Real World Event Discussions

Accident or Not? Malaysian Airliner shot down.

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Sunday, August 2, 2026 16:14
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CHRISISALL

Friday, July 18, 2014 12:44 AM (P)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/17/us-ukraine-crisis-airplane-i
dUSKBN0FM22N20140717

295 dead there. That's pretty fucked up.

AURAPTOR

Friday, July 18, 2014 12:53 AM (P)

Sucks. Lotta fog of war stuff going on now too...

Thoughts & sympathies to those affected.

JONGSSTRAW

Friday, July 18, 2014 12:54 AM (P)

A passenger jet cruising at 32,000 feet taken out with a missile! That's a hellava war they got going on over there in Ukraine. I bet none of the passengers who boarded in Amsterdam had any clue their jet would be flying over a war zone.

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 18, 2014 1:01 AM (P)

Question is, did Russia do it? That would make them look like trigger-happy bullies. If it was Ukraine, that'll put them in the doghouse on the World stage and their situation will worsen...

AURAPTOR

Friday, July 18, 2014 1:23 AM (P)

Many many questions here.

JONGSSTRAW

Friday, July 18, 2014 5:10 AM (P)

...Russian separatists took control recently of a Ukrainian military base and got their hands on BUK Guided Missiles. They showed pictures of them on their websites.

...Russian separatists shot down 2 Ukrainian military planes during the last week.

...Doesn't seem that hard to figure out who shot down this commercial airliner.

...Why the hell was Malaysian Airlines flying over that airspace? All airlines were warned back in April to avoid that region.

...Who the hell would even get on a Malaysian Airlines plane after the flight 370 fiasco?

AURAPTOR

Friday, July 18, 2014 5:59 AM (P)

This wasn't some simple fire and forget shoulder rocket. This was serious big boy hardware, requiring synced radar, a fixed pad or at least a mobile rocket launcher and a command structure to give the word to push the button or not. This wasn't Igor and Dimitry , getting faced on Vodka and randomly pushing buttons for kicks. The ones who let this dog off its chain had serious military training.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Friday, July 18, 2014 6:18 AM (P)

Looks like MAS were flying over a war zone to cut costs.

American pilots had been warned since April not to fly over large swathes of Ukraine because of escalating hostilities in the east of the country but it appears other airlines did not issue similar precautions.

Why did MH17 fly over Ukraine?

No flyzone now in force ... All commercial flights are now avoiding the area in Ukraine where Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was "shot down". Picture: FlightRadar / Twitter

UPDATING STORY: Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 ‘shot down’

NATIONALITIES: Revealed who was on board flight MH17

The Federal Aviation Administration posted the warning on April 23, particularly over parts of Crimea and the east.

Today, several airline chiefs immediately ordered their aircraft to avoid the region until further notice.

A British Airways spokeswoman said tonight: “The safety and security of our customers is always our top priority.

“Our flights are not using Ukrainian airspace with the exception of our once-a-day service between Heathrow and Kiev. We are keeping this service under review but Kiev is several hundred kilometres from the incident site.”

Italy’s Alitalia airline said it would divert its flights away from eastern Ukrainian airspace as had Virgin Atlantic

“Our thoughts are with all involved in the recent Malaysian Airlines incident,” a spokesman said. “We are closely monitoring the situation and as a precautionary measure are re-routing a small number of flights this evening.”.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/international-aviation-authorities-cl
ose-ukraine-airspace-after-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down/story-fniztvne-1226993033683

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 18, 2014 7:30 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

This wasn't some simple fire and forget shoulder rocket. This was serious big boy hardware

Atypically, I must agree with you here.

AURAPTOR

Friday, July 18, 2014 7:35 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

This wasn't some simple fire and forget shoulder rocket. This was serious big boy hardware
Atypically, I must agree with you here.

Wouldn't be the first time the Russians have knowingly fired upon a passenger airline.

ELVISCHRIST

Friday, July 18, 2014 8:09 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

This wasn't some simple fire and forget shoulder rocket. This was serious big boy hardware
Atypically, I must agree with you here.

Wouldn't be the first time the Russians have knowingly fired upon a passenger airline.

Americans have done the same.

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 18, 2014 8:10 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by ELVISCHRIST:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

This wasn't some simple fire and forget shoulder rocket. This was serious big boy hardware
Atypically, I must agree with you here.

Wouldn't be the first time the Russians have knowingly fired upon a passenger airline.

Americans have done the same.

Ooops all around.

AURAPTOR

Friday, July 18, 2014 8:21 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by ELVISCHRIST:

Americans have done the same.

Cite where ,if you can.

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 18, 2014 8:59 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by ELVISCHRIST:

Americans have done the same.

Cite where ,if you can.

So, not a history buff, eh?

ELVISCHRIST

Friday, July 18, 2014 9:01 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by ELVISCHRIST:

Americans have done the same.

Cite where ,if you can.

Do your own homework. No fair copying off others.

SIGNYM

Friday, July 18, 2014 10:20 AM (P)

Ukraine Releases YouTube Clip "Proving" Rebels Shot Down Malaysian Flight MH-17
Tyler Durden's picture

Almost exactly one year ago, the world was nearly brought to the verge of a global war by proxy involving the US and Russia (and Europe and China) over a staged, false flag YouTube clip "proving" the Assad regime had used toxic gas (gas that was made in Britain as it was later revealed) to kill several hundred civilians in the country's ongoing war against what subsequently turned out to be al-Qaeda funded and trained rebels (and which now are fighting across the border with another former US-puppet state, Iraq). Luckily, back then an all out confrontation was averted in the last minute over what was ultimately nothing but a gambit by Qatar to have its gas pipeline enter Europe and leave Gazprom in the cold (literally and metaphorically).

A year later, it is deja vu all over again, when the same energy and geopolitical tensions (Europe, natural gas, etc) are once again at the frontline, and while the theater of combat may be different, the same key players - Russia and the US - are once again behind the proxy conflict in Ukraine, and where Gazprom is once again the fulcrum party. The only missing link was a YouTube clip which would bring the world to the edge of war again.

Moments ago Ukraine released what may be just that missing "YouTube" link, when it unveiled a 2:23 minute video supposedly proving that "militants of "Bes" group shot down with a Russian anti-aircraft missile a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 passenger jet heading from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur."

In the clip, Ukraine presents what it alleges are several recorded conversations, first of all between a pro-Russian separatist and his coordinator Vasyl Geranin, who is said to be a colonel of the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces. In summary, this conversation talks about the downing of a jet. There is no distinction whether this is a civilian or a military jet, and may well refer to the shot down Ukrainian Su-25 which we reported earlier today was shot down overnight, and which Ukraine at first claimed had been shot down by a Russian warplane, something which Russia promptly denied hours later (and before the Malaysian Airline tragedy happened).

The purported smoking gun is "revealed" in the second section which begins 43 seconds and lasting one minute in between a "Major" and "Grek" who are also allegedly Russian rebels. It is here that the conversation goes into explicit detail describing the contents of the downed airplane, and makes it clear that it is a civilian airplane, describing the civilian carnage, and stopping just why of naming this a Malaysian Airlines flight.

This is the key segment as it explicitly makes it clear that the plane the alleged separatists in the first part were talking about was not the Su-25 but MH 17. The only problem is that there is absolutely no way to confirm who "Major" and "Grek" are, and considering the entire Ukraine civil war has been merely one provocation and counter-provocation after another, explicitly staged in advance by either the CIA on the side of Kiev or the Kremlin on the Russian side, one does have to wonder whether the said two "smoking gun" participants aren't merely two random people speaking Russian and reading off a script?

The clip concludes with another unnamed "Militant" who supposedly is speaking to Mykola Kozitsyn, one of the purported leaders of the Cossacks operating in east Ukraine. The Militant makes it clear to Kozitsyn that it is not a military plane and has "Malaysian Airlines" written on the side. One wonders just where one could find such writing on the side of the crashed and exploded fuselage but that one is for the forensics to decide.

In other words, if indeed all the participants in this YouTube are as they have been presented, then surely this does put the pro-Russian rebel

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 18, 2014 10:46 AM (P)

How many of you see the play-out of fossil fuel as a catalyst for conflict?

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Friday, July 18, 2014 11:53 AM (P)

About 100 of the 298 people killed in the Malaysia Airlines crash were heading to Melbourne for a major AIDS conference, conference attendees have been told.

Delegates at a pre-conference in Sydney were told on Friday morning that about 100 medical researchers, health workers and activists were on the plane that went down near the Russia-Ukraine border, including former International AIDS Society president Joep Lange.
Joep Lange.

Joep Lange. Photo: aighd.org

Health researcher Clive Aspin, who is attending the pre-conference, said the news had hit everyone hard, coming 16 years after AIDS research pioneer Jonathan Mann also died in a plane crash.

"Yet again, we're devastated by a similar tragedy," he said. "It's going to be a very sombre mood at the conference in Melbourne, especially for those of us who have been coming to these conferences for many years."

Organisers of the International AIDS Conference, due to begin in Melbourne on Sunday , have not released numbers, but did confirm expected attendees were among the dead.
WHO media adviser Glenn Thomnas.

Glenn Thomas. Photo: Twitter

"A number of colleagues and friends en route to attend the 20th International AIDS Conference taking place in Melbourne, Australia, were on board the Malaysia Airlines MH17 flight that has crashed over Ukraine," Michael Kessler of the International AIDS Society (IAS) said in a statement.

