ANGELUS ARCANUM

Maybe it's good it was cancelled . . .

POSTED BY: GRRARRG
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 10:31
SHORT URL:
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Friday, March 11, 2005 3:56 AM

GRRARRG


[ducking to avoid various flying objects]

Now, hear me out. Maybe this has been said before, but it just really came together for me.

I think most people would agree that Angel S4 (all the inexplicable events dealing with "the Beast" and releasing Angelus, supposedly to pave the way for Cordy's love child) and Buffy S7 were among the crappiest times of either series. Episodes were poorly written, and the story arcs were annoying and full of unnecessary elements. It has always seemed fairly obvious to me that Joss was heavily involved in creating, running, and then trying to save Firefly while those episodes of Buffy and Angel were in production, and thus he was not as involved with Angel or Buffy. Then, with Angel S5, Joss was much less distracted, and there was significant improvement (although the end was rushed due to the unexpected cancellation).

Which brings us to last summer, when production for Angel S6 would have been in full swing. Except that Joss spent every waking hour working on Serenity. He would have had even less involvement with Angel than ever, and I really think it would have been the worst season of either series, and certainly would have been cancelled. So, given the timing of Serenity, I think the show ended on a much higher note than it would have. And now I'm thinking that that was a good thing. I don't think we could have had a quality Angel S6 and a quality Serenity, and the Firefly 'verse is much more deficient than the Buffyverse.

Anyone agree?

I mock you with my monkey pants

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Friday, March 11, 2005 6:05 AM

CAPTAINCDC


I respectfully disagree. I must be one of the few people on this site that thoroughly enjoyed S4 of Angel. I think it was the 2nd or 3rd best season out of the five. I also enjoyed S7 of Buffy. Though I would put S2, S3, S4, and S6 in front of it in terms of my favorites. I think S6 of Angel would have been really good even with Joss working on Serenity because one thing he has proven good at is surrounding himself with brilliant writers. Plus with Wonderfalls being cancelled around that time maybe the great Tim Minear would have come back to run the show in Joss's stead.

The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!

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Friday, March 11, 2005 6:58 AM

CYBERSNARK


Plus, y'know, compare even a crappy season of Buffy and/or Angel to. . . just about anything else on the air.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 7:18 AM

EMBERS


I have to agree w/Cybersnark...
even the worse episode in the worst season
of any Joss show,
would be ten thousand times better than most everything else on TV

so, lets argue about what WOULD be the worse episode of the worst season?
Because in my experience no one ever agrees:

I thought BtVS was weakest it's first season...
and that the worst show was 'Teacher's Pet'
- altho I loved the moment when Buffy's teacher had faith in her, before he was horribly killed...
- and I really loved the implied open ending where there were eggs laid in the science room
(does that mean the murdered teacher was a virgin?)

On Angel the Series I felt that the weakest season was S4
and the weakest episode was when evil Cordelia
is trying to tell evil Angelus what to do in the funny (masculine) voice...
that all seemed very cheesy to me.
But as I recall the good part was Wesley...

so IMO there is always something redeeming...

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Friday, March 11, 2005 8:11 AM

ZEEK


I liked Season 7 of Buffy. Granted the massive number of potentials did lead to some problems. Not all the characters could be developed and such.

Anyway as for worst episodes:

Buffy - probably an episode like As You Were. Pretty much a pointless episode to wrap up Riley's story. Since I never liked Riley's character I'd rather they just see a little blurb about him in the obituaries at some point. That would have been nice.

Angel - I'd go with Double or Nothing. Such a let down after Forgiving. The episode was pretty dumb and pointless. Come on, gunn sold his soul for a truck. I don't buy it.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 8:14 AM

CAPTAINCDC


As I said before I liked S4 of Angel, but one of the main reasons for that is Wesley. I had always thought Wes was hilarious, but the transformation he went through in between seasons made him my favorite character of any of Joss's shows.

I also think that Buffy S1 was the weakest of the 7. However it had a great villian and it was still enough to have me hooked for the duration of the series. As far as Cordelia talking in the masculine voice, I am tempted to say that it was cheesy in a good way 'cause every time I hear it I find myself cracking up. One of the weakest eps of Angel IMO might have been the one where the doctor could dismember parts of his body and roam around as just a hand or something.

The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!

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Friday, March 11, 2005 8:21 AM

BATMARLOWE


I can see your point. At this time last year I was ready to see ANGEL go. I felt S5 was the weakest overall season. But I know Joss had some big ideas for S6 and I would have liked to have seen them so I'm a bit torn.

