REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

I'm ready to start pointing fingers

POSTED BY: EMBERS
UPDATED: Monday, September 5, 2005 08:45
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VIEWED: 5171
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Sunday, September 4, 2005 11:10 PM

MACBAKER


Quote:

Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Quote:

Sorry but your attempt to dodge that by saying "I'm going to lay down the law right now - Clinton isn't President, and the Dems do not control all 3 branches of govt.", is weak!


Weak? Weak is your retreat back to this bullshit that conservatives go back to every time. All you cons did during his entire Presidency was bash Clinton, yet every time you get backed into a corner you pull out the "he did it too" defense. Screw that. He's not President. Where does the buck stop with you people? This hasn't been Clinton's Presidency for 6 years. The Dems havent controlled congress since, what, 1994?

Yeah. They cut an increase in funding to build up the levees, not 'the funding.' Because if they couldn't do it with the money they had, and needed an increase, they were just magically going to be able to with a fraction of what they needed. What you are saying is if I have $5, but need $10 to do a job, and you say, well, I gave you $1 instead of $5, so you have $6 but hey, I didnt take the funding away totally, so don't blame me, then that's BS.
Then when the job doesn't get finished? It's the person's fault who wasn't even in charge anymore. Priceless.

Take the talking points somewhere else, they don't hold up to scrutiny.

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.



Bull! First you make the common mistake that anyone that doesn't agree with your particualr political agenada must be from the other side! I'm not a Con. Personally, I don't like Bush anymore than Clinton, but I do take issue with blaming the federal government with this disaster! Natural disasters are the responsibility of the states affected. Yes, FEMA is to provide support, but the state government has to request it. The Govenor of LA didn't request this help until sunday, hours before the hurricane hit. Given the massive size (again covering more square miles than England), that clearly wasn't nearly enough notice! Though I admit that I doubt any notice would have been enough, simply because of the sheer volume of destruction, and the lack of access into N.O. due to flooding!

Second, I stated myself that the levee funding obviously wasn't enough, but somehow you feel that years of ignoring the problem by both parties isn't the issue, only that the current administation didn't do anything. No where in my post did I say that giving them a 1 for every 10 they requested absolved them of anything! What I was pointing out, was that every admisitration since Carter failed to respond to this issue, and they are all responseable. Typically, for a LIB, you don't want your party of choice blamed, only the party you disagree with. (see how I assumed your party affiliation just like you did me?)

The buck stops with both parties. Neither did what was needed!

The current administration isn't to blame for the aftermath of this disaster. Once they got on scene, they did an amazing job!
The Airlift rescue program on friday and saturday was quite simply amazing. Texas should also be praised for their support of the refugees during all of this, and now other states are stepping up to take any of the overflow that Texas can't handle. We as a country are coming together and doing great deeds.

The federal government is responsible for the levee issue, but all branches and parties going back 20 years should be comdemed for not taking enough action. In retort to this though, the real question is what action to be taken. Many experts claim that these levees built to protect New Orleans, are causing a serious environmental problem on the Louisiana coastline. Because of these very same levees, silt from the Mississippi is no longer being fed through a vast series of bayous and mashlands, and that the coastline is eroding at an estimated 75 square miles a year because of it. Eventually, New Orleans would become a man made island, surrounded by water and protected by a series of levees that would have to be even taller than current Amry Corps plan! In other words, the program would constantly and forever need billions of dollars of federal funding to maintain and improve. There is no perment fix! This is one of the reasons why funding is so hard to get! No one can agree on how to deal with the problem of a city built below sea level that is essentually becoming an island. Take down the levees to protect the coastline eroson, and New Orleans stays flooded. Build them up further, and the coastline around the city continue to erode and becomes an island. There are no easy answers. The best suggestion I heard was from a senator who said the city shouldn't be protected from the water, because that is clearly impossible, but it should be adapted to exist with the water, something like Venice. A series of canals in the city wouldn't stop the flooding, but it would give the water somewhere to go after a storm had hit. Maybe that's the answer, and hopefully these will be some of the issues looked at by local and federal officials, as they try to figure out how best to rebuild this city.

BTW, I voted for Clinton the first time, voted Ind during his re-election, and voted for Bush during his first run at office, but not for the last election. I'm registered in my state as an Independent voter, and my political view tend to be very moderate. Not that my voting record is any of your business.

I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 4:32 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Now, here's a few facts that clearly point where the blame really belongs!
Mac- If you had read one of my earlier posts, you would know that I was the FIRST to bring up the evacuation problem. What I said was
Quote:

Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 09:02 BTW- I'm not sparing the local government from criticism either. I know that you want to save evacuation to the last possible minute, but I thought it was delayed about a half-day too long. And when I saw those long lines of idling cars on the outbound freeways and three lanes empty in the other direction I thought... Geee, can't they just re-route traffic and designate 5/6 lanes "outbound"? Or do they have magic one-way concrete that runs in the wrong direction?

