ANGELUS ARCANUM

the angel finale

POSTED BY: EST120
UPDATED: Thursday, October 28, 2004 10:26
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VIEWED: 6277
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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:46 AM

EST120


okay, TNT has run the course of angel in their 5pm time slot (the actual series finale airs today). having already seen the finale, and finally getting to see "power play", i wanted to know what people thought about how the series wrapped up. here are some of my thoughts (WARNING! there are some spoilers, but i am not putting the tags on to cover them up!!!! read with caution!):








1. the story line with the black thorn felt so rushed (albeit, because the writers may not have had time to expand as much as they would have liked). i never got a real sense about just HOW powerful the circle was. it would have made angel's "suicide" mission a little more palatable.

2. i have only seen from the middle of season 3 to the end and most of season 1 (except for the season finale), but why does angel kill lindsay? i know they have been at odds, but lindsay does seem to be on their side. he even says to eve that he believes angel will be fair to him.

3. in power play, when angel is about to kill drogyn, does drogyn know that angel is there to kill him? drogyn says "thank you" right before angel bites him and breaks his neck. drogyn is under the impression that angel sent demons to kill him, so would be know that angel is there to finish him off or does he really think angel is going to save him?

that is all i can think of right now, i may add more later. i would love to hear some people's thoughts!


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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:08 AM

RHYMEPHILE


Quote:

Originally posted by est120:

(spoiler space left)













1. the story line with the black thorn felt so rushed (albeit, because the writers may not have had time to expand as much as they would have liked). i never got a real sense about just HOW powerful the circle was. it would have made angel's "suicide" mission a little more palatable.



If you look back around the time they found out they were cancelled, it was *just* after the 100th episode celebration. Which, y'know, sucks. But I've found that after watching Season 5 again knowing what I know is about to happen, it's a little better the second time around. except for that gorramn-awful Halloween party episode. *shudder* The first time I saw the season I was disappointed, but watching it unfold every day on TNT is a bit better to digest.

Unfortunately, the Black Thorn arc had to be thrown together after they found out they were cancelled. I think they did an admirable job of bringing together all the baddies from the season to this one evil circle of power. Yeah, more time would have been justified, but what are you gonna do? Maybe we'll find out the writers' true intentions on the commentary.

As to #2, I think I'm going to have to watch it again tonight. Lindsey was always working against Angel this season and wanted him dead -- in fact, that was why he came back to LA, as we learned -- and I think Angel did it out of self-preservation. He really couldn't trust Lindsey not to squeal to the Senior Partners about what was going to happen. When you watch the earlier seasons you'll see where Angel's mistrust comes from. Lindsey has double-crossed Angel before.

And #3, the Drogyn...y'know, when Angel first goes to the Well, he greets Drogyn like an old pal. I can't remember the two of them ever meeting, or did I miss something? I guess the writers wanted us to assume that Angel and Drogyn had met before, but I know it wasn't within the episodes of the show.

Perhaps the "thank you" was his happiness at being released from torture from the Black Thorn. BUT -- and that's a big one, capitalized -- when Wesley is describing who the Drogyn is to Gunn after Gunn's "Aragorn" crack (hee!), Wes says that Drogyn is immortal. So Angel couldn't have killed him with just a simple vampire bite. Sloppy writing? Or was it done on purpose? The Circle had to have known Drogyn was immortal. So I don't get it either.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:31 AM

EST120


Quote:

Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Wes says that Drogyn is immortal. So Angel couldn't have killed him with just a simple vampire bite. Sloppy writing? Or was it done on purpose? The Circle had to have known Drogyn was immortal. So I don't get it either.



well, angel does break drogyn's neck after he bites him. i think that kills him rather than the bite itself.

one other question is when hamilton breaks into spikes basement apartment and confronts drogyn and illyria, it is clear that drogyn and hamilton know each other. since drogyn was only in a couple episodes, this relationship is never explained in any detail. i wonder why it was put in there.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:49 AM

CYBERSNARK


Quote:

Originally posted by RhymePhile:
As to #2, I think I'm going to have to watch it again tonight. Lindsey was always working against Angel this season and wanted him dead -- in fact, that was why he came back to LA, as we learned -- and I think Angel did it out of self-preservation. He really couldn't trust Lindsey not to squeal to the Senior Partners about what was going to happen. When you watch the earlier seasons you'll see where Angel's mistrust comes from. Lindsey has double-crossed Angel before.

Agreed; Lindsey was useful to Angel, for now, but he'd proven that he couldn't be trusted. Having Lindsey killed was really no different than Mal offing Crow. Don't leave a living enemy at your back.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 9:21 AM

GROUNDED


Immortal does not equal invincible - vampires are immortal and they can be killed. I'd say he says 'Thank you' because he believes Angel is saving him.