"At this incredibly sad and sensitive time the IAS stands with our international family and sends condolences to the loved ones of those who have been lost to this tragedy."

The passenger plane had been flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was shot down, killing all 298 people on board. It was due to connect with another Malaysia Airlines flight scheduled to arrive in Melbourne on Friday night. Many medical researchers have expressed sympathy online upon hearing that both World Health Organisation (WHO) staff and well-known HIV researchers had died in the crash.

Friends and colleagues of Dutch HIV researcher Dr Joep Lange took to social media to express shock that he was among the victims. Dr Lange had been researching HIV for 30 years.

‘‘He was a kind man and a true humanitarian,’’ US medical professor Seema Yasmin wrote in a series of tweets dedicated to him. ‘‘How do we measure how much a person has done for humanity? People like Joep change the course of epidemics.’’ Dr Yasmin could not be immediately contacted.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/crash-claims-top-aids-researchers-headi
ng-to-melbourne-20140718-zuaw3.html#ixzz37nRi5jhE

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Friday, July 18, 2014 11:54 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
How many of you see the play-out of fossil fuel as a catalyst for conflict?

Just the free market doing its thang, dontchya know

AGENTROUKA

Friday, July 18, 2014 2:06 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
About 100 of the 298 people killed in the Malaysia Airlines crash were heading to Melbourne for a major AIDS conference, conference attendees have been told.

Crap.

There is just no bottom to this bucket of awful.

I don't think this was intentional. No one benefits. This was probably gross incompetence by, likely, Ukrainian separatists, and the only thing to hope for is that this horrid tragedy will cause some people to start deescalating this hot mess.

Malaysian Airlines, flying over that area to save money? If that's true, I don't even know what they were thinking.

AURAPTOR

Friday, July 18, 2014 6:14 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by ELVISCHRIST:

Americans have done the same.

Cite where ,if you can.
So, not a history buff, eh?

More than most, actually. I see no citation, which leads me to conclude that you don't have squat.

Again.

But here's a hint for you children who might not have been taught this...

Newsweek Rewind: When Korean Air Lines Flight 007 Was Shot Down

ELVISCHRIST

Friday, July 18, 2014 7:10 PM (P)

A history buff who has zero recollection of America shooting down an airliner full of civilians?

Huh.

My guess is that if a Democrat were president when it happened, you'd still be crying about it. But for some amazing reason, you can't remember it at all now. That selective memory must be very convenient for you.

AURAPTOR

Friday, July 18, 2014 7:14 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisChrist:
A history buff who has zero recollection of America shooting down an airliner full of civilians?

Huh.

My guess is that if a Democrat were president when it happened, you'd still be crying about it. But for some amazing reason, you can't remember it at all now. That selective memory must be very convenient for you.

And still, no citation of any sort where the US KNOWINGLY shot down a civilian airliner.

Color me not surprised, at all.

KPO

Friday, July 18, 2014 7:35 PM (P)

Iran 1988, rap. It was new to me as well - though I was 4 at the time.

The BIG question now is whether the separatists managed to get their hands on the weaponry for this attack from captured Ukrainian stockpiles - or whether it came directly from Russia. If the latter, this could be the beginning of the end for Putin. Either way this is permanently damaging to him.

Another big question is how many, if any, US citizens were on board.

It's not personal. It's just war.

AURAPTOR

Friday, July 18, 2014 7:47 PM (P)

Knew of that, but that doesn't fit the criteria.

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 18, 2014 7:49 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Another big question is how many, if any, US citizens were on board.

Supposedly 23.

And, for Rappy to find a way to dismiss:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

(and btw, NO, it was not 'knowingly' shot down as a plane full of civiees, but then I'm guessing this new Malaysian one wasn't either)

SHINYGOODGUY

Friday, July 18, 2014 7:51 PM (P)

The latest I heard was that warnings were issued, but airlines want to save money and flying over Ukraine is the most direct route to Asia and so forth.

Now all airlines have issued a No Fly zone over Ukraine. Something tells me that the Malaysia Airlines officials may have known about the call for caution flying over that region.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
A passenger jet cruising at 32,000 feet taken out with a missile! That's a hellava war they got going on over there in Ukraine. I bet none of the passengers who boarded in Amsterdam had any clue their jet would be flying over a war zone.

SHINYGOODGUY

Friday, July 18, 2014 7:57 PM (P)

I heard it just the opposite from a retired general who said that whoever let that bird fly was, and I'm paraphrasing, an "asshole" who committed the biggest Oops in history (well, not counting the Titanic).

Precisely because it is a sophisticated piece of weaponry and has specific radar and redundancies built in to identify commercial from military targets.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

This wasn't some simple fire and forget shoulder rocket. This was serious big boy hardware, requiring synced radar, a fixed pad or at least a mobile rocket launcher and a command structure to give the word to push the button or not. This wasn't Igor and Dimitry , getting faced on Vodka and randomly pushing buttons for kicks. The ones who let this dog off its chain had serious military training.

SHINYGOODGUY

Friday, July 18, 2014 8:05 PM (P)

Reports have been issued by Feinstein that the Separatists have claimed downing 7 or more aircraft in recent months of hostilities.

Gives new meaning to "guns don't kill people..."

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Question is, did Russia do it? That would make them look like trigger-happy bullies. If it was Ukraine, that'll put them in the doghouse on the World stage and their situation will worsen...

THGRRI

Friday, July 18, 2014 8:34 PM (P)

Let's see how the Europeans react. It was European civilians shot down. Will they hold Putin accountable?

JONGSSTRAW

Friday, July 18, 2014 8:44 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Malaysian Airlines, flying over that area to save money? If that's true, I don't even know what they were thinking.

Of course they knew. Everyone knew the separatists shot down 2 Ukrainian military planes this week, one of them carrying 50 people. Malaysian Airline officials made the decision to fly that route based on MONEY, and the pilot did what he was told. Horrifically irresponsible, but why anyone would expect anything different from that half-ass airlines is beyond me.

SIGNYM

Friday, July 18, 2014 9:02 PM (P)

Quote:
Let's see how the Europeans react. It was European civilians shot down. Will they hold Putin accountable?

You're making a big assumption there, aren't you? I wonder if this is going to be like the Syrian gas attack, where the west was so quick to jump on the bandwagon that Assad did it, only to see all of their "evidence" melt away. Yanno, kinda like Saddam's "WMD" and "Chavez' snipers" and Noriega's "major drug running operation".

SGG

Quote:
I heard it just the opposite from a retired general who said that whoever let that bird fly was, and I'm paraphrasing, an "asshole" who committed the biggest Oops in history (well, not counting the Titanic).

Precisely because it is a sophisticated piece of weaponry and has specific radar and redundancies built in to identify commercial from military targets.

If that's the case, then either the operators were brain-dead, blind drunk, or from Kiev. Because Kiev would be the only entity with an interest in shooting down an airplane, in an effort to blame separatists and involve the west. Yanno, kind of like the gas attack in Syria which should have precipitated bombing Assad.

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 18, 2014 9:04 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Malaysian Airline officials made the decision to fly that route based on MONEY, and the pilot did what he was told.

So much for the "Your safety is our first priority" bullshit.

SIGNYM

Friday, July 18, 2014 9:14 PM (P)

That was BRITISH airlines.

They wash their hands of anything Malaysian Airlines might do!

THGRRI

Friday, July 18, 2014 9:29 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Let's see how the Europeans react. It was European civilians shot down. Will they hold Putin accountable?
You're making a big assumption there, aren't you? I wonder if this is going to be like the Syrian gas attack, where the west was so quick to jump on the bandwagon that Assad did it, only to see all of their "evidence" melt away. Yanno, kinda like Saddam's "WMD" and "Chavez' snipers" and Noriega's "major drug running operation".

SGG
Quote:
I heard it just the opposite from a retired general who said that whoever let that bird fly was, and I'm paraphrasing, an "asshole" who committed the biggest Oops in history (well, not counting the Titanic).

Precisely because it is a sophisticated piece of weaponry and has specific radar and redundancies built in to identify commercial from military targets.
If that's the case, then either the operators were brain-dead, blind drunk, or from Kiev. Because Kiev would be the only entity with an interest in shooting down an airplane, in an effort to blame separatists and involve the west. Yanno, kind of like the gas attack in Syria which should have precipitated bombing Assad.

The gas attack I spoke of was carried out by the Syrians. 55 gallon drums with explosives and chemical weapons were dropped from helicopters. Something the rebels did not have, remember? I can’t help it if it goes against your delusions that somehow we trained the people who did it so we are responsible.

The missile system was given to the separatists by Putin. The belief at the moment is that the Russians moved these weapons to the borders very recently. Apparently the Ukrainian military does not possess these types of systems. The Russians have a vested interest in keeping Ukraine unstable so they are providing the rebels with sophisticated weaponry. This makes them culpable. I don't think anyone thinks they wanted to kill civilians and of course it was a mistake. They still did it and the Russian policy in the Ukraine and weapons provided by them led to it.

I see once again you are trying to provide cover for those responsible and wishing you could point your finger west as you like to do to avoid looking east.

Let's try a little logic here shall we. Everyone knows the Rebels do not have jets so no one but the rebels had any reason to be looking up.

