REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

A question for those of you who support Israel....

POSTED BY: STDOUBT
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 29, 2024 05:21
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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 12:34 AM

STDOUBT


Is defending Israel worth a third world war, and
if so, why?

I am only interested in answers without any religious baggage. I don't care to wrestle with
"end-times" ~rapture~ fantasy-land bullsqueeze.
I'm talking real-world pragmatic reasons why it would benefit the USA to fully mobilize in a world-wide military effort to preserve the state of Israel.

Bonus question:
Why is anyone who criticizes Israel, its military or its actions labelled an anti-semite?

It won't take much thought to guess where I stand, but I'd really appreciate a cogent reason for the USA to continue to support Israel.

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 9:15 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:


Originally posted by STDOUBT:
Is defending Israel worth a third world war, and
if so, why?

I am only interested in answers without any religious baggage. I don't care to wrestle with
"end-times" ~rapture~ fantasy-land bullsqueeze.
I'm talking real-world pragmatic reasons why it would benefit the USA to fully mobilize in a world-wide military effort to preserve the state of Israel.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Quote:


Establishment of the State

Ben-Gurion pronounces the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel on May 14, 1948 in Tel Aviv.Main article: Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel
In 1947, following increasing levels of violence together with unsuccessful efforts to reconcile the Jewish and Arab populations, the British government decided to withdraw from the Palestine Mandate. The UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Partition Plan dividing the territory into two states, with the Jewish area consisting of roughly 55% of the land, and the Arab area roughly 45%. Jerusalem was planned to be an international region administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.

Immediately following the adoption of the Partition Plan by the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947, David Ben-Gurion tentatively accepted the partition, while the Arab League rejected it. Scattered attacks on civilians of both sides soon turned into widespread fighting between Arabs and Jews, this civil war being the first "phase" of the 1948 War of Independence.

The State of Israel was proclaimed on May 14, 1948, one day before the expiry of the Palestine Mandate.

Israel was admitted as a member of the United Nations on May 11, 1949.



Israel was 'made' by the UN. Should the UN and all member countries simply wash their hands of the affair? Or should 'they' try to help solve the problem which 'they' helped create?

Quote:


Bonus question:
Why is anyone who criticizes Israel, its military or its actions labelled an anti-semite?



Good question. What does present day Israel and their policies have to do with the Akkadians or the Phoenicians?
We should do away with that word as it is constantly being improperly used.

Quote:


It won't take much thought to guess where I stand, but I'd really appreciate a cogent reason for the USA to continue to support Israel.



Hopefully this counts as a cogent reason.

De-lurking to stir stuff up.

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 9:47 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


What makes you think that we're not in a 3rd (hot) world war already ? I agree w/ former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, that the Islamo-radicals are on the move to take over the entire middle east, and only a few of us have sense enough to realize it yet.

Bonus - Israel is defending itself. It withdrew from S.Lebanon 6 yrs ago, and still the border skirmishes continue. It was Israel who was attacked this time, it's soldiers attacked in their OWN land, and kidnapped. Hezbollah has ignored UN orders to disarm, and the Gov't of Lebanon does nothing.

Same w/ the Gaza strip. As soon as Israel backed out of there, the Pals simply used that newly gained territory to fire rockets deeper into Israel.

I'm not sure about the lable of being an 'anti semite',but those who don't undestand what is happening are showing themelves to be naive and uninformed, IMO.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 10:18 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by STDOUBT:
Is defending Israel worth a third world war, and
if so, why?

Was defending Poland worth the Second World War? If you say defending Israel is not worth it, then are you prepared for a second Holocaust?

That seems like a lame excuse, since there’s no clear evidence that World War III would result from defending Israel and many believe World War III began with 9/ll. In fact, I would say that it is more likely to result from not defending Israel. If all these heavily armed Iranian backed terrorist groups know that no one will come to Israel’s aid, then they will be far more likely to respond with much greater force, which in turn will force Israel to respond with much greater force, and often Israel has shown restraint out of respect for the US political defense of Israel. So if its war, you’re worried about. The only way to prevent it is to aggressively defend Israel. Something the UN has failed to do, and that is a large part of the reason for this current war.

And as far as anti-Semitism is concerned, I don’t use the term to refer to people who simply criticize Israel or its military. Anti-Semitism refers to a fundamental hatred of Jews, as was expressed by the Nazis and many terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. I have no doubt that a lot of the anti-Israeli sentiment expressed on this board by some of you and by many in Europe and the US is indeed anti-Semitism. I don’t think that it disappeared with the fall of the Nazis; I still think it’s quit strong, as it has been for 2000 years, but people are cautious to avoid comparisons with the Nazis, since it’s pretty much an end to their credibility. However, I like to be fair, and unless I can identify a fundamental hatred of Jews within the context of someone’s argument, I usually will simply stick to anti-Israeli, because I believe that one can disagree with Israel’s foreign policy and not want to see Jews murdered.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 11:55 AM

DUKKATI


In answer to the first question:
They have been nice to us so we should protect them.
Sorta like a brother who looks out for his sister.

They are an ally to freedom loving countries.
I think they are the only working Democracy happening in the middle east.

Lastly, I think the world has to many people who believe freedom is OWED to them. These people should be put in the front so we can get the most out of them... i.e. After they have tried to tell the enemy ,who doesn't give a crap about freedom, that "we really don't want to fight you we are peace loving humans that will do what ever you say until we feel you are no longer serving our interest then we will start talking bad about you over the Internet..unless you wont let us have the Internet then we will smile in your face and use snail mail..and if you wont let us have snail mail we will pout." When they are mowed down it will create a wall high enough to hide fighting personnel who will get the job done.

OK let me take a stab at the bonus question.

Because that's what some who does that is.

Any more Questions?
==============================================

I've been through the system.
It don't work.

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 12:05 PM

NVGHOSTRIDER


Any action to save life, of which the dead does not exceed the the lives saved is a victory, right?
Technically, yes. Poitically and religiosly, no.

Ultimately religion and polotics are the same creature.

Not to say that Israel is right. Their retalliation has always been at least two fold worse than the initial attack.

But if you had been bullied on the schoolyard, despite whatever consequences were given to the bully, wouldn't you wish for the same.

As for a concrete reason the US should continue its support for Israel, Money. It is beneficial for the US to utelize their contacts in Israel for any buisness dealings east of the Med. Though Economic growth is booming in Eastern Europe, their governments and markets are either too young or too corrupt to deal with. Try trading commodities with Gangsters and see where it gets you. At least the people in Eastern Europe can pay too much for the food they produce rather than starving under communist rule. Doing too much buisness without Israel as a middle man can not only start (or sustain a current) World War, it can ultimately destroy economies around the world. That leaves no hope of recovery for anyone.

