of appeal. Naturally, the decision would be made without a warrant, without probable cause and without even any particular degree of suspicion. Basically, if the HSA decides it doesn't like you, you're a prisoner - either outside, or inside, the United States, whether or
not you hold a U.S. passport.

The U.S. Supreme Court has long recognized there is a constitutional right to travel internationally. Indeed, it has declared that the
right to travel is "a virtually unconditional personal right." The United States has also signed treaties guaranteeing "freedom of travel." So if these regulations do go into effect, you can expect a lengthy court battle, both nationally and internationally.

Think this can't happen? Think again. It's ALREADY happening. Earlier this year, HSA forbade airlines from transporting an 18-year-old a
native-born U.S. citizen, back to the United States. The prohibition lasted nearly six months until it was finally lifted a few weeks ago.
Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union are two countries in recent history that didn't allow their citizens to travel abroad without permission. If these regulations go into effect, you can add the United States to this list.

For more information on this proposed regulation, see http://
hasbrouck.org/IDP/IDP-APIS-comments.pdf.


---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 10:58 AM

GLADIATOR32


That's shocking news, but somehow, I can see all western countries going this way. Goverments love to use terrorism etc. as an excuse for oppression and control...

-------------------------------

www.colchestergladiators.com
www.myspace.com/32dan32

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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 11:24 AM

RAZZA


Signym:

Your link doesn't appear to working that well. Possibly it's just experiencing trouble at the moment. I did do some searching on this, and found the following link:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?position=all&page=
40035&dbname=2006_register


This will give you direct access to a page from the Federal Register that actually outlines the changes to the existing policy. The only changes I can find to existing regulations are,

"...electronic manifest transmission
requirements relative to passengers,
crew members, and non-crew members
traveling onboard international
commercial flights and voyages. Under
current regulations, air carriers must
transmit to the Bureau of Customs and
Border Protection (CBP), Department of
Homeland Security (DHS), passenger
manifest information for aircraft en
route to the United States no later than
15 minutes after the departure of the
aircraft. This proposed rule implements
the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism
Prevention Act of 2004 requirement that
such information be provided to the
government before departure of the
aircraft. This proposed rule provides air
carriers a choice between transmitting
complete manifests no later than 60-
minutes prior to departure of the aircraft
or transmitting manifest information on
passengers as each passenger checks in
for the flight, up to but no later than 15
minutes prior to departure. The rule
also proposes to amend the definition of
‘‘departure’’ for aircraft to mean the
moment the aircraft is pushed back from
the gate. For vessel departures from the
United States, the rule proposes
transmission of passenger and crew
manifests no later than 60 minutes prior
to departure of the vessel."

Not sure how this constitutes a major shift in current procedures or represents an agregious plan to implement a totalitarian state bent on preventing its citizens from ever crossing the borders. It sounds to me like all they want to do is have infomation about passengers on flights before the flight departs rather than after. What am I missing?

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 11:28 AM

CHRISISALL


I like being a prisoner. Prisoners are safe.
Except from that big horney dude over there *cringes*

Saftey over liberty Chrisisall

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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 11:56 AM

RAZZA


Okay, was able to get some further information for everyone to look at. If you go to this link:

http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main

In the middle of the page there is a "Search For" option available to you. Click on the option for "All Documents (Open and Closed for Comment)". Use the search term "USCBP-2005-0003" in the "keyword or ID" box and do your search. You should get a list of public comments already made on the proposed rules change as well as the entire rule change itself, which is rather lengthy. If you are worried about your travel rights, then take a look at it and if you have concerns, then you can actually submit them to then for consideration before the rule is implemented.

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:05 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Razza, thanks. You're a gem.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:50 PM

RAZZA


Signym:

You are most welcome sir! Glad to help.

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 2:03 PM

CYBERSNARK


Are we all imprisoned w/in the USA?
Not all of us; I'm imprisoned in a small town in Canada.

Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
that big horney dude over there *cringes*


I've been watching too much Buffy.

I had to re-read that twice before I realized you (probably) weren't referring to a big guy with horns.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 2:24 PM

DREAMTROVE


I think I called this one a long time ago, USA is becoming USSR. Not being able to leave is the first and most essential part of that plan. But thanks for the heads up.

