ANGELUS ARCANUM

WB Renews ANGEL!! Spike Aboard!! Cordy Not!!

POSTED BY: BRTICK
UPDATED: Monday, May 26, 2003 10:21
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Sunday, May 11, 2003 7:55 PM

BRTICK


WB Renews ANGEL!! Spike Aboard!! Cordy Not!!

Monday’s Variety reports "‘Angel’ – with new cast addition James Marsters - is taking flight for a fifth season on the WB.” It’s for a full season, according to the trade paper. But founding cast member Charisma Carpenter “is not expected to return as a series regular

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=15184

Keep Flying!

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Monday, May 12, 2003 1:53 AM

SERENITYVALLEY


Yay Spike! Aw, why isn't Charisma coming back?

"Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?" -Wash
"I told him to sit down," -Simon

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Monday, May 12, 2003 3:50 AM

CYRIDEL


Hopefully it was an amicable departure by Charisma so she can concentrate on her new baby. I'd hate to think that there is bad blood between CC and the rest of the cast...especially with all the rumours flying around about SMG.

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Monday, May 12, 2003 5:42 AM

HJERMSTED


Should be interesting to see how/why Spike gets recruited by Angel, Wolfram and Hart.

To tell the truth, I'm not all that sad about Cordy leaving. I sensed that since she became pregnant, Charisma was kinda phoning her performances in. I hadn't enjoyed the Cordy character since season three.

However, with Cordy gone there definitely needs to be more Lilah, Gwen or some new lady lead. I still want to see Kate the (ex?) cop come back.

mattro

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Monday, May 12, 2003 5:55 AM

LOSTANGEL


Sigh......

And after that dream I had last night with Spike in it, this just makes my day!

______________________
Lost Angel

WASH: Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
ZOE: We live in a space ship, dear.
WASH: So?


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Monday, May 12, 2003 8:25 AM

MELEE


AAAH! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

*curls up into a little ball of unhappiness*

As an A/C fan, and someone who has always had Cordy marked as my favorite character... this is very bittersweet news... dunno if I'll even be watching next year if this turns out to be accurate... *sigh*

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Monday, May 12, 2003 12:02 PM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS


Hate to nitpick, and I know this was in the papers and all, but with two episodes to go, I'm a little annoyed to know Spike will make it past the end of Buffy. Not that I necessarily expected him to die, but until now I thought it was a possibility.

I try to stay spoiler-free, and maybe nobody else considers this a spoiler, but as it was in a thread heading and all... Kinda hard to avoid

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Monday, May 12, 2003 12:21 PM

HJERMSTED


Quote:

Hate to nitpick, and I know this was in the papers and all, but with two episodes to go, I'm a little annoyed to know Spike will make it past the end of Buffy. Not that I necessarily expected him to die, but until now I thought it was a possibility.

I try to stay spoiler-free, and maybe nobody else considers this a spoiler, but as it was in a thread heading and all... Kinda hard to avoid



All these announcements could still have an element of smoke screen in them. Or something unexpected could still happen to Spike in the last two BTVS eps.

Death and destruction are rarely enough to keep Whedon characters from re-appearing anyway. So even if Spike "fails to make it through" the end of Buffy, he could still show up in Angel next season.

Whatever happens I trust the Mutant Enemy crack writing staff will earn it and make the developments believable.

mattro

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Monday, May 12, 2003 12:51 PM

BRTICK


Quote:

I try to stay spoiler-free, and maybe nobody else considers this a spoiler, but as it was in a thread heading and all... Kinda hard to avoid


I apoligize, I was so excited I didn't think. it's worth pointing out, that if spike died it the season finale of buffy it wouldnt preclude him showing up on Angel next year. hell, maybe he'll lose that pesky soul in the process and be next years big bad on angel.

Keep Flying!