As for the story being rushed, I do think it was a little rushed but not because of the cancellation. With the self-contained episodes being so important this time round I think it was plotted this way from the get go. Joss has mentioned in interviews that they barely changed anything (if anything at all) once they knew S6 was off. All they really needed were one or two mentions of the Circle in eps preceding Power Play and they'd have been sorted.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:33 AM

MAUGWAI


As to the Lindsey question: Lindsey tried to leave Wolfram and Hart in season one and went back because of his greed. Then he brought Dru in to turn Darla back into a vampire after Angel had spent a good deal of time and effort convincing her to accept mortality. Lindsey also ran Angel over with his truck. And after finding out that Lindsey's new hand was evil, he quit Wolfram and Hart and insinuated that from now on he would be a better man. Yet here he is, a couple of years later, back to evil.

So I think part of it is Angel's general hatred of Lindsey. Some of it is the fact that no matter how repentant Lindsey seems at the moment, his history has shown that he will always return to the dark side. There's only one way to deal with that in the world of the supernatural.



"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:07 PM

SLOWSMURF


It was rushed, no denying that. However, I think it was also more or less the original plan. It might've been slightly less rushed feeling, but they didn't want overall gigantic arcs this season, so they might've been required to only have a two parter even.

Kinda sucks, but I still loved the finale. It was the perfect way to end the show in my opinion.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:57 PM

DIETCOKE


Just saw it again tonight. Boy that Wesley death scene gets me every time....Question for the group. Why did Angel have Lorne, of all people, kill Lindsey?


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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:01 PM

FRSCPE1


Because Angel wanted Lindsey to have to go out in the way that he never suspected, by the least worthy (in Lindsey's eyes) member of the Fang Gang.

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:15 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by frscpe1:
Because Angel wanted Lindsey to have to go out in the way that he never suspected, by the least worthy (in Lindsey's eyes) member of the Fang Gang.



Angel didn't want to have to kill Lindsey. But since he felt he had to, it only makes sense that he'd chose someone Lindsey wouldn't suspect.

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:29 AM

IDEFIX


I think it was Lorne because Lorne couldn't do any of the other's jobs. he simply was available and it was a simple and not very dangerous job to go with Lindsey let him off the bad guys and shoot him afterwards when he's not expecting anything.

what I never got was why Wes was sent on a job he couldn't do. was it just bad luck? it seemed to me he never had a chance to kill his assigned enemy and it was just sad to see him fail at the end after coming such a long way from the boy who never could do anything right to the hero he was at the end. that he dies was right and the best thing they could have done. this guy wanted to die. he was the only one of the gang who really had a reason to die a hero because life had nothing left for him. but to die failing was sad. he shouldn't have needed Illyria to finish his job for him after doing her own without breaking a sweat. that belittled him in a way I wouln't have wanted to see ever.

everything else about the end of AtS was perfect.

Lorne leaving because he's not a fighter at heart was right. he left his home dimension because of it, it would have been just wrong for him to die in battle. his battle was killing the unsuspecting lindsey. it was necessary and right but Lorne is no killer and never will be. it was a big step for him to do something like that. a sad last action for our unwillig hero, who'd rather be an entertainer.

the day before the battle was just perfect. Gun goint to see Anne and his old gang. Spike reading his bad poetry in a bar and getting cheered for it. Angel going to see his son one last time. Wes tending to Illyria because he doesn't have a perfect last day. sad but true.

Idefix

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:10 AM

RHYMEPHILE


WAAAAAHHHHH! I cried through his whole death scene again!! *sniff* *blubber* I'm such a wuss, but I can't help it! I hated having Wesley die, but on top of that there comes the realization that there will be no more Angel ever....it makes a gal weep. (But how cool that he died with his eyes open?)

As to why Wes was sent to his doom, Vail was the most powerful, and only Wes had the means to stop him. Vail mentioned that Wes was "unstable" and Angel used that interest to his advantage by sending Wes. And Wesley was the only one of the group with enough power, knowledge, and courage to even remotely stand up to the powerful wizard demon. I do kind of wish his death scene was a bit longer. *sniff*

Killing Lindsey was done out of necessity, and I think Angel knew Lindsey wouldn't have too much of a problem killing his set of demons. That's why he sent Lorne, to make sure Lindsey would never turn on him. It still sucks that they had to make Lorne into a killer, though.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:14 AM

EST120


Quote:

Originally posted by Idefix:
what I never got was why Wes was sent on a job he couldn't do. was it just bad luck? it seemed to me he never had a chance to kill his assigned enemy and it was just sad to see him fail at the end after coming such a long way from the boy who never could do anything right to the hero he was at the end. that he dies was right and the best thing they could have done. this guy wanted to die. he was the only one of the gang who really had a reason to die a hero because life had nothing left for him. but to die failing was sad. he shouldn't have needed Illyria to finish his job for him after doing her own without breaking a sweat. that belittled him in a way I wouln't have wanted to see ever.



