Our truest selves?
POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Thursday, July 11, 2013 06:34
VIEWED: 6594
PAGE 1 of 1
One of the underlying memes of the current age is to use our feelings as the pole star for our behavior and decisions:
If you need to make a decision, develop your intuition, and trust your gut.
Marry the person you're most attracted to, even if he (or she) has some troubling habits.
Keep your dreams alive, follow your star, believe in yourself.
Use righteous anger as a guide towards meting out justice.
Instantaneous reactions are your best assessment of new people, new places, new situations.
You're sick because you're not true to yourself.
Self-esteem is important to success.
If you believe in it, you can fly.
You really want that candy.
---------------------
In the land of self involvement, there is seldom a mention of realistic assessment and decision-making. We are so used to being coddled and marketed to as individuals, we think that the world will reward us with success if we can just maintain ourselves in some sort of self-referencing hypomanic state. Nearly every show is a paean to someone who tried to follow convention, then decided at the last moment to ditch the bridal veil/ draw a gun/ quit their job/ pursue their nemesis/ run off with another person/ defy the boss. If you also watch TV with that in mind, I think you'll see that over and over and over again, nearly non-stop in every show and commercial.
There are seldom any shows where the heart and the head collided, and the head won... and turned out to be the wizer. Shows where people tried to make realistic decisions in a fog of uncertainty, and turned out OK. I can name a few, but I can count them on the fingers of one hand. Most shows have their characters go on an emotional bender and then pull off a miraculous success by sheer force of will and a huge (HUGE) dose of Hollywood scriptwriter magic.
But is it a good meme to be suggesting? Are our feelings the best guide to decision-making? If we stay true to ourselves, will we really find happiness? Or are our feelings just handles by which we can be manipulated? Are we just giving up real effectiveness in our lives for mere individualized self-indulgence?
------------------------
One of the problems I have with asking "How do I feel about this?" as the deciding factor is that how we feel about things is often based on childhood events. And since looking into oneself is permanently self-referencing, it blocks us learning anything since then. Are we then stuck with motivations and understandings that were imposed on us when we were kids? If we stay in that mode, how do we grow???
The world doesn't give a shit about how we "feel" and how happy we think we "deserve" to be. Whole cultures existed with little focus on happiness- there were hard times of diseases and unending toil. Survival was the focus. Happiness, when it arrived, was unlooked for.
-------------------
Of course, feelings are strong motivators and hard to ignore. One shouldn't ignore one's feelings. However, I find it helpful to identify and acknowledge my feelings- especially my most uncomfortable ones: I feel uncertain, I feel angry, I feel afraid. I find when I do that, it puts my feelings in perspective, as another thing to take into consideration when coming up with the best choice. It's better to do that, IMHO, than to be driven by avoidance into ignoring things I should best pay attention to, or deciding on ephemeral reactions.
------------
Anyway, what do you think? Heart- gut? Head? Some combination? And why?
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Some of those common belief systems are incredibly flawed, but very popular. I think they lead to a lot of bad decisions and unhappiness.
The especially bad one would have to be 'if you want it enough and believe in yourself, you can do it'. Well guess what, I wanted to go live on Mars. Suppose that my self belief wasn't great enough, as it never happened (not anything to do with I don't have the physical or intellectual capabilities to be an astronaut, my country doesn't have a space program, and they probably won't get people to Mars in my lifetime' No, really, I should have just believed harder.
One side of my family is littered with poor decision making, people who threw caution to the wind and followed their dreams, without actually working out first whether their dreams were realistic or even possible. This is the kind of mentality that leads people to bankruptcy or even jail. Underneath it all is a sense of entitlement - "I can get anything I want." Er no....
Likewise, the ridiculousness around illness. How many times have you heard about people 'fighting cancer' 'not giving in' WTF are they actually doing? They are being treated by the medical profession. Whether they survive or not, depends on the aggression of the cancer, how it spreads and how bad it is when diagnosed. People who die of cancer or any other disease haven't given up, the disease has killed them. I find this attitude appalling and insensitive to those who have lost loved ones. who includeplenty of determined, hope filled people. From some of the rubbish you hear, it almosts sounds like a personal failing not to survive.
It's not that people listen to their emotions, its that they are stupid and believe stupid ideas. Most people are not even very wise when it comes to emotions, and would struggle to name more than 3 emotions that they have actually felt. Angry, sad, happy would be probably the most the majority of the population could do.
People live in denial of how they feel because of the ridiculous belief systems which value cheerfulness, fearlessness, optimism over every other feeling. Most people are terrified of admitting to themselves (let alone anyone else) the seemingly more unpaletable emotions of despair, dread, lonliness, envy et al. And if you don't admit to them, you don't manage them, and hence you end up with people who are emotional time bombs - toxic or destructive in their relationships, or both.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"From some of the rubbish you hear, it almost sounds like a personal failing not to survive."
Hey, I really, REALLY, REALLY!!!! want to live forever. Yeah, that'll happen.
I often run into heart v head. My feelings tend to be powerful but it tends to work out much better when I listen to my head. There are a few exceptions when heart and head combined into one flawless clarity - but that's rare. Otherwise, I look at following my heart as an indulgence, when I have the luxury of being able to afford losing whatever is at risk.
As for society at large, I think it's part and parcel of the US reverence for the individualistic idiot - the uneducated person who says I may not know much about art, but I know what I like ... along with the myth that you CAN succeed with enough - well, we’ve discounted the luck part of luck and pluck - but lots of pluck will guarantee your triumph.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I'm like KIKI, I tend to be strongly, powerfully emotional. It's easy for emotions to run my life. But, this isn't about me, really. What I see (on TV in any case) is the constant exhortation to turn off your brain.
In any detective show:
"Why do you think he's guilty"
"I just have this feeling"
Oh, yuh.
I think there are a few reasons why people buy into this:
1) People hate to feel strong, negative emotions. Who likes to feel stupid, or unsure, unloved, afraid, jealous, powerless, or angry? OF COURSE everyone wants to feel certain, strong, powerful, safe, and accepted!
2) Between people's desire to to feel good and their desire to feel in-charge, this isn't a hard sell. So people walk around in haze of semi-synthetic emotions, which actually keeps them rather powerless in unable to effect REAL change.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I agree with much of your point here. I see examples of this every day: some kids expect good grades just because they worked so hard, even if they never really learned the material. Parents will even come in demanding good grades for little Suzi or Johnny just because she/he spent so much time on the homework! No matter that she/he can't add 2 and 2. This attitude leads to kids wasting a lot of time doing brainless exercises and never learning how to actually think.
A place where this attitude really drove me nuts was with a sports team I helped coach. In the middle of a tight game the kids (and the head coach *facepalm*) would get all emotional about how they had to just *want* it more and put it all out there yada yada yada. Then the next day at practice they'd stand around gabbing (the team and the head coach) instead of working on their skills. D-uh!
I think of it as a Miracle on Ice misunderstanding. Yeah, this team won in a miraculous way, but it wasn't because they just got lucky, or just really wanted it in the moment. It's because they worked their asses off. People love the end of the movie and seem to forget all those earlier scenes, of kids skating till they puked.
As for the TV memes - I don't have cable TV, never will again. I absolutely hate commercials and any form of advertising. I am always surprised by friends who actually sit attentively through commercials, as they really like being manipulated like that. (I know, they just aren't aware of it.) The mute button exists for a reason you know! Take the 5 minutes to check in with your buddies or something, instead of letting these people program you. That's what advertising does. It's psychological manipulation to make you want things whether you need them or not. It's terrible.
So, I agree on all that, and being a scientist I definitely live with the value of logic and using the head rather than the gut.
However...
I think I'll write the differing view in a separate post. I'll try to be succinct, but it may be hard to explain in brief.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Oh, I just wanted to add something: it's even true of the so called 'news' (which drives me crazy due to its lack of content). But it's almost like a formalized play:
open with the dramatic (it it bleeds, it leads)
second act, do an 'analysis' by starting with a heartwarming/wrenching story (she never knew what arranging a funeral without insurance could be like until the unthinkable happened one day ...)
third act, do a quick run-through of not too terrible national news if the current news is local, or international news if the current news is national
close with a heartwarming human interest story (no one expected the kitten to survive, but thanks to the NF fire department ...)
I bet you can almost hear the voices of the 'news' anchors saying them.
The aim is to carefully manipulate our emotions and massage us into an entertained and compliant stupor.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
OK, so I am Spock-like. When some events occur that evokes an emotional response (see? Spock.) I do not just go with it. There's a process of: What am I feeling? Really? Why? Is it what I should feel? Is it ok to express that right now? Should I express something else? etc etc. Not that I don't feel things, but I've always been analytical about it all. My head examines my gut, so to speak.
At some point many years ago I began to adjust this a bit. At the time, I called it "thinking without words." Try to be aware of how your thoughts work. For me, it's pretty much always a narration of words flying about in my head, a somewhat logical process though many words certainly do spring up from the subconscious. But they are words. There is a controlled and conscious method of thought.
I think the "thought without words" came from ice hockey. There are pure moments in the game where a series of action happen without any single word. I can describe the action as: "The other player is going to make a bad pass and if I step up here, now I can get it and catch it in my skates and cut left no deke right and go to the backhand... " etc. But in the moment there's no time for all that. In the moment the decision to deke right is not planned. Something deeper than the conscious mind is driving, and it's connected in to all the limbs and the hands and the feet in the skates. It's just really a cool thing when it happens.
My point: I think that if we take the proper time to train ourselves, to learn that technique of feet and hands, we reach a point where it's best to let go of our conscious control and let our subconscious and our gut and our emotions take control.
More examples
A concert pianist playing Claire de Lune has no logical control of the timing between those opening chords, the changes of tempo throughout. A computer could be set up to tap it out, but it is the pianist's ability to allow their emotion to dictate the timing, and trust their technique to carry through, that makes the music.
I did a dance concert a few weeks ago. It was the first time I really let go of micro-managing dance. I didn't compulsively review every phrase and entrance and exit in a state of angst that I'd screw up. My body just knew what to do. It was much more enjoyable and, I think, expressive performance than I've ever had before.
Yes, that's all the arts, but I think this applies to science as well. With the significant caveat that time must be taken to inform the gut, One's "instincts" can lead to brilliant insights. Question for students: how long must I spend on a treadmill to work off a bag of M&Ms? They've handed in, for a grade, anything from microsecs to millenia. They never take a minute to ask their gut if that makes sense.
My point reworded: A detective has years of experience buried in their subconscious. That thing is powerful. It's the largest part of our brains, I think. When they have a "gut" feeling that the evidence isn't telling the whole story, they should at very least consider the option.
Back to the OP. I think the problem is not so much that people trust to their guts and emotions too much, it's that they're too lazy to educate their guts first, or to assess things when the gut isn't leading them good places.
Oh, one more thing. I think that listening to the gut is a way to avoid all that programming that goes on. My example: if someone asked me when I was 22 what I wanted to do with my life, there was always a first answer that flitted by before I could even consciously consider it. Because that just couldn't have worked (my programming said.) And now I regret that I did not allow myself to consider it.
So my version of "listening to my gut" is trying to find that first answer that comes out of my brain before all my fears and logic and programing smother it.
OK, I'm still Spock-like with all the analysis. But it's a lot more in
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
If you believe in it, you can fly.
When I was a kid, I had this odd dream , of a younger me, who'd jump off the furniture, try like hell to fly, and 'almost'could , for half a moment, and then I'd hit the ground. It was almost like a memory, instead of a dream, as I recalled ( in my dream state ) that if only my arms were a bit stronger, I could do it. The thing about it all was the sensation of half hovering, in the air, as I was on the verge of staying aloft.
After going back and forth, trying to figure out if that really was just a dream, or some memory in deep recesses, I actually gave it a shot, just to make sure.
Our minds don't know reality from our imagination.
T'was a fun dream, at least.
Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
Resident USA Freedom Fundie
" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
SignyM
Maybe the measure of what our truest self is, isn't what we feel (even though we're encouraged to think that), or what we tell ourselves are our reasons - but what we do, or fail to do. What we do is everything all rolled into one succinct real-time sum of our thoughts, our impulses, our memories, our feelings - acknowledged or not - our histories and environments, and that small smidgen of decision making capability that rests askew on everything else.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
If you believe in it, you can fly.