Israel has forged its own double edged blade using fuel supplied by the US. Is it right to fight a war over money. Probably not. How 'bout religion. Mmm, no. But if you look at the underlying reasons, some of it is about survival of the region. Just wish there was no need for a war to sustain it.





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Thursday, August 10, 2006 7:15 PM

DREAMTROVE


No

I support Israel, Israel's right to Israel, not Israel's right to palestine and lebanon.

But I also recognize that Israel is qualitatively different from Poland. Israel is an immigrant population, entirely. Everyone is either first or second generation, I doubt there are many third. All would be called immigrant in the US. It's not a native population. I'm against them leaving if they don't have to, but to stop a third world war, I'd support a relocation to somewhere else. If the muslims could not bear the beachhead colony that is Israel, then Israel could be relocated to somewhere else holy, or even habitable. The Jewish religion, historically speaking, as a monotheistic cult, was born at Mount Sinai. The Hebrews came from Saudia Arabia, From there they came from Iraq, from their Kuwait, and from there, culturally either India or Srilanka. But you could really put them anywhere. I'd be happy to give them New Jersey Or even Long Island.

But if this were the deal that would be struck, I don't think it would be fair. Israel should be compensated, and the arabs would have to buy Israel back from them. The people displaced from a new israel could be compensated as well. But it's really not a homeland, it's a colony. White Zimbabweans are more native to Zimbabwe than Israelis are to Israel. Hell, the Chinese are more native to New York, or Kansas for that matter, than Israelis are to Israel. But it's their home, and if someone is going to emminant domain it, they have to pay for it. In dollars, not blood.

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Friday, August 11, 2006 2:53 AM

DUKKATI


I almost forgot my solution for over crowded prisons.
Along with all them that's think freedom is free put them "GANGSTAS" and the rest up front also then we shall see who's "BAAAD". They be to busy trying to keep their pants up to fight soooooo....

That should solve the over crowded prison issue.
_________________________________________________

Well ... I know my knower works and I don't need a college degree or spend thousands of dollars for some unhappy professor to tell me why he thinks we came from pond scum. I guess it just boils down to the freedom of choice given to us for free. You choose to believe or you don't.

What strikes me as funny is people who don't believe in God can be convinced He exists, thus they then know Satan exists, and BONUS knowledge is God is good and Satan is evil. Even a Satanist knows who Jesus and his Father are.
BUT>>>...You will never make a person who knows God ... truly believe God does not exist.

I've been through the system.
It don't work.

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Friday, August 11, 2006 3:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

No

I support Israel, Israel's right to Israel, not Israel's right to palestine and lebanon.




You really contradict yourself then. There is no Palestine, and Israel never has wanted a right to Lebanon. Only to eliminate the terrorist outfit that is Hezbollah.


People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, August 11, 2006 3:12 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by DukKati:
I almost forgot my solution for over crowded prisons.
Along with all them that's think freedom is free put them "GANGSTAS" and the rest up front also then we shall see who's "BAAAD". They be to busy trying to keep their pants up to fight soooooo....

That should solve the over crowded prison issue.
_________________________________________________

Well ... I know my knower works and I don't need a college degree or spend thousands of dollars for some unhappy professor to tell me why he thinks we came from pond scum. I guess it just boils down to the freedom of choice given to us for free. You choose to believe or you don't.

What strikes me as funny is people who don't believe in God can be convinced He exists, thus they then know Satan exists, and BONUS knowledge is God is good and Satan is evil. Even a Satanist knows who Jesus and his Father are.
BUT>>>...You will never make a person who knows God ... truly believe God does not exist.

I've been through the system.
It don't work.



Wow. Just--wow. I didn't know it was possible to pack that much confusing into one post (not to mention the thinly veiled racial stereotyping). Also, bonus points for your incredibly poor logic with that whole God-Satan-good-evil thing. Whoa.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.


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Friday, August 11, 2006 3:57 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by STDOUBT:
Is defending Israel worth a third world war, and
if so, why?


I think your simple little question has a very complex answer. This question has been asked since the end of World War II.

Is Isreal worth WW3? What about Taiwan, South Korea, or Western Europe? Afganistan, Czechoslavkia, Tibet, Vietnam...they were not worth it.

The answer is no. What is Jerusalem worth? Nothing. Everything. Where is the line and what awaits us on the other side?

I am a free man, a citizen of a free nation. We are a nation founded upon the principals of liberty for all and washed in the blood of millions who have died trying to make that liberty universal for all of our citizens and all the citizens of the world.

Lincoln wrote: "Let us have faith that right makes might, and that in faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."

So to answer your question, I think Ronald Reagan summed it up best on a brisk January morning in 1981:
Quote:


As for the enemies of freedom, those who are potential adversaries, they will be reminded that peace is the highest aspiration of the American people. We will negotiate for it, sacrifice for it; we will not surrender for it -- now or ever. Our forbearance should never be misunderstood. Our reluctance for conflict should not be misjudged as a failure of will. When action is required to preserve our national security, we will act. We will maintain sufficient strength to prevail if need be, knowing that if we do so, we have the best chance of never having to use that strength.



In the present conflict there has been the misjudgement of American character that Reagan warns our enemies against...its a misjudgement by those who plot against us and a misjudgement by persons, many our own people, who sell themselves and their nation short for the uncertain coin of political opportunism.

We must meet aggression with defense, terror with resolution, and tyranny with liberty. We fight for our friends because failing to do so does not make the world better or America safer. Defeating the enemies of America on ground of our choosing does accomplish those goals. Thats why its worth the fight you so greatly fear.

H

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Friday, August 11, 2006 4:09 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
tyranny with liberty

Are you saying that curbing individual freedoms and privacy to combat tyranny is wrong?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, August 11, 2006 4:52 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
[BAre you saying that curbing individual freedoms and privacy to combat tyranny is wrong?


We are a nation of laws.

Reason or reasonableness is a check on both the power of the state and the rights of the individual. Even the Constitution allows for the limitation of individual rights for a compelling governmental interest.

Edited to add: However this is a discussion of if and why and to what extent America must honor its commitments to its allies around the world. If you want to argue the nature of American liberty or the Hobbes vs. Locke issues, maybe we need a different thread.

