wildfires and politics

POSTED BY: mal4prez
UPDATED: Sunday, August 9, 2026 14:08
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MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:45 AM

I'm glued to the online broadcast of the fire in Colorado Springs. It hasn't hit the wider web yet, but you can get the local news here:

http://www.krdo.com/news/WATCH-LIVE-KRDO-NewsChannel-13/-/417220/14776
454/-/12eydmxz/-/index.html

The western suburbs are burning, 32,000 are evacuated, my dad's office building has burned down, my parents are in their home 6 miles away from the fire with their car packed, ready to go.

Setting aside my own grief and worry, I'm shaking my head at the politics that are already started about this. They just had a news conference and some yahoo was already at it, trying to set this disaster up as the fault of the federal gov't "getting in the way" or something. (All the people actually fighting the fire flat-out set him straight about that.) Yet, this is also the feds' fault for not doing enough. Never mind the extremely dry conditions, the multiple days of 100+ degree heat, or the 60 mph winds that whipped up at exactly the wrong time this afternoon.

I'm trying not to let my shock and worry lead me to saying mean things, but I need to ask our conservative friends if they really want to get rid of the federal govt and leave every community in the country to battle disasters like this on their own. You can't have it both ways. You can't cut everything back, then demand instant and unlimited help when you need it. You can't say you want the feds the hell out of your life, then blame them when they don't swoop down and save you in a near impossible situation.

So many other issues related to this. Climate change, for instance... ?

Anyway, please discuss. I'll be up all night anyway, checking to see which way this thing goes.

KWICKO

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:00 AM

When it happened here last year our governor, Rick Perry, stopped his campaign for a day or so to pray the fires away.

I'm not making this up.

We only lost 99% of a pine forest and 1800 homes.

Heckuva job, Ricky!

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

KWICKO

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:03 AM

Meanwhile, M4P, please know that my thoughts are with you and yours. I spent much of last summer with a "bugout bag" packed, and with extra rations of water and non-perishable foods and extra clothing and such loaded in my cars, ready to go.

It sucks, and I wish you the best of luck.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:15 AM

Thanks Kwicko. I remember how awful last summer was in Texas. I'm glad you got through it. I have a bad feeling this kind of thing is going to continue indefinitely. Rainfall patterns have changed.

It really adds a dimension when the fires are burning places you know. I've been visiting the Garden of the Gods all my life. And they just evacuated the Kissing Camels neighborhood, which means the fire has burned through the park.

I don't mourn the trees so much, because I vaguely remember some pine trees actually need fire to release seeds from the their cones. I have no doubt that nature will recover. But this is now a city that's going up in flames, and these conditions are going to continue for at least a few days.

And there are several other fires all over the West. I don't know how the firefighters cover all this, and I can't imagine what they're facing right now.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:20 AM

I've had nightmares like that Mal4Prez. Scary. Hope the fire gets under control... There may be thunderstorm systems coming through, which might mean some rain, but which might also mean more sparks and fires.

WISHIMAY

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

I'm trying not to let my shock and worry lead me to saying mean things, but I need to ask our conservative friends if they really want to get rid of the federal govt and leave every community in the country to battle disasters like this on their own. You can't have it both ways. You can't cut everything back, then demand instant and unlimited help when you need it. You can't say you want the feds the hell out of your life, then blame them when they don't swoop down and save you in a near impossible situation.

There will still be natural disasters WITH or WITHOUT government. I'd rather say "Ta hell with Gov't, I'll pay MY insurance and look after me n' mine, you stay on yer side of the line!" than have them be all up in my business AND do nothing in the face of disasters...which, judging by the track record- they are pretty damn good at...

There have always been large burn-offs, and most likely always will be. Harsh truths of nature...I've pretty much built half this place with my own two hands, but if it were ta burn....So what??? I'm not gonna stand around and whine that no one helped me out, I'm gonna get my ass up and KEEP GOING...that's what. Do what's best for me and mine NO MATTER WHAT.
And they are our government....it's in THEIR best interests to help out anyway, and without!!! giving over your freedoms, because without US, there would be no THEM. If they don't plan ahead for things that happen over and over and they KNOW will happen again then GET RID OF THEM AND GOT SOMEONE WHO IS UP TO THE JOB.

I sympathize with the people who have had Mother Earth piss on 'em, 'cause she does that every now and then... and it sucks...but she's prolly got a right to that these days...

Now pick up... and keep walkin'(and try ta help out those that can't.)

KWICKO

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:57 AM

Wish, no matter what the federal government does, it will never be enough. Rappy claimed that Obama did absolutely nothing during the BP oil spill - nothing at all, not one single solitary thing. Others charged that the federal response to Katrina was a disaster. Ron Paul - and you, from the sound of things - thinks we need to get rid of programs like FEMA, just do away with them, let folks figure it out for themselves.

Here's something I wrote a while back about that position, and it applies to fires as well:

Quote:
Ron Paul said that in his view, the federal response to hurricanes should be what it was in 1900, or 1950. I found the 1900 citation quite telling, because that's the year Galveston,Texas was deluged with a monster storm. On an island with a population of 36,000 people, Galveston lost between 6000 and 8000 people in that storm. That's 16% to more than 20% of its population. Ron Paul is from South Texas; he knows the history of hurricanes in the Gulf, especially along the Texas Gulf coast.

Compare that to New Orleans in Katrina, in what is held up as THE modern-day example of what happens when government gets EVERYTHING 100% wrong: In a city with a population (2001 Census figures) of 484,000 people, between 1500 and 1800 people died. Those are horrible figures, but put them in perspective: that's 0.37%. Less than one-half of one percent.

Ron Paul holds up FEMA's performance during Katrina as the example of why a federal response to natural disasters is unnecessary. I'll hold up the response to the 1900 hurricane as the reason a national response HELPS far more than it hurts. His plan gets us death rates of 20%; the FEMA plan is more than forty times more effective.

Further, the Galveston storm destroyed more than 3500 buildings in a city of 36,000 people - wiped them from the face of the Earth. I'd offer to Mr. Paul the proposition that government-mandated stricter building codes have led to better buildings more able to withstand such storms and keep death rates to a minimum.

Ron Paul views a hurricane mortality rate of 20% as acceptable, desirable even, and what we should strive for in his world of limited government. I find a mortality rate from such a storm of less than half of one percent to be too high, and an unacceptable outcome.

That's not the only area where we differ, but it's a key one.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I've had nightmares like that Mal4Prez. Scary. Hope the fire gets under control... There may be thunderstorm systems coming through, which might mean some rain, but which might also mean more sparks and fires.

At this point, I'm more worried about the winds. Thunderstorms only drop water on small areas, and that might actually cause flooding, or so they're saying.

This is just chaos. The news broadcast is back and forth about which areas are actually being evacuated. And little fires are flaring up here and there. Yikes.

1KIKI

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:22 AM

Mal4

" ... my parents are in their home 6 miles away from the fire with their car packed, ready to go ..."

I live in a suburb very close to a national forest. In the last 6 years I’ve twice had major wildfires come (from different directions) within a mile of the house. Both times I've come through OK. It can happen. So I wish your parents the best of luck. Please let us know how things are going.

1KIKI

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:24 AM

Wish

"heaven and earth are not humane"

And that's why people should be.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

There will still be natural disasters WITH or WITHOUT government.

Indeed. Yet we are capable of doing something about them. There are a thousands of people in CO (and other states) watching fires approach their houses, and we have the means to help them. We do not need to live like seven billion separate entities.

And if you really think "they" are doing nothing about this, you're insane. Watch the shots of houses burning in the hills right now: all around are the flashing lights of emergency vehicles. People are risking their lives to help strangers. You don't have to give up your freedoms to support the people taking these risks. You can support them by supporting government programs like firefighting, police, etc.

It is ALL FUCKING RIGHT for organizations to exist without PROFIT being their primary goal. This is what kills me about the political right - they're blinded by this fracked up idea that only organizations that exist for money are morally all right. Backasswards 100%. The point of govt is that it can support things that do nothing but help, which is better for everyone in the long run.

Or do you really think we should just let Colorado Springs burn? And just hope that morally upstanding libertarians take the high road and stop by their neighbor's house with a bucket? How in the hell will it help to have uptrained, un-prepared folks to "keep walkin'(and try ta help out those that can't.)"? You think you can face what those firefighters are dealing with right now?

Meantime, I can't tell where the fire is going. The evacuations are moving steadily east.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Mal4

" ... my parents are in their home 6 miles away from the fire with their car packed, ready to go ..."

I live in a suburb very close to a national forest. In the last 6 years I’ve twice had major wildfires come (from different directions) within a mile of the house. Both times I've come through OK. It can happen. So I wish your parents the best of luck. Please let us know how things are going.

Thanks Kiki. I can't really think that the fire will get to them. If it got that far, half the city would basically be gone.

But man, what a change today. I worry about more winds tomorrow.

RIONAEIRE

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:59 AM

Wishing your parents safety. This has to be really scary and unpleasant for you, its in your family's stompin' ground and that's scary.

Government: As annoying as they can sometimes be, the good they can do is not something I'll ever be able to overlook. Government's job should be to help the people and aiding in natural disasters is something that definitely qualifies. This, and social programs of course, is why I could never be a libertarian, sometimes neighbors helping each other just isn't enough. Let us know what's happening there.

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

YINYANG

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:47 AM

Holy shit! I thought things were bad up where I am (near the High Park fire). While there has been a lot of property damage, the vast majority of the fire is burning trees. Waldo Canyon is threatening a lot more homes.

Keeping the people of Colorado Springs in my thoughts.

if the grass is greener on the other side, it's only because I'm not attending mine

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I'm glued to the online broadcast of the fire in Colorado Springs. It hasn't hit the wider web yet, but you can get the local news here:

http://www.krdo.com/news/WATCH-LIVE-KRDO-NewsChannel-13/-/417220/14776
454/-/12eydmxz/-/index.html

The western suburbs are burning, 32,000 are evacuated, my dad's office building has burned down, my parents are in their home 6 miles away from the fire with their car packed, ready to go.

Setting aside my own grief and worry, I'm shaking my head at the politics that are already started about this. They just had a news conference and some yahoo was already at it, trying to set this disaster up as the fault of the federal gov't "getting in the way" or something. (All the people actually fighting the fire flat-out set him straight about that.) Yet, this is also the feds' fault for not doing enough. Never mind the extremely dry conditions, the multiple days of 100+ degree heat, or the 60 mph winds that whipped up at exactly the wrong time this afternoon.

I'm trying not to let my shock and worry lead me to saying mean things, but I need to ask our conservative friends if they really want to get rid of the federal govt and leave every community in the country to battle disasters like this on their own. You can't have it both ways. You can't cut everything back, then demand instant and unlimited help when you need it. You can't say you want the feds the hell out of your life, then blame them when they don't swoop down and save you in a near impossible situation.

So many other issues related to this. Climate change, for instance... ?

Anyway, please discuss. I'll be up all night anyway, checking to see which way this thing goes.

I know what you are going through.

Take care of yourself and stay safe.

YINYANG

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:12 AM

I'm watching this live stream right now. Seems like reporters always ask evacuees the stupidest questions.

http://www.kktv.com/video/live

if the grass is greener on the other side, it's only because I'm not attending mine

PHOENIXROSE

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:18 AM

Seems like this whole damn state is burning I heard today that the Springs fire is the number one fire priority in the nation because so many homes are at risk. So there's that one, the High Park fire (currently the most destructive in state history) that I'm seeing smoke from every day, and the brand-new fire in Boulder county that I could smell smoke from today, and I think there are something like five others throughout the Front Range. We've had two or three thunderstorms, and the lighting just sparks more fires, and I don't think there's been a day this week where the high temp was less that 100; record-setting heat has been typical. They've stopped a bunch of them, too! I can only imagine what it would be like if all the fires that have started were still burning. We'd probably have fifty of them.
Oh! And authorities are chasing down some crazed arsonist who is lighting even more fires! Up in Teller county, they think someone has lit at least a dozen wildfires. Just what we need.

In terms of politics... I have to say that if I were a campaign strategist for the president, I would tell him to just run footage of all these wildfires interspliced with Romney saying we don't need more firefighters. Considering the amount of devastation and the definite and undeniable need for firefighters here, I think it would make Romney pretty unpopular in Colorado. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are now thousands of firefighters in this state risking their lives, and I'm just... I'm totally on their side.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

KWICKO

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Wish

"heaven and earth are not humane"

And that's why people should be.