Don't forget the companion to this one.
"If we all would just..."
"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"If we all would just..."
Do you go out of your way to be a stupid douche?
No one is claiming that anyone BELIEVES we could get "all to just ...". It's a thought experiment, a 'what if'.
No wonder you can't be taken seriously, old fart.
ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU KID!
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:"If we all would just..."
Originally posted by 1kiki:
No one is claiming that anyone BELIEVES we could get "all to just ...". It's a thought experiment, a 'what if'.
So you don't really believe that the U.S. can - through in-country reductions in greenhouse emissions and worldwide jawboning to convince everyone else to do the same - reverse global climate change? Cause that's kind'a my point.
"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
WAY TO GO MR STRAWMAN!
Did I make that argument? Please - point out where.
ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU OLD FART!
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Wow, got to hijack a thought provoking non partisan thread. Way to go. Yay.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
And what if your "Truest Self" distills all the way down to a cry of outrage ?
Not an adults cry of outrage, filled with petty bitterness of not having their turn at the wheel of the machinery of oppression, full of blinkered rationalizations and justifications and excuses and jealousy of those who stand at that wheel...
But the pure, white hot rage of a child, for all the people crushed under that machine ?
Understand that, you understand me.
The only reason I'd ever want my turn at the wheel of that bastard is so I could drive the motherfucking thing off a cliff.
-F
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Very profound, Frem.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
WAY TO GO MR STRAWMAN!
Did I make that argument? Please - point out where.
"Between the US and the EU, achievable reductions are roughly 3 TIMES the increases due to China and India. So yes, in fact, the US and the EU COULD solve the problem all on their own, at least when it comes to balancing emissions from China and India. In fact, the US could solve the problem without any contribution from anyone else."
"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I don't think we have a "ture self". At least not one that is any type of constant. I think all of us are much more fluid in who we are. There may be numerous beliefs that we will always hold true, but how we move through life changes.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I don't think we have a "ture self". At least not one that is any type of constant. I think all of us are much more fluid in who we are. There may be numerous beliefs that we will always hold true, but how we move through life changes.
Hmmm. I've been avoiding posting on this thread because I don't entirely trust myself. But I think for once I might agree with you, Nick.
We're not shining glittering examples of truth, justice, and hope expressed through the philosophies of enlightenment versus romanticism. We're not even right or wrong. Those terms have little meaning beyond whatever sentiment we might attach to them, and then we tell ourselves that we're being LOGICAL about it. Heh.
Beliefs are be-LIES that help us get through the day. We build our own realities so we can stand to look ourselves in the mirror. But even ideas can crumble and where are we all then? How do people react when their whole world is pulled out from under them?
If you want to ask me what the true state of humanity is, I'll answer that it's defiance. We scream out against the dark, yell that we do have meaning, fight tooth and nail with each other, struggle against our own mortality. Everything else is just the window dressings of how we attempt to accomplish that.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:GEEZER- It seems to me that you've been arguing the "Real News" thread in every thread except the "Real News" thread. Why don't you take this post there, instead of threadjacking?
So you don't really believe that the U.S. can - through in-country reductions in greenhouse emissions and worldwide jawboning to convince everyone else to do the same - reverse global climate change? Cause that's kind'a my point.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
BYTE, NICK - I guess my point is not that we have a "true self", but that we're helpfully encouraged by the MSM to think of ourselves in one particular way, which is to short-circuit any thoughtful process and delve into our stongest desires (or fears) as our truest motivators (to motivate: to cause to move). In that state, we are easily manipulable.
I saw a sign once that said "Manipulate your stimuli". Oh, well, it could be considered kinda smutty, I guess, but it's also a profound truth. People don't have to JUST use their intellect to rationalize/excuse primarily unconscious behavior. They can at least use their intellect to identify and acknowledge whatever feeling is causing them to act (move).
FREM- There is a point in childhood where one is old enough to perceive a harsh reality, but not old enough to rationalize (explain away, minimize, contextualize) it, or even feel any agency over it. It's a good thing that you remember it so deeply. It propels you to move foreward, "never to forgive, never to forget" on behalf of others. For you, it must be hell on wheels. How're you doing, by the way?
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
BYTE, NICK - I guess my point is not that we have a "true self", but that we're helpfully encouraged by the MSM to think of ourselves in one particular way, which is to short-circuit any thoughtful process and delve into our stongest desires (or fears) as our truest motivators. In that state, we are easily manipulable.
It is not just the MSM it is everyone. Almost everyone that speaks to you is trying to influence you in one way or the other. We you realize this it takes the power away from those people. Of course the danger is not listening at all and becoming blindly set in your ways.
Movies use heroes that go with their gut not because they want people to act that way, but it makes a better story and they want people to spend their money and watch. We all know, or should, that real life does not work that way. Thing is no one is going to watch a movie in which decisions are made in a committee meeting.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
but that we're helpfully encouraged by the MSM to think of ourselves in one particular way, which is to short-circuit any thoughtful process and delve into our stongest desires (or fears) as our truest motivators. In that state, we are easily manipulable.
Sometimes. And sometimes fear is the only thing that keeps us from walking off a cliff.
Fear and mistrust and anger and cynicism and other negative emotions are not always bad things.
It's also important to recognize when someone wants something, or when you can't help someone.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Fear, anger and mistrust are GOOD things, but only when they warn you of real danger and motivate you to take proper precautions. But when they obscure reality ... as when ANY emotion obscures reality... it can cause one to do stupid things. Look at rappy- the guy is terrified of Muslims. That terror is causing him to support all kinds of stupid and ultimately self-defeating actions. That terror, stoked in millions of people, is creating the kind of "cover" that TPTB find useful to pursue actions which will ultimately destroy the very people who supported it (along with a whole bunch of others). Along the same lines, people who think "happy thoughts" despite clearly unfavorable circumstances make just as disasterous decisions. **ETA** OTOH, people who fail to see opportunities because they live their lives in a constant defensive crouch may not accomplish much. ***
So, as far as fear, anger, and mistrust... carry on! Not enough people feel those emotions; most people seem to be living in some kind of comfy cozy little cocoon (which was why they were so shocked.. shocked, I tell you!... by 9-11) and so far your emotions have led you to some interesting and useful insights. Just be prepared to realize that SOMETIMES those feelings are not reflective of all of reality.
And, learn how to handle being in the midst of ANY strong feeling.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
...Your warnings, however well-meant, serve only to make me more paranoid.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
GEEZER- It seems to me that you've been arguing the "Real News" thread in every thread except the "Real News" thread. Why don't you take this post there, instead of threadjacking?
KIKI started the threadjacking. I made this statement:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
If you believe in it, you can fly.
Don't forget the companion to this one.
"If we all would just..."
I often find that statement, or something similar, in discussions here and elsewhere. It seems to me to be the same wishful thinking as "If you believe it, you can fly", but expanded to "If everyone would just believe it, we could all fly".
I didn't mean it to apply to a particular thread, just a particular type of thought.
Besides, if I didn't respond to KIKI, I'd get the old "Geezer has no response so I must be right" from her(him?).
"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Sometimes discussions move along different lines. Some are meant to spark ideas... brainstorming sessions. Others to decide on a plan of action. Others are more contemplative. This seems to be a more contemplative thread.
But I agree with you- thinking that universal belief will make the unreal real is, of course, fantasy. OTOH, thinking that a widespread change of paradigm won't change decision-making is also fantasy. If you don't think that can occur, then you can hardly support the idea of a Libertarian society.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Your paranoid musings are always interesting. But see the addition to the post just before yours.
...Your warnings, however well-meant, serve only to make me more paranoid.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Heart, gut, head.... and why???
In today's relatively coddled world, where to begin?
Although I agree there is the tech and ability to make sure every homeless person had a home, society in general could not exist if it were true.
The TRUTH is, there are at least 10% of us at any given day who flat out don't deserve or might not even ever want to live in a conventional suburbanite home.
It's already happening with me. As well as i've set myself up, I can get nearly 2k a year in foodstamp benefits which pays most of my property taxes and insurance back to me in the way of food. Sure, it's twice as much as i ever would have spent of my own money on food, but at the same time, I'm eating better than I have in 13 years because of it.
Come Jan.... I'll be qualified for the very best Obamacare health package out there, which essentially translates to today's Medicare program.
Between those two benefits, why bother even looking for a better job?
To make enough money per hour, I'd have to increase my yearly salary today by nearly 300% to make it worth it for me to "move up".
Such is the pitfall of Communism, and such is what we'll all be enslaved to eventually.
Why should I bother inventing rockets to send to your anus for some multi-national company when i could make just as much money mopping shit off the floor in the bathroom of the same station?
Don't look at me. I make about 9k a year, and now I get all those taxes back.
I mow my lawn and keep the inside from rotting out. I don't have a wife or kids. That's all I'm accountable for to my neighborhood in my books.
I'm actually "set" from here until our self-imposed apocalypse.
It's probably why I've never gotten along with nearly any of you since i started back when GWB was destroying our country.
The only ones left here to argue the other way now are either self made rich or have enough credit to allow themselves the freetime to post here. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of anyone who disagrees with me on anything has a paid for Cable Subscription. I haven't had one of those since 2008, so I'm not as programmed as you either way by 24/hr news media.
Our truest selves....?
Actually, I've been wondering about that for quite a while now.....
Am I really the bad guy?
Sure, I've divuldged things about myself over the years and been judged rather harshly sometimes about it, but when I look around, I'm the ONLY one doing that.
The more I know about people, the less I want to know about people.
OKAY! My secret's out. I'm a part-time massive binge drinker in my bad times. I post a lot of shit I regret nearly immediately and I have to self-block myself from Facebook or even MySpace.
I can only imagine what deep dark secrets you judgers have out there.
There's a reason why I never really got into any trobule when I was growing up as the oldest of three latch-key kids when I was 10 years old.....
It's not because I have half a brain. It's because even if it's not readily apparent to people here, I DO live by a certain code.
It's a VERY rare thing when I ever judge somebody by their own personal code when I see it.
Compromising that code for any reason however, had better been followed up with an epic explanation....
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Sometimes discussions move along different lines. Some are meant to spark ideas... brainstorming sessions. Others to decide on a plan of action. Others are more contemplative. This seems to be a more contemplative thread.
But I agree with you- thinking that universal belief will make the unreal real is, of course, fantasy. OTOH, thinking that a widespread change of paradigm won't change decision-making is also fantasy. If you don't think that can occur, then you can hardly support the idea of a Libertarian society.
I have no doubt that paradigms can change, but generally the pace is glacial. Civil rights for African-Americans took well over a century, and was based in abolitionst thought that was already hundreds of years old.
I don't expect to see any major elections won by Libertarians in my lifetime, but it seems as likely a philosophy for folks to eventually grow into as any other. I'd hope that folks eventually would rather be independent and self-reliant, while understanding that they should not get there by the route of hurting others.
"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
The only ones left here to argue the other way now are either self made rich or have enough credit to allow themselves the freetime to post here. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of anyone who disagrees with me on anything has a paid for Cable Subscription. I haven't had one of those since 2008, so I'm not as programmed as you either way by 24/hr news media.
Weren't you just talking about how you have an addiction to Netflix?
I don't watch tv, or netflix.
Quote:
I can only imagine what deep dark secrets you judgers have out there.
<--- Diagnosed with major depression and anxiety from chemical imbalances. Total bitch. Likes vidja games.
Or I could whine about how my PARENTS didn't underSTAND me - like everyone else in the world, but I'd be lying if I did. I still go hiking with my dad every Saturday after I make him a sandwich, and it's not the least bit about some gender role thing. Helped my mom build a cat enclosure the last two weekends and been helping her fix up my grandmother's garden since spring.
No sad story here, just born mean. People want to judge me, that's their prerogative. People aren't gonna like me, and I don't really let it bother me anymore, because I deserve every bit of what I get. I'm no victim. People are accountable for how they act and how other people react towards them.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
The only ones left here to argue the other way now are either self made rich or have enough credit to allow themselves the freetime to post here. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of anyone who disagrees with me on anything has a paid for Cable Subscription. I haven't had one of those since 2008, so I'm not as programmed as you either way by 24/hr news media.
