REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The beginning of a 10-year drought?

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Sunday, May 25, 2014 02:15
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VIEWED: 3561
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Sunday, May 18, 2014 11:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So far, CA has reacted to the historic drought as if it were a one-time event. Early measurements indicate a significant El Nino brewing in the Pacific, and some long-range forecasters are pinning their hopes on significant rainfall this coming winter. But El Nino does NOT reliably deliver rainfall, and when it does deliver, it's only to Southern CA.

Our Water Management District- the agency which measures and regulates the groundwater under southern LA County- has increased the amount of treated sewage water being pumped into the aquifers by 7 million gallons per year, to a total of 23 million gallons.

And 23 million gallons per year sounds like a LOT, until you realize that the service area includes about 3 million people. That means a supply of about 7 gallons per person per year. Which, in those terms, isn't a heckuva lot.

If we're facing a long-term drought, what should we do?

http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 11:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 12:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The source that you dismiss has the following linked.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-could-be-in-for-century-long-me
gadrought
/

Quote:

BERKELEY, Calif. --

Government forecasters predicted Thursday that the weather system known as El Nino could return this year. It could bring much-needed rain to the West. Ninety-five percent of California is in drought, and some scientists are now warning of a megadrought.

Scientist Lynn Ingram, author of "The West without Water: What Past Floods, Droughts, and Other Climatic Clues Tell Us about Tomorrow," uses sediment cores inside tubes to study the history of drought in the West.

"We've taken this record back about 3,000 years," Ingram says.

That record shows California is in one of its driest periods since 1580. While a three-to-five-year drought is often thought of as being a long drought, Ingram says history shows they can be much longer.

"If we go back several thousand years, we've seen that droughts can last over a decade, and in some cases, they can last over a century," she says.

The evidence of these so-called "megadroughts" is found in San Francisco Bay. Ingram and her team at the University of California Berkeley remove the sediment from the bay and nearby marshes.

"What you notice is that the vegetation shifts to more salt-tolerant type vegetation," she says. That's because during drought, there is less fresh water runoff into the bay. Tree rings on ancient tree stumps tell the same story: narrow or non-existent rings during decades of drought.

"These patterns tend to repeat themselves," Ingram says. "I mean, we can expect that this will happen again."

Scientists say their research shows the 20th century was one of the wettest centuries in the past 1,300 years. During that time, we built massive dams and rerouted rivers. We used abundant water to build major cities and create a $45 billion agriculture industry in a place that used to be a desert.



Umm... so other than attacking the messenger, do you have any thoughts about the content?

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 1:05 PM

CHRISISALL


I feel badly for dead mammal flesh-addicts.

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 1:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I think it's every citizen's responsibility to question the messenger, don't you?
No, not in order to avoid the message.

And, no, I don't agree that the problem is that our infrastructure is overbuilt. If our infrastructure was even adequate, we would have a significant multi-year water surplus, with many possible sources to draw from. The problem is that we always seem to expand consumption to exceed infrastructure, no matter WHAT we build.

So, what should we DO?

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 1:25 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I feel badly for dead mammal flesh-addicts.



Maybe there'll be enough shark fins to remove from their owners to make up the difference.

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 1:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Compelling reading...

THE AGE OF THIRST

Quote:

Virtually every city in the region experienced unprecedented temperatures, with Phoenix, Arizona, as usual, leading the march towards unliveable conditions. This past summer, the so-called Valley of the Sun set a new record of 33 days when the mercury reached a shoe-melting 110 degrees Fahrenheit or higher. (The previous record of 32 days was set in 2007.)

And here's the bad news in a nutshell: If you live in the Southwest or just about anywhere in the American West, you or your children and grandchildren could soon enough be facing the "Age of Thirst", which may also prove to be the greatest water crisis in the history of civilisation. No kidding.

If that gets you down, here's a little cheer-up note: The end is not yet nigh.

In fact, this year the weather elsewhere rode to the rescue, and the news for the Southwest was good where it really mattered. Since January, the biggest reservoir in the United States, Lake Mead, backed up by the Hoover Dam and just 30 miles southwest of Las Vegas, has risen almost 40 feet. That lake is crucial when it comes to watering lawns or taking showers from Arizona to California. And the near 40-foot surge of extra water offered a significant upward nudge to the Southwest's water reserves.

