REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

No, THIS is what going crazy must feel like.

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 30, 2024 12:04
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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:24 PM

ANTIMASON


Iraq was never a threat.. i wish the establishment parrots on both sides of the isle would admit that, so we can face up to the fact that the only war being fought is the post invasion conflict, because we invaded the place and people are fighting about it.

if i put this into perspective, its possible that a decade from now, UN troops could come into AMerica, to quell public unrest(dissent) or something, and with the support of a collaboration of nations, step onto our shores, middle america, and impose their beliefs and their law onto us

thats a very real threat, believe it or not, and ill never ever sumbit to some foreign authority. considering how religious the middle east is, i wouldnt take kindly either to a communist, secular humanist entity like the UN(and its luciferian NWO agenda) making decisions affecting my country- when theyre really just out to steal the people of the worlds national and personal sovereignty

its a similar case with our conflict, so i dont expect any less from the Iraqis, because even i see the war as a front for the globalists to bring the M.E. under the reigns of the NWO. i want the best for them, and if this were a legitimate campaign for world freedom, id actually be behind it.. but its not, its about planetary sumbission. i am loyal to my country, but even i see that it has been corrupted from the monetary system outwards, and is but a silhouette of her former self. until we restore AMerica from the inside out, it would be hypocritical of us to impose our system on others

and the war on terror, if al-qaeda were an actual, manifesting organization, would have been pursued like any criminal syndicate, to fullest extent of the law. but they dont exist, because terrorism is just a loaded political phrase, intended to classify any dissent against the state, and meant to be so vague as to eventually encompass all national citizens and criminal behavior. the trick to see passed the Orwellian doublespeak is easy: just substitute the "war on 'terror'" with 'freedom'.. then youll see where the progress is really being made

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:34 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You'll note that NO WHERE in there does it mention 9/11, but several times the U.N.and Iraq are mentioned. Oh well, nice try.
But it does. Let me underline it for you in context so you can see it....
Quote:

b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION.

In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon there after as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq, and

(2) acting pursuant to this resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorists attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.








---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:35 PM

SEVENPERCENT


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

(2) acting pursuant to this resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorists attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.


Then:
Quote:

You'll note that NO WHERE in there does it mention 9/11, but several times the U.N.and Iraq are mentioned. Oh well, nice try.


Looks like it mentions it right there in Section 3, subsection B.2. Under Presidential Determination, which is the justification section. Using the 9/11 attacks as his reasoning. I guess it really was a nice try.




------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:39 PM

SEVENPERCENT


Hey! SignyM! No beating me to my posts! You just had to hit submit 30 seconds before me, didn't you?

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 1:01 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
The Resolution on Iraq said :" Whereas Congress has taken steps to pursue vigorously the war on terrorism ... requested by the President to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations." Since this is part of the resolution on Iraq it seems to me that including 9-11 in this statement implies that Iraq was part of the 9-11 attack.

What it implies is that Iraq is part of the war on terror, along with 9/ll, not that there is any belief that any such direct connection existed between the two.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 1:12 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Rap,

I have to ask. Who are you channeling?

In the other thread you didn't believe that Rats had committed a 3million ballot voter fraud, or spied on and kept records of 10% of US phone calls. Those were big BIG stories when they came out. How did you miss them? You've maintained the US economy and peons are doing great (that's all but a few hundred of us); that global warming isn't happening; that Iraq is going super ... And in this thread you quoted, at length, documentation you didn't seem to read but which someone apparently told you was 'the answer' to the question.

Not to be insulting or anything, but how can you possibly be sincere about the unmitigated load you keep dumping?

Are you not sincere and just jerking everyone around, or are you sincere but completely misguided? And how did you get to be that way?

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 1:51 PM

RAZZA


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
The Resolution on Iraq said :" Whereas Congress has taken steps to pursue vigorously the war on terrorism ... requested by the President to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations." Since this is part of the resolution on Iraq it seems to me that including 9-11 in this statement implies that Iraq was part of the 9-11 attack.



