BLUE SUN ROOM

Jayne - more than guns and muscles?

POSTED BY: SPACEANJL
UPDATED: Saturday, September 1, 2007 22:28
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VIEWED: 5029
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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 12:07 AM

SPACEANJL


Just been reading a few other threads on characterization, and it struck me - most folk just see Jayne as the big dumb violent comic relief.

Which is fair.

But can't the man ever grow? I don't mean end up the cuddly teddy bear. (He's definitely more a Kodiak.) But he can't go through the whole arc of the series and still be the big dumb selfish gunhand. That makes him a cutout, and does a great disservice to both the writing and AB's portrayal.

Yeah, I'm biased. But if everyone else gets a shot at changing their lives, shouldn't we at least consider that Jayne might begin to realise that there are some things in the 'Verse you can't buy, and shouldn't even try to?

(However, inconsistent to the last, I still can't cope with Jaylee or Rayne - but this is because I can't see the characters ever forming that kind of attachment.)


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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 1:00 AM

SLYC


Jayne has grown. Just not a great deal.
He's learning about family.
And trust.
He can't try to get rid of River anymore though or he's out!!!
I don't think he would have tried again in the series but the movie needed to show that side of him.
He and Simon came to an understanding in 'Trash' after Jayne hurt his 'pine.
i.e. in the BDM when he says to Simon,
"I think it's noble as a grape the way you look to River. But..."
Joss obviously decided he had no feelings of loyalty towards River yet. They have not come to an understanding like he and Simon did. River may have to save his life or at least make him some money!

Politics is the showbiz of industry.

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 6:26 AM

SPACEANJL


I always thought that Jayne's attempt to sell River out was motivated by a rather dumb and ill-thought out idea that he was protecting his crew, which was backed up by notes in the FF OVC II. He's sort of getting the idea of crew and family, just not in the fine detail.

I think that scene at the end of 'Trash', where Simon is calm and deadly, was absolutely brilliant.

My personal take on it, is that River understands Jayne very well. He fears what he doesn't understand, and fear makes him angry, and inclined to do something dumb. She could have killed him in the 'Maidenhead' (hell, she could have killed Mal, and why she didn't is a little something for another time) but she just settled for hurting his...pride.

And I went along with what you said, about how I think they come to an understanding. She finds a way to appeal to his self-interest, makes him indebted to her.

My take on the character is based very much on what I've gleaned from the Official Visual Companions, and repeated viewings. I gave him a homeworld and a family that I thought fitted.(And, on a lighter note, I just thought if Jayne were ever to settle with someone, it was gonna be someone who could cook!)

But I don't think Jayne is ever going to improve unless Mal shows that he trusts him a little. In the end, I think that's the coin that's really going to count, which is probably going to surprise Jayne as much as anyone else.

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 6:57 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


Leaps and bounds. I see his growth just in the series as huge. Almost got misty the other day after seeing a shot of Jayne and Mal mulling over the death of the kid who was protecting his "hero". There is a specific frame where Adam completely captured the confusion and remorse rarely displayed by the character of Jayne. By the time they are headed for Miranda in the BDM you can see Jayne trying to choke down the natural option of cut and run because of the lack of pay for something no one will return from. He had already been given the order at Haven to help or suffer the consequences by the captain. The whole quoting Book thing is a confirmation that he actually believed in what they were doing regardless of the rammifications of their actions. That not acting will cost the same so why not make an actual differance. Would a person with the same characteristics as Jayne really accept being disintergrated by a large ship mounted weapon as opposed to fighting nose to nose with those who would end him. I see him as accepting the bloody stand as opposed to the blinding flash. For his kind pain makes you fight harder. It is a compass telling a person that they are still alive and there is still hope. Another day to chase tail and get paid.
He might not be the kind of person most folks particularly like or get along with. But he is someone you always want on your side in a fight. The most basic of squabbles are resolved with the most basic answers. Jayne is the basic answer to so many squabbles.

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 7:07 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Jayne was beginning to change. Ariel showed us that. The BDM showed us that.

" Here's a theory for you to disregard--"

Inara and Book were about the Past- their mystery was why they chose Serenity, what were they before, what led them to this?

Jayne was about the future-- what was he going to change into?