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Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:03 AM

PIRATECAT


Why would you want to leave? Besides tryin to get to the airport your stuck in gridlock and now truly have lost your freedom. And another thing say you get out ya have to swim back in shark invested waters. Oh bye the way the tide may take you to South Beach FL or worst SF Bay. Come On.

I like smackin em.

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Thursday, November 16, 2006 5:33 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:

I've been watching too much Buffy.

I had to re-read that twice before I realized you (probably) weren't referring to a big guy with horns.


ROTF!!!
I spelled 'horny' wrong...
Silly silly British man.

Andrewisall

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Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:26 AM

ERIC


This may have interesting implications. Whenever those militant redneck "real 'Mericans" tell you to just leave the country if you don't like how things are, point out that their Great Leader has made that impossible

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Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:33 AM

CHRISISALL


I come and go as I please; I have a sector pass.

Jam Pony Chrisisall

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Thursday, November 16, 2006 7:06 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I can see it now - if you want to leave the US you MUST be a disaffected person, therefore you cannot travel !

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Thursday, November 16, 2006 7:44 AM

SERGEANTX


This is no doubt welcome news for 'coyotes'. Now they can make profitable runs in both directions.

Seriously though, where the hell are the Democrats??? -- dutifully placing another brick in the wall is my guess.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, November 16, 2006 8:08 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:

Seriously though, where the hell are the Democrats???

Sarge, you have to have faith in them, they will save us completely from this maddness! They are at work right now trying to reduce the power that the government has....

wtf am I saying.....?....
We're screwed.

Hopefully just a little less now...Chrisisall

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Thursday, November 16, 2006 8:30 AM

TPAGE


Well... like I said in another thread...

Vive la revolution! (Come on, I just want one... think how much fun it would be!)

But remember, a revolution without dancing is no revolution at all!

You could put up pictures of Che Guvera (revolution poster boy)... you could... watch The Patriot with Mel Gibson... and uummm... just go revolute!



And if someday on some little piss-ant moon/My hand is a little too slow, or my aim a little bit off/At least I’ll go down fighting, not lying abed surrounded by quacks - "Sir Warrick" by Geezer

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Thursday, November 16, 2006 9:06 AM

ANTIMASON


i wish you guys would get on board with us in the 9/11 truth movement so we can attempt to expose(and oppose) the establishment powers and press, since theyre nothimg more than a criminal syndicate of bankers, corporate fascists and political mobsters; and the world needs to know that they were complicit in the massacres of that day and the ensuing authoritarian climate pf America politics. if we dont expose these institutions domestically (like the CIA for example) who promote state sponsored terror and information propoganda wars on citizens..then we will never get a grasp on the real enemy of our republic

becoming aware of the NWO is a revelation, literally; it reveals the conspiracy of Luciferians to create their new world order of the ages. theyre already enacting legistlation that says that people who dissent against the establishment mentality, like me.. or guys like Signmy or Dt or Righteous and the rest of you... will be considered enemies of the state and terrorists. this war on terror will be all consuming, and AMerica will not survive as a sovereign constitutional entity unless we recognize who has the motive to terrorize us

i took this quote from a link i was just reading but it says

Quote:

The White House's own recently de-classified strategy for "winning the war on terror" targets Internet conspiracy theories as a recruiting ground for terrorists and threatens to "diminish" their influence.

In addition, the Pentagon recently announced its effort to infiltrate the Internet and propagandize for the war on terror.

In a speech last month, Homeland Security director Michael Chertoff identified the web as a "terror training camp," through which "disaffected people living in the United States" are developing "radical ideologies and potentially violent skills."

Chertoff pledged to dispatch Homeland Security agents to local police departments in order to aid in the apprehension of domestic terrorists who use the Internet as a political tool. (written by Paul Watson)



thats thought crime.. thats not free

and that also just happens to be me, and the rest of you guys.. who mention any alternative explanation to what the government tells us. this is why 9.11 is the foundation for overthrowing the tyranny that has supressed the free nature of mankind of so long. its either now or never to stop them and their Satanic idealogies, because the evidence is their( its right on the money). following the next terror attack, 9/11 will become an afterthought.. and the public will get rallied behind another war on terror mind control campaign to scare Americans into a techno=monitored indentured servitude.