As to my worst eps, Doublemeat Palace is, IMHO, the worst episode of BUFFY, don't really know about ANGEL. Somewhere toward the end of Season 4 with all the possessed Cordy crap. Somewhere around in there is when I felt the quality in ANGEL drop. Particularly when they tried to convince us all previous events were orchestrated to bring about Jasmine.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 8:46 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
Anyway as for worst episodes:

Buffy - probably an episode like As You Were. Pretty much a pointless episode to wrap up Riley's story. Since I never liked Riley's character I'd rather they just see a little blurb about him in the obituaries at some point. That would have been nice.

Angel - I'd go with Double or Nothing. Such a let down after Forgiving. The episode was pretty dumb and pointless. Come on, gunn sold his soul for a truck. I don't buy it.



See? I thought 'As You Were' was more about what a pathetic loser Buffy was (and not really so much about Riley, except that, in contrast, he had his life together)

and selling your soul for a truck may seem silly to you, w/your good job and a car...
but to a homeless teen-ager trying to keep a band of children safe, it probably seemed like life itself (I LOVED that he didn't think to require air-conditioning...because inner city LA is unbelievably hot!)

so, I hope this didn't qualify as high jacking a thread,
because I love hearing people's least favorites


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Friday, March 11, 2005 8:56 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:
so, lets argue about what WOULD be the worse episode of the worst season?


Quite honestly I thought the worst episode of Buffy was the last. The reason wasn’t the cinematography, or the characters, or anything like that. It was the presentation.

Every girl who could be a slayer will be a slayer. Yay! But, the thing that I remember about slayers is that they are murderers. When Faith started killing people it was no big deal to the people who knew slayers. They had a nice little, ineffective, plan all set up. One would assume this is because it happened so often.

Now you have slayers all over the world, and more being born all the time. Each of these has the potential to be a more a terrifying killer than the vast majority of demons. There isn’t anyone around to guide all of these slayers and keep them from becoming killers.

Strength like what they will have usually results in one of two things, becoming a bully, or being bullied. Neither of those encourages a nonviolent lifestyle.

-

With all of that in the air they make it seem like it’s an incredibly good thing that the world is now filled with natural born killers not all of which are likely to join the forces of good.

It just struck me as off. So very off that I dislike the entire episode and the ones leading up to it. They had enough problems dealing with one bad slayer.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 9:37 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
the thing that I remember about slayers is that they are murderers.
There isn’t anyone around to guide all of these slayers and keep them from becoming killers.



Wow,
you certainly were watching a different show than me.
So you figure that without a middle aged British guy to guide them,
most young women with super strength will kill people right and left?

I was just imagining they would all join the Olympics

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Friday, March 11, 2005 9:49 AM

CORNCOBB


Christhecynic, you made a very good point. Not all of these young impressionable killing machines will be good. I've even been writing fanfic about that idea. It deals the revelation that the slayer powers were drawn from the First, and now that all the potentials have been activated the First can corrupt them. Thing is, once they've been cured, some will have enjoyed turning 'dark' and will keep on killing.

I would have liked to see Angel S6 but it's true that this might have overstretched Joss. Maybe he could have done it but maybe not.

My least favourite season of Buffy was season 5. It was just really girly. There's nothing wrong with that of course but since I'm a guy I couldn't relate. Plus, Glory and dawn annoyed me. And, unlike most seasons, there really wasn't a potent metaphor.

I think the weakest episode was All the Way. It was juvenile. I felt like I was watching 90210 with added vampires.

"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."

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Friday, March 11, 2005 11:42 AM

SALTYGOODNESS


I guess I am one of the other few who didn't hate S4 of AtS as much as most people. During the first half of the season I felt like the week in between episodes was SOOOO long and I couldn't wait to see what would happen next. Of course, evil Cordy was a bummer, especially for those of us who had been hoping to see her and Angel connect-and Connor and Cordy was repulsive.

I thought S5 seemed more disjointed and I didn't like the Wolfram & Hart setting as much; I missed team Angel sitting around working on problems together in the hotel. That being said, I loved many of the episodes individually, they just seemed more self-contained than the rest of the seasons to me (except S1).

I agree that one of the worst Angel ep's was the one with the dismembered evil doctor harrassing his lover. As for Buffy, I am only halfway through S3 having just started watching the DVD's (since I am an Angel and Firefly fan, thought I should finally see Buffy!) and so far my least favorite episode is Bad Eggs. The monster in the basement popping out evil chicken eggs just seemed really lame to me.


As for a S6, I actually think that it ended really well and as sorry as I was to see my favorite show EVER conclude, I am very satisfied with the way they wrapped up the story.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 4:15 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:
Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
the thing that I remember about slayers is that they are murderers.
There isn’t anyone around to guide all of these slayers and keep them from becoming killers.


Wow, you certainly were watching a different show than me.
So you figure that without a middle aged British guy to guide them, most young women with super strength will kill people right and left?


