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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
What are America's interests?
Friday, May 8, 2020 11:23 AM
SIGNYM
I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.
Quote:SIGNYM:I've provided MY list about what I think we need, to seed the discussion. It's not the end-all and be-all of possibilities. SECOND:Your list is 3 years old: March 5, 2017 www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60986&mid=1025569#1025569 Ask yourself why none of the tasks on your list have been finished. Once you discover who has been very efficiently vetoing/roadblocking/sabotaging/suing/underfunding/delaying your plan, you need to decide what to do about them. Once you've done it, then your plan can start moving forward. Or you can take it easy, do as little as possible, and give up.
Friday, May 8, 2020 11:34 AM
Quote:Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK: Are you going to argue that wages have not been stagnant in the last 20 years and have not even gone up with inflation? Are you going to argue it's untrue that health insurance has become unaffordable for most people, and that homeowners insurance isn't far behind? Are you going to argue that a college education has not become a life-long burden for most future adults to pay off the rest of their lives? Are you going to argue it's untrue that credit card interest rates are more than double what they were 20 years ago despite the fact that the FED interest rate is near zero? Are you going to argue it's untrue that after outsourcing most of our manufacturing jobs overseas we have now manufactured most of our tech jobs overseas and the majority of jobs left for us to fight over are low paying service jobs? Are you going to argue it's not true that nearly 80% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck in 2020? If the answer to any of those questions is no. Then plug them into the graphs and use your goddamned brain for once instead of needing a fucking link to do your thinking for you. Do Right, Be Right. :)
Friday, May 8, 2020 11:44 AM
6IXSTRINGJACK
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: SIX, ask yourself WHY this is true.
Quote:So, what incentives are at play that caused this to happen?
Quote: And what incentives do you think should be embedded in society instead?
Friday, May 8, 2020 11:53 AM
Quote:SECOND: Is there anything left that would bring liberals and conservatives together to demand some kind of sacrifice from the American public? And even if that happened, would the public respond? I’m starting to wonder. CC: Sure, there definitely could be. But not with this orange sh*t head in office. He's a divider, scorched earth sales person who values winning and subservience (I was going to say loyalty, but he doesn't give a sh*t about that - only what it might bring him). He's has done more to divide this country than any other leader in the history of this planet could.
Friday, May 8, 2020 12:16 PM
Quote:SIGNYM: SIX, ask yourself WHY this is true. Simple. Collective Greed and Collective Stupidity. Humans are great as individuals, but terrible as groups.
Quote:SIX: If it wasn't the Boomers, it would have been GenX. Be that as it may, it was the Boomers who raided the economy without any thought as to what the future costs were. And here we are.
Quote:SIX: Sitting on the sidelines does not excuse your behavior. Especially when you reaped the rewards.
Quote:SIGNY: So, what incentives are at play that caused this to happen? SIX: Money. 'nuff said. SIGNY: And what incentives do you think should be embedded in society instead? SIX: We could start by teaching kids how to save a dollar and balance a checkbook in school instead of cramming Algebra and Trigonometry that they're never going to use down their throats. That might be a good start. Maybe have some leadership that at least pretends like debt is something that we shouldn't be getting into and setting a good example? But it really doesn't matter anymore. Too little, too late.
Friday, May 8, 2020 12:28 PM
Quote:Originally posted by 1KIKI: To answer, I think one needs to delve into 'what are people's interests?' We are people before we're citizens. But at the start I have to reject nearly all arguments based on 'human nature'. For just about every supposed rule about human nature, I can provide many exceptions. And studies of non-monetary cultures still in existence today show that there's no correlation between environment, technology, means of survival (hunting, fishing, gathering, ad hoc agriculture) and resources v social or economic organization, or the reason why cultures give to answer why they do what they do. Groups of people do what they do because that's what they tell themselves people do. (And people who don't do what they do are also defined as either not people, or not proper people - they're some lesser existence.) That said, no peoples set their infants out to survive on their own - all peoples understand the need to care for the young. And the young are demanding of attention and interaction! or they grow up severely mentally stunted. No peoples live as isolated individuals (like bears or tigers). No peoples live without language. And no peoples live without at least rudimentary tools and technology. But even things we assume are 'natural', like nursing mothers caring for their infants, aren't universal as they can be substituted with other mothers or animals that provide milk. Nuclear families are not the norm across peoples. Pair bonding is optional. Even the role for males is up for grabs. All that needs to happen is that males don't exist in fatal competition for resources with females and offspring. It's not how 'fit' the males are that determines species survival - sterility beats virility. But it's not even fertitliy that determines species survival. Those offspring need to survive long enough themselves to have offspring of their own that then survive ... in at least replacement numbers. If not, the species dwindles and dies. Offspring mortality beats fertility. (As a separate group, the Spartans ignored that and met their demise.) Also, technology makes up for a lot of human frailties. Technology allows human survival at numbers greater than the immediate resource limits. So for me, the questions are - what kind of technology do we want, and, how do we want to arrange ourselves to ensure survival? It's pretty much up for grabs, I think.
Friday, May 8, 2020 12:32 PM
1KIKI
Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.
Quote: https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2018/03/16/the-graying-of-wealth/#76d3ec7c302d Faring the best were the 75+—an age bracket largely occupied by the Silent Generation (born 1925 to 1942). This group experienced a 32% increase in median household net worth and a 60% increase in mean net worth. Today, the net worth of a typical retiree is $264,750. This amount shrinks moving down the age ladder: The Silent hold roughly 1.3 times the amount of wealth as Boomers, more than twice that of Xers, and 23 times that of Millennials. One reason why the Silent Generation fares so well in median comparisons is that its wealth is more evenly distributed than younger generations (i.e., its Gini coefficient is lower). One quick indicator of inequality is the ratio of mean to median. Among 75+ households, the ratio is 4.0. Among younger age brackets, it rises—to a peak of 6.2 and 5.8 among 55-64 and 45-54 households, respectively.
Friday, May 8, 2020 12:52 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: So in your opinion, technology is the defining feature of our society?
Quote: But earlier you said it wasn't, that people behaved the way they behaved because of the stories they told themselves about how people are. So I don't understand your point, I guess. Please elucidate! ----------- Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake #WEARAMASK
Friday, May 8, 2020 1:22 PM
Quote:Originally posted by 1KIKI: JACK is basing his spiel off of phony numbers and a serious case of entitlement. He think that just because there are a lot of boomers who've worked 45+ years out of their lifespan that they shouldn't have those earnings. ... Or that he should be entitled to everything they've worked decades for RIGHT NOW!!! What he can't admit is that average wage from 1975 (the approximate year the middle of the boomer generation entered the workforce) - adjusted for inflation - is nearly exactly on par with 2019 .
Friday, May 8, 2020 1:36 PM
Friday, May 8, 2020 5:49 PM
Saturday, December 31, 2022 8:03 PM
Sunday, January 1, 2023 1:17 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: AND NOW ... to America's interests. Definitionally, I argue that "America's interests" are Americans' interests. Not the interests of the vanishingly tiny but extremely powerful elite, and not the interest of some nation far-away, or of non-citizens within our borders, but the collective interests of the overwhelming majority of American citizens. Now, we can look at this from the microscopic scale: 1) By looking at the interests of the various interest-groups that we have been so unfortunately divided into and seeing where they overlap and generalizing outward from there, 2) Or we can look at this from a theoretical viewpoint and narrow down to specifics. I THINK THE FIRST APPROACH IS UNLIKELY TO BE SUCCESSFUL BY ITSELF. For example, if we start out with the idea that Black Lives Matter, and Women's Pay Matters, and Gay Marriage Matters, what we will wind up is with the truism that ... well, gosh, we should all be treated fairly and equally. Who could argue with that??? But we will STILL be fighting over the scarce resource of "jobs" (albeit more fairly!) and never get to the realization that maybe what we ALL need are better-paying, consequential jobs. So I'm going to approach this from a theoretical POV, and start with WHAT DO HUMANS NEED? and work my way from there. I hope you come along for the discussion, I've ended my trolling (which is really boring). Unless YOU start trolling again, in which case this will be a good discussion, spoiled.
Sunday, January 1, 2023 7:31 AM
SECOND
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: Ok, so how about a re-start? Maybe we could have a REAL discussion this time? It's been pending since 2017. Edited to add: SECOND, please note that Trump isn't President. Neither is Putin. Biden* is. And this isn't Russia, or Ukraine. Or the poor benighted nations to our south, or the mideast. It's the United States of America. I don't intend to bag on Biden* (altho I could!) If you can't unfixate your mind from Putin or Trump, please don't bother posting bc that's not the topic of this thread. ----------- Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE someone poor - William Blake
Sunday, January 1, 2023 8:34 AM
Sunday, January 1, 2023 4:18 PM
Quote:Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK: Nope. -------------------------------------------------- Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.
Sunday, January 1, 2023 5:54 PM
Quote:Originally posted by second: Quote:Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK: Nope. -------------------------------------------------- Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.Fireflyfans.net is place of wildly divergent views. America is a divergent place. Congress is a divergent place. What happens at such places? Today's Dilbert comic covers that: Boss of Dilbert: I have created an advisory council of people who have wildly divergent views. Dilbert: Has an advisory council of people who have wildly divergent views every accomplished anything? Boss: I asked them the same thing. Opinions were mixed. Dilbert: How do they ever agree on anything? Boss: They don’t need to agree. I still make all the decisions. Dilbert: Oh. You mean you are using them as cover for doing whatever you want to do. Boss: I was hoping it wasn’t obvious. Dilbert: We can pretend it isn’t. https://dilbert.com/strip/2023-01-01 The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two
Sunday, January 1, 2023 10:18 PM
Monday, January 2, 2023 3:51 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: Ok, so how about a re-start? Maybe we could have a REAL discussion this time? It's been pending since 2017. Edited to add: SECOND, please note that Trump isn't President. Neither is Putin. Biden* is. And this isn't Russia, or Ukraine. Or the poor benighted nations to our south, or the mideast. It's the United States of America. I don't intend to bag on Biden* (altho I could!) If you can't unfixate your mind from Putin or Trump, please don't bother posting bc that's not the topic of this thread. SECOND: Instead of the usual list of problems, lets pick one problem: the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. The Democrats in Congress have gone about as far as they can go in solving that problem: $369 billion in Energy Security and Climate Change programs over the next 10 years. When $369 billion is divided by 334 million US citizens and divided by 10 years and divided by 12 months in a year, that is about $10 per month. https://www.democrats.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/inflation_reduction_act_one_page_summary.pdf Why can't the Democrats in Congress do more? Here are two reasons why they can't: Reason 1: There was a time – a recent time – when concern about the environment was relatively bipartisan, not a cultural flashpoint.
Quote: SECOND: blah blah blah...
Quote: SECOND: Reason 2: Why would people need excuses (see the above article) for not fixing the climate change problem? People say they take climate change seriously, but if you put an actual dollar figure on fixing the problem, even $10 per month is too much for 70% of the population. Democrats in Congress passed a law in 2022 to fight climate change and the cost will be about $10 per month. That is totally amazing! $1 per month is the only amount that a majority supports. To solve the actual problem would cost in the area of $200 per month, but that can't become a law against overwhelming opposition by 90% of Americans. How Much Would It Cost To End Climate Change? https://www.globalgiving.org/learn/cost-to-end-climate-change/
Monday, January 2, 2023 4:29 AM
Monday, January 2, 2023 7:11 AM
Monday, January 2, 2023 12:52 PM
Quote:Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK: What are America's interests? If Congress votes for it, it's likely not in America's interest. If Congress votes against it, it's probably in America's interest. The only thing that got strong bipartisan support in my lifetime that passed in the Senate was ending Daylight Savings Time. But they went right ahead and didn't even bother voting on it in the House so Biden* could sign it into law. Now it's a new year, and the Senate would have to vote to push it through again so the House could just sit on it another year and it never gets done. That just about sums up how bad the situation is. -------------------------------------------------- Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.
Monday, January 2, 2023 1:09 PM
THG
Quote:Originally posted by Wishimay: FREE WI-FI FOR EVERYONE!!!
Monday, January 2, 2023 1:11 PM
Monday, January 2, 2023 1:13 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Wishimay: FREE WI-FI FOR EVERYONE!!! THUGR: You nailed it Brenda.
Monday, January 2, 2023 1:15 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: Quote:Originally posted by THG: Quote:Originally posted by Wishimay: FREE WI-FI FOR EVERYONE!!! You nailed it Brenda. T . WISHIMAY and BRENDA are entirely separate posters. WISHIMAY lives in Indiana and BRENDA lives in British Columbia.
Quote:Originally posted by THG: Quote:Originally posted by Wishimay: FREE WI-FI FOR EVERYONE!!! You nailed it Brenda. T
Monday, January 2, 2023 10:17 PM
Monday, January 2, 2023 10:57 PM
Tuesday, January 3, 2023 1:25 PM
Quote:Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK: Right now, I'm not worried about external threats to our country and our Democracy. I'm worried about the enemy within. Not only the powerful, mostly within the Democrat ranks and media, but the easily brainwashed half of the country that is giving them their power. -------------------------------------------------- Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.
Tuesday, January 3, 2023 1:50 PM
Tuesday, January 3, 2023 2:05 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: Quote:Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK: Right now, I'm not worried about external threats to our country and our Democracy. I'm worried about the enemy within. Not only the powerful, mostly within the Democrat ranks and media, but the easily brainwashed half of the country that is giving them their power. -------------------------------------------------- Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it. Well, yes, I agree with you. But I'm grnding on this bc I don't want to miss assumptions. ----------- Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE someone poor - William Blake
Wednesday, January 11, 2023 12:20 PM
Quote:Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK: Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: Quote:Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK: Right now, I'm not worried about external threats to our country and our Democracy. I'm worried about the enemy within. Not only the powerful, mostly within the Democrat ranks and media, but the easily brainwashed half of the country that is giving them their power. -------------------------------------------------- Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it. Well, yes, I agree with you. But I'm grnding on this bc I don't want to miss assumptions. ----------- Pity would be no more, If we did not MAKE someone poor - William Blake This is NUMBER ONE. Period. It's not even worth discussing how we even start fixing the country until this gets dealt with because any forward progress would be immediately overwhelmed by the ceaseless backsliding we've been doing with Democrats in charge of things. It'd be like trying to plug holes in a dam with your finger while everybody ignores the giant crack that's about to burst right down the center of it. -------------------------------------------------- Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.
Wednesday, January 11, 2023 12:36 PM
Wednesday, January 11, 2023 1:55 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: Just to tie into a previous thread I created (How society is like an organism) I used to think each society was like an individual organism: it is born, it grows, feeds, shits, transports food and waste internally, maintains itself, and even colonizes other areas etc. It has specialized units (cells, individuals) that do different things: some produce energy, some turn resources into useful items, some transport food or waste, some carry information, some are cancerous and grow out of control and don't return anything to the whole. But if it doesn't respond appropriately to changes in its surroundings (the political, economic and physical environment) it dies.
Sunday, January 15, 2023 4:06 PM
Sunday, January 15, 2023 5:23 PM
Sunday, January 15, 2023 5:35 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: It's a question that I've asked over and over, that nobody has answered. For the purposes of definition, "America" is the land inside the borders of the self-defined nation-state of the United States of America, and "Americans" are citizens of that nation.
Sunday, January 15, 2023 8:13 PM
Monday, January 16, 2023 1:15 AM
Saturday, September 30, 2023 7:50 AM
JAYNEZTOWN
Saturday, September 30, 2023 9:11 AM
Wednesday, October 4, 2023 9:46 AM
Wednesday, October 4, 2023 11:54 AM
Sunday, December 24, 2023 2:26 PM
Wednesday, January 3, 2024 10:25 PM
Saturday, January 13, 2024 8:10 AM
Saturday, January 13, 2024 8:31 AM
Quote:Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN: Gonzalo Lira?
Monday, July 22, 2024 5:02 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: When BUSH said he was going in to Iraq to prevent the use/ deployment/ development (variously described) of WMD, I knew it was a feckless war. THe reason is because there were NO credible WMD in Iraq. When he said that Iraq would become a unified, secular, democratic state .... it took me a bit to figure out whether that would work or not, but eventually I figures NOT
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