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Monday, May 12, 2003 1:31 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by Melee:
AAAH! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

*curls up into a little ball of unhappiness*

As an A/C fan, and someone who has always had Cordy marked as my favorite character... this is very bittersweet news... dunno if I'll even be watching next year if this turns out to be accurate... *sigh*



Aww, come on, she'll probably still show up. Look at Stargate, she might be like Daniel and be a regular the season after, and if you don't watch you'll be lost.

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Tuesday, May 13, 2003 6:50 PM

ZELDA


Also, all the official announcements came out today, and not one of them confirmed that CC wasn't going to be back next year. The only thing they said was that James Marsters will be joining - nothing at all about people leaving.

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Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:08 PM

ALANARU


Quote:

Originally posted by Cyridel:
Hopefully it was an amicable departure by Charisma so she can concentrate on her new baby. I'd hate to think that there is bad blood between CC and the rest of the cast...especially with all the rumours flying around about SMG.



GASPS!!!!!... What rumours... what the hell have I been missing.... ooooooo tell me tell me tell me tell me tell me... I'm all for gossip...

***gets out my pink pajamas and ties my hair in ponytails whilst settling down indian style in front of Cyridel***...

hehe...

if you wanted a quiet subservient bitch... take Angel... I'm unavailable...

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Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:12 PM

ALANARU


Quote:

Originally posted by Zelda:
Also, all the official announcements came out today, and not one of them confirmed that CC wasn't going to be back next year. The only thing they said was that James Marsters will be joining - nothing at all about people leaving.



I normally hate posting right after I have already posted... but I just wanted to say that the WB station in the States doesn't acknowledge Vincent or Charisma coming back... Neither are in the cast list... though that doesn't mean special appearances are voided out...

hope that was helpful...

________________________________________________

if you wanted a quiet subservient bitch... take Angel... I'm unavailable...

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Sunday, May 18, 2003 11:12 PM

CYRIDEL


Quote:

GASPS!!!!!... What rumours... what the hell have I been missing.... ooooooo tell me tell me tell me tell me tell me... I'm all for gossip...

***gets out my pink pajamas and ties my hair in ponytails whilst settling down indian style in front of Cyridel***...

hehe...

if you wanted a quiet subservient bitch... take Angel... I'm unavailable...





Basically just the stuff that's been going around that she's been becoming more and more difficult to work with and the whole situation where she didn't even tell Alyson Hannigan or Nick Brendon about her decision to quit Buffy at the end of this season. Alyson supposedly found out by reading an interview in a magazine that Sarah had given.

So looking back, I may have made it sound a lot worse than it actually is. But hey, that's what makes rumours fun!

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Tuesday, May 20, 2003 5:23 AM

SERENITYVALLEY


Do you know who I want to see back more than anything? Lindsey McDonald.
Am I the only one or are there other Christian Kane fans out there.

Who do YOU want to see return to Angel (either X-angel people or Buffy people)?

"Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?" -Wash
"I told him to sit down," -Simon

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Tuesday, May 20, 2003 8:21 AM

ZEKE023


Quote:

Originally posted by SerenityValley:

Who do YOU want to see return to Angel (either X-angel people or Buffy people)?



I WANT TO SEE KATE COME BACK!

-Zeke

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Tuesday, May 20, 2003 8:38 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


I know that thos doesnt meet the whole Angel or Buffy thing, but just once i want to see an angel. Maybe they had a few and I missed them, but I'd like to see an angel show up, with all of these demons runing around there must be an angel or two doing something. And there are so many demon spawn, but you never get to see the angel spawn (Nephalim.)

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Tuesday, May 20, 2003 9:11 AM

LJSQUARED


Wouldn't that be Buffy? or Faith, or Dawn.



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Tuesday, May 20, 2003 12:46 PM

INVISIBLEGREEN


Currently, I have seen confirmation that Spike is on and Connor is off, but nothing official or even semi-official about Cordy. Although E-Online's Kristin did say that

Select to view spoiler:


Mercedes McNab (Harmony) might come on as a replacement for Cordy

in the same way that Wesley replaced Doyle.