Perhaps you should ask the Senators and Congressmen who drafted and voted for this resolution these questions. As Auraptor tried to point out, this was a congressional resolution, not a white house policy statement. Since Sen. Clinton, Sen. Biden, Sen. Daschle, Sen. Edwards, Sen. Kerry, and Sen. Reid all voted for the resolution and are hardly Bush supporters, I think we can conclude that the resolution made no such implication.

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 2:00 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Since Sen. Clinton, Sen. Biden, Sen. Daschle, Sen. Edwards, Sen. Kerry, and Sen. Reid all voted for the resolution and are hardly Bush supporters, I think we can conclude that the resolution made no such implication."

Since the tea is hot, I think we can conclude the kitty is brown.

Since the earth is round, I think we can conclude the wash is dry.

You get the idea.

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 2:13 PM

RAZZA


Rue:

Since all of these senators have correctly stated on the record in one form or another that 9/11 and Iraq were not linked, can you tell me why they would vote for a resolution that supposedly implies the exact opposite?



-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 2:15 PM

FREMDFIRMA


If you'll pardon my sayin so, those folks ain't the sharpest crayons in the box neither, one reason why I dun want them in charge no more than the morons we currently have.

Go look up Ron Pauls vote.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 2:23 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


So far as I know, with one or two exceptions, all senators were treated to specious data regarding Iraq, including a supposed Prague-terrorist connection. All of it turned out to be untrue, but years too late to affect the vote.


Quote:

Originally posted by Razza:
Rue:

Since all of these senators have correctly stated on the record in one form or another that 9/11 and Iraq were not linked, can you tell me why they would vote for a resolution that supposedly implies the exact opposite?


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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 2:40 PM

RAZZA


Ohh, so they were duped? That Wile E. George Bush did it again! Getting duped by a supposed moron doesn't bode well for their future I'd imagine.

Then again, Sen. Clinton at least used her own sources according to statements she made to the Code Pink organization back in 2003.



I don't think it is a huge stretch to believe that the other senators did not rely solely on information spoon fed to them by the Bush administration either.



-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 2:52 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


You give waaaayy to much credit to the moron in chief. You need to think about president Cheney and his advisor Rove.

The Senators that I knew of at the time of the vote sent out form letters to their constituents (whoever wrote to them) saying they had classified information that made their yes vote necessary. That information was that diddled threat estimate they were assured was true. That's what they said at the time.

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 3:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I'm sort of going thru this thread piece by piece....

CARTOON:
Quote:

After a while, however, I imagine that it will dawn on many of them that the nation who single-handedly has given more to the rest of the world (its enemies, included) has stopped sending the checks, and sadly, the era of global welfare will have ended.
The United States give less per capital than seven other developed nations.

www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_eco_aid_don_percap-economic-aid-donor-p
er-capita


OTOH, as reigning power, the United States has used its power over the last six decades to force unfair deals on various client nations. "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man"
Quote:

They will also likely realize (in relative short order) that the nation which could consistently be depended upon to bail their posteriors out of the fire was conspicuously missing. "Oh dear! There's no one standing between that nasty neighbor and me anymore!! And I don't like the way they're eyeing-up my resources/wealth/citizenry/take your pick..."For all of the U.S.'s faults (and yes, we've had plenty) the U.S. could've played the card the Soviets had in Eastern Europe, and occupied all of Western Europe with satellite, puppet regimes. They could've pulled out of Europe altogether, and let Stalin march to the Atlantic (and then some). They could've ignored a lot of their neighbor's "little problems", for which they consistently and willingly shed the blood of their youth for causes which (in no way) had any bearing on the way we lived our lives back here in the good old U.S.A.
At this point there are many nations who no longer want... if they ever did in the first place... USA "protection". Western Europe, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, and Israel greatly benefitted from our interference. Africa, Asia, and Central/South America would have prolly done better w/o us for the most part, since we coddled and aided dictatorships in many nations.
Quote:

In summary, I can only hope (for the sake of those who have been the ungrateful recipients of America's good will) that when that day does come, that whoever succeeds the U.S. to the top of the pile will demonstrate at least a fraction of compassion and generosity that the U.S. has over the past six decades. After all, there's no guarantee that the next top dog has to be a Truman or Marshall. He (or she) could just as well be a Nero, Ghengis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, or Stalin.
Only time will tell.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 3:37 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


In case Auraptor, Cartoon, Finn and others have forgotten the past, this is the driving force behind the Iraq invasion, and the tenor of the time:

"WASHINGTON: The United States will soon abandon a diplomatic solution to the crisis over Iraq, White House National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice said on Sunday, revealing Washington's frustration with resistance to a possible war.
"We are in a diplomatic window, but it cannot last very much longer," she told NBC. "It will have to come to an end pretty soon." She said Washington would welcome another UN Security Council resolution on Iraq if it would advance the goal of disarming the regime of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, but was determined not to allow Saddam to escape his obligations by splitting the council.

"We don't want a security council resolution that somehow is a delaying tactic," Rice said and added: "The security council cannot continue on this path for much longer. I don't understand how anyone can say the inspections are working," Rice told Fox.

Senator John McCain, a leading lawmaker from Bush's Republican party, echoed Rice's frustration. "There's got to come a time where we say 'enough is enough,' and I think the United States and Britain are at this point," he told Fox.

US officials, meanwhile, declined to indicate their next move, with White House spokeswoman Jeanie Mamo saying Bush "still hopes for a peaceful resolution, and that is up to Saddam Hussein."

Secretary of State Colin Powell indicated the administration was now uncertain it would seek a second resolution to approve use of force against Iraq. But if Iraq has still fails to disarm, Washington is ready "to lead a coalition of nations that would be willing to join the United States in the disarmament," Powell said.

At the same time there was no respite in the global anti-war protests, besides a convoy of anti-war protestors, ready to serve as human shields in the event of an attack on Iraq arrived in Baghdad on Sunday, the spokesman for the group Torben Franck said in London. A separate convoy of protestors is due to arrive in Baghdad on Monday, when 50 volunteers are to fly from London's Heathrow airport to Amman in Jordan. More peace activists are due to fly out of London February 21.

Global anti-war protests on a scale not seen since the Vietnam War, coming after a majority of the UN Security Council backed further inspections in a bid to assure Iraq's disarmament, have left Washington increasingly isolated. More than 400,000 people demonstrated across Australia again on Sunday, after London saw its biggest protest yet, with at least 750,000 filling Hyde Park on Saturday."

The Iraq invasion was DESPITE the UN. Let's get that clear and stop quoting UN resolutions as some sort of rationalization. Okay?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:01 PM

RAZZA


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
CARTOON:
Quote:

After a while, however, I imagine that it will dawn on many of them that the nation who single-handedly has given more to the rest of the world (its enemies, included) has stopped sending the checks, and sadly, the era of global welfare will have ended.
The United States give less per capital than seven other developed nations.

www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_eco_aid_don_percap-economic-aid-donor-p
er-capita




Signym:

The site defines economic aid as:

Quote:

DEFINITION: The net official development assistance (ODA) from Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) nations to developing countries and multilateral organizations. ODA is defined as financial assistance that is concessional in character, has the main objective to promote economic development and welfare of the less developed countries (LDCs), and contains a grant element of at least 25%. The entry does not cover other official flows (OOF) or private flows." Per capita figures expressed per 1 population.


I believe Cartoon was including private donations in his statement as well as the government sponsored assistance included in your citations numbers. Does this mean you only beleive government funded assistance is valid assistance?