The Colorado River, which the reservoir impounds, supplies all or part of the water on which nearly 30 million people depend, most of them living downstream of Lake Mead in Los Angeles, San Diego, Phoenix, Tucson, Tijuana, and scores of smaller communities in the US and Mexico.

Back in 1999, the lake was full. Patricia Mulroy, who heads the water utility serving Las Vegas, rues the optimism of those bygone days. "We had a fifty-year, reliable water supply", she says. "By 2002, we had no water supply. We were out. We were done. I swore to myself we'd never do that again."

In 2000, the lake began to fall - like a boulder off a cliff, bouncing a couple of times on the way down. Its water level dropped a staggering 130 feet, stopping less than seven feet above the stage that would have triggered reductions in downstream deliveries. Then - and here's the good news - last winter, it snowed prodigiously up north in Colorado, Utah and Wyoming.

The spring and summer run-off from those snowpacks brought enormous relief. It renewed what we in the Southwest like to call the "Hydro-Illogic" cycle: when drought comes, everybody wrings their hands and promises to institute needed reform, if only it would rain a little. Then the drought breaks or eases and we all return to business as usual, until the cycle comes around to drought again.

So don't be fooled. One day, perhaps soon, Lake Mead will renew its downward plunge. That's a given, the experts tell us. And here's the thing: the next time, a sudden rescue by heavy snows in the northern Rockies might not come. If the snowpacks of the future are merely ordinary, let alone puny, then you'll know that we really are entering a new age.

And climate change will be a major reason, but we'll have done a good job of aiding and abetting it. The states of the so-called Lower Basin of the Colorado River - California, Arizona and Nevada - have been living beyond their water means for years. Any departure from recent decades of hydrological abundance, even a return to long-term average flows in the Colorado River, would produce a painful reckoning for the Lower Basin states. And even worse is surely on the way.

Just think of the coming Age of Thirst in the American Southwest and West as a three-act tragedy of Shakespearean dimensions.

More at

http://www.thenation.com/article/164970/greatest-water-crisis-history-
civilization

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 1:40 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I had hoped that , after the Y2K crap, the crazies would wake the hell up from their doom and gloom trance, and join the rest of the world in reality.


Guess not.

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 1:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Hey rappy, thanks for bumping the thread.

The question still stands: What do we DO?

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 1:42 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, what should we DO?

First, we should have multi-family homes. Then, limit the number of kids you can have to two per couple (you can have more, but you'll pay a fine of 300 hours of community service per each additional kid per year), and then we can share the kids in the multi-family homes! These homes will be cheaper to live in as more employed peeps are contributing to a single rent or mortgage, driving up expendable cash that would re-enter the economy (my trickle-up theory).
Taxes on luxury items would then pay for reinforced infrastructure.

I know I'm just daydreaming here...

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 1:43 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Hey rappy, thanks for bumping the thread.

The question still stands: What do we DO?



It was already at or near the top.

What we do is step back and take a breath.

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 1:51 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


G

I first ran across the notion of 'megadroughts' in a scientific journal. Oh, the things one finds in such trashy sourness. The article I read indicated the sw may be in a 500 year mega-drought.

It's entirely possible the coast is also entering a megadrought - though a 100 year long one would be short in megadrought terms.

Yanno, you used to be an intelligent person. When did you get so stupid?



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 1:55 PM

JONGSSTRAW



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Sunday, May 18, 2014 2:08 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Coastal areas could always use desalination, solar would be good. Foggy areas could use fog capture. BTW I just saw an interesting program indicating beavers make good water reservoir builders in areas where snow is no longer a viable water storage means due to high temperatures and melting.

I foresee a time when the agriculture that depends on the Ogallala aquifer collapses and creates a dust bowl as has not yet been seen. The Central Valley Aquifer is already going. So we should probably start serious water conservation methods now, and return significant amounts of land to drought resistant biomes.

But we'll probably just continue to draw out of rivers and aquifers until they're gone, and then it'll be a crisis.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 2:10 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:


BTW I just saw an interesting program indicating beavers make good water reservoir builders in areas where snow is no longer a viable water storage means due to high temperatures and melting.



2 beavers are better than one


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Sunday, May 18, 2014 2:22 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.






OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 3:02 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


FWIW it looks like California has a 2009 greywater code that allows it:

http://greywateraction.org/content/requirements-no-permit-systems-cali
fornia




OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 7:14 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So, you have no answer for your INSTANTANEOUS branding of this topic as "the liberal flip side to Infowars" before you even examined the information. And would far prefer to troll than think. Yep. Stupid. It's all over you.


Man, the sources you pull from - "alarmist journalism" - it feels like the liberal flip side to Infowars.

endoftheamericandream.com - what a great site name *eyeroll*. It's become a more common American Dream to run a web site that makes you a living from ringing that alarm bell to drive visits and clicks for your advertisers. Irony.

"Beef at and all time high" I hope so! It would be better for our health as a nation - so I see that as a good thing, that should be a story about how we'll have less chance to screw up our diet - yeah.

That is not to say I doubt the drought reports in your state. I've heard about cattle ranchers in many states having to sell their herds because they don't have water - Texas for one.




OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:22 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So, I was curious and looked up City of Los Angeles municipal code when it comes to landscaping - it looks like there's a certain requirement for plants and mulch is not a substitute:
http://cityplanning.lacity.org/Forms_Procedures/landsc%20guidelines%20
4-05.pdf

and
https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code/city/ca/LosAngeles/Municipal/chap
ter01.html


shall be fully landscaped with lawn, trees, shrubs or suitable groundcover, and no portion except the access driveways shall be paved

I think changing municipal codes to allow for eco-friendly mulch instead of plants might help reduce water demand. FWIW I've seen regulations elsewhere (not sure how they play out in So Cal) that include the area of the mature tree canopy as 'planted' area for calculation purposes.



OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Monday, May 19, 2014 12:37 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


G, apparently you really don't "get" what I'm saying
Quote:

I am not avoiding the message UNLESS I think the messenger has a bias or an agenda for slanting the facts.
But how can you determine whether there is a bias UNLESS you evaluate the message? If there is something about the messenger you don't like... and it could be something very trivial... apparently you'll avoid the message itself, and therefore the messenger can never be in a position of being shown right- or wrong- in your eyes. It's a catch-22.
Quote:

Do you trust FOX?
No, but its' not about trusting the messenger- or at least it shouldn't be.

Quote:

That's why it's important to know who you are reading, do they have a conclusion they are back filling to support? I don't know you and I am skeptical of your motives.
It's absolutely irrelevant WHO you're reading, if you're willing and able to evaluate WHAT they're communicating. That way, you don't have to trust anyone, and you aren't blocking out information because of prejudice. I have found interesting facts and insights in the unlikeliest of places.

You keep placing emphasis on trust. Depending on someone else to do your thinking/ opinining for you. It's not necessary, in fact it's damaging and it tends to keep people in little echo-chambers that they build for themselves.

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Monday, May 19, 2014 8:54 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Children, children, don't make me send them to your room.

So I live in the driest of continents in the world, aparently. Although you wouldn't guess it where I live because it ALWAYS rains here.

Nevertheless, a 10 year drought forced people into behaviour change. Sometimes I think that's the only way change really happens. Rain water tanks, grey water tanks are pretty common, as are duel flush toilets - which are compulsory, water saving shower heads, drought resistent gardening.

Small fry in the long run when its business and agriculture which consume far and away the greatest amounts of water. And you should have seen the stoushes which had begun over who removed what amount of water out of what system and for what purpose. Only thing that prevented a few small wars breaking out was that the drought broke a few years ago.

God it was confronting while it lasted though. Seeing dried up lakes and rivers, waterfalls which no longer existed and then of course, at the culmination of it all, the Black Saturday fires.

Predications are that whatever the waivers up and down, we'll get more extreme weather. More catastrophic fire conditions, more floods.

My next house


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Monday, May 19, 2014 11:09 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
C

Small fry in the long run when its business and agriculture which consume far and away the greatest amounts of water.




The number I keep hearing is that 80 % of the water in California is used for agriculture. Which makes all of the bitching we do about swimming pools and green lawns in the desert a, well, a drop in the bucket. Even though I love to bitch about 'em too.

Time for agribusiness to get serious about low water farming. After all, the ag business is about money, not people's lives. 'Course, money talks, and big money, like ag-biz, talks really loud when your local Congressman is up for sale.

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Monday, May 19, 2014 12:55 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

No - I even stated very simply so there would be no question, that I QUESTION every messenger.