Have you ever noticed what happens to people who are given extraordinary gifts? The vast majority of them don’t use them for the greater good. Tell me, if not a middle aged British guy who has had extensive training who should guide them?

Even with guidance from professionals we aren’t exactly given a high ratio of success are we?

Quote:

I was just imagining they would all join the Olympics

Right, so you think that they would use a supernatural advantage given to them by breaking an ancient rule to immorally win the only sporting event in history designed (ok, revived) to promote peace and friendship among all nations of the world.

All of this knowing full well that people have been known to kill themselves for losing there, not to mention the psychological effects of a record breaking loss.

But, you don’t think that they would harm anyone even if they knew they could get away with it.

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Friday, March 11, 2005 7:59 PM

NUMEROCINCUENTAUNO


As a late convert to the Buffyverse, I am a bit biased -- Buffy S7 and Angel S5 were the only seasons I watched first run. However, even now that I have the whole backstory down, I very much enjoyed Angel S5, and I think it is a shame that it did not continue. As someone above suggested, even the lamer shows of either series were better than most anything else on.

The original point was that Angel S6 would have necessarily been terrible because Whedon was so tied up with the Firefly project. While I concede that the episode quality seems to improve to extent Whedon is more involved, he also seems to be able to attract a pretty strong team of people for what is a collaborative and commercial business. As others have noted, even the weaker seasons included outstanding episodes, and even weak episodes included outstanding moments.

The original premise of Buffy was "high school blonde by day -- demon butt-kicker by night -- but fatally attracted to a tall REALLY dark and handsome." To Whedon's credit, he allowed the characters and the environment to grow, expanding on characters and situations that worked (like Spike) and discarding those that didn't. The cosmic joke ("Our high school is built over a Hellmouth? That explains a lot.") and the original premise ended with Season 3 ("Taking a moment", also the point at which Angel and Cordelia transfer to the new series). The transition to college (and the Initiative) probably sounded good at the time, but ultimately didn't work (although "Hush" and the last two episodes of S4 are as good as any). Season 5 is a writing tour-de-force, if nothing else, because by retroactively introducing a younger sister, they put the original premise back in place.

However, the real problem is how you come up with an enemy that is sufficiently evil, especially when you start (in Season 1) with the ultimate evil. How ultimate can evil be? By season 5, Buffy was no longer fighting a demon, but a God (thankfully a mentally- and fashion-challenged one). Still, Buffy achieves apotheosis in defeating this enemy. The series was quite prepared to end with "She saved the world -- a lot."

[By the way, Buffy stops breathing for a few seconds in season 1, and we get Kendra/Faith. She is dead and buried after season 5, so where is the third slayer? I'm just sayin'.]

Angel was always a more "noir" and edgy than Buffy (the episode where Angel regains his humanity, is again Buffy's lover, and gives it up in order to help her, is perhaps the most moving episode of either series). The problems with Angel S4 had something to do with the writers dealing with real world events. I thought I heard that the real actress Charisma Carpenter had a real pregnancy and some real hassles with the production team. I thought the introduction of the fatherhood dynamic as a potential enemy was brilliant. The introduction of Jasmine -- the enemy you do not know you are supposed to fight -- was beyond brilliant.

Angel S5 -- putting them in charge of the law firm -- added so many more dimensions (no pun intendend) of the central question: who is the evil that you are fighting? My bottom line -- I believe I would have enjoyed most of an Angel Season 6 tremendously (although possibly not as much as a Firefly Season 2).

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Saturday, March 12, 2005 7:55 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by NumeroCincuentaUno:
[By the way, Buffy stops breathing for a few seconds in season 1, and we get Kendra/Faith. She is dead and buried after season 5, so where is the third slayer? I'm just sayin'.]



as I understood it, each slayer could only be 'replaced' once...
you couldn't keep killing Buffy and keep getting more and more...
because Buffy did get killed a lot.

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Saturday, March 12, 2005 9:25 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


It always struck me that the difference between Buffy and Angel, the shows, not just the characters, was that Buffy was about destroying evil and Angel was about protecting those that deserved it.

I think that came out well in an episode of Angel that Buffy came over on, I think it was about Faith but I could be wrong as I saw it a while ago. Angel said that he was in the business of saving souls.

If the one with Faith was not the one about saving souls it was certainly related. Buffy wanted to punish Faith because she had been evil, Angel wanted to help Faith because everyone deserves a chance at redemption.

Even the method of finding evil is different in Angel. Evil things were drawn to Buffy, probably because of the hellmouth and the fact that she was the Slayer, but I’m not sure. Angel on the other hand was given direction through visions passed down from a higher power. Those visions were most often about people in need of saving, not evil in need of killing.