H

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Friday, August 11, 2006 5:57 AM

KANEMAN


This would never escalate into a third world war. At least I hope not. I think America has to defend Israel at all costs. Let's just hope the price isn't very high. We helped create a lot of this mess and have to take responsibility. I'm just not sure there is a way for this region to resolve these disputes without bloodshed. As in Iraq these parties have consistently shown no desire to peacefully co-exist. Every now and then (as with unruly children that don't get along) the adults have to stand back and let the two have at it. Usually solves the problem. Winner takes all....Loser gets North Dakota(No Idaho Thread).



0

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Friday, August 11, 2006 6:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


It's too bad the UN didn't create Israel in the Poconos. Everyone would have been much happier.

So the UN effed up big time when it gave land that was already inhabited to a bunch of Jews that nobody wanted in Europe and especially not in Britain. And the Jews effed up when instead of sending over 400,000 they flooded the area with several million. Not that I blame them... If I'd just been massacred (with BTW the help of those poor victimized Poles) and whipped from pillar to post in Europe while nobody lifted a finger to help, I'd prolly want a place to call my own, too.

But it's insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over ... play whack-a-mole with Muslims... and expect different results. I'm not sure this war can be won ONLY militarily. The only kind of "peace" that you get at the end of THAT road is the peace of the graveyard.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, August 11, 2006 7:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BTW- It's possible to be against the State of Israel without being an "anti-Semite" (which technically refers to ALL people of Semitic origin) or even a "Jew hater". It's called being an "anti-Zionist".
Quote:

Zionism is... a political movement ... that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Another BTW- the reason why I brought up Poland's complicity in the Holocaust is to make the point that one can be both victim AND victimizer. Being a victim- as Israeli Jews and Palestinians both see themselves - does not absolve either party when they are victimizers.


Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, August 11, 2006 12:26 PM

DREAMTROVE


Auraptor

I don't accept the definition of Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. I think it's a political party. Anytime we can call a political party in another country a terrorist organization we are claiming a right to global domination. What's to stop us from defining Sinn Fein the same way? And then what? The LibDems? This is insane, and it has to stop yesterday.

Hamas and Hezbollah are people with whom I have some disagreements, but that's really not what's at issue here. If anyone else had issues with them, they could support opposition candidates. Anything above that is way out of line.

Palestine is a political entity recognized by the majority of govts, and almost the entirety of the people of Earth. Therefore, it does exist. It consists of the west bank and gaza.

Israel wants not only to own lebanon, but syria as well, and I suspect only two points of view are really going to openly disagree with that, the ignorant and the dishonest. I suspect that you not only know it to be true, but support the position.

The real name for this war should be the 29th crusade. It's a sobering thought that the first "mission of colonial exploration" to the ME started only 30 years after the last crusade ended. In fact, there has never been an interval of a human lifetime in which the west has not launched a crusade against the people of the middle east since. In fact, it would probably hold going back to the time of mohammed.

I thought it curious, in fact stikingly so, that the neocons of the forum had shed any pretense of being politically motivated be a desire to better the lives of muslims and had fallen back an lunatic jesus ravings. Yhwh, God of War, has shown his true face.

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Friday, August 11, 2006 12:40 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

This would never escalate into a third world war. At least I hope not. I think America has to defend Israel at all costs. Let's just hope the price isn't very high. We helped create a lot of this mess and have to take responsibility. I'm just not sure there is a way for this region to resolve these disputes without bloodshed. As in Iraq these parties have consistently shown no desire to peacefully co-exist. Every now and then (as with unruly children that don't get along) the adults have to stand back and let the two have at it. Usually solves the problem. Winner takes all....Loser gets North Dakota(No Idaho Thread).


What criteria do you for a third world war?
The war is already on.
Twenty five nations in the region are now at war on a chirsitan vs muslim level and the death toll is already over ten million, when you add all said conflicts together (To make this point, I would mention that east africa is definitely part of this conflict, the pro-western segments are funded and armed by the US and other western powers, the pro-islam factions are armed and trained by actual Alqaeda higherups, with Zawahiri and Bin Laden actually being present at times.) Even among arabs alone the total death toll is over 2 million since the gulf war. Add in Iraq-Iran as an auxillary part of the conflict and you can add another million. Add in the muslim-christian conflict in yugoslavia, where al quaeda and america were involved (concurrent with the iraq campaigns of the 90s) and you can add at least another million.

World War Three is raging at high flame, it's just not in your back yard. If you had sat out in Cedar Rapids Iowa in WWI and WWII it would look like a cool breeze. But I'll bet you over in Beirut and Tyre it's looking a lot like WWIII today. In fact, the theater of christian-muslim warfare is a land area four times the size of Europe, and with a population exceeding that of Europe, and with a total number of armed combatants who have exchanged fire in a military muslim-christian conflict in excess of 20 million.

So, in all seriousness, what exactly is it going to take for this meet the standards of a world war?

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Friday, August 11, 2006 1:28 PM

MISBEHAVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by DukKati:

I almost forgot my solution for over crowded prisons. . . put them "GANGSTAS" and the rest up front also then we shall see who's "BAAAD". They be to busy trying to keep their pants up to fight soooooo....



Wow, DukKati! Talk about showing your arse. Do you have any other racist, stereotypical bull you'd like to share?

Quote:

Originally posted by DukKati:

That should solve the over crowded prison issue.



Yeah, of course, because there's no other types of people in prison.

Quote:

Well ... I know my knower works . . .


I'm not so sure it does.


Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

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Friday, August 11, 2006 1:59 PM

MISBEHAVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by STDOUBT:

Is defending Israel worth a third world war, and
if so, why?



Well, Israel is an ally of the U.S., and that itself means we're to provide aid if needed. So, unless we sever our relationship with them, then I don't see how to avoid sending aid in all its varying forms. The problem I personally have with the U.S. and Israel relationship, is that the U.S. seems to have adopted the position that Israel is infallible with respect to how they address terrorism. The bombing campaign that's being carried out in Lebanon is killing a significantly high number of innocent civilians. Furthermore, it is in direct violation of parts of the Geneva convention: intentional targeting of civilians, fleeing refugees, infrastructure etc.. The Bush administration should have came out quickly and denounced these tactics, but they didn't. The result will be more moderate Muslims driven to embrace radical Islam in order to fight the U.S. and Israel. In effect, they're literally breeding more terrorists. To say nothing of the fact that Israel is no safer now than it was before its incursion into and bombing of Lebanon. The number of rockets being launched into Israel is not decreasing, it's increasing.



Quote:

Bonus question:
Why is anyone who criticizes Israel, its military or its actions labelled an anti-semite?