Why?
And is your question for the messenger?
Is the question "Do you have a bias??" Because the "messenger" is almost always going to say "no", but messengers ALWAYS have a bias. Messengers can't help it- it's unavoidable, if nothing else because humans just never know everything about everything, SOMEthing will always be left out. That's bias!

So, yes, each an every messenger is biased. So how friggin' useful is THAT?

Quote:

No. I don't depend on others, that's kind of the whole point of being wary of sources, innit?

No, it's not. When you're wary of a "source", you may be looking into their motivation or their opinion. But, in the world of facts, motivation and opinion are irrelevant because, yanno, facts are facts. For example, there are only so many million acre feet in a river system. Certain kinds of agriculture under certain conditions demand so many acre-feet. Dinosaurs either did, or did not, exist. The earth is, or is not, roundish. MKULtra did, or did not, exist. It doesn't -or shouldn't- matter that I first heard about MKUltra from one of our bona fide borderline schizos on the board.

Now, the problem is, quite often it's difficult to ascertain or verify the facts personally. What we're left with, at times, is simply of welter of different statements by different people: history attempting to be written by parties who hope to be the victor. That's why I find it useful to get as close to the original data as possible- the original research paper, photos and audio recordings, leaked documents etc.

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Monday, May 19, 2014 12:56 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I feel badly for dead mammal flesh-addicts.



There's always Squirrels... the Cockroaches of the Mammalian Family. :)

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, May 19, 2014 1:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


We have few squirrels here. But we DO have opossums. And raccoons. And tree rats.

Personally, if you have the room and the city allows, I've heard that keeping some chickens in the backyard is a good source of protein, and they keep your garden bug-free without chemicals.

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Monday, May 19, 2014 1:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yes, agriculture is a big player in water demand. Nothing is quite as surreal as seeing a big round field of alfalfa (with a rotating irrigator) in the middle if a desert. An inefficient use of water if I ever saw one, yessiree Bob! More water-wise crops would be the way to go.

It seems to me that if people are going to spend a crap-ton of $$ on watering their lawns, how about watering a vegetable garden and trees instead? And for the part that's NOT producing, go xeric with natives. Because when the climate changes, those xeric areas may be the only remnants of the original vegetation, and (IMHO) it's always good to retain biodiversity. So, simple conservation and re-purposing.

Agricultural runoff is actually a good source of water, once it's been demineralized, and solar stills are a low-cost way of bringing water quality back up to snuff. It's being tried in the central valley; I don't understand why it isn't being tried everywhere (ie near the Aral Sea, in Egypt etc)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/17/1300051/-Solar-Desalination-S
tart-up-is-making-Fresh-Water-affordable-in-California


In water-limited areas, clearly there needs to be a no-growth policy.

We need to restore and protect our forests and wetlands, because in a regimen of less snowpack and more rain, we need to retain more water instead of having it flush down to the ocean in three days. It seems strange that a region can go from record floods one year to record drought the other, without any water have gone into the aquifer "bank". (The concern of the Army Corps of Engineers was flooding, so they channelized and lot of rivers- including the Mississippi and its tributaries, which leads to the fast runoff. ) And once again, biochar and environmental remediation can help.





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Monday, May 19, 2014 3:52 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
I can't believe that you don't question who is telling you what? You believe Ted Cruz?

It's entirely within the realm of possibility that Ted Cruz might possibly someday accidentally allow truth to escape his lips. Truth is not owned by the speaker of it, the speaker merely passes it on.

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Monday, May 19, 2014 5:04 PM

OONJERAH



Hmmmm. The math.

So ... for those of us who habitually don't know what we're talking about
and never have known, the chance of saying a factual thing could be as
much as 50%? But if we've always spoken freely without reference to facts,
our truth score would be irrelevant ... probably even annoying.

We wouldn't even bother to apologize for truth-telling. :)



... oooOO}{OOooo ...

If your happiness depends on what somebody else does,
I guess you do have a problem.

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Monday, May 19, 2014 6:33 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
It's entirely within the realm of possibility that Ted Cruz might possibly someday accidentally allow truth to escape his lips. Truth is not owned by the speaker of it, the speaker merely passes it on.



Rather than a broken clock (which has an accuracy record several magnitudes better than Cruz), he is like a broken digital calendar. Right once a year.... IF it happens to be plugged in.