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 11:24 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


I always kinda saw it that way. Maybe more of a progession of the parts of people that they don't really recognize. I just got done watching the Mal/Inara fanvid of What Hurts The Most:



and couldn't help but revel in the freedom of Inara's facial expression. I saw it in a way similar to you. Sometimes the mystery and wisdom gives way to truth and innocence. There is always somewhere to go and something to believe in. I hate that book is gone. But it is the absence of a moral compass that shows the true nature of a person. IRL I have been that person. And later, after talking with those I had to be away from, they were regetful that I was not there to help. After a while the regret seemed to become accusatory. Book could not have survived the BDM. It was a part of all the aspects as a whole that had to change. Their dynamic must be altered in order to facilitate true change within themselves. And the lost innocence of Wash. Not to say he was an angel by any means. But he is the only grown man capable of killing on the crew that does not do so. I exclude Simon because he is a doctor and of course Book 'cause of the Man Of God thing. Jayne has nowhere else to go. He has to fill a bit of the innocent and moral compass spot. I had to refer back to the JungleJulia fic posted where Jayne helps coach Zoe through childbirth. He says something that isn't divulged 'til later in the chapter.
When River asks what he said to get Zoe to give the last hard pushes he states, "I told her that the only way she could ever see Wash again is if she pushed."
Another fic I have grown accustomed to (but rarely see updates for) had the same teary effect on me. Someone had seen where Jayne was going and let us know who he is. Indeed he is the future and the hope we wish to see in future works of the 'verse.


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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 11:36 AM

DANNIISUPERNOVA


I hate that a lot of people like to have Jayne be very 2D or feel that anything outside his basic spectrum is "a stretch" or "ridiculous". I really want to put my foot up their ass until they can lick the bottom of my shoe.

_____

"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)

How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 12:20 PM

NBZ


I will go against the grain and disagree.

Why can't he grow? He has grown. He is not a teen that has not lived. He is a grown man who has come to his point in life through experience.

Secondly, does he want to change? I doubt it. He wants the money, likes the violence. Besides it is probably darn comfortable knowing that if anyone was gonna double-cross anyone else, it would be him. Probably can sleep better in the night because of it.

So the main question is why would he want to.

He is not stupid. He has survived to where he has got, and is generally pretty smart about things that concern him. He may cross Mal, kick up a fuss, but how many of those times was he actually wrong? he said River was a risk. He was right.

I don't think he wants to change. He is not a child, and he will only change if he wants to.

He may not have much loyalty (otherwise he would have been caught along with Stitch Hessian), but he does have some. He needs to respect someone before he shows any loyalty. And he was sort of loyal from the start to Mal.

And then there are his vices. Greed being a big one. That is something that can be overcome intellectually (if eh wants to), but deep down he will still feel it.

Fear. He fears anything he does not understand. He may enjoy dishing out violence, but I doubt he would much resistance against torture. I think I have read two fics (one old one new) where he is tortured and he is superhumanly strong. Not gonna happen.

In the same way I doubt he has ever confronted Reavers face to face before.

But What about looo-ooo-ooove? (think War Stories). There is always the chance he had a sweetheart at some point in the past, soemthing that helped form who he is now. Things could have turned awry and now here he is. It will not happen head over heals again. He could meet someone he fell for, but not fluffy.

The thing is Jayne is an adult. We have to remember this. If he was - say - a 17 year old mercenary, he would change. but now has has a lot of livign under him to get him where he is.

So, is Jayne just a gun hand? no. (yes I am opposing my whole post. But not. See? clever.) he is a person. He has his religious side (YES). He has his thinking side (Jaynestown, The Message where he talks about what he expects of his life). He also has his love of violence ("Look - A scuffle!" with glee in the BDM). he is also a tracker, a gun hand, and a hard worker. You see all the stuff he is constantly moving around? THat is hard work. Then there is his hidden loyalty side (to Mal, maybe crew too, but the Tam's ain't crew. Not to him.)

He already has many dimensions, but he will not fundamentally change in any way IMO.

It is Ironic though that I see him dying doing something loyal.

PS I am not hating on Jayne. On the contrary, I like him. But I don't think I have read what I would call a realistic long term character study of Jayne. I think Mal and Jayne share A LOT of traits. Mal is just a little smarter about opening his mouth, and slightly more moral fibre.

(Sorry for repetition in there as I types it as I was thinking.)

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 12:34 PM

CAUSAL


Is this the thread where I reiterate my belief that Joss was gonna have Jayne betray them all come the end of season 2? Jayne's a bad guy--albeit a funny one. I would love to see a fanfic where Jayne sells them all out. Now that would be some great character development!

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 12:41 PM

ROMANCEGURU


I guess someone has to play devils advocate, and you make a strong argument.

I personally have trouble seeing Jayne as a one-dimensional character incapable of growing and or learning from aforementioned life lessons.

In the end, Jayne has shown hesitancy, regret and moral comprehension. In no way do I think he’ll make the leap from sinner to saint (where’s the fun in that, really), but I think he could learn to be a pretty decent person. Decent as a thieving, greedy killer for hire can be, that is. Just below Mal decent.

I love my antiheroes.