This is something I've never understood either. I've often been critical of Israel and I frequently get that "you're an anti-semite" (usually from Christians) stuff said to me when I do (this remains a great irony to me, as some of my best friends are Jewish and they too do not always agree with the Israeli approach). People need to recognize that Israel is not infallible. They're as capable as anyone of committing atrocities, exercising bad judgemnet, failures in diplomacy etc.. Just before the war in Lebanon broke out, Israelis dropped a couple of artillery rounds onto a beach in Gaza, during one of its busiest times of the year. I forget the number of civilians (men, women, and children) that were killed, but they were only people out to enjoy a day at the beach with their families. Israel did not receive a word of condemnation from the U.S. about this. Again, this imbalanced approach to the problems between Israel and others in the Middle East is only exacerbating the situation, not helping to resolve it.



Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.

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Friday, August 11, 2006 4:43 PM

DREAMTROVE


A few points for the israel-semite thing:

1. 85% of american jews do not support the aggressive zionist agenda.
2. the average jew is about 95% european by their genetic makeup, and only about 5% semitic according to genetics tests.
3. The arabs, against who the zionists wage war, are closer to 90+% semitic.

So there are many ways to look at the whole situation. Recently I read an analysis saying that there was a WWII-holocaust direct analogy (rather than the classic reverse one) in that, once again, the less semitic population was carrying out genocidal attacks against the more semitic one. The authors point was, even though the jews had been the victims in WWII and were the perpetrators in [WWIII] in each case, it was the less semitic group exterminating the more semitic group, which makes both actions anti-semitic, sort of by definition. So, if one follows that logic, (not to say I support the piece) then Israel itself is, or the zionists are, anti-semitic, which would make the opposite of anti-semitic being pro-semitic, or anti-anti-semitic, which would be consistant with being anti-zionist as long as zionist is in its current form, aggressively anti-arab.

I notice Jon Stewart, a longtime friend of Israel, has just added an arab commentator so he can make fun of Israel. It's a noble step. I can't say that he's anti-Israel yet, by which I mean anti-the israeli aggression, not anti-the state of israel and its people, but he has gotten to the point of balance.

Another curious thing...

Anti-semitic is never used to be anti-arab, inspite of their more semite-ness.

According to our society, anti-semite meaning anti-jewish, is a sin, yet some other anti-ethnics are not. We are always to expect that this is because of the holocaust, but I'm not sure it holds up.

Try all of these on for size, and see what kind of offendometer rating you get on each of them (how offensive would society consider each)

Anti-semitic, Anti-jew
Anti-arab
Anti-black
Anti-japanese
Anti-celt
Anti-slavic
Anti-tibetan
Anti-korean
Anti-hmong
anti-polish
anti-indian, anti-native american
anti-irish
anti-croatian
anti-serb
anti-witch
anti-vietnamese

Yet the above groups were all enslaved, and/or genocided during the history of our nation, sometime multiply. It's not holocaust denial or conspiracy theory but accept historical fact that more slavs were exterminated in genocidal pograms during the WWII era than jews, and yet anti-slav, a prevalent attitude even in our own society, does not generate a reaction. And President Waznorvininsky just doesn't sound like the sort of thing you're likely to ever hear.

It might be connected more to who runs our media. When you consider the internet revolution, and the number of russians in it, that may change and come back in 50 years and jewish jokes may be commonplace, but polish jokes may be a hate crime.

Just a thought.

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Saturday, August 12, 2006 3:01 AM

BLUEFLAME



In fact it's all to simple. Why do people vote for old men to lead them? If you put their minds under the microscope you would find there's very little rationality left. Old men are not among us to lead but to tell about the old days and encourage the youngsters to enjoy life and respect nature.
Putting them in charge is looking for trouble.
They are incapable of listening to reason cause they have their minds made up a long time ago. They are not practical at all.
It's always the same; old men start a war, millions of young people have to die for the great ideal. And that's just because most younsters do not yet have the intellectual baggage to see through the scam or are just to afraid to stand up and thwart the old man's scemes.
Why is everybody so afraid to let a young woman take the lead? In celtic tribes a woman's opinion was highly valued and mostly they were far more free then women in modern day western world. They fought furiously alongside their companions against their oppressors. But alas as always they were to much divided to counter the roman facist mass murderers macho freaks. Julius caesar did it just for power and standing. In those days rome was a stinking hellhole filled with decadent citizens. Unable to produce beauty these facists just stole from everywhere trampelling all different cultures along the way. It was them that spread the jews over the world and untill this day we are still suffering because of these right-wing monsters. A new roman empire began with the german nazi's, they also stole from all over the world destroying everything that refused to comply to their ideals. In the wake of the war the old men decided to 'give' a large portion of arab territory to the jews. However these jews were no longer the valiant warriors that stould up to the roman aggressor so many years ago. They now have become the conqueror backed up by a new facist empire: america. They simply do not belong there, only evil can come from it.
Amidst a culture that is completely strange to them (althought they share the same ancestors) their reaction is one of fear and violence. The israelians have destroyed all ancient olive trees and crops, confiscated most sources of water and bombed the palestinians into oblivian. Now they are attacking libanon because two of their soldiers got kidnapped. They now have become child murderers. A UN building got shelled even after ten warnings from the staff, three of them got killed.
'Old men never touched a drop of blood but they are drowning in it'. More then 2000 years they have been in charge now and indeed the result has been war and endless bloodshed untill this day. The problem with you americans is that you know nothing of the world just as the romans, you just huddle around a silly flag and kneel in fear to the throne of the wargod. 40% of you doesn't even believe in evolution. need i say more? But hey, the arabs are the bloodthirsty half-beasts aren't they? NO! When all your family is wiped out by an american-made bomb they have nothing to live for anymore except the only thing that is left: REVENGE! Just like that victim of the reavers who had to watch the madness, he had only one option left: to become a reaver.
One final question: why is it that a lot of democratic presidents get shot? And why was clinton spared?? Because now the nazi's are in total control of america and your democrates are cowards or monsters in disguise.

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Saturday, August 12, 2006 4:17 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Semitic is not an ethnicity. You cannot be genetically Semitic. And there is no such genetic analysis, DNA or otherwise, that identifies or could identify Arabs or anyone as being Semitic.

There are essentially two distinct definitions of Semitic. The technical definition is that of a language group spoken by various peoples, extinct and extant, the Phoenicians, Akkadians, Hebrews, Arabs, etc. So from a technical standpoint, it makes little sense to refer to anyone as being Semitic, since people are not languages. We sometimes imply, based on our identification of the language someone speaks, that they are Semitic, but for obvious reasons, that is a poor indicator of ethnicity, and is never used, except by anti-Semites, to imply that any such genetic ethnicity exists.