“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”? Isaac Asimov

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Monday, May 19, 2014 7:13 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
he is like a broken digital calendar. Right once a year.... IF it happens to be plugged in.

I'd agree to that. Point is, that truth is truth. I've heard Rappy say some true stuff at times. Yes, he is a really lousy source, and he gets his political programming from really lousy sources, but when he says Firefly is a good show, what should we say? Oh, that's the Rapturd talkin' so Firefly might not really be that good-?

I'm with Signy on this.

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Monday, May 19, 2014 8:22 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So far, CA has reacted to the historic drought as if it were a one-time event. Early measurements indicate a significant El Nino brewing in the Pacific, and some long-range forecasters are pinning their hopes on significant rainfall this coming winter. But El Nino does NOT reliably deliver rainfall, and when it does deliver, it's only to Southern CA.

Our Water Management District- the agency which measures and regulates the groundwater under southern LA County- has increased the amount of treated sewage water being pumped into the aquifers by 7 million gallons per year, to a total of 23 million gallons.

And 23 million gallons per year sounds like a LOT, until you realize that the service area includes about 3 million people. That means a supply of about 7 gallons per person per year. Which, in those terms, isn't a heckuva lot.

If we're facing a long-term drought, what should we do?

http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/


Make sure the turtles have enough, before we're allowed to waste it on you.

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Tuesday, May 20, 2014 12:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


G

I'm not entrenched in my position, I truly don't understand yours. You keep asking questions like "Do you believe Ted Cruz?", and the answer is... I don't "believe" ANYbody. You shouldn't either. Heck, you shouldn't believe ME!

As far as I can tell, the only questions you should be asking when presented with new information is (1) Is it real? and (2) Is it significant? If it's BOTH, well....

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Tuesday, May 20, 2014 11:43 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
he is like a broken digital calendar. Right once a year.... IF it happens to be plugged in.

I'd agree to that. Point is, that truth is truth. I've heard Rappy say some true stuff at times. Yes, he is a really lousy source, and he gets his political programming from really lousy sources, but when he says Firefly is a good show, what should we say? Oh, that's the Rapturd talkin' so Firefly might not really be that good-?

I'm with Signy on this.



Oh, I agree. Im just less convinced as to the frequency at which he arrives at something actually true.



“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”? Isaac Asimov

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Tuesday, May 20, 2014 1:15 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
We have few squirrels here. But we DO have opossums. And raccoons. And tree rats.

Personally, if you have the room and the city allows, I've heard that keeping some chickens in the backyard is a good source of protein, and they keep your garden bug-free without chemicals.




Man, how I wish I had an awesome back-yard on my 1/2 acre......

It's nearly ALL front yard. Just enough lawn for my neighbors to tell me that everyone who lived here before had a rider-mower......

I don't like when my neighbor's dog barks for no reason in the middle of the day when I'm trying to sleep, and my neighbors are pretty damn awesome about making it so.

I'd never subject my neighbors to mindless clucking in my small back yard :(



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, May 21, 2014 5:39 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:


The number I keep hearing is that 80 % of the water in California is used for agriculture. Which makes all of the bitching we do about swimming pools and green lawns in the desert a, well, a drop in the bucket. Even though I love to bitch about 'em too.

Time for agribusiness to get serious about low water farming. After all, the ag business is about money, not people's lives. 'Course, money talks, and big money, like ag-biz, talks really loud when your local Congressman is up for sale.



Some australian figures re water consumption:

Quote:

In 2009–10, the Agriculture industry was by far the largest consumer of water, accounting for 52% of total water consumption in that year. The Water supply, sewerage and drainage services industry and Household sector were the next highest (14% each), followed by the Manufacturing industry (5%).

The Agriculture industry consumed 6,987 GL of water in 2009–10. Sheep, beef cattle and grain farming had the highest consumption within the Agriculture industry, with 2,649 GL (or 38% of the industry’s consumption). An estimated 2% (126 GL) of total agricultural water use was actually re-use water. Nursery and floriculture production consumed the highest percentage of re-use water at 7% of their total water consumption, followed by Mushroom and vegetable growing at 3% of their total water consumption.

The Mining industry accounted for 4% (489 GL) of water consumption by Australian industry in 2009–10, with Metal ore mining consuming the greatest amount (298 GL or 61%) of the water consumed by this industry.