************************************************
"Hey, do you have any funny whorin' stories?"

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 12:51 PM

NBZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Romanceguru:
I guess someone has to play devils advocate, and you make a strong argument.



Thanks :)

As always the question is why he would want to change. Provide a realistic reason and scenario, and he can change. But I have not seen one that I agree with. (same goes with the rest of the crew except Simon, River and possibly Kaylee - who probably do not need as much to change an aspect of their character, but still unlikely.)

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 12:56 PM

NBZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Is this the thread where I reiterate my belief that Joss was gonna have Jayne betray them all come the end of season 2?



He was gonna have someone killed. No idea if it would be Jayne, but I am sure he would left a few options open. Maybe the actor asking for the highest wage?

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 1:02 PM

ROMANCEGURU


Welcome. : )

I guess I don’t see it so much as a why, but more of a natural progression of conscious.

After all, Jayne has a family somewhere, and therein lies the foundation for such values. Maybe he forgot them along the way, but I think slowly, this group is reminding him of what’s true. Perhaps just the craving to be apart of this mismatched family in the sky could be motivation enough? I kinda got that feeling towards the end of the BDM.

**********************************************
"Jayne, your mouth is talking. You might want to look to that."


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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 1:21 PM

LEIASKY


What's a 'stretch' or 'rediculous' is when people have him change instantly instead of grow over time into a believable 3 dimensional character.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 1:22 PM

LEIASKY


NBZ, excellent post. I couldn't agree more with what you've said.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 1:25 PM

LEIASKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Is this the thread where I reiterate my belief that Joss was gonna have Jayne betray them all come the end of season 2? Jayne's a bad guy--albeit a funny one. I would love to see a fanfic where Jayne sells them all out. Now that would be some great character development!



I actually started an outline for a fic that used that exact idea, but I JUST couldn't see him truly betraying even Simon and River after the end of the BDM.

. . .or - maybe I just didn't want to write a Jayne heavy fic, which it would have had to be to make it convincing :)

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 2:38 PM

WYTCHCROFT


i find jayne a very enigmatic character - so easy to put into a comic box (after all adam balwin's excellent and naturally humorous performance should be reflected)... yet there is more - he has feelings and they should be explored BUT there is genuine danger/violence in him - and i certainly lean more to your view (nbz)of him than most. i'm trying to work this through at the moment in about face pt 2- and would appreciate feedback.

on the run!

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 2:47 PM

RIVERFLAN


Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:
Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Is this the thread where I reiterate my belief that Joss was gonna have Jayne betray them all come the end of season 2?



He was gonna have someone killed. No idea if it would be Jayne, but I am sure he would left a few options open. Maybe the actor asking for the highest wage?



About that last line, I think that most people think right off that it's Jayne whats gonna be killed. Either that or Wash, seeing as Joss managed to kill him off in Serenity. I think the Wash one is pretty likely, but I don't know for certain. Does anyone know?

Oh, and for something that actually relates to this post: I think Jayne might be able to grow, but he'll have to have a reason to. Also, he won't want to admit to being wrong, so he'll probably try to hide it.

River: "The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems."

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Wednesday, August 22, 2007 3:08 PM

STINKINGROSE


My money for "most likely to be doomed to extinction" would be on either (prime candidate)Book or ('cause it would hurt Mal more) Inara. Neither of them are that central to most of the plots, and neither fulfill essential roles on the ship.
Simon became useful, River provides way too much potential for storyline, Kaylee makes things go, Wash makes the ship head in the right direction and is humor break guy albeit running a tight third as others can pilot, Jayne is a useful foil, Zoe is indispensable, and Mal owns the ship.
Okay, that's the obvious line of argument. As we all know Joss and associates are fond of not using the obvious option. Maybe he'd get tired of the turnipy smell and off Mal...


Jayne? Definitely some progress with room to grow. There was a deeper layer to him that we got glimpses of, and he was not irredeemable. If he'd just been 2D I wouldn't love the character as much as I do. (Not nearly as much as SA, mind you.) He's tough to write well.



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Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:24 AM

SPACEANJL


I assume I'm the SA alluded to in your above post? Guilty as charged.

You see, I don't think being a big, violent maniac is necessarily a bad thing, particularly not in the world these guys live in. In the Core worlds, yes, he'd be scary (would anyone like me to post that little ficlet?) but on the raggedy edge, he's the ideal candidate for survival. Mal uses him as a very effective tool for extracting info from Dobson ('pain is scary') and also from Badger ('spill your guts or I might let Jayne do it' 'oh,yeah'). And he doesn't hesitate to order him to lock things down when there's trouble in OoG. Part of the anger in 'Ariel' came, in my opinion, from the fact that Mal did feel personally betrayed by the man.