The other definition of Semitic is Jewish, particularly when one talks about anti-Semitism. This always means anti-Jewish. The reference to Jews as singularly Semitic is something that derived from anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, August 12, 2006 4:36 AM

DUKKATI


Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:
Quote:

Originally posted by DukKati:

I almost forgot my solution for over crowded prisons. . . put them "GANGSTAS" and the rest up front also then we shall see who's "BAAAD". They be to busy trying to keep their pants up to fight soooooo....



Wow, DukKati! Talk about showing your arse. Do you have any other racist, stereotypical bull you'd like to share?

Quote:

Originally posted by DukKati:

That should solve the over crowded prison issue.



Yeah, of course, because there's no other types of people in prison.

Quote:

Well ... I know my knower works . . .


I'm not so sure it does.



_______________________________________________
First; I thought we were past the racial issue that "Racecard" is far to played out and is becoming a sick reminder of how ignorant people wish to remain ignorant. I see it used by "Niggers"(If you wish to get offended here please feel free) not by "Black" people.

Second; "GANGSTAS" are of differing races not just one. One thing they have in common is how they wish to portray themselves.

Third; You posted... "Yeah, of course, because there's no other types of people in prison"...I am going to assume that you are NOT a racist, and this statement was a misprint because you obviously are so distraught at the thought of every "GANGSTA" being of one race. Please let me assure you they are not. They are of every race and color.(Refer to Second explanation)

Fourth; I like showing my arse. I have been told by the girls who like it that its sexy.

Fifth; I was a "GANGSTA". Now ,I am a man.

I've been through the system.
It dont work.

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Saturday, August 12, 2006 4:43 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
A few points for the israel-semite thing:

Thank you Dreamtrove.

There were some Jewish activists protesting new settlements in the West Bank a few years back. THEY got called "anti-semitic" by the orthodox Zionists. See, that goes to the ridiculousness of the label. They have usurped the power of the label and broadened it to include anti-Zionist. If you don't support Zionism, you must hate Jews.

I criticize Israeli leaders all the time. I called Ariel Sharon, Ariel Shitler. I detest Zionism. Does that make me anti-Israel, let alone anti-Jewish?

Does criticizing American leaders make you anti-American? Does calling Bush "Bushit" make you anti-American? Does detesting capitalism make you anti-American? Does any of these criticisms make you a racist?

No. The race card is pulled in to fight dirty in debates. It is used to invalidate arguments via discrediting the character of the opponent, rather than discrediting the merits of the argument itself. I have no respect for any debater who resorts to this tactic.

-------
"Maybe she's a lazy hooker. They can't all have hearts of gold and good work ethics." -- Jaye in Wonderfalls

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Saturday, August 12, 2006 5:12 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


as a reason to support Israel...

How 'bout-- what will happen to non-combatant Jews in TelAviv and Jerusalem if the Muslims win?

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Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:39 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
How 'bout-- what will happen to non-combatant Jews in TelAviv and Jerusalem if the Muslims win?

Hopefully not what happens to Muslim non-combatants right now.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, August 12, 2006 11:21 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
I criticize Israeli leaders all the time. I called Ariel Sharon, Ariel Shitler. I detest Zionism. Does that make me anti-Israel, let alone anti-Jewish?

Criticizing Ariel Sharon doesn’t make anyone anti-Semitic, or anti-Israeli.

Calling former PM Sharon “Ariel Shilter,” suggests that your disagreement with Israel or Sharon might be more a product of immaturity then true criticism, because people with serious educated arguments don’t use those kinds of derogatory tactics. By itself that’s not anti-Semitism either.

If you argue that former PM Sharon intentionally targeted civilians and you can demonstrate with a rational argument that is true, then you might have a legitimate criticism of Israel. That’s not anti-Semitism either.

But if you argue that Sharon intentionally targeted civilians because he is an Israeli, then that is anti-Semitism.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, August 12, 2006 12:35 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
because people with serious educated arguments don’t use those kinds of derogatory tactics.

I call him Ariel Shitler because his policies so offended me that I insult him for fun, not to make a point. Calling him names is not a tactic, it's entertainment.

I have never said anyone did anything just because they are Israeli. Whenever I criticize Israeli action, I qualify that I am speaking of the government and leadership of Israel. I qualify that my criticisms do not apply to all Israelis, and certainly not to all Jews. But that never matters to people who want to see anti-semitism in all anti-Israeli remarks (as in anti-Israeli govt, not anti-Israeli people).

Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal on the Get Real thread:
First of all, your assertion that Israel as a people holds a policy of targeting civilians to satiate their collective hatred seems to close to an ethnic slur for me to be comfortable with. It sounds too much like the “baby-killing Jew”

See, this is what mean. I never asserted any such thing. I never said Israel as a people. I never said that they had a policy of targeting civilians. In fact I made it a point to clarify that they didn't have a policy, and that I was speaking of LEADERS. But it doesn't matter. You want to read anti-semitism, you'll twist my words to find it. When this happens, the debate is over. There is no intellectual honesty in slinging accusations of racism as part of the debate. Because "people with serious educated arguments don’t use those kinds of derogatory tactics."

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Saturday, August 12, 2006 1:09 PM

EMPXENU


Quote:

Originally posted by DukKati:
Fifth; I was a "GANGSTA". Now ,I am a man.


The phrase "non sequitur" comes to mind.

----
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being" - Carl Jung

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Sunday, August 13, 2006 12:27 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Auraptor

I don't accept the definition of Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. I think it's a political party. Anytime we can call a political party in another country a terrorist organization we are claiming a right to global domination. What's to stop us from defining Sinn Fein the same way? And then what? The LibDems? This is insane, and it has to stop yesterday.

Then I'm claiming a right to global domination, by your reconing. Sorry, but political parties don't have their own standing army, independent of the country's actual army, and funded primarily by other Gov'ts.

Quote:

Hamas and Hezbollah are people with whom I have some disagreements, but that's really not what's at issue here. If anyone else had issues with them, they could support opposition candidates. Anything above that is way out of line.

Palestine is a political entity recognized by the majority of govts, and almost the entirety of the people of Earth. Therefore, it does exist. It consists of the west bank and gaza.

Israel wants not only to own lebanon, but syria as well, and I suspect only two points of view are really going to openly disagree with that, the ignorant and the dishonest. I suspect that you not only know it to be true, but support the position.

Where is your evidence that Israel wants to own Syria and Lebanon? If that IS the case, why did they retreat from Lebanon, and why did it take an overtly hostile act for Israel to strike back ? Why are they already talking cease fire , if their intent wasn't only to destroy Hezbollah?