QFMFT.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by YINYANG:
Holy shit! I thought things were bad up where I am (near the High Park fire). While there has been a lot of property damage, the vast majority of the fire is burning trees. Waldo Canyon is threatening a lot more homes.

Keeping the people of Colorado Springs in my thoughts.

I've seen some news from people out there near Boulder, maybe closer to where you and PR are. Fires all around. This is just crazy. Such a complicated situation, because with efforts focused on the Springs I hope other fires aren't neglected. Never mind the new ones!

There's total rage against careless smokers going on. Some commenter was ready to lynch a guy last night because he didn't chase down someone else who threw a butt out their car window. Nuts!

Anyway, I'm hoping for good news in the morning updates, and wishing the best for all you living out west.

WISHIMAY

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

There will still be natural disasters WITH or WITHOUT government.

Indeed. Yet we are capable of doing something about them.

Or do you really think we should just let Colorado Springs burn? How in the hell will it help to have uptrained, un-prepared folks

I support Firefighters, as I wouldn't allow one to risk THEIR life for my stupid house.
As for being un-prepared...If you live in Indiana, you SHOULD expect tornadoes, if you live in one of those areas in California you should expect mudslides...live near a forest in summer, prolly outta expect a fire could happen... We had some tornadoes in this area last year. WE didn't get federal aid because people got off their butts and cleaned it up themselves. That's the way it should be...

Life is unexpected. If you have an interest in your own, might wanna plan for the unexpected.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I'm glued to the online broadcast of the fire in Colorado Springs. It hasn't hit the wider web yet, but you can get the local news here:

http://www.krdo.com/news/WATCH-LIVE-KRDO-NewsChannel-13/-/417220/14776
454/-/12eydmxz/-/index.html

The western suburbs are burning, 32,000 are evacuated, my dad's office building has burned down, my parents are in their home 6 miles away from the fire with their car packed, ready to go.

Setting aside my own grief and worry, I'm shaking my head at the politics that are already started about this. They just had a news conference and some yahoo was already at it, trying to set this disaster up as the fault of the federal gov't "getting in the way" or something. (All the people actually fighting the fire flat-out set him straight about that.) Yet, this is also the feds' fault for not doing enough. Never mind the extremely dry conditions, the multiple days of 100+ degree heat, or the 60 mph winds that whipped up at exactly the wrong time this afternoon.

I'm trying not to let my shock and worry lead me to saying mean things, but I need to ask our conservative friends if they really want to get rid of the federal govt and leave every community in the country to battle disasters like this on their own. You can't have it both ways. You can't cut everything back, then demand instant and unlimited help when you need it. You can't say you want the feds the hell out of your life, then blame them when they don't swoop down and save you in a near impossible situation.

So many other issues related to this. Climate change, for instance... ?

Anyway, please discuss. I'll be up all night anyway, checking to see which way this thing goes.

I've sent my first e-mail to my homeowner's insurance company about my HUGE increase in payments in my 2nd year here. It's over a 10% increase.

Just like Government "spreading the wealth" everyone has to pay for it in the end....

I'm considering dumping my insurance altogether....

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

There will still be natural disasters WITH or WITHOUT government.

Indeed. Yet we are capable of doing something about them.

Exactly what I was going to say. Government can try to reduce the effects of future disasters, with better building regulations and training, but they are needed to mobilize the equipment, manpower and MONEY necessary to stop it while it's happening, and to repair the large scale mess after, not repairing one house, but rebuilding the entire city, or replanting the entire forest, cleaning up the entire Gulf.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

I support Firefighters, as I wouldn't allow one to risk THEIR life for my stupid house.
As for being un-prepared...If you live in Indiana, you SHOULD expect tornadoes, if you live in one of those areas in California you should expect mudslides...live near a forest in summer, prolly outta expect a fire could happen... We had some tornadoes in this area last year. WE didn't get federal aid because people got off their butts and cleaned it up themselves. That's the way it should be...

Life is unexpected. If you have an interest in your own, might wanna plan for the unexpected.

It's not about one house. If this fire was left on its own, much of this city would have gone last night, and it'd beset to really take off when the winds pick up later today. Really, left alone, this fire could demolish the city. And that would do a lot more harm than to those silly folks who had the temerity to build their homes near trees. [/snark]

For instance, my dad's business office, which thankfully did NOT burn. I found out this morning that hundreds of firefighters were right there and saved it. (Thankfully, what I'm seeing on the news is that the firefighters did an amazing job holding this thing back all through that neighborhood.) That's not just good for dad's job - this is a major communications hub, and losing it would have affected a lot of people.

Here's what I mean that we are not 7 billion separate independent entities. You and I greatly benefit from being in a SOCIETY. Could you build that computer you're typing on? Could you write the software that runs the internet and lay all the wires connecting the world and run the power plants that make the electrons in the wires wiggle? Of course not. No individual can do all that. Someone else did it for you. And me.

But they were able to do it for us because we provide services in return. I don't know what you do for a living, but I teach. Because of what teachers do, people don't have to stay home and school their kids all day. They can do to work and build the internet. And because someone else prepares fairly nutritious and easy to prepare frozen dinners for Trader Joe's, I can be well fed without having to grow a garden or butcher a chicken or even chop veggies. So I can focus on grading and preparing my classes. See?

There is interdependence in our system, and that's why we're not hunter-gatherers anymore. (Though, really, that also relied on team work.) On the downside, that means one part of our system getting damaged hurts all of us.

OK, 9-11. Realistically, a very very small fraction of us were personally affected. A few thousand lost loved ones, probably tens of thousands lost their work places and homes. If we were complete individual automatons, not affected by each other at all, that event would have had no effect on a huge country of 300 million people.

But it did have a huge effect. We are connected. We rely on each other. To deny it is to deny what so many people have done to support the way of life you currently enjoy, and to refuse to contribute back is selfish and short-sighted, imo.

ETA: I am quite impressed at how positive and supportive people in the Springs are being about this. Most of them. Besides that first guy in the news conference last night, folks are being so cool and helpful. Especially the firefighters. I think there's a whole novel of stories going on back there that we haven't seen.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
There will still be natural disasters WITH or WITHOUT government.

To clarify, Wishimay said this, not me. And in that post seemed to suggest that we all take care of our own and to hell with organized, planned preparation by a central govt. That later part of the post is what I disagree with.

Because yes, of course disasters happen. And sometimes they take a turn for the worse, like yesterday, and the "authorities" may not be able to stop it. This does mean we blame them and get rid of them and refuse to support them - financially and politically - in the future.

Because natural disasters can be MUCH less devastating with a govt to provide aid. To suggest otherwise is just screwy.

PHOENIXROSE

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
being un-prepared...live near a forest in summer, prolly outta expect a fire could happen...
We had some tornadoes in this area last year. WE didn't get federal aid

So everyone living in Colorado should train to fight fires?

You don't seem to comprehend that this is more than just a "mess" from a tornado destroying some buildings. There was a tornado in Weld county a few years ago (totally unexpected, btw, because the mountains usually block winds from being able to form strong funnel clouds; we get a few warnings, but very few actual tornadoes) and it was cleaned up without a whole lot of issue as well. A few people needed shelter from the Red Cross for a couple days, areas of Windsor were rebuilt, and life went on.
Fires are not really the same sort of animal. Imagine that instead of a funnel cloud touching down and demolishing a few blocks of buildings, you had a funnel cloud miles wide that just stayed on the ground. For days. Slowly advancing and devouring homes, businesses, farms, ranches, and natural preserves. If there was a way to fight that off, requiring some specialized training and gear that a government system can provide far more ably than any individual... you're saying that shouldn't be done because everyone should just "be prepared" to fight off their own goddamn tornado? Because if you're saying that, you are wrong on a level that makes my head spin.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

KWICKO

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

I support Firefighters, as I wouldn't allow one to risk THEIR life for my stupid house.
As for being un-prepared...If you live in Indiana, you SHOULD expect tornadoes, if you live in one of those areas in California you should expect mudslides...live near a forest in summer, prolly outta expect a fire could happen... We had some tornadoes in this area last year. WE didn't get federal aid because people got off their butts and cleaned it up themselves. That's the way it should be...

Life is unexpected. If you have an interest in your own, might wanna plan for the unexpected.

Would you say the same thing about healthcare, or abortion? "Life's unexpected; deal with it yourself."

Seems a pretty cold way to live.

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
There will still be natural disasters WITH or WITHOUT government.

To clarify, Wishimay said this, not me. And in that post seemed to suggest that we all take care of our own and to hell with organized, planned preparation by a central govt. That later part of the post is what I disagree with.

Because yes, of course disasters happen. And sometimes they take a turn for the worse, like yesterday, and the "authorities" may not be able to stop it. This does mean we blame them and get rid of them and refuse to support them - financially and politically - in the future.

Because natural disasters can be MUCH less devastating with a govt to provide aid. To suggest otherwise is just screwy.

If I mis -attributed this, it was unintentional. Sorry.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
If I mis -attributed this, it was unintentional. Sorry.

No problem. Just wanted to make sure it's clear which side I'm arguing here. Not that there should be much doubt...

NIKI2

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:13 PM

Mal4, my heart really goes out to you. I've been watching the news, and when they put up a map with all the wildfires circled, it just boggles my mind. It's like the whole state is going up in flames in so many areas. Gawd forbid any of them should join up (tho' it looks like some already HAVE!). And I KNOW Magons empathizes; they just went through their own horrors Down Under a little while ago.

In my opinion, those who have the "I got mine, fuck you" mentality are full of shit. Why are we a union, if we're not going to take care of one another? Tho' I'm sure they'd prefer that, too, from the sound of them. Some people just don't get it or are so blinded by their "no government" stance that they're unable to see.

I really empathize; you know how many fires we get every year here in CA. Admittedly most of them are down South, but we get our share now and again. And yes, mudslides inevitably follow, if not when rain comes through to help with the fires, then for sure the next Winter. After all people have been through in a big fire, my heart aches for them when the mudslides come later and often wipe out some who survived the fires.

As for letting "natural" disasters do their own thing, does anyone remember when they tried that in Yellowstone, and what resulted? There are as many UNnatural fires these days as those Nature creates--like the people tossing cigarette butts out windows, or the idjits setting campfires without knowing how to contain them...not to mention the crazies who set them ON PURPOSE. There's also the fact that many non-native species have been brought into the picture by humans; we're fighting sudden-oak death which is leaving lots of dead trees around, there's a beetle which has destroyed more, and those dead trees are just asking for trouble...not to mention all the damned eucalyptus that was brought here and put up by farmers as windbreaks. Those puppies EXPLODE in a fire, they don't just burn; we had excellent evidence of the danger they represent a few years back when they took out a hospital in the East Bay. We've built and live in places we never should have, and affected where we live in ways Nature never intended; we've brought creation of wildfires where they would never happen naturally. I DO weep for the trees, and animals, and everything/everyone that fires destroy. Nature has a balance and I have to accept that, but "balance" is long gone.

For people to think they'll take care of things in their own area, they're missing the fact that keeping a corps of trained firefighters and waiting for a fire costs a lot of money. You can't just send guys out to fight a fire, they'd do more harm than good, and many would die. Firefighting is hard and tricky work, and if you can't call in people from out of state to help, you're eventually royally screwed.

I'd like to see how these "no government" people would feel if it really DID destroy everything they own; it's real easy to say "so what" until it hits YOU, or even, as is happening to Mal4 and others, when it hits those you love, their businesses and lives. The big Santa Cruz fire we had a couple of years back hit me like a ton of bricks, and I don't even know anyone down there who was affected. It's enough to know that places you've loved all your lives are gone forever and imagine what it would be like to see it coming toward your home. I don't think some people are able to imagine how it would feel or what it would do; it's easy to be blase about it until it hits home. I thank gawd we're surrounded by redwoods; those puppies are the best fire break in the world; but even that wouldn't help us if a fire broke out near our home.

I'm actually avoiding the news on it by now; I can't bear to see how many and how they keep going any more. I really feel for you, and

WISHIMAY

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Would you say the same thing about healthcare, or abortion? "Life's unexpected; deal with it yourself."

Seems a pretty cold way to live.

NO, that's why I pay insurance and why I've been dilgent that I would only have one child. I thought it was one of the unwritten rules of life that Gov't miight be there if you need it but if you really really wanna be sure, best to have your own butt covered.

I tried relying on the gov't once and I got the cold shoulder. Makes one grow up and understand the reality of existence really damn quick. No one is gonna care more about you than you yourself can.