And Zeke, give it up, Kate's not coming back. Elisabeth Röhm's too busy on "Law & Order", and it wouldn't make since in the story.

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Tuesday, May 20, 2003 3:57 PM

SERENITYVALLEY


Well after tonight's ep of Buffy, I wonder how Spike will move over to LA (if ya know what I mean).

Well Wes was a sorry excuse of a replacement for Doyle. And as for the replacement of Cordy, oh dear, please no. Bring back Lidnsey! Not *cough*

"Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?" -Wash
"I told him to sit down," -Simon

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Tuesday, May 20, 2003 6:33 PM

LIVINGIMPAIRED


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
I know that thos doesnt meet the whole Angel or Buffy thing, but just once i want to see an angel. Maybe they had a few and I missed them, but I'd like to see an angel show up, with all of these demons runing around there must be an angel or two doing something. And there are so many demon spawn, but you never get to see the angel spawn (Nephalim.)



They've never had angels in the Christian sense on the show. In fact, considering Joss Whedon is a atheist, I seriously doubt there will ever be any. One of the constant themes of the Buffyverse is its consistant refusal to confirm or deny the superiority of any religion over another. Despite the poliferation of religious icons in the Buffy mythos (ie, vampires repelled by crosses, holy water, and the Bible), the existance of a Judeo-Christian God is repeatidly placed in the "maybe" column. (For example, see Buffy's conversation with Holden Webster in "Conversations With Dead People") Joss Whedon has repeatidly dogged this issue:

Quote:

"Aggg! Stupid crosses! They were in the stories, okay, and we hadda use 'em and now I'm always worried, how do I explain crosses working on all vampires, maybe no one will notice and I can just NOT MENTION IT!!! ... Actually, during my little rant I came up with an answer. It isn't the person who reviles the symbol of the Christian God, it's the demon that possesses them. Whew! It's cool. We're cool"

-- Joss Whedon, Bronze posting, 18/04/2000



Considering the amount of humor poked in the direction of Christianity and other religions, I seriously doubt that there will ever be an episode where Buffy or Angel find Jesus.

Perhaps they haven't checked their sock drawer.


P.S. For anyone interested in further discussions on this topic, I recommend the book Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Philosophy, an excelent and accesible collection of essays.

________________

CONSERVATIVE YOUNG WOMAN: Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal savior?
BUFFY: Well you know I meant to, and then I was busy all day...

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Wednesday, May 21, 2003 4:07 AM

ZEKE023


SPIKE IS DEAD! How can he be on Angel?

James Marsters may be in the season as the First (who is defeated, but not dead), or just in flash backs.

*sigh*

-Zeke

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Wednesday, May 21, 2003 4:45 AM

SERENITYVALLEY


Actually, you know what I was thinking. (this isn't meant to be a spoiler b/c I don't know if it will happen, its just my idea)

The prophecy said the father will kill the son, even though it wasn't suppose to happen, it did, didn't it? I didn't see the last ep, but didn't Angel sort of kill Conner in a way? And since things were written as masculin forms it could mean the father will kill the child, like it's already been stated on the site and Conner killed Jasmine. so if prophecies are coming true, what about "the vampire with a soul will become human"? It didn't say it was the same vampire as the one with a son. Could Spike possibly come back as human????

"Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?" -Wash
"I told him to sit down," -Simon

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Wednesday, May 21, 2003 4:45 AM

HJERMSTED


My guess is that Spike is now among the PTB.

Or maybe Marsters will play an entirely new character.

I'm sure Angel will be fun next year regardless!

mattro

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Wednesday, May 21, 2003 5:34 AM

ETERNALS


I'm actually hoping that in the end Angel will get with Buffy by becoming Human. Call me a romantic, but that would be perfect.

The best Angel ep in my opinion is the one where he kills the demon with the healing blood, and becomes human when his blood intermingles with that of the demon. Very good, very prophetic, and totally awesome. The scene where he is eating everything under the sun is hilarious.