In 2009–10, the Electricity, gas, water and waste services industry was the largest extractor of water from the environment, taking 49,793 GL. However, because 99.7% of this is in-stream use for hydro-electric power generation, the industries only actually consumed 297 GL or 2% of Australia's total water consumption.

Total water consumption in Australia fell by 28% between 2004–05 and 2009–10, from 18,767 GL to 13,476 GL, with household water consumption falling by 11% to 1,868 GL over the same time period. The decline in water consumption over this time period is indicative of reduced rainfall and drought conditions affecting water availability, particularly in southern and eastern parts of Australia.

In 2008–09, there was a large difference in the average amount paid for supplied water by different parts of the economy – households on average paid $1.93 per 1,000 litres (kL) and agricultural businesses $0.12 per kL.


http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/1301.0~2012~Main%20Features~Water~279

I wonder if it is similar in the US?

We've certainly had an issue here with the type of agriculture we support. Basically we act as if we live in Europe, only our climate is harsher and less predicatable and the impact of current farming methods much more profound. If you look up the link and see the graph on what kinds of agriculture use the most water, its clearly meat/dairy production.

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Wednesday, May 21, 2014 5:42 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


From the same source as above on cattle grazing.

Quote:

Grazing accounts for just over half of all land use. Environmental issues associated with sheep and cattle grazing include habitat loss, surface soil loss, salinity, and soil and water quality issues. Drought condition in 2002–03 exacerbated soil loss, leading to the highest dust storm activity since the 1960s (Endnote 1).

Vast areas of native vegetation have been cleared since Europeans first settled in Australia in 1788.

Since 1990, although land clearing has continued, the rate of forest land conversion has decreased by more than one-third or 182.6 thousand hectares. The figures do not distinguish between the clearance of native or non-native vegetation.

The clearance of native vegetation is a significant threat to terrestrial biodiversity. Other threats to biodiversity include deterioration of soil and water quality, increased prevalence of dryland salinity, the spread of weeds and feral pests and climate change.

Australia's biodiversity is unique and globally significant, with Australia being home to many endemic plants and animals, that is, they are found nowhere else in the world. Australia is recognised as one of only 17 'mega-diverse' countries, with ecosystems of great biological significance. This group of mega-diverse countries covers less than 10% of the global surface, but supports more than 70% of the earth's biological diversity.

Land clearing also has implications for greenhouse gas emissions. Refer to pages on greenhouse gases in the Atmosphere section.



With a bit of snipping...

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Thursday, May 22, 2014 5:58 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity




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Saturday, May 24, 2014 1:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


G
Quote:

So... what I said 50 posts ago - check.
There is a difference between "not believing" and "disbelieving". Belief automatically accepts that a person (or tenet) is always right, and disbelief automatically assumes that a person (or tenet) is wrong. Whatever happened to evaluation??

MAGONS
Thanks for the info. I wonder if there is equivalent data here.

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Saturday, May 24, 2014 1:25 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I think G is soft trolling here. Move along....



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Saturday, May 24, 2014 1:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh, OK. Thanks!

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Saturday, May 24, 2014 9:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
In Signym's case, I'm curious why Signym goes from one Large event to another and tries to explain them very diligently and with some great deal of effort. It's as if she HAS to explain them. Why? What motivates her brain to work that way? Please no snarky replies like, "'cuz she's a responsible citizen!" There's something else.


It's something that comes naturally with a scientific or engineering mindset.
Always trying to MAKE SENSE of things which often, due to human involvement... don't.

Me, welllll, my thought process is more villainous mad-science, cause the first damn thought to pop into my head is always "How can I weaponize this"?
Often with downright hilarious mental contortions and imagery, some of which I might be inclined to share.

But anyways, it's the *NATURE* of a scientific mindset to inspect, analyse, investigate - my ex gives me some flak for the fact that when watching a new show I feel the need to pore over it down to the smallest little detail before letting go, stuff like that.

-F

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Saturday, May 24, 2014 9:52 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I think G is soft trolling here. Move along....