WISHIMAY

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
If there was a way to fight that off, requiring some specialized training and gear that a government system can provide far more ably than any individual... you're saying that shouldn't be done because everyone should just "be prepared" to fight off their own goddamn tornado? Because if you're saying that, you are wrong on a level that makes my head spin.

I'm saying that PEOPLE should do more to fix things themselves, and quit sitting on their hands going "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." I don't believe a gov't IS more able, to do ANYTHING. A local problem is better fixed by people who are local than some idiot about to tee off a thousand miles away. Ever heard of civilian organizations?

NIKI2

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:53 PM

Can you even conceive of how many civilian organizations it would require, and at what cost, for each state to "take care of" its own? Where would Colorado be today if they only had their own "civilian organization" of firefighteres out there fighting the current fires?

It's sad how some peple seem to be incapable of conceiving of a middle ground. How they can't imagine citizens pitching in to help when their own resources requires help from the government. It has to be all or nothing for people like you, and that's sad because the result, if you got your way, would be devastating. I'm sorry for you.

Absolutes when it comes to political stances are no answer to anything, just partisan blathering.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
If there was a way to fight that off, requiring some specialized training and gear that a government system can provide far more ably than any individual... you're saying that shouldn't be done because everyone should just "be prepared" to fight off their own goddamn tornado? Because if you're saying that, you are wrong on a level that makes my head spin.

I'm saying that PEOPLE should do more to fix things themselves, and quit sitting on their hands going "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." I don't believe a gov't IS more able, to do ANYTHING. A local problem is better fixed by people who are local than some idiot about to tee off a thousand miles away. Ever heard of civilian organizations?

You're making a big assumption here. Do you really think that this basic help-yourself stuff is something novel that you thought up and no one else has ever tried? No. Duh. The difference between you and me is that I assume people are sensible enough to have taken those steps, and you seem to think you're the only one who's come up with such novel ideas. You, and most conservatives these days, seem to think that supporting govt programs means taking no individual actions. Why do you make it all or nothing?

I heard that, as of this morning, maybe 200 homes in western CO springs have burned. Do you think those people didn't have insurance? Do you think they made no efforts to clear brush, wet their trees, get out their fire extinguishers, make plans with neighbors to help each other? Do you really believe none of this actions were taken, or that these actions could have stopped this fire?

Do you any concept of how DEAD a bunch of civilians would be if they had tried to stop that inferno coming down the mountain? Or how FAILED a small-town local fire dept would be if they tried to handle it with no outside help?

Really, I find it frustrating how people like you assume that others are sitting on their sofas, not buying insurance, not taking basic steps to prepare themselves against disasters, and whining "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." Maybe you make the assumption that other people are like that because your own mindset is, or was, once something like that? I have no idea what you're like, but you do seem to think it's a big step to take care of one's own shit. Um... not so much. That's pretty much a basic for most of us.

BTW, your above post is pretty much a callous, offensive and dickish thing to say right now. How about you fly out to Colorado, sit down with the 32000 evacuees and tell them to stop whining: "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me...". And when you're done, head to the hills and show us just how your patented "self-reliance plan" can save an entire city.

ANTHONYT

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:25 PM

Quote:
Ever heard of civilian organizations?

Hello,

There may be many problems a local group of civilians can solve. Let's call this group a 'neighborhood.'

When a problem is beyond them, they may form a larger unit of civilians with more resources who all chip into solving the problem. Let's call this group a 'city.'

When a problem outstrips the capacity of those people to handle, they may form into a larger unit of people from a larger swath of the area. Let's call this group a 'county.'

Sometimes even more people and resources are needed to solve a problem, and sometimes a problem is a wide ranging problem requiring input from people outside the county. When this happens, the civilians form into a vast collective force known as a 'state.'

Occasionally, even a state is confronted with problems that are bigger than its capacity to handle. When this happens, the civilians from across the land pool resources and form what we call a 'nation.'

I often have problems with the way these civilian collectives solve their problems and make decisions. However, I am not prepared to dismiss the need for them.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

HERO

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Can you even conceive of how many civilian organizations it would require, and at what cost, for each state to "take care of" its own? Where would Colorado be today if they only had their own "civilian organization" of firefighteres out there fighting the current fires?

I guessing they'd have an out of control fire...so they'd be in exactly the same position today.

Tomorrow is where interstate and interagency cooperation counts most.

Quote:

Absolutes when it comes to political stances are no answer to anything, just partisan blathering.

Katrina, Bush let the black folks drown.

Colorado, Obama let the white folks burn.

Both statements are equally stupid since the weather is actually controlled by Sean Connery.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

YINYANG

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
In terms of politics... I have to say that if I were a campaign strategist for the president, I would tell him to just run footage of all these wildfires interspliced with Romney saying we don't need more firefighters. Considering the amount of devastation and the definite and undeniable need for firefighters here, I think it would make Romney pretty unpopular in Colorado. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are now thousands of firefighters in this state risking their lives, and I'm just... I'm totally on their side.

Obama's doing one better: he's coming to tour the Waldo Canyon fire on Friday.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_20951895/president-obama-tou
r-waldo-canyon-fire-friday

PHOENIXROSE

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:14 PM

I adore you, Anthony.

Quote:
Originally posted by YINYANG:
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_20951895/president-obama-tou
r-waldo-canyon-fire-friday]

Good for him!
(I'm still in favor of repetition, repetition, repetition.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I guessing they'd have an out of control fire...so they'd be in exactly the same position today.

No. Less control could easily mean half the city of Colorado Springs gone. If it was only the fire dept. of the Springs trying to beat it back, they couldn't have done it, because it required hundreds of people to hold a containment line at the city limits. The wind broke that line, but they're re-establishing it.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

KWICKO

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Katrina, Bush let the black folks drown.

Colorado, Romney said let the white folks burn, since we don't need any more firefighters.

Fixed that for ya!

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

KWICKO

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Would you say the same thing about healthcare, or abortion? "Life's unexpected; deal with it yourself."

Seems a pretty cold way to live.

NO, that's why I pay insurance and why I've been dilgent that I would only have one child. I thought it was one of the unwritten rules of life that Gov't miight be there if you need it but if you really really wanna be sure, best to have your own butt covered.

I tried relying on the gov't once and I got the cold shoulder. Makes one grow up and understand the reality of existence really damn quick. No one is gonna care more about you than you yourself can.

Okay, I've got fire insurance, health insurance, life insurance. I can reasonably protect my house and family. What I *DON'T* have, though, is fire insurance on an entire forest, an entire city, or even my entire block, or the ability to fight the fire while it's ten miles away instead of when it's on my doorstep.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

I'm trying not to let my shock and worry lead me to saying mean things, but I need to ask our conservative friends if they really want to get rid of the federal govt and leave every community in the country to battle disasters like this on their own. You can't have it both ways. You can't cut everything back, then demand instant and unlimited help when you need it. You can't say you want the feds the hell out of your life, then blame them when they don't swoop down and save you in a near impossible situation.

So many other issues related to this. Climate change, for instance... ?

Anyway, please discuss. I'll be up all night anyway, checking to see which way this thing goes.

Govt has a proper function. Aiding in natural disasters and helping control illegal immigration, yes, but telling us how much soda we can buy or forcing us to put in pool side ladles for the handicap, not so much. The problem is the bureaucrats who want govt to be everything for everyone ( Obama's "Julia" , is a prime example ), and that is NOT what the founders had intended.

It's not suppose to be an 'all or nothing' proposition. Anyone who says that is lying, or is trying to deceive. What gets folks so annoyed is how some want to thrust govt upon us , at every damn turn of our lives, and then scream that if we didn't have govt, we'd all be living in anarchy! No one would fight fires, pick up trash, or catch criminals! What a load of hooey. Those things are what govt SHOULD be doing, and yet there's long list of pork that steals $ away from essential services, to placate certain voter blocks, which keep " the right people " in Washington, or where ever.

A comparison can be made to the mafia, who come around and hit up shop owners for 'protection money'. " Nice place ya got here. Sure would be a shame if it accidentally caught fire one night...or if your pretty wife or daughter crossed paths w/ the wrong sort of people, while their on the way home from work, or ballet class. "

Cases like this fire are prime examples. Why if Republicans had their way, there'd be NO ONE to fight this fire !! See what I mean? It's either all or nothing with some folks. Yes, we need fire , police and EMT's, but we DON'T need John Murtha Regional Airports, which serve next to no one. or even a Reagan Int'l Conference center. And there are 1000's of examples i could give, but no one cares about THOSE silly little things, not when there's an actual big ass fire burning in Colorado! That's NEWS! That's NOW!

And that's the point. The big govt types will use these extreme situations to rustle up sympathy for more and more govt, so that ' never again!' will there be any thing like this happen to the good people of our great nation!

please!

And don't get me started on the 100% sham that is ' climate change'.

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

KWICKO

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
If there was a way to fight that off, requiring some specialized training and gear that a government system can provide far more ably than any individual... you're saying that shouldn't be done because everyone should just "be prepared" to fight off their own goddamn tornado? Because if you're saying that, you are wrong on a level that makes my head spin.

I'm saying that PEOPLE should do more to fix things themselves, and quit sitting on their hands going "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." I don't believe a gov't IS more able, to do ANYTHING. A local problem is better fixed by people who are local than some idiot about to tee off a thousand miles away. Ever heard of civilian organizations?

Can you tell me which non-government civilian organization built the Hoover Dam or the Golden Gate Bridge?

Can you tell me which non-government civilian organization electrified the rural United States? Or even your city?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:43 PM

I see Kwickie has his usual selective reading skills on display.

Ever heard of C.C. Myers ? Google is your friend.

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

PHOENIXROSE

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
I'm saying that PEOPLE should do more to fix things themselves, and quit sitting on their hands going "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." I don't believe a gov't IS more able, to do ANYTHING.

I see. Well, out of respect for your views, I hope that if your house ever catches fire, the government-run fire department will leave you to deal with it on your own.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
If there was a way to fight that off, requiring some specialized training and gear that a government system can provide far more ably than any individual... you're saying that shouldn't be done because everyone should just "be prepared" to fight off their own goddamn tornado? Because if you're saying that, you are wrong on a level that makes my head spin.

I'm saying that PEOPLE should do more to fix things themselves, and quit sitting on their hands going "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." I don't believe a gov't IS more able, to do ANYTHING. A local problem is better fixed by people who are local than some idiot about to tee off a thousand miles away. Ever heard of civilian organizations?

Can you tell me which non-government civilian organization built the Hoover Dam or the Golden Gate Bridge?

Can you tell me which non-government civilian organization electrified the rural United States? Or even your city?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

And before we even start with the idea that private companies would do better: for-profit companies won't bother putting in internet in the rural areas, where there's not enough customers. That's not how a country gets technologically advanced. We need to do things because it's good for the overall health and progress of the US, not because it profits share-holders and nets big bonuses for CEOs.

And because I am in a rare position of thread-starter, I will kindly ask Kwicko to not turn this into a flame war with the usual poster who is dangling the usual low-hanging fruit. Yes he's wrong, yes he's annoying in his misunderstanding of the topic, gross generalizations, strawmen, etc. But stating the obvious will do nothing but turn this thread into the usual tit-for-tat. Thank you so much for not doing it.

In CO: the afternoon line of thunderstorms has not exploded as it did yesterday. Very good news! I just caught a time lapse of the fire taking off during the storm yesterday. Insane

Re Obama: I'm glad he's bringing attention and support to this, but I wish he would not visit so soon. It would better to avoid the distraction until the fire is really out. Better that he voice his support and send someone minor who wouldn't disrupt operations, then come in a week or two. Hopefully his visit will be brief.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
I'm saying that PEOPLE should do more to fix things themselves, and quit sitting on their hands going "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." I don't believe a gov't IS more able, to do ANYTHING.

I see. Well, out of respect for your views, I hope that if your house ever catches fire, the government-run fire department will leave you to deal with it on your own.

PR, your reply is exactly what I'm taking about. Over the top hyperbole and distortion of the issue. No one has ever said what you're suggesting, and yet you keep saying it anyways. It's beyond infuriating to even try to have a sensible , reasonable discussion , it seems.

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:05 PM

That isn't respect for her views at all! :P

Honestly, I've been avoiding addressing the thread topic myself for a reason - it is actually difficult for me to reconcile that there probably are services we DO need, with my hatred and dislike for anything bureaucratic, and my paranoia that when you give people that power, they could deliberately WITHHOLD help and that it may be a bad precedence.