since the Federal Reserve is the root of this corruption here in AMerica, i dug up this video to watch if youve got some time its called America: from Freedom to Fascism
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198
(i gave you a link to the video so you can check it out) and keep in mind the Freemasonic(idolatrous)iconographic symbolism that was chosen.. it just makes sense to me




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Saturday, November 18, 2006 9:32 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The Administration, after losing the election in a landslide of epic proportions (if the votes had been properly counted) continue to chip away at civil liberties:

------------------------
Gonzales attacks ruling against domestic spying

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Attorney General Alberto Gonzales contended Saturday that some critics of the Bush administration's warrantless surveillance program were defining freedom in a way that presents a "grave threat" to U.S. security. Gonzales was the second administration official in two days to attack a federal judge's ruling last August that the program was unconstitutional. Gonzales... said that some see the program as on the verge of stifling freedom rather that protecting the country.

"But this view is shortsighted," he said. "Its definition of freedom -- one utterly divorced from civic responsibility -- is superficial and is itself a grave threat to the liberty and security of the American people."... Cheney, in an address Friday to the Federalist Society, said Taylor's order was troubling because it was "tying the hands of the president of the United States in the conduct of a war." He added: "And this is a matter entirely outside the competence of the judiciary." Gonzales and Cheney's attacks on the court order came as the administration was urging the lame-duck Congress to approve legislation authorizing the warrantless surveillance. The bill's chances are in doubt, however, because of Democratic opposition in the Senate, where 60 votes are required to end debate and vote.
-------------------


...this {warrantless wiretapping} is a matter entirely outside the competence of the judiciary

Yeah. The HELL with judical review, I say!

www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/18/gonzales.ap/index.html


---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Saturday, November 18, 2006 10:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BTW- I heard about a legal review of the Military Tribunals at Guantanamo yesterday. I'm trying to track down an on-line link. These are the tribunals that determine whether you are an "enemy combatant" - a ruling which WILL take away your rights of habeas corpus.

In my last posting on the topic much was made of the fact that Military Tribunals as authorized under the Military Commissions Act Oct 2006 are far from being arbitrary witch-hunts, but are organized proceedings with rules. Based on that idea, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for an American citizen to be picked up by mistake off the street and whisked into a Kafka-esque nightmare of endless near-torture in detention, with no access to lawyers, charges, or judicial review.

The review that I heard discussed the way the Military Tribunals have so far worked in Guantanamo. According to this review 100%! of the detainees could not call witnesses. 70% of them could not see the evidence against them. There were a whole bunch more statistics outlining the Star Chamber/ kangaroo court nature of these Tribunals. Based on that review, it seems to me that ANYONE'S civil rights could be violated, that you could disappear down a black hole thru mistaken identity, never to be heard from again, leaving your family to wonder where you were.

But while looking for this particular review I cam across another here, from Seton Hall lawyers- hardly a hotbed of crazy-eyed moonbat-ism...
law.shu.edu/news/guantanamo_report_final_2_08_06.pdf -



---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Saturday, November 18, 2006 10:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Another brick in the wall...

U.S. Seeks Silence on CIA Prisons
Court Is Asked to Bar Detainees From Talking About Interrogations


The Bush administration has told a federal judge that terrorism suspects held in secret CIA prisons should not be allowed to reveal details of the "alternative interrogation methods" that their captors used to get them to talk... even to the detainees' own attorneys

The government says in new court filings that those interrogation methods are now among the nation's most sensitive national security secrets and that their release ... "could reasonably be expected to cause extremely grave damage."

-------------------
It sure is embarassing when you get caught doing something illegal, isn't it?


---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Saturday, November 18, 2006 12:41 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I'm just bumping this depressing thread.

As to what do I want the democrats to do - make the crap unambiguously illegal under ANY pretext.

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Saturday, November 18, 2006 2:13 PM

PIRATECAT


Rue, their right first the war on drunk drivers then smokers who does it hurt the Waffle House. I am always on the losing side.

I like smacken em.

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Saturday, November 18, 2006 2:53 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Interesting that so many people give total credence to an anonymous article which provides only a non-working link as support.

Having used Razza's link to actually read the proposal, I can't see that it does much more than require passenger manifests prior to departure, rather than 15 minutes after.