Here's another thought that came to me during the evacuation: Why not commandeer city buses and school buses to get people out of harm's way? Maybe involve the National Guard or the military to do a house to house? I mean, evacuation is tough but rescue is much tougher are far less successful. And some people didn't want to leave because they didn't have any place to go. So how about setting up tent cities, or even opening up out-of-harm's way bases, or even commandeering some hotels?

So- you clearly don't understand my viewpoint.

BTW- it turns out that they DID reroute traffic in what they call a "counterflow" pattern. But several hours before landfall they removed the barrels and cones so as not to become flying missiles.

But the fact that the Mayor and Governor didn't do everything that I thought they should doesn't absolve the Federal government from blame. The Mayor and the Governor requested Federal help BEFORE landfall. The Federal government didn't respond until three days after. In situations where the disaster is beyond the local authority's capacity- and this is clearly one of them since Mississippi and Louisiana are two of the poorest states in the nation- the response AND THE BLAME belongs to the Federal government for what it failed to do.

In another thread, Rue kindly posted a number of links on the Federal government's historic response to hurricanes to give us a yardstick for what is expected.

In 1996, Category 3 Hurricane Fran made landfall at Cape Fear approx 20:30 EST Sept 5. By
Quote:

Sept 6, On Friday, 06-SEP-96 at 0230H, we arrived at the Richmond VAMC, where we were given beds on Ward 5C. After four hours sleep, we were instructed by the MMSU to continue to Fayetteville, NC, which we arrived at in the afternoon at 1615H. This was about 15 minutes after the NC-1 DMAT arrived, which had been activated at the same time that we had been activated...
During the time that we traveled the 360 miles to successfully pre-deploy, we encountered tropical storm force winds, torrential rains, tornado watches, trees and branches laying across Interstate 95, and sleeplessness.



Huuricane Goerges, made landfall near Biloxi on Sept 28.
Quote:

Three coastal Mississippi counties--Hancock, Harrison and Jackson--were the hardest hit, with more than 87 people being housed in shelters and nearly 1,000 U.S. National Guard troops called in to aid in the recovery effort after the area received federal disaster assistance beginning September 28.
I refer you to the other post for more info.

In fact, Bush didn't even tour the area by helicopter until Sept 2. Emergency medical personnel (DMAT) weren't mobilized until three days AFTER landfall. Look at the dates of these articles in the Pentagon paper, and remember that the local government requested help on the 28th: www.pentagon.mil/home/features/2005/katrina/index_new.html

Several articles have pointed out the severe disconnect from reality exhibited by DHLS head Chertoff and FEMA head Michael Brown, who were both busy spouting happy news 24/7 which was completely untrue. In fact, serious allegations have been made about FEMA by Broussard (Jefferson Parish President) which if true would warrant severe punishment of those involved:
Quote:

Walmart delivered 3 trucks of water, FEMA turned them back, said we didn't need them.
...We had 1000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel, the Coast Guard said "come and get the fuel." When we got there with our trucks, they got a word, 'FEMA said don't give you the fuel.'"
...FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communications lines [without notice]. The Sherriff ... came back in and re-connected them, and posted armed guards on the lines.

www.dummocrats.com/archives/001095.php

It's not over for hundreds, if not thousands of people who are still stranded. People are still dying. www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/coastguard.rescue/index.html Those people that didn't drown in their attics or die of chronic illness (kidney failure, heart failure, diabetes, emphysema etc.) will by now be dying of lack of food and clean water unless they are rescued immediately. That three-day lag is significant and for the people who are dying right now, "almost" isn't good enough

Please don't think they give a shit.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 5:26 AM

GHOULMAN


Good on you Embers. :)

Bush is to blame.

The Bush White House and pals are lieing through thier teeth about New Orleans. Bush said no one could have foreseen the flooding. Not true. Homeland Security Chief Chertkov said the same thing. Not true. FEMA Director Mike Brown is brain damaged. Oh, that's true.

It works like this kids...

Bush created the Dept. of Homeland Security. It's mandate is to make sure nothing like 9/11 ever happens again. The top three disasters, experts advised, are a WMD terror attack, an earthquake in California, and the levees breaking in New Orleans. TOP THREE!

The Dept. of Homeland Security is in charge of disasters. FEMA was hobbled when the Bush White House folded FEMA into Homeland Security. Even the staff was cut drastically and hey, Mike Brown is an old pal of George W. and, even though he was fired from his last job for incompetence, Bush still flew in to congradulate "Brownie" on a job well done... as bodies floated past... literally. On Thursday. The storm hit NO Sunday.

Now the Bush people are blaming the "local and State" officials for not acting. But look, they might be guilty of some things but there's only so much locals and state can do. Besides, the State has far less money and National Guard equipment and troops, who are in Iraq.

Remember - most of the people in New Orleans didn't die because of mistakes or the hurricane or even the flooding, THEY DIED BECAUSE THIER GOVERNMENT LEFT THEM TO ROT FOR A WEEK. A F%#ING WEEK!