My best effort to justify myself all this says that I shouldn't try to take services and security away from the people who want them, but rather I should move outside of the jurisdication of those services. My personal disaster plan is that I don't really want to own so much stuff that any of it amounts to any significant wealth that could be lost or that I couldn't pack up and flee ahead of any disaster, natural or man-made. But that isn't because I'm somehow better than people who do want an easier life, or because I'm a pull myself up by the bootstraps person (I'm not), but rather because I can admit that I have a very skewed worldview and somewhat low opinion about my own self-worth.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
I'm saying that PEOPLE should do more to fix things themselves, and quit sitting on their hands going "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." I don't believe a gov't IS more able, to do ANYTHING.

I see. Well, out of respect for your views, I hope that if your house ever catches fire, the government-run fire department will leave you to deal with it on your own.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

Anthony totally called it. (I love him too PR! What a voice of reason.) It's interesting that "groups of people working together" is deemed A-OK, but "government" is evil and useless. Really, wishimay did suggest that the govt is 100% useless. Which suggests that she isn't watching the news in CO right now.

I think the difference is that "government" has attempted to regulate big business, so big business bought itself a political party, carried out a propaganda war, and a large part of the country has bought into the nonsense.

I don't mean to completely villain-ize wish. She and I share a similar frustration with people expecting the government to save them, but my frustration is not that govt aid is wanted as much as that it is expected without being supported. People will cheer Romney and his cutting of fire depts and teachers, but then they'll scream when their house isn't saved or when a weak, pushover old lady is employed as a bus monitor and can't handle middle school bullies. (How's that for a change in topic LOL! I've seen complaints about this on other sites.) But I think it's similar - public schools need support if they are to hire more competent employees. Fire depts need support to be prepared for things like this.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
That isn't respect for her views at all! :P

Well, she said that she thought the govt groups could NOT do a good job. So keeping those "incompetents" away from her seems like it'd be a kindness.

Quote:
Honestly, I've been avoiding addressing the thread topic myself for a reason - it is actually difficult for me to reconcile that there probably are services we DO need, with my hatred and dislike for anything bureaucratic, and my paranoia that when you give people that power, they could deliberately WITHHOLD help and that it may be a bad precedence.

That's a terrifying thought. I understand your fear, and I don't think this kind of caution should ever go away. The only way to stop abuse of power is to be aware of the possibility of it.

But I don't think it has to handicap us. The root of it is that we all so easily see "Them", the people in charge, as some other species. As Anthony said, govt is just groups of people trying to help each other. You can see it in CO right now, and I say this as someone who pretty disdains most of the population of the Springs. Bunch of Focus on the Family Fuckwads.

But they are all about getting through this as a city right now, and it's lovely.

Yes, to live in a society and enjoy the benefits of it, you have to give "Them" power, and that's scary. But if you ask your neighbors to feed your cat while you're away you are also handing power to people you do not know 100%. There is always risk in interacting with other people.

All you can do is be careful. Checks and balances. I find the risk is always lower than my fears and the news would have me think. I often don't lock my front door or my car (unless I leave my computer in there.) And it's really OK. Not everyone is out to get me. I have the top off my Jeep now, and I leave stuff in there while it's parked in the train station all day, and all is well.

Really, I think the "bad" out there is so much smaller than most of us think.

Quote:
My best effort to justify myself all this says that I shouldn't try to take services and security away from the people who want them, but rather I should move outside of the jurisdication of those services. My personal disaster plan is that I don't really want to own so much stuff that any of it amounts to any significant wealth that could be lost or that I couldn't pack up and flee ahead of any disaster, natural or man-made. But that isn't because I'm somehow better than people who do want an easier life, or because I'm a pull myself up by the bootstraps person (I'm not), but rather because I can admit that I have a very skewed worldview and somewhat low opinion about my own self-worth.

I respect that. I am similarly skewed, and my theory is to at least not harm others with my skewed-ness. This involves a bit of keeping myself separate, so I know what you mean.

But I'm definitely a pull-myself-up kind of person. I feel that, with the exception of one parental $$ loan that I did not have to pay back, no one ever gave me anything. However, I've found a decent place in life by taking advantage of opportunities that could have easily not been there. I owe a debt to karma, and frankly I don't do enough to pay it back. I'm not really sure how to, besides trying to be a nicer person. (I don't always succeed.

) Hopefully I'll find ways to do more as I get older.

1KIKI

Thursday, June 28, 2012 4:15 AM

"It would better to avoid the distraction until the fire is really out."

Just a small bit I find interesting - here in SoCal fires continue to burn underground for months until the rainy season. I'm not sure what would happen if we had a major fire followed by a severe drought with 4" of rain or less.

WISHIMAY

Thursday, June 28, 2012 4:27 AM

I don't think you get anything I said really, including that I am not conservative. Neither am I liberal. I wouldn't claim either side. In fact, I think people choosing sides just bogs EVERYTHING down...

I'm saying I don't want anybody risking their life over a damn building, especially mine, as you can have a better one ordered and built in the same month, now. I am also saying that I see these wildfires every year, and its pretty clear that Gov't is fairly ineffectual at doing much of anything about 'em 'cause they still get out of control every year. Saving a building here or there, or a person who wouldn't leave, while noble... doesn't make much sense to me anyway. It's like standing in front of a tornado blowing a whistle in the hopes it'll go the other direction. Fighting a giant fire one yard at a time seems pretty futile in my book. And why?? To save stuff, or avoid higher insurance premiums??? Save the people who need it, forget about the junk...

And Firefighters do more than just fight fires. I'm not saying we should get rid of Firefighters. I'm saying I think they should be funded and run by civillian organizations. I think WE ALL depend on gov't too much. Some people like that...I don't. I doubt my opinion will change much.
I'll avoid saying "I Told You So" when they start by regulating customs like circumcision, and end up doing worse, like medical experiments on soldiers, or drafting people to fight wars they don't believe in, or accidentally blowing up whole buildings full with drones.... wait... I guess those were necessary evils for civilization, right?

When you seek Gov't protection, you get what you get...

1KIKI

Thursday, June 28, 2012 4:50 AM

"... and its pretty clear that Gov't is fairly ineffectual at doing much of anything about 'em 'cause they still get out of control every year."

It's kinda' like public schools, isn't it? Just keep cutting the funding, and then blame them for not doing the job.

If government were to really control fires, it would need crews, equipment and money. And a plan. I read a study, which I haven't been able to find again, where the government funded a study on fire suppression that set up four VERY large areas as quadrants in a square - perhaps 5x5miles each - and did four different things. 1) nothing 2) thin the trees 3) controlled burning 4) thinning AND burning. A year or two later a very large forest fire raged through the area. So the researchers went back to see what worked in their unanticipated test. The 'do nothing' area was burned just as badly as the surrounding forest. The 'thin', and the 'burn' areas took longer to succumb, and didn’t burn quite as badly (the dirt wasn't glassified), but were not very successful either. The 'thin AND burn' area OTOH came away nearly unscathed. The aerial photo was stunning in its simplicity.

So, what do YOU think stands in the way of effective fire suppression?

"I'm saying I think they should be funded and run by civillian organizations."

Local? Small? Uncoordinated with other organizations from other areas? I'm hoping you see the limitations of that.

"I think WE ALL depend on gov't too much."

So that your air pollution doesn't hurt my lungs? So that your water pollution doesn't hurt my water supply? So that your E. coli contaminated beef doesn't end up in my supermarket? What do you mean by that?

"When you seek Gov't protection, you get what you get..."

When you have the vote and don't vote on issues, or don't vote at all, you get what you deserve.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Can you even conceive of how many civilian organizations it would require, and at what cost, for each state to "take care of" its own? Where would Colorado be today if they only had their own "civilian organization" of firefighteres out there fighting the current fires?

It's sad how some peple seem to be incapable of conceiving of a middle ground. How they can't imagine citizens pitching in to help when their own resources requires help from the government. It has to be all or nothing for people like you, and that's sad because the result, if you got your way, would be devastating. I'm sorry for you.

Absolutes when it comes to political stances are no answer to anything, just partisan blathering.

It doesn't have to be an either/either scenario. Living in one of the worst fire prone areas in the world, I know this first hand. People do prepare themselves and their homes, but as in the case of the 2009 Black Saturday fires, it wasn't enough. Lots of well prepared people died.

I live in a country that has lots of government, but people still pitch in and work damned hard for their community for nothing. We have highly trained volunteer firefighters known as the CFA and the State Emergency Service, also volunteer. They both do highly dangerous work when taking care of the rest of us nuff nuffs, but they need equipment, they need training, they need co-ordinating. And when large scale disasters happen, like back in 2009 when basically the whole state was on fire, many, many services, volunteer and professional were working around the clock to help save lives and property, central co-ordination was needed to make it all work. Lots of mistakes were made, and lots of learning had to happen as a result.

I guess what I am trying to say is that all of this can use imput and financial assistance from a central authority.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
I don't think you get anything I said really, including that I am not conservative. Neither am I liberal. I wouldn't claim either side. In fact, I think people choosing sides just bogs EVERYTHING down...

I did not say you were. I purposely said something like: "you and conservatives", putting you in a list with them, but as a separate item. That's because I do not know where you stand but in this matter you are stating exactly the rightie line.

Quote:
I'm saying I don't want anybody risking their life over a damn building, especially mine, as you can have a better one ordered and built in the same month, now.

Um, I've been over this before. You do understand, I hope, that no one is talking about one building here. Right? We are talking about a wildfire that looked damned near stoppable, like it is was heading for Kansas, but now thanks to the firefighters (and improved conditions) it has retreated.

Quote:
I am also saying that I see these wildfires every year, and its pretty clear that Gov't is fairly ineffectual at doing much of anything about 'em 'cause they still get out of control every year.

This is incredibly immature, simplistic, and has nothing to do with reality. Why bother feeding your kid today, since they're just going to hungry again tomorrow, right? *facepalm*

As I asked you before, would you please look at the news before you say something like this? The city of CO Springs would be ashes right now if not for the firefighters. They have been very fucking effective.

About saving people first: again, you seem to think that this is your idea that hasn't ever occurred to anyone else. Which proves that you aren't paying attention. If you listened to the firefighters, you'd know that this is exactly what they're doing, what they ALWAYS do. You'll also note that there have been no injuries in the Waldo County Fire so far. Evacuations were handled smoothly - hey, by the govt - and more than 30000 were evacuated from their homes without incident. So yes, they saved the people first. But then they did NOT just forget about the "junk", which is nice because now the city is, for the most part, intact. And still no one is hurt.

If they'd done what you suggest and let the fire freely go on its way, which meant right into the heart of the city, it's very likely that someone would have been hurt.

Quote:
And Firefighters do more than just fight fires. I'm not saying we should get rid of Firefighters. I'm saying I think they should be funded and run by civillian organizations.

Back to what Anthony said (and I'm getting a very strong feeling that you aren't reading anyone's posts, because this has been stated multiple time.) Fire departments ARE funded and run by civilian organizations. That's what govt is.

Quote:
I think WE ALL depend on gov't too much. Some people like that...I don't. I doubt my opinion will change much.
I'll avoid saying "I Told You So" when they start by regulating customs like circumcision, and end up doing worse, like medical experiments on soldiers, or drafting people to fight wars they don't believe in, or accidentally blowing up whole buildings full with drones.... wait... I guess those were necessary evils for civilization, right?

You've got a funny filter. You're pouncing all over the bad things govt does, yet won't admit to a single good thing. Then you relate the bad things to other groups that have nothing to do with it. Sounds an awful lot like you've made your conclusion already, or had it impressed on you: "GOVERNMENT=BAD" and you only admit observations that back this up. Sure, there are bad things in govt, and they should be stopped. Do you cut off you child's hand because he/she mouthed off to you? Of course not. Nor do you throw out schools and fire depts because some far-off branch of govt is misbehaving. You go a

ANTHONYT

Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:56 PM

Quote:
I'll avoid saying "I Told You So" when they start by regulating customs like circumcision, and end up doing worse, like medical experiments on soldiers, or drafting people to fight wars they don't believe in, or accidentally blowing up whole buildings full with drones.... wait... I guess those were necessary evils for civilization, right?

When you seek Gov't protection, you get what you get...

Hello,

I think any collective takes power away from the individual. On the other hand, there are problems that only a collective seems well-equipped to handle.

What I want to aim for is a better collective. It doesn't particularly matter whether you want to call that collective 'the federal government' or 'the fifty-thousand free people who assembled into this volunteer militia and who are answerable to the three-hundred million society for the defense of the common people.'