i do not think wes' job was impossible for him. what i do not understand is that wes (as far as i can tell) has never really used magic as a weapon. he uses it to heal, to reverse bad spells or protect, but never really to outwardly harm. where in the world does he start getting these fireball things? his death is sad. probably the saddest moment in the finale, but i think cyvus vail was probably the member of the circle most capable of going toe to toe with any member of the crew as he showed in the episode where connor has to kill sahjan (sp?). i think (other than angel), wes probably got the hardest assignment. angel and wes are probably closest when it comes to friendships on the show (at that point, with cordelia gone). maybe it is logical that angel would trust wes with one of the more important parts.

perhaps his inability to kill vail without illyria is more indicative of his hopelessness. his immense sense of loss with the death of fred. he does not really have his heart into anything.

just a side note. i LOVED hamilton in this episode. he was great. i love his speeches to angel as he is tossing him around the lobby of wolfram and hart. great stuff. my favorite is when he head butts connor and says "what is with you people?" right before tossing him into the elevator doors. so cool.

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:32 AM

IDEFIX


I don't think Wes was the best for this job. Illyria was far stronger and she did manage to do Wes's job for him when she showed up. and she didn't seem to be too challenged by it either.

and I also don't think Wes was not into it. he seemed to try his best, it just wasn't remotely enough. Wes is not a badass magician, he never was. he performes a few spells here and there but more like Giles does, when it needs to be done and with preparation and a book and lots of other stuff to make it happen. if it were Willow I wouldn't argue, she's supposed to be magical right to the ends of her colour-changing hair. if she wants to and believes in herself she can just kill anyone with her magic, nothing but her will and her power required. but Wesley? he's not like that, he always was the brains of the operation, not the spiritual/macical power. how was he supposed to defeat a magician as powerful as that? I still don't get it. sending him to his ultimate failure wasn't right. why not send Illyria to kill tha mage in the first place? Wes might have had far better cards in shooting the guys Illyria smashed. that would have been more his kinda game.

I'm just ranting because they let my hero fail before he died, that wasn't fair, he didn't need that. but Joss never gives us what we want, he always gives us what we need and now he made Wesley's death a real tragic one.

but as far as death scenes go I still prefer Fred's. that was powerfully sad and heartbreaking.

Idefix

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 6:04 AM

GROUNDED


To be honest I thought Wes' death scene was a little comical. It was like 'we're going to kill Wes and we're going to make you cry' but it was too overblown. The idea of having Illyria appear as Fred for him was good but it was presented in a far too schmalzy manner.

I also agree with the fact that Wes and Gunn were given assignments above their level of capability. I'd have liked to have seen a little more thought put into their plans - perhaps Angel having prepared something beforehand since he knew what was going down. The poisoning was clever but the rest weren't.

And Lorne killing Lindsey was just classic. Shocking, well-acted, true to character. It almost made me believe I'd been transported back to Season 1, the illusion only being shattered by Lindsey's hair ;)

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 6:21 AM

IDEFIX


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
To be honest I thought Wes' death scene was a little comical. It was like 'we're going to kill Wes and we're going to make you cry' but it was too overblown. The idea of having Illyria appear as Fred for him was good but it was presented in a far too schmalzy manner.



I have to agree with that. I'm german and since we are the inventors of schmalz (it's a german word) I'm pretty much allergic to it. we germans tend to hate ourselves and everything that came from us, comes from the crappy history I think. plus we're sarcastic and contrary by nature.

Wes' death didn't touch me, whereas Fred's death was really really well done. you could see Fred's fear and Wesley's helplessness. he was just breaking down with grief. not being able to do anything. and she tried to be strong and reasuring and it didn't work because she was so scared and in pain. that followed by the EP where Illyria changes into Fred and we have to watch Wes seeing her do that,pretending to be the person he loved. that was hard to watch and that's what really makes powerful impressions that last.

the only thing on TV that I can remember affecting me like that was the Farscape EP 'The Choice' where Aeryn mourns for John. the death scene in the EP before was ok but I think it was overly long and drawn out, but the mourning EP was perfect, followed by meeting the other John back on Moya it was powerful TV and that's scarce.

Idefix

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:04 AM

MRSMACK


I think that we are probably overanalyzing the situation. Who else but Wesley is left to fight Vail. Spike is slotted for saving the baby. That is probably very important to Angel, because the baby is innocent and doesn’t deserve death. Spike has the best chance of getting the baby back, and as such does so. Gunn has no chance whatsoever against Vail. However it is likely that he can kill the politician and does so. Illyria is to loose of a cannon to be trusted. I think that she got lucky when she killed Vail in that he just saw Fred, and he assumed that she was a weak little girl. I guess when you are extremely powerful you tend to overlook some of the things that can kill you.