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Saturday, March 12, 2005 11:10 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:
Quote:

Originally posted by NumeroCincuentaUno:
[By the way, Buffy stops breathing for a few seconds in season 1, and we get Kendra/Faith. She is dead and buried after season 5, so where is the third slayer? I'm just sayin'.]



as I understood it, each slayer could only be 'replaced' once...
you couldn't keep killing Buffy and keep getting more and more...
because Buffy did get killed a lot.


As I understand it Buffy is no longer the one after she dies, so to get another new slayer you need the newest one to die.

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Monday, March 14, 2005 11:29 AM

GRRARRG


Some good points. Personally, I would love to have gotten Angel S6. But in a grander sense, it think it would have deteriorated to a point that it's status would have diminished. I like the fact that every time I see a mention of the show in a review or article, the author is using it as an example of a great show that was prematurely cancelled. If WB had decided to give it another season, it would have gone downhill, and any future mentioning of Angel would be as an example of a show that should not have continued. Again, I would have enjoyed it personally, but it would have hurt the reputation of the show and Joss's reputation. Of course, maybe that doesn't matter.


To re-hijack my own thread in a new direction,
Quote:

As I understand it Buffy is no longer the one after she dies, so to get another new slayer you need the newest one to die.


That's the way I've understood it. So since (in Buffy S7) the First was trying to kill all of the potentials so that the slayer line would end (I think that was the goal), then it would seem very convenient for the current chosen one - Faith - to be confined to jail. Why, then, would it send someone to kill Faith? This would call a new slayer, one that would probably join up with Buffy and make the First's mission harder. To remind you of the reference: they showed a scene of Faith working out in the prison yard, when some big inmate approached her with one of those Bringer knives. She said it was nothing personal, that someone was paying her to kill Faith.

I mock you with my monkey pants

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Monday, March 14, 2005 4:35 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by grrarrg:
Why, then, would it send someone to kill Faith?


To reintroduce Faith into the plot?

If I go for the logical approach maybe something will come up.

Right now there are two slayers around, one that simply refuses to die, or rather does it often enough but avoids staying that way, and another that is the one, killing her will bring about a new one.

Obviously you want to kill Buffy more, but Faith is a danger too, leave her out of it and someone will tap her. On the other hand kill Faith, a very good killer, and somewhere you have a new slayer, yes, but one lacking in experience.

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Tuesday, March 15, 2005 4:19 PM

CORNCOBB


Actually, for an entity that was apparently trying to kill all the slayers, and certainly had the resources to do so, the First was peculiarly lax in achieving its aims. It even led Buffy to the Scythe, allowed her to take it, and indirectly gave her the idea to give the other slayers their powers. Plus, it was somehow strengthened by Buffy's ressurection. Think about it...

P.S. sorry for the hijack

"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."

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Wednesday, March 16, 2005 6:01 AM

CYBERSNARK


Hmmm.

It's possible that the First wanted things to play out as they did. Think about it; when one Slayer dies, another is called. Now that Willow has basically "called" every living potential, there'll be no one to replace Faith (the current "reigning" Slayer) when she dies.

The lineage is now hopelessly snarled.

So, time passes, and Willow's call likely wouldn't apply to anyone not actually born yet, so no new Slayers are born.

Sure, there's an army of Slayers now, but they're mortal, every one. Eventually, they'll start dying off, even if they win every possible battle (which, let's be realistic, they won't). And I'd guess that some of the less trained/defended girls are going to end up vampire chow, which raises the possibility of Slayer vampires.

Remember that the First is well and truly undefeatable --it simply can not cease to exist. It's also very, very smart, and it thinks long-term. It allowed itself to get beaten, and for that one Hellmouth to be closed (Giles himself reveals that there are others).

I'm guessing that there's an army massing somewhere to counter the Slayer army, just enough to keep the vampires and demons and forces of darkness busy until the Slayers are all used up. Maybe that's what the Senior Partners had planned for Angel. Or maybe that army that Angel faced in the finale is the anti-Slayer brigade. . .

Wouldn't that be a kick. The apocalypse happens, and it ends up pitting Angel against Buffy.

Or maybe ("plan B?") was for Angel to be the crucible --the drill sergeant who would winnow the demon community, taking out the weak and ineffective so that the survivors would be hardened veterans, ready to face an army of Slayers.

Or maybe Angel was never the point.

Maybe they just wanted Illyria to appear, so that she could command their army. . .

Illyria versus Buffy.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Wednesday, March 16, 2005 6:27 AM

THEDUKE


Quote:


Quote:


Originally posted by NumeroCincuentaUno:
[By the way, Buffy stops breathing for a few seconds in season 1, and we get Kendra/Faith. She is dead and buried after season 5, so where is the third slayer? I'm just sayin'.]





as I understood it, each slayer could only be 'replaced' once...
you couldn't keep killing Buffy and keep getting more and more...
because Buffy did get killed a lot.