You are just programed by the booze. I for one will take the new media.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
If you believe in it, you can fly.
When I was a kid, I had this odd dream , of a younger me, who'd jump off the furniture, try like hell to fly, and 'almost'could , for half a moment, and then I'd hit the ground. It was almost like a memory, instead of a dream, as I recalled ( in my dream state ) that if only my arms were a bit stronger, I could do it. The thing about it all was the sensation of half hovering, in the air, as I was on the verge of staying aloft.
After going back and forth, trying to figure out if that really was just a dream, or some memory in deep recesses, I actually gave it a shot, just to make sure.
Our minds don't know reality from our imagination.
That actually explains a lot about you.
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero
"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012
Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"
Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
So you don't really believe that the U.S. can - through in-country reductions in greenhouse emissions and worldwide jawboning to convince everyone else to do the same - reverse global climate change? Cause that's kind'a my point.
I do. It's called "leading by example".
Believe it or not, the U.S. is still *THE* major trendsetter for most of the developed (and developing) world. If "green" is cool, it will spread. You have this idea that one can't lessen one's carbon footprint without making enormous sacrifices, but you can't really support that with real-world examples.
Mostly what it comes down to is that Kiki and Signy suggested something, and you had a reflexive instant reaction to yell "NYUH-UH!!!" in response to it, without really thinking anything through. You're so wrapped up in your own partisan bullshit that you can't accept a good idea until you have it yourself.
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero
"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012
Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"
Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Well, where to begin?
Our truest selves....?
Actually, I've been wondering about that for quite a while now.....
Am I really the bad guy?
Sure, I've divuldged things about myself over the years and been judged rather harshly sometimes about it, but when I look around, I'm the ONLY one doing that.
The more I know about people, the less I want to know about people.
OKAY! My secret's out. I'm a part-time massive binge drinker in my bad times. I post a lot of shit I regret nearly immediately and I have to self-block myself from Facebook or even MySpace.
I can only imagine what deep dark secrets you judgers have out there.
There's a reason why I never really got into any trobule when I was growing up as the oldest of three latch-key kids when I was 10 years old.....
It's not because I have half a brain. It's because even if it's not readily apparent to people here, I DO live by a certain code.
It's a VERY rare thing when I ever judge somebody by their own personal code when I see it.
Compromising that code for any reason however, had better been followed up with an epic explanation....
I have at times numbed myself to situations that were beyond my control, and which caused me a great deal of anxiety, in several glasses of wine or rum, or- more often, a slice of bread and margarine. Not saying that everyone does, or should, but it's understandable! There's a lot beyond our control, a lot we don't know, situations that just don't fit our personality: an introvert required to be an extrovert, a timid person required to be bold, a decisive person required to be politic, a skeptic required to trust, an attention-deficit person required to be detail-oriented.
Unfortunately, at some point, "you drink because you're sad, and you're sad because you drink".
But you have this "code" and, whatever it is, it seems to be somewhat dyfunctional. Perhaps you're suffering from a serious disconnect between what you want and how you think you can get it.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
FREM- There is a point in childhood where one is old enough to perceive a harsh reality, but not old enough to rationalize (explain away, minimize, contextualize) it, or even feel any agency over it. It's a good thing that you remember it so deeply. It propels you to move foreward, "never to forgive, never to forget" on behalf of others. For you, it must be hell on wheels. How're you doing, by the way?
Unlike many, I am entirely well aware of how the earliest experiences of my life define and guide the actions I take, especially since it was made quite clear to me very early on that me and my values would never, ever be welcome in the world and society I was going to have to live in.
I resent that, you bet, but I held *MY* values, and fuck societys attempts to inflict them upon me, the very first of which was racism, and the end point of THAT was me beating another child with a chair in kindergarten which is certainly not normal behavior - but I was angry at "THEM", the collective name for the hypocritical and abusive bastards involved with and practicing religion and racism and children-are-scum attitudes, and more or less declared war, such as is possible in the mind of someone so young, in that moment.
That made me weird and maybe dangerous, the second blowup (over refusing the pledge) was the capstone that made me a pariah, and the third, slashing up the bully and his cronies, made me downright intolerable.
Downside of that, it took decades to learn any real empathy for humans again, and only by witnessing all too often from point blank range, the plight of those who our society stomps on to lift itself up and pretend it's something more than a sham.
Anyways, that force-focus rage, I am not entirely sure of which is cause and effect, but the berserkerang and early injustices seem very closely intertwined, as historically those were people who were unwelcome socially even before it tended to manifest - and yet the root of almost all of the serious violence I have dished out, has been in fact compassion, of the HOW DARE YOU! stripe... only wish I had learned a helluva lot earlier how using violence does its own damage, cause no matter how much tougher the hammer is than the nails, the hammer takes a beating too, and not just physically, yanno ?
As for currently, I get by, pretty well in fact, enough so to feel off and on guilty about it, which leads to my notorious meddling - we did a lot, a LOT of wheely-deely finagaling a little while back to get more and better mental health care and access around here, without hitting anyone elses pet projects hard enough to lose their support, that was a hard won and valued victory, and a realistically effective one - while everyone else was either screaming for a gun ban, or feeding the fire by fighting one in the most stupid counterproductive ways ever, while any reasonable voices were lost in the shouting, which accomplished not a damn thing in the end...
But we GOT the job done here, thanks in large part to Yousef Rabhi, who is an all around awesome guy - cause as always my issue ain't with the tools with which they do it, but the reasons folk inflict harm on each other to begin with, the root causes, so IMHO this was a more important matter.
http://annarbor.com/news/washtenaw-county-moves-to-hire-39-mental-heal
th-workers-to-accommodate-growing-demand/
And of course, I am a little bit of gallows-humor amused at prettymuch ALL the stuff I was vaguely and obliquely referring to ever since I came here (so as not to draw heat down on Haken and FFNet) finally coming out in a torrential cascade, and very much gratified at Glenn Greenwald (who was smart enough to leave this fuckedup country first, something I commented on at the time) being the one to stick pins in these bastards over it, although I fear for his safety, hell look what happened to Hastings - NOBODY believes that was an accident.
Other than that, nothing much - researching security UAVs cause a remote ope
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
We picked up a Syma S107C RC Copter as a test-of-concept, which is sound enough, although the S107C itself isn't much use beyond harrassing folks in the office and tormenting the cat.
Oh, that sounds plenty useful. Just not in the way you might have hoped. :D
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero
"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012
Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"
Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
OK, so this explains why my visits to RWED are tend to be short lurks. A topic comes up that I find interesting and that I've thought a lot about, and yes my posts are long and I don't anyone for not reading them all, but I think on topic. And no one responds. But you are soooo eager to jump at Rappy's trolling and get down on Six's broozing.
You wonder why this place has gone to the trolls? Because that's what works here.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I read your post and nodded all the way through. Guess you couldn't see that bit. Keep posting. I enjoy what you write, even though I might miss some depending on whats happening in my life and how much I am lurking.
Sometimes I read from the bottom up if I've missed a bit. Big mistake as Rap has invariably posted a one liner on the end.
(I too didn't get any responses BTW - seems I don't mind carrying on conversations with myself)
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
OK, so this explains why my visits to RWED are tend to be short lurks. A topic comes up that I find interesting and that I've thought a lot about, and yes my posts are long and I don't anyone for not reading them all, but I think on topic. And no one responds. But you are soooo eager to jump at Rappy's trolling and get down on Six's broozing.
You wonder why this place has gone to the trolls? Because that's what works here.
As with many threads, this one has gone off on several tangents.
People say things here. We don't control how others respond.
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero
"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012
Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"
Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
As with many threads, this one has gone off on several tangents.
People say things here. We don't control how others respond.
You control how you respond, and Mikey, though I do love you as much as I can an anonymous internet person I really know nothing about, you do tend choose ton g one way a lot more than the other.
Yeah, yeah, I'm 100% immune to it. No one is. But big picture: any community of people chooses what their community is like, either consciously or because it's just a lot easier to win the million and first battle-of-wits with the resident logic-challenged troll than it is to engage in thoughtful conversation.
So, have of it. But own up to what this community has chosen for itself. You can't blame the trolls. They wouldn't live so long if they weren't so well fed.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Mal, in response to your post.
Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
OK, so I am Spock-like. When some events occur that evokes an emotional response (see? Spock.) I do not just go with it. There's a process of: What am I feeling? Really? Why? Is it what I should feel? Is it ok to express that right now? Should I express something else? etc etc. Not that I don't feel things, but I've always been analytical about it all. My head examines my gut, so to speak.
At some point many years ago I began to adjust this a bit. At the time, I called it "thinking without words." Try to be aware of how your thoughts work. For me, it's pretty much always a narration of words flying about in my head, a somewhat logical process though many words certainly do spring up from the subconscious. But they are words. There is a controlled and conscious method of thought.
I think the "thought without words" came from ice hockey. There are pure moments in the game where a series of action happen without any single word. I can describe the action as: "The other player is going to make a bad pass and if I step up here, now I can get it and catch it in my skates and cut left no deke right and go to the backhand... " etc. But in the moment there's no time for all that. In the moment the decision to deke right is not planned. Something deeper than the conscious mind is driving, and it's connected in to all the limbs and the hands and the feet in the skates. It's just really a cool thing when it happens.
My point: I think that if we take the proper time to train ourselves, to learn that technique of feet and hands, we reach a point where it's best to let go of our conscious control and let our subconscious and our gut and our emotions take control.
*I've had similar experiences, and come to a similar conclusion although via different paths.
I grew up in fear of emotions, and not being able to manage very strong feelings. My mother had a breakdown when I was young and, being the only girl, there was a sense from all around me (and myself) that I was destined 'to lose' it sometime in my life. Strong emotions were not very well tolerated anyway - you tended to be left to cry it out or reprimanded for showing extreme distress or anger.
Fast forward to adulthood and turns out none of this is very helpful in managing day to day ups and downs of life. Firstly, not being able to seek out or expect comfort when I needed it, or give it to others. That's probably given me the most difficulties and has ruined countless friendships.
I also had the misfortune to seek counselling from counsellors who practised very heavy handed forms of CBT, which for me was a disastrous. The whole message of CBT is to mistrust your emotions, question them, check for rational validation. 'Is this really an appropriate feeling?' For someone who already struggled with understanding what I was feeling and tended to be harsh about what i was feeling, this just confused me even more.
About 8 years ago I did a train the trainer course that changed my life. It was around teaching parents to raise emotionally resilient children and was adapted from pyschologists like Golemand and Gottman. It requires that before you try this on your kids, (or train in it) you have to think about how you feel about emotions. What were the messages you got as a child? How did your family act around emotions? Secondly, it encourages you to understand and accept ALL of your emotions as being valid, while requiring that you have ways of managing them. This has been all very good for me, and apart from being a great strategy for parenting, has helped me cope with difficult stuff in my own life.
Your examples of how emotion/intuition is required for creative quests also rings true for me as I am now learning the piano. The teacher talks about muscle memory and training one's ear. All different from that higher brain stuff where you reason things out, which you need while
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
OK, so this explains why my visits to RWED are tend to be short lurks. A topic comes up that I find interesting and that I've thought a lot about, and yes my posts are long and I don't anyone for not reading them all, but I think on topic. And no one responds. But you are soooo eager to jump at Rappy's trolling and get down on Six's broozing.
You wonder why this place has gone to the trolls? Because that's what works here.
._.
Sorry.
I went back and reread, and I think I agree there. I'm probably in the middle - I think it's a bit dangerous to let one particular style of thinking dominate the approach to all situations. I think people in the know can tailor convincing arguments to either style, and they also probably do. The "wait a minute" response, whether from a logical basis or an emotional basis is one of our most important reactions.
Although, I confess that if someone starts to talk TOO touchy feely and sentimental, I tend to react negatively towards that while I don't react negatively towards pure science/logic.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Just a little bit more threadjacking, then I'll quit.
Geezer, where did I say we could, or should 'ALL just ...'? Nothing happens in this society with us 'ALL just ...'' A lot of times a FEW just ..., sometimes it's the MAJORITY just ..., but we don't 'ALL just ...'.
So, please READ my post again. REALLY READ ***MY WORDS***, and stop arguing with the voices in your head. You'll find comprehension goes so much better if you do.