I'll agree with the idea that Jayne will change if he wants to, but I also think that (to the eyes of an obsessive anyway) there are signs of a more complex character throughout. I loved him braiding Helen's hair in HoG. The turtle in the lost script 'Dead or Alive'. The way he was cheerfully cooking in OiS. Yes, he's a grown man, and probably set in his ways. But it is possible to take a hardened case with occasional anti-social tendencies and persuade them that getting up to make the tea is their own idea. I'm married to one. Jayne is never going to be fluffy. We don't want fluffy. We want the kind of bloke that will cheerfully smash up a bar if someone spills his pint. Or your pint...

Of course, Jayne has survived as long as he has, because he doesn't question every action. You stop and worry about your shot, you're a dead man. He questions Mal on occasion, which I think is because he's not military, and automatically obedient, but he tends to do what the Captain orders when it is a matter of direct action. Making Jayne overly cuddly and navel gazing would do the character a disservice, and probably make for the same kinda life expectancy as the Doc walkin' into some of the rougher neighbourhoods on Persephone.

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Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:22 AM

JAYNESGIRL212


I'm with SA on this. Jayne is a whole lot more then he appears to be. It takes the right motivation to see what Jayne is capable of. Usually, money is his motivation, so you do see the greedy side. But what if Jayne did find that special someone that rocked his world? What would a man like Jayne do for someone he really cared for? He's not always such a big hard ass. Look at the way he was right at Rivers side during the beggining of the BDM when River starts pitching a fit about the reavers. Or the little bonding scene with Simon during Mal's misbehaving speech. Even putting himself in harms way to bring Zoe back to (somewhat) safety in the final battle, when he could have just left her out there to die. I think we would have seen more of what Jayne was about if we had more time with Firefly. I really think we would see a new side to Jayne given the right situation. For example, if Early did (god forbid) hurt Kaylee in that way, after the anger wore off, I think we would have seen a more caring Jayne. He even showed disgust at what was done to River in that scene in Ariel when Simon is doing the scan and explains to Jayne what it showed.

Sorry for such a long response. Just thought I'd put my two cents in. I think we'de see big changes in some of the crew after the fight at Mr. Universe's. I hope sometime we do get to see them on a screen somewhere!smile:

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Thursday, August 23, 2007 4:40 AM

MAL4PREZ


Hunh. I find this a little confusing. I guess I agree with SA that Jayne is certainly not just "big dumb comic relief," and any fic that draws him as such isn't doing him justice. The series was quite clear that there's more to him. I mean, there was a whole episode dedicated to him and his conscience, right? And though he's clearly self-interested and greedy, a major subplot delves into his idea of loyalty. SA - again I agree - he really thought that turning in the Tams was a loyal thing to do for Mal, and he had to learn differently. (But didn't Mal show trust when he didn't kill Jayne? He kept him on the ship and didn't tell folks what he'd done. That's trust!)

So, yeah, there was an arc for Jayne, a bit of a change in his character. There's potential for more self-realization in his future. But saying that giving him depth, making him 3D, means he has to "grow" past what he is in the series and movie, is silly. He's got plenty of depth already!

Actually, the most common OOC Jayne I see in fic removes complexity by making him too good. Bores me to death. I love Joss's verse because the bad guys aren't always bad and the good guys aren't always good. I'm with Causal - I want Jayne to betray the crew or something. I want his bad side explored, instead of cast side so that he can make a proper lover in a romance fic.

But then I'm biased - we all know how I feel about romance fics... *yawn* LOL!

*Running away to hide from the retaliatory flames...*

-----------------------------------------------
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Thursday, August 23, 2007 5:12 AM

LEIASKY


>But what if Jayne did find that special someone that rocked his world?

Oh, I dunno. I haven't seen much evidence of anything more than grenades rocking Jayne's world. :)

Well, and the occasional whore.

Doesn't mean he can't grow and change over time, but, really, he's a grown man, he isn't going to be doing much changing, and certainly not instantly.

I can't really say more than Mal4Prez already did. I tend to agree.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Thursday, August 23, 2007 4:11 PM

JAMESTHEDARK


The thought I always have in the back of my head when I write for Jayne is that, in the end, he's just a really big kid. He likes his fancy toys, it doesn't bother him in the slightest to get into a dust-up, and he'll take whatever he thinks he can get away with. But, like a kid, there are people he looks up too, people he looks out for, and people that he likes.
Keeping his eternal childishness in mind has made it very easy to make him make very inappropriate (Jayne-ish, even) comments at very inappropriate times, without breaking the character that Baldwin gave him.

--------------
I ain't lookin' for help from on high. That's a damn long wait for a train don't come.

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.