I don't particularly agree with this but i can see that it makes sense and is as valid an argument as any other.
However, it's interesting is it not to concider that buffy had not died naturally but supernaturally ina way that wasn't intended for her death, and that the great scheme of things hadn't caught up to the fact that she'd gone into the ball of energy and not Dawn. And there would be no reason to do anything about the fact dawn had gone cos she wasn't really real anyway.

This is a ridiculous point i know, and makes very little sense, but i thought i'd bring it up.



I am the preditor of the vole.

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Wednesday, March 16, 2005 9:01 AM

ZEEK


I apologize for my original mistake about the worst Angel episode. The worst Angel episode in my mind is, without a doubt, "Why We Fight" in Season 5. It is such a terrible episode IMO. Angel recruited by the government who happen to know all about him? Come on. Spike and Angel meet up on a submarine? Sorta throws off their reunion during Buffy season 2 doesn't it? The only thing about it that was even decent was Angel saving people by creating a vampire after he got his soul. Decent idea. Terrible flashback setting and premise.

As for the slayer thing. I still like the alternative script for the last episode of Buffy that says Dawn is a slayer becuase she was made from Buffy. So while I agree that each slayer can only call one other slayer when they die, there is also the fact that Buffy may have died but her slayer powers lived on in Dawn.

The theory about the First wanting all the extra slayers cause they are mortal and eventually will die doesn't work for me. I agree that Willow's spell only affected potentials that were born at the time of the spell. However, because of Fray I assume that there will still be at least one slayer called at any given time. Perhaps The First did want some vamp slayers though. I was hoping that would become an uber enemy at some point in the Buffyverse. I always liked when the big bad was a vamp. Gave the enemy a more human feel.

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Thursday, March 17, 2005 1:16 AM

GROUNDED


Why We Fight was indeed the low point of S5, but I'd have to go with Slouching Towards Bethlehem as the worst ever episode. S4 hadn't exactly had a stellar beginning but when I saw STB I just thought 'what the hell has happened to my favourite show??'

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Thursday, March 17, 2005 5:01 AM

CYBERSNARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
However, because of Fray I assume that there will still be at least one slayer called at any given time.

Ah, but Fray also establishes that there've been no Slayers (and no vampires) for, what was it, 300 years?

Maybe that's how long it took for the tangle (from Willow's spell) to unravel itself.

So, eventually, Faith dies, which would have called the next Slayer, but it can't now 'cause there's a whole army of them. Same thing when they start dying. Eventually there's just one left, who could very well be the one described in Fray, who sacrifices herself to destroy the vampires and demons.

So, no more vampires, but no more Slayers either --the First doesn't need vamps anyway, it'll exist as long as there's even one human willing to step on another on the way to the top.

Besides, as we see in Fray, humans eventually start creating their own "demons."

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, March 18, 2005 11:02 AM

GRRARRG


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Hmmm.

It's possible that the First wanted things to play out as they did. Think about it; when one Slayer dies, another is called. Now that Willow has basically "called" every living potential, there'll be no one to replace Faith (the current "reigning" Slayer) when she dies.

The lineage is now hopelessly snarled.

So, time passes, and Willow's call likely wouldn't apply to anyone not actually born yet, so no new Slayers are born.




I hadn't thought about that. Excellent point. However, it would only work if Faith died before any more potentials were born. And at the end of Angel (one year after all the potentials were called), Faith was still probably alive, although they never said either way. I'm drawing a blank as to where Faith went when she left Sunnydale - did she turn herself in again?

If the only potential were just an infant when Faith died, would it still be called? As crazy as that would be, I can't think of a real reason why it wouldn't happen.

I mock you with my monkey pants

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Friday, March 18, 2005 11:18 AM

ZEEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:Ah, but Fray also establishes that there've been no Slayers (and no vampires) for, what was it, 300 years?

Maybe that's how long it took for the tangle (from Willow's spell) to unravel itself.

So, eventually, Faith dies, which would have called the next Slayer, but it can't now 'cause there's a whole army of them. Same thing when they start dying. Eventually there's just one left, who could very well be the one described in Fray, who sacrifices herself to destroy the vampires and demons.

So, no more vampires, but no more Slayers either --the First doesn't need vamps anyway, it'll exist as long as there's even one human willing to step on another on the way to the top.

Besides, as we see in Fray, humans eventually start creating their own "demons."

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.


Probably should have mentioned that all I know about Fray I learned from the breif description on Amazon.

Either way, there is still a slayer. So the spell didn't destroy the line entirely.

And the First didn't win by the time Fray occurs so that's goodness too.