"Between the US and the EU, achievable reductions are roughly 3 TIMES the increases due to China and India. So yes, in fact, the US and the EU COULD solve the problem all on their own, at least when it comes to balancing emissions from China and India. In fact, the US could solve the problem without any contribution from anyone else."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I wasn't very good at expressing emotions either, though not really as a fault of my parents, just another from birth thing I had where I tended to be really quiet and not expressive. And I was also mistrustful, even of my parents, and so I always deliberately set myself apart from people.
It really was only about five years ago, coincidentally when I found this board, that I really began drooling all my emotional bullshit everywhere, and it's been really hard to stop. But I've been making the effort.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Expressing emotions is different from understanding what you feel. There is nothing about being emotional resilient that calls for people to pour out every scrap of feeling to others, even though at times that might be useful.
The idea is that for people who can understand their own emotional responses, they don't get overwhelmed by strong emotions, and they can therefore manage living through them better than someone who has no understanding. I'm putting it rather crudely.
The fact is I'm still not particularly emotionally intelligent, even though I've come along way, I do get overwhelmed when things go wrong and can be quite paralysed. I have to make a conscious effort to talk to myself ie 'this is what grief feels like, you feel it in your chest and it makes it hard to breathe. If you work on your breathing, it will help you feel better. You will not feel this bad forever' etc - while also doing some practical stuff ie 'what can I do when I feel bad - who is good to talk to etc etc.'
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
OK, after all my whining, I have to walk the walk and spend some time replying thoughtfully.
Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Unlike many, I am entirely well aware of how the earliest experiences of my life define and guide the actions I take, especially since it was made quite clear to me very early on that me and my values would never, ever be welcome in the world and society I was going to have to live in.
Yeah, this. It's a conclusion I've come back to time and again in my life. Have to say, one thing I love about NYC is that "freaks" like us, those who do not want the average American "dream", are fairly common here. It's why I can't live many other places.
Quote:Wow. Interesting.
was me beating another child with a chair in kindergarten which is certainly not normal behavior - but I was angry at "THEM"
I'm trying to remember the name of a book a long ago roommate of mine had. I didn't read it, but we discussed the idea: that a good many "insane" people are not really insane, they are only having rational responses to an insane society.
Quote:I wish I'd had the courage to do some of this. I experienced bullies both my age and older, and I was crushed by them.
That made me weird and maybe dangerous, the second blowup (over refusing the pledge) was the capstone that made me a pariah, and the third, slashing up the bully and his cronies, made me downright intolerable.
Here's something uplifting: I recently became aware of an institutionalized adult bully. I spoke up against it with some small effect. More effective was a teenager who stood up in class and read a reasonable but honest and gentle manifesto against the bully (yes, a teacher). I am not deep enough in the system to know what all followed, but there was improvement. I pulled that brave teen aside and told him how awesome he was, no matter what Management had to say. (Also, he's brilliant in many ways and won't be held back by any of this.)
The new generation has these kinds of kids in it. I have hope.
Quote:And this kind of hammering only creates more nails. I know something of how you think Frem, but as I age I have discovered that a gentle approach reveals that most of these nails aren't so very sharp. Many are just as scared and misunderstood as everyone else.
only wish I had learned a helluva lot earlier how using violence does its own damage, cause no matter how much tougher the hammer is than the nails, the hammer takes a beating too, and not just physically, yanno ?
Some don't back down, sure, but I know it's all on them. I know they're just not reacting to me. So I dismiss them.
As for your current works: I do understand your struggles, as I have lived in that kind of Midwest. I suppose I could have chosen to stay and work at it, but that's not for me. It would have only made me and others unhappy. I am better in a blue state gathered up with all the other oddities.
But more power to you who stay and fight the good fight.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I grew up in fear of emotions, and not being able to manage very strong feelings. My mother had a breakdown when I was young and, being the only girl, there was a sense from all around me (and myself) that I was destined 'to lose' it sometime in my life. Strong emotions were not very well tolerated anyway - you tended to be left to cry it out or reprimanded for showing extreme distress or anger.
I'm here with you on this. Really, in a serious way. (Sidenote: I think you and I are approaching this from the opposite side as sig, who started more emotional and has shifted to become more logical. Proof that balance is best.) Anyhow, showing emotion in my history has been just a recipe for showing people how to hurt me. That hesitation is burnt into me, and I think it will always be my instinctual reaction to hide my emotions. I rarely LOL. I don't have a vocal laugh. Isn't that sad? Just how I am.
Quote:Yep. Check.
Firstly, not being able to seek out or expect comfort when I needed it, or give it to others. That's probably given me the most difficulties and has ruined countless friendships.
I looked up CBT on wiki. Don't quite get it. It does make me think of my dad, a sober alcoholic who used to say (as part of being sober): "If I'm mad, I'm wrong." Now I understand that was how he checked his own reactions to negative emotions, but me, being young and impressionable (total daddy's girl!) took it mean I should doubt and bury my feelings.
But which I mean, you said: "For someone who already struggled with understanding what I was feeling and tended to be harsh about what i was feeling, this just confused me even more." Yes, yes, and yes.
Quote:More yes. My first good round of therapy as an adult, I discovered that I felt that anything that made me happy was wrong. How in the hell did I get there? My logic was at war with my emotions, unfortunately.
What were the messages you got as a child? How did your family act around emotions? Secondly, it encourages you to understand and accept ALL of your emotions as being valid, while requiring that you have ways of managing them.
So that's where I counter the OP. It is vital that I listen to and respect my gut, or I will never find my way to doing what makes me happy.
Wow, the piano. I can't handle all those notes! But I have been trying to play the cello for years, and although I don't play in front of people often, I find that I play best when 1: I have been practicing on a regular basis so the left hand knows where the shifts are and the right hand has a "feel" for the bow; and 2) I do not listen to what I'm actually playing, but have some imaginary flow of the perfect form of the music in my head.
Not that I can play anything anywhere near perfect, but when I'm driven by what the notes ought to be saying, I don't think about shifting and bowing. I feel like the notes and phrases are coming out of some internal place, as if I'm singing. I wouldn't impose this on an audience, given that I started when I was 30 and don't practice often, but I think of it as a way to access the deep parts of my brain. Meditation, perhaps?
Anyway, back to the piano: my theories as the subconscious are all about piano. I cannot imagine how even a mediocre pianist plays all those notes without giving in to a serious non-controlling subconscious brain that is far beyond me to find. Yet.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
It really was only about five years ago, coincidentally when I found this board, that I really began drooling all my emotional bullshit everywhere, and it's been really hard to stop. But I've been making the effort.
Why? Yeah, you had a few times that were a little over the edge, (as have we all) but I think you've learned from them. It's been a long since I found you anything but unaffected and entertaining.
Keep on, imho.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I need to think a bit about what this means. I guess, for me, whether I understand it or not I do not express it by default. I try to understand so I can express something useful and acceptable.
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Expressing emotions is different from understanding what you feel. There is nothing about being emotional resilient that calls for people to pour out every scrap of feeling to others, even though at times that might be useful.
I don't claim that my way is good. :)
Quote:
The idea is that for people who can understand their own emotional responses, they don't get overwhelmed by strong emotions, and they can therefore manage living through them better than someone who has no understanding. I'm putting it rather crudely.
OK. Need to think about this more too.
Try this: I am not in the habit of having emotional responses, so when I have a real one I control it tightly because I do not know how to control it and fear what it will do if I let it go.
I don't get overwhelmed because I don't understand the emotion.
Quote:LOL Amen sister! Totally what I do, thinking through all those details.
The fact is I'm still not particularly emotionally intelligent, even though I've come along way, I do get overwhelmed when things go wrong and can be quite paralysed.
Can't recall the last time it was necessary... well maybe a few. Those are for a separate thread I think. :)
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
I need to think a bit about what this means. I guess, for me, whether I understand it or not I do not express it by default. I try to understand so I can express something useful and acceptable.
I don't claim that my way is good. :)
Likewise. This has been all very useful for me, and I use it as part of my work with clients and students, butI'm too wise and old to say that any one theory fits all people.
Likewise, many people find CBT - Cognitive Behavioural Therapy useful, and I don't see it as being without value. Just not right for me at a particular stage in my life. I have seen that it might be useful for some people - those who tend to catastrophise, and/or get hysterical over minor issues.
Quote:
Try this: I am not in the habit of having emotional responses, so when I have a real one I control it tightly because I do not know how to control it and fear what it will do if I let it go.
I don't get overwhelmed because I don't understand the emotion.
It may actually be that you actually know your emotions very well, and you have strategies for managing emotions before they become too overwhelming, ie emotion coaching calls for dealing with lower level emotions, before the amygdala hijack sets in and you've got zip chance of managing anything.
Being emotionally intelligent is not so much about the response, but knowing what you feel. It's the difference between saying 'I feel really irratated, so I better walk away before I blow my top' and walking around like a time bomb filled with high levels of emotion, just waiting for a trigger to set you to blow. An increasing number of our population fit into this, hence you get road rage, people taking a king hit on someone because they look at them funny et al. Or drinking/drugging away the emotional pain that they have no way of managing.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
MAL4, deepest apologies for not responding. I thought your post was interesting and a kick-in-the-pants reminder just how different we all are. I assumed that everyone had a problem with runaway emotion; it seems to me that we don't ALL have that problem. I thought some things were particularly interesting, and some things left me feeling very intrigued (my dd would say "nosy")
Quote:Should?
OK, so I am Spock-like. When some events occur that evokes an emotional response (see? Spock.) I do not just go with it. There's a process of: What am I feeling? Really? Why? Is it what I should feel?
Quote:All of those questions are useful. But I wonder how you would judge "should" from "shouldn't"
Is it ok to express that right now? Should I express something else? etc etc. Not that I don't feel things, but I've always been analytical about it all. My head examines my gut, so to speak.
Quote:Intriguing
At some point many years ago I began to adjust this a bit. At the time, I called it "thinking without words." Try to be aware of how your thoughts work. For me, it's pretty much always a narration of words flying about in my head, a somewhat logical process though many words certainly do spring up from the subconscious. But they are words. There is a controlled and conscious method of thought.
Quote:I think it's more about "muscle memory"
I think the "thought without words" came from ice hockey. There are pure moments in the game where a series of action happen without any single word. I can describe the action as: "The other player is going to make a bad pass and if I step up here, now I can get it and catch it in my skates and cut left no deke right and go to the backhand... " etc. But in the moment there's no time for all that. In the moment the decision to deke right is not planned. Something deeper than the conscious mind is driving, and it's connected in to all the limbs and the hands and the feet in the skates. It's just really a cool thing when it happens.
My point: I think that if we take the proper time to train ourselves, to learn that technique of feet and hands, we reach a point where it's best to let go of our conscious control and let our subconscious and our gut and our emotions take control.
More examples
A concert pianist playing Claire de Lune has no logical control of the timing between those opening chords, the changes of tempo throughout. A computer could be set up to tap it out, but it is the pianist's ability to allow their emotion to dictate the timing, and trust their technique to carry through, that makes the music.
I did a dance concert a few weeks ago. It was the first time I really let go of micro-managing dance. I didn't compulsively review every phrase and entrance and exit in a state of angst that I'd screw up. My body just knew what to do. It was much more enjoyable and, I think, expressive performance than I've ever had before.
Yes, that's all the arts,
Quote:
but I think this applies to science as well. With the significant caveat that time must be taken to inform the gut, One's "instincts" can lead to brilliant insights. Question for students: how long must I spend on a treadmill to work off a bag of M&Ms? They've handed in, for a grade, anything from microsecs to millenia. They never take a minute to ask their gut if that makes sense.
My point reworded: A detective has years of experience buried in their subconscious. That thing is powerful. It's the largest part of our brains, I think. When they have a "gut" feeling that the evidence isn't telling the whole story, they should at very least consider the option.
Back to the OP. I think the problem is not so much that people trust to their guts and emotions too much, it's that they're too lazy to educate their guts first, or to assess things when the gut isn'tNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Yes again. For my father, learning to control his emotions was a godsend to him. (To set it straight - he was never violent with me. He internalized his rage and damaged himself. He absolutely had to learn to let all that go.)