Quote:

The real name for this war should be the 29th crusade. It's a sobering thought that the first "mission of colonial exploration" to the ME started only 30 years after the last crusade ended. In fact, there has never been an interval of a human lifetime in which the west has not launched a crusade against the people of the middle east since. In fact, it would probably hold going back to the time of mohammed.
Um.... now you're sounding down right silly here. The Jews lived in Isreael BEFORE Western history, certainly long before Mohammed.

Quote:

I thought it curious, in fact stikingly so, that the neocons of the forum had shed any pretense of being politically motivated be a desire to better the lives of muslims and had fallen back an lunatic jesus ravings. Yhwh, God of War, has shown his true face.
To quote Buffy.... " I think I speak for everyone here when I say 'Huh ?'. " You speak of doing right w/ the muslims and all, when its muslims themselves who have slaughtered far more of their own kind than anyone else.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, August 13, 2006 1:28 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Then I'm claiming a right to global domination, by your reconing. Sorry, but political parties don't have their own standing army, independent of the country's actual army, and funded primarily by other Gov'ts.

Sinn Fien does, paid for largely by American dollars no less.
Quote:

Um.... now you're sounding down right silly here. The Jews lived in Isreael BEFORE Western history, certainly long before Mohammed.
Native Americans lived in your back yard before the West had even discovered America.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, August 13, 2006 5:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Sinn Fien has 3000+ rockets and rocket launchers? Wow, I didn't know that. I stand correctd. But Sinn Fien is funded by Irish who live here in America, and should not be confused on any level as an "American" cause. The nation, simply put, has no dog in that fight. But just becausse you find another example of a renegade mlitia, it still doesn't make it right. Lebanon must carry some of the burden for what is happening, because they allowed Hezbollah to carry on unchecked, in free lance fashion.

Dinosaurs lived in my backyard too, so what's your point? America was colonized by every country from Europe, so there's hardly any room for you to try to lay any guilt on us today. England, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, EVERYONE who was sick of the old world risked the high seas to make it here.( Ok, the Africans , mabye not so much) But make no mistake....We ARE you, we are EVERYONE! In case you forgot.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, August 13, 2006 5:35 AM

CITIZEN


And who do you think you are to imply the lives taken by the IRA weren't important or as important as Israeli's killed by Hezbollah?

My point was that Sinn Fein is the political wing of the IRA, a party that the American Government recognises and feels perfectly fine about allowing American dollars from American citizens (nice way of trying to paint some American citizens as the 'Irish' BTW, I'd of thought in a multi-ethnic country like America you'd be able to get over those sorts of petty racial/nationalistic distinctions, apparently not) going to the political wing of a known terrorist organisation.

This rather goes against your supposition that political parties don't have standing militias, so you were wrong some do and ones recognised by the American government and funded by American citizens to boot, which is why I responded.
Quote:

Dinosaurs lived in my backyard too, so what's your point?
Well you just kind of made it for me, its somewhat puzzling that you need it spelled out.

One could argue that the Native Americans have more claim to your back yard given they were only 'thrown off' of it in the last two hundred years than the Israeli's do to Israel considering that they were 'thrown off' thousands of years ago from a historical perspective.

I guess if the Roman civilisation rears its head again some how we can send you to Italy to explain to the Italians that they have to STFU and put up because the Romans were here first. Or we can recognise that "The Jews lived in Israel BEFORE Western history, certainly long before Mohammed." actually really does mean bugger all.
Quote:

America was colonized by every country from Europe, so there's hardly any room for you to try to lay any guilt on us today. England, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, EVERYONE who was sick of the old world risked the high seas to make it here.( Ok, the Africans , mabye not so much) But make no mistake....We ARE you, we are EVERYONE! In case you forgot.
Funny, you'll use the multi-ethnicity of America as a non-sequitur to support a point that, well I'm not entirely sure you know what your point is to be honest, but in the very same post it's not Americans sending money to the IRA, Sinn Fein whoever, it's the Irish...

“We’ll take the Nigers and the Chinks, but we don’t want the Irish!”

And that particular bit of rhetoric works well for you doesn't it, when we do wrong it’s your fault, when you do wrong it's your fault, when we do right look how great we are...

No, we can still blame you for things, you've been making your own decisions for sometime now, you don't get to act like a spoiled child and blame all your faults/actions on your 'parents'.

Personal responsibility, I know you only like it when you get to blame other people for their actions, but I'm afraid it doesn't work like that.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, August 13, 2006 5:52 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The Jews lived in Isreael BEFORE Western history, certainly long before Mohammed.

Yeah, and then they vacated the premises for nearly 2000 years. For a damn long time, OTHER people lived there.

How would you feel if in around 3500 AD, Native American descendants came to the home of YOUR descendants and claimed ownership of that land and all improvements thereon.

Hell, Palestinians tricked or forced from their lands 30 years ago can't even get them back. After nearly 2000 years? I'm sorry, but they lost all entitlement to that land a long, long time ago. It rightfully belongs to the people who were living there for generations. Back in 1948, Britain and the UN were giving away land that was not theirs to give away.

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Sunday, August 13, 2006 9:57 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

The Jews lived in Isreael BEFORE Western history, certainly long before Mohammed.


Not so. Jews are native to the arabian desert and the sinai pennin., their ancestors come from iraq. The migration into israel, the conquestion of the philistines (palestine, as they called the land, and still do) was completed in the 5th century BC, shortly after the greek wars with persia, long after the trojan war. At the time the greeks were learning how to write from the phoenecians, the Hibiru nomads were wandering the desert fighting over which god to worship. Moses' cult of Yhwh, which dates back to the writing of exodus between 1200-1450 bc., which did not take hold over the people collectively for some thousand years. As the jews searched for a promised land, after the desertification of their nomadic territory and the conquest of sinai by egypt, the europeans were building cities, making govts. Egypt, which is generally considered part of western civ. had a full blown empire going, with not only writing and cities, but schools, armies and the first forays into modern medicine.

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Sunday, August 13, 2006 10:15 AM

DUKKATI


I am a responsible citizen now. I have found peace from a never ending source.

When this happen to me I gave up running around trying to be what the gang called a man.

I no longer steal to prove I'm a man .
I no longer wear my clothes as they do.
I gave up the things which a gang says you are to do to be a member and remain a member.

If my life's story would help I could give you the highlights, but this is not the time or place.

non-sequitur..ha!

LOGICAL...don't you think?

LOL
-----------------------



I've been through the system.
It dont work.