I would also suspect that the government has had the legal authority to stop people, even citizens, from entering or leaving the country long before now.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, November 18, 2006 6:11 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Interesting that so many people give total credence to an anonymous article which provides only a non-working link as support.
Hey, I didn't see ppl give "total credence" to the post since (1) it was a question not an answer and (2) Razza actually looked it up.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Sunday, November 19, 2006 12:31 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Here's what happens to US citizens who forget their national passport in USA this week, electroshock, torture and attempted murder, for the crime of READING IN A PUBLIC LIBRARY:

=
www.irandokht.com
www.irandokht.com/forum/forumarticles.php?forumID=6§ionID=265

That's why schools are now banning cellphone cameras, so the slaves won't have evidence of Police State Death Squads. Note that copsters only get TASERED for 5 seconds, one time only, and can't walk for 30 seconds. But Death Squads usually perp repeated and continuous electroshock tortures that cause broken bones and 100s of deaths. What if... concerned citizens TAZED these copsters, and the college chancellor... Just a thought. Anybody can buy a TAZER...

Quote:


"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?"
-Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Nobel Prize winner, Gulag Archipelago (his latest book is 100% censored in the English language and in USA, for blaming genocidal Communism on the Khazarian "Jewish" Communists)
www.rense.com/general66/gulag.htm
www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=99868176



I was coaching a homeless guy on how to win in Traffic Court. We met at Univeristy of Tennessee Law Library, to discuss strategy and do legal research. University libraries are PUBLIC libraries, open to all US citizens and lawful aliens, because they are public depositories of government records, such as the current encyclopedias of statutes, codes and laws. The UT private security guards are NOT "law enforcement officers", since they are not govt employees, tho they like to pretend that they are. The UT "police" (security guards) illegally forced my student to leave the public library. I told him to go meet the dean of the law library. The dean told him he had a legal right to use the public library, so we had no further problem. He won his trial pro se, on 2 traffic tickets, setting legal precedent. Even tho the city judge found him liable for alleged breach of civil driver license contract, his Affidavit of Indigency and use of Homestead Exemption meant he did NOT have to pay the fines nor pay the court costs. Perhaps 60% of all US citizens never have to pay traffic tickets nor parking tickets, especially impoverished students, due to their Homestead Exemptions, which include million dollar homes in Florida.

Even tho you'll need your national passport to walk to the grocery store in your home town, you can always walk across the undefended border, 95% of which has no barrier of any kind.



Just carry your firearms for protection from the Mexican slave traders and drug runners who murder 100s of illegal aliens every year in USA.

Even the so-called "fence" can be climbed over, or under.


www.amazon.com/Minutemen-Battle-Secure-Americas-Borders/dp/0977898415


JUST SAY NO TO NATIONAL ID CARDS AND VOLUNTARY DRIVER LICENSE CONTRACTS. ALL YOU ARE REQUIRED TO DO IS VERBALLY TELL YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS TO THE NICE POLICE STATE DEATH SQUAD, ACCORDING TO US SUPREME COURT.
www.DealsGapDragon.com

AUDIO MP3 DOWNLOAD: Hidden Taperecording of Tennessee Copsters Torturing US Citizen to Sign a "Voluntary Consent" Contract Form
http://wms.scripps.com/knoxville/siler/siler.mp3
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/05/9797.php



"How can I get the Captain to shoot a cop in the face, and make it right? That extra moment of sadism - that's the thing that says it's okay, buddy, you're not up to spec, you're going down!"
-Joss the Boss, Firefly DVD, censored Episode 1 "Serenity"

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=8cd2bd0379340120e7a6ed00f2a53ee5
.1044556

www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv
www.piratenews.org


Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Sunday, November 19, 2006 4:13 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Hey, I didn't see ppl give "total credence" to the post...



Really?

Quote:

Originally posted by Gladiator32:
That's shocking news, but somehow, I can see all western countries going this way. Goverments love to use terrorism etc. as an excuse for oppression and control...



Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I like being a prisoner. Prisoners are safe.



Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I think I called this one a long time ago, USA is becoming USSR. Not being able to leave is the first and most essential part of that plan. But thanks for the heads up.



Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I can see it now - if you want to leave the US you MUST be a disaffected person, therefore you cannot travel !



Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
This is no doubt welcome news for 'coyotes'. Now they can make profitable runs in both directions.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, November 19, 2006 4:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Hmmm, well IMHO Chrisisall, Rue, and SargeX were joking and Glad32 and DT responded seriously.

You said you read the rule change and it does a lot fo things BESIDES set back the passenger manifest to 15-60 minutes before departure (and changes the definition of departure from "wheels up" to "push back" from the gate). I caught some things in the rule change but I'm interested in your take on it. What did you see?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:23 AM

KANEMAN


I'm in the Geezer camp. It seems to be a whole lotta nothing. More to do with manifests than being a prisoner(IMHO). This proposal actually makes sense...Won't effect me at all, but keep on huffing and puffing...

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Sunday, November 19, 2006 9:41 AM

ANTIMASON


the problem is Kaneman that if you and Geezer ever actually recognize the threat from our government, it will be too late.. since the whole time you were in lock step with the washington satanists who want war, want torture and want the last of your civil liberties to protect THEIR status quo.

id rather defend the weak than the strong anyday.. especially when the strong are making billions hand over fist committing genocide and subjugating the poor and middle classes

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Sunday, November 19, 2006 9:41 AM

ANTIMASON


woops.. dbl post

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Sunday, November 19, 2006 4:16 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Originally posted by rue:
I can see it now - if you want to leave the US you MUST be a disaffected person, therefore you cannot travel !"

HEY ! Did somebody take me seriously ?? !!
UUUhhhh, I guess I gotta work on my delivery ...

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Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:00 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Hmmm, well IMHO Chrisisall, Rue, and SargeX were joking



and so was John Kerry?

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Monday, November 20, 2006 4:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SO Geezer- what did you see in the new rule?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:34 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061121/ap_on_go_ot/passports_air_travel

WASHINGTON - Nearly all air travelers entering the U.S. will be required to show passports beginning Jan. 23, including returning Americans and people from Canada and other nations in the Western Hemisphere.

The date was disclosed Tuesday by Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff in an interview with The Associated Press. The Department of Homeland Security plans to announce the change on Wednesday.

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Tuesday, November 21, 2006 3:25 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Just wanted to bump this up: US citizens returning to the US by air will need to have passports to re-enter the country after January 23, 2007.

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Tuesday, November 21, 2006 3:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


'pparently Geezer didn't see anything in the new regulation worth writing about. What a tease!

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, November 21, 2006 3:28 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Sigh ... yeah ....

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Tuesday, November 21, 2006 5:49 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Sig,

Thanks for the heads up on this issue. After reading the proposed rule though, it doesn't sound as alarming as Hasbrouck made it sound. That is, it does not seem to be that much of a change from current policy. It isn't like we have to get exit visas, as in many other countries.

This is the part I found relevant:
Quote:

Accordingly, with this proposed
rule, CBP is proposing two transmission options for air carriers to
select from at their discretion: (i) the submission of complete
manifests no later than 60 minutes prior to departure or (ii)
transmitting passenger data as individual, real-time transactions,
i.e., as each passenger checks in, up to but no later than 15 minutes
prior to departure. Under both options, the carrier will not permit the
boarding of a passenger unless the passenger has been cleared by CBP.


http://www.hasbrouck.org/documents/USCBP-2005-0003-0003.pdf

All government regulations are disconcerting to me, and the trend towards greater and greater control of travel is gravely disturbing. But I don't think we are prisoners--yet. Just my take.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky
----------
An honest politician is one who, when he is bought, will stay bought.
--Simon Cameron (1799 - 1889)

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Tuesday, November 21, 2006 6:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


There are a couple parts to the regulation that are troubling, and the more the regulation progresses the more troubling they become.

WHile it makes sense to keep "terrorists" off planes and boats, the "no fly" list has some doozy errors in it. By placing the burden on the individual (keeping them from boarding) as opposed to placing the burden on the traveling public and carriers (turning the plane/ ship around) it makes it easier to use the occasionally scrambled "no fly" list much much more freely. That's my first take.


Interestingly, Homeland Security has just today isseud noticed that people returning from Canada or Mexico must now carry a passport. Wow. I visit friends in Canada at least every other year. Now I have to get a passport?