I would agree that current wildfire fighting methods are poor, but I do not think abandoning entire cities to burn in a fire is a better option. A better solution would probably be to perform forest management and urban containment in anticipation of wildfire season before any fire presents itself. However, no collective I am aware of, private or public, has been given the resources or authority to do such a thing effectively.

I would very much like to hear suggestions about how to build better collectives. And I really don't care what these collectives are called, because I don't see much difference between a state government and a state public coalition of free persons assembled voluntarily for the good of the group. Those are just names.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

PIZMOBEACH

Thursday, June 28, 2012 2:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I would very much like to hear suggestions about how to build better collectives. And I really don't care what these collectives are called, because I don't see much difference between a state government and a state public coalition of free persons assembled voluntarily for the good of the group. Those are just names.

Not to thread jack but this is a very interesting thing to contemplate. I think it's the structure of "group problem solving" that we don't have right, not necessarily the "bad" people. Or, the structure has to be such that the variety of people and their intentions involved can't defeat the groups ability to solve problems. Too often we use top down (one person in charge), instead of sideways (equal input from a number of people). In a very broad sense I wish the president was more of an Organizer (not a reference to Comm.Org. in Chicago) - someone who's job it was to see that goals that have been agreed on are met.
Anyway... another thread.

Best to your folks M4P - losing my home would be one of the worst things I can imagine, just the threat of it has to be gut wrenching.
Fwiw - I think Wish is just responding out of great frustration - seeing these tragic cycles repeat themselves, whatever the source, can make it seem like there's no real solution, like we're almost powerless to stop them so why not adopt a "if I don't LET it hurt me it can't." It's another way to deal with it.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, June 28, 2012 3:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I would very much like to hear suggestions about how to build better collectives. And I really don't care what these collectives are called, because I don't see much difference between a state government and a state public coalition of free persons assembled voluntarily for the good of the group. Those are just names.

Not to thread jack but this is a very interesting thing to contemplate. I think it's the structure of "group problem solving" that we don't have right, not necessarily the "bad" people. Or, the structure has to be such that the variety of people and their intentions involved can't defeat the groups ability to solve problems. Too often we use top down (one person in charge), instead of sideways (equal input from a number of people). In a very broad sense I wish the president was more of an Organizer (not a reference to Comm.Org. in Chicago) - someone who's job it was to see that goals that have been agreed on are met.
Anyway... another thread.

I don't think this is a thread jack, I think it's a natural place for the conversation to go.

There's a trade-off here. Top-down gets things down more quickly, but group work can incorporate more ideas and be more creative. There are times for each. Personally, I prefer something more top-down when I'm working with a group, because I generally want to get shit done and be on my way. You know, unless the "top" person is a moron.

But I think you're right that it isn't that people are "bad", it's just hard to get anything done as a group. I only have small experience with trying to organize a group of widely varying people, to form an organization that will continue to serve its purpose for the indefinite future. (A college club, actually.) It was shockingly hard. So many complications to handle, different situations to predict and deal with. It made me see how any govt gets to be such a mess.

It's sadly inevitable that things get too messy. I wish there was a rule about getting rid of as many rules as possible. Every 10 or 20 years, we need to throw everything out unless there's a very compelling reason to keep it. Of course, the rules that would spring up around such a rule-clearing-out would be their own tangle.

Oh - the point I mean to make is that all these anti-govt people would learn a lot by trying to form groups that bring disparate people together. See how hard it is to get things done. It would be lovely to 1) find better ways to work together 2) be a little more forgiving when a collaborative (ie govt) process takes time and effort and the results are imperfect.

Quote:
Best to your folks M4P - losing my home would be one of the worst things I can imagine, just the threat of it has to be gut wrenching.

Thankfully, the danger is much lower now. Tuesday really was scary, that fire was moving like nothing in the world could stop it. As of today, it looks almost shut down. (Hoping for no afternoon winds!) Still, a few hundred homes were lost, and the Flying W ranch, which is very sad. Another thing that may seem silly: the people of the Springs, especially my dad, really love that line of mountains. He was talking about it yesterday, and was genuinely grieved about the fire scar, the lack of trees. To him, it'll be like a scar on his own body. It'll be there for the rest of his life.

Quote:
Fwiw - I think Wish is just responding out of great frustration - seeing these tragic cycles repeat themselves, whatever the source, can make it seem like there's no real solution, like we're almost powerless to stop them so why not adopt a "if I don't LET it hurt me it can't." It's another way to deal with it.

I just wish she'd look closer, and see that events are not repeating themselves exactly. Blinding oneself, or numbing oneself, is precisely the wrong thing to do. It guar

HERO

Thursday, June 28, 2012 3:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Katrina, Bush let the black folks drown.

Colorado, Romney said let the white folks burn, since we don't need any more firefighters.

Fixed that for ya!

I note for the record that Obama cut the funding for the planes and helicopters that drop water.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

NIKI2

Thursday, June 28, 2012 4:09 PM

Thing is, if you think about it, Romney's call for fewer firefighters, cops and teachers has a purpose; he wants such things handled by FOR-PROFIT oranizations; as only one example, charter schools. Given his way, everything would be for profit, which is pretty much what the right wants, too. The problem is that for-profit corporations don't necessarily do any better job than government does, and their bottom line is profit. That potentially means short-cutting on things to save money which, as we've seen over and over, ends up being worse than what the government tries to do. That's pretty much what it comes down to. I would assume in the case of fires, that would mean whatever is saved is pro-rated and paid for by the homeowner, or taxed and the for-profit company is paid that way...in which case a fire would raise the cost. That's kind of what insurance does, and we know how effective and willing to abide by their "contract" most insurance companies are.

This is, of course, in part what the government does already, but we can't know how MUCH more it would cost to have all fire departments be for profit. Given the government (city, county, state, fed) doesn't make a profit on providing firefighters, cops, teachers currently, I'm guessing it would cost a lot more to have them all be private organizations whose bottom line is profit.

I'd like to know how any citizen-created organization would work and who would pay for it, and how it would coordinate when it comes to huge disasters such as this. I guess I just see it that, as Anthony so beautifully put it (he IS a peach, isn't he?), as a country we ARE one group and not only interdependent, but abiding by a covenant that one state helps out another, and the fed kicks in its share.

Mal4 is absolutely right in that if there was no federal assistance, things in situations such as this would be FAR worse. The government isn't perfect, by far, but in my opinion it's better than leaving it up to individuals and/or states/cities/counties whose priorities, preparations, and effectiveness would vary from place to place more than they already do now.

Like I said, Jim's son Jeff was trained in firefighting--these are the guys who are sent around to big fires like CO's on a national level. The training is grueling in its demand for physical fitness, and very, very rigorous in its demand for everyone to know how to deal with different problems, how to coordinate, etc. I just don't see any group could be as effective, or how they could handle something without a lot of loss of life among THEMSELVES< not to mention the public.

As to Obama having cut funding for some of this, the pertinent question is what made him do so? Given the Republicans demands for cut, cut, cut, was it a choice between that and something else? So many cuts have been forced by the Republicans' obstinate determination to ONLY cut, that I'm pretty sure that's how the cuts came about. I don't see Obama deciding out of the blue to cut firefighting funding. Just sayin'.

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, June 28, 2012 4:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I note for the record that Obama cut the funding for the planes and helicopters that drop water.

I note for the record that Obama signed an order to add seven heavy air tankers to the Forest Service Fleet, which has been a substantial help because there are areas of these mountains that ground support just can't get to.
Hey look, I have citations: http://www.startribune.com/nation/158424715.html
http://www.collegian.com/2012/06/27/udall-sponsored-bill-signed-by-oba
ma-allowing-colorado-forest-service-access-to-new-air-tankers/(This article also mentions a move to mitigate the effect pine beetles that have turned miles of forest to tinder. Hopefully this means cutting some of that dead wood out, if any of it is still around after all this.)
These seven tankers were provided by the government after a contract with a private company was cancelled last year. (In other words, you're full of shit to say funding was cut. Government funds were used to build government planes.) The newer tankers are actually quite a bit better; older, private air tankers were prone to breaking down, as some of them have this year. I think a few of them crashed last year, which I'd guess was part of the problem with keeping the contract. One crashed this month in Utah, I know. I think its job is now being filled by a Canadian government tanker.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

PIZMOBEACH

Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Thing is, if you think about it, Romney's call for fewer firefighters, cops and teachers has a purpose; he wants such things handled by FOR-PROFIT oranizations; as only one example, charter schools. Given his way, everything would be for profit, which is pretty much what the right wants, too. The problem is that for-profit corporations don't necessarily do any better job than government does, and their bottom line is profit. That potentially means short-cutting on things to save money which, as we've seen over and over, ends up being worse than what the government tries to do. That's pretty much what it comes down to. I would assume in the case of fires, that would mean whatever is saved is pro-rated and paid for by the homeowner, or taxed and the for-profit company is paid that way...in which case a fire would raise the cost. That's kind of what insurance does, and we know how effective and willing to abide by their "contract" most insurance companies are.

Maybe there's a way to make a hybrid?

For-Profit under the control of Gov? Both have their pluses and minuses (just like the one vs many in leadership approaches). Looking at the US Post Office it's easy to imagine that if some of today's smartest and hungriest entrepreneurs were put in charge how much better and more profitable it could be run. With so much more retail now being done online with the associated increase in shipping... there should be a windfall.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

PIZMOBEACH

Thursday, June 28, 2012 7:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

There's a trade-off here. Top-down gets things down more quickly, but group work can incorporate more ideas and be more creative. There are times for each. Personally, I prefer something more top-down when I'm working with a group, because I generally want to get shit done and be on my way. You know, unless the "top" person is a moron.

I think some of the for profit folks would say it's even worse if it's a gov employee running things because they don't have profit motive to move things along - no carrot, all stick. That's where my imagined Resolution for Dummies comes in :)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
But I think you're right that it isn't that people are "bad", it's just hard to get anything done as a group. I only have small experience with trying to organize a group of widely varying people, to form an organization that will continue to serve its purpose for the indefinite future. (A college club, actually.) It was shockingly hard. So many complications to handle, different situations to predict and deal with. It made me see how any govt gets to be such a mess.

It's sadly inevitable that things get too messy. I wish there was a rule about getting rid of as many rules as possible. Every 10 or 20 years, we need to throw everything out unless there's a very compelling reason to keep it. Of course, the rules that would spring up around such a rule-clearing-out would be their own tangle.

I have been on both sides too - the great thing for me was that I was 100% certain (heh) I could do better never thinking I'd have the chance to actually be in that position and then - bang - howdy. It was a great teaching moment. I think Mr. Auraptor would be my primary candidate here for that experience. Someone should ask him at least once in each of his threads going forward, "ok, so what would you do then?" I've tried and it seems to go unnoticed.

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Oh - the point I mean to make is that all these anti-govt people would learn a lot by trying to form groups that bring disparate people together. See how hard it is to get things done. It would be lovely to 1) find better ways to work together 2) be a little more forgiving when a collaborative (ie govt) process takes time and effort and the results are imperfect.

Yes! We should have a class in high school - everyone should have the experience of trying to run a group (herding cats) with their back side on the line.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NIKI2

Thursday, June 28, 2012 9:21 PM

Quote:
Looking at the US Post Office it's easy to imagine that if some of today's smartest and hungriest entrepreneurs were put in charge how much better and more profitable it could be run.

I doubt they could. You DO know the reason the Post Office is in trouble, don't you?

Quote:
In 2006, Congress passed the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act. This law requires the Postal Service to do something that no other business or government agency has to do--pre-fund its FUTURE retiree health care benefits. This is a 75 year liability that has to be paid in 10 years. The Postal Service makes a payment of approximately $5.5 billion on September 30 at the end of every fiscal year to meet this obligation. The Post Office has been paying these benefits the past four years into a trust fund for employees who have not even been born yet. This is the burden that is creating the “financial crisis” for the Post Office.

I'm sure private enterprise could make the Post Office run smoother, and no doubt could lessen some of the expenses, but do you really think they could overcome such an obstacle?

To me, this is the height of insanity and pretty much makes it impossible for ANY organization to run long-term, profit or not.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, June 28, 2012 11:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
These seven tankers were provided by the government after a contract with a private company was cancelled last year. (In other words, you're full of shit to say funding was cut. Government funds were used to build government planes.)

Brava PR!