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Wednesday, May 21, 2003 8:33 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


LivingImpaired, I don't think that there would have to be any religious conformation to have an angel. If you can have hell without confirming a religion than I don’t see why not angels. Although angels are generally confined to Judeo-Christian-Muslim faiths certainly winged workers from higher good powers exist in many religions Nike, Eros, Nyx, Thriae, are just a few of the bigger ones from Greek mythology. There are more from all kinds of others.

When I say angel I just mean a being that is as powerful as a demon of equally pure blood (remember that angel and Buffy never face a pure demon nor a fully functioning god) and is for the most part good. Wings are of course a nice touch.

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Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:08 AM

ZEKE023


I didn't read this whole discussion - but I believe that the Buffyverse IS a polytheistic world with Christianity as its elusive but most powerful truth.

Crosses and Holy water kill vampires. Only christian icons work - even willow (A jew) wards off vampires with a cross.

Remember in the second season when Spike and the rest of the vampires were all bragging about being at the crucifiction?

There are other gods - but they are fickle and can help or not, and the dark magics they allow you to have can hurt or kill you.
The only purely good stuff here is Christian.

I don't think this is a statement of anything other than most western Vampire myths come from a Christian tradition and this is trying to catch that feel. But I still think it's true.

-Zeke

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Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:42 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Actually there are all kinds of vampire myths from all over the world, but the western one is the most common, and the one that they chose to use.

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Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:58 AM

NICOLA


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
Actually there are all kinds of vampire myths from all over the world, but the western one is the most common, and the one that they chose to use.



These myths are the ones that the western world is most familiar with, but I wouldn't assume that they are the most common.

Quote:

Originally posted by Zeke023:
I didn't read this whole discussion - but I believe that the Buffyverse IS a polytheistic world with Christianity as its elusive but most powerful truth.

Crosses and Holy water kill vampires. Only christian icons work - even willow (A jew) wards off vampires with a cross.

Remember in the second season when Spike and the rest of the vampires were all bragging about being at the crucifiction?

There are other gods - but they are fickle and can help or not, and the dark magics they allow you to have can hurt or kill you.
The only purely good stuff here is Christian.

I don't think this is a statement of anything other than most western Vampire myths come from a Christian tradition and this is trying to catch that feel. But I still think it's true.

-Zeke



Actually, I strongly disagree. In the Buffyverse Christianity is just one of many traditions. It isn't even the strongest one (i.e., Osiris who can bring back the dead is an ancient Egyptian!).

And Christianity is not 'the only purely good stuff'. I mean what the heck was Caleb if not a Christian minister gone evil!


My mother taught me to respect religion, but to be wary of people who use piety as a license to run other people's lives.

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Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:33 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED


Well, I am of the opinion that anyone who believes that Buffy or Angel promotes Christianity as the One True Faith, obviously hasn't seen many episodes, or obviously wasn't paying attention. Although we know that crosses repel vampires, how do we know that stars or David do not? Or ankhs? Or the Tora? Or statues of Buddha? My point being, that while Christian symbols repel vampires, we have no reason to believe that other symbols of faith would not have the same effect. After all, in many common vampire tales, it is not the symbol, but the faith behind it that repulses the monster.

The Buffyverse is a world where Evil isn't some abstract concept, but a tangible one. Demons, and vampires, and lawyers are solid forces of evil that must be fought. However, Good is consistantly intangible. Slayers cannot be said to represent the divine protector, as they are creations of men, and are moraly only human. (coughFaithcough) The Powers That Be clearly do not represent God, as there are more than one of them, and they also are shown to be occasionally corrupt. (coughJasminecough) So while Evil and Good both exist in the Buffyverse, Evil is the only one that presents itself in a tangable form.

If you think about it, this is not so strange an idea. Turn on the evening news, and you'll see just how f---ed up our world is. Evil, in a more general sense, is very real. However, how many times have you walked down the street, and a nearby bush spontaneously combusts and talks to you? The whole point of the Christian God is that he will not prove his own existance, because proof denys faith, and with out faith he is nothing. (for more on this topic, see the Proof that God Does Not Exist, in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.) God is by nature intangible.