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Sunday, August 13, 2006 10:23 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The migration into israel, the conquestion of the philistines (palestine, as they called the land, and still do) was completed in the 5th century BC,

Not to quibble with ya, but I'd say that is way before western history. Of course, it appears my idea of western history (more western european history) is different from yours. I wouldn't call Egyptian empire part of western civilization.

Quote:

Moses' cult of Yhwh, which dates back to the writing of exodus between 1200-1450 bc., which did not take hold over the people collectively for some thousand years.
Huh? I am confused.

-------
"Maybe she's a lazy hooker. They can't all have hearts of gold and good work ethics." -- Jaye in Wonderfalls

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Sunday, August 13, 2006 12:26 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

citizen wrote:
Sunday, August 13, 2006 05:35
And who do you think you are to imply the lives taken by the IRA weren't important or as important as Israeli's killed by Hezbollah?



You brought up Sinn Fien, not I. By the way, have you stopped beating your wife yet ? Don't tell me what I think or don't think on the issue, and do NOT try to intermix 2 unrelated issues for the sake of trying to win your case. You can't do it. I'm not talking Ireland, but am talking about ISRAEL.....as was asked by the thread. Hell, you can't even get it right when I tell you straight out how I feel on an issue, what makes you think you can read into my words about 1 topic and figure out what I think on another issue?

Do yourself a favor and stick to one thing at a time. You don't make quite as big an ass of yourself that way.

Some Americans ARE of Irish ancestory. How else should I put it?

I am a Native American, you pin head.

Romans were from Italy, were they not ? What am I missing here. Why would I be sent to Italy to tell them to STFU ? I don't speak the language, for starters. Nor do I care.

Quote:


“We’ll take the Nigers and the Chinks, but we don’t want the Irish!”

Once again, you've show you have trouble when you try to make up what it is I think. You really must keep that impulse in check. What's this crap you have about me not linking the Irish? I happen to be part Irish. You've lost me.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, August 13, 2006 12:40 PM

DREAMTROVE


CTTS

I got my degree in west. civ., and we started way earlier. Stone henge is western civ. Homer is definitely western history, 8th c. bc, which is before 5th c. bc, conquest of palesting. Israel is not older than greek civ. Sure, jews existed before that, in sinai and arabia, but they didn't conquer palestine until later, and so there were jews, but there were europeans as well. We included egypt, as well as other extinct civs. such as minoa and carthage.

About Yhwh, cult of Yhwh was a fringe group within the hebrew (from hibiru, meaning nomad,) for hundreds of years. It wasn't until late in the biblical period that the cult of yhwh actually began to dominate the hebrews. Most of the history, the dominant deity was Elohim, or El, which later became a generic for god or deity. Later in the bible, 'el' appears, such as jesus' my [el] my [el] why hast thou forsaken me, but the represnts the word el, and no the deity El. The bible is a collection of the writings of the followers of yhwh, and so it includes no El worship. There have been some claims that moloch worship got transliterated as yhwh worship, or that yhwh and moloch were the same, but I doubt this.

Other biblical texts exist and can be found usually incomplete. I have found the sacred text of Baal to be an interesting read for example.

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Sunday, August 13, 2006 1:04 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
You brought up Sinn Fien, not I. By the way, have you stopped beating your wife yet ? Don't tell me what I think or don't think on the issue, and do NOT try to intermix 2 unrelated issues for the sake of trying to win your case.

I don't have a wife, why do you assume I do and that I beat her would be a more pertinent question?

Yes I bought up Sinn 'Fein' because Sinn Fein is a recognised political party with a militia group, something you said doesn't exist, I prove it does, you throw a hissy fit.

Furthermore what you said was deeply fucking insulting, my parents were nearly killed by an IRA bomb and you brush the IRA off because they don't have 3000 Katyusha Rockets. Well if that's your attitude, if you’re prepared to play favourites with Terrorist organisations to prove some point fuck you, because *IF* that is the case your opinion is meaningless.

One single point that I refuted with one single point, you are the one trying to expand it into a larger issue, why is that?
Quote:

I'm not talking Ireland, but am talking about ISRAEL.....as was asked by the thread.
Well isn't this YOUR standard operating procedure, if some evidence doesn't backup your position we should just remove it from the equation. My bringing up Ireland was specifically to disprove your supposition that no recognised political parties have a militia, which I've done, which I imagine is why you don't want Sinn Fein considered anymore.
Quote:

You don't make quite as big an ass of yourself that way.
Yes because its me making myself look like an ass
Quote:

Some Americans ARE of Irish ancestory. How else should I put it?
Well like that's a good start, except you didn't say that, you set Americans of Irish decent apart from the rest of the population by saying, and I quote: "Irish living in America". Not Irish Americans, not Americans of Irish decent, you qualified them as Irish who happen to be living in America, you set them apart from the rest of the population.
Quote:

I am a Native American, you pin head.
Because I'd be stupid for not knowing the ethnicity of some guy on an internet forum , not that this statement actually has any bearing on anything. This entire statement is just stupidity personified.

But then I believe you'd say anything in order to win a debate.
Quote:

Romans were from Italy, were they not ?
And Celts lived in England, the English aren't Celts and Italians aren't Romans. Not that I didn't see this coming a mile off.
Quote:

Why would I be sent to Italy to tell them to STFU ? I don't speak the language, for starters. Nor do I care.
It's really rather simple, again slightly depressing that you need it spelled out. You’re making overtones that people who are there first have more rights than people who are there later, so if Romans turned up I think given your obvious 'insights' you should be the one to explain to the Italians why Maximus Dessimus Derridius has more right to their Apartments than they do.
Quote:

Once again, you've show you have trouble when you try to make up what it is I think.
Well I do have trouble dropping down to your level yes, but at the end of the day you were the one that set Irish Americans apart from Americans.
Quote:

I happen to be part Irish.
As well as Native American, wow I happen to mention the Irish and Native Americans and I hit your ethnicity on the head. Quite a coincidence that.



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Sunday, August 13, 2006 1:39 PM

DREAMTROVE


Citizen,

Why doubt? I'd be not at all surprised that Auraptor was part Irish part Native American, it's not that unlikely a thing to be.

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Sunday, August 13, 2006 1:53 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Citizen,

Why doubt? I'd be not at all surprised that Auraptor was part Irish part Native American, it's not that unlikely a thing to be.

Because I honestly believe he'd say anything to win here, that and his ethnicity means zero and proves nothing.

He brings up that he's a Native American because I refute the idea that the Jewish have more claim to the land than the Palestinians because they were there first by trying to put it in a more personal context for him, the idea that maybe some Native American doesn't have more right to his house just because his tribe claimed the area two hundred years ago.