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:05 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Enforcing UN resolutions was a legitimate rationalization for the war. The US and the UK voted for and helped draft each of those resolution. And more importantly, the US and the UK were responsible for enforcement of those resolutions under the auspices of the UNSC. One of the reasons, bin Laden gave for 9/ll was the existence of US bases and operations in Iraq and Saudi Arabia in response to UN resolutions. So the US had direct responsibility in drafting these resolution, direct responsibility in enforcing these resolutions and they were taking casualties because of it. So the enforcement of UN resolutions by the US and the UK is absolutely a legitimate rationalization.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:34 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

The Senators that I knew of at the time of the vote sent out form letters to their constituents (whoever wrote to them) saying they had classified information that made their yes vote necessary. That information was that diddled threat estimate they were assured was true. That's what they said at the time.

Annnnnnnnnd...

This brings us right back to how secrecy under the bullshit veil of "National Security" completely wrecks the entire process, disenfranchising the people and their representatives because they do not have valid, accurate information to base their decisions on.

GIGO.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 6:10 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


As I mentioned, you act as if that tiny remark about 9/11 is ALL that was mentioned, when in fact it's barely commented at all. Fully 99% of the Congressional resolution is about Iraq and the U.N. Try looking through the other end of the microscope.

rue- just because they were 'big stories' doesn't mean they were true. There's all manner of trumped up fairy tales by the media which , after some careful examination, turn out to be nothing remotely like what the initial story was portrayed.


People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 6:41 PM

SASSALICIOUS


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
It seems that the REASONS for going to war never changed



You mean to find all of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction? We went, we looked, they don't have any. Time to come home.

David



Oh, sure. And then be blamed for leaving Iraq in a revisiting of The Killing Fields, like we saw in Cambodia, circa 1970's. Do you REALLY want that to happen again for humanity?


People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



The U.S. recognized Pol Pot as the legitimate leader of Cambodia. Therefore we're ever so slightly responsible for what happened there. Never mind the damage we caused in the country that led to his uprising.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Wednesday, January 31, 2007 7:44 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Rap,

You did kind of evade the question. How is it you keep flogging stuff that's untrue? Not just some of the time, but ALL the time. Who took your common sense from you?

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 12:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

rue- just because they were 'big stories' doesn't mean they were true. There's all manner of trumped up fairy tales by the media which , after some careful examination, turn out to be nothing remotely like what the initial story was portrayed.

Oh, you mean like the Kuwaiti 'incubator' story, "mushroom clouds", liquid bombs, terror plots that evaporate on the slightest investigation, saddams WMDs, tapes from "Al Qeada" featuring what must be albino arabs and/or Osamas who must have had radical plastic surgery, Obama's so-called muslim edcuation, and all the other bullshit shovelled from the rightwingnuts ?

Yeah, all manner of fairy tales, no doubt.

Dude, once a source has so completely blown it's credibility, why believe anything further they try to feed you ?

I've yet to see a single ounce of evidence, for example, linking even OBL to 9-11, in the rush to battle, too many folk stopped asking the right questions - and now that it's too late, the answers we're getting suck.

Or when pressed for evidence, that whole veil of secrecy thing again.

It's bullshit, and the sooner folks realize that, the sooner this insanity will stop.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 4:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Auraptor- I'm really busy right now. I'll get with you later.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 12:11 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Oh, you mean like the Kuwaiti 'incubator' story, "mushroom clouds", liquid bombs, terror plots that evaporate on the slightest investigation, saddams WMDs, tapes from "Al Qeada" featuring what must be albino arabs and/or Osamas who must have had radical plastic surgery, Obama's so-called muslim edcuation, and all the other bullshit shovelled from the rightwingnuts ?

Yeah, all manner of fairy tales, no doubt.

Dude, once a source has so completely blown it's credibility, why believe anything further they try to feed you ?

I've yet to see a single ounce of evidence, for example, linking even OBL to 9-11, in the rush to battle, too many folk stopped asking the right questions - and now that it's too late, the answers we're getting suck.

Or when pressed for evidence, that whole veil of secrecy thing again.

It's bullshit, and the sooner folks realize that, the sooner this insanity will stop.

-Frem




So, because the incubator story was likely exaggerated, Iraq didn't invade Kuwait and there were zero attrocities committed by Saddam's armies? Wow.

Terrorist have vowed to nuke Israel and the West. You'd ignore their threats.....why ? All that was said is that we should act BEFORE there are mushroom clouds. Seems damn reasonable. I know for a fact you'd be the 1st one asking why nothing was done BEFORE the nukes went off, should it ever come to that.

You fail to see any connection between al Qaeda and 9/11?

You sir, are a moron.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 12:37 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Razza:
I believe Cartoon was including private donations in his statement as well as the government sponsored assistance included in your citations numbers. Does this mean you only beleive government funded assistance is valid assistance?

If we include this do I get to say the US funded terrorism against the UK because a large amount of IRA funding came from US Citizens?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 4:19 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Rap,

"All that was said is that we should act BEFORE there are mushroom clouds."

The UN WAS acting - and it was within a few weeks of finding a WMD-free Iraq. Under those conditions, why did the US invade?

As to Iraq and 9/11 - please cite some evidence.

But you still didn't answer my question. It's like you have no existence, no thoughts, no responses beyond talking points. I'd say you were a Rovian wet-dream, made corporeal. Or, more accurately, incorporated.

So, why do you persist in dumping the bs so completely and consistently? How'd you get that way?

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 6:24 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Hey Cit....

If America wanted to really throw its millitary weight around, the Middle East would look like Superman's Fortress of Solitude by now.

Sand + Nukes = Glass.

If this were a move of America really trying to say to the world that we don't give a shit what you think and we're going to do what we want, than that's how it would have gone down. Surely Mecca would have been destroyed for what happened to the Twin Towers.

If they wanted to convince me that this is a "war" that we really had any intention of winning from the start, we would be doing something about keeping more Muslims from entering our country every day, but we don't do that either.

This "war" is simply a manuver to funnel more tax dollars into the Federation. It is also meant as a means to spy on everyone who lives here and to enforce the Real ID. It will ultimately make America look so horrible in the eyes of the world that after we fail miserably we will end up kneeling before our new one world government and be absorbed by them. In the end, we will have no more allies to turn to and we will have no choice but to become part of the New World Order because our economies are so tied up with each other and China. Canada, Mexico and USA will all have the same currency like the Euro.

America has been completely immasculated. The America we knew and grew up with is no more. We're full of politicians, and lawyers, and beurocrats and diplomats and pussies with no balls who consistantly pass the buck and sidestep important issues while they sell us out to the higest bidder behind our backs. It's a runaway government and I have no disillusions why the rest of the world hates us. Believe me when I say that not every American believes all of the bullshit and that there are those of us who should not be lumped in with that hatered for America and Americans.

Realize that this isn't just America. It's easy to think so when we're at the helm of such a catastropy, but it is your government as well. It's any government who has banned smoking from thier bars and resturants. It's any government who lets the Federal Reserve print thier money. We're all part of a greater whole that isn't going to spend forever behind the scenes. Forces are coming together and as they grow more powerful they will no longer need to hide in the shadows manipulating things. They're all working together, even when it seems like one of them is doing what the others don't want. (See: America's invasion of the Middle East).

You just keep watching and see how bad this is going to turn out and how bad America looks in the end. Then we'll see how long it takes for us to bow down and take our seat at the UN. And, it won't be the head seat of the table either.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 6:34 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


This I agree with: "while they sell us out to the higest bidder behind our backs".

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Thursday, February 1, 2007 7:40 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

So, because the incubator story was likely exaggerated, Iraq didn't invade Kuwait and there were zero attrocities committed by Saddam's armies?
Do you really think we'll be diverted by this pathetic straw man? Silly man!

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:41 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Again, show me one whit, one single ounce of proof from any confirmed, reputable source.

None has been forthcoming, none will be forthcoming.

I've been asking that question since it happened, and lemme repeat now what I said then.

"Sure, we want some heads for this, but I want the RIGHT heads, and for that we must have an actual investigation and some real, tangible evidence of who the responsible parties were."

You gonna take the word of the folks who lied about everydamnthing else for granted when they claim OBL or Al Qeade was behind 9-11 ?

Why ?

Show me evidence, ANY evidence worth a damn.
That question got buried in the rush to war, and it's past time to dig it back out and start asking it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, February 2, 2007 5:10 AM

RAZZA


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
If we include this do I get to say the US funded terrorism against the UK because a large amount of IRA funding came from US Citizens?



Actually, since such activities were illegal under US Law, no you don't.

-----------------
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Friday, February 2, 2007 6:58 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Hey Cit....

If America wanted to really throw its millitary weight around, the Middle East would look like Superman's Fortress of Solitude by now.

Sand + Nukes = Glass.

If America ever uses nuclear weapons you can kiss your arse good bye. Doesn't matter who the weapons are launched against every other nuclear power (China, Russia etc) that is anti-US or has a history of such would be firing back. No one, not even GWB, is going to be launching nuclear weapons until after the end of the world.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 7:00 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Razza:
Actually, since such activities were illegal under US Law, no you don't.

And for years the US did fuck all to stop it. It was, after all, only terrorism killing foriegners.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Friday, February 2, 2007 7:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


FINN
Quote:

Enforcing UN resolutions was a legitimate rationalization for the war. The US and the UK voted for and helped draft each of those resolution. And more importantly, the US and the UK were responsible for enforcement of those resolutions under the auspices of the UNSC. One of the reasons, bin Laden gave for 9/ll was the existence of US bases and operations in Iraq and Saudi Arabia in response to UN resolutions. So the US had direct responsibility in drafting these resolution, direct responsibility in enforcing these resolutions and they were taking casualties because of it. So the enforcement of UN resolutions by the US and the UK is absolutely a legitimate rationalization.
The problem is that "UN resolution-enforcment" is as you say: a rationalization, not a reason. A rationalization is, at best, an excuse that can be logically but not realistically defended. We can tell that correspondance with reality is lacking because the outcome of an action is not what was predicted by the justification.

So, for example, as you say the US and UK had "authority" to enforce UN resolutions under the UNSC. But that is not the same as saying the that the USA and UK had UNSC "support" for the invasion, and in fact the USA avoided a UNSC vote on the topic in order "not to split" the SC (i.e. in order to invade without having to deal with SC opposition.) So, sure, the US Administration could justify to itself what it wanted to do but that justification was tissue-thin, and of no practical help in the matter.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 8:49 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
So, for example, as you say the US and UK had "authority" to enforce UN resolutions under the UNSC. But that is not the same as saying the that the USA and UK had UNSC "support" for the invasion,

There was no UN mandate. That’s right.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, February 2, 2007 8:58 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Razza:
Actually, since such activities were illegal under US Law, no you don't.

Also London is Al Qaeda principle ideological headquarters in the Western World. So if Citizen wants to point to a few fruitcakes in the US, I’ll just point to 30% of the London Muslim community who support Al Qaeda, including organization that bin Laden directly communicated with. There are fruitcakes in every country and the more liberal those countries are the easier it becomes for the fruitcakes to operate clandestinely.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, February 2, 2007 9:00 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by Razza:
Actually, since such activities were illegal under US Law, no you don't.

Also London is Al Qaeda principle ideological headquarters in the Western World. So if Citizen wants to point to a few fruitcakes in the US, I’ll just point to 30% of the London Muslim community who support Al Qaeda, including organization that bin Laden directly communicated with. There are fruitcakes in every country and the more liberal those countries are the easier it becomes for the fruitcakes to operate clandestinely.

Except Britain is doing something about it, America didn't give a shit for decades.

Oh and 30%, making up statistics are we?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Friday, February 2, 2007 10:14 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Except Britain is doing something about it, America didn't give a shit for decades.

Sounds like bullshit to me.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, February 2, 2007 11:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

'Rap: So, because the incubator story was likely exaggerated, Iraq didn't invade Kuwait and there were zero attrocities committed by Saddam's armies?

Signy: Do you really think we'll be diverted by this pathetic straw man? Silly man!