You Bush supporters are about to get your arses handed to you.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 5:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I'm going to take a guess as to what happened:
Mayor Nagin was a record-company executive before becoming Mayor- he prolly didn't have enough experience to cope with a natural disaster of that size.
Governor Blanco did everyhting I think she could have done: She used the State Patrol to re-route traffic, requested Federal Assistance, and activated the Louisiana National Guard.

Bush declared a disaster on the 27th which
Quote:

authorizes the FEMA to coordinate ALL disaster relief efforts and to provide appropriate assistance in a number of Louisiana parishes, or counties.
This makes sense of what Broussard (President, Jefferson parish) was saying- that FEMA kept saying they were coming, which actually delayed local authorities from taking on-the-spot action. Bush, meanwhile, thought that disaster management activities were automatic and didn't need specific orders to deploy troops and bring in the National Guard from other states. Chertoff (DHLS) and Brown (FEMA) have NO emergency managment experience whatsoever and manage to muck up pretty much everything.

What I don't understand is- FEMA and DHLS ahd contracted just the year before with IEM to do a tabletop disaster response plan pretty much exactly like what happened (80% of NO under 15-20 feet of water after a Category 3 hurricane). Those "tabletops" define who does what. Didn't they know what they had in their own playbook???

Meanwhile, Bush contines his meet-and-greet schedule, totally unaware for three or four days that rescue and relief operations are stalled and that some activities require his involvement (as Commander in Chief, for example). Alternatively, he knows whats going on- or what's NOT going on- and is reluctant to bring in the Federal government because he believes it should be handled by contracted private industry (ie Halliburton, Bechtel etc). In either case, he is 100% disengaged from the effort.



Please don't think they give a shit.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 6:07 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Another FEMA fuckup:
Quote:

The American Red Cross says the reason it wasn't there in New Orleans helping people survive was because the Homeland Security Department had actually asked it not to come back into the city after the hurricane.
www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2005/s1453682.htm

A Federal misstep: Request for help from Louisiana's Governor Blanco to New Mexico's Richardson for National Guard help was delayed IN WASHINGTON from the day before landfall until three days after. In that same article:
Quote:

the federal government could have activated, but did not, a major air support plan under a pre-existing contract with airlines. The program, called Civilian Reserve Air Fleet, lets the government quickly put private cargo and passenger planes into service.
www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5252845,00.html

People are still dying. But...


Please don't think they give a shit.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 8:19 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


MacBaker,

Not only are you an ass, you're an ignorant ass as well. If you're going to discuss global warming you really, and I mean really need to keep up with the science.

You missed the study that looked at total energy reaching the earth's surface and total energy being re-radiated to space, that found that indeed the earth was in positive heat balance, and THEN went on and predicted the energy imbalance with actual surface temperature warming.

You missed the study that combined ocean, land and atmospheric modeling to make highly accurate predictions.

And apparently you missed these studies that kick the last leg out from under your notions:

http://www.livescience.com/environment/050811_global_warming.html
Key Argument for Global Warming Critics Evaporates

Sherwood examined weather balloons known as radiosondes, which are capable of making direct measurements of atmospheric temperatures. ... (T)he older radiosonde instruments were not as well shielded from sunlight as more recent models. What this means is that older radiosondes showed warmer temperature readings during the day because they were warmed by sunlight. Nowadays, radiosondes are better insulated against the effects of sunlight, but if analyzed together with the old data — which showed temperatures that were actually warmer than they really were — the overall effect looked like the troposphere was cooling.

According to Santer, the only group to previously analyze satellite data on the troposphere -- the lowest layer in Earth's atmosphere -- was a research team headed by Roy Spencer from University of Alabama in 1992. But in (a) Science paper published today, Carl Mears and Rank Wentz, scientists at the California-based Remote Sensing Systems, examined the same data and identified an error in Spencer's analysis technique. After correcting for the mistake, the researchers obtained fundamentally different results: whereas Spencer's analysis showed a cooling of the Earth's troposphere, the new analysis revealed a warming. (because) http://www.lambincommand.com/drbortrum.asp (when) Mears and Wentz
examined their data they found that the satellites were in effect
reporting nighttime temperatures as daytime temperatures!

So, let's hear it now. The excuses, the rationalizations, the decoy arguments ...



Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, September 5, 2005 8:45 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


When I read what you all wrote re Bush and FEMA, it pisses me off. I have no measure for the rage - RAGE - I feel toward those callous, glib, primping murderers - ever so camera ready for more spin - who lie, and lie, and lie. And they have the unmitigated GALL to then put the responsibility to fix it up on the state, the city and everyday Americans - the victims - who are supposed to reach into THEIR pockets and do the things THEIR tax money was already collected for. Because THAT money is long gone.

So let's all be good patriotic Americans, shall we? Open up your wallet, your home, your veins, and bleed some more for the sake of your fellow man. But whatever you do, don't you dare look to those who sail by whose miens shall never be looked upon. Who are perfect and unaccountable and protected. And just plain more valuable than us all.



Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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