In this way, yet again, the Buffyverse serves as an excellent mirror into our own lifes.

________________

No, it feels okay. Strong, and I feel like I'm connected to a powerful all-consuming evil that's gonna suck the world into fiery oblivion. What about you?

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Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:49 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by Nicola:
These myths are the ones that the western world is most familiar with, but I wouldn't assume that they are the most common.


I would, and did. I am fairly sure that the rabies confusion with vampires made the western version most popular. The fact that there were real and recurring documented, provable cases of vampires made the western version the most well known (I believe). It took science a bit to figure out what these vampires really were, but by then word had already gotten around. So I am pretty sure that the multitude of verifiable reports made the western one the most common.

Quote:

And Christianity is not 'the only purely good stuff'. I mean what the heck was Caleb if not a Christian minister gone evil!


I'm sorry but I think that’s sad. Caleb isn't meant to personify Christianity, or what can happen with it. He isn’t there to be a symbol that says, “See look, a Christian gone bad, the faith isn’t pure.” How about we step back from our assumptions and listen to what the people who did it said. They said that it was just put there to make fun of a stereotype, and that was the whole reason. So unless they’re lying how about you leave your symbolism at home on this one and truth them that that is all it was meant to do.

Quote:

My mother taught me to respect religion, but to be wary of people who use piety as a license to run other people's lives.



Smart mother, listen to her.

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Thursday, May 22, 2003 12:48 AM

DRAKON


"Demons, and vampires, and lawyers are solid forces of evil that must be fought." Amen!

But seriously, on the subject of Good and Evil, I think it is a bit more complex than simply pointing out demons and lawyers are tangible evils. It is not what a person is, but what he does that makes him good or evil. I mean we have seen good demons, Spike's rather saggy friend comes to mind.

If you hurt me, that is bad, for me. And it may motivate me to do unto you the same as you done to me. But it is not your existence, it is what you do with it that determines whether I see you as good or bad. Whether you are good or bad.

When talking about morality and good and evil, you have to understand that there is a reason behind all those rules. Even if you don't get the reason, even if the reasons have been left in the dust of history, it is still there. And the fact that the rules works, that they perpetuate the existence of a civilization and species, is something in and of itself. Those things that promote and help perpetuate themselves continue living. Those rules that get their followers killed off, the rules die with them, and they serve as a justification for why others don't want to do that.

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Thursday, May 22, 2003 3:32 AM

ZEKE023


Quote:

Originally posted by LivingImpaired:
My point being, that while Christian symbols repel vampires, we have no reason to believe that other symbols of faith would not have the same effect. After all, in many common vampire tales, it is not the symbol, but the faith behind it that repulses the monster.

Only in White Wolf's Role-Playing games is it the faith that repels the demons. In myth it's the symbol. Even in the buffyverse - Willow (in season 2) does an uninvitation ritual using Christian crosses. She's Jewish. If it was faith and not. Also in season two Willow uses a scapular to ward off the evil wraith/ghost in the school - that's a Virgin Mary tradition... Willow's still Jewish. And Spike doesn't rant about the Buddha's death - he brags about the Crucifiction.

And hey - I'm not arguing that Christianity is the one true faith. I'm simply arguing that in Wester vampire myth it is. And Buffy keeps that feeling - and adds a little modern flavor. It's one of the reasons I like the show.

I, myself, am not proseltyzing Christianity. I hold half a master's degree in Comparative Religion. I'm pretty open minded and informed on the topic.

-Zeke

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Friday, May 23, 2003 8:26 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED


Quote:

Originally posted by zeke023:
Only in White Wolf's Role-Playing games is it the faith that repels the demons. In myth it's the symbol. Even in the buffyverse - Willow (in season 2) does an uninvitation ritual using Christian crosses. She's Jewish. If it was faith and not. Also in season two Willow uses a scapular to ward off the evil wraith/ghost in the school - that's a Virgin Mary tradition... Willow's still Jewish. And Spike doesn't rant about the Buddha's death - he brags about the Crucifiction.