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Likewise, many people find CBT - Cognitive Behavioural Therapy useful, and I don't see it as being without value. Just not right for me at a particular stage in my life. I have seen that it might be useful for some people - those who tend to catastrophise, and/or get hysterical over minor issues.
It really is about balance between brain and gut. We all start out on one side or another. As a scientist who wishes she was a dancer, it's a fight for me to let my honest emotions go at the moment I feel them. Someone ruled by emotion has a very different challenge. (I'm watching Black Swan right now. It sooo fits this thread.)
I had a dance teacher say that it is the job of the performer to be vulnerable. We must do too much/too little/whatever and allow the audience to mock or love. That was terrifying. But it's so true.
Quote:Umm... I think it's more about I'm used to being Spock and I have found that other people are kind of freaked out when Spock goes all emotional. I have to take the risk of letting them judge me for the way I feel. (I do not tend to have the proper "socially approved" emotional reactions to many situations.)
It may actually be that you actually know your emotions very well, and you have strategies for managing emotions before they become too overwhelming, ie emotion coaching calls for dealing with lower level emotions, before the amygdala hijack sets in and you've got zip chance of managing anything.
Quote:Ah, yes. This gets back to the OP. I believe that you and I are not common, and most people really are emotion bombs. It explains a lot about many political issues, but I won't expand on that now. Too many tangents to follow up.
Being emotionally intelligent is not so much about the response, but knowing what you feel. It's the difference between saying 'I feel really irratated, so I better walk away before I blow my top' and walking around like a time bomb filled with high levels of emotion, just waiting for a trigger to set you to blow. An increasing number of our population fit into this, hence you get road rage, people taking a king hit on someone because they look at them funny et al. Or drinking/drugging away the emotional pain that they have no way of managing.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Wow. Interesting.
They should be thankful I didn't read Enders Game till my last year of school, or maybe I should, cause I might have considered taking it further than I did - I already knew what real violence was thanks to the abusive asshat I never considered a father, and to *ME* once violence was exchanged whatever it was open season, no-holds-barred, as compared to the usual petty bullshit the rest of the brats considered a "fight", once you take a shot at me I consider that lethal intent and respond accordingly... which is an appropriate response cause anyone who thinks physical violence is unlikely to kill/cripple people needs be reading some EMT reports, you know ?
Dismissing that shit, as school officials tend to, is offensive and harmful as hell, and if yer gonna get in the same amount of trouble for beating them unconscious as you would merely blocking their attacks, better to storm them down and make it really clear what the goddam CONSEQUENCES are gonna be, cause they sure ain't gonna face any from the school in most cases.
I was a bit weirded out watching Higurashi (American Title: When they Cry) and coming across a scene within that went almost EXACTLY the same as that day, just seeing it caused some hard echos and left me with the twitchies for the rest of the day.
Quote:
I'm trying to remember the name of a book a long ago roommate of mine had. I didn't read it, but we discussed the idea: that a good many "insane" people are not really insane, they are only having rational responses to an insane society.
That would be Kurt Vonneguts Welcome to the Monkey House.
And yes, that's one of my core concepts, that our structures and societies are insane, and the mixed messages of ones own basic humanity versus what they're being told to do is the root of a LOT of aberrent behavior, sure - one of the reasons I consider most (but not all) ADHD diagnosis no more valid than Drapetomania or Female Hysteria, same bullshit rationale behind it, and quoted from a Feb 2000 editorial I wrote, this.
"What we seem to be doing here, is medicating our children's natural responses to an environment we have by inaction allowed to become hostile, instead of working to make that environment safe, secure and comfortable to them."
Quote:
I wish I'd had the courage to do some of this. I experienced bullies both my age and older, and I was crushed by them.
Each route comes with it's costs though - what rooks me worst is how we strip them clean of defenses, physical, mental and emotional, cause we don't want them standing up to US, and then throw them to the fucking wolves... that is one reason I am so iron-clad about self defense of all types, even to the point of offense if necessary, cause I know the dynamics of that well enough to know just how well meaning stupidity gets people hurt, on both ends of the debate.
Quote:
The new generation has these kinds of kids in it. I have hope.
Increasing with each one, and now that the Hellcamps seem to have been crushed, save for a fringe element of State or Religious ones (and we're workin on that) one more avenue of destroying these kids before they come to be is gone - it's funny really, cause thereafter we did notice a bump in prosecuted abuse cases of parents doing the *EXACT SAME THINGS* to their kids and facing charges for it, so why was simply outsourcing that kind of abuse any kind of okay, you know ?
Quote:
As for your current works: I do understand your struggles, as I have lived in that kind of Midwest. I suppose I could have chosen to stay and work at it, but that's not for me. It would have only made me and others unhappy. I am better in a blue state gathered up with all the other oddities.
Oh we got oddies a-plenty round here, hell we've had some real..erm, "winners" as residents here and there, including one about as far gone as PN seems to
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Just a little bit more threadjacking, then I'll quit.
Geezer, where did I say we could, or should 'ALL just ...'? Nothing happens in this society with us 'ALL just ...'' A lot of times a FEW just ..., sometimes it's the MAJORITY just ..., but we don't 'ALL just ...'.
So, please READ my post again. REALLY READ ***MY WORDS***, and stop arguing with the voices in your head. You'll find comprehension goes so much better if you do.
Where did I say you did?
I said I've seen people here say that.
Now why do you think it applies to you?
And why can't you have a discussion without insulting everyone who disagrees with you? Kind'a hard to get people to take you seriously when you do that.
"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I started writing this up last night, but was falling asleep so I saved till I was free today.
Quote:I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out why I don't have that runaway emotion that is supposed to happen in "regular" people. No answers. I can't just blame my upbringing. My sister lived in the same house and she's an emotion bomb.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
MAL4, deepest apologies for not responding. I thought your post was interesting and a kick-in-the-pants reminder just how different we all are. I assumed that everyone had a problem with runaway emotion; it seems to me that we don't ALL have that problem. I thought some things were particularly interesting, and some things left me feeling very intrigued (my dd would say "nosy")
Quote:Quote:All of those questions are useful. But I wonder how you would judge "should" from "shouldn't"
OK, so I am Spock-like.... Is it what I should feel?
Ha! For me it has to do with what will be accepted by those surrounding me and what might be -- oh dear god -- uncomfortable to them. Or might not do me any good in the long run.
OK, I said I can't blame my family, but certainly there is an interaction of nature and nurture. I am naturally one who analyzes, and my analysis told me to keep a tight rein so things would go smooth. Other people wouldn't prefer smoothness, I guess, so they wouldn't have developed as I did.
Quote:Yes indeed. That's the "technique". But the emotional expression can't happen without a subconscious connection between emotion and muscle memory. There are deep parts of the brain that control the muscles, and they can't function properly if the "thinking" is always in the way.
I think it's more about "muscle memory"
I do think there is a "muscle memory" of sorts in the brain. Our deepest knowledge is mapped out in our subconscious. (I like to think this is why we sleep so much: our daily experiences are being remapped from RAM conscious memory to ROM deep memory. When you wake up suddenly -- bus error! -- and remember your dream, you've seen into your subconscious.) Brilliance and insight require that we tap into those deep neural pathways, which means letting go of conscious control from time to time.
And you should know I am not a neural scientist and I actually know nothing about the brain except that I have one and this seems to be how mine works.
Quote:With experience, you get a feeling for what is right and what isn't. Remember when the Mars lander crashed in the 90s because someone forgot to check units?
So, going all Spock-like for a bit myself, it's easier for me to see about training muscle memory, but I find it hard to see how one trains one's gut.
Hey - people working on that have to have developed an intuition about the landing parameters, and you get an idea of the values you expect in m/s versus ft/s. The info was in those brains, but I'm guessing they trusted to the output of their code without listening to their instincts.
Just like my students and the M&M problem. 1000s of years to burn off a bag of M&Ms? Really? They just don't take a minute to *think*.
Quote:Yes, that is true. That is where one must never disconnect the brain and the heart from the gut. Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results, right? There must be some way of assessing the gut and being open to adjusting it.
There are so many parts, and so many possible lessons, both useful and dysfunctional.
Quote:Absolutely. You need trusted people to tell you that it is or is not working. You need to be open to the criticism and honest self-assessment.
For example, just feeding raw experience into the gut may reinforce initial prejudices and stereotypes. Feeling unlovable, one may act in unlovable ways
This is challenging. I hate watching myself dance on video. *shudder*
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Our deepest knowledge is mapped out in our subconscious.
...This is where I begin to disagree, unfortunately. I can buy everything about emotional intelligence versus logical intelligence, to a degree, and will even admit it's best to not rely too much on one or the other.
But the unconscious is so poorly understood despite the insistence of psychology that it exists and all the research they do, that I have my doubts that it DOES.
What possible evolutionary advantage is there to have some sort of secret hidden knowledge that we can't tap into as necessary? What would be the purpose of such a division of functions?
What people call the unconscious I suspect is really just the animalistic parts of the limbic system, meaning that this "unconscious" mind is in fact always working and is also fully integrated with our conscious working minds. It's just... Not a very SMART system, not compared to the higher brain functions like memory and cognitive processing. But it can be quiet, passive, automatic, or loud, depending on the circumstances. Reflexes can be trained, and the muscles do a surprising bit more "thinking" than we have realized in the past. But this isn't hidden away from our thinking anymore than fear and anger are hidden.
You'd think that with our neurological scans and actual empirical data, we could move past the flawed and imperfect ideas of Freud, instead of assuming that he is right that this something he said is there and exists when he had no instruments to FIND it and was probably talkin' out his ass (as per usual).
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Mal said 'subconcious' which I believe to be different to 'unconcious'. I think she meant it simply to mean the collection of everything we have seen and learned and experienced, but may not be at the forefront of ones mind. And not so much of the Freudian 'unconcious' which underpins all that we do.
I don't know what you call it, or really how it works within the brain, but I sometimes think of it as the enormous compactus, everything filed away. Sometimes memories are easily accessable, with a light flick of the finger and sometimes the drawer is wedged shut, or sometimes you've forgotten that the drawer exists. In REM sleep, drawers are opened randomly and because we are complusive meaning makers, we create stories from the open contents. I can't tell you how, or back anything up with anything remotely scientific (perhaps I don't care to look too hard) but I have found both healing and solutions in dreams.
I like the concept that we have different kinds of memory, including muscle and emotional memory. That's why some alzheimer sufferers may not be able to recognise their closest loved ones, but can play complex pieces on the piano.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
They should be thankful I didn't read Enders Game till my last year of school,
OK, are you as hyped about the movie as I am? I wasn't at first, but caught the preview in the theater last weekend and I gotta say - this might be entertaining. I need to read the book again before I see it though. It's been a while.
Very telling clip. That's what bullying all about, right? To terrorize a person but make it "fun" in order to make them completely helpless. As soon as the terrorized strikes back, the bully sez "Oh jeez, where's your sense of humor?" I can't say I generally condone beating someone with a chair, but I certainly understand wanting to. I find I'm gotten better at cutting with words when I need to, and that can be enough.
Of course, I don't live in a world where any more than words is needed. I do hope it stays that way.
Quote:Yep. I should read it. I like him, except a newer one that was just depressing.
That would be Kurt Vonneguts Welcome to the Monkey House.
Society is certainly insane. Just look at Steubenville. Morons in that town are still defending the coach, who still has his job. How is any young woman with self-respect supposed to grow up "sane" in a place like that? Or young man, for that matter.
Quote:
.
Oh we got oddies a-plenty round here, hell we've had some real..erm, "winners" as residents here and there,
Ueah, I guess I mean oddities in less of a strong way. I'm actually pretty functional and sane, but if I was living in the midwestern suburb where I grew up I'd be a complete freak, and very unhappy. In places like NYC there are lots of others who want nothing to do with the suburban house, kids in little league, the job ladder, etc etc. And we're OK.
I do love that you're in an area without racism. I can't claim that of where I am, though here it's more of a class-ism.
Quote:Replying to this would be a long off topic hijack, so all I'm gonna say is Amen Brother!
But no, everyone and anyone seems hell bent on trying to MAKE everyone else act, live and think like THEY do... OR ELSE - and that latter part is why I don't get on with folks who mean the best, but don't realize they're pouring oil on a slope already slippery enough.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:Quote:
Our deepest knowledge is mapped out in our subconscious.