I'm still for the theory that the First was none too happy that willow made a whole bunch of slayers. But I've always been curious as to what that big ball of eyes that Anya and Giles consulted weas talking about when it said that Buffy was the reason the First decided to get all active. I take it that was something to do with her dying and coming back to life a lot and messing up the line of slayers.

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Friday, March 18, 2005 12:39 PM

EMBERS


I think you're right about the 'eye-ball' guy thing,
I think the First had been satisfied with one Slayer
(who was a force of good)
and thousands (millions?) of demons for her to fight.

The First was not crazy about the seemingly Immortal Slayer.

It would make sense to me if the First was REALLY pissed now,
but w/Caleb, & the Uber-vamps killed,
and the hell-mouth closed...it has been kind of a bad time.


Zeek someday you should check out 'Fray'
a fun combo of the Buffyverse moving into the Sci-fi future.
wacky fun

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Saturday, March 19, 2005 5:28 PM

CROWLEY


Just to voice an opinion here, I actually liked it when the seasons were more disjointed. If you think about it, most Buffy seasons were pretty formulaic on the basic level: introduce a new evil guy in one of the first episodes, build him up along the season with some unrelated episodes in the middle and in the end destroy the big evil. I guess that's why I've grown to like Angel more, and that's saying a lot since I watched nearly all Buffy episodes, but when Angel got started I was completely disinterested with all the Anne Rice angst. First season episodes I saw could be counted with the fingers on one hand. Anyways, back to the point, I liked that the bigger plotlines in Angel kept you guessing more. Though I agree that the Evil Cordelia turn in S4 was a letdown. The season had great apocalyptic feel in it up to that point. It's like watching someone inflating a balloon, but instead of the big bang you expect it gets loose and sputters flat.

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Monday, March 21, 2005 8:35 PM

NUMEROCINCUENTAUNO


OK, I thought I made a fairly subtle point about the narrative core of the Buffyverse, and the entire response had to do with an entirely arbitrary side comment concerning the Slayer Succession. Joss and company can make up whatever rules suit them, as long as they keep the viewers believing in the fictional universe.

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Tuesday, March 22, 2005 3:04 AM

GROUNDED


"Season 5 is a writing tour-de-force, if nothing else, because by retroactively introducing a younger sister, they put the original premise back in place."

Tour-de-force? They don't actually deal to any real degree with the fact that essentially history has been rewritten to include Dawn. A big oversight if you ask me. S5 included such rubbish as Dracula, Glory the god preoccupied with fashion (!!!), some random Knights who have no clue what they're doing, Riley's shoddy exit and the cop-out of all time in Buffy taking Dawn's place with some fudged 'blood' explanation. Fair enough it had Fool For Love and The Body, but other than those two I don't think there's an episode I'd rewatch.

However, you do get points for using the word 'apotheosis'. Best word ever

"Joss and company can make up whatever rules suit them, as long as they keep the viewers believing in the fictional universe."

And if we don't believe any more...?

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Tuesday, March 22, 2005 8:20 AM

AMYEL


Grounded, was there any season of the Jossverse you ever liked? Any time I come to this board, or the Buffy one, you mostly respond to things you hated. You obviously know a lot about the shows, but if you disliked the plots so much of the time, why did you keep watching?

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Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:58 AM

ZEEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
S5 included such rubbish as Dracula, Glory the god preoccupied with fashion (!!!), some random Knights who have no clue what they're doing, Riley's shoddy exit and the cop-out of all time in Buffy taking Dawn's place with some fudged 'blood' explanation.


I actually liked S5. It was a huge step forward after S4's major step back. They got rid of Riley. That was a great move. They got an enemy that was at least interesting (the half human half god thing). They brought in Dawn pretty darn well. Then the huge final battle. I liked it.

My problem was those knights. Didn't anyone else get upset that up until this season Buffy was all upity about not killing a human. She even had a line during the hanzel and grettle episode about finding an way out of the not killing human clause or something. Yet those knights don't seem to count as she slaughters tons of them without remorse. I know she was protecting her sister and blah blah blah. That would be an ok explination if she at least said something about it. Any one liner would have helped.

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Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:01 PM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by amyel:
Grounded, was there any season of the Jossverse you ever liked? Any time I come to this board, or the Buffy one, you mostly respond to things you hated. You obviously know a lot about the shows, but if you disliked the plots so much of the time, why did you keep watching?



Hehe, I've been asked this a few times. Seasons 1-3 of Buffy are brilliant, 4 is good, 5 is passable, 6 tanks after Tabula Rasa and 7 is so boring it's untrue. Angel S1-3 are amazing, 4 is dire, 5 is a huge recovery, if a little shaky at times. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Joss fan based solely on Firefly When I felt the shows were floundering, I continued to watch because I wanted to keep up with continuity should they improve. I was rewarded with Angel S5

Quote:


They got rid of Riley. That was a great move.