On the contrary, I have read in numerous vampire tales, that it is the faith behind the symbol, and not the symbol itself. The Anita Blake books and the movie Fright Night come to mind. And I am in no way implying that it is the faith of the person whielding the cross that is important, but the faith of every person in the world--the code of goodness and morality the symbol represents. After all, Buffy is agnostic, and the cross works for her. In "Beneath You," Spike leans against a cross, which burns him, yet no one was holding it.

Oh, and I completly agree with the point already made by a previous poster that a person's / creature's actions are what decide whether a person is "good" or "evil." However, I was merely pointing out that Good and Evil weren't just words in the Buffyverse, they are real things. Joss Whedon clearly hasn't created a Nietzscheian universe where the actions that define good and evil are fairly arbitary things assigned by society.

________________

XANDER: I'm just saying, once you get the soul, doesn't that mean you start, like, picking up your own wet towels off the floor?
WILLOW: No. But maybe you start feeling really bad about leaving them there.

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Sunday, May 25, 2003 12:52 PM

TALRIUS


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
And there are so many demon spawn, but you never get to see the angel spawn (Nephalim.)



An interesting choice. I don't know where you learned of a Nephilim from. (Hopefully not from the movie The Prophecy, 2 and 3.) A Nephilim IS a demon spawn. For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, pick up a Bible and turn to Genesis 6:4.

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days - and also afterward - when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heros of old, men of renown. -New International Version Translation.

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men men whichwere of old, men of renown. - King James Version Translation

Nephilim: The fallen ones.

Now, most interpreters believe that the Nephilim was the product of sexual union of Angel and a human woman. This is the most accepted version. Not the one I believe, but I won't get into that. Anyway, the Nephilim was one of the reasons God destroyed the earth(The flood). That along with man turning to his wickedness. "The Lord saw how great man's wickedness had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time." Genesis 6:5.

You have to remember in the Bible there are two types of angels. God's ones and the ones that fell with Lucifer. The Bible refers to Lucifer's as both demons and angels. Because they were angels and still are.)

There is also the possiblity that some of the good angels sinned against God; after Lucifer's war in heaven, by taking the daughters of man. Thus condeming themselves with Lucifer's lot. Either way the Nephilim were bad.

Connor kinda reminded me of one. Except being born from two demons.

Here endeth the lesson.

__________________________________________________
DOBSON: I'm supposed to be meeting my wife's sister. I've only got a few days to see her...

ZOE: I wish there was another way...

DOBSON: Oh, no, no. That woman is like a dragon. I mean, I believe she has a tail. If there's any other moons we need to visit, or if we could just fly very slowly...

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Sunday, May 25, 2003 3:26 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Interesting you should mention Lucifer, that wasn’t the devil’s name. Sorry, bad translation. Was I fact a prince who was not in the favor of god.

“Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language?”

“In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference.” –Lifted from some scholarly work. (A Pilgrim's Path)

Now, common misnomer aside, we come to your timeline. First fell good ol’ bad guy, I’ll call him “Lucifer” just because the reference to Venus (the planet) with respect to the chief enemy of god is a good one. So you contend that first Fell Lucifer, then came genesis chapter 6. The order is wrong, if we are to assume that the enemy of man, the guy who tired to make Job curse God, Is the enemy of god mentioned in the New Testament then we must accept that the falling took place between the Torah and New Testament. The Old Testament makes no mention of fallen angels, nor does it state that there is a Hell.

Sorry, but if Gehenna is Hell then we should all be so lucky as to go there. It is now lush, just as the scriptures promised. The other mentions are in fact the word grave, and dead is different from eternal torture. I really think that people should have worked to translate the bible better. Current translations are better, the Jerusalem is generally regarded as the best, although the Catholics have made their own. The King James is the worst of the lot, out done by the New American Bible (presumably the old American is a better version too, if there is one) The International beats out the New American. There are other Bibles but I don’t know as much about them.