SIGNYM

Friday, July 18, 2014 9:43 PM (P)

The Final Moments Of Flight MH-17: The Russian Side Of The Story

Yesterday, we laid out extensively what the official Ukrainian case was when it came to "proof" that Russian separatists had launched the Buk missile which allegedly took down flight MH-17; we also highlighted several glaring inconsistencies and questions that still remained open after the "incriminatory" YouTube clip release. So far, any international response has been muted to this hastily prepared evidence of Russian involvement, although the day is still young.

So what about the Russian side? Below we present the key arguments made by Russia to suggest that not it, but Ukraine, was responsible for taking down the Malaysian Boeing.

As reported earlier by RIA, the Russian Defense Ministry says it had intercepted the activity of a Ukrainian radar system on the day the Malaysian plane went down in eastern Ukraine, the ministry’s press service said Friday.

"Throughout the day on July 17, Russian means of radar surveillance intercepted the operation of the Buk-M1 battery’s Kupol radar station located in the region of the populated area of Styla [30 kilometers south of Donetsk]," the press service said in a statement.

“The technical capabilities of the Buk-M1 allow the exchange of data on air targets between batteries of one battalion. Thus, the launch of rockets could have also occurred from any of the batteries deployed in the populated area of Avdeevka [8 kilometers north of Donetsk] or from Gruzsko-Zoryanskoe [25 kilometers east of Donetsk],” the ministry said.

Then we go to Itar-Tass which reported that civil flights in the air space of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions cannot be performed as the relevant communications infrastructure was destroyed there, a source from the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) told ITAR-TASS on Thursday.

“Kiev operates all air traffic control services and it is unclear how this plane (the Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 that crashed in eastern Ukraine near the Russian border Thursday night. — ITAR-TASS) could appear in the area,” he said.

“During the combat actions in Donetsk’s airport the communication tower, a part of the united air control service was blown up,” he said adding that “planes cannot fly there.”

On July 8, Ukraine’s State Aviation Service banned all flights over the Donetsk and Luhansk regions aiming to provide “adequate safety and security for all flights of civil aircraft in favor of state aviation.

Meanwhile, Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council took a decision to close the airspace over the area of the so-called anti-terror operation to commercial flights three days ago, Rosaviatsia reported.

This goes back to our post from last night in which we wondered just why and how did it happen that flight MH-17 diverted from its usual trajectory to fly over what was effectively restricted airspace. This also is the topic of a follow up piece by Bloomberg released overnight in which it was noted that "Malaysian Air Flight Took Route Avoided by Qantas, Asiana:"

Qantas hasn’t used the route for a few months, said Andrew McGinnes, a spokesman for the Australian carrier, while Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said it has been detouring for “quite some time.” Korean Air Lines Co. and Asiana Airlines Inc. said in statements they have been avoiding the area since March 3.

One hopes that all lingering questions about the flight path, and where the instructions to change it came from, will be answered when the contents of the flight black box are released.

And finally, as RT reported, the national governor of the Donetsk region, Pavel Gubarev, admitted that while the separatists indeed are in possession of one BUK missile unit, it is not operational, and even if it was, it would be unable to reach a height of over 30,000 feet without central radar guidance which the Donetsk region does not have, once again suggesting that a Surface to Air Missile, if indeed one was used, came from the Ukraine side. Surely it will be

SIGNYM

Friday, July 18, 2014 9:51 PM (P)

Quote:
The gas attack I spoke of was carried out by the Syrians. 55 gallon drums with explosives and chemical weapons were dropped from helicopters. Something the rebels did not have, remember?

The gas attack I'M speaking of was the Sarin attack, and helicopters weren't involved. That gas attack YOU'RE speaking of is (I assume) the "industrial chemical" attack, and- to be quite honest- I've never seen any credible evidence that helicopters were involved. But, if you have pictures... radar data... anything to corroborate potentially self-serving statements from jihadists on the ground... please bring it here, with links.

Quote:
It wasn't I can’t help it if it goes against your delusions that somehow we trained the people who did it so we are responsible.

So, although we train and arm people, we're not responsible for what they do afterwards, correct?

I just want to make sure that I understand the point that you're making.

AGENTROUKA

Friday, July 18, 2014 9:55 PM (P)

The thing I don't get is why they would do it.

Why would Ukraine OR Russia do such a thing? Especially since it's, apparently, not that hard to eventually establish facts?

What would anybody have to gain?

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 18, 2014 10:00 PM (P)

I conjure all they saw was a dot, and the button man figured it had to be fair game.

THGRRI

Friday, July 18, 2014 10:02 PM (P)

Glancing at your post I see you wish to provide doubt to Putin's involvement. I am in no way going to sift through all of your post. Suggestive posting style, remember.

I am betting the world disagrees with you. Let's see who's right. It might be fun to go back later and cut and paste much of what you say to show how your bias shapes your delusions.

The new term for the separatists is Putin surrogates.

AURAPTOR

Friday, July 18, 2014 10:10 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I conjure all they saw was a dot, and the button man figured it had to be fair game.

" If it flies, it dies."

SIGNYM

Friday, July 18, 2014 10:32 PM (P)

Quote:
Glancing at your post I see you wish to provide doubt to Putin's involvement. I am in no way going to sift through all of your post. Suggestive posting style, remember. I am betting the world disagrees with you. Let's see who's right. It might be fun to go back later and cut and paste much of what you say to show how your bias shapes your delusions.

So, rather than discussing the facts at-hand, you (once again) take issue with my supposed "style".

Of course, this isn't MY style, I'm quoting ZeroHedge's contributors. They bring up several significant points: The Youtube clip of so-called "terrorists" discussing the downing of the airliner is of unknown provenance. Given the lack of background or corroborating detail, the Youtube clip could have been completely fabricated.

The other points I personally find significant is that Kiev has Buk batteries in the region, and that Kiev is in control of the air traffic. Since the communications tower at the Donetsk Airport was destroyed (I do remember reading about the fighting there) who directed the Malaysian airliner to take that particular route, if anyone?

So, given the wobbly nature of the "facts" so far established, of course I'm shedding doubt on Russian involvement. It's far too early to pin blame on anyone.

By the way, you seemed to have said...

Quote:
So, although we train and arm people, we're not responsible for what they do afterwards, correct? I just want to make sure that I understand the point that you're making.

You haven't answered that question.

And finally...

Quote:
I am betting the world disagrees with you. Let's see who's right.

As rappy so rightly says, science isn't a popularity contest, and neither is the truth. At one time, nearly everyone alive thought the earth was the center of the universe, and that disease was caused by a curse or bad air (mal aria). Or, as my hubby likes to say about popular (but wrong) opinion: A billion flies eat shit. So much for popular opinion!

SIGNYM

Friday, July 18, 2014 10:36 PM (P)

Quote:
The thing I don't get is why they would do it.
Why would Ukraine OR Russia do such a thing? Especially since it's, apparently, not that hard to eventually establish facts?
What would anybody have to gain?

This wouldn't be the first time a nation staged an incident for the sole purpose of blaming someone else. If it works, it will openly pull NATO into the fray and line up the EU on the side of full sanctions against Russia.

AFA it being awful... the Kiev government has already killed something like 500 of it's own civilians, whom they have repeatedly termed "subhumans". What's another 300?

How many of you thought that Saddam had WMD?
Who among you thought that Assad used chemical weapons in Syria?
How many of you were surprised by 9-11?
Did any of you predict the meltdown of 2008?
Who thought that Russia invaded Georgia unprovoked?

THGRRI

Friday, July 18, 2014 10:47 PM (P)

My point is what you chose to look at so you may try and mount a defense of Putin. This is your agenda. I chose to let my logic along with the logic of most reporting on this influence my current beliefs. Like I said earlier, only Putin’s Surrogates are worried about being attacked from above. As for the rest I do not wish to rehash it with you.

KPO

Friday, July 18, 2014 10:52 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Knew of that, but that doesn't fit the criteria.

Oh I see, you rephrased the question, inserting the word 'knowingly', haha. Well nobody 'knowingly' shot down this airliner either, so your attempted distinction is pointless. Listen if you haven't already, to the released recordings of the separatists discussing the shooting of the plane: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28362872

It's not personal. It's just war.

KPO

Friday, July 18, 2014 10:54 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
The thing I don't get is why they would do it.

Why would Ukraine OR Russia do such a thing? Especially since it's, apparently, not that hard to eventually establish facts?

What would anybody have to gain?

Nobody had anything to gain, it was an accident. Separatists have been shooting at Ukrainian military planes for weeks, and these attacks were intensifying in recent days. Sadly their radar capabilities (unlike Ukraine and Russia's) didn't have the ability to read friend or foe. They just saw a blip on the radar, and shot at it.

It's not personal. It's just war.

SIGNYM

Friday, July 18, 2014 10:58 PM (P)

Quote:
Like I said earlier, only Putin’s Surrogates are worried about being attacked from above.

In other words, Kiev isn't at all worried about Russian attack from the air??? Kiev is so confident that Russia WON'T attack that all of their protestations and cries for help, pleas to be saved from the big bad Russians are just so much theater? That Kiev itself doesn't believe Russia is a threat?

GOOD TO KNOW!

Next time Kiev wrings its hands and blames Russia for ... whatever it chooses to blame Russia for... we'll know that it's all just a hoax. Kiev has no worries at all - according to you!

Select to view spoiler:

Which of course doesn't explain why KIEV has Buk anti-aircraft missile batteries on it's eastern front. Yanno, exactly the kind of anti-aircraft missile, with full radar support, that shot the Malyasian airliner down

(And I can't believe you made such a blunder. Prolly something about the bias you bring to the table.)

ALSO, you seem to have said that although we train and arm people, we're really not responsible for what they do afterwards. That's another logical error. I wonder if you've figured out exactly how.

AGENTROUKA

Friday, July 18, 2014 11:04 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Nobody had anything to gain, it was an accident. Separatists have been shooting at Ukrainian military planes for weeks, and these attacks were intensifying in recent days. Sadly their radar capabilities (unlike Ukraine and Russia's) didn't have the ability to read friend or foe. They just saw a blip on the radar, and shot at it.

That was my initial impression and what seems to make the most sense.

I get the impression that SIGNY is arguing that Ukraine shot down the plane on purpose in order to blame separatists and stir up international involvement.

Somehow that seems like far more risk than potential gain. This is not an impossible crime to solve, after all.

It doesn't make logical sense.

SIGNYM

Friday, July 18, 2014 11:09 PM (P)

Quote:
Nobody had anything to gain, it was an accident. Separatists have been shooting at Ukrainian military planes for weeks, and these attacks were intensifying in recent days.

Once again, you've got your facts half-assed. Separatists have been shooting down helicopters and low-flying aircraft with man-portable, shoulder-fired missiles. A small shoulder-fired missile could never reach 33,000 feet.

It's been standard practice to blame the "other side" for making a "mistake". The story going around about Assad was that - even tho he had absolutely nothing to gain and much to lose by using chemical weapons - one of his subordinates made a mistake in the heat of battle. None of that turned out to be true.

During the 2002 attempted coup against Hugo Chavez, when a dozen or so people were killed, the initial reporting was that it was the police and/or military mistakenly shooting at protesters in the heat of conflict. That wasn't true either.

It's a plausible story, but you have to assume that the separatists had a working BUK battery and radar, and the expertise to fire it.

The facts are still being collected.

SIGNYM

Friday, July 18, 2014 11:15 PM (P)

Quote:
I get the impression that SIGNY is arguing that Ukraine shot down the plane on purpose in order to blame separatists and stir up international involvement.

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!

That's one possible explanation. It wouldn't be the first time such a thing has been done (I cited a few example but could cite many more. A Turkish military recording was released discussing exactly that- how to engineer an "attack" from the Syrian side in order to justify a full-scale invasion from the Turkish side) and it has worked many times in the past.

Kiev has fired on border checkpoints and Russian border towns, and engaged in atrocities against civilians - extremely provocative actions. Keep that in mind.

Facts are still being collected. I made that point before, regarding the Syrian Sarin attack. I make it again now. Don't rush to judgment.

Quote:
This is not an impossible crime to solve, after all.

Neither was the Sarin gas attack, nor the sniper fire in Venezuela, nor the sniper fire in Kiev, nor the killers in the Odessa Trades Union building. Eventually, the truth came out about Saddam's so-called WMD, and Noriega's so-called drug running scheme, and even the Bay of Pigs and the Gulf of Tonkin. But when the administration... and it doesn't matter if it's Blair or Cameron, and Bush or Obama... doesn't have an interest in solving the event, suddenly the trail will get cold and the media will coverage will dribble off.

---------------
How many of you thought that Saddam had WMD?
Who among you thought that Assad used chemical weapons in Syria?
How many of you were surprised by 9-11?
Did any of you predict the meltdown of 2008?
Who thought that Russia invaded Georgia unprovoked?

THGRRI

Friday, July 18, 2014 11:29 PM (P)

THGRRI

Friday, July 18, 2014 11:31 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Nobody had anything to gain, it was an accident. Separatists have been shooting at Ukrainian military planes for weeks, and these attacks were intensifying in recent days.
Once again, you've got your facts half-assed. Separatists have been shooting down helicopters and low-flying aircraft with man-portable, shoulder-fired missiles. A small shoulder-fired missile could never reach 33,000 feet.

It's been standard practice to blame the "other side" for making a "mistake". The story going around about Assad was that - even tho he had absolutely nothing to gain and much to lose by using chemical weapons - one of his subordinates made a mistake in the heat of battle. None of that turned out to be true.

During the 2002 attempted coup against Hugo Chavez, when a dozen or so people were killed, the initial reporting was that it was the police and/or military mistakenly shooting at protesters in the heat of conflict. That wasn't true either.

It's a plausible story, but you have to assume that the separatists had a working BUK battery and radar, and the expertise to fire it.

The facts are still being collected.

subjective posting

THGRRI

Friday, July 18, 2014 11:32 PM (P)

Quote:
…..Sig
In other words, Kiev isn't at all worried about Russian attack from the air??? Kiev is so confident that Russia WON'T attack that all of their protestations and cries for help, pleas to be saved from the big bad Russians are just so much theater? That Kiev itself doesn't believe Russia is a threat?
GOOD TO KNOW!

I would say when they detect a single aircraft above 30,000 feet they are not worried it is the beginning of an invasion by Russia. Exactly

Quote:
....Sig
Next time Kiev wrings its hands and blames Russia for ... whatever it chooses to blame Russia for... we'll know that it's all just a hoax. Kiev has no worries at all - according to you!

I didn’t say that. What I imply is even though it is early in the process, it is apparent who is responsible. Along with that I like the odds the world states that much of the blame falls to Putin.

Quote:
….Sig
Which of course doesn't explain why KIEV has Buk anti-aircraft missile batteries on it's eastern front. Yanno, exactly the kind of anti-aircraft missile, with full radar support, that shot the Malyasian airliner down

If that’s the case they are run by people who have been trained to use them. People properly trained can tell if it is a civilian plane. It is less likely they did it but earlier you did suggest they may have done it to point the finger at others. That is how you think.

Quote:
….Sig
(And I can't believe you made such a blunder. Prolly something about the bias you bring to the table.)
ALSO, you seem to have said that although we train and arm people, we're really not responsible for what they do afterwards. That's another logical error. I wonder if you've figured out exactly how.

That is not what I said at all. Try again…

KPO

Friday, July 18, 2014 11:47 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Nobody had anything to gain, it was an accident. Separatists have been shooting at Ukrainian military planes for weeks, and these attacks were intensifying in recent days.
Once again, you've got your facts half-assed. Separatists have been shooting down helicopters and low-flying aircraft with man-portable, shoulder-fired missiles. A small shoulder-fired missile could never reach 33,000 feet.

It's been standard practice to blame the "other side" for making a "mistake". The story going around about Assad was that - even tho he had absolutely nothing to gain and much to lose by using chemical weapons - one of his subordinates made a mistake in the heat of battle. None of that turned out to be true.

During the 2002 attempted coup against Hugo Chavez, when a dozen or so people were killed, the initial reporting was that it was the police and/or military mistakenly shooting at protesters in the heat of conflict. That wasn't true either.

It's a plausible story, but you have to assume that the separatists had a working BUK battery and radar, and the expertise to fire it.

The facts are still being collected.

There is evidence that they had one (a Buk). They tweeted that they had captured one back in June, and an AP reporter reported seeing one in their possession.

It's not personal. It's just war.

SIGNYM

Friday, July 18, 2014 11:57 PM (P)

Quote:
There is evidence that they had one (a Buk).

You need more than a BUK battery, you need at least track-mounted radar trucks and a command system. Also, you need training. According to the governor of the region, the battery that the separatists have wasn't even working. (That was in a post from Zerohedge.) Well, the governor might be blowing smoke, for all I know. But meanwhile, Kiev has several working systems right in the area. That's kind of a big gap in your thinking if you don't take that into account.

The latest, from Zerohedge

Ukraine's Security Service Has Confiscated Air Traffic Control Recordings With Malaysian Jet

Earlier, when we commented in the abnormality in the flight path of flight MH-17 we said that "perhaps before coming to "certain" conclusion about the involvement of this rebel or that, the key questions one should ask before casting blame, is why did the pilot divert from his usual flight plan, why did he fly above restricted airspace, and just what, if any instructions, did Kiev air control give the pilot in the minutes before the tragic explosion?"

The simple answer would have come if Ukraine had merely released the Air Traffic Control recording from the tower and flight MH 17, something Malaysia did in the aftermath of the disappearance of flight MH 370, which at last check has still not been uncovered.

It now appears that answer will not be forthcoming because as the BBC reports "Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."

What happens to the recordings next is completely unknown. What is known is that any hope of getting an undoctored explanation why the plane flew as it did, or what the pilots may have seen or said in the moments before the explosion, is forever gone.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-18/ukraines-security-service-has
-confiscated-air-traffic-control-recordings-malaysian-j

SIGNYM

Saturday, July 19, 2014 12:07 AM (P)

Quote:
What I imply is even though it is early in the process, it is apparent who is responsible.

Subjective post. Just like everything else you post.

Yanno, when somebody says "everyone knows" or "it's apparent", that is kind of a signal that there is nothing behind that opinion except more opinion. Try not to argue that way, or think that way. It's intellectually weak.

Also, I've asked you several times to clarify your statements. You either won't, or you can't, but don't blame me for your failure to communicate. Since you don't seem interested in discussing the facts, I'll just let the rest of your posts slide.

THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 12:15 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
What I imply is even though it is early in the process, it is apparent who is responsible.
Subjective post. Just like everything else you post.

Yanno, when somebody says "everyone knows" or "it's apparent", that is kind of a signal that there is nothing behind that opinion except more opinion. Try not to argue that way, or think that way. It's intellectually weak.

Also, I've asked you several times to clarify your statements. You either won't, or you can't, but don't blame me for your failure to communicate. Since you don't seem interested in discussing the facts, I'll just let the rest of your posts slide.

Exactly Sig, many, many opinions. But you keep focusing on the what suits your agenda. It's what your good at.

As for clarifying my statements that is a ruse. There is nothing to clarify. They are short enough so not to confuse and in plan language. I offered up no facts to be clarified but instead my opinion based on the opinions of others reporting on the story.

Let's see who's right.

SIGNYM

Saturday, July 19, 2014 12:24 AM (P)

Quote:
But you keep focusing on the what suits your agenda.

I'm provding balance, because otherwise you'd all rush off a mental cliff together in a spasm of assumption and emotion. If it wasn't for me, you'd have no countervailing information at all. And all I'm saying is- wait for the facts to come in, and keep an open mind (difficult as that seems to be). Don't be stampeded, as you have apparently been so many times before. Capice?

SECOND

Saturday, July 19, 2014 12:31 AM (P)

The weak link in Obama administration efforts to punish Russian behavior in Ukraine has always been the reluctance of America's allies in Europe to crack down hard. Europe is closer to Russia geographically, and much more interconnected with it. That means European countries have the ability to enact sanctions that bite much harder than American sanctions, but it also means that European countries pay a higher price for getting tough than does the United States.

So the impact of the downing of MH17 on European politics is probably the key way in which the tragedy will affect the geopolitical situation around Ukraine. And we're already starting to see it play out.

The largest share of the dead are citizens of the Netherlands, a small country that lost a greater share of its population yesterday than the United States did on 9/11. Given the circumstances, it is not surprising that Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte issued one of the harshest statements of any world leader, vowing to ensure that the perpetrators are identified and punished. www.vox.com/2014/7/18/5915193/a-greater-share-of-netherlands-populatio
n-was-killed-than-the-us/in/5677250

The Netherlands is not a geopolitical powerhouse, but they do have interests that bear directly on Russia-EU relations. One is that the Netherlands is a major tax haven for Russian oligarchs, and a center for activity verging on money laundering that has the ability to hit influential Russians in the pocketbook.
www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-05/russia-knows-europe-sanctions-ineffe
ctive-with-tax-havens.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

CHRISISALL

Saturday, July 19, 2014 12:39 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
the Netherlands is a major tax haven for Russian oligarchs, and a center for activity verging on money laundering that has the ability to hit influential Russians in the pocketbook.

OOOOooooo, cool.

THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 1:08 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
The weak link in Obama administration efforts to punish Russian behavior in Ukraine has always been the reluctance of America's allies in Europe to crack down hard. Europe is closer to Russia geographically, and much more interconnected with it. That means European countries have the ability to enact sanctions that bite much harder than American sanctions, but it also means that European countries pay a higher price for getting tough than does the United States.

So the impact of the downing of MH17 on European politics is probably the key way in which the tragedy will affect the geopolitical situation around Ukraine. And we're already starting to see it play out.

The largest share of the dead are citizens of the Netherlands, a small country that lost a greater share of its population yesterday than the United States did on 9/11. Given the circumstances, it is not surprising that Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte issued one of the harshest statements of any world leader, vowing to ensure that the perpetrators are identified and punished. www.vox.com/2014/7/18/5915193/a-greater-share-of-netherlands-populatio
n-was-killed-than-the-us/in/5677250

The Netherlands is not a geopolitical powerhouse, but they do have interests that bear directly on Russia-EU relations. One is that the Netherlands is a major tax haven for Russian oligarchs, and a center for activity verging on money laundering that has the ability to hit influential Russians in the pocketbook.
www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-05/russia-knows-europe-sanctions-ineffe
ctive-with-tax-havens.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Nicely done. Also the Europeans did not act with us the other day in upping the sanctions against Russia and are now scrambling to cover their asses.

THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 1:15 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-18/malaysian-air-shooting
-russian-news-media-tries-crazy-theories

Russian Media Goes Far Out to Explain Malaysia Airlines Disaster

Russians awoke Friday to news reports that bumbling Ukrainian troops had shot down a Malaysia Airlines (MAS:MK) jet after mistaking it for President Vladimir Putin’s official plane. Another theory: The Ukrainians intentionally shot down the jet at close range as a “planned provocation.” Or maybe there wasn’t a crash at all and the bodies were those of passengers from Malaysian Air flight M370, which disappeared in March.

Most of these weird news reports aren’t coming from tabloids or fringe websites. They’re coming from Russia’s leading news outlets, which are almost entirely under state control. The report on the mistaken identification of Putin’s plane, for example, aired on Channel 1, the country’s most popular TV network. The journalists never explained why the Ukrainians might have though Putin was in the neighborhood, since he was attending a well-publicized summit in Brazil on the day of the crash.

State-owned news agency Itar-Tass, meanwhile, put out a report disputing suggestions that separatist rebels may have hit the plane with a Buk surface-to-air missile. It quoted a spokesman for the rebels as saying they had no weapons capable of shooting down an airliner at 33,000 feet—overlooking the fact that Itar-Tass itself had reported previously that the rebels had seized Buk missiles from a Ukrainian military installation.

Someone at the state-run All-Russia State Television and Radio Broadcasting Co. even appears to have edited a Russian-language Wikipedia article on plane crashes today, to say that the plane “was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers.”

And Sara Firth, a London-based correspondent for Russia’s international TV network RT, said today she was quitting because it was spreading “shockingly obvious misinformation.” She’s the second RT journalist to leave this year while accusing the Kremlin of shaping the network’s news coverage.

>>> To outsiders, Russian media coverage of the Ukraine crisis may seem farfetched, conspiracy-laden, and contradictory.<<< (snort!).

But it has effectively persuaded Russians that the Ukrainian rebels need their help to fight brutal repression by Kiev. “Aggressive and deceptive propaganda, worse than anything I witnessed in the Soviet Union,” is how Lev Gudkov, director of the Levada polling group, described it to the BBC last month. Indeed, Levada surveys show that most Russians think their country should be doing even more to support the rebels, including direct military invention in Ukraine.

Until now, this has helped Putin withstand a storm of international criticism and sanctions that risk harm to Russia’s ailing economy. Yet the inflamed public opinion could also make it harder for Russia to back away from the rebels if investigators find that they shot down a civilian aircraft with 298 aboard. Putin may find that his support for the rebellion has unleashed an “uncontrollable force,” says Angela Stent, director of the center for Eurasian, Russian, and East European Studies at the Georgetown University School of Foreign Service.

“As pro-Putin media and social network trolls invent increasingly fantastical versions” of the crash, writes Bloomberg View columnist Leonid Bershidsky, “Russia risks becoming a pariah even to developing countries that have sympathized with its anti-American stance.”

A major source of questionable information about the crisis has come from state-controlled Channel One. The network recently drew condemnation for a report claiming that Ukrainian troops had crucified a small boy by nailing him to a billboard in the city of Slavyansk. No other news organization could find witnesses to the incident, which Channel One claimed took place before a crowd in the city’s central square. Among other the dubious elements in the report was a glaring issue: There’s no billboard in Slavyansk’s central square.

THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 1:17 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
But you keep focusing on the what suits your agenda.
I'm provding balance, because otherwise you'd all rush off a mental cliff together in a spasm of assumption and emotion. If it wasn't for me, you'd have no countervailing information at all. And all I'm saying is- wait for the facts to come in, and keep an open mind (difficult as that seems to be). Don't be stampeded, as you have apparently been so many times before. Capice?

I notice caution does not apply to you when you weave your propaganda scenarios about the CIA or any American government intentions. Why is that? Why do you manufacture all the different types of foul play plots perpetrated by Americans but wish to proceed with caution here?

Of course I am kidding, we both know why.

JONGSSTRAW

Saturday, July 19, 2014 1:40 AM (P)

As usual, Comrade Snigy is there to powder Putin's balls. Her false-flag scenario is taken directly from the absurd propagandists on Russian State TV. They are even now claiming that it wasn't a missile attack at all. The plane just blew up for some mysterious reason. Now Putin's trained intelligence agents are sifting thru the wreckage and removing all evidence of the missile. And the other useful-idiot thugs are ransacking the luggage, stealing everything they can get their grubby mitts on. Look Oleg ... it says d e o d o r a n t. Vhat is dat?

THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 1:53 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
As usual, Comrade Snigy is there to powder Putin's balls. Her false-flag scenario is taken directly from the absurd propagandists on Russian State TV. They are even now claiming that it wasn't a missile attack at all. The plane just blew up for some mysterious reason. Now Putin's trained intelligence agents are sifting thru the wreckage and removing all evidence of the missile. And the other useful-idiot thugs are ransacking the luggage, stealing everything they can get their grubby mitts on. Look Oleg ... it says d e o d o r a n t. Vhat is dat?

This is why I do not get caught up in Sig's long drawn out posts. It is always the same story, same approach which is to cause doubt or place the blame on sometimes imagined others. Even the far left who report on things such as this do not cover Putin's ass in the way Sig tries to. I'm sorry but I do not believe she is from here.

SIGNYM

Saturday, July 19, 2014 2:04 AM (P)

Quote:
I notice caution does not apply to you when you weave your propaganda scenarios about the CIA or any American government intentions. Why is that? Why do you manufacture all the different types of foul play plots perpetrated by Americans but wish to proceed with caution here?

Because when I accuse the USA of doing something, there is solid evidence behind it- leaked recordings, photographic evidence, historical documents etc. For example, it's a little hard to deny that Saudi Arabia has been funding jihadists, and that we did too. That isn't speculation, its historical fact.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Saturday, July 19, 2014 2:07 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Let's see how the Europeans react. It was European civilians shot down. Will they hold Putin accountable?

Passengers

Malaysia Airlines listed the nationality of MH17 passengers as:

189 Dutch.
29 Malaysians.
28 Australians.
12 Indonesians.
9 Britons.
4 Germans.
4 Belgians.
3 Filipinos.
1 Canadian.
1 American.
1 New Zealander.

THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 2:08 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
I notice caution does not apply to you when you weave your propaganda scenarios about the CIA or any American government intentions. Why is that? Why do you manufacture all the different types of foul play plots perpetrated by Americans but wish to proceed with caution here?
Because when I accuse the USA of doing something, there is solid evidence behind it- leaked recordings, photographic evidence, historical documents etc. For example, it's a little hard to deny that Saudi Arabia has been funding jihadists, and that we did too. That isn't speculation, its historical fact.

The problem you have is your willingness to accept speculation and innuendo over facts when it comes to some and not others. In fact much of what you suggest comes from within your preconceived opinions.

THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 2:13 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Let's see how the Europeans react. It was European civilians shot down. Will they hold Putin accountable?

Passengers

Malaysia Airlines listed the nationality of MH17 passengers as:

189 Dutch.
29 Malaysians.
28 Australians.
12 Indonesians.
9 Britons.
4 Germans.
4 Belgians.
3 Filipinos.
1 Canadian.
1 American.
1 New Zealander.

Very sad. This is what happens when you give sophisticated weapons to extremists.

THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 2:30 AM (P)

pissss,pissss, Sygie, hey Sygie.

Last Wednesday, in the hours after a horrific chemical attack east of Damascus, an official at the Syrian Ministry of Defense exchanged panicked phone calls with a leader of a chemical weapons unit, demanding answers for a nerve agent strike that killed more than 1,000 people. Those conversations were overheard by U.S. intelligence services, The Cable has learned. And that is the major reason why American officials now say they're certain that the attacks were the work of the Bashar al-Assad regime -- and why the U.S. military is likely to attack that regime in a matter of days.

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/08/27/exclusive_us_spies_
say_intercepted_calls_prove_syrias_army_used_nerve_gas

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Saturday, July 19, 2014 2:34 AM (P)

Quote:
Moscow has voiced anger over being blamed by Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott for the downing of a Malaysia passenger jet over eastern Ukraine that killed all 298 people on board, calling his comments "unacceptable".

"Without bothering himself about evidence and operating only on speculation, Mr T. Abbott assigned guilt," the foreign ministry said in a statement. "Abbott's statements are unacceptable."

On Friday, Australia issued a blunt ultimatum to Moscow and was reconsidering Vladimir Putin's attendance at the G20 in November as the world reeled from the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, killing 298 people - 28 of them Australians.

Declaring the tragedy was not an accident, Mr Abbott said Russia now faced a crucial test of its international citizenship, as he called on the international community to take the strongest possible action to ensure such an "appalling crime" can never be repeated.

The forceful comments came after Foreign Affairs Minister Julie Bishop emerged from a meeting with Russia's ambassador to Australia Vladimir Morozov, to reveal Moscow had denied the involvement of pro-Russian rebels and attempted to lay the blame at Ukraine's feet.
An armed pro-Russian separatist stands at the site of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane crash.

Overnight, a US official in Washington said a preliminary US intelligence assessment indicated that MH17 was shot down by an anti-aircraft missile fired by pro-Russian separatists.

With the weight of the events clearly visible on his face, Mr Abbott said he was angry at the loss of innocent Australian lives and was deeply unsatisfied at Russia's denials of any culpability.

He said he took the dimmest possible view of countries that facilitated the killing of Australian citizens - a reference to the use of a sophisticated Russian-supplied surface-to-air missile system to shoot the airliner from the sky at its cruising altitude of 33,000 feet.
Russia's ambassador to Australia Vladimir Morozov, pictured in March, meet with Foreign Affairs Minister Julie Bishop in Sydney on Friday.

Confirming a total death toll of 298, Mr Abbott listed the nationalities as "Netherlands 155, Malaysia 43, Indonesia 12, United Kingdom 9, Germany 4, Belgium 4, Philippines 3, Canada 1." There are still 41 whose nationalities remain unconfirmed.

"The advice I have is that the final number of Australians aboard is 28," he said.

Of those, seven were from Queensland, 10 from Victoria, seven from Western Australia, three from NSW and one from the Northern Territory.

He said a national day of mourning has been agreed to with a date to be fixed and announced that he and Governor-General Peter Cosgrove would attend church services on Saturday and Sunday.

Earlier, Mr Abbott had convened a snap meeting of the National Security Committee in Canberra after news broke that a Boeing 777 flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur had been shot down over east Ukraine.

It will also use its membership of the UN Security Council to push for absolute unfettered access to the crash site, the black box, and any witnesses, in a move already provoking Russian resistance.

The atrocity has sparked questions over why the Malaysian carrier was still using a flight path over the Ukrainian war zone, when other airlines, including Qantas, had changed their flight paths in recent months due to an increase in the intensity of fighting in the area.

But it has also brought harsh criticism of Russia's sponsorship of the bloody Ukrainian civil war. It has been widely speculated that Russian-backed rebels used a Russian-supplied missile to bring down the aircraft.

Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte, one of at least three world leaders with whom Mr Abbott spoke on Friday, said his country was devastated.

"The whole of the Netherlands is in mourning ... this beautiful summer day has ended in the blackest possible way," he said.

Ukraine's Petro Poroshenko, whose cou

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Saturday, July 19, 2014 3:57 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

This wasn't some simple fire and forget shoulder rocket. This was serious big boy hardware
Atypically, I must agree with you here.

Chrissy keep swerving into reasonibility.

SIGNYM

Saturday, July 19, 2014 4:01 AM (P)

I noticed, THUGR, that the link you provided was from 2013, and that the USA did NOT attack within a matter of days, but quietly slunk off. Meanwhile, the value of the intelligence... 'helpfully' provided by Israel... evaporated.

First of all, I was involved in a project relating to chemical weapons detection... we had a small contract with the DOD, and so I made it a point to learn as much as I could about the topic. At the time I said that sarin is made with stabilizers, and that the purity, contaminants, and stabilizers are characteristic of the manufacturer. Secondly, an army attack would be with shells of standardize manufacture, not a hodge-podge of parts stuck together. Thirdly, Turkey itself reported arresting jihadists WITH SARIN at the border. Given all that, it should be able to definitively arrive at who made and used the sarin.

Now, you weren't there then, so I forgive you for not knowing your ass from a hole in the ground, but it sure does get tiring repeating myself to idiots. I'm not talking out of my ass, I make it a point to know and understand the ins and outs of a topic before I post.

----------
How many of you thought that Saddam had WMD?
Who among you thought that Assad used chemical weapons in Syria?
How many of you were surprised by 9-11?
Did any of you predict the meltdown of 2008?
Who thought that Russia invaded Georgia unprovoked?

GEEZER

Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:05 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Of course, this isn't MY style, I'm quoting ZeroHedge's contributors.

ZeroHedge's "contributors" is one person using the pseudonym "Tyler Durden"

Really trustworthy.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

CHRISISALL

Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:19 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
ZeroHedge's "contributors" is one person using the pseudonym "Tyler Durden"

Really trustworthy.

What's in a name?

THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:11 AM (P)

Quote:
….Sig
I noticed, THUGR, that the link you provided was from 2013, and that the USA did NOT attack within a matter of days, but quietly slunk off. Meanwhile, the value of the intelligence... 'helpfully' provided by Israel... evaporated.

The outcome is what matters. For instance we now have all Syria’s chemical weapons which we are destroying and that is the best possible conclusion. We also know who used them and it’s not who you implied.

Quote:
….Sig
First of all, I was involved in a project relating to chemical weapons detection... we had a small contract with the DOD, and so I made it a point to learn as much as I could about the topic. At the time I said that sarin is made with stabilizers, and that the purity, contaminants, and stabilizers are characteristic of the manufacturer. Secondly, an army attack would be with shells of standardize manufacture, not a hodge-podge of parts stuck together. Thirdly, Turkey itself reported arresting jihadists WITH SARIN at the border. Given all that, it should be able to definitively arrive at who made and used the sarin.

I used to give a class on detection in the military. I had a little testers’ kit and everything. I taught how to use your poncho as protection, how to approach what was the suspected area, and how to use the kit. Which by the way is irrelevant. You claiming to understand about contaminants and stabilizers is subjective information as is my training and not relevant to who used them.

Quote:
….Sig
Now, you weren't there then, so I forgive you for not knowing your ass from a hole in the ground, but it sure does get tiring repeating myself to idiots. I'm not talking out of my ass, I make it a point to know and understand the ins and outs of a topic before I post.

Pointless and again subjective. Not relevant.

KPO

Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:10 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
There is evidence that they had one (a Buk).
You need more than a BUK battery, you need at least track-mounted radar trucks and a command system. Also, you need training. According to the governor of the region, the battery that the separatists have wasn't even working. (That was in a post from Zerohedge.) Well, the governor might be blowing smoke, for all I know. But meanwhile, Kiev has several working systems right in the area. That's kind of a big gap in your thinking if you don't take that into account.

It has more than crossed my mind that Russian intelligence is significantly involved with the separatists. In fact I'd say that's pretty much a given.

It's not personal. It's just war.

AURAPTOR

Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:16 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:

It has more than crossed my mind that Russian intelligence is significantly involved with the separatists. In fact I'd say that's pretty much a given.

Not unlike the White House is w/ the IRS agents who targeted certain Americans...

ELVISCHRIST

Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:29 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Knew of that, but that doesn't fit the criteria.

The crew of the Vincennes were awarded medals for the shoot-down.

And you've yet to show *ANY* evidence that this latest shoot-down was done "knowingly".

If your criteria are (a) they targeted a plane and (b) shot it down, then the Vincennes meets the criteria you've set.

ELVISCHRIST

Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:30 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:

It has more than crossed my mind that Russian intelligence is significantly involved with the separatists. In fact I'd say that's pretty much a given.

Not unlike the White House is w/ the IRS agents who targeted certain Americans...

Which you have never been able to come up with evidence of, to the surprise of nobody.

THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:48 AM (P)

As I said Sig, lets wait and see who's right.

'Every single day we're lying': Russia Today reporter resigns over coverage of Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/russia-today-reporter-quits-mala
ysia-airlines-mh17-crash-coverage-article-1.1871924

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, July 19, 2014 8:38 AM (P)

The separatists have complete control of the crash site, including the black boxes and the remains of the missile that took the plane down. The latter should be an obvious part of the wreckage, available to anyone to find and analyze. If this stuff doesn't turn up, then perhaps those separatists took it away and buried it, hmm?

Just like the separatists shipped the blackbox flight recordings off to mother russia and it won't turn up for everyone else soon...?

Don't agree, Sig? If you're right in your defense of Russia and finger-pointing at the west, we should see the separatists handing this evidence over to international investigators immediately, because it will only prove how innocent they are.

Has it happened yet?

Why not?

Heck, I know how things can be faked (the Facebook videos of the separatists ya-hooing over getting a missile launched at a "Ukrainian" plane, or cheering at taking the plane down, or realizing that the plane was civilian and reversing course... Funny how you ignore all that news but cling to the Russian headlines despite how RT reporters are quitting rather than reporting Putin's lies) but sorry, the reaction of the Russian press is a big ole tell. The burial of evidence that they are actively involved in gives this away, or so it looks so far.

That's not because I'm some mindless drone, as you in your superiority view everyone not you. That's because I have LOGIC. You have logic is other topics, but not so here.

If, in this next week, Russia comes clean with the black box and the evidence of missile wreckage they found at the crash site, I'll consider that Putin is innocent and the west set this whole thing up.

Big IF there.

How about you, Sig? What if the separatists continue as they are, and bury all this. Will you let go of your bias and accept the facts?

*-------------------------------------------------*
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*-------------------------------------------------*

1KIKI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 8:47 AM (P)

and, as usual, you bring no facts to the table

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
subjective posting

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

1KIKI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 8:51 AM (P)

What if the separatists continue as they are, and bury all this.

Not Signy, but I'll reply. Turn it over to - whom, exactly? The US? The EU? Who would you trust for an unbiased fair analysis?

THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 8:52 AM (P)

The black boxes are mostly irrelevant. They show course and speed, altitude, some systems failures and perhaps a few comments by the pilots. Still they may hide them anyway at of caution. Our satellites will back track the missile to where it came from. We have been monitoring what is going on with the Russian border. In 24 to 48 hours we will know a lot. Signym won't believe any of it but who cares.

SIGNYM

Saturday, July 19, 2014 8:55 AM (P)

Quote:
Just like the separatists shipped the blackbox flight recordings off to mother russia and it won't turn up for everyone else soon...? Don't agree, Sig?

Russia has already said it won't take custody of the box. This has been in the news for at least 10 hours... DO try to keep up!!

Also, doing what I do, I know about COC (Chain of Custody) procedures.... do you?

Lookit, I know you all... and I mean almost ALL... have got a hard on for Russia and for me. But you're letting it cloud your judgment, as usual.

Quote:
I used to give a class on detection in the military. I had a little testers’ kit and everything.

Ooooh, you had a tester's kit! Wow, yeah, we know all about those! Must have been Gulf War issue, right? Responded to jet fuel and aftershave- real useful, that!

That's why we had several $120,000 instruments to try out.

As far as satellite and radar- I'll bet that region is wired up to its eyeballs. But nobody will say exactly what they know, because that reveals their surveillance capabilities.

Didn't think of that, didja THUGR?? Of course not.

*mutters 'ASSHOLES' and walks away*

Oh, one more thing...

Quote:
It has more than crossed my mind that Russian intelligence is significantly involved with the separatists. In fact I'd say that's pretty much a given.

If Russian intelligence was involved, they would have NEVER shot down the plane, of that you can be certain. What would they gain???

Oh yeah, that's right... NOTHING. And once again, your prejudice is ahead of your logic, it's clear. You pretend to be all kinds of disengaged and ironic, but really... you're just a big brainwashed lug.

THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:13 AM (P)

What Russia says and what the truth is are two different things. Just like your posts. What the facts are and what you would like us to believe are two different things.

What you don't realize is you are the one always on the wrong side of the facts. Your so out of it you can't figure out why we don't understand. I assure you we do.

Not to worry. We will know it all soon enough.

SIGNYM

Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:22 AM (P)

Quote:
What you don't realize is you are the one always on the wrong side of the facts.

First of all, son, "always" is a long, long time. NEVER use "never" or "always" in an argument- it'll trip you up every time. And as someone with such a short history here as you, "always" really isn't a winning argument for you... you can hardly look back more than two months.

And what YOU don't realize, son, is that I've been right far more often than I've been wrong. Again, you haven't been here much, but if you were - and you were any kind of objective observer - you'd realize I was saying the truth.

Quote:
Not to worry. We will know it all soon enough.

ALSO, I don't expect we'll know the truth "soon enough", altho I'm certain that we'll hear a carefully calibrated consensus statement by the WH in that timeframe. I imagine it will take two or three years for the truth to come out.

THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:34 AM (P)

I think we both made our points and it is feeling more like an attack to me. I want that to end so have your say and I will let it be. Repeating it all serves no purpose.

I mean it when I say have a good night.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:48 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
What you don't realize is you are the one always on the wrong side of the facts.

Pardon my French here, but I'd invite you to attempt to copulate with yourself.
Signy has an agenda. It's MAINLY truth-seeking IMHO. She actually HAS been right more than wrong. If you are indeed a real person, and not a plant to diffuse dissent, please stop being a dork. Truth from the 'side' you disagree with is still truth. Just like lies from peeps you agree with are still lies.
I'm kind of sick of the personal attacks here, attack the facts (or lack thereof), not the political persuasion of the person posting.
Otherwise I will use a Force-choke on your sorry non-Jedi ass...

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:57 AM (P)

Quote:
Reports of looting are now emerging from the crash site of MH17 as bodies remain strewn across the area more than 24 hours after the disaster.

Adviser to the Ukrainian Minister of Internal Affairs, Anton Gerashchenko has reported that "terrorists" have begun collecting valuables belonging to the victims of the tragedy.

"Death-hunters collecting Were not Only Cash money and Jewelry of the crashed Boing passengers died but Also the credit cards of the Victims [sic]," he wrote on his Facebook page.

The reports come alongside those of a chaotic investigation being conducted among the wheat fields at the crash site.

Michael Bociurkiw, spokesman for the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe’s special monitoring mission for Ukraine, told ABC News Radio that bodies at the crash site were already “starting to decompose in the fields”.

''It is astonishing to go there and this scene with no recovery going on,'' Mr Bociukiw said.

He said there there appeared to be no tampering with bodies at the site except markers were being placed near to them or to body parts. He said debris seemed to still be in place. He said the crash site could be up to six kilometres wide.

''It is a very, very gruesome scene and it boggles the mind that this could go on, we are going into day two or three now,'' Mr Bociukiw said.

He said it was disturbing to find no credible leader in the separatist-held area to establish the facts at the site.
There have been reports of looting and gunfire at the site of the wreckage.

Questions remained about how many bodies were there and the location of the black box. Mr Bociukiw's delegation needed to find out whether it was safe enough for international experts to begin their investigation into the disaster. He said many of the separatists appeared ''very aggressive'', under the influence of alcohol and possibly drugs.

''It is kind of the world's biggest crime scene right now,'' Mr Bociurkiw said.

He said his team had been in touch with Malaysian senior officials whose prime concern was that the bodies were treated in a human way.

''One immediate requirement would be refrigerated trailers - anything where these bodies could be moved - so they don't continue to lie there, exposed to the elements,'' Mr Bociurkiw said.

He said, 25 workers from the OSCE had access to the crash site for just 75 minutes before they were forced to leave. He said a gun shot was fired into the air as they left.

OSCE council chairman, Thomas Greminger told Reuters that workers assessing the scene "did not have the kind of access that they expected. They did not have the freedom of movement that they need to do their job. The crash site is not sealed off".

Denjen Doroschenko, an Australian journalist working in Ukraine told Fairfax Media in a radio interview that separatist organisations on the ground were "clueless about how to control a disaster area at all".

Dr Geoff Dell, an air crash investigation expert from Central Queensland University, said in any crash investigation it is critical that all on site know what they are doing.

"The longer it stays unexamined the more likely it gets contaminated, especially when there is people that aren’t really familiar with accident scenes, stomping all over it," he said.

"The longer that goes on the more likely something you’re looking for is either destroyed, or stolen."

He referred to Lauda Air Flight 004 which crashed in Thailand in 1991, in which a critical component was never found due to looting.

"Overnight a large percentage of the wreckage was pilfered. Pieces of the airplane that you couldn’t for the life of you think someone would want to steal, were taken," he said.

Dr Dell said it was crucial that proper protocols were followed, such as protecting the perimeter to keep people out and setting up a grid.

"You draw up a grid so you can

AURAPTOR

Saturday, July 19, 2014 4:17 PM (P)

Humans

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:02 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Just like the separatists shipped the blackbox flight recordings off to mother russia and it won't turn up for everyone else soon...? Don't agree, Sig?
Russia has already said it won't take custody of the box. This has been in the news for at least 10 hours... DO try to keep up!!

Also, doing what I do, I know about COC (Chain of Custody) procedures.... do you?

Wow. You've really undergone a personality shift since THGRRL showed up. Anyone else noticed that? Chris?

Chris - how do you go after THGRRL and not comment on what a superior asshat sig has become? Right or wrong, there's no fixing being a jerk, and she is irredeemably that.

Anyhoo, Miss Expert, about Russia...

Quote:
Lookit, I know you all... and I mean almost ALL... have got a hard on for Russia and for me. But you're letting it cloud your judgment, as usual.

You're the one with the hard on for Russia, dear. They *say* they'll return the black box - have they? The separatists found it within hours of the crash. That was mentioned in one of the first articles I read on Thursday. Why hasn't it been given to Malaysian Airlines yet, a full 2 days later?

It hasn't! So get your hands off your woody for Putin and try and keep up, and think about where it is and why.

Quote:
As far as satellite and radar- I'll bet that region is wired up to its eyeballs. But nobody will say exactly what they know, because that reveals their surveillance capabilities.

Didn't think of that, didja THUGR?? Of course not.

*mutters 'ASSHOLES' and walks away*

Yep, you and THGRRL are what you and Rap used to be. Didja think of that, Chris?

Anyhoo again, try to keep up again. The US has already stated that spy satellites tracked the missile and they know where it was launched from.

"WASHINGTON — The United States government has concluded that the passenger jet felled over Ukraine was shot down by a Russian-made surface-to-air missile launched from rebel-held territory and most likely provided by Russia to pro-Moscow separatists, officials said on Friday.

While American officials are still investigating the chain of events leading to the destruction of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 on Thursday, they pointed to a series of indicators of Russian involvement. Among other things, military and intelligence officials said there was mounting evidence that a Ukrainian military plane shot down three days earlier had been fired upon from inside Russian territory by the same sort of missile battery used to bring down the civilian jet."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane
-ukraine.html

Back to the black box - it's not that I think it will tell us anything, but the fact that it's being controlled by Russia says a lot about what they're doing with the crash site - hiding evidence.

"KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government accused Russian-backed insurgents on Saturday of blocking recovery workers from the crash site of Malaysia Airlines 17, which was shot down by a missile on Thursday, and of trying to destroy evidence surrounding the attack.

“The Russian-led terrorists are preventing access of the international community and foreign governments to the location where the Malaysia Airlines airplane crashed on July 17 and are obstructing the launch of an investigation,” the government’s statement said."
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane
-ukraine.html?_r=0

But sig won't believe this because when the Ukrainian govt says something they are lying. It's only the truth when the Russians say it.

My turn to mutter *asshole* and walk away. ;)

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GEEZER

Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:32 PM (P)

Seems like the Ukraine rebels are denying OSCE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) investigators access to the crash site.

Quote:
A team of international observers say pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine have limited their access to the wreckage of a Malaysia Airlines plane.

An OSCE spokesman said access to the site had been controlled by armed men, with one firing shots into the air.

It is believed flight MH17 crashed after being hit by a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area in east Ukraine on Thursday.

All 298 people - including 80 children - on board died.

The Boeing 777 was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. It fell between Krasni Luch in Luhansk region and Shakhtarsk in the neighbouring region of Donetsk.

....

Michael Bociurkiw, a member of the OSCE team, said their access had been limited despite assurances from the regional rebel commander that they would be allowed into the site.

"A visibly intoxicated armed guard fired his rifle in the air when one of the observers walked out of the prescribed area," Mr Bociurkiw told journalists.

The 25 monitors withdrew after just over an hour, having been been unable to set up an access corridor for specialist teams to investigate the crash, he added.

Several bodies had been marked but left exposed to the elements, Mr Bociurkiw said, and rescue workers were unable to indicate whose responsibility it would be to remove them.

Thomas Greminger, the Swiss chairman of the OSCE's permanent council, told the BBC they would continue to work to see that an international investigation could take place.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28381460

Yep. That'll ease suspicions.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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AURAPTOR

Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:37 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Pardon my French here, but I'd invite you to attempt to copulate with yourself.
Signy has an agenda. It's MAINLY truth-seeking IMHO. She actually HAS been right more than wrong. If you are indeed a real person, and not a plant to diffuse dissent, please stop being a dork. Truth from the 'side' you disagree with is still truth. Just like lies from peeps you agree with are still lies.
I'm kind of sick of the personal attacks here, attack the facts (or lack thereof), not the political persuasion of the person posting.
Otherwise I will use a Force-choke on your sorry non-Jedi ass...

Works both ways Chris. "big brainwashed lug" "assholes" even "son" is damned condescending.

But I take your point: name calling doesn't make someone more right, often just makes the person look petty.

Chris is just being more of a dick than usual, as of late.

He can't help himself sometimes.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:46 PM (P)

"When Russian tanks used to roll into a foreign country, it was known as an invasion. Today it’s known as a “failure by Russia to de-escalate [a] situation.” That was State Department spokesperson Marie Harf’s comment on widespread reports, since corroborated by NATO, that three T-64 tanks, along with multiple rocket launchers and armored personnel carriers (APCs), entered east Ukraine from Russia last week. And such are the gifts of diplomatic nicety still being bestowed upon Russian President Vladimir Putin that the United States continues to treat him as a recalcitrant child at reform school rather than as a lying authoritarian who still seeks to partition or balkanize Ukraine. If only he’d behave himself"…

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/19/russia-is-still-meddl
ing-in-ukraine-and-it-s-getting-worse.html

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THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:48 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
What you don't realize is you are the one always on the wrong side of the facts.
Pardon my French here, but I'd invite you to attempt to copulate with yourself.
Signy has an agenda. It's MAINLY truth-seeking IMHO. She actually HAS been right more than wrong. If you are indeed a real person, and not a plant to diffuse dissent, please stop being a dork. Truth from the 'side' you disagree with is still truth. Just like lies from peeps you agree with are still lies.
I'm kind of sick of the personal attacks here, attack the facts (or lack thereof), not the political persuasion of the person posting.
Otherwise

I will use a Force-choke on your sorry non-Jedi ass...

What's a sorry non Jedi ass precious what's a sorry non Jedi ass???

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SIGNYM

Saturday, July 19, 2014 8:23 PM (P)

Quote:
I think we both made our points and it is feeling more like an attack to me.
Yanno, SON, there are only so many times I can be insulted before I insult back. Look back at your posts, SON, and tell me you don't deserve a crap-ton of disrespect coming right back at you.

Does that sound patronizing?

GOOD!

When you behave more respectfully and can learn to discuss issues like a grownup, I'll treat you like a grownup. Until then, you're just a snotty little asshole kid who should be slapped upside the head, as far as I'm concerned.

OH, and BTW, you said exactly these...

Quote:
It wasn't I can’t help it if it goes against your delusions that somehow we trained he people who did it so we are responsible.
which is a logically flawed argument (Have you figured out how yet?) and demonstrates typical USAn immorality. Basically, son, you have the ethics of a cockroach. Also,
Quote:
Apparently the Ukrainian military does not possess these types of systems
This, from a person who claims superior ability to separate out "facts" from "innuendo". HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

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THGRRI

Saturday, July 19, 2014 8:56 PM (P)

I don't think so Sig.

I think perhaps you should go back and read my posts. They speak to your obvious choice of who is doing what that fly’s in the face of truth. There is now film of the missile system being hauled back into Russia. My suggesting Ukraine apparently does not possess these systems was based on early reports. The fact that they are nowhere near the area where the missile was fired is the point.

As I said, this is going to unravel fast and as it has you started shifting your response’s to my posts. Instead of deflecting accusations away from Putin you are now picking a fight. Sorry, not buying into it.

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MAL4PREZ

Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:08 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
When you behave more respectfully and can learn to discuss issues like a grownup, I'll treat you like a grownup. Until then, you're just a snotty little asshole kid who should be slapped upside the head, as far as I'm concerned.

Your journey is complete. You have become Rappy!

Really, indistinguishable.

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