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Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:36 PM

SPACEANJL


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Hunh. I find this a little confusing. I guess I agree with SA that Jayne is certainly not just "big dumb comic relief," and any fic that draws him as such isn't doing him justice. The series was quite clear that there's more to him. I mean, there was a whole episode dedicated to him and his conscience, right? And though he's clearly self-interested and greedy, a major subplot delves into his idea of loyalty.

So, yeah, there was an arc for Jayne, a bit of a change in his character. There's potential for more self-realization in his future. But saying that giving him depth, making him 3D, means he has to "grow" past what he is in the series and movie, is silly. He's got plenty of depth already!
B]



When I asked if the character couldn't grow, I really meant that couldn't we have few more fics that explore those aspects we did see some of in the series.

I agree with the idea of Jayne's big kid qualities. Mind you, I think that's being male, most of the time. Watch any group of grown men with a barbecue/ new car/new gadget. Jayne just doesn't bother with the trappings of polite society. He's what most men trapped in a suit and office would like to be. (According to husband, anyway. Who got very bolshie during the recent water crisis, and wanted to build a bunker in the garage.)

Mind you, these threads are basically me trying to condense lines of argument that I usually take several chapters to explore. But if you swine won't read the damn things...

SpaceAnJL: Professional Jayniac, inflicting fanfic since 2005...

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Friday, August 24, 2007 3:51 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
When I asked if the character couldn't grow, I really meant that couldn't we have few more fics that explore those aspects we did see some of in the series.



Which I heartily agree with! And I must say, from what I've read, you do write a fantastic Jayne!

But it does seem like some folk's idea of growth in Jayne means he should fall head over heals in love, as if the only way to make him fully 3D is to have him lavish some lucky woman with affection. Personally, I prefer the man with his bad side showing, and I'm not real interested in seeing him tackle domesticity. I don't think it suits him well.

Jamesthedark: I see Jayne more as a big ole dog. Never got properly trained. Dopey and entertaining at times, but also can be mean and wild. It's his nature to kinda like having a lead dog to keep him in line. Which, of course, is Mal.


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Friday, August 24, 2007 4:36 AM

JONGSSTRAW


I believe we did see enormous growth from Jayne in Serenity. At the end, when he's lying wounded with a bullet next to wounded Zoe...he asks her if she thinks he did it. "You think Mal got the word out?"
The "old" Jayne would not have given a rat's patoot about doing that sort of thing unless he was getting paid. Book's death changed him I believe, and he showed real leadership during the firefight with the Reavers.

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Friday, August 24, 2007 5:02 AM

MSG


Jayne reminds me so much of my students. He starts out thinking of himself and what he wants to the exclusion of all else and his social skills are horrifying. Being with Mal and the others he learns so much...like you can't offer to trade a gun for a woman( even if the gun has a name) because she's a person. It's not ok to rat out crew mates for money. If you can't do something smart, do something right. Jayne really progresses from a self centered mercenary who only fights for money or for himself to a man who'd risk everything to find the truth for an emotionally wounded girl and then risk it all again to bring the truth to people and stop a cover up...that's a long way!

"I'm not all that interested in the mental health of people who want to kill me. "- Leroy Jethro Gibbs


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Friday, August 24, 2007 11:24 AM

NBZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I believe we did see enormous growth from Jayne in Serenity...



I think that was more over having his death mean something than having changed in any way. Just like in Jaynestown he found that kid's death disturbing. He is not made of stone. He does have some feelings. Which make him him.

Apart from that I doubt Jayne "grew" at all in The BDM - except for him finally meeting some reavers.

In a situation of violence you can generally count of Jayne - even when he is drugged up to his eyeballs. Totally in character and no real change IMO.

Did Book's death hit Jayne? Probably. Will it scar him for the rest of his life? probably not.

(All IMO because I am know to get these types of things wrong...)

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Friday, August 24, 2007 11:48 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


I see him (like MSG mentioned) as the child of the crew. Not that he will grow beyond much of what he already is. But (trying to remember previous post) he hasn't matured yet despite him actually being one of the older crew members. Chances are he'll never fully mature. Even he mentioned that a life like his don't last too long. In his line of work he is already an old man. But who else can eventually see him as the head man of his own little tribe of hell raisers?

(Raises hand)

Why not? He likes women. He probably has a few rug rats runnin' round he might be unaware of.

I also think he is comfortable on Serenity for the time being because he feels safe. He doesn't get paid particularly well, he works harder than everyone else when they have a job, and he'd more than likely have gave Mal and the others a cut of his earnings for being a rat to make up for his indiscrecion. Though now he know a bullet is his thank you if he ever tries it again. His fear keeps him on Serenity where, regardless of the situation, the crew has his back because they rely on each other so much.

