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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
70 Years Since Hiroshima
Friday, August 14, 2015 11:49 AM
SIGNYM
I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.
Quote:Originally posted by kpo: Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: Yes, we know: It's all Nazi propaganda!! BWAHAHAHAHA! No, the Nazi propaganda was YOUR contribution (thanks again for that by the way), but luckily before you came to the thread there was a discussion on Dresden, Hamburg etc. that was more sensible. It's not personal. It's just war.
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: Yes, we know: It's all Nazi propaganda!! BWAHAHAHAHA!
Friday, August 14, 2015 1:35 PM
SECOND
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two
Friday, August 14, 2015 2:11 PM
Friday, August 14, 2015 3:30 PM
RAHLMACLAREN
"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: Unlike you, I don't condone killing Ukrainians en masse. I just don't condone it when they do it to others.
Friday, August 14, 2015 3:53 PM
Friday, August 14, 2015 6:07 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: Stop thinking with your hormones. Use your brains once in a while, if at all possible.
Quote:Unless speed is considered so important that we are willing to accept less than the best preparation and more than minimum casualties, I believe that the long range interests of the U.S. will be better served if we continue to isolate Japan & to destroy Jap forces & resources by naval and air attack.
Friday, August 14, 2015 6:37 PM
Quote:You mean the Holocaust? Where Germans exterminated more of their own citizens than their enemies (they created) did?
Friday, August 14, 2015 8:13 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: The question is, in fighting such an enemy, what depths of gratuitous violence are YOU willing to countenance?
Friday, August 14, 2015 11:15 PM
Quote:Originally posted by G: Quote:Originally posted by RahlMaclaren: Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: Unlike you, I don't condone killing Ukrainians en masse. I just don't condone it when they do it to others. Sure. Prove that G did. When. Where. Cite it. One exact post. For my curiosity. Thanks Rahl! She can't of course site any such thing, she can only keep her lie to herself going by creating another fiction, or even more lame, some flimsy negative: "well he never said he didn't want to kill them..." Her denial to herself and to the board knows no bounds.
Quote:Originally posted by RahlMaclaren: Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: Unlike you, I don't condone killing Ukrainians en masse. I just don't condone it when they do it to others. Sure. Prove that G did. When. Where. Cite it. One exact post. For my curiosity.
Quote:"You concede that the USAF bombed and firebombed much of Japan. You concede that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not serve to "shorten the war", but was instead a warning shot across the Russian bow."
Saturday, August 15, 2015 1:51 AM
Quote:Originally posted by RahlMaclaren: Unless people go back and edit their posts, no one specifically mentioned in this thread (as of this time stamp) Operation Meetinghouse, the firebombing of the city of Tokyo, which killed more people than Hiroshima. By that ITL (Insane Troll Logic) we are all for it. Except for me, since I just mentioned it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo
Saturday, August 15, 2015 8:50 AM
Saturday, August 15, 2015 10:15 AM
Quote:Originally posted by RahlMaclaren: Also, a hell of a lot more cities than just Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki.
Saturday, August 15, 2015 10:42 AM
Quote:"If you're not with us, you're against us." If you're not against it, you must be for it. (This twisted logic seems familiar somehow. Like akin to something from 2002.)
Saturday, August 15, 2015 11:33 AM
Quote:The question is, in fighting such an enemy, what depths of gratuitous violence are YOU willing to countenance? -SIGNY There were revenge killings of Germans all the way into 1950. The official positions of the German government and the German Red Cross are that the death toll resulting from expulsions ranged from 2 to 2.5 million civilians. At least 473,013 are confirmed deaths of Germans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_%281944%E2%80%9350%29#Research_tracing_individual_fates_by_the_German_Red_Cross Ordinary people killed German civilians. It was payback.-SECOND
Saturday, August 15, 2015 10:19 PM
MAGONSDAUGHTER
Quote:Originally posted by second: Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: Dr. Strangelove: Major Kong Rides The Bomb 1080p Major Kong is a rube, a hick, the wrong character to choose for explaining the decision to nuke Hiroshima. The man really making the decisions about what day bombs drop is not Truman. It is General Curtis LeMay. LeMay's trademark cigar is stuck in the mouth of General Jack D. Ripper in Dr Strangelove (1964) http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/DrStrangelove True that. But not as symbolic as Kubrick having a cowboy ride the bomb on the way down.
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: Dr. Strangelove: Major Kong Rides The Bomb 1080p
Sunday, August 16, 2015 7:33 AM
KPO
Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.
Quote:Sure. Prove that G did. When. Where. Cite it. One exact post. For my curiosity.
Sunday, August 16, 2015 12:36 PM
1KIKI
Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.
Tuesday, August 18, 2015 8:50 AM
Tuesday, August 18, 2015 8:57 AM
Quote:Unusual for a politician to suggest that nukes solve foreign policy problems.