---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, November 21, 2006 6:41 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


CTS,

Thanks for the link. I copied some of the language from it to here and tracked down most of the references from the FR. Of note is the fact that changes to passenger rules were enacted 8 days after September 11, 2001, meaning they were already drafted. I'd read the USPatriot Act was all ready to go before 9/11, but this is the first time I've come across other legislation that was pre-drafted.

---------------------

Although initially voluntary, APIS participation grew, making it nearly an industry standard.

Requirements ... were established in accordance with several statutory mandates ...

Aviation and Transportation Security Act (passed by the 107th Congress on November 19, 2001)
Enhanced Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act of 2002
and certain Transportation Security Administration (TSA) laws and regulations (49 U.S.C. 114; 49 CFR 1544 revised 2005, 1546 revised 2005, 1550 revised 2005 http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_05/49cfrv9_05.html#1500).

A more detailed description of the histories of electronic manifest information requirements, and of these authorities, is set forth in a final rule published by CBP on April 7, 2005 at 70 FR 17820. (not available)

---------------------

So if you read the entire language, you'll find that these checks became mandatory less than 1 business week of 9/11, and the requirements have been continuously expanded since then.

This latest modification isn't some mere tweak to an ancient tradition, it's the latest ratchet by the Bush administration in its clampdown on freedom.

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Tuesday, November 21, 2006 6:42 PM

ANTIMASON


i think we've been imprisoned more by our mindset than anything. we had an opportunity to create an entirely new political paradigm founded on real liberty and prosperity for everyone, free of suppressive and taxing establishments. but that ended with the Federal Reserve, the IRS and their unconstitutional ILLEGAL income taxes and property seizures... and we let back in that poisonous influence that was purged and rejected by our founding fathers from the beginning. these criminal bankers like Morgan, Rothschild and Rockefeller hijacked our government and stole the real wealth of the world, the gold and silver, laid claim to it as collateral, and gave worthless, depreciated/inflated and satanic printed paper in its place. they indebted us to them before the money even reached our hands.. and then placed an illegal tax on our labor for good measure. it was designed to steal the wealth of the world and deposit in the hands of the rich; and we, the profane unwashed masses, have never been anything more than cattle

ask the IRS to point out the law that requires us to pay income taxes.. THEY DO NOT HAVE IT, PERIOD! so not only is the FED unconstituional, the 16th amendment forbids a tax on personal labor... the supreme court actually ruled that a personal income tax is unconstitutional since income is defined in the constitution as 'profit derived through corporate exchange', not a tax on the exchange of your labor! this can be proven.. it was designed to add insult to injury and KEEP US DOWN

the FED, the IRS and their front group the CFR constitute a 'shadow government', only it comprises the dark underbelly of America that the media just cant talk about, unless its some bad guy who "evaded taxes", so subsequently has the IRS enforcers with military gear break down his door and take everything he has. we're so conditioned.. they dont have the authority! its so blatanly criminal.. the 'heads' will never admit this but thats governemtns goal, thats the agenda- the banks want a global monetary system with a UN government enforced police state- and they will get it, be it through deception consent or murder. the IMF and worldbank extended their slimy tentacles into the developing third world countries, so their was never any hope for them- but this is AMerica, land of the(once)free, and our elected representative congress knows full well that the FED is a monstrousity and has perverted(along with the well established european central banks) the entire global monetary and economic systems- but congress does not stand up for us, they are impotant and useless.. and for all intents and purposes complicit

so i appeal to anyone who doesnt believe me, research for yourself, because no matter the threat from abroad, until we expose this truth here we will never have peace of mind, but instead constant terrorism

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Tuesday, November 21, 2006 6:56 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Of note is the fact that changes to passenger rules were enacted 8 days after September 11, 2001, meaning they were already drafted. I'd read the USPatriot Act was all ready to go before 9/11, but this is the first time I've come across other legislation that was pre-drafted.



not that you need to be told this.. but thats 'cause they knew 9.11 was gonna happen; it was orchestrated to turn AMerica on its head and to put a permanant orwellian backspin on our once cherished ideals. give up liberties to save freedom? well thats what theyre telling us.. and the airplain 'no fly rules' and public school terror drills is nothing but pure propoganda and social and mental conditioning- that way when they bring on the mandatory check points, RFID cards, and domestic concentration camps.. we'll know we we kneed to be good sheeple citizens and listen to big brother

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Tuesday, November 21, 2006 8:06 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Zombie Mark happy. Need control so not be hurting himself. Happy happy. Playing with diddle at compy. Ohhhhhhhh.... Desperate Houswives on. Eva so hot. Feel so secure. I love big Brother. Yay American Idol! Yay Kelly Clarkson! Yay Carrie Underwood! Now there's REAL talent!!! Yay! Who needs liberty? Slavery is happiness. Yay slavery! I have no to think. I American putty brain. Yay Survalence! BOoooooo privacy. Privacy makes terrorism people. Mark afraid of guns. Guns kill people. Yay Cops! Yay Authority! Boooo free thought! WAR IS PEACE!!!