But these are just my observations on a fictional character as experienced with real world people.

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Friday, August 24, 2007 12:51 PM

STINKINGROSE


"Won't read" them?!

(Sits patiently tapping fingers and feet, with occasional throat clearings and watch checking...)


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Friday, August 24, 2007 2:10 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I believe we did see enormous growth from Jayne in Serenity...



I think that was more over having his death mean something than having changed in any way. Just like in Jaynestown he found that kid's death disturbing. He is not made of stone. He does have some feelings. Which make him him.

Apart from that I doubt Jayne "grew" at all in The BDM - except for him finally meeting some reavers.

In a situation of violence you can generally count of Jayne - even when he is drugged up to his eyeballs. Totally in character and no real change IMO.

Did Book's death hit Jayne? Probably. Will it scar him for the rest of his life? probably not.

(All IMO because I am know to get these types of things wrong...)


Ok...seems logical

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Saturday, August 25, 2007 6:37 AM

RIVERFLAN


I agree with the child/dog mindset theory that some people have with Jayne. Yes, he might grow. But, as I said earlier, he'd have to have good reason to. And he won't grow completly. He'll still his kid/dog characteristics.

I don't think he'd have that army of rug rats, though. He might like his women, but I don't think he'd be able to marry one. For Jayne, women are in three catagories: whores; kaylees, who he'd want but not be able to have; or too scary to think about (go zoe!). At least that's my theory.



River: "The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems."

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Saturday, August 25, 2007 6:59 AM

CRUITHNE3753


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I believe we did see enormous growth from Jayne in Serenity.



I bet that whore in Heart of Gold saw enormous growth from him.

Jayne; more than guns and muscles - man parts too!

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Saturday, August 25, 2007 7:10 AM

NBZ


Since some people that see Jayne as a child, I have a question. Do you also see Saffron as a little girl?

(Not making any point, just curious)

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Saturday, August 25, 2007 11:17 AM

EMPIREX


Quote:

Originally posted by Jaynesgirl212:
Look at the way he was right at Rivers side during the beggining of the BDM when River starts pitching a fit about the reavers.

Even putting himself in harms way to bring Zoe back to (somewhat) safety in the final battle, when he could have just left her out there to die.



Gonna play devil's advocate here:

Not for nothing, but these two instances don't necessarily show Jayne being altruistic.

Jayne likes his life. Jayne wants to survive. River pitching a fit while they're pulling a heist makes things not go smooth. Also, he's a little scared of her and when the psychic starts having a fit, Jayne's smart enough to know that something might be wrong and that "something" might affect him in a negative way.

And pulling Zoe back on the line? Why would he leave their most capable fighter behind? Zoe was wounded, yes, but she wasn't out of the fight, if you recall. A wounded Zoe is still more useful in a battle than, say, Kaylee. (Not to diss Kaylee, I love Kaylee, but we all know fighting is not her strong suit.)

Not saying your interpretation of Jayne's actions is wrong, just saying that they *could* be interpreted differently.


Also, what NBZ was saying about change: I whole-heartedly agree. Some people can change that late in life. Most people don't. Not even for loved ones.

Jayne could change. If he really *wanted* to. If he actually recognized that he was flawed and needed to do something about it.




Patsy: When you were two years old, we tied you to the central reservation of a motorway.

Edina: But you were like a homing pidgeon, sweetie....back within a week!

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Sunday, August 26, 2007 3:17 AM

SPACEANJL


But this is the point! Jayne doesn't need to change. Just show parts of his character that we haven't seen that much of to date.

I think Jayne could be faithful. Because that would be 'his' woman. He could be loyal to the crew, because they are also 'his'. If you posit that Jayne thinks in those absolute terms, all you have to do is to be on the right side of the 'mine' and 'everybody-else-who-don't-matter-a-cuss' divide.

It's the kind of mindset that keeps you alive in a very harsh world. It's simplistic, but it's not childish. And it's not necessarily flawed.

Granted, he doesn't seem to have a great deal of education. I should imagine that that is a luxury you can only enjoy with time and cash, if you aren't Core. (And remember that the Tams are very wealthy folk; even without the brains, they aren't everyday Core.) And equally, introspection, speculation upon your place in the 'Verse, is something you don't have a deal of time for when folks are shooting at you. It's not a trait he needs to go picking up, either. Jayne having a crisis of conscience when there's someone needs hitting might not be too healthy for anyone.

However, he has all the life skills you really need in their environment. Watch the body language when there is work to be done. He locks down, gets focussed. All the weights? - another weapon he's taking good care of. Not a strategist, but perhaps more than a blunt force weapon.

I will use my own words here - 'If Zoe is Mal's strong right hand, then Jayne is his left hook.' Mal doesn't hesitate to use him, to extract info, to intimidate, to provide covering fire. And Jayne whines, grumbles and does what Mal tells him. Mostly.

'Knows his place, and it’s behind Mal, watching that the man don’t get them all screwed over, being noble and decent and all that gorram foolin‘.'

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Sunday, August 26, 2007 11:18 AM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:
Since some people that see Jayne as a child, I have a question. Do you also see Saffron as a little girl?

(Not making any point, just curious)



this is actually a really interesting question - that can be taken on a number of levels...

(ok, gulp, so...) Jayne is presented as pretty much giving in to a sort of primal self (an Id maybe) which in the 'verse is not necessarily a bad thing since naturalness equates with freedom...

However with freedom (as Joss points out in all his series) comes responsibilty for action - choices. Jayne has the choice to betray Simon, for example, it's not an 'in the moment' thing.
the choice is not a good one. the arguement that he was just being true to himself falls down. similarly he is a 'Big Damn Hero' but why?? because he loves violence - he is a mercenary - he was never an independant.
So he may end up on the 'right' side for the 'wrong' reasons. (BDM/Heart of Gold)
His actions in general can then perhaps be seen as being in 'BAD FAITH' - from an existential point of view (yep Mal and Faith) which makes him an adult.

Saffron may be seen in the same light - initially a 'wayward child' figure - the girl can't help it... (she would certainly play on that fact to manipulate a 'mark'!)

there are though strong pointers in Trash that in fact she is pychologically patterned - making the same CHOICE do be 'evil' over and over again. This act of bad faith/irresponsibility - a failure to see past her conditioning or addictive behaviour (whichever you favour as motivation) again can only be done by an adult.

However - another level.
Depends on whether you see the characters in F.F. as sufficiently grown up and complexly defined (written).
the simplistic - mechanical behaviour of characters in fairy stories often marks them out as being (effectively) children, with little grasp of the ramifications of their actions or the realities of their socio-political environents. e.g. STAR WARS (despite Lucas banging on about Anakin failing 'to choose') but are the charaters in F.F comparable (personally despite the genre elements and cartoon comedic moments i think no, F.F. is much 'grown up' as is Galactica)
critics are mixed in their verdict when it comes to Heroes in popular culture.

are they as adult as they should be?

are we 'childish' for finding qualities in these fictions??

scattered scattered thoughts. sorry for such a LONG post.

still shiny

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Sunday, August 26, 2007 12:12 PM

NBZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
But this is the point! Jayne doesn't need to change. Just show parts of his character that we haven't seen that much of to date.

I think Jayne could be faithful. Because that would be 'his' woman. He could be loyal to the crew, because they are also 'his'. If you posit that Jayne thinks in those absolute terms, all you have to do is to be on the right side of the 'mine' and 'everybody-else-who-don't-matter-a-cuss' divide.



+1

In Jaynestown, Jayne more or less stands up for "He ain't Crew and I hate his guts" Simon in the standoff with Stitch Hessian.

That is also another similarity between him and Mal - those who are theirs matter. Noone else does. Granted Mal does cast his net a little wider, but not much. (Same with education. Mal seems to be more educated than Jayne, but probably not too much more. His saving grace is that Jayne blurts his thoughts out faster.)

@wytchcroft - it is all interesting. I think we are long overdue another encounter - one where Saffron is on the back foot. just to keep things interesting.

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Sunday, August 26, 2007 2:34 PM

WYTCHCROFT


Quote:


I think we are long overdue another encounter - one where Saffron is on the back foot. just to keep things interesting.



i have a cunning plan...

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Sunday, August 26, 2007 3:32 PM

EMPIREX


Quote:

Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
But this is the point! Jayne doesn't need to change.



No, you're right. And I like Jayne just the way he is. It's the way Joss wrote him!

I'm just saying that if a fic writer wants to make him a bit more... cuddley/grownup/moral/whatever, it would be a bit more realistic to put him on a journey towards that change than, say, just finding the love of a good woman out of the blue ( Or black. Whatever. =D ) and suddenly he decides to be "good".

Patsy: When you were two years old, we tied you to the central reservation of a motorway.

Edina: But you were like a homing pidgeon, sweetie....back within a week!

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Sunday, August 26, 2007 3:49 PM

CRYSTALKEI


So he may end up on the 'right' side for the 'wrong' reasons. (BDM/Heart of Gold)

Remember Spike in season 5. He got that chip and found out he could beat up demons, so he fell in with the scoobies...that's jayne. He gets to shoot people with mal, when that stops, he's outta there.