Pizmo: I have this dream that government would be a required task for everyone. No elections, just random draws, kind of like jury duty. When your number comes up you HAVE to go serve for a full year, possibly two. You get paid a more than a living wage, so it's a bit of a windfall for poor folks and a bit of a hit for the wealthy. There would be no professional politicians, no PACs, no lobbyists. All of us would bear responsibility for running this country and figuring out just how hard it is to, say, build a reliable fire department.

1KIKI

Friday, June 29, 2012 2:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Looking at the US Post Office it's easy to imagine that if some of today's smartest and hungriest entrepreneurs were put in charge how much better and more profitable it could be run. With so much more retail now being done online with the associated increase in shipping... there should be a windfall.

Yanno, if one more completely ignorant right-wing talking-point comes out of your brain I think it will implode from the vacuum.

The Post Office is in the state it's in b/c the right-wing Congress hobbled it with extra expenses no other business OR government agency has to support, then hobbled its ability to stabilize its finances by forbidding it from making a profit.

1KIKI

Friday, June 29, 2012 2:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

I think some of the for profit folks would say it's even worse if it's a gov employee running things because they don't have profit motive to move things along - no carrot, all stick. That's where my imagined Resolution for Dummies comes in :)

Profit is not a way to take care of things that are necessary. It's a way to make things that are below the single-item purchase-price threshold for most individuals. It's far easier to sell lipstick for a couple of dollars to many than it is to sell steel at 10X the unit price. That makes it far more profitable to make lipstick than it is to make steel.

And profit isn't a way to make things BETTER - it's a way to make them CHEAPER. But not SO cheap that people won't buy it - unless it's a necessity or you have a monopoly, in which case, you can do what you want. Grease, salt and pink slime, anyone? You need to eat SOMEthing and it's cheap!

1KIKI

Friday, June 29, 2012 3:01 AM

"I only have small experience with trying to organize a group of widely varying people, to form an organization that will continue to serve its purpose for the indefinite future. (A college club, actually.) It was shockingly hard."

The most successful movements I've seen are single-item movements that many different people crystallize on.

What happened to 'the disappear'? Mubarek must go. Britain out of Ireland ... Britain out of India ... Give me Liberty or give me death.

Once those goals are met, it gets far far more complicated to go forward on the host of other items. That's why the bazzilion opposition candidates with a large overall movement behind them in Egypt lost out to a small minority of the Muslim Brotherhood. The people of Tahrir Square and others had got that one thing done and hadn’t figured out yet how to move forward as a group on other things. The Brotherhood (being tolerated as a religious opposition in a way a socialist opposition wouldn't have been) had been around longer and was simply was more cohesive.

FWIW I've been lucky enough to be in three organizations (spark one by speaking up, join one as a founding part of the common group, and be lucky enough to be in the third) that seemed to come together almost by magic. They were EXTREMELY efficient, fruitful, unified and organized for quite some time. There is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

1KIKI

Friday, June 29, 2012 3:22 AM

But as I think about it Mal4Prez - did you learn anything from your efforts besides that it was hard?

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, June 29, 2012 4:36 AM

I grok ya, Mal4 - Anarchists have a pretty strong sense of civic responsibility, they kinda have to cause otherwise they'd be pretty damn hypocritical (and yeah, a lot of em are, sure) - and *I* am of the opinion that ANY Fire Department or equipment not currently engaged, should be deployed on something like this, whether private, government, military or what have you...

There's just no HUMANE excuse not to go all-hands when one has the ability, skills and equipment to do so in a case like this, and having those skills and equipment at hand is *WHY* we have fire departments, et cetera.

We had a smallish one here in Ann Arbor which thankfully was quickly stomped, but knocked out power to 6,000 people, which was a double misery cause of record temps here (I am hiding under my wheezing, suffering air conditioner right now) and causes me a lotta concern about potential fire hazards of 4th of july fireworks - this place is up to code, barely, but these are old buildings and although not explicitly my job, I do have a fallback plan and some volunteers to pin down a fire if need be till the VFD gets over here with the big hoses.

But politics in a situation like that ?
Always stuck me as lunacy - shit, we OUGHT to have a couple heavy tankers in the air already, I mean a KC130 can hold how much liquid, and mounting even a halfass sprayer shouldn't take that bloody long!

-Frem

WISHIMAY

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

We had a smallish one here in Ann Arbor which thankfully was quickly stomped, but knocked out power to 6,000 people, which was a double misery cause of record temps here (I am hiding under my wheezing, suffering air conditioner right now) and causes me a lotta concern about potential fire hazards of 4th of july fireworks - this place is up to code, barely, but these are old buildings and although not explicitly my job, I do have a fallback plan and some volunteers to pin down a fire if need be till the VFD gets over here with the big hoses.

Always stuck me as lunacy - shit, we OUGHT to have a couple heavy tankers in the air already, I mean a KC130 can hold how much liquid, and mounting even a halfass sprayer shouldn't take that bloody long!

-Frem

There's gonna be a hellova lot more fires before this season ends... I'm thinking of heading towards water this Fourth myself. Let the fools fry themselves...

I'd love to know stats on how many people have successfully fought off a fire in one of these big ones, and if there are current methods of building and landscaping to assist, 'cause I saw the pics today and you can tell where a lot of people tried to fight it off and lost...

The thing about mounting sprayers is partially what I'm talking about, I think more better could be, should be, done, bigger, better, faster.... and if it's not, why bother fighting it at all? Let's just order some more battleships and billion dollar stealth jets. That'll fix it...
One house on fire can be fought. A moving wall of flames with 50 mph winds??That's crazy talk....

And Mal4prez, You ask too many damn questions for me to respond and still have time for things like sleep. Some of you people need to learn the subtle art of saying the stuff you wanna say without taking ALL damn day.... I don't even read posts over a few paragraphs. I have things to DO.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
And Mal4prez, You ask too many damn questions for me to respond and still have time for things like sleep. Some of you people need to learn the subtle art of saying the stuff you wanna say without taking ALL damn day.... I don't even read posts over a few paragraphs. I have things to DO.

Wishy dear, that's exactly why I made it easy for you:

1. You do understand that this thread is not about a single building, right?
2. In the general case and not just for you specifically, please explain how letting a fire grow and spread freely is better for the safety and welfare of everyone in a community.
3. If, as you say, the firefighters in CO Springs have been completely ineffective, how do you explain that the city is not currently on fire?
4. What do you see as the difference between "civilian organizations" and local govt.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:41 AM

Furthemore (I put this is a different post so you can return to it after you've had your nap), if you don't understand these questions, or if you wish to be polite and respectful person, or if - heaven forbid - you just want to make communication be open and successful, you could go back and read my posts. You'll note they started short and got longer when I saw that you weren't understanding or replying to what I wrote. I figured that more explanation was needed.

Now I see that you just don't want to engage in actual two-way communication. Check. If nothing else, I am getting to know you much much better.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:47 AM

Finally, I'll make this simple. My previous two posts were my subtle way of suggesting that you seem to be full of shit. I think you don't read or reply to my posts because you are incapable of addressing my questions.

If I'm reading you right, you will now claim to be horribly offended and overwrought and you'll swear off continuing any interaction with me yada yada yada etc etc. (And how convenient is that for question #1-4 avoidance!) It's the common thing that righties around here do, and while you may not have an official "R" by your name, you're sure walking like a duck.

I do hope you surprise me. Neigh instead of quack.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, June 29, 2012 6:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
But as I think about it Mal4Prez - did you learn anything from your efforts besides that it was hard?

I did, and I tried to summarize it above but it's hard to explain succinctly. I'll have to be long-winded again. (Bite me Wishimay

) I learned that at first sight, the task your organization is facing may seems simple, but the more you dig the more you realize that all those twisty-turny complications are actually necessary. My experience: a college student dance group that was growing insanely, in four years it went from 5-6 too a few hundred members. The performance had become a nearly unbearable 3 hour show with 25 different dances because everyone wanted to do their own piece. And a majority of the pieces were simply horrible. The poor audience!

The founder of the group (not me, and frankly she was a prime offender as far as horrible dances) was soon to leave the school. Other people would be making decisions soon, and it wouldn't be clear who was top dog. So we needed guidelines as to who set the rules, who got to choreograph, how auditions were run etc...

The challenge was to maintain what was good about the group: the freedom of opportunity. ANYBODY could be involved, so some weirdo math major could sign up and put a finished piece on stage with costumes and lights. The dances ranged from bad funk (a LOT of that *shakes head*) to jazz, ballet, modern, martial arts, and undefinable. As a place open to exploration, it was great. We wanted to keep that alive so no faction, like my own modern dance group, could took over and drown out the rest.

But we also didn't want this thing to crumble under its own weight, so that every student who'd seen a music video would stage yet another unbearably bad MTV-wanna-be-but-I-ain-t-got-no-abilities dance. All members agreed that we needed some encouragement to grow and learn and improve, not just wiggle on stage (not good wiggling, but the shield your eyes kind) for the frat boys in the audience.

I think the committee did all right, but it took several meetings and much debate over exact language. The final document was a bit of a nightmare on first read. But it had to be, to cover the necessary grounds.

That's what I learned. When I see an official document or policy that seems way too complicated, I have to remind myself that the drafters likely started with something simple, but due to real life they had to keep adding and adding until their meaning was fully spelled out. So it's possibly worth my time to try and figure out all those complications, so I can understand the full situation.

Hey, that's kind of like my posts in this thread, if only folks would bother to read them... (Oh yeah I'm having fun with this!)

MAL4PREZ

Friday, June 29, 2012 6:11 AM

oops

1KIKI

Friday, June 29, 2012 6:19 AM

"... due to real life they had to keep adding and adding until their meaning was fully spelled out. So it's possibly worth my time to try and figure out all those complications, so I can understand the full situation."

Well, thanks for repeating. I appreciate it. It does seem to roughly mirror my own experience and observations - what distinguishes a single-issue movement for example from a fully fledged political party.

1KIKI

Friday, June 29, 2012 6:43 AM

Prisons, Privatization, Patronage

Over the past few days, The New York Times has published several terrifying reports about New Jersey’s system of halfway houses — privately run adjuncts to the regular system of prisons. The series is a model of investigative reporting, which everyone should read. ( http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/nyregion/in-new-jersey-halfway-house
s-escapees-stream-out-as-a-penal-business-thrives.html?_r=3) But it should also be seen in context. The horrors described are part of a broader pattern in which essential functions of government are being both privatized and degraded.

First of all, about those halfway houses: In 2010, Chris Christie, the state’s governor — who has close personal ties to Community Education Centers, the largest operator of these facilities, and who once worked as a lobbyist for the firm — described the company’s operations as “representing the very best of the human spirit.” But The Times’s reports instead portray something closer to hell on earth — an understaffed, poorly run system, with a demoralized work force, from which the most dangerous individuals often escape to wreak havoc, while relatively mild offenders face terror and abuse at the hands of other inmates.

It’s a terrible story. But, as I said, you really need to see it in the broader context of a nationwide drive on the part of America’s right to privatize government functions, very much including the operation of prisons. What’s behind this drive?

You might be tempted to say that it reflects conservative belief in the magic of the marketplace, in the superiority of free-market competition over government planning. And that’s certainly the way right-wing politicians like to frame the issue.

But if you think about it even for a minute, you realize that the one thing the companies that make up the prison-industrial complex — companies like Community Education or the private-prison giant Corrections Corporation of America — are definitely not doing is competing in a free market. They are, instead, living off government contracts. There isn’t any market here, and there is, therefore, no reason to expect any magical gains in efficiency.

And, sure enough, despite many promises that prison privatization will lead to big cost savings, such savings — as a comprehensive study by the Bureau of Justice Assistance, part of the U.S. Department of Justice, concluded — “have simply not materialized.” To the extent that private prison operators do manage to save money, they do so through “reductions in staffing patterns, fringe benefits, and other labor-related costs.”

So let’s see: Privatized prisons save money by employing fewer guards and other workers, and by paying them badly. And then we get horror stories about how these prisons are run. What a surprise!

So what’s really behind the drive to privatize prisons, and just about everything else?

One answer is that privatization can serve as a stealth form of government borrowing, in which governments avoid recording upfront expenses (or even raise money by selling existing facilities) while raising their long-run costs in ways taxpayers can’t see. We hear a lot about the hidden debts that states have incurred in the form of pension liabilities; we don’t hear much about the hidden debts now being accumulated in the form of long-term contracts with private companies hired to operate prisons, schools and more.

Another answer is that privatization is a way of getting rid of public employees, who do have a habit of unionizing and tend to lean Democratic in any case.