He bypasses the sentiment and says "but I am Native American!" Well so the hell what? That doesn't change the sentiment at all.

Likewise he openly sets those of Irish decent apart from other Americans then says "But I'm Irish!" So the hell what? Doesn't change the words he typed or their meaning one Iota.

I don't care what ethnicity he is, he seems to be the one who cares about such things.



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Sunday, August 13, 2006 3:05 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Likewise he openly sets those of Irish decent apart from other Americans then says "But I'm Irish!" So the hell what? Doesn't change the words he typed or their meaning one Iota.


Boy, I've seen some spin in my life , but you take the cake. All I did was accurately state that those Americans of Irish ancestory were the ones who YOU say funded the IRA. I stated a FACT.


You've gone on and on w/ a list of things which don't remotely accurately reflect what I said, so screw it. You win. I SHOULD have said that LEGITIMATE politcal parties don't haveve their own militias, but hey....what the fuck. Who cares, right ?
I give up. I can't talk sense to one who refuses to comprehend basic common sense.

Happy now ?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, August 13, 2006 7:26 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Boy, I've seen some spin in my life , but you take the cake. All I did was accurately state that those Americans of Irish ancestory were the ones who YOU say funded the IRA. I stated a FACT.

No this is spin. Whether they are of Irish 'ancestry' or not is irrelevant, like I said YOU are the one with a hard on for checking people genetic credentials. You said the Irish; you tried to distance them from the population of America, that’s not spin that’s right there in your post for all to see.
Quote:

You've gone on and on w/ a list of things which don't remotely accurately reflect what I said, so screw it.
This is a lie. You twisted the discussion around not me.
Quote:

I SHOULD have said that LEGITIMATE politcal parties don't haveve their own militias, but hey....what the fuck. Who cares, right ?
So basically what your saying is that after your little bullshit tantrum I am right, but you don't have the good grace to admit it, you have to turn my being right, and proving it into an insult.

Why did you press it, if you meant legitimate? No as usual you were proven wrong and you immediately went on lets turn the thread into a slanging match mode so you wouldn't have to admit it.
Quote:

I give up. I can't talk sense to one who refuses to comprehend basic common sense.
Nothing you believe makes sense common or otherwise. Even that sentence doesn't make sense.
Quote:

Happy now ?
I doubt talking to you will ever make anyone happy. Go away with what you comprehend as your victory.



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Sunday, August 13, 2006 10:50 PM

STDOUBT


Hey all,
I've just now returned to read the whole thread
(OK, I skipped most of the Sinn Fien stuff "Brits out!" yo).

I really did get some good perspective from the
thoughtful replies. Basically I'm unmoved in my
opinion though.
It's important to support our allies (I'm American), I agree there. But I don't think any country should be expected to support allies to
their own detriment. Nations should take care of
their own first. IMHO, continuing to pump
Israel full of tech/weaponry and going into massive debt to China in order to keep our military functioning over there, is going to result in the US going DOWN. By "down" I mean economic collapse and dictatorship. I also believe there are people in the US government that WANT that to happen (traitors who are (D) AND (R)).

I disagree with Zionism, but I don't want to see
civilians from *either* side harmed.
I wish it was as simple as just giving the Israelies Florida. But it wouldn't be Holy enough I suppose. Looks like neither side will give up. But it makes me sick to think my tax dollars go to Israeli weapons. Scratch that --American weapons used by Israel.
Do I think we should abandon Israel? Yes. Why?
Because it would take the life-blood of the US to *ultimately* and *finally* secure Israel. It would take genocide of many Arab peoples. Because the US abandoning Israel is inevitable anyway... (So say some Christian Fundies I've spoken with)

Anyhoo --pray for peace y'all (can't hurt)
EDIT: and thanks for the replies

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Monday, August 14, 2006 12:03 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Whether they are of Irish 'ancestry' or not is irrelevant, like I said YOU are the one with a hard on for checking people genetic credentials. You said the Irish; you tried to distance them from the population of America, that’s not spin that’s right there in your post for all to see.



First of all, it is COMPLETELY relevent as to who was funding the IRA, you pin head. That's the only reason I brought that part up. You're the one making racist remarks about checking for GENETIC credentials. I never once intimated that in the least. The eugenics game is squarely on YOUR head, pal.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, August 14, 2006 12:38 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
First of all, it is COMPLETELY relevent as to who was funding the IRA, you pin head. That's the only reason I brought that part up. You're the one making racist remarks about checking for GENETIC credentials. I never once intimated that in the least. The eugenics game is squarely on YOUR head, pal.

Spin spin spin, are you feeling dizzy yet? You seem to think ethnicity is important, I point that out and all of a sudden I'M the one asking for genetic credentials, that's just too funny.

You're the one who set Irish Americans apart from Americans, saying they are just Irish, not I. You're the one that thinks your ethnicity matters at all you simple minded little ape man. Blather all you want.

I love how the vast swath of a post completely disproves what you say and so you have to attack the tiniest most inconsequential part of it in the hope that no one will notice you lost the debate already. Don't worry AU no one here is as stupid as you so your tactics really haven't worked.

You are a bigot; you are just so bigoted you can’t see it. The eugenics thing is squarely on YOUR head, pal.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Monday, August 14, 2006 8:05 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

You are a bigot; you are just so bigoted you can’t see it. The eugenics thing is squarely on YOUR head, pal.



You are either a) A troll, and simply enjoy playing the role of the contrarian. If that's the case, you're lower than snail slime.... OR... b) You're so delusional from yrs of P.C., cult like think that you've lost all your higher cognitive abilities.

If 'a' is true, then I'm wasting my time arguing w/ you,..( never argue w/ a fool, least others are unable to tell the difference ) ....but if 'b' is true, I have been beating up on a mental midget. Mamma taught me better than to pick on those who have 'special' needs. If this is the case, I do apologize.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, August 14, 2006 8:18 AM

CITIZEN


AU, I am not a troll, and I'd put money on my IQ being higher than yours, that's why I don't need George Bush to give me my opinion.

I realise not judging people based on ethnicity religion or skin colour is PC crap to you, we've been through this before, you don't need to keep on about it.

If anyone acts like a Troll here it is you, and the difference between you accusing me of acting like a Troll and me accusing you of acting like a Troll is other people will agree with me.

So since 'a' and 'b' has been decidedly proved false by the facts, really it's either mystery options:
c) You are a Troll
or
d) You are a delusional retard.

Just give it up; you've lost the debate already.



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