The fact is that in the Old Testament Satan is the tester of man, under god, in the new he is the full-fledged enemy of the divine. So Genesis 6 came before the fall of one third of the host. Many Apocryphal books call it the little fall, or the precursor of the big fall. In these works the angels who had kids with people (as well as taught people bad things like herb craft, astrology, divination and sorcery.)

In Sammuel 19:9 it says god controls evil (most of the rest of the bible says he controls good) so back in the day god held all the cards.

And yes, there is debate about who the Nephilim were, for one thing they are described as heroes, but they are also described as being nasty. Some speculate that they were the heroes of old as in Greek Heroes, this would say that Hercules (and those like him) was a product of the union between angels and people, not a god and a person.

It is interesting that you should say that the flood was partially to wipe them out, and that they aren’t the kids of angels. This is because it is the same Apocrypha that says they are the kids of angels that says they are part of the reason for the flood.

Here ends the counter lesson, do not take offense.

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Monday, May 26, 2003 8:37 AM

BEANNACHD


Quote:

Originally posted by Talrius:
Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
And there are so many demon spawn, but you never get to see the angel spawn (Nephalim.)



Nephilim: The fallen ones.

Now, most interpreters believe that the Nephilim was the product of sexual union of Angel and a human woman. This is the most accepted version. Not the one I believe, but I won't get into that. Anyway, the Nephilim was one of the reasons God destroyed the earth(The flood). That along with man turning to his wickedness. "The Lord saw how great man's wickedness had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time." Genesis 6:5.

My question would be - if the Christian God so valued free will that he gave his children choice, why would it be evil for women to sleep with angels? If that's what they choose?
Oh, sorry, I forgot - it's not about good and evil, as in causing harm, it's about CONTROL.


There is also the possiblity that some of the good angels sinned against God; after Lucifer's war in heaven, by taking the daughters of man. Thus condeming themselves with Lucifer's lot. Either way the Nephilim were bad.

How is that bad, again? Just because they didn't follow orders? I tend to agree with Heinlein - "The only sin is in hurting someone else unnecessarily. Hurting oneself is not a sin, just stupid."

Connor kinda reminded me of one. Except being born from two demons.


Connor was a tortured soul, resulting from what was done to him, not from what he was. If he had been raised other than in a hell dimension, by someone who loved him as opposed to someone bent on making him a tool for revenge, he may have turned out differently.
His problem was with the people around him, not with the manner of his birth.
He had a soul - was NOT a demon, even if he was born of them. He was NOT evil, he was tortured and broken.
Big difference.




"You mock my pain!" - Princess Buttercup
"Life is pain, Princess. Anyone who says differently is selling something." - Dread Pirate Roberts/ Wesley

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Monday, May 26, 2003 10:21 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by beannachd:
I tend to agree with Heinlein - "The only sin is in hurting someone else unnecessarily. Hurting oneself is not a sin, just stupid."

"You mock my pain!" - Princess Buttercup
"Life is pain, Princess. Anyone who says differently is selling something." - Dread Pirate Roberts/ Wesley



I would tend to agree, Heinlein was a smart guy.

The Old Testament and the New present two very different gods. Actually a lot of religions said that god didn't like freewill (they said this as an argument against Jefferson’s beliefs in freedom of speech.) Regardless, Jesus is very different from the god of the Old Testament, so it’s hard to compare the actions of god in Genesis to Christianity, but back then it did seem to be about control.

If you take the deep interpretation of this you screw up your faith, after all Jesus did curse gods name, and was rather angry at him, which doesn’t make sense for monotheistic trinity, nor does it go well for the belief that god and Jesus are together on all things, which in turn means that you have to doubt whether Jesus can come through on what he says.

Like all things religious it boils down to faith.

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