"Soft trolling" great phrase, never heard it before, but no. Is it so much to ask to have people read and understand someone's posts? Wouldn't that be a kind of soft trolling? Ignoring the substance of what others say? You admit yourself that you don't understand what I type, and yet when I offer an explanation you disappear, no answer, which is far more interesting to me than "Kiev might or might not be doing xyz."
I'm more interested in that other kind of discussion - one that tries to understand why people post what they do and believe the way they do - more than the threads that try and speculate, say they know what will happen in x political/world event. I'm curious why Chris and AU and Jongs (and formally Niki) have the posting relationship they have had for so many years. One that seems unchanged, frustrating, counter productive and yet could go on as long as all 3 are posting.



I didn't respond any further in the other thread because I began to feel as if you were trolling. ie Trying to provoke a negative response. I've seen you do it in a couple more threads to others....

Have your fun, I'm off to read a good book.

Night all

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Saturday, May 24, 2014 11:33 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I'm more interested in that other kind of discussion - one that tries to understand why people post what they do and believe the way they do - more than the threads that try and speculate, say they know what will happen in x political/world event. I'm curious why Chris and AU and Jongs (and formally Niki) have the posting relationship they have had for so many years. One that seems unchanged, frustrating, counter productive and yet could go on as long as all 3 are posting.
In Signym's case, I'm curious why Signym goes from one Large event to another and tries to explain them very diligently and with some great deal of effort. It's as if she HAS to explain them. Why? What motivates her brain to work that way? Please no snarky replies like, "'cuz she's a responsible citizen!" There's something else.



G, this is a topic that I find irrelevant, so much so that I will probably not post more than two or three posts on the point, and only just as far as I think I need to to make my point clear, whether your grok it or not.

I would think that WHY I post what I post is extremely clear: We live in a real and consequential world, one in which we will probably die off like so many bacteria in a petri dish because we failed to pay attention to what we were doing and it's long-term effect on us. We are, presumably, an intelligent species which means we are, presumably, able to perceive our mistakes, learn from them, and moderate our actions accordingly. But when presented with uncomfortable observations, most people not only fail to think about and discuss them, they actively retreat.

I find your focus on the "why" of people's postings to be somewhat myopic. I could describe to WHY I think people post the way they do, but that misses the point. But I will give you my interpretation of you: You must be terribly comfortable. Wealthy enough not to worry about the future, because you feel your future is already assured. So ideas like- IF we don't respond effectively to population growth and global climate change in the next twenty years, we're screwed - don't have any impact. You apparently can't imagine anything really changing, and so you feel free to focus on irrelevant issues.

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Saturday, May 24, 2014 12:22 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I find your focus on the "why" of people's postings to be somewhat myopic. I could describe to WHY I think people post the way they do, but that misses the point. But I will give you my interpretation of you: You must be terribly comfortable. Wealthy enough not to worry about the future, because you feel your future is already assured. So ideas like- IF we don't respond effectively to population growth and global climate change in the next twenty years, we're screwed - don't have any impact. You apparently can't imagine anything really changing, and so you feel free to focus on irrelevant issues.



Climate change, I give you.

But this thing about population growth keeps popping up.

Global fertility rates are 2.55 according to Wikipedia, and there's a downward trend. In the words of Hans Rosling, we have reached "peak child", there are about as many children in the world right now as there will be in the future. Basically, replacement rate has been all but achieved.

Yes, these children will also have children, and they in turn, and add to our current number to reach about 10 billion, but that is likely to be it.

Short of telling the people already alive today that they cannot have ANY children, or just one, which is either unenforcable or bound to be tied up with serious problems down the road (sex selection, as in China and India), there is not much we can do about that number. That's an inevitable but limited population growth we cannot realistically affect.

The thing we can and should do is simply to encourage the global trend that has already been happening. The only thing that leads to fewer children is pulling people out of poverty and putting girls in schools, and while - YES - climate change will affect how well we achieve those goals globally, we've been on a decent path so far.

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Saturday, May 24, 2014 12:48 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


7 billion people is already too much- we're well beyond the capacity of the earth to recycle our carbon dioxide and nitrogen. We are PRESENTLY in another Great Extinction, one we've created ourselves. 10 billion is uninhabitable. If we MUST have children, stop at one. Whether we think it's achievable or not, given our cultures and habits*, it will be achieved for us.

*Just another failed intelligence test. I guess we're not a very intelligent species after all.