I believe the whole meaning of the show was about finding something good and wholesome to believe in and then fighting for it. Angel knew that they were going to die, he said as much to Spike. But all men die, that’s not important. What is important is why they died and what they were fighting for. James Marsters said that he thought that important issue was fighting for what you believe in, now whether or not you win or lose.

As such, each had a task, and it probably killed two of them if you count Gunn, who would have been dead in minutes. Everyone knew the risks. Being heroes they went ahead and accepted them, and then did their job. The consequences of those actions, of stopping evil, if just for a while was probably the death of all of them, but it is a price they most certainly were willing to pay.

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:23 AM

EST120


here is a thought. maybe the assignments that angel gives are a combination of whomever he feels is most suited to do the job AND a slightly more personal revenge kind of thing. during the meeting of the circle, when angel signs away the shanshu prophecy, vail says about wesley, "we're interested in mr. wyndam-pryce. he seems intriguing unstable.". senator brucker says about gunn, "mr. gunn on the other hand, does not. it's a shame; he had so much potential.". not that this is exactly a slap in the face to wes and gunn, but more of a mild "calling them out" kind of thing. vail is basically saying that wes could be turned to evil (a fact that angel alludes to later) and brucker is pretty much saying that gunn is not really worth their time. perhaps angel's thoughts are let wes and gunn show them what they are really capable of. of course, gunn succeeds by running an axe through brucker's forehead while wes puts up a bit of a fight (though he succumbs). plus, brucker protects herself with vampires and who else better to deal with that than gunn?

kind of a stretch, but it KIND of makes sense, right?

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 11:31 AM

GROUNDED


All I know is it whupped the Buffy finale's ass ;)

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 3:06 PM

CRAZYHORSE


oh god yeah, Fred's death was horrible, I definately cried... and it wasn't so much when[\i] wesley died so much as afterwards, when the cold emotionless illyria was actually grieving for him that hit me. That was a nice touch, even if Wes failed at his mission, he still succeeded with illyria a little.

Ok, yeah, I even teared up a little bit when Lorne had to kill Lindsay (which is kinda weird for me to type cuz my name's lindsay :P). Not for Lindsay's sake, but for Lornes... I guess I was a little hormonal or something when I saw the finale air, lol, but I also thought Angel did the right thing in having lorne do it. Lindsay would have stabbed them all in the back the first chance he got.

"...what'd yall order a dead guy for?"

"Oh I got respect, i'm just sayin'... GOLD"

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 3:11 PM

CRAZYHORSE


Lol Grounded!

sorry about the italics guys

"...what'd yall order a dead guy for?"

"Oh I got respect, i'm just sayin'... GOLD"

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Thursday, October 28, 2004 12:19 AM

GROUNDED


Lol indeed :)

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Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:01 AM

RHYMEPHILE


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
All I know is it whupped the Buffy finale's ass ;)



Grounded, holy cow, something about Angel Season 5 that you liked?

Comparing both finales for a moment, I wasn't spoiled for Spike's return to Angel in Season 5, so I thought they actually killed him. I was really upset over that, and yeah, I bawled like a baby, but Wesley's death affected me so much more.

And Idefix, you said:
Quote:

I'm just ranting because they let my hero fail before he died, that wasn't fair, he didn't need that. but Joss never gives us what we want, he always gives us what we need and now he made Wesley's death a real tragic one.


I think the fact that he even faced Vail was the most heroic thing he could have done, knowing how powerful Vail was. And he may have failed, but he put up a good fight.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Thursday, October 28, 2004 7:12 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Grounded, holy cow, something about Angel Season 5 that you liked?



It's S4 I hate. S5 was good but not great :)

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Thursday, October 28, 2004 9:26 AM

CRAZYHORSE


Quote:



Comparing both finales for a moment, I wasn't spoiled for Spike's return to Angel in Season 5, so I thought they actually killed him. I was really upset over that, and yeah, I bawled like a baby, but Wesley's death affected me so much more.




Quote:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law



First off... I LOVE BIRDMAN, *and* Stephen Colbert who voices him *applauds the quote*

and secondly and more to the point, lol, I didn't realize spike was coming back either, and it really upset me that Joss killed him off. It also sucked the way he ended Anya. I mean it was heroic of her and all, but... nyah, I didn't want her to die, lol.

"...what'd yall order a dead guy for?"

"Oh I got respect, i'm just sayin'... GOLD"

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Thursday, October 28, 2004 10:26 AM

GROUNDED


They wrecked Anya over the course of S4/5 so by the time she snuffed it I really couldn't bring myself to care about it.

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