But the main answer, surely, is to follow the money. Never mind what privatization does or doesn’t do to state budgets; think instead of what it does for both the campaign coffers and the personal finances of politicians and their friends. As more and more government functions get privatized, states become pay-to-play paradises, in which both political contributions and contracts for friends and relatives become a quid pro quo for getting government business. Are the corporations capturi

BYTEMITE

Friday, June 29, 2012 6:53 AM

Yeah, it's ugly.

Some of the privatized groups trying to get into managing prisons and schools are groups like blackwater, and then you have some serious bad mojo.

1KIKI

Friday, June 29, 2012 7:23 AM

As Escapees Stream Out, a Penal Business Thrives
By SAM DOLNICK

selected excerpts

After decades of tough criminal justice policies, states have been grappling with crowded prisons that are straining budgets. In response to those pressures, New Jersey has become a leader in a national movement to save money by diverting inmates to a new kind of privately run halfway house. At the heart of the system is a company with deep connections to politicians of both parties, most notably Gov. Chris Christie. Mr. Christie, a Republican who took office in January 2010, has for years championed the company that plays a principal role in the New Jersey system, Community Education Centers.

Mr. Christie himself was registered as a lobbyist for the company in 2000 and 2001 when he was a private lawyer, according to disclosure reports that his law firm filed with the state. In early 2010, he hired the son-in-law of Community Education’s chief executive as an assistant in the governor’s office, according to state personnel records.

And as United States attorney for New Jersey and then governor, Mr. Christie has often visited the company’s halfway houses and praised its work. The company has highlighted those visits in its publicity material.

“Places like this are to be celebrated,” Mr. Christie said in a 2010 speech ... “A spotlight should be put on them as representing the very best of the human spirit,” he said. “Because as you walk through here, as I’ve done many times, what you see right before your very eyes are miracles happening.”

Community Education said it had developed a highly successful model of “community corrections” that had improved the lives of hundreds of thousands of inmates across the country. It said the rate of escapes at its halfway houses in New Jersey was “staggeringly low,” given the many people who go through the system. April, eight months after The Times undertook its investigation.

.
.
.

Many of these halfway houses are as big as prisons, with several hundred beds ... New Jersey officials have called these large facilities an innovative example of privatization and have promoted the approach all the way to the Obama White House. (But) Perhaps the most unsettling sign of the chaos within is inmates’ ease in getting out.

While these halfway houses often resemble traditional correctional institutions, they have much less security. There are no correction officers, and workers are not allowed to restrain inmates who try to leave or to locate those who do not come back from work release, the most common form of escape. The halfway houses’ only recourse is to alert the authorities.

And so the inmates flee in a steady stream: 46 last September, 39 in October, 40 in November, 38 in December, state records show.

Assemblyman Sean T. Kean, a Republican, said of the escapes, “It’s not really a problem.” “It’s a cheaper way of doing business,” he said of the system, “so that’s why it behooves us to use that option.”

The financial incentive is also clear. The state spends about $125 to $150 a day to house an inmate in a prison. The corrections, parole and other government agencies in New Jersey pay roughly $60 to $75 per inmate per day to operators of halfway houses, including Community Education, based in West Caldwell, N.J.

But as the system has grown, the percentage of New Jersey inmates convicted of violent crimes but lodged in halfway houses has been rising, to 21 percent now from 12 percent in 2006, according to state statistics. Their ranks currently include dozens of people serving time for murder, and hundreds convicted of armed robbery, assault or weapons possession — some of whom escaped.

At the same time, the state acknowledges that it has never examined whether the system helps inmates. Last year, the Christie administration commissioned a three-year study. Community Education has financed its own research that it says shows the success of its programs.

Last year, the New Jersey comptroller, Matthew Boxer, released an audit ... “As a state, we have done a p

PIZMOBEACH

Friday, June 29, 2012 1:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Looking at the US Post Office it's easy to imagine that if some of today's smartest and hungriest entrepreneurs were put in charge how much better and more profitable it could be run. With so much more retail now being done online with the associated increase in shipping... there should be a windfall.

Yanno, if one more completely ignorant right-wing talking-point comes out of your brain I think it will implode from the vacuum.

Do you think insulting people makes you some how more right? Or do you just enjoy it?

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
The Post Office is in the state it's in b/c the right-wing Congress hobbled it with extra expenses no other business OR government agency has to support, then hobbled its ability to stabilize its finances by forbidding it from making a profit.

Right. Let's review: "forbidding it from making a profit" = failure. Does that give you any ideas on what we should try to fix it?

This may come as a shock to you but not all Profit is bad. There are even Democrats and very left leaning people who wake up every day and pursue Profit with a great deal of passion. Your favorite restaurant, artists (they don't just give their art away), the guy who used to deliver your paper, even the company that makes those all-weather pointy hats you favor - they all need to be profitable. It's not an ugly thing except in extremes, kind of like social behavior.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

1KIKI

Friday, June 29, 2012 1:46 PM

The problem w/ the PO, if you think about it for half a second, which you obviously haven't, is that if it's unable to collect a bit more here and there it never can build up a reserve for the unexpected. It ALWAYS ends up either at par (not often) or behind (most of the time, while it's waiting for a review to allow it to raise its rates just enough to catch up to the past). Overall, it calculates to being behind. It doesn't matter if you call it profit or a reserve, a prudent operating BUSINESS cushion is a good thing.

But capitalist profit? Where people who have capital get personally paid for NO OTHER REASON THAN having capital, at every turn of the cycle ... not a good thing.

If you REALLY REALLY want people to be getting the full value if their work - you do, don't you? - you can't allow that kind of profit.

M52NICKERSON

Friday, June 29, 2012 2:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:Always stuck me as lunacy - shit, we OUGHT to have a couple heavy tankers in the air already, I mean a KC130 can hold how much liquid, and mounting even a halfass sprayer shouldn't take that bloody long!
-Frem

Slightly less that 7,000 gallons, fully loaded out and provided it is a KC-130J.

Unfortunatly that is very letting when fighting fires. Larger water plants have high service pumps in excess of 5,000 gpm specificly to provide enough water to firefighters to fight fires within small cities.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

DEVERSE

Friday, June 29, 2012 4:35 PM

Quote:
Slightly less that 7,000 gallons, fully loaded out and provided it is a KC-130J.
Unfortunatly that is very letting when fighting fires. Larger water plants have high service pumps in excess of 5,000 gpm specificly to provide enough water to firefighters to fight fires within small cities.
Quote:

Had to comment here.
Largest water bomber in the world (Martin Mars) is here in my country and it has a capacity of just over 7000 US gallons. It is currently deployed in California.
While the capacity of a C-130J or a Super Herc is quite large, it isn't a simple matter of a big tank and dumping it. The fire fighting package that would need to be in the aircraft limits these two aircraft to about 3000 US gallons fire fighting capacity.

Two of my provinces (not Canadian government, but provincial government) Convair 580A air tankers and one Turbo Commander birddog aircraft are in Colorado. Convairs carry about 2200 US gallons. The Canadair CL-215 we have are 1700 US gal and the Canso's are 800 US gal but were not sent as they are in use here (at 53 forest fires, 11 still out of control).

My source - my 34 years as a fire fighter (structural, forestry and shipboard) and 18 years as the Operational Fire Commissioner for my province.

Supposed to be 10 degrees cooler and a bit of rain in Colorado today. See there has been a death (hopefully no more will occur and people will listen to the evac notices).

Oh let the sun beat down upon my face
With stars to fill my dream
I am a traveler of both time and space
To be where I have been

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WISHIMAY

Friday, June 29, 2012 4:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

Furthemore (I put this is a different post so you can return to it after you've had your nap), if you don't understand these questions, or if you wish to be polite and respectful person, or if - heaven forbid - you just want to make communication be open and successful, you could go back and read my posts. You'll note they started short and got longer when I saw that you weren't understanding or replying to what I wrote. I figured that more explanation was needed.

Now I see that you just don't want to engage in actual two-way communication. Check. If nothing else, I am getting to know you much much better.

Screw you AND the condescending horse you rode in on. I don't generally HAVE conversations with idiots who use natural disasters to get on their high horse and pick on a political point of view, and now I know why...

I was using the "one building" thing as a hypothetical to posit the morality of asking people to risk their lives to save your material shit. I'm guessin you MISSED THAT. One does when they talk that damn much. Also, I wasn't home all day yesterday, and I certainly wasn't even thinking about you or this thread, then when I do get a minute to sit down, I see a novels worth.

This place is fun, but I'm not gonna waste all day here. Maybe you oughta go help the people who saved yer parents precious junk instead of sitting here and snarking at people who don't see things your way.

I'm done with this thread...

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, June 29, 2012 4:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DEVERSE:
Largest water bomber in the world (Martin Mars) is here in my country and it has a capacity of just over 7000 US gallons. It is currently deployed in California.
Two of my provinces (not Canadian government, but provincial government) Convair 580A air tankers and one Turbo Commander birddog aircraft are in Colorado.

Thanks, provincial Canadian government

Quote:
See there has been a death (hopefully no more will occur and people will listen to the evac notices).

Yeah, there was an old woman who wouldn't leave her house in the first few days of the High Park fire, here. She was presumed dead and has recently been confirmed dead.
Also, the fire station in my town was flying their flag at half-mast. I hope that doesn't mean any firefighters died

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
If I'm reading you right, you will now claim to be horribly offended and overwrought and you'll swear off continuing any interaction with me yada yada yada etc etc. (And how convenient is that for question #1-4 avoidance!)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Screw you AND the condescending horse you rode in on. I don't generally HAVE conversations with idiots who use natural disasters to get on their high horse and pick on a political point of view, and now I know why...
I'm done with this thread

...Wow.

Hey mal4, you're psychic!

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Screw you AND the condescending horse you rode in on. I don't generally HAVE conversations with idiots who use natural disasters to get on their high horse and pick on a political point of view, and now I know why...

I was using the "one building" thing as a hypothetical to posit the morality of asking people to risk their lives to save your material shit. I'm guessin you MISSED THAT. One does when they talk that damn much. Also, I wasn't home all day yesterday, and I certainly wasn't even thinking about you or this thread, then when I do get a minute to sit down, I see a novels worth.

This place is fun, but I'm not gonna waste all day here. Maybe you oughta go help the people who saved yer parents precious junk instead of sitting here and snarking at people who don't see things your way.

I'm done with this thread...

Hadn't noticed that you got started on it, seeing as you kept replying to my posts without actually reading them. And you wonder why the communication didn't work...

I see you still didn't address my points, including the one specifically stating that my argument, and this thread, has never been about one single house. Oh yeah, if you actually read the posts rather than saying your own thing over and over again without listening to anyone else, you might have got that.

It says that a lot that you think I'm condescending just because I would like a TWO-WAY conversation out of you. Since you can't do that, it really is best that you go your own way. But thank you for playing.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
If I'm reading you right, you will now claim to be horribly offended and overwrought and you'll swear off continuing any interaction with me yada yada yada etc etc. (And how convenient is that for question #1-4 avoidance!)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Screw you AND the condescending horse you rode in on. I don't generally HAVE conversations with idiots who use natural disasters to get on their high horse and pick on a political point of view, and now I know why...
I'm done with this thread

...Wow.

Hey mal4, you're psychic!

Not the first RA (if that''s the term for it) mindset I've encountered, here or in real life. So predictable.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:19 PM

Regarding the death in CO Springs: I kind of expect that there might be more. When that fire turned on Tuesday there were only a few hours to evacuate thousands of people, in the middle of Armeggedon. I was amazed that they carried it off so well, but I've been wondering how many people didn't leave their homes and got caught in it. Almost 350 houses gone, most in one single night. It would be astounding if there's only this one death.

Definitely yay for the weather change. Those people really need the break!

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, June 29, 2012 11:46 PM

Thanks for the info on the KC130 and C130 folks - but it did occur to me just HOW one could make use of a C130 in a hurry this way...
You know them plastic water barrels they use on highways ?
Load em up on C130, cap em off and have a bunch of troops roll em out the back, maybe ?
Or here's another thought, maybe some of those fekkin police forces with vehicle mounted water cannon could put the bloody things to a better use than abusing protestors ?

Again, I'm of the opinion that a spreading fire trumps all politics, and should be an all-hands maximum effort thing.
And untrained civvies with no gear can still be handed shovels to grub out firebreaks, mind.

We had another fire a couple miles from here, again thankfully stomped before it went anywhere - housefire caused by a box fans electrical motor blowing out in a blaze of sparks, yikes, and the heat around here is hideous, especially for folks not used to it... worse for me cause all them prosthetics are heavy and hot, and I gotta pull a full shift tonite, argh.