I disagree. While the Initiative story was a bit of a dud, I felt Riley was a solid basis for an interesting character. We saw flashes of that in Goodbye Iowa and there was a nice character moment ("She doesn't love me") between him and Xander at the start of S5, but then the kneejerk reaction was to get rid of him when he and Buffy hit the ropes. The way he was written out was absolutely terrible, and his reappearance in S6 utterly ineffective.

Quote:


They got an enemy that was at least interesting (the half human half god thing).



But they didn't really play that up. There was the one really good moment where Ben stabs the underling guy but other than that where was the substance? There was a lot of scope there (even if I thought the Glory character was ridiculous) but they never really mined the possibilities.

And Dawn. What exactly is the point of her? She's introduced in this world-affecting way and yet he plays little or no significant part in the majority of the final 3 seasons. Much like Xander in that respect, I guess :(

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Tuesday, March 22, 2005 3:03 PM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
and 7 is so boring it's untrue.


well I agree that S7 of BtVS was frustrating at the time it aired,
but have you ever rewatched it?
Because several of the episodes are amazing (IMO)
I recommend rewatching:
Selfless (Anya sings, and talks in Swedish)
Conversations with Dead People
Storyteller (of course I always love Jane Espenson's writing)
Dirty Girls (Drew Goddard's love song to Eliza, plus Faith kills a Vulcan! LOL)
okay, four really good episodes don't make for a great season,
but I think even the worst episodes have their wonderful moments
(and are better than anything else on TV)

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Tuesday, March 22, 2005 7:52 PM

NUMEROCINCUENTAUNO


However, you do get points for using the word 'apotheosis'. Best word ever

I always knew there had to be some benefit to earning a BA in English.

Not to quibble, as there were certainly aspects of B5 that were less than perfect, but to your points:

- "dealing" with the history of introducing Dawn; it's magic. One of the great things about the Buffyverse is that you have to check your 'willing suspension of disbelief' at the door. Numerous events throughout the season hinted at Dawn's tenuous status in this reality.

- Knights: The subtle point I was trying to make was that the dynamic of the seasonal arcs had more to do with the enemies than the the heroes. Demons got their butts kicked in graveyards, but gods already had an army (the Knights of Byzantium) to oppose her/it.

"And if we don't believe any more...?"

We stop watching (and contributing to sites like this.

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Wednesday, March 23, 2005 12:59 AM

GROUNDED


Embers: Those are indeed the better episodes of S7, but I wouldn't rank any of them highly compared with the rest of the series. When I saw CWDP first run I thought 'wow, they finally pulled a good episode out', but when I saw it again recently and was thoroughly unimpressed. Kind of shows the standards to which I'd been holding the series at that point. Selfless is ok, if a little ridiculous, but I have a real problem with the character of Anya since she was completely remoulded after her appearances in S3.

Numero: What I meant by 'dealing with history' was not the history of Dawn's introduction, but the implications for established history. Buffy finds out that Dawn isn't real, but there's no examination of past events afterwards.

"We stop watching (and contributing to sites like this." Why? I can't contribute because I love the first part of a series but dislike it's ending? I stopped finding Buffy believable in S6, but that doesn't mean I don't care I didn't find it believable...

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Monday, March 28, 2005 8:36 PM

NUMEROCINCUENTAUNO


From a writing standpoint, I thought it was a "Hail Mary pass" to introduce a sibling 3 1/2 years into the show. Apart from the fact it led to a number of cute situations:

JOYCE
If you are going to the movies,
why not take your sister?

BUFFY & DAWN
(together, whining)
Mom!

The move effectively split the Buffy character. Dawn allowed the series to stay in touch with teenage anxieties (who am I really?), while Buffy could go on to deal with more mature themes like selflessness (season 5), teamwork (season 6), and leadership (season 7).

Given that the whole introduction of the sibling was a (nearly literal) "deus ex machina" device, in my opinion they spent a fair amount of energy on the ramifications of the "history," at least to the individuals involved. If you don't accept that "magic" explains how a 14-year-old could suddenly appear in the memories of everyone she would have interacted with, then that addresses your second point: for you, that maneuver spoiled your belief in the premise of the show.

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Tuesday, April 19, 2005 1:08 AM

FREDIKAYLLOW


My feelings on seasons of Buffy and Angel are varied.

Buffy- I must be of the few people that actually like ssn 1. I don't know why. Not a huge fan of Teacher's Pet or The Pack though. I also love ssn 2 with the appearance of Angelus. Ssn 3 is also good, but there are a few eps that were disappointing (The Zeppo for instance). It's hard to judge ssn 4 because I didn't see it until after I had seen all the other episodes in the whole series. But I think it's a little disappointing with a few standout eps. I absolutely love ssn 5, I think Glory is really interesting. I'm a fan of insane characters. Didn't really like ssn 6 (the whole Buffy/Spike thing was just a little too weird for me) but I love OMWF and Tabula Rasa. Ssn 7 got a little better, but I was a little let down by some parts.