...This is where I begin to disagree, unfortunately. I can buy everything about emotional intelligence versus logical intelligence, to a degree, and will even admit it's best to not rely too much on one or the other.
But the unconscious is so poorly understood despite the insistence of psychology that it exists and all the research they do, that I have my doubts that it DOES.
I tried to explain what I mean by "subconscious" in my long long post up above, and I'll try not to get repetitive, but please be aware that I may mean something different than the officially accepted medical/psychological term. But I do need to clarify, because I think you are misunderstanding.
There are two general ways I approach the mental control of my life. Say I want to look behind me as a I walk:
Conscious control: Step with my left foot forward, step with right foot turned in a little, step my left foot backwards so I am now facing the other way, and the next step is right foot bakcwards.
Subconscious control: I turn my head to look back and my feet do whatever they need to do to make that work.
Because there are trained patterns in the "subconscious" parts of my brain, I can use approach 2 without falling over. I am completely unaware of what my feet do, but it happens anyway.
It is not secret, hidden knowledge. But using option 2 is going to be a much smoother, more graceful, and more effortless way of carrying out the task. I don't need to control my feet. I can choose to, and if I'm learning complex new steps I definitely need to, but I can also trust the out-of-conscious control parts of my brain to do this for me.
It is exactly the same with a concert pianist. When they are first learning that have to consciously map out each chord. After a while, they go through the phrase without telling each finger where to go. I have experienced this playing cello, and skating, and even dancing.
If you haven't experienced this, I don't think anything I say is going to explain it to you. I very much recommend that you think about taking up a hobby where you might get to this kind of state of functioning. It takes work, but it's extremely fulfilling.
Quote:Because the conscious brain can't do everything. What if you had to remind yourself to breathe or you'd die? How much could you do if you were constantly regulating your own heartbeat?
What possible evolutionary advantage is there to have some sort of secret hidden knowledge that we can't tap into as necessary? What would be the purpose of such a division of functions?
Regarding the rest of your post, I didn't say it was hidden, or certainly that was not my intention. But I hold that the subconscious is capable of things that the conscious is not. ie: listen to Rachmonioff's Piano Concerto #2 while looking at the sheet music and tell me that the conscious mind could *ever* do that.
Quote:Oh dear. You are assigning all kinds of stuff to me that I never said or even suggested. I plainly stated that my ideas are based on my experiences. Please reply to that rather than getting upset over what I never said.
You'd think that with our neurological scans and actual empirical data, we could move past the flawed and imperfect ideas of Freud, instead of assuming that he is right that this something he said is there and exists when he had no instruments to FIND it and was probably talkin' out his ass (as per usual).
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Because the conscious brain can't do everything. What if you had to remind yourself to breathe or you'd die? How much could you do if you were constantly regulating your own heartbeat?
Yes, I did mention automatic processes in my post above, but I hardly consider those to be any sort of input or source for knowledge.
But then I don't believe meditation is all that useful, and meditation is from what I understand a way of breathing that people attribute all kinds of benefits to.
It really does sound like you're describing exactly the kind of thing I'm complaining about, this idea that there's some part of our brain where our dreams come from that "knows" things or "learns" things. And then a hop skip from that is the possibility that our dreams mean something.
And, as I said, I disagree that any such thing exists, in much the same way that I doubt our thoughts and emotions originate from the heart muscles the way some schools of thought used to claim. However, I perhaps was and am coming across more rude than I intended, and I probably am not going to get anywhere arguing with you. Plus I can remember having similar conversations on this board with people who believe strongly in the concept of a place where we store or process thoughts or emotions separate from our surface thoughts and emotions, and people got pretty angry about my objections otherwise.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:Quote:
Because the conscious brain can't do everything. What if you had to remind yourself to breathe or you'd die? How much could you do if you were constantly regulating your own heartbeat?
Yes, I did mention automatic processes in my post above, but I hardly consider those to be any sort of input or source for knowledge.
But then I don't believe meditation is all that useful, and meditation is from what I understand a way of breathing that people attribute all kinds of benefits to.
It really does sound like you're describing exactly the kind of thing I'm complaining about, this idea that there's some part of our brain where our dreams come from that "knows" things or "learns" things. And then a hop skip from that is the possibility that our dreams mean something.
And, as I said, I disagree that any such thing exists, in much the same way that I doubt our thoughts and emotions originate from the heart muscles the way some schools of thought used to claim. However, I perhaps was and am coming across more rude than I intended, and I probably am not going to get anywhere arguing with you. Plus I can remember having similar conversations on this board with people who believe strongly in the concept of a place where we store or process thoughts or emotions separate from our surface thoughts and emotions, and people got pretty angry about my objections otherwise.
And you think you keep breathing how?
And you think you can walk without thinking about it how?
And you think a pianist can play all those notes how?
Did you ever walk away from a hard problem, go do something else, and then suddenly have an insight as to how to solve it? I have. Lots of times. That's all I'm saying.
See, the rudeness is not about tone, it's about extending what I'm saying to all kinds of stuff I'm not. It's just not very polite of you.
It does, however, give me another example that I don't think you'll like. I bet someone tried to shovel some Freudian shit at you at some point, which understandably makes you sensitive to a discussion that appears to you to be similar. Because of what's stored in your brain, you can only see that funky Freudian stuff, no matter that it is not what I've said. Your subconscious bias is not allowing you to grok what I'm saying purely for what it is. Your programming filters my words.
It has happened between us more than once. It's all right. I get it. And I agree - no point in us continuing. Especially since you keep skipping right past all the examples I'm giving you as if they were not given.
Your filter is strong, Obiwan, too strong for us mere mortals to pierce.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
...
-_-
No. No one tried to shovel freudian shit at me. I am not REPRESSING some traumatic experience from my past behind a filter.
This is why I don't like these ideas. Perhaps YOU have one of these unconscious/subconscious DEALIES, I wouldn't know. I do NOT. I am a shallow, dull, frivolous person who cares about only unimportant things and all my emotions bubble on the surface. I lack any kind of depth like you describe. I LACK FILTERS.
In short I understand exactly what you are talking about, and I DISAGREE. I won't say anything else.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
...
-_-
No. No one tried to shovel freudian shit at me.
This is why I don't like these ideas. Perhaps YOU have one of these unconscious/subconscious DEALIES, I wouldn't know. I do NOT. I am a shallow, dull, frivolous person who cares about only unimportant things and all my emotions bubble on the surface. I lack any kind of depth like you describe.
I won't say anything else.
Hunh. Then why can't you read my posts for what they say? You're the one who brought up Freud. I never went anywhere close to there.
You do have a filter. I can't pretend to know why, but it's certainly there.
ETA: please note that sig and I are very different thinkers/emoters. but we discuss it. On the other hand, with you, my description of the way my brain works is some kind of affront. I don't mean my last post, which yes I did try to apply my way of thinking to you, but your reaction to my previous was by your admission rather rude. You pretty much called everything I said bullshit, without addressing any actual point that I made.
So why this aggression? Where does it come from? You should be able to explain, since your brain acts completely in the a conscious way. So what exactly did I say in my previous posts about the way *my* brain works that was personally insulting to you?
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Yes, I did mention automatic processes in my post above, but I hardly consider those to be any sort of input or source for knowledge.
But then I don't believe meditation is all that useful, and meditation is from what I understand a way of breathing that people attribute all kinds of benefits to.
It really does sound like you're describing exactly the kind of thing I'm complaining about, this idea that there's some part of our brain where our dreams come from that "knows" things or "learns" things. And then a hop skip from that is the possibility that our dreams mean something.
And, as I said, I disagree that any such thing exists, in much the same way that I doubt our thoughts and emotions originate from the heart muscles the way some schools of thought used to claim. However, I perhaps was and am coming across more rude than I intended, and I probably am not going to get anywhere arguing with you. Plus I can remember having similar conversations on this board with people who believe strongly in the concept of a place where we store or process thoughts or emotions separate from our surface thoughts and emotions, and people got pretty angry about my objections otherwise.
yes, we have had similar conversations before, I remember. But perhaps its more the language that you object to rather than the ideas.
I wonder if you would agree with any of the following:
Not all memories are easily accessable
We have ways of storing oads more information than we actually ackowledge
Dreams can be a way of processing experiences and emotions
Our brains function in highly complex ways and scientists are still trying to work out how they do what they do
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
DOuble post. Don't know why that happens
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Yes, I did mention automatic processes in my post above, but I hardly consider those to be any sort of input or source for knowledge.
But then I don't believe meditation is all that useful, and meditation is from what I understand a way of breathing that people attribute all kinds of benefits to.
It really does sound like you're describing exactly the kind of thing I'm complaining about, this idea that there's some part of our brain where our dreams come from that "knows" things or "learns" things. And then a hop skip from that is the possibility that our dreams mean something.
And, as I said, I disagree that any such thing exists, in much the same way that I doubt our thoughts and emotions originate from the heart muscles the way some schools of thought used to claim. However, I perhaps was and am coming across more rude than I intended, and I probably am not going to get anywhere arguing with you. Plus I can remember having similar conversations on this board with people who believe strongly in the concept of a place where we store or process thoughts or emotions separate from our surface thoughts and emotions, and people got pretty angry about my objections otherwise.
yes, we have had similar conversations before, I remember. But perhaps its more the language that you object to rather than the ideas.
I wonder if you would agree with any of the following:
Not all memories are easily accessable
We have ways of storing oads more information than we actually ackowledge
Dreams can be a way of processing experiences and emotions
Our brains function in highly complex ways and scientists are still trying to work out how they do what they do
I only agree with the last one.
You'd have to explain criteria or ways in which you can measure the other stuff for me to concede the science here.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
So what exactly did I say in my previous posts about the way *my* brain works that was personally insulting to you?
If I said, it would insult YOU. A self-defeating proposition.
If you truly want to know, the reason I am so contemptuous is because I think none of this is scientific. There are no measurements that can be made about dreams or unconscious knowledge.
I also found your insinuation that "repressed memories" and "filters" are responsible for my disagreement with you incredibly condescending.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Yes, I did mention automatic processes in my post above, but I hardly consider those to be any sort of input or source for knowledge.
But then I don't believe meditation is all that useful, and meditation is from what I understand a way of breathing that people attribute all kinds of benefits to.
It really does sound like you're describing exactly the kind of thing I'm complaining about, this idea that there's some part of our brain where our dreams come from that "knows" things or "learns" things. And then a hop skip from that is the possibility that our dreams mean something.
And, as I said, I disagree that any such thing exists, in much the same way that I doubt our thoughts and emotions originate from the heart muscles the way some schools of thought used to claim. However, I perhaps was and am coming across more rude than I intended, and I probably am not going to get anywhere arguing with you. Plus I can remember having similar conversations on this board with people who believe strongly in the concept of a place where we store or process thoughts or emotions separate from our surface thoughts and emotions, and people got pretty angry about my objections otherwise.
yes, we have had similar conversations before, I remember. But perhaps its more the language that you object to rather than the ideas.
I wonder if you would agree with any of the following:
Not all memories are easily accessable
We have ways of storing oads more information than we actually ackowledge
Dreams can be a way of processing experiences and emotions
Our brains function in highly complex ways and scientists are still trying to work out how they do what they do
I only agree with the last one.
You'd have to explain criteria or ways in which you can measure the other stuff for me to concede the science here.
I think you'd be hard pushed to find any evidence for what you are claiming, and more evidence for what I am. I have never read anywhere any scientist, neuro or otherwise who make the claims you do. I suspect you are basing what you say on how you interpret what is happening for you, and I aint got no arguments for that.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
What Does Sleep Do For Us?
Although scientists are still trying to learn exactly why people need sleep, animal studies show that sleep is necessary for survival. For example, while rats normally live for two to three years, those deprived of REM sleep survive only about 5 weeks on average, and rats deprived of all sleep stages live only about 3 weeks. Sleep-deprived rats also develop abnormally low body temperatures and sores on their tail and paws. The sores may develop because the rats' immune systems become impaired. Some studies suggest that sleep deprivation affects the immune system in detrimental ways.