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

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Monday, August 27, 2007 5:35 AM

SPACEANJL


Jayne is always going to end up on his own side. If you think back on what we've seen of his past associates - Ferlinghetti, Hessian - not the best kinda folk to hang out with. Mal and crew might be lawbreakers, but they are a different kind of bad. I expect Kaylee and Wash came as a massive shock. You think you're falling in with badass military rebels, and there's some wisemouth in a lairy shirt and a cute li'l thing in overalls (who you ain't allowed to hit on, 'cos the scary woman might shoot you, and 'sides, she's younger'n your sisters...) I think association with these people is altering Jayne's ideas of what it's like to be on a crew, and provoking latent loyalty and trust. Not conspicuous factors in his previous crews, I should imagine.

I'm always surprised by the number of fics that have Jayne with a rough homelife. That letter from home (and the Hat!) spoke of a much nicer upbringing. Not a wealthy, well-educated one, but a proper family upbringing. He still has both parents, they are still together and there was no indication of conflict in '[Matty] waves hello, and so does your father...'

So, I see him as someone who went out to work early, doing the things he was best at (tracking, shooting, violence) and has always taken care of himself, because there wasn't anyone else to do it. Not through neglect - provisional backstory being that his father worked a lot of hours in a manual job to keep the family. (Nobody welds like a Cobb, despite the layoffs.) Now, he's part of a group that takes care of each other, which is a new experience for him.


EmpireX, I think when Jayne finds love, it ain't gonna be with a 'good' woman...

*warning - ficpimping* When I wrote my scenario, it was very much with the idea of exploring the edges of what we'd seen of His Big Bad Self. I wanted to put in a character who would fulfil Wash's role of the 'let's not kill everybody in the room' crew member, perhaps someone who would provide an idea of what normal life in the Core was like (Tams and Inara - not your everyday folk...) I always intended that she would end up as the cook, because Mal wanted to hire one (Out of Gas flashback) And then I re-read an old AB interview. (His idea that Jayne would like to settle down, and the type of woman he might like.) Bam. Character. A smartly dressed, independent businesswoman. Since she has no background knowledge of the crew, she's free to form her own opinions, and being on board, initially as a passenger, she gets to know Jayne outside of the shore-leave persona. And a grown woman is perfectly entitled to think 'yummy' when a bit of tasty like that strolls by.

Plus - I think it would be quite in character for Jayne to be entranced by a woman who can cook and has her own still.


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Monday, August 27, 2007 7:53 AM

SPACEANJL


*bump* 'Cos.

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Monday, August 27, 2007 8:19 AM

NBZ


I think no one replied 'coz you got all the angles covered.

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Monday, August 27, 2007 8:40 AM

SPACEANJL


Oooh, does that mean I get a prize?

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Monday, August 27, 2007 9:53 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Is it ever 'splained anywhere how Jayne got the name Jayne? Like the "Boy Named Sue"..given to him to make him strong?

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Monday, August 27, 2007 10:38 PM

SPACEANJL


I think I read somewhere that it is an old English corruption of the name 'John', but the Johnny Cash connection spoke very loudly to me, too. (The first time I heard 'Highwayman' last verse, I freaked completely.)

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 8:25 PM

JONDESU


I think Jayne is a very deep character, but he will always be crude and base, despite a fierce loyalty once it's earned (which admittedly takes a lot) and a great deal of concern for his actions. He doesn't hesitate to kill when it's needed, but remember he also didn't hesitate to bow his head for Book's prayer in the pilot, and he wholeheartedly supported praying over the dead Tracey and others. I think there's a childish sort of faith there, not true belief in the Christian sort of way, but he's concerned over his fate, although he also probably believes he's beyond hope. I think he could grow, and I think he wants to in some ways, like with him struggling to understand why the kid took the shotgun blast for him in Jaynestown. I also have come to accept (and write) Rayne, though Jaylee still disturbs me and Jaynara is downright vomitous (sorry to anyone who likes it, but I stop reading at the first sign of that type of relationship, it just doesn't fit with either character).

So yes, much more than guns and muscles, but not in some of the ways some people look for him to be.

jW

"Yep, that went well."

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 10:28 PM

PSYCHOTIC


Jayne is an awesome character, not a 2-D, stereotypical "muscle", Chewbacca.

Jayne's mom taught him well, IMO. He believes it's okay to do whatever he must to survive, but he also knows the difference between good and bad. A reason why Jayne and Book bonded so well was because they both did things that they weren't too proud of. Bad things. After many workout sessions together, Book became Jayne's conscience, as well as Mal's.

Jayne fears what he cannot understand. God is one of those things.

I don't think that Jayne has experienced romantic love before. He only loves Inara for sex, and Kaylee as his little sister and teases her so. That can change, but he'll have to share his inner thoughts/feelings to someone. He can't learn to be vulnerable within any short period of time.

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