So 'Rap, are you ready for serious discussion?


---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 11:40 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Except Britain is doing something about it, America didn't give a shit for decades.

Sounds like bullshit to me.

Yep that's about the best we can expect from you Finn. How many of your hard earned dollars went to blowing up innocents in London I wonder.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:01 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Yep that's about the best we can expect from you Finn. How many of your hard earned dollars went to blowing up innocents in London I wonder.

What do you call someone who tries to incite a flamewar? Oh yeah, a troll.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:02 PM

CITIZEN


Indeed, and since it was you who started with the flamable comments...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:07 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


"If we include this do I get to say the US funded terrorism against the UK because a large amount of IRA funding came from US Citizens?"
-Citizen, Ibid.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:10 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
"If we include this do I get to say the US funded terrorism against the UK because a large amount of IRA funding came from US Citizens?"
-Citizen, Ibid.

If you find a statement of fact as inciting a flame war then the fault obviously lies with yourself.

It really isn't my fault you can't except facts you don't like without flaming.

EDIT:
Finn's responce to disagreement:
Sounds like bullshit to me.

Very substantive, not at all inflammatory, well done Finn.

-Finn, Ibid.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:18 PM

OLDENGLANDDRY


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:


if i put this into perspective, its possible that a decade from now, UN troops could come into AMerica, to quell public unrest(dissent) or something, and with the support of a collaboration of nations, step onto our shores, middle america, and impose their beliefs and their law onto us






Where do I sign.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:25 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
If you find a statement of fact as inciting a flame war then the fault obviously lies with yourself.

The factuality of the statement has nothing to do with it; the issue is whether you were trolling for an argument, which you were. A large portion of Al Qaeda’s funding came from Britain; that’s a fact. Trying to pass that statement off as a critique of the British without context who, by and large, are not supporters of Al Qaeda is disingenuous. How is that any different then criticizing, out of the blue, American private denotations as funding the IRA? It’s not. In fact, I would call it bullshit, and I did.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:27 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The factuality of the statement has nothing to do with it; the issue is whether you were trolling for an argument, which you were. A large portion of Al Qaeda’s funding came from Britain; that’s a fact. Trying to pass that statement off as a critique of the British without context who, by and large, are not supporters of Al Qaeda is disingenuous. How is that any different then criticizing, out of the blue, American private denotations as funding the IRA? It’s not. In fact, I would call it bullshit, and I did.

I wasn't, finn, exactly the opposite in fact. But hey if you want to call saying the US wasn't financially supporting the IRA bullshit, that's up to you.

Read my statements over a few times in context, I'm sure you'll get it eventually. I can help you if you like, or you can, you know, continue to troll for an argument and oh so politely personally attack anyone you disagree with.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:37 PM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:


if i put this into perspective, its possible that a decade from now, UN troops could come into AMerica, to quell public unrest(dissent) or something, and with the support of a collaboration of nations, step onto our shores, middle america, and impose their beliefs and their law onto us




Where do I sign.

Don't need to wait ten years, the UN needs to send some oberservers over for the next elections anyway. In light of recent electoral shortcomings, it's quite obvious that America needs external supervision when it comes to electing its leaders.



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:47 PM

CHRISISALL


Hey everybody- flame all you want...just do it nicer, okay?

Get along Chrisisall

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Friday, February 2, 2007 12:57 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I wasn't, finn, exactly the opposite in fact. But hey if you want to call saying the US wasn't financially supporting the IRA bullshit, that's up to you.

So now you’re changing your story? Good. Because you’re original one stunk.

Terrorists have always found a way of getting money, and a great deal of it comes in the form of seemingly legitimate charities in the wealthy Western World, but to blanketly criticize charitable donations as supporting terrorism is a mistake, at best. US private overseas donations are often more then twice as large as the government aid, and the vast majority of that is not to terrorist organization.

I guarantee you that no more of my hard earned dollars went to kill innocent people in London, then your hard earned pounds went to kill innocent people in New York.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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