Angel- I watched all Angel episodes completely out of order (I started at ssn 4) so it'shard to tell, but-
I like ssn 1, particularly Doyle eps. Don't get me wrong, I love Wesley too, but Doyle is just great! Ssn 2 is really good, I especially like the Pylea eps (which were the first eps I ever saw). I like early ssn 3, but I feel it went sort of down after Connor came back from Quor Toth. I like early ssn 4, it lost me around the middle to be pulled back with the Jasmine storyline. Ssn 5 felt a little odd, but it was pretty much good. Eps such as The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco and Lineage were not exactly my cup of tea whereas A Hole In The World and You're Welcome were fantastic.

As much as I wish Angel had continued, i do understand that it probably would have been a huge let down.

Anyway, just my opinion


*************************************************
No Power In The 'Verse Can Stop Me
XOXOX-FREDIKAYLLOW-XOXOX

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Tuesday, April 19, 2005 6:07 AM

CHRISISALL


But, Fredikayllow, if you didn't own them, and you could only afford to start buying one, which would you get, Buffy or Angel?

A situation I currently find myself in Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 19, 2005 8:15 AM

GROUNDED


You didn't like Lineage??

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Tuesday, April 19, 2005 8:35 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by Fredikayllow:
Buffy- I must be of the few people that actually like ssn 1.


I list BtVS S1 as my least favorite,
but that does not mean that I don't like it...
I think the very worse shows of either BtVS or Ats are head and shoulders above most of American television.
There isn't a single episode that I don't enjoy on some level.
There is always some humor, some character growth, and many things that I care about.

Very few TV shows offer half of what the dullest of Joss' shows offer!

Personally I don't think for a second that a 6th season of Angel would have been a let down.
If Joss had more stories to tell (as he said he did) then I know I would have loved to have seen them!

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Tuesday, April 19, 2005 10:31 AM

ZEEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Fredikayllow:
Ssn 5 felt a little odd, but it was pretty much good. Eps such as The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco and Lineage were not exactly my cup of tea whereas A Hole In The World and You're Welcome were fantastic.


You didn't like Lineage? I didn't mind it at all, but I think Why We Fight may be the worst Joss episode of tv ever. I mean the idea of the vampire changed after angel got his soul back is ok, but the sub and WWII stuff was just awful IMO.

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Tuesday, April 19, 2005 7:05 PM

NUMEROCINCUENTAUNO


OK, I understand some of the objections to "Why We Fight," but I have another opinion.

First, submarine stories are a writing genre that I, (and presumably many others), love. The first grown-up book I ever read was about a submarine salvage operation in the 1930's. I have read "US Submarine Operations In World War II" several times.

Second, the episode filled in a great chunk of the Angel and Spike backstory. I concede that the Spike in this story is not quite evil enough to match up with BTVS Season 2. But I love the explanation for the leather coat.

Third, the episode delivered the basic submarine premise of a "closed environment" very well, with the final solution based on the Buffy/Angel mythology.

I thought the 'standing on the office chairs with a noose around the neck' was stupid.

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Wednesday, April 20, 2005 12:43 AM

GROUNDED


The premise was ridiculous though. Fair enough if they wanted to do a submarine story with Angel in it, but why concoct a reason to get Spike in there too? Not only does it mildly contradict some of Buffy S2, it ruins what could have been a very dark story indeed. Of course that wasn't solely Spike's fault - the other vampire characters were abysmal.

Personally I think I'd have preferred to see Angel in the trenches.

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Wednesday, April 20, 2005 10:31 AM

THEHAPPYTURTLE


i would have to say i did enjoy S4 of angel, up until the whole jasmine thing- everything with the beast was pretty cool- and i have to agree with a statement made earlier, Wesley was always my favorite character, especially when he got all gruff. When he died in the last episode, i almost cried. Man, the possibilities for S6 of Angel are just endless, but they would need basically a whole new Angel crew, cuz Gunn clearly wasnt gonna last the fight, wes was dead, cordy was dead and fred gone. I personally think angel, spike and Illyria would have survived the fight- i doubt spike would have been brought back from buffy only to be killed off at the end of a single season. I have only seen a couple episodes of S6 of Buffy, but i really liked S7, really engaging with a pretty conclusive ending. And i just have to say, Andrew was awesome, he always made me laugh. Anyway, maybe after Serenity and Wonder woman Joss will make a Buffy and/or Angel movie, like before or after Serenity sequal!

Roses are red
Violets are blue
You're ugly as a monkey
You should live in a zoo

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