Scuse me comrades..... Mark need to bury head back in sand. I hope Big Brother has my ass while I sleep.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, November 21, 2006 9:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA


BWAHAHAHAHA
*mopping coffee off the screen*

Yer either an anarchist or a lead-pipe libertarian Jack... either way, i'm likin it.

-Frem

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Wednesday, November 22, 2006 4:49 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
By placing the burden on the individual ... it makes it easier to use the occasionally scrambled "no fly" list much much more freely.

Good point.

I guess I am saying, as troubling as it is, it still doesn't approach the actual prisoner status much of the world has--which is having to get exit visas. The incremental trend towards exit visas is what disturbs me most, but that trend's been growing for 5 years now.

Quote:

Now I have to get a passport?
Having grown up in developing countries all over the world, I am used to this aspect of slavery ("traveling papers"). The passport is the first thing I reach for in a fire, and first thing I get my kids when they're born. Sad, isn't it? The US is just becoming more and more like other countries which are more concerned with control, and not at all with liberty.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky
----------
God made all men. They say Sam Colt made them equal.
-- Matthew Quigley, in Quigley Down Under

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Wednesday, November 22, 2006 4:59 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Of note is the fact that changes to passenger rules were enacted 8 days after September 11, 2001, meaning they were already drafted.

Good diggin', Rue! I had no idea. Thanks.
Quote:

...it's the latest ratchet by the Bush administration in its clampdown on freedom.

In my view, a Democratic administration would have done the same thing--more or less. Plenty of Dem's voted for all these laws, including the Patriot Act, that have been chipping away at our rights and freedoms. And this proposed rule would yet be voted on by Dems. Let's see if they pass it. When a Dem wins the next election (and they will), let's see if any of these lost freedoms are restored. As I said before, if the Dems actually bring our troops home from Iraq in the next two years (and don't send them anywhere else), despite their war-protesting rhetoric, I'd eat my hat.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky
----------
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
--Voltaire (1694 - 1778)

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Wednesday, November 22, 2006 1:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Rue- Good catch!

6ixpack- Dear god, but I'm beginning to catch your drift and agreeing w/ it.

Additional- It occurred to me that I was assuming that the no-fly list was a genuine security tool. However, once the costs (burden) of being singled out for "no-fly" falls on a single individual - as opposed to having to turn a plane or ship around- then the barrier to using the no-fly list as a harassment tool drops considerably because neither the carriers nor the other passengers would get behind a lawsuit.



---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 7:03 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I like to stir the pot.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, December 1, 2006 1:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Terror scores 'overdue for oversight'

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The incoming Senate Judiciary chairman pledged greater scrutiny Friday of computerized government anti-terrorism screening after learning that millions of Americans who travel internationally have been assigned risk assessments over the last four years without their knowledge.

"Data banks like this are overdue for oversight," said Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont, who will take over Judiciary in January. "That is going to change in the new Congress."

The Associated Press reported Thursday that millions of Americans and foreigners crossing U.S. borders in the past four years have been assessed by the computerized Automated Targeting System, or ATS, designed to help pick out terrorists or criminals.

The travelers are not allowed to see or directly challenge these risk assessments, which the government intends to keep on file for 40 years. Under specific circumstances, some or all data in the system can be shared with state, local and foreign governments and even some private contractors.

"It is simply incredible that the Bush administration is willing to share this sensitive information with foreign governments and even private employers, while refusing to allow U.S. citizens to see or challenge their own terror scores," Leahy said. This system "highlights the danger of government use of technology to conduct widespread surveillance of our daily lives without proper safeguards for privacy."

-------------------------
F*ck Bush.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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