Sleep appears necessary for our nervous systems to work properly. Too little sleep leaves us drowsy and unable to concentrate the next day. It also leads to impaired memory and physical performance and reduced ability to carry out math calculations. If sleep deprivation continues, hallucinations and mood swings may develop. Some experts believe sleep gives neurons used while we are awake a chance to shut down and repair themselves. Without sleep, neurons may become so depleted in energy or so polluted with byproducts of normal cellular activities that they begin to malfunction. Sleep also may give the brain a chance to exercise important neuronal connections that might otherwise deteriorate from lack of activity.
Deep sleep coincides with the release of growth hormone in children and young adults. Many of the body's cells also show increased production and reduced breakdown of proteins during deep sleep. Since proteins are the building blocks needed for cell growth and for repair of damage from factors like stress and ultraviolet rays, deep sleep may truly be "beauty sleep." Activity in parts of the brain that control emotions, decision-making processes, and social interactions is drastically reduced during deep sleep, suggesting that this type of sleep may help people maintain optimal emotional and social functioning while they are awake. A study in rats also showed that certain nerve-signaling patterns which the rats generated during the day were repeated during deep sleep. This pattern repetition may help encode memories and improve learning.
Return to Index
Dreaming and REM Sleep
We typically spend more than 2 hours each night dreaming. Scientists do not know much about how or why we dream. Sigmund Freud, who greatly influenced the field of psychology, believed dreaming was a "safety valve" for unconscious desires. Only after 1953, when researchers first described REM in sleeping infants, did scientists begin to carefully study sleep and dreaming. They soon realized that the strange, illogical experiences we call dreams almost always occur during REM sleep. While most mammals and birds show signs of REM sleep, reptiles and other cold-blooded animals do not.
REM sleep begins with signals from an area at the base of the brain called the pons (see figure 2 ). These signals travel to a brain region called the thalamus, which relays them to the cerebral cortex – the outer layer of the brain that is responsible for learning, thinking, and organizing information. The pons also sends signals that shut off neurons in the spinal cord, causing temporary paralysis of the limb muscles. If something interferes with this paralysis, people will begin to physically "act out" their dreams – a rare, dangerous problem called REM sleep behavior disorder. A person dreaming about a ball game, for example, may run headlong into furniture or blindly strike someone sleeping nearby while trying to catch a ball in the dream.
REM sleep stimulates the brain regions used in learning. This may be important for normal brain development during infancy, which would explain why infants spend much more time in REM sleep than adults (see Sleep: A Dynamic Activity ). Like deep sleep, REM sleep is associated with increased production of proteins. One study found that REM sleep affects learning of certain mental skills. People taught a skill and then deprived of non-REM sleep could recall what
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"But the unconscious is so poorly understood despite the insistence of psychology that it exists and all the research they do, that I have my doubts that it DOES."
There all many parallel connections in the brain that are now just being uncovered that could be called the unconscious. For example: what happens when you've caught a glimpse of something that would have you terrified. Light goes into the eye, hits the retina, goes to the back of the brain where its salient properties are sifted out layer by layer. On one pathway the brain re-assembles the image and it goes to the conscious part of the brain where it's connected up with memories and abstract thinking, and we get that moment of recognition - oh, someone left a dirty piece of rope on the ground. But the lower level visual processing directly flashes very select salient features to the amygdala even before that - long! narrow! curvy! on the ground! - where it's connected up with memories of events that generated a lot of fear in the past - SNAKE!!! Adrenaline surges even before we've had the chance to understand what we're seeing.
My point is that's it's not just physical movement that could be considered the unconscious. Even our perceptions fall into that category.
If you have the time you might be interested in this: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/06/30/080630fa_fact_gawande It's about a woman who had such a demanding, persistent itch that she scratched through her skull into her brain. She did this despite the fact that the sensory nerves in the area had been killed. So where did the itch come from? The author makes a pretty good case that the vast majority of our perception is software, not hardware. That the software and hardware both operate underneath the realm of the conscious (where there is no "I" involved) puts them in the category of the unconscious, IMO.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I provided my own evidence for my ideas. You have yet to address any of those, you only rail against other ideologies/theories that have nothing to do with my posts.
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
If you truly want to know, the reason I am so contemptuous is because I think none of this is scientific. There are no measurements that can be made about dreams or unconscious knowledge.
Why?
Quote:
I also found your insinuation that "repressed memories" and "filters" are responsible for my disagreement with you incredibly condescending.
I said nothing about repressed memories. Why do you bring that up? It was never mentioned before you brought it up.
As for filters, you continue to post replies that are not replies to my posts. That is a filter. I did not mention Freud (because I think he's a hack) and yet your replies center on him. This is a filter.
Why?
You don't need to explain to me. I have no right to know.
But I certainly will not accept the derision you're throwing at me. Your own filter created this drama, not anything I said, especially since I said what I did about my own brain. I can post freely about how my own thoughts work, and if you get your back up about that, it's all happening on your side.
Which is to say: I still want nothing but the best for you, Byte. My interest in this interaction with you, as seems to happen a lot, lies in trying to find out why you made my post into an attack on you.
I want you to not go through this.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
You have yet to address any of those, you only rail against other ideologies/theories that have nothing to do with my posts.
They have everything to do with them. Everything I've heard you say has confirmed what I thought you're talking about.
Quote:
I said nothing about repressed memories. Why do you bring that up? It was never mentioned before you brought it up.
Not directly. But what else would these "filters" you keep talking about be? You basically said exactly this to me, that I was drawing on previous experiences, having a bad reaction to someone pulling out freud psychoanalysis on me. Oh POOR ME. Except no.
And Magons, there's a lot more criticism against the idea of the unconscious than you're realizing. Psychologists still like it though so they do experiments about it. But I find a lot of their experiments don't really met the standards of vigour.
Also, the linked discovery article has exactly the kind of wishy washy poorly supported speculation about dreams that I can't stand.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
It's about a woman who had such a demanding, persistent itch that she scratched through her skull into her brain.
OK, that guarantees I won't read the article.
Can I share a story that is only very tangentially related? I've been dying to tell anyone about this.
Two nights ago I was sitting on my sofa doing my usual video watching/internet surfing when it occurred to me that I'd been hearing this annoying sound. I could hear it over the internet music and the window air conditioner, but barely. It prob took hours to get to me. But eventually I had to acknowledge that this sound was... Bothering. Me.
It came from the kitchen. Kind of crugggg. cruggg. cruggg. Maybe the seal on the freezer was leaking? No. Maybe some bug was doing shit in the walls? I brought in a chair and put my ears in many locations.
crugggg. cruggg. cruggg.
Freaked me out. It was coming from the top of my fridge. I store big bowls there, and some little plastic containers, and also many half bulbs of garlic, since I buy a new one every time I need it and forget to throw the old ones out.
crugggg. cruggg. cruggg.
I put on one of those cleaning rubber gloves and got a plastic bag, because something on top of the fridge ain't right and I don't want it touching me. One by one I move things off. Still that sound goes on.
crugggg. cruggg. cruggg.
I reach a point when one bulb of garlic is left. I move an ear around it. Oh yeah, the sound is there. I start thinking the some creature has planted its young in there, and a million hatchlings are eating their way out right now. Of course, it's going to be spiders. I fucking hate spiders. Like really. (And this is what made me think of this: kiki's post reminded me of how my fear of spiders surpasses my rational brain whenever a spider interaction is possible. The signal is reacted by my spine before it reaches my brain, and yes, there is scientific rational for this. ) I pictured crowds of baby horror spiders pouring from that garlic.
crugggg. cruggg. cruggg.
I couldn't deal with the plastic bag and its imperfect seal, so I grabbed a little plastic cup and clamped it over the garlic bulb. Immediately, twisted black legs reached out...
It was an ant. A fucking ant. One of those really big scary black ants, but it had been hanging out in my garlic crunching away all evening. LOUD crunching.
If there's a moral to the story, it's this: in the early summer when the rains move in, put your damned garlic in the fridge.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Happy ant!
I like bugs and spiders. :) They're cute. I give the bees drinks at the community garden, they like to suck the water out of the black landscape fabric when it's 90+ degrees out.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Mal, are you the Bionic Woman?
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:Quote:
You have yet to address any of those, you only rail against other ideologies/theories that have nothing to do with my posts.
They have everything to do with them. Everything I've heard you say has confirmed what I thought you're talking about.
Please note the words you use: "I've heard..."
You do not hear what I'm saying. You hear what comes through your filter. Did you grok what I said about concert pianists? Did you try to understand what I meant by that (given that none of us, as far as I know, are concert pianists)?
Quote:Quote:
I said nothing about repressed memories. Why do you bring that up? It was never mentioned before you brought it up.
Not directly. But what else would these "filters" you keep talking about be? You basically said exactly this to me, that I was drawing on previous experiences, having a bad reaction to someone pulling out freud psychoanalysis on me. Oh POOR ME. Except no.
"Not directly," you say. Think about that. The "direct" connection is something you made. My posts about filters came after YOU brought up Freud. And your mention of repressed memories came after that, at no prompting from me.
So the connection could very possible be something on your end, yes? Since it all initiated with you?
I do wonder why you took it there. Why, I ask again, was your first response to me so defensive? Could you point out the exact phrases that made you turn to Freud?
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I mentioned freud, btw - to distinguish between the ideas of 'unconcious' to which Byte objects , and 'subconscious' to which Mal referred.
In doing so, I have opened a deep fissure of discontent.
(That last line is best read with a german accent)
edit - Actually looking back, it was Byte....
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I play the piano. Since I was seven. It's not "unconscious." It seems effortless, it seems like I'm not thinking about it. But I am. It's trained responses and reading ahead, but all of it takes place within the standard speed of response the brain can manage, of about 0.3 seconds.
Also my knees shake like a leaf when I play because it's not really that fun. :/ And I have terrible counting timing.
however now imagining someone at the keyboard while asleep. It is an entertaining performance after all.
but this idea that my "unconscious" somehow informs how I play the piano when it doesn't exist, is like saying that when I predict something that's going to happen and everyone looks at me weird when it happens, that somehow I was drawing from "unconscious" knowledge like ESP and psychic ability. No. HELL No. It's all logic and conscious thought.
I am aware of EVERYTHING. It's actually incredibly annoying. I feel every stutter in my heart, to the point where I've had myself checked out for a-fib and I probably do have some sort of psychosomatic texidor's twinge.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Mal4Prez brought it up, she just didn't use the terminology to describe what she was accusing me of.
But that's what it is. That's what it is exactly. It's Freud.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Byte, seriously, stop hijacking threads so that its all about you. It's tiresome. This thread is a discussion around emotions and rational thought and some sharing of ideas around what it all might mean. while I am interested in what you have to say, even though I disagree with your views, I dont want to enter into another conversation about how your perceive yourself to be shallow, bad, evil, or any negative attribute that you insist on giving yourself. Nor another conversation about how someone has offended you.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
OK, are you as hyped about the movie as I am? I wasn't at first, but caught the preview in the theater last weekend and I gotta say - this might be entertaining. I need to read the book again before I see it though. It's been a while.
Not really - Lionsgate has a rep for doing a good job on a budget and staying true to the source material, it's just that I consider the source material kind of apalling.
There is also the minor nitpick of this book being so radically different from EVERY SINGLE THING CARD EVER WROTE, so much so, given all his other work tends to certain themes and styles, that I have since reading the rest of the trilogy firmly believed he did not write it, when a guy writes fifty and more books which all read very much the same, and has one that is completely radically different than them in every possible way, one has to wonder - it'd be like Stephen King suddenly writing in the terse, brutal style of Andrew Vachss, it's just *not* credible to be the same authors work.
Quote:
Very telling clip. That's what bullying all about, right? To terrorize a person but make it "fun" in order to make them completely helpless. As soon as the terrorized strikes back, the bully sez "Oh jeez, where's your sense of humor?" I can't say I generally condone beating someone with a chair, but I certainly understand wanting to. I find I'm gotten better at cutting with words when I need to, and that can be enough.
Well, while I don't believe in dehumanizing people, I do believe it *IS* possible for a person to surrender their own humanity, whether it be to an ideological agenda or their own prejudices and hatreds, and once they cross that line, I feel no obligation to consider them human, or people - I feel no more emotion inflicting violence upon them than I would about pulling a weed out of a garden, which is also part and parcel of my theological beliefs which suggest that violence should always be dispassionate... something admittedly I don't always live up to.