Tuesday, August 18, 2015 10:26 AM
Quote:Originally posted by kpo: Quote:Unusual for a politician to suggest that nukes solve foreign policy problems. It's hard to argue that it didn't, in 1945. It's not personal. It's just war.
Tuesday, August 18, 2015 11:52 AM
Quote:Nukes aren't the magical solution to foreign policy problems.
Quote:The disadvantages of nuking Japan were that Truman made public the super-secret weapon and launched a very expensive nuclear arms race. Neither were to America's advantage.
Quote:You can't truthfully use the excuse of nukes saving American lives from an invasion of Japan (but you can if you want to use demagoguery) because the Navy admirals were opposed
Tuesday, August 18, 2015 5:56 PM
Quote:There was, as far as I can tell, very little (if any) untruth in the video. All of the facts lined up. How does that make it propaganda??
Quote:Historian Götz Bergander, who was himself an eyewitness of the raids, found no reports on strafing for 13–15 February, neither by any of the pilots nor by the German military and police. He asserted in Dresden im Luftkrieg (1977) that only a few tales of civilians being strafed were reliable in details, and all were related to the daylight attack on 14 February. He concluded that some memory of eyewitnesses was real, but that it had misinterpreted the firing in an airfight as being deliberately aimed at people on the ground.[67] In 2000, historian Helmut Schnatz found that there was an explicit order to RAF pilots not to strafe civilians on the way back home from Dresden. He also reconstructed timelines with the result that strafing would have been almost impossible due to lack of time and fuel.[68] Frederick Taylor in Dresden (2004), basing most of his analysis on the work of Bergander and Schnatz, concludes that no strafing took place, although some stray bullets from an aerial dog fight may have hit the ground and been mistaken for strafing by those in the vicinity.
Wednesday, August 19, 2015 1:52 AM
Quote:The fact that it comes from a neo-Nazi website is not enough for you?
Quote:Propaganda mixes facts, opinionated and unsubstantiated claims, omission of key details that would contradict the 'message', and outright fiction. So pointing out that the video is to a large extent factual is not enough, you need to say 'the video was impartial' and 'it told all sides of the story'
Quote:When the video claims that the Allied bombing campaign's whole strategy was to kill as many German men, women and children as possible that's not a 'fact'.
Quote:As for 'outright lies': Your propaganda video seems to repeat the thoroughly debunked myth about civilians being strafed by fighters during/after the air raids. From Wiki:
Wednesday, August 19, 2015 9:07 AM
Quote:Does BBC tell the Russian side of the story?
Quote:KPO: The fact that it comes from a neo-Nazi website is not enough for you? SIGNY: No. I don't judge the content by where it comes from, but by the content. Even evil people had insightful things to say.
Quote:Well, I once again quote Churchill "German cities will be subject to an ordeal the like of which has never been experienced by a country in continuity, severity, and magnitude ..
Quote:I read WIKI< Civilians said they were strafed. What WIKI said was that they have have mistaken stray bullets from dogfights as deliberate strafing.
Quote:Now, think about that- what is terrorism except the application of violence to terrorize a civilian population to achieve a political goal
Wednesday, August 19, 2015 9:40 AM
Wednesday, August 19, 2015 9:57 AM
Quote:Does BBC tell the Russian side of the story? -SIGNY Yes, all the time.
Quote:But you've misunderstood me. I should have been clearer. When I say 'telling all sides of the story' I mean reporting all the relevant facts, without omitting any. Not about giving equal airtime to different narratives and interpretations, some of which may be highly spurious and come from sources with a clear agenda - e.g. the Russian government.
Quote:KPO: The fact that it comes from a neo-Nazi website is not enough for you? SIGNY: No. I don't judge the content by where it comes from, but by the content. Even evil people had insightful things to say. KPO: That's incredibly foolish.
Quote:Well, I once again quote Churchill "German cities will be subject to an ordeal the like of which has never been experienced by a country in continuity, severity, and magnitude .." -SIGNY You are not quoting Churchill you're quoting the video. And the video is falsely quoting Churchill. The actual quote says: "German cities, harbours and centres of war production will be subjected to an ordeal the like of which has never been experienced by any country in continuity, severity or magnitude." This is what I mean by omitting key details that would tell a different story to the message being pushed. And the second bit of the quote "there are no lengths of violence to which we will not go" was said in a completely different speech (over a year later) and in a different context.
Quote:I read WIKI< Civilians said they were strafed. What WIKI said was that they have have mistaken stray bullets from dogfights as deliberate strafing.- SIGNY You're lying. You shouted loudly about the strafing outrage earlier in the thread, and you got it from the Nazi video. For example you talk specifically about people fleeing to parks, zoos and 'other open spaces' and then being strafed - this clearly comes from the video (@13:44); nothing is said like this in Wikipedia at all.=KPO
Quote:This is your video that 'lines up with the facts'. So. I have shown that the video comes from a neo-Nazi source
Quote:and is replete with lies. Are you going to disown it yet?
Quote:Now, think about that- what is terrorism except the application of violence to terrorize a civilian population to achieve a political goal-SIGNY I've already told you my problem with your definition of terrorism - it makes every tyrannical ruler, Stalin, Mugabe, Assad, Putin etc. a 'terrorist'.
Quote:It's not personal. It's just war.
Thursday, August 20, 2015 12:36 AM
Thursday, August 20, 2015 9:16 AM
Quote:Links please. I looked up that specific phrase, and I found it, word for word, in an earlier article
Quote:Because of time and fuel, it was judged that strafing wasn't part of the plan, but they may have been subject to stray bullets from a dogfight.
Quote:So, what are you trying to say - that every claim that the video makes is wrong? That Britain always behaved in the most morally correct fashion possible during WWII?
Quote:NO, IT MAKES EVERY RULER WHO KILLS CIVILIANS PURPOSELY TERRORISTS
Quote:Well, that's very Hitlery of you
Thursday, August 20, 2015 9:50 AM
Quote:Originally posted by kpo: More lies. It's not personal. It's just war.
Thursday, August 20, 2015 12:37 PM
Quote:So the video lied about intentional strafing of civilians (and zoo animals), and you repeated those lies. Congratulations you've lost the argument.
Thursday, August 20, 2015 5:48 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: AND FURTHERMORE, by your own tagline you support pointless wartime killing. Experiencing any sort of sadness or horror at mass death ... well, that's for the faint of heart, and you are clearly above all that.
Friday, August 21, 2015 7:03 AM
Quote:I've said this many times, in many ways: ALL sources are biased. Every single one.
Quote:AND FURTHERMORE, by your own tagline you support pointless wartime killing. Experiencing any sort of sadness or horror at mass death ... well, that's for the faint of heart, and you are clearly above all that.
Quote:My MIL had to take shelter from strafing behind a horse-drawn cart (the horse was killed).
Friday, August 21, 2015 8:54 AM
Quote:Originally posted by kpo: Watching you having this conversation with yourself about my tagline is faintly entertaining.
Friday, August 21, 2015 12:08 PM
Quote:I've said this many times, in many ways: ALL sources are biased. Every single one.-SIGNY That's not saying very much. Of course all journalism, history etc. contains bias. It's written by humans, duh. But bias is one thing, journalistic standards and integrity are another thing, and deliberate misinformation and propaganda from dictatorial regimes is yet another thing. When talking about media, no wells of information are 100% pure. But some are better than others. And some are deliberately laced with hallucinogenic drugs. Your propensity to gulp from the wells of Kremlin propaganda and other extreme internet propaganda, like this Nazi video
Quote: But some are better than others
Quote:AND FURTHERMORE, by your own tagline you support pointless wartime killing. Experiencing any sort of sadness or horror at mass death ... well, that's for the faint of heart, and you are clearly above all that. -SIGNY Watching you having this conversation with yourself about my tagline is faintly entertaining.
Quote:My MIL had to take shelter from strafing behind a horse-drawn cart (the horse was killed).- SIGNY In what geographic location was this?
Quote:It's not personal. It's just war.=KPO
Friday, August 21, 2015 1:04 PM
Quote:On Monday German Chancellor Angela Merkel will host a summit in Berlin about the conflict in eastern Ukraine. French President Francois Hollande and Ukraine leader Petro Poroshenko are due to attend, but not Russian President Vladimir Putin. So how is the relationship between Mrs Merkel and Mr Putin? They are the leaders of two of the most powerful countries in the world, they both grew up in communist states and they both had their careers transformed by its collapse. But that's where the similarity ends. One leader is a submarine-faring, bare-chested action-man, whose show-off, tough-guy image is intended to compensate for Russia's stalling economy, the head of a country accused of throwing its weight around and meddling militarily abroad. The daredevil antics go down well with many Russian voters, traditionally partial to a strong leader. Short on charisma But the televised wrestling and horse-back riding is seen as comic by Western journalists, who sniggered at the Austen Powers baddie images of Mr Putin emerging from the waters of Crimea in a mini-submarine. More "mid-life crisis red sports car" than "superpower leader", was the verdict internationally. The other spends her summer holidays hiking in an anorak, and leads a country terrified of showing just how powerful it has become - usually dragging France along to crisis summits so that no one can accuse Berlin of getting pushy. Unlike Russia, Germany in the past has often been accused of not doing enough with its power militarily - although, given how quickly the Nazi clichés have re-emerged during the Greek debt crisis, German reticence could now be seen as not entirely unjustified.