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Saturday, May 24, 2014 1:09 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
7 billion people is already too much- we're well beyond the capacity of the earth to recycle our carbon dioxide and nitrogen. We are PRESENTLY in another Great Extinction, one we've created ourselves. 10 billion is uninhabitable. If we MUST have children, stop at one. Whether we think it's achievable or not, given our cultures and habits*, it will be achieved for us.

*Just another failed intelligence test. I guess we're not a very intelligent species after all.



There's wishful thinking and then there is what is actually achievable.

Trying to enforce a no/one-child policy without acknowledging cultures and habits is going to lead to different problems and instability further down the line, endangering everything else that we may achieve in the meantime. Not to mention, I just seriously doubt it's even workable on a global scale.

Doing what HAS worked (girl education, reducing poverty) has had and will continue to have results.

And 7 billion is currently working, 10 billion can also. What is not working is how a fraction of that number are using current resources and polluting at outrageous rates. THAT's the issue. A big chunk of that 7 billion right now are using very, very little of the energy that while a smaller chunk is using a huge amount. Adding another couple of billion to the poorest, as they are the ones having 5+ kids, is actually putting only a disproportionately small increase on our current emissions.

Trying to adjust technology and living conditions on a global average that provides both a lack of poverty and a responsible use of energy among that 10 billion is a reasonable goal.

Pretending we can prevent the 10 billion - even with scary "Great Extinction" threats - is not going to happen. It's unrealistic. Not without using an amount of oppressive force that would end up destabilizing everything to the point of chaos. Because cultures and habits, while you may find them inconvenient, are a reality.

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Saturday, May 24, 2014 1:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Changing the wealth distribution is equally unachievable, because accepting the current massively centralized power structure is just as much cultural and ingrained as having (too many) children.

So, what I'm hearing you say is that it is impossible for people to unbury their heads from their asses long enough to take a good look around, think to themselves Yoiks! This isn't working!, and try something new? In other words, we're wedded to our habit-driven, culture-driven, propaganda-driven way of thinking, even if it takes us over a cliff?




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Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:07 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, what I'm hearing you say is that it is impossible for people to unbury their heads from their asses long enough to take a good look around, think to themselves Yoiks! This isn't working!, and try something new? In other words, we're wedded to our habit-driven, culture-driven, propaganda-driven way of thinking, even if it takes us over a cliff?



No, what I am saying is that force doesn't work well in eliminating those cultures and habits. And that is the only way you could even try to implement something like a no/one-child policy world-wide within a time frame that is shorter than the current downward trend.

I've mentioned several times that there ARE things that can change how many children people have: not being terribly poor and sending their girls to school. When their kids stop dying before age 5, people stop having so many kids. Because then they can safely choose to do so.

That's what has been happening for decades. It is workable, it is effective and it is achieved by making things better for everyone. Not by dictating from the top down without considering how these choices are made.

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Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:38 PM

OONJERAH



Preachin' to the choir, Sig?

Most of the people who read & post on this board are aware & responsible.
I, personally, am not denying the problems and am not driving "us" over
a cliff. Indeed, I'm the one who says, "Yeah, we're in trouble. Let's talk
solutions."

AgentRouka is talking about the real situation we have now and changes
that are needed to turn the trend. That's constructive. He wants to em-
power the people so that they have choices.

G is checking out the human mind, its processes. He looks at what moti-
vates us, why do we do what we do? Psychology. If you wanted to change
the behavior of people worldwide, you'd need to understand our psychology.
How to Guide the masses (manipulate is sort of derogatory) ... Great
leaders knew how.

These are constructive comments.

Where do the masses in America get their guidance? TV, I guess.



... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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Saturday, May 24, 2014 6:56 PM

CHRISISALL



Here's a little song I wrote
You might want to sing it note for note
Don't worry be happy
We may be having climate trouble
When you worry you make it double
Don't worry, be happy

CHORUS

Ain't got no place to lay your head
Flooding waters took your bed
Don't worry, be happy
The farms are dry 'cause Summer ran late
No food your tummy to sate
Don't worry, be happy
(Look at me I am happy)

CHORUS

Ain't got no cash, ain't got no job
The martial law can make you sob
But don't worry be happy
'Cause when you worry
Your face will frown
Al Gore brings everybody down
So don't worry, be happy
Don't worry, be happy now

CHORUS
(World will soon pass, celebrate it)
I'm not worried, I'm happy




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