On that note, I ain't payin no damn $190.00USD for a freakin Kilt...
(screw you utilikilt, ya greedy bastards)
Anyone know where I could get a decent work kilt for a rational price ?

-F

M52NICKERSON

Saturday, June 30, 2012 12:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Thanks for the info on the KC130 and C130 folks - but it did occur to me just HOW one could make use of a C130 in a hurry this way...
You know them plastic water barrels they use on highways ?
Load em up on C130, cap em off and have a bunch of troops roll em out the back, maybe ?
Or here's another thought, maybe some of those fekkin police forces with vehicle mounted water cannon could put the bloody things to a better use than abusing protestors ?

Again, I'm of the opinion that a spreading fire trumps all politics, and should be an all-hands maximum effort thing.
And untrained civvies with no gear can still be handed shovels to grub out firebreaks, mind.

We had another fire a couple miles from here, again thankfully stomped before it went anywhere - housefire caused by a box fans electrical motor blowing out in a blaze of sparks, yikes, and the heat around here is hideous, especially for folks not used to it... worse for me cause all them prosthetics are heavy and hot, and I gotta pull a full shift tonite, argh.

On that note, I ain't payin no damn $190.00USD for a freakin Kilt...
(screw you utilikilt, ya greedy bastards)
Anyone know where I could get a decent work kilt for a rational price ?

-F

The problem with the barrel idea is that it is not until the barrels hit the ground that they will break open, making the ground wet. That will not stop the fire above ground level.

The problems with the fires they are facing is more size them man power. The one that has destroyed the most homes is something like 7 miles long and 4 miles deep. In other words fucking huge. Plus depending on the area a creating a fire break takes more than just a shove. You will need heavy equipment to remove trees.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, June 30, 2012 12:43 AM

Oh I take your point, just pitchin out ideas and whatnot, is all.
As for heavy equipment, seriously, show me a combat engineer who DIDN'T want to be unleashed on a wildfire or the highway system, them guys are crazeeeee.
But yanno, in a good kinda way.

-F

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, June 30, 2012 2:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
The problem w/ the PO, if you think about it for half a second, which you obviously haven't, is that if it's unable to collect a bit more here and there it never can build up a reserve for the unexpected. It ALWAYS ends up either at par (not often) or behind (most of the time, while it's waiting for a review to allow it to raise its rates just enough to catch up to the past). Overall, it calculates to being behind. It doesn't matter if you call it profit or a reserve, a prudent operating BUSINESS cushion is a good thing.

But capitalist profit? Where people who have capital get personally paid for NO OTHER REASON THAN having capital, at every turn of the cycle ... not a good thing.

If you REALLY REALLY want people to be getting the full value if their work - you do, don't you? - you can't allow that kind of profit.

And you have obviously only thought about it for half a second. You have a lack of imagination, you embody the Can't Do spirit, which funny enough, is the hallmark of a lot of gov agencies. That's why I suggested entrepreneurs (does that word scare or anger you?).

Here's a list of some of the kinds of problem solvers that are out there:

http://www.fastcompany.com/most-innovative-companies/2012/full-list

They would love the challenge, they'd probably line up to "fix" the post office, and they would either go around or find a way to change the funding issues. Creative people find solutions, they don't stop at the first road block, they enjoy the challenge.

Besides fixing the Post Office, I'd love to hear what you think my other "ignorant right wing" ideas are. I don't think I've even had a single one. Maybe you have confused me for someone else?

I'd also like to hear you answer to my earlier question:

"Do you think insulting people some how makes you more right?" I know you hate it when AU doesn't answer direct questions, so I'm sure you'll be happy to answer this one.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

ANTHONYT

Saturday, June 30, 2012 3:51 PM

Hello Frem,

What size of kilt do you wear?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 30, 2012 4:02 PM

Quote:
They would love the challenge, they'd probably line up to "fix" the post office, and they would either go around or find a way to change the funding issues. Creative people find solutions, they don't stop at the first road block, they enjoy the challenge.

PIZMO, have you even THOUGHT about the Post Office, or for one second tried to figure out the reality of their situation?

So there I was at the PO, and I needed to make a photocopy. Had to run a couple of stores down to find one, and finally got around to asking the PO clerk Say, have you ever thought of putting a photocopier in here? Or fax? The answer was We are FORBIDDEN to do that. Same with a number of other nifty services the PO might offer... internet access, packaging as a service, and so forth. It's hard... impossible, really... to come up with nifty solutions if you're prevented by law from implementing them. Because the PO - that weird public-private hybrid - is not supposed to be actually competing with Kinkos and UPS and FedEx for god's sake. Heaven forfend. They might actually out-compete the competition. Nope, the PO is meant to be a money-loser... to have to live on the dregs that the "real" companies find unprofitable.

It is for that same reason that the public option was eliminated from our health-care plan. Not because it might be inefficient, but because it might be TOO successful. Might actually.. yanno... force the health insurance to do something for their money other than screw their customers.

ANTHONYT

Saturday, June 30, 2012 4:14 PM

Hello,

It's very irritating to see otherwise intelligent and thoughtful people accuse one another of not thinking. "If you would bother to think for a second" and "have you even bothered to think" and all their cousins are unfriendly sentiments.

I am sure a thoughtful person is aware of the fact that the Post Office operates under limitations so as not to compete very well with private business.

I am sure a thoughtful person is aware that if private business was introduced into the Post Office, this would be less of a concern and allow competitive innovations.

I am sure a thoughtful person is aware that privatization introduces its own pitfalls and spectres which would have to be navigated to ensure an equitable situation.

I am sure a thoughtful person is aware that both positions offer their own problems.

So rather than starting every statement with a suggestion that the opponent is a thoughtless dumbkopf, perhaps we could simply present our arguments and let the merit of what we say shine through.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 30, 2012 4:27 PM

WISHIMAY

Quote:
There will still be natural disasters WITH or WITHOUT government. I'd rather say "Ta hell with Gov't, I'll pay MY insurance and look after me n' mine, you stay on yer side of the line!" than have them be all up in my business AND do nothing in the face of disasters...which, judging by the track record- they are pretty damn good at...

There have always been large burn-offs, and most likely always will be. Harsh truths of nature...I've pretty much built half this place with my own two hands, but if it were ta burn....So what??? I'm not gonna stand around and whine that no one helped me out, I'm gonna get my ass up and KEEP GOING...that's what. Do what's best for me and mine NO MATTER WHAT.

Ah, I see where this whole idiotic argument started. Forgive me if I don't re-read the entire thread and then wind up repeating some points.

There is more going on with forest fire than YOUR house, or even a bunch of houses. Forests, by themselves, are an essential public good. Aside from turning carbon dioxide into wood (climate regulation is an essential public good) and releasing oxygen from water (oxygen is an essential public good), they provide a habitat for a number of species (biodiversity is an essential public good) and regulate stream flow (surface water is an essential public good) and aquifer recharge (ground water is an essential public good). That's not counting the pleasure they bring to outdoor recreation and the lumber they provide.

So I see that your capacity to imagine a scope of any situation which is immediately beyond "your and yours" is rather limited. Insurance won't cover these costs.

As far as "large burnoffs" always occurring, the sad fact is that the burnoffs now are record sizes, not just here but around the world due to global climate shift. Also, in this nation, due to a previous policy of stamping out fires as soon as possible. The policy ended in 1983, as I recall, but the forests are now chock-o-block full of fuel. Where there used to be 50-100 trees per acre, there are now as much as 600. Thanks to previous policies and global climate shift, the forests need active management. Since forest management is not ever likely to produce a profit, private companies will never make the investment, no matter how high the cost of failure or how large the benefit of success.

ANTHONYT

Saturday, June 30, 2012 4:33 PM

Quote:
the forests need active management.

Hello,

I strongly agree with this. I think if a sufficient investment was made before the fires started, then we'd be in a better position to contain the fires when they happened or even to largely prevent them.

Sadly, as you pointed out, this is not seen as a money-maker. This is doubly unfortunate when you consider how many assets are used up or lost in these fires. Ounce of prevention vs pound of cure.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, June 30, 2012 5:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
They would love the challenge, they'd probably line up to "fix" the post office, and they would either go around or find a way to change the funding issues. Creative people find solutions, they don't stop at the first road block, they enjoy the challenge.
PIZMO, have you even THOUGHT about the Post Office, or for one second tried to figure out the reality of their situation?

So there I was at the PO, and I needed to make a photocopy. Had to run a couple of stores down to find one, and finally got around to asking the PO clerk Say, have you ever thought of putting a photocopier in here? Or fax? The answer was We are FORBIDDEN to do that. Same with a number of other nifty services the PO might offer... internet access, packaging as a service, and so forth. It's hard... impossible, really... to come up with nifty solutions if you're prevented by law from implementing them. Because the PO - that weird public-private hybrid - is not supposed to be actually competing with Kinkos and UPS and FedEx for god's sake. Heaven forfend. They might actually out-compete the competition. Nope, the PO is meant to be a money-loser... to have to live on the dregs that the "real" companies find unprofitable.

It is for that same reason that the public option was eliminated from our health-care plan. Not because it might be inefficient, but because it might be TOO successful. Might actually.. yanno... force the health insurance to do something for their money other than screw their customers.

I'm a shameless, true believer in the creative mind, the Problem Solvers - these are my heroes - I'll take whatever blame you want to give me for that.
To me, your post only outlines the problems, a place to start, not stop. To throw up your hands is to say, "Can't make it go further." I know, that's a quote from a television show, but I've seen the benefits. When I schlepped as a photo assistant (some grip) our mantra was, "there's alway a solution." Lose a tripod? Make a tripod. Again I know, can't fix the PO with duct tape (well, maybe), but that same attitude I learned then has been a great ally ever since and in much more important circumstances. So go ahead, say "It" can't be done, fine.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

1KIKI

Saturday, June 30, 2012 5:50 PM

"Do you think insulting people some how makes you more right?"

No, I just enjoy it. I enjoy irritating the people who irritate me. And unlike little Rappy, I'll actually address the questions with real facts and logic. It's my facts and my arguments that make me more right. But if you skip past both I can see how that might be lost on you.

"... to throw up your hands is to say, "Can't make it go further.""

There's a difference between saying "can't" and "by law forbidden to". Signy and myself are both saying the PO is FORBIDDEN/ CONSTRAINED from running in new ways that makes sense and from doing new things that are useful. Don't blame the PO for lack of vision or initiative. Blame the roadblocks that are specifically put in front of the PO, and the hobbles specifically placed on it.

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, June 30, 2012 5:58 PM

Hey gang,

Is there perhaps a generational divide in this (and other) discussions on the board? 50-somethings "condescending" to 20-somethings? I know I come up against that wall here, thinking to myself "Oh, well, they're just kids," and walking away from a conflict. Now, of course, I've gotten into plenty of wrangles with my fellow grown ups, to be sure. Just wondering if the older, wiser participants might consider imagining the younger posters as nephews/nieces or beloved students and I wonder if the younger folk wouldn't get further in these conflicts if they recognized that the argument is naturally gonna be a little slanted against them owing to simple inexperience and other developmental issues. Is that too utopian of me?

Having spent some time in and around tribal cultures, I find a lot of value in gerentocracy as a model of governance (within a close-nit small community such as the RWED ). I'm really sorry if that sounds "condescending" to the youngsters hereabout, but in a healthy community shouldn't that have some bearing??? Just felt the need to point out what certainly looks like an elephant in the chatroom.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

ANTHONYT

Saturday, June 30, 2012 6:10 PM

Quote:
No, I just enjoy it. I enjoy irritating the people who irritate me. And unlike little Rappy, I'll actually address the questions with real facts and logic. It's my facts and my arguments that make me more right. But if you skip past both I can see how that might be lost on you.

Hello,

I think this is the wrong approach. Once you incense someone, they are less likely to consider what you are saying. This prevents a subject from being as thoughtfully discussed as it might be otherwise. If the object of these discussions is to either A) educate or B) examine, then insults are self defeating. Insults are only useful if the object is to infuriate someone or make them feel bad. (Which is perhaps a sign that the benign portion of a conversation is at an end.)

Perhaps most importantly, if you enjoy having your own assumptions challenged, insulting someone is counter-productive. It invariably reduces the effectiveness of their analysis by contaminating their rational thought processes with the desire to throttle you.

I try to reserve insults for people or conversations that are no longer useful or productive in any way. Perhaps you feel this thread or your partner in these discussions fits that mold?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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