Saturday, August 22, 2015 7:38 PM
Quote: And then you moved the goalposts and said that it had to be MORE than substantially factually correct
Quote:you have now decided that a source has to be "better than others"
Saturday, August 22, 2015 10:08 PM
Sunday, August 23, 2015 10:27 AM
Quote:I have stated that some sources are better than others. You disagree? Maybe that's why you think it's fine to post videos from neo-Nazi websites.
Quote:Ha, I moved your goalposts. Boasting that your propaganda film has facts in it is pointless; all propaganda blends facts with lies - including this one.
Quote:And then there's his circular logic which goes round and round - if he thinks it's propaganda then there is no truth in it, and because there's no truth in it by definition, it's propaganda. Nowhere does he seem able to stack up claims against evidence to test them for veracity. Nowhere does he use the measure of factuality to judge a source. Instead he judges sources by some other criteria to determine their factuality.
Sunday, August 23, 2015 1:16 PM
Quote:Do you find praiseworthy the tactics used against Germany by the forces under command of Air Chief Marshal Arthur Harris? I don't. If you do, isn't now a good time to use those tactics, again? Pick a country that needs peace and begin firebombing.
Sunday, August 23, 2015 4:53 PM
Sunday, August 23, 2015 5:01 PM
Monday, August 24, 2015 1:59 AM
Monday, August 24, 2015 6:46 AM
Monday, August 24, 2015 7:26 AM
Quote:Originally posted by kpo: It's funny that the only reason Signy and kiki haven't called me a Nazi yet is because they've both been caught out being devoted fangirls to a neo-Nazi website. It's not personal. It's just war.
Quote:So Wrong for So Long - Why neoconservatives are never right. . . . The neoconservative worldview also exaggerates the efficacy of military force and downplays the value of diplomacy. Military force is an essential component of national power, of course, but neocons tend to see it as a magical tool that can accomplish all sorts of wonderful things (such as the creation of workable democracies) for which it is not really designed. In reality, military force is a crude instrument whose effects are hard to foresee and one which almost always produces unintended consequences (see under: Libya, Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan, etc.). So it was in Iraq, and the results of a direct military conflict with Iran would be equally unpredictable. Moreover, neocons believe military force is a supple tool that can be turned on and off like a spigot. If the United States uses force and things go badly, they seem to think the nation can just pull out quickly and live to fight another day. But that’s not how things work in the real world of politics: Once forces are committed, the military brass will demand the chance to win a clear victory, and politicians will worry about the nation’s prestige and their own political fortunes. The conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, and Somalia should remind us that it’s a lot easier to get into wars than it is to get out of them, but that lesson has been lost on most neoconservatives. Third, the neoconservatives have a simplistic and ahistorical view of democracy itself. They claim their main goal is spreading freedom and democracy (except for Palestinians, of course), but they have no theory to explain how this will happen or how toppling a foreign government with military force will magically cause democracy to emerge. Instead, they believe the desire to live in freedom is hardwired into human DNA, and all one has to do is remove the bad guys at the top. Once they are gone, the now-liberated population will forget past grievances, form political parties, embrace tolerance, line up for orderly elections, accept the resulting outcomes willingly, and offer grateful thanks to Uncle Sam. It would be nice if that Pollyannaish scenario were accurate, but such views betray near-total ignorance of the prerequisites for meaningful democracy and the actual history of democratic growth in the West itself. In fact, the development of liberal democracy was a long, contentious, imperfect, and often violent process in Western Europe and North America, and anyone familiar with that history would have known the neocons’ formula for democratic change was doomed from the start. Fourth, as befits a group of armchair ideologues whose primary goal has been winning power inside the Beltway, neoconservatives are often surprisingly ignorant about the actual conditions of the countries whose politics and society they want to transform. Hardly any neoconservatives knew very much about Iraq before the United States invaded — if they had, they might have reconsidered the whole scheme — and their characterizations of Iran today consist of scary caricatures bearing little resemblance to Iran’s complicated political and social reality. In addition to flawed theories, in short, the neoconservative worldview also depends on an inaccurate reading of the facts on the ground. Last but not least, the neoconservatives’ prescriptions for U.S. foreign policy are perennially distorted by a strong attachment to Israel, which Max Boot (and others) have described as a “key tenet” of the entire movement. There’s nothing wrong with such attachments per se, of course, but it has crippled their ability to give sensible policy advice to U.S. politicians. In particular, neoconservatives tend to believe that what’s good for Israel is good for the United States — and vice versa — which is why they see no conflict between their attachment to Israel and their loyalty to the United States. But no two states have identical interests all the time, and when the interests of two countries conflict, people who feel strongly about both are forced to decide which of these feelings is going to take priority.
Monday, August 24, 2015 12:52 PM
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