It's like the old not-funny "joke" about asking a combat sniper what he feels when he shoots people, and he says "recoil" - the burning exception were hellcamp stooges, former victims turned abusers for their own chance at holding the whip... yes I KNOW they're victims in a way too, but the choice they made was something I had utterly no sympathy for and while I usually keep a lock on it I do have a nasty sadistic streak, I just won't cut it loose in front of anyone innocent.
Quote:
Society is certainly insane. Just look at Steubenville. Morons in that town are still defending the coach, who still has his job. How is any young woman with self-respect supposed to grow up "sane" in a place like that? Or young man, for that matter.
I highly, highly reccommend the book AFTERSHOCK, if you can gut through reading it, the book itself is kind of a rabbithole of that same type.
http://www.amazon.com/Aftershock-A-Thriller-Andrew-Vachss/dp/030790774
0
What bothers me about it, this book, Stubenville, the Hellcamps... is that yes, once out in the open there are better ways, but sometimes, hell, too many times, NOTHING LESS THAN BRUTAL VIOLENCE WILL GET IT THERE... this is something Justin has a tendancy to forget, is that appalling that it was, without that factor, the situation would never, ever, ever have come to place where gentler means could even be applied, and if you let this shit slip BACK under the rock by being unwilling to dive into the gutter, wrap an angry fist around its neck and haul it back out, then the cycle will begin all over again and you have accomplished nothing.
I see this on a macro scale with our abusive intel agencies, every time they look contrite and promise never to do it again, they're ALREADY doing it again even before they leave the fucking room, and until some real awfulness gets inflicted addressing the matter is futile - I earnestly feel that swinging Clapper from a ro
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Byte, seriously, stop hijacking threads so that its all about you. It's tiresome. This thread is a discussion around emotions and rational thought and some sharing of ideas around what it all might mean. while I am interested in what you have to say, even though I disagree with your views, I dont want to enter into another conversation about how your perceive yourself to be shallow, bad, evil, or any negative attribute that you insist on giving yourself. Nor another conversation about how someone has offended you.
...That was a cheap shot.
Show me were I've gotten away from the original topic of this thread. It has all been about my disagreement with your opinions on whether the unconscious exists. One time - ONE TIME I said that I must be shallow because I lack the experiences you all describe, but that was again part of my ARGUMENT here.
And then Mal4Prez asked me to address her specific point about concert pianists, and I told her that I've played the piano for 21 years. Oh yes, it's all about ME, isn't it.
I knew getting involved with this conversation was a bad idea. I can't be civil about this, and it leads to further incivility.
Plus I'm held to different standards than the rest of you, to the point where I can't say ANYTHING without being accused of hijacking a thread. And yet while I'm still attempting to discuss a point, we let flamewars continue unabated, oh I'm totally in that SAME category, oh THOSE aren't hijacking threads. It leads me to wonder why I even BOTHER.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Byte, do you disagree that there are things that happen in the brain without a person's awareness and purposeful direction (that have no "I" involved)?
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Mal4Prez brought it up, she just didn't use the terminology to describe what she was accusing me of.
But that's what it is. That's what it is exactly. It's Freud.
No Byte, it's not. no matter that you keep insisting that you know what I am thinking and saying better than I do, you do not. You are not omniscient. YOu are filtering.
Did I ever mention playing the piano asleep? No. You did.
The reason my argument seems so wrong to you is that YOU are making up meanings that have nothing to do with what I'm saying. It really would be nice made some attempt to understand what I am actually saying. Perhaps I expect too much.
OK, our brains seem to work quite differently. This is fine by my book. I am open to exploring that. This conversation could go: "Oh, you think like that? You play music like that? Weird I don't at all! I do this..." Rather, you've come into all confrontational: "What you're saying is really THIS (and don't try to tell me that I'm not omniscient and I don't know EXACTLY what you're thinking) and it's all bullshit and you're wrong!"
Do you realize that you are flat out telling me that I'm wrong about how my brain works because yours doesn't do that? Do you realize that you are doing exactly what you seem upset with me for doing?
That's just very nice Byte. Which I suppose you won't mind, because you do often seem out to prove how not nice you are. OK. You did it this time.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Plus I'm held to different standards than the rest of you, to the point where I can't say ANYTHING without being accused of hijacking a thread.
Bullshit Byte. Enter a discussion as an attacker and you will be treated as one. Look back at your first post to me. You flat out told me I was wrong, and you weren't nice about it.
And yes, you did make it all about YOU.
You say you're all into logic. So remove the emotion, or come back to this when the emotion is past because you do seem quite emotional now. If there is a pattern to the way people react to you, there must be a logical reason. Either there's some big secret cabal passing notes planning this, or it's something YOU are doing to invite the response.
Which makes more sense?
And, conveniently, which case gives you direct control over changing things?
OK, this has indeed become a hijack, partly my fault. I will go back up the thread and see where it can be picked up.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
My first post to you was about how sorry I was that I didn't notice your first post in the thread.
My first DISAGREEMENT with you, I was rude. You all do give as good as you get though. And considering that I felt provoked since Sig's original post, and you all KNOW it, but managed to reign it in for this long, who really is attacking WHO here?
Quote:
Either there's some big secret cabal passing notes planning this
This one is making more sense all the time, as it turns out.
I'll let you continue your conversation in peace, without my disruptions, as I had attempted to do before we all started insulting each other.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Either there's some big secret cabal passing notes planning this ...
This one is making more sense all the time, as it turns out.
Just wondering - where is your evidence? I personally haven't seen any.
To get back to the thread ... I do have to say, your posts regarding 'our truest selves' aren't logically consistent as applied to you. On the one hand you say you were 'born mean'. On the other hand you say that your mind is entirely under your conscious control (there being no unconscious influencing our - as a species - actions). I don't think it can be both. Because if you were 'born mean' - and continue to be mean - then there's an influence not under your control.
But I'm curious about your 'born mean' state. I get really mean when I'm in a lot of pain, loose too much sleep (and so loose my perspective and psychological resilience), am ill (energy reserves go too far down to cope), or am under serious threat, or am feeling overwhelmed by too many demands with no end in sight. All of these relate to a situation where I can't be securely comfortable, and therefore somewhat removed from stress. I don't know what the hormonal/ neurochemical profiles of those states are (though I've read it's too much epinephrine, not enough norepinephrine), but it feels like cold rage. Perhaps you were born with that neurochemical profile, which predisposes you to interact with your environment in a particular way.
Anyway, to relate this to 'our truest selves' - I think we are all born with a particular balance of hormonal/ neurochemical responses predominant. Not all of these inborn states are either comfortable, or helpful in terms of survival. (BTW, I also think in the 'wild state' these randomly-generated unhelpful profiles would lead to death by accident.)
However, due to our ability to be modulated by teaching and experience, most of us can zero-in on a somewhat different set of responses. For example, Frem, I don't believe, would be who is is if he'd grown up in a different environment. He himself seems to think that his responses crystallized into permanent (or semi-permanent) features due to his environment.
But there's also a truism that goes - when we are young, we are the people we were raised to be. When we get old, we are the people we were born to be. I've found that to be true as I go through life and observe how my responses - even my basic perceptions - change. One thing that HASN'T changed is my ADHD, which I suspect is a permanent feature of how my brain functions (a feature which can be found even in monkeys of the same species btw - the brain responds differently to the same challenge in ADHD v non-ADHD monkeys).
I suspect as you get older you'll encounter more and more of the person you were born to be. I wonder who that is.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:Quote:
Either there's some big secret cabal passing notes planning this ...
This one is making more sense all the time, as it turns out.
Wow. You must think you're pretty damned important to warrant your own cabal. By all means, continue to live in the paranoid and self-centered state if you choose.
How's it workin' out for you so far?
Quote:Good point.
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I don't think it can be both. Because if you were 'born mean' - and continue to be mean - then there's an influence not under your control.
Quote:
Anyway, to relate this to 'our truest selves' - I think we are all born with a particular balance of hormonal/ neurochemical responses predominant. Not all of these inborn states are either comfortable, or helpful in terms of survival.
Yes and yes! I think it is a misunderstanding of evolution that every trait in every individual MUST directly contribute to survival. It doesn't work that way. There must be diversity of traits because nature has a lot of randomness. Simple case: the climate may suddenly (in the geologic sense) get much colder or much hotter. A species should have members that will do well with hot but die in cold, and also do well in cold and die in hot, so that the species will survive whichever shift happens.
At any point in time, traits within a species "spread out". Random mutations etc take us in all kinds of directions. Some will help, some won't. Some won't matter.
I have been leaning toward starting a kind of weird thread about this very topic, in fact. Guess I will...
Quote:
But there's also a truism that goes - when we are young, we are the people we were raised to be. When we get old, we are the people we were born to be. I've found that to be true as I go through life and observe how my responses - even my basic perceptions - change.
Yep, I see that. As a kid we are so much like our parents. Man, do I see this in my students, and I know I was. I think some people stay like that if they stay in the same environment, but getting out and about exposes us to new things. As I get older I get all these "samplings" of how I can change. Some of these changes fit whatever I was born to be.
I feel I don't at all resemble the person I was in high school or even in my 20s. I tell people now what I used to be like and they don't believe me. One thing I'm looking forward to in my 25th high school reunion in a few years. OK, I hated high school, but I really am curious to see if those people find me different, or if maybe I'm not as changed as I thought. So I'm looking forward to it as a chance to gather data, so to speak. :)
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Missed this one.
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
And Magons, there's a lot more criticism against the idea of the unconscious than you're realizing. Psychologists still like it though so they do experiments about it. But I find a lot of their experiments don't really met the standards of vigour.
Also, the linked discovery article has exactly the kind of wishy washy poorly supported speculation about dreams that I can't stand.
I've never talked about the 'unconcious' on this thread. You are the one who keeps bringing it up as well as Freud which is why you keep jumping to the idea that someone is accusing you of harbouring repressed memories. Big leap there.
It's interesting to me that you have no evidence to back up your ideas, and yet you require scientific evidence for mine. When I provided some links to some articles, you've criticised the lack of rigour, but still fail to provide links or explain your own ideas in anything other than your own personal experience.
Own personal experience/musings does fine for me on this topic. I think you should be consistent though and not require from others which you are unwilling or unable to provide.
I'm interested in what you think of dreams. What is their purpose? Why is REM sleep important?
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Oh, while you may be aware of more than most, I think it would be impossible to be aware of EVERYthing all the time.
I am aware of EVERYTHING. It's actually incredibly annoying. I feel every stutter in my heart, to the point where I've had myself checked out for a-fib and I probably do have some sort of psychosomatic texidor's twinge.
OTOH - has anyone ever suggested that you might be autistic, or something like it? Autistics tend not to see, hear, or feel as most people do. When confronted with a film which pictures (among other things) a human face in the center, their eyes look at everything equally? That autistics feel fabric texture more acutely than most, to the point where labels and pockets and buttons become very irritating? That autistics hearing tends to be hyperacute? Not that all autistic's senses are all hyperacute, but I think there may be something wrong with the filtering process that allows the brain to turn down the gain on repeated, inconsequential signals.
Just a thought- what do you think?
BTW
Quote:I think there is more to the unconscious than "just" the animalistic parts of the limbic system. Before there was a human brain, there was a fully-functioning other brain... several of them, I think... that did a lot of what the whole brain does: it takes in stimulous, attaches a value to it (good, bad, irrelevant), remembers it for the next time, and is able to make the experience fuzzy (abstract) enough that the memory CAN be used at some future date for comparison. I read of a woman whose memory was destroyed in a car accident. Nonetheless, she COULD be trained to work at a job. Neither she nor the experimenters could figure out how she rememebered, but she did. I think of our brains as like a ladder... several rungs, some lower and some higher but all fully functioning at their level and all operating in parallel
But the unconscious is so poorly understood despite the insistence of psychology that it exists and all the research they do, that I have my doubts that it DOES.
What possible evolutionary advantage is there to have some sort of secret hidden knowledge that we can't tap into as necessary? What would be the purpose of such a division of functions?
What people call the unconscious I suspect is really just the animalistic parts of the limbic system
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME