Israel Vs. Palestine: Evil Scorecard

POSTED BY: pizmobeach
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 1, 2025 19:27
VIEWED: 9333
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PIZMOBEACH

Friday, January 9, 2009 8:18 PM

I hope the thread title doesn't sound like I'm trivializing this conflict - not at all, just trying to start a reasonably factual time line for the recent aggressions and to log actions by either side as they happen.

My recent stance was, "they're both doing bad things," and while that still holds, it does appear from the most recent reports that Israel is taking the lead in doing the most heinous acts, even "War Crimes." At least imho.

Staring with this article in the NYTimes that tries to describe the events that lead to the end of the 6 month Egypt brokered cease fire from June of last year:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/world/middleeast/15gaza.html?_r=1

There's a lot of finger pointing and outside pressures in the article (Hamas versus Fatah), neither side is innocent, there are a number of players and there are a number of ways to justify recent actions from each side.

In the last 2 days however, Israel has been guilty of major acts of violence against civilians and against aid workers from the UN and the Red Cross. There are just too many for them to waive away with their "we don't target civilians" response/excuse.

UN and Red Cross convoys that have been given clearance by Israeli forces to bring in aid, have repeatedly come under fire and have taken casualties. Not only did they go through all the proper channels to get clearance but they use those vehicles that have the big RED CROSSES on their sides. One time maybe, several times is just not believable.

Listening to the lead UN rep for humanitarian aid describe the actions on NPR yesterday was chilling. Perhaps there are mitigating circumstances? Harder to believe.

Plus:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/10/world/middleeast/10zeitoun.html?ref=
world

Civilians being gathered into one location and then that building being shelled shortly thereafter. This may be the worst one yet. It's hard to imagine a more purely evil act than this, especially for a group with it's history.

I have no agenda, just looking for facts, please add them as you see them. (apologies if posted elsewhere already).

SIGNYM

Friday, January 9, 2009 8:33 PM

[sarcasm] NO NO NO! You've got it all wrong!!! Israelis are the GOOD GUYS!!!!! [/sarcasm]

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

RIVERLOVE

Friday, January 9, 2009 8:36 PM

Israel gave Gaza self-rule in 1994, unilaterally withdrawing the last of its citizens and soldiers from Gaza in 2005. Hamas, voted into power in 2006, fought and defeated their political and military rival, Fatah, to seize de facto control of Gaza in 2007. In the past eight years, Hamas has fired more than 10,000 rockets and mortars into Israel, 7,000 of them after Israel's 2005 withdrawal. With improved technology, reportedly assisted by Iran, Hamas' rockets can now fly 24 miles before impact and explosion, thereby threatening, injuring and killing more and more Israelis living in southern Israel. That's what this is all about now, Israel finally said enough.

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, January 9, 2009 8:37 PM

Get all the info you can but consider the source

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/200915854482046
90.html

Lets party like its 1939

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Get all the info you can but consider the source

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/200915854482046
90.html

Lets party like its 1939

Article about US media "bias." Some of the comments are the best part:

"U.S residents should start reading news from all sources if they want to know something close to reality. The media is so politically influenced that it is impossible for it to report in fair manner in US."

True. Sometimes I think people who don't live here don't realize that the US is like 50 countries and it's hard just keeping up on our own current events, let alone foreign conflicts that have been ongoing for thousands of years. We'd LIKE to, but there's only so much time in the day.

And this is also what we see:

"It is true that the news coverage in the US is biased in favor of the Jews but it is also true that the Palestinians do little to get sympathy in the US. When they elect Hamas they ask for war. When they march it is not for peace but waiving AK's and pledging destruction. Palestine needs a Gandi."

Thank God/Allah for the Internet - you can now follow Al Jazedera and events in Gaza by Twitter:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/20081229165319379
71.html

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:46 AM

Someone already keeps a scorecard, and I am surprised no one else has so far mentioned it.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

I mean, if you wanna nitpick the details, it's pretty damn clear.

-F

GINOBIFFARONI

Saturday, January 10, 2009 3:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
When they elect Hamas they ask for war. When they march it is not for peace but waiving AK's and pledging destruction. Palestine needs a Gandi."

Thank God/Allah for the Internet - you can now follow Al Jazedera and events in Gaza by Twitter:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/20081229165319379
71.html

Would a fair comparison be if the Republicans had of won your recent election, the US voted to be attacked ?

I don't think Gandi would have survived this conflict. The mossad would of killed him or more likely ignored him and simply taken whatever they wanted anyway.

Remember this ethic cleansing started in 1948, the only time the Palestinians get any notice is when they fight back, and also it was the Jewish terrorists who managed to take over Palestine in 1948 by using similar tactics...

Lets party like its 1939

DREAMTROVE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 6:01 AM

I would call that Evil vs. Eviler, but still both Evil. Of course, if we threw in the US Govt. on dead muslim children in what I suppose can only be called the former Persian Empire. (Really, I can't think of another term than encompasses this region and nothing else.)

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
" When they elect Hamas they ask for war. When they march it is not for peace but waiving AK's and pledging destruction. Palestine needs a Gandi."

Would a fair comparison be if the Republicans had of won your recent election, the US voted to be attacked ?

Gino - Just so you know, that was not my comment, it was from the Al Jazeera site.

Point well taken.

I think the poster's point is also a good one. That is how much of the world sees Hamas, even the larger Arab (not just Muslim) Middle East. It may be inaccurate and unfair, but it's also a reality they shouldn't ignore. They should consider taking the money they spend on rockets and hire a good marketing firm.

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Someone already keeps a scorecard, and I am surprised no one else has so far mentioned it.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

I mean, if you wanna nitpick the details, it's pretty damn clear.

-F

Thx for the link - I wonder how many here have seen this site? I appreciate their list of Recommended News Sources:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/daily_news.html

So far this seems like a pretty good one:

http://www.vtjp.org/news/news.php

The death ratio charts seem to be popular graphics for supporters of Hamas. How would a similar chart look for US and Insurgent death numbers? I don't discount them but think the articles do a better job.

I want to find details on the wording for the recent proposed UN cease fire - can't believe Hamas didn't want it, but the wording would probably make that more clear.

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:52 PM

*Lovely* - they both suck. AP article:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNC
ndRPRq3gD95K50I80

"In Israel's first official response to the U.N. resolution, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office said more Hamas rockets fired Friday "only prove that the U.N.'s decision is not practical and will not be kept in practice by the Palestinian murder organizations."

Hamas also dismissed the resolution, and spokesmen expressed annoyance they were not consulted.

"Nobody consulted Hamas or talked to Hamas. Nobody put Hamas in the picture and yet Hamas is required to accept it. This is unacceptable," Mohammed Nazzal, a senior Hamas official based in Syria, told Al-Arabiya television.

Hamas has said it won't accept any cease-fire deal that does not include the full opening of Gaza's border crossings. The U.N. resolution emphasized the need to open all crossings, which Israel and Egypt have kept sealed since Hamas militants forcibly seized control of the territory 18 months ago."

Some dude sitting at his desk in Syria says "no deal - my people can continue to hold out." How brave.

GINOBIFFARONI

Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:12 PM

Pizmo,

Here is another piece, I posted it on another thread but it is spot on enough I think its worth another mention here...

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/200914102257130
539.html

FOCUS: OPINION
Israel's fait accompli in Gaza
By Eric S. Margolis

There are two completely different versions of what is currently happening in Gaza.

In the Israeli and North American press version, Hamas - 'Islamic terrorists' backed by Iran - have in an unprovoked attack fired deadly rockets on innocent Israel with the intent of destroying the Jewish state.

North American politicians and the media say Israel "has the right to defend itself".

True enough. No Israeli government can tolerate rockets hitting its towns, even though the casualty totals have been less than the car crash fatalities registered during a single holiday weekend on Israel's roads.

The firing of the feeble, home-made al-Qassam rockets by Palestinians is both useless and counter-productive.

It damages their image as an oppressed people and gives right-wing Israeli extremists a perfect reason to launch more attacks on the Arabs and refuse to discuss peace.

Israel's supporters insist it has the absolute right to drop hundreds of tonnes of bombs on 'Hamas targets' inside the 360sq km Gaza Strip to 'take out the terrorists'.

Civilians suffer, says Israel, because the cowardly Hamas hide among them.

Actually, it is more like shooting fish in a barrel.

Omitting facts

As usual, this cartoon-like version of events omits a great deal of nuance and background.

Seventy per cent of Palestinian children suffer from psychological trauma [GALLO/GETTY]
While firing rockets at civilians is a crime so, too, is the Israeli blockade of Gaza, which is an egregious violation of international law and the Geneva Conventions.

According to the UN, most of Gaza's 1.5 million Palestinian refugees subsist near the edge of hunger. Seventy per cent of Palestinian children in Gaza suffer from severe malnutrition and psychological trauma.

Medical facilities are critically short of doctors, personnel, equipment, and drugs. Gaza has quite literally become a human garbage dump for all the Arabs that Israel does not want.

Gaza is one of the world's most-densely populated places, a vast outdoor prison camp filled with desperate people. In the past, they threw stones at their Israeli occupiers; now they launch home-made rockets.

Call it a prison riot, writ large.

Eyeing the elections

When the so-called truce between Tel Aviv and Hamas expired on December 19, Israeli politicians were in the throes of preparing for the February 10 national elections.

Israeli politics are playing a key role in this crisis.

Ehud Barak, the defence minister and leader of the Labour party, and Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister and leader of the Kadima party, are trying to prove themselves tougher than Benjamin Netanyahu's hard-line Likud party - and one another.

Israel's elections are only six weeks away, and Likud was leading until the air raids on Gaza began. Kadima and Labour are now up in the polls.

The heavy attacks on Gaza are also designed to intimidate Israel's Arab neighbours, and make up for Israel's humiliating 2006 defeat in Lebanon, which still haunts the country's politicians and generals.

A fait accompli

When the air raids on Gaza began, Barak said: "We have totally changed the rules of the game."

He was right. By blitzing Hamas-run Gaza, Barak presented the incoming US administration with a fait accompli, and neatly checkmated the newest player in the Middle East Great Game - Barack Obama, the US president-elect - before he could even take a seat at the table.

IN DEPTH

Latest news and analysis from Gaza and Israel

Send us your views and videos

Watch our coverage of the war on Gaza
The Israeli offensive into Gaza now looks likely to short-circuit any plans Obama might have had to press Israel into withdrawing to its pre-1967 borders and sharing Jerusale

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, January 10, 2009 11:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

I think Fatah under Arafat tried to use PR more effectively than Hamas, but one there is a lack of resources and two.... to be honest who can change the mindset of Americans when competing against the propaganda machine of the US government anyway ? As we see on this site, there are those open to other opinions and those who would go to their deaths denying the facts of any arguement they are on the other side of.

Thx Gino - I'm not in full agreement with all of this but it is good to see another view. Discounting the rocket attacks because they are cheap rockets for instance - that speaks as much to Hamas' feeble and reckless methods as anything else. If someone breaks into your house but doesn't steal anything, you are still going to feel the outrage.

"As we see on this site, there are those open to other opinions and those who would go to their deaths denying the facts of any arguement they are on the other side of."

I'm disillusioned too by the responses on another thread. Otherwise intelligent people acting like children or demanding more violence or just rabid denial.

And I remain hopeful that Obama will do more than rubber stamp the past administration's positions.

GINOBIFFARONI

Sunday, January 11, 2009 2:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

I think Fatah under Arafat tried to use PR more effectively than Hamas, but one there is a lack of resources and two.... to be honest who can change the mindset of Americans when competing against the propaganda machine of the US government anyway ? As we see on this site, there are those open to other opinions and those who would go to their deaths denying the facts of any arguement they are on the other side of.

Thx Gino - I'm not in full agreement with all of this but it is good to see another view. Discounting the rocket attacks because they are cheap rockets for instance - that speaks as much to Hamas' feeble and reckless methods as anything else. If someone breaks into your house but doesn't steal anything, you are still going to feel the outrage.

"As we see on this site, there are those open to other opinions and those who would go to their deaths denying the facts of any arguement they are on the other side of."

I'm disillusioned too by the responses on another thread. Otherwise intelligent people acting like children or demanding more violence or just rabid denial.

And I remain hopeful that Obama will do more than rubber stamp the past administration's positions.

What action do you think we might have seen without the rocket attacks ?

That I think is the real problem, what other course is open... The UN ? The ICC

unless your Iraq or Serbia most nations thumb their nose at these organizations and with good reason... They do not act fairly or justly.

As for Obama... he sold his soul on this issue already

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerBlog.jhtml?itemNo=832667&cont
rassID=25&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1

unless he was lying, and its hard to hope for that considering all the other unpopular things it is likely he will be facing with the economy.

At best maybe isolationism could be hoped for. When the US is broke enough, the lack of military aid being sent may stabilize the situation, but I doubt it.

Lets party like its 1939

PIZMOBEACH

Monday, January 12, 2009 2:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
What action do you think we might have seen without the rocket attacks ?

That I think is the real problem, what other course is open... The UN ? The ICC

unless your Iraq or Serbia most nations thumb their nose at these organizations and with good reason... They do not act fairly or justly.

As for Obama... he sold his soul on this issue already

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerBlog.jhtml?itemNo=832667&cont
rassID=25&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1

unless he was lying, and its hard to hope for that considering all the other unpopular things it is likely he will be facing with the economy.

At best maybe isolationism could be hoped for. When the US is broke enough, the lack of military aid being sent may stabilize the situation, but I doubt it.

What other action? ANY other than more rockets that have little hope other than to annoy.

The world, the UN - may feel saturated with the needs of the oppressed, and as much as the members may take an oath to be World Ambassadors, they are still people like you and me.

Hard to be objective all the time and groups with their public agenda... I'm not surprised when larger nations side with Israel (if not their methods) in this case.

PIZMOBEACH

Monday, January 12, 2009 3:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

As for Obama... he sold his soul on this issue already

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerBlog.jhtml?itemNo=832667&cont
rassID=25&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1

unless he was lying, and its hard to hope for that considering all the other unpopular things it is likely he will be facing with the economy.

Recent events are not playing as favorably in the US for Israel as some in Europe may believe (want to believe?). And he is a shown himself to be someone who wants everyone to be happy and get along. I'd wait until after he takes the oath and gets daily briefings. Of course, that may just make him a bigger supporter, who knows.

HERO

Monday, January 12, 2009 4:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
[sarcasm] NO NO NO! You've got it all wrong!!! Israelis are the GOOD GUYS!!!!! [/sarcasm]

The Isrealis and the Palistinians are the good guys. Hamas and the other Islamic terrorists are the bad guys.

For example. Hamas kills innocent Isrealis (with rockets and such). Isreal comes to kill Hamas. Hamas could assemble in the desert to get killed. Instead Hamas chooses to hide in schools, homes, Mosques, and hospitals forcing Isreal to kill them in those locations because Hamas wants the innocent to die with them. Hamas wants the innocent to die, otherwise they would not endanger them. Isreali soldiers only want Hamas to die, which is why they go out of their way to avoid killing the innocent (after all it would be easier to just carpet bomb the whole place, Isreal chooses not to do that...because they care more for the Palestinian people then Hamas does). If Hamas was in the desert (we could give them shovels and such to dig their graves...official UN Peace Shovels) then not a single innocent Palistinian would die (unless they happened to be wandering in the desert that day...maybe the UN could post a sign or something).

We've seen this evil before. In Iraq, for example, a terrorist/insurgent is in a car with his wife and children when it gets hit by a missile fired by a Predator. Its his fault, not the Predator operator or the US. He should have exited his vehicle, walked several hundred meters away and waited patiently to meet Allah. Instead he chose to endanger his family by engaging in a risky lifestyle and not protecting his family from the consequences (kinda like a drunk driver).

Here is my peace plan. Everybody stops shooting. Hamas assembles at a designated location in the desert say...next Thursday. They can bring their guns. At noon they start shooting...does not matter what direction. At five minutes after noon Isreal gets to start shooting. If Isreal kills just Hamas, fine, we declare Isreal the winner and peace restored. If Isreal bombs Hamas AND the Hamas-free cities, then we declare Isreal the loser and peace restored. Then we can talk about big empty spaces in Lebanon...

H

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Monday, January 12, 2009 4:55 PM

Hero is right. And furthermore, the side that always breaks the peace 1st is Hamas.

Imagine if you lived in Montana in a world where Canada felt it had a right to your land. Unable to invade and take it by force they resort to launching rockets that can fall anytime anywhere in an effort to make you live in terror. You'd want the US military to eliminate that threat.

Again and again it's Hamas that fires 1st. If a peace settlement is brokered in 2009, which will happen eventually, by 2010 Hamas will have broken it again. This is their way.

KWICKO

Monday, January 12, 2009 7:00 PM

They have a way? That better than a plan?

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

PIZMOBEACH

Monday, January 12, 2009 7:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Here is my peace plan. Everybody stops shooting. Hamas assembles at a designated location in the desert say...next Thursday. They can bring their guns. At noon they start shooting...does not matter what direction. At five minutes after noon Isreal gets to start shooting. If Isreal kills just Hamas, fine, we declare Isreal the winner and peace restored. If Isreal bombs Hamas AND the Hamas-free cities, then we declare Isreal the loser and peace restored. Then we can talk about big empty spaces in Lebanon...

H

Interesting... I think you are on to something. A violent peace plan should certainly appeal to both sides.

GINOBIFFARONI

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
What action do you think we might have seen without the rocket attacks ?

That I think is the real problem, what other course is open... The UN ? The ICC

unless your Iraq or Serbia most nations thumb their nose at these organizations and with good reason... They do not act fairly or justly.

As for Obama... he sold his soul on this issue already

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerBlog.jhtml?itemNo=832667&cont
rassID=25&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1

unless he was lying, and its hard to hope for that considering all the other unpopular things it is likely he will be facing with the economy.

At best maybe isolationism could be hoped for. When the US is broke enough, the lack of military aid being sent may stabilize the situation, but I doubt it.

What other action? ANY other than more rockets that have little hope other than to annoy.

The world, the UN - may feel saturated with the needs of the oppressed, and as much as the members may take an oath to be World Ambassadors, they are still people like you and me.

Hard to be objective all the time and groups with their public agenda... I'm not surprised when larger nations side with Israel (if not their methods) in this case.

With the present UN structure, even if a resolution is brought against Israel, it is either ignored.. or vetoed by the US

So in my mind they are a useless organization... get rid of the veto and maybe... but until then

The rockets are the only thing bringing the problem out into the open, no rockets you just have a massive prison camp on starvation rations being screwed over by Israel at their whim

Lets party like its 1939

RUE

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:33 AM

"The rockets are the only thing bringing the problem out into the open, no rockets you just have a massive prison camp on starvation rations being screwed over by Israel at their whim"

Absolutely.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 1:05 AM

Get rid of the rockets and there is no problem to bring out, except that Gaza is being run by ruthless thuglords, but certainly no one who thinks Hamas is a legitimate government would care about that.

So let me know when you can figure out a way of doing that, because Hamas isn't going to just hand them to you.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RUE

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 1:06 AM

Hamas is the legitimate government of Gaza, at least according to the Israel-hating Nazi website Wikipedia.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

GINOBIFFARONI

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 1:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Get rid of the rockets and there is no problem to bring out, except that Gaza is being run by ruthless thuglords, but certainly no one who thinks Hamas is a legitimate government would care about that.

So let me know when you can figure out a way of doing that, because Hamas isn't going to just hand them to you.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

And I suppose if they were ruthless thuglords in the favor of the United States this would make all the difference in your mind...

lets see the ANC and Mandella had US Support and were terrorists

the Contras in Nicaragua

the Shah of Iran

etc, etc, etc

just because you dont like them doesn't mean they are not the legitimate government in Gaza... they were elected and when Fatah tried to illegally dissolve that government they were the victors of the civil war that followed.

While they violated the peace treaty, Israel NEVER complied with the provisions in the first place

Lets party like its 1939

GINOBIFFARONI

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Here is my peace plan. Everybody stops shooting. Hamas assembles at a designated location in the desert say...next Thursday. They can bring their guns. At noon they start shooting...does not matter what direction. At five minutes after noon Isreal gets to start shooting. If Isreal kills just Hamas, fine, we declare Isreal the winner and peace restored. If Isreal bombs Hamas AND the Hamas-free cities, then we declare Isreal the loser and peace restored. Then we can talk about big empty spaces in Lebanon...

H

Interesting... I think you are on to something. A violent peace plan should certainly appeal to both sides.

How is this then, give both sides a week to come to some kind of agreement, or if not nuke them all Jew and Muslim alike.

Ukraine can supply the weapons, they need the cash

Lets party like its 1939

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:05 AM

That’s two votes for Hamas.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:15 AM

Blue Sun Company Woman- you have it completely bass-akwards.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

RUE

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:33 AM

"That’s two votes for Hamas."

No, it's three votes, or maybe an infinity of votes plus 2, for the fact that Hamas IS the legitimate government of Gaza, if you count that anti-Israel Nazi site Wikipedia.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:05 AM

Okay, three votes to not care that Gaza is left to Hamas.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

GEEZER

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Hamas is the legitimate government of Gaza, at least according to the Israel-hating Nazi website Wikipedia.

If you have a cite of Wikipedia saying that Hamas is the legitimate government of Gaza, please provide it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GINOBIFFARONI

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 4:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Hamas is the legitimate government of Gaza, at least according to the Israel-hating Nazi website Wikipedia.

If you have a cite of Wikipedia saying that Hamas is the legitimate government of Gaza, please provide it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Conflict between Fatah and Hamas had been simmering since Hamas won the legislature elections in January 2006. The U.S. and Israel attempted to undermine the democratically elected Hamas[4] while strengthening President Mahmoud Abbas's position and forcing Hamas from power. The U.S., Egypt, and Israel also armed and trained Fatah for a possible 'War' with Hamas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)

But if Hamas leaders thought its parliamentary victory would bestow greater credibility on them in the eyes of the international community - or if they thought in any way that they would be given any more leeway - they were mistaken

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2001/israel_and_the_pa
lestinians/profiles/1654510.stm

Lets party like its 1939

GINOBIFFARONI

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 5:04 AM

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0202/p09s02-coop.html

What 'Israel's right to exist' means to Palestinians
Recognition would imply acceptance that they deserve to be treated as subhumans.
By John V. Whitbeck

from the February 2, 2007 edition

DEAN ROHRER

JEDDAH, SAUDI ARABIA - Since the Palestinian elections in 2006, Israel and much of the West have asserted that the principal obstacle to any progress toward Israeli-Palestinian peace is the refusal of Hamas to "recognize Israel," or to "recognize Israel's existence," or to "recognize Israel's right to exist."

These three verbal formulations have been used by Israel, the United States, and the European Union as a rationale for collective punishment of the Palestinian people. The phrases are also used by the media, politicians, and even diplomats interchangeably, as though they mean the same thing. They do not.

"Recognizing Israel" or any other state is a formal legal and diplomatic act by one state with respect to another state. It is inappropriate – indeed, nonsensical – to talk about a political party or movement extending diplomatic recognition to a state. To talk of Hamas "recognizing Israel" is simply to use sloppy, confusing, and deceptive shorthand for the real demand being made of the Palestinians.

"Recognizing Israel's existence" appears on first impression to involve a relatively straightforward acknowledgment of a fact of life. Yet there are serious practical problems with this language. What Israel, within what borders, is involved? Is it the 55 percent of historical Palestine recommended for a Jewish state by the UN General Assembly in 1947? The 78 percent of historical Palestine occupied by the Zionist movement in 1948 and now viewed by most of the world as "Israel" or "Israel proper"? The 100 percent of historical Palestine occupied by Israel since June 1967 and shown as "Israel" (without any "Green Line") on maps in Israeli schoolbooks?

Israel has never defined its own borders, since doing so would necessarily place limits on them. Still, if this were all that was being demanded of Hamas, it might be possible for the ruling political party to acknowledge, as a fact of life, that a state of Israel exists today within some specified borders. Indeed, Hamas leadership has effectively done so in recent weeks.

"Recognizing Israel's right to exist," the actual demand being made of Hamas and Palestinians, is in an entirely different league. This formulation does not address diplomatic formalities or a simple acceptance of present realities. It calls for a moral judgment.

There is an enormous difference between "recognizing Israel's existence" and "recognizing Israel's right to exist." From a Palestinian perspective, the difference is in the same league as the difference between asking a Jew to acknowledge that the Holocaust happened and asking him to concede that the Holocaust was morally justified. For Palestinians to acknowledge the occurrence of the Nakba – the expulsion of the great majority of Palestinians from their homeland between 1947 and 1949 – is one thing. For them to publicly concede that it was "right" for the Nakba to have happened would be something else entirely. For the Jewish and Palestinian peoples, the Holocaust and the Nakba, respectively, represent catastrophes and injustices on an unimaginable scale that can neither be forgotten nor forgiven.

To demand that Palestinians recognize "Israel's right to exist" is to demand that a people who have been treated as subhumans unworthy of basic human rights publicly proclaim that they are subhumans. It would imply Palestinians' acceptance that they deserve what has been done and continues to be done to them. Even 19th-century US governments did not require the surviving native Americans to publicly proclaim the "rightness" of their ethnic cleansing by European colonists as a condition precedent to even discussing what sort of land reservation they might receive. Nor did native Americans have to live under economic blockade and threat of starvation until they shed wh

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 5:08 AM

In other words, even other Arab states don’t consider Hamas a legitimate government.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:12 AM

How bout spinning the telescope around and looking in the correct end for once.

Israel damn well needs to recognize Palestines "right to exist" - which they fucking don't.

Till that happens - which VERY specifically includes not letting "settlers" outright take Palestinian land using violent means, and THEN backing them up when the Palestinians defend themselves against the bastards, they're the aggressor here, no matter the technicalities.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

GINOBIFFARONI

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:14 PM

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/20091139514376677
9.html

Olmert call 'behind US abstention'

Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, has said a last-minute telephone call to George Bush forced the US to abstain in a crucial UN vote on the Gaza war.

In a speech late on Monday, Olmert said Condoleezza Rice, the US secretary of state, was left "pretty shamed" at the vote and had to abstain on a resolution she had personally arranged.

The Israeli prime minister narrated how he demanded to talk to Bush last Thursday, minutes before a vote in the UN Security Council on a resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.

"When we saw that Rice, for reasons we did not really understand, wanted to vote in favour of the resolution ... I looked for President Bush," Olmert said.

Bush, who apparently was taken off a stage in Philadelphia where he was making a speech, said he was not informed on the resolution and was "not familiar with the phrasing."

"I'm familiar with it. You can't vote in favour." Olmert claimed telling the US president.

"He[Bush] gave an order to the secretary of state and she did not vote in favour of it, a resolution she cooked up, phrased, organised and manoeuvred for," Olmert said.

The Israeli PM described Bush as an "unparalleled friend" of Israel.

UN call

Fourteen of the Security Council's 15 members supported the resolution, which has until now failed to stop Israel's operation in Gaza.

Olmert criticised the UN resolution, saying that "no decision, present or future, will deny us our basic right to defend the residents of Israel".

Israel launched its offensive on December 27, in what it said was an attempt to stop Hamas firing rockets into southern Israel from Gaza.

After a first week of intense air campaign, Israel sent ground forces into Gaza in the second week of fighting and is now making its deepest push into the Strip.

What a joke, the UN needs to eliminate the veto

Lets party like its 1939

GEEZER

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 1:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
How bout spinning the telescope around and looking in the correct end for once.

Israel damn well needs to recognize Palestines "right to exist" - which they fucking don't.

I'd say that both sides need to recognize each other's right to exist.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 1:46 PM

There's that - and also you nailed what MY problem with Hamas is dead-bang a bit earlier, in that them and Olmerts goons don't wanna stop this shit cause they're feeding off each other to stay in power at the expense of both their peoples.

Barring certain extremists, most Palestinians would be completely satisfied if the damn Izzies would stay on THEIR side of the border, quit cutting off power, water and medical supplies, and end the collective shelling of entire neighborhoods in response to even the tiniest excuse to do so.

But that ain't what they do - and no, the rockets don't help the situation none, but that's a goldfish spittin in the eye of a shark when it comes to it, and the overblown reaction the Izzies have about it has at least begun to bring the worlds attention on the matter, and made them look awful bad since to most reasoning folk it really does look like they're just praying for excuses to act as they do...

That bein said, hell yes, prick that he was, Arafat was a heck of a lot better at this stuff than the current crop of imbeciles, but that's not so high a bar, is it now ?

Hell with blowing up civvies, start clippin leaders and this problem is gonna come to resolution pretty quick - or at the very least quit propping up the damn Izzies on my tax dime, they wanna be a recognized nation then they can damned well either get off our tits or apply for statehood/protectorate, cause that's the choice I'd give em, I had any say in it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:28 PM

Quote:
GEEZER

I'd say that both sides need to recognize each other's right to exist.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Well said

No offense, but when Geezer has become the voice of reason, I'm afraid that says something about the rest of us. Ack! it's some chemical plothole that is turning us all into reavers!

Keep keeping the Shiny side up.

PIZMOBEACH

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:05 PM

Hillary saying the right things, NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/us/politics/14state.html?hp

"Mrs. Clinton said America must recognize Israel’s right to defend itself from Hamas rockets but cannot ignore the suffering of Palestinians citizens, as well as Israelis. “Real security for Israel, normal and positive relations with its neighbors” as well as genuine security for Palestinians must continue to be America’s ideal, she said."

Mrs Clinton also expressed concern over a lack of a season II of Firefly, saying, "It saddens be to know that I will start my service as Secretary of State with a great weight still on the world's shoulders. A cancer of the unthinking and the work of the joyless media aparatchik, that must be addressed... even before this Gaza junk is tackled...I will work without equal to bring about a season 2 or a second movie, or both."

Many in the press core were seen to be openly weeping at these words...

HERO

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
How is this then, give both sides a week to come to some kind of agreement, or if not nuke them all Jew and Muslim alike.

I considered that. But that would involve us. My solution lets Isreal and Hamas settle the problem without outside interference except by the UN (who hand out the official Peace Shovel...the one with the blue steel blade).

Notice my plan involves the destruction of Hamas as a predicate to peace regardless of whether Isreal wins or loses.

H

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 10:34 PM

Pizmo

A word of warning:

Hillary knows how to say the right thing when it's called upon to do so, but don't trust her to believe it. She is easily on the top most evil people alive list. Madeline Albright is arguably the most evil person alive, in terms of action, but at least Albright has come out and admitted to being evil. Wolfowitz and Perle and Kristol, the jewish contingent of the anti-semite brigade, are pretty much on the level, so while they are all evil, they are pretty transparent, with little pretense. Clintonistas have a layer of deception which defrauds the casual observer.

Bush is personally evil, but not on the level that he's put up as. He's kind of boston strangler level of evil. Cheney is not count dracula, in spite of the resemblence, but he really believes in his mission, in spite of the deception. He probably is not even stalin evil, he's just dead. Osama is also not high enough on the evil list, he's another manipulative two face of evil, but the recent proposition that the leader of Hamas is acting deliberately against palestine, that's almost a new low.

But no, I think I can safely say, and back up with about 10,000 pages if you want, that Hillary Clinton is probably the closest thing to pure evil that we have. The way she can turn on and kill a close friend in minutes, because there's a personal strategic advantage, that's much more triple-8 than anything I've seen. And some politicians are pretty damn evil.

And no, I'm not kidding.

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 10:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
How is this then, give both sides a week to come to some kind of agreement, or if not nuke them all Jew and Muslim alike.

I considered that. But that would involve us. My solution lets Isreal and Hamas settle the problem without outside interference except by the UN (who hand out the official Peace Shovel...the one with the blue steel blade).

Notice my plan involves the destruction of Hamas as a predicate to peace regardless of whether Isreal wins or loses.

Hero, congrats for thinking. I think it's possible, but I don't think it's a workable plan. Something else would step in. You have to make peace *with* Hamas. People can change.

Gino, I basically like you and agree with what you post here. I want you to consider that you're proposal is probably the only universally anti-semitic thing ever posted. No offense. Unless you only mean it as a bluff.

PIZMOBEACH

Tuesday, January 13, 2009 10:39 PM

Preachin' to the choir... she's a changeling for sure.

GEEZER

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
There's that - and also you nailed what MY problem with Hamas is dead-bang a bit earlier, in that them and Olmerts goons don't wanna stop this shit cause they're feeding off each other to stay in power at the expense of both their peoples.

The question I wish the Hamas supporters would ask themselves is this.

If the relative military strengths of Hamas and the Israeli government were reversed, do you think that there would be more or less dead Israelis than there are dead Palestinians now?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GINOBIFFARONI

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
How is this then, give both sides a week to come to some kind of agreement, or if not nuke them all Jew and Muslim alike.

I considered that. But that would involve us. My solution lets Isreal and Hamas settle the problem without outside interference except by the UN (who hand out the official Peace Shovel...the one with the blue steel blade).

Notice my plan involves the destruction of Hamas as a predicate to peace regardless of whether Isreal wins or loses.

H

Then I take it you are against the aid the United State is and has been providing Israel ?

Lets party like its 1939

GINOBIFFARONI

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
How is this then, give both sides a week to come to some kind of agreement, or if not nuke them all Jew and Muslim alike.

I considered that. But that would involve us. My solution lets Isreal and Hamas settle the problem without outside interference except by the UN (who hand out the official Peace Shovel...the one with the blue steel blade).

Notice my plan involves the destruction of Hamas as a predicate to peace regardless of whether Isreal wins or loses.

Hero, congrats for thinking. I think it's possible, but I don't think it's a workable plan. Something else would step in. You have to make peace *with* Hamas. People can change.

Gino, I basically like you and agree with what you post here. I want you to consider that you're proposal is probably the only universally anti-semitic thing ever posted. No offense. Unless you only mean it as a bluff.

Actually it was sarcasm... of a sort

For any peace to be workable a level playing field must be established. Right now the Palestinians have nothing at all to lose. The wrong inflicted on them is compounded every year nothing changes, and there is no impartial forum or redress for them to take. They only have the fight.

Heros statement implies equality, where none exists. If Israels position here is so strong, then why did the US go against Serbia over the KLA and Kosavo ?

The KLA committed many acts of terrorism, and the Serbian army surely would have ended the problem in the same manner Hero suggests... until the US pushes NATO into bombing Serbia.

To me Muslim or Jews or Christians.... I really don't give a crap. You treat people fairly and expect the same in return, and the way the US supports Israel is hypocritical when you consider the way the act in other similar situations...

So if you going to support the genocide of one group, then hell might as well go for both... everyone has dirty hands here

Lets party like its 1939

GINOBIFFARONI

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
There's that - and also you nailed what MY problem with Hamas is dead-bang a bit earlier, in that them and Olmerts goons don't wanna stop this shit cause they're feeding off each other to stay in power at the expense of both their peoples.

The question I wish the Hamas supporters would ask themselves is this.

If the relative military strengths of Hamas and the Israeli government were reversed, do you think that there would be more or less dead Israelis than there are dead Palestinians now?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Would they have been driven off their land to begin with if that had been the case?

Mind you look at some past acts

http://www.rense.com/general21/pastzionist.htm

Following are just a few of the many massacres committed by Jewish-Zionist terrorists, notably by the Zionist Hagana, Irgun and Stern Gang groups.

Don't expect any Hollywood films highlighting any of these massacres:

1. King David Hotel, July 22, 1946.
2. Sharafat, Feb. 7, 1951.
3. Deir Yassin, April 10, 1948.
4. Falameh, April 2, 1951.
5. Naseruddine, April 14, 1948.
6. Quibya, Oct. 14, 1953.
7. Carmel, April 20, 1948.
8. Nahalin, March, 28, 1954.
9. Al-Qabu, May 1, 1948.
10. Gaza, Feb. 28, 1955.
11. Beit Kiras, May 3, 1948.
12. Khan Yunis, May 31, 1955.
13. Beitkhoury, May 5, 1948.
14. Khan Yunis Again, Aug. 31, 1955
15. Az-Zaytoun, May 6, 1948.
16. Tiberia, Dec. 11, 1955.
17. Wadi Araba, May 13, 1950.
18. As-Sabha, Nov. 2, 1955.
19. Gaza Again, April 5, 1956.
20. Houssan, Sept. 25, 1956.
21. Rafa, Aug. 16, 1956.
22. Qalqilyah, Oct. 10, 1956.
23. Ar-Rahwa, Sept. 12, 1956.
24. Kahr Kassem, Oct. 29, 1956.
25. Gharandal, Sept. 13, 1956.
26. Gaza Strip, Nov. 1956.
26. Gaza Strip, Nov. 1956.

July 2, 1946: The King David Hotel in Jerusalem was bombed, killing 91 people.

Menachem Begin, who was later awarded the Nobel Prize for peace, is the same man who planned the destruction of the King David Hotel and the massacre of Deir Yassin. Ex prime minister, Shamir, was originally a member of the Jewish terrorist gang called Irgun, which was headed by none other than Menachem Begin. Shamir later moved over to the even more radical "Stern Gang," which committed many vicious atrocities.

Shamir himself has defended the various assassinations committed by the Irgun and Stern gangs on the grounds that "it was the only way we could operate, because we were so small. So it was more efficient and more moral to go for selected targets." The selected moral targets in those early days of the founding of the state of Israel included bombing of the King David Hotel and the massacre of Deir Yassin.

April 9, 1948: A combined force of Irgun and Stern Gangs committed a brutal massacre of 260 Arab residents of the village of Deir Yassin. Most of whom were women and children. The Israeli hordes even attacked the dead to satisfy their bestial tendencies. In April, 1954, during Holy Week, and on the eve of Easter, The Christian cemeteries in Haifa were invaded, crosses broken down and trampled under the feet of these miscreants, and the tombs desecrated. The Israeli military conquest, therefore was made against a defenseless people, who had been softened up by such earlier massacres as Deir Yasin (where 250 Arabs; men, women and children were massacred).

The Jew, Weizman, referred to the massacre as this "miraculous simplification of our task," and Ben Gurion said that "without Deir Yasin there would be no Israel." Americans are not told that ten percent of the Arabs killed by the Israelis in 1948 were Christian, and that ten percent of the Arab property confiscated belonged to Christians. Nor are they told that Israel's massacres and military actions forced 100,000 Christians to become refugees.

Accounts by Red Cross and United Nations observers who visited the scene said that the houses were first set on fire and the occupants were shot down as they came out to escape the flames. One pregnant wo

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:17 AM

Gino

Of course, but take this one, skipping John's theory that the Nazi's were a Rothschild plot to create Zionism, which is plausible, but event driven, I don't see a necessity for it, and I tend not to believe in things that don't *need* to be true. But nonetheless, consider this:

1. The main reason for antisemitism in Germany was that the jewish banking concerns had funded the german war machine, and then had gone and lent money to the opposition during the war. This was the principle charge levelled against them.

Now, sure, the jewish people didn't do this, some bankers did. But, let's carry it further.

2. WWII, the same thing happened with the gnomes of zurich, they were lending money to all sides, and the federal reserve was set up so that the gnomes of liberty street could do the same thing, because the gnomes of london already were.

Now let's be logical and assume that some of these concerns were jewish, but that jews weren't funding the holocaust, and so that necessitates that some of these concerns which were lending money were not jewish.

So, that brings me to

3. It's not Judaism per se that's causing the problem, it's the manner of thinking that the jews have gotten themselves stuck in at times, but they are far from alone in that.

4. What we have to do is look at the root causes:

Socialism, not socialist parties or ideas, but state socialism as imposed cooperation

Capitalism, not the free market, old style ancient egyptian commodity capitalism

Old Testament condoning of genocide which is a part of all major western cultures, not just religions

Arms races, testing new weapons, strategies and tactics.

Feeling of Supremacy, not superiority. The superior would have no need to rule, the would be like the elves. *(japan, most of their history, except when de facto ruled by germany under puppet Tojo) as opposed to the supremacist, who must rule, because his belief is not that he is superior, thought he might believe this, but that he has the right to determine the fate of others. In the ME conflict we see a lot of this from all sides, including our own.

Globalism, anyone believing in a united earth as the only chance for lasting peace

Machiavellian attitude towards any of these, especially the last

World population control. The people who believe in this might do so because they think its right, or because they think their ethnic group is about to be overrun, and so others need to be controlled (west pressuring china on the one child rule in exchange for unfettered free trade: Watch, if that free trade breaks down, that one child policy is out the window)

And of course, bogus historical territorial claims. Every piece of land on earth is claimed several times over. Israel/Palestine, for example, can be claimed by:

Israel
Palestine
Eqypt
Greece
Italy
Syria
Lebanon
Jordan
Saudi Arabia
Iran
Somalia
Eritrea

Am I leaving out anyone? I'm sure I am. So, this "we used to own that piece of land" was a strong part of WwI+II on all sides, and is always a problem, and a strong part of the palestinian conflict, but the list of people who could claim that is usually absurd. Lithuania can lay claim to large parts of Russia, the Ukraine and if I recall correctly, all of Poland. But who cant lay claim to Poland?

Usually, yes, you're correct, I've studied a lot of history, and in each of the above cases, jewish populations were expelled because of what the jewish financial elite was doing with credit economy and what the jewish theocratic elite was doing in trying to change local govt. policies.

But this isn't unique to jews, and it does not logically complete a circuit. I just flamed a post by FMF which admittedly I usually do, not because I have anything against her personally, just that each individual post I analyze objectively, and usually find objectionable. But in this case, it was about the Islamic theocratic elite trying to change local laws in Europe, which they are. Lots of non-jewish groups try to crush and control other nations through credit

GINOBIFFARONI

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:01 AM

Historical Claims for land are one thing,

like Germany and the Sudetenland, etc

But with Palestine we are talking about individual wrongs,

Not, hey you are now Czech and not German etc but rather the knock on the door in the middle of the night and being thrown off the patch of land your family has farmed for generations to make room for a Jewish immigrant...

how would this affect you?

then with whatever you can carry you live in a ghetto, getting by on handouts... children and grandchildren witness and live this ...

Historical antisemitism aside, I think these people are right to hate Israelis. In their shoes, I would hate and fight too.

In their shoes what would you do ?

How would you end this ?

That last link I tossed in for Geezer as an example of terrorist and ethnic cleansing committed by Israel with no justice done...

another post I paralleled the situation with that of Kosavo pointing out the US has gone both ways in the same sort of situation.

Now you are right about Americans wearing out their welcome, not just in the Middle East, but also Central and South America, Europe, hell even here in Canada I'd say 2 out of three hold the US in contempt...

How do you change that while still pulling the same crap that put you in this position... and don't blame Bush, these policy's have gone on forever.

Lets party like its 1939

VETERAN

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:23 AM

Quote:
Geezer wrote:
Tuesday, January 13, 2009 03:09

I'd say that both sides need to recognize each other's right to exist.

That would be a start.

The question I have is "Why is it that neither side in this conflict manages to take the moral high ground?" It's always an eye for an eye, or arm or head or....

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:05 AM

Quote:
Not, hey you are now Czech and not German etc but rather the knock on the door in the middle of the night and being thrown off the patch of land your family has farmed for generations to make room for a Jewish immigrant...

actually, it's pretty similar. Germans had been settling the so called Sudetenland for some time, and then said "ergo it's ours." I think it's the same. My ancestors were Sudetenland settlers, nobles, and members of the German govt. How it effected them was that they were executed for being enemies of the state, which is to say, opponents of the party. How would it effect me personally? I'd move.

Quote:
Historical antisemitism aside, I think these people are right to hate Israelis.

Everyone has that right. I think that often we are told that we don't. You can hate dogs, or cops, or whoever.

Quote:
How do you change that while still pulling the same crap that put you in this position... and don't blame Bush, these policy's have gone on forever.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, and why would I blame Bush? Imperialism breeds contempt. If it gets too bad, I become someone else.

Sorry if this seems too passive. Things don't hit me, they pass me by. The fact that this is almost always true is a strength, according to my faith.

GINOBIFFARONI

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Not, hey you are now Czech and not German etc but rather the knock on the door in the middle of the night and being thrown off the patch of land your family has farmed for generations to make room for a Jewish immigrant...

actually, it's pretty similar. Germans had been settling the so called Sudetenland for some time, and then said "ergo it's ours." I think it's the same. My ancestors were Sudetenland settlers, nobles, and members of the German govt. How it effected them was that they were executed for being enemies of the state, which is to say, opponents of the party. How would it effect me personally? I'd move.

Quote:
Historical antisemitism aside, I think these people are right to hate Israelis.

Everyone has that right. I think that often we are told that we don't. You can hate dogs, or cops, or whoever.

Quote:
How do you change that while still pulling the same crap that put you in this position... and don't blame Bush, these policy's have gone on forever.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, and why would I blame Bush? Imperialism breeds contempt. If it gets too bad, I become someone else.

Sorry if this seems too passive. Things don't hit me, they pass me by. The fact that this is almost always true is a strength, according to my faith.

Most of the time it seems many Americans feel that with every election they now have a clean slate...

that was a Bush thing or

it was Clintons fault

Part of the problem really

and how far would you move, say without an education, money, or a country that will allow you in ?

do not pass go, go straight to the ghetto.

The main thing that hung up the Dayton accords was Israels refusal of the right of folk who did move to return, and Arafat not selling them out...

Funny Israel didn't want Palestinians with money and / or educations to move back to their homeland...

BTW sorry to hear about your ancestors...

I can relate a little, two of my grandparents were from Poland. During WW2 they fought the Germans and ended up in a camp. I remember wondering about the tattoos when I was little.

Lets party like its 1939

GINOBIFFARONI

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:08 AM

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/200911011272326
0741.html

Who will save Israel from itself?
By Mark LeVine

The Israeli government's justifications for the war are being scrutinised [GALLO/GETTY]

One by one the justifications given by Israel for its latest war in Gaza are unravelling.

The argument that this is a purely defensive war, launched only after Hamas broke a six-month ceasefire has been challenged, not just by observers in the know such as Jimmy Carter, the former US president who helped facilitate the truce, but by centre-right Israeli intelligence think tanks.

The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, whose December 31 report titled "Six Months of the Lull Arrangement Intelligence Report," confirmed that the June 19 truce was only "sporadically violated, and then not by Hamas but instead by ... "rogue terrorist organisations".

Instead, "the escalation and erosion of the lull arrangement" occurred after Israel killed six Hamas members on November 4 without provocation and then placed the entire Strip under an even more intensive siege the next day.

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According to a joint Tel Aviv University-European University study, this fits a larger pattern in which Israeli violence has been responsible for ending 79 per cent of all lulls in violence since the outbreak of the second intifada, compared with only 8 per cent for Hamas and other Palestinian factions.

Indeed, the Israeli foreign ministry seems to realise that this argument is losing credibility.

During a conference call with half a dozen pro-Israel professors on Thursday, Asaf Shariv, the Consul General of Israel in New York, focused more on the importance of destroying the intricate tunnel system connecting Gaza to the Sinai.

He claimed that such tunnels were "as big as the Holland and Lincoln tunnels," and offered as proof the "fact" that lions and monkeys had been smuggled through them to a zoo in Gaza. In reality, the lions were two small cubs that were drugged, thrown in sacks, and dragged through a tunnel on their way to a private zoo.

Israel's self-image

The claim that Hamas will never accept the existence of Israel has proved equally misinformed, as Hamas leaders explicitly announce their intention to do just that in the pages of the Los Angeles Times or to any international leader or journalist who will meet with them.

With each new family, 10, 20 and 30 strong, buried under the rubble of a building in Gaza, the claim that the Israeli forces have gone out of their way to diminish civilian casualties - long a centre-piece of Israel's image as an enlightened and moral democracy - is falling apart.

Anyone with an internet connection can Google "Gaza humanitarian catastrophe" and find the UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in the Occupied Territories and read the thousands of pages of evidence documenting the reality of the current fighting, and the long term siege on Gaza that preceded it.

The Red Cross, normally scrupulous in its unwillingness to single out parties to a conflict for criticism, sharply criticised Israel for preventing medical personnel from reaching wounded Palestinians, some of whom remained trapped for days, slowly starving and dying in the Gazan rubble amidst their dead relatives.

Meanwhile, the United Nations has flatly denied Israeli claims that Palestinian fighters were using the UNRWA school compound bombed on January 6, in which 40 civilians were killed, to launch attacks, and has challenged Israel to prove otherwise.

War crimes admission

Additionally, numerous flippant remarks by senior Israeli politicians and generals, including Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister, refusing to make a distinction between civilian people and institutions and fighters - "Hamas doesn't ... and neither should we" is how Livni puts it - are rightly being seen as admissions of war crimes.

Indeed, in reviewing statement

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:31 AM

Quote:
Most of the time it seems many Americans feel that with every election they now have a clean slate...

People are sheep. Bush is Clinton is Bush.

Quote:

and how far would you move, say without an education, money, or a country that will allow you in ?

Yes, I tend to ignore the rules. to see how far, click on the I Intend to Misbehave thread and then click through the link on the third post.

Mr. Anderson, you feel that you are special, that somehow the rules don't apply to you.

Quote:
do not pass go, go straight to the ghetto.

They're acting too much like humans. A common fieldmouse has more sense.

Quote:
Israel

I'm familiar with the situation, and I skimmed the article. I agree basically that the Israelis are destroying the international Jewish image. Of course, it's just Ohlmert trying to save his ass, and the whole govt. is a sham. And sure, the PA govt. is undoubtedly a sham also, maybe govt. is just a sham.

Quote:
BTW sorry to hear about your ancestors...

Likewise, seems yours, like mine, followed my earlier comment "Didn't have to be jewish, all you had to be was in the way."

Jewish or not, no one cared, it was all about the labor camps and the corporations that ran them wanting more slaves. If not for that, the Germans would have probably followed through on their plan to deport the jews to Israel. It took three visits to Israel to get the Zionist authorities (they weren't technically Israeli authorities yet, it was still Palestine) to accept the 600,000 German jews as immigrants. This goes back to your who wants refugees idea.

It's really universal, not just on education and wealth. No one wants refugees. Populations have to move one family at a time, someone becomes a student at a university or something, etc.

GEEZER

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Mind you look at some past acts...

Well, it's nice to see that you've dropped any pretense of balance and come out as a flaming anti-semite at last.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:43 PM

Pffth, calling the ruling regime of a country notorious for such deeds out on them does not in any way qualify for that distinction - they did do that shit, and keep getting a pass because of a ridiculous perpetual victim status they play up for all it's worth, which damn well oughta be revoked.

Besides, Arabs are semites too, does that make Olmert and his goons anti-semetic as well ?

Why is it that whenever someone points out the damn Izzies don't have any moral high ground when it comes to terrorism that someone screams anti-semitism - I could give a rats ass what religion or ethnicity they are, any of em, it doesn't make this kind of crap acceptable by any means.

Both sides are dickheads, we know this, lets not pretend that ain't the truth, my bitch is that one set of them has a massive edge on the other causing the exact set of conditions they once suffered under, and here we are propping that bullshit up with my tax dime.

I got *issues* with that, and all the other dickheads on the planet we shovel money at (who, you'll notice all eventually turn on us a'la Saddam) that was originally taken from my by threat of force and violence.

You take money from a live and let live kinda dude, by threat of violence/incarceration and then use it to finance slaughter and repression worldwide, it's gonna piss him off no matter who's doin it - do you think I like Papa Doc and his fucking goons any better ?

Am I then a racist for not liking *that* set of murderous pricks just cause they happen to be darker than me ?

You can hate folks for being dickheads without race, religion or even politics being a single part of it - since when have we cared about any of the former when some asshole decides to have a cellphone conversation in the middle of a movie you paid to see ?

It's their ACTIONS that make them an asshole, and so it is here - they're being assholes, they've been assholes for years, and I am sick and tired of apologists making excuses for any of em, especially the ones making wanton slaughter and destruction on a people who's land they're stealing - an official policy, helpfully financed by money robbed from ME.

So don't go hiding behind that tired ole canard when someone shines the cold light of reality on your carefully tended fantasies and they happen to disintigrate into their component parts of myth and imagination, either refute it, or argue the point if you can, but hiding behind false accusations and phony outrage just makes you look like an apologist with no real argument.

You wanna try telling us Israel did NOT do that historically proven, and often fully-admitted, stuff above ? that they're NOT just as much terrorists themselves as anyone they love to fling that beloved accusation at ?

Cause I'd like for once to see *some* rational explaination of their actions in detail that didn't come from me - I know why they did some of it, but past a certain point there wasn't any *need* to act in that fashion, and yet they continued to do so, care to explain that away ?

Or you could just leave it at hiding behind a trite accusation backed by phony outrage to avoid having to argue the point...

Up to you.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

PIZMOBEACH

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:50 PM

Bin Laden, on Tape, Urges Holy War Over Gaza

Wed Jan 14th

Mr. Potato Head "Re-re-resurfaces"

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/15/world/middleeast/15mideast.html?_r=1
&ref=world

from the article:

“There is only one strong way to bring the return of Al Aqsa and Palestine, and that is jihad in the path of God,” Mr. bin Laden said in the 22-minute audiotape, according to The Associated Press. “The duty is to urge people to jihad and to enlist the youth into jihad brigades.”

Given imho that we need an ally in that region, and given this kind of behaviour, who you gonna pick if not Israel?

GEEZER

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 5:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Pffth, calling the ruling regime of a country notorious for such deeds out on them does not in any way qualify for that distinction - they did do that shit, and keep getting a pass because of a ridiculous perpetual victim status they play up for all it's worth, which damn well oughta be revoked.

Besides, Arabs are semites too, does that make Olmert and his goons anti-semetic as well ?

Fremd. Read the whole article Gino quoted.

http://www.rense.com/general21/pastzionist.htm

If it was just critical of the Israeli regime, I'd have no trouble with it, aside from its anonymous author and the reliability of the site it's posted on.

However, it attacks not just the Israeli regime, but the Jewish people as a whole. That's a whole other kettle of fish.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:05 PM

These threads, no offense to the intelligent people who post them and on them, seem counter productive.

It doesn't really matter that much which side is more wrong, there's not going to be any change without diplomatic intervention, and at the moment, only Obama, or tptb forbid, Ms. Clinton can take that up.

It's interesting to discuss, but we do spend to spend a fair amount of time lobbing bombs at one another, and that time could be better spent. Not to mention, we seem to have broken River in the process. Maybe she'll recover and go back to being her old self. If she's beyond repair, then we'll have to go fetch another one.

PIZMOBEACH

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
These threads, no offense to the intelligent people who post them and on them, seem counter productive.

It doesn't really matter that much which side is more wrong, there's not going to be any change without diplomatic intervention, and at the moment, only Obama, or tptb forbid, Ms. Clinton can take that up.

It's interesting to discuss, but we do spend to spend a fair amount of time lobbing bombs at one another, and that time could be better spent. Not to mention, we seem to have broken River in the process. Maybe she'll recover and go back to being her old self. If she's beyond repair, then we'll have to go fetch another one.

Counter productive to whom? This thread was started to get away from the spewfest that was going on about this topic elsewhere. So far it's been very civil and informative, no bombs lobbed and no blood or tears spilled and no naughty words.
The only problem is trying to read through all the stuff Gino posts.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:54 PM

But it all comes back to... this is in Israel's hands to solve. Israel creates most of the problems, Israel is the super-power of the region, and if they really want peace they need to stop pretending to be terrified victims and start behaving like grownups. They should take a lesson from post-WWII reconstruction and start building a peace. And if not, we should just shut off military aid, and eventually foreign aid.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

PIZMOBEACH

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 9:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But it all comes back to... this is in Israel's hands to solve. Israel creates most of the problems, Israel is the super-power of the region, and if they really want peace they need to stop pretending to be terrified victims and start behaving like grownups. They should take a lesson from post-WWII reconstruction and start building a peace. And if not, we should just shut off military aid, and eventually foreign aid.

You're not trying to stir up trouble on my happy thread are you?

It all comes back plenty of blame for both sides, ages of bad intentions. They will be most likely brought to some kind of bargaining table and a cease fire by someone who doesn't have too much negative baggage yet (actually Egypt might be able to, but not the UN) - most likely B.O.
Amidst all of this suckage there's a huge opportunity to broadcast a LOUD signal of who he is and how he intends to handle world affairs.

GINOBIFFARONI

Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Mind you look at some past acts...

Well, it's nice to see that you've dropped any pretense of balance and come out as a flaming anti-semite at last.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

History isn't balance ?

or are you denying these things happened Geez

The way I see it you are standing judgement on one groups actions without even questioning the actions of the other group

shall I call you a bigot ?

I would rather not go there

Lets party like its 1939

GINOBIFFARONI

Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But it all comes back to... this is in Israel's hands to solve. Israel creates most of the problems, Israel is the super-power of the region, and if they really want peace they need to stop pretending to be terrified victims and start behaving like grownups. They should take a lesson from post-WWII reconstruction and start building a peace. And if not, we should just shut off military aid, and eventually foreign aid.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

or we wait until Iran builds some nukes, and we can see if that creates a level playing field.

Nothing brings out honest negotiation like fear of losing.

Lets party like its 1939

KWICKO

Thursday, January 15, 2009 1:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Bin Laden, on Tape, Urges Holy War Over Gaza

Wed Jan 14th

Mr. Potato Head "Re-re-resurfaces"

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/15/world/middleeast/15mideast.html?_r=1
&ref=world

from the article:

“There is only one strong way to bring the return of Al Aqsa and Palestine, and that is jihad in the path of God,” Mr. bin Laden said in the 22-minute audiotape, according to The Associated Press. “The duty is to urge people to jihad and to enlist the youth into jihad brigades.”

Given imho that we need an ally in that region, and given this kind of behaviour, who you gonna pick if not Israel?

Iraq?

I thought they were supposed to be our ally in the region, that bright shining beacon of democracy. After all, they greeted us as liberators, right?

And Bin Laden is a perfect example of Frem's earlier comment about some people just being assholes for the sake of being assholes.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

SIGNYM

Thursday, January 15, 2009 1:31 AM

Quote:
You're not trying to stir up trouble on my happy thread are you?

It all comes back plenty of blame for both sides, ages of bad intentions

I'm not talking about BLAME. I'm talking about... WHO HAS THE POWER TO MAKE THIS RIGHT?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:43 AM

Yeah, but OBL is a dead asshole, and therefore of little concern to me - he's been dead since like December 01, but the powers that be wanna keep him in play as just another emmanuel goldstein.

As for the stuff Geeze pointed out - I am well aware that ole Jeffie boy has some of the same issues PN does in regards to the topic, but from a purely historical/evidence standpoint, the folks who wound up running the state of israel did indeed do that shit, and never seem to get called on it when they cry howl and whine about someone else doing it to them.

And I wouldn't really reccommend Egypt as peacemaker given that they've been on the recieving end of a few too many israeli excesses themselves to be exactly rational about it - and while arguably a more interested party since a stable middle east is of value to them, nobody trusts the russians either, or us, both of which have a lot to do with afghanistan, although not limited to that.

It's a real hassle finding an honest broker when everyones hands are so dirty, and the UN is both fairly corrupt and near powerless - were that not the case, or if that could be mitigated, I'd reccomend sending in a UN force with a far more active ROE and a BIG stick of troops backed up by hague observers at platoon level and as many independant media as I could convince to go there.

But again, that'd cost money and resources that nobody seems willing to invest in the regions stability - but seem all too eager to invest in it's destabilisation because they've crapped on everyone around so long they're scared that if they ever do get their shit together they might be considering payback.

Kind of a stupid thought, that is, since it evidences a total lack of understanding about the territorial nature of the cultures involved - they'll chase you off their land with fire and fury, sure... but ain't too keen on the idea of anything past that cause it leaves their own land undefended and isn't worth the trouble, that mindset hearkens back to a certain tribalism within their roots, and not understanding this is a big part of why peace efforts by outsiders in the middle east so often fail.

Most brawls over there come down to the simple concept of "get off MY land" - which given israels continous border expansion pushing the palestinians into a smaller and smaller area, is pissing *everyone* over there off, remove everything else, and that right there is the very root of the problem.

Every foot of palestinian land taken by force is an outright act of war, whether we acknowledge this or not, and regardless of all else, this will NOT stop until the land grabbing does, period.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:59 AM

Quote:
The only problem is trying to read through all the stuff Gino posts.

ya, that's the sort of time bomb i meant, no offense Gino, it's not you specifically, these threads are full of long posts. We're all spending an awful lot of time nitpicking a war we have no power over and understand pretty well.

Oh, for the hoffer thread. I might create it. It will get it's own little logo to indicate that all posts <200 words, or otherwise ignored until edited. :)

Oh, and check out that avatar magic:
They used to be interchangeable, but now Mike is clearly a sniper kitten with a starfish, and Frem is a vengeful anime hottie. :)

KWICKO

Thursday, January 15, 2009 3:00 AM

Just to insert a tiny bit of levity into this heated debate...

One of the gun websites I was on had a thread about the Romak PSL "sniper" rifle, and someone mentioned that Hamas snipers are using the Romanian-built PSL - to which the first reply was, "Funny - Israeli snipers are using F-16s with smart bombs."

It's so... wrong. But still I had a chortle.

But it kinda points up what Signy's talking about - one side has all the REAL weapons, and seems much more interested in using those than in utilizing any kind of diplomacy. Both sides apparently agree with Carl von Clausewitz, author of On War, in which he stated that "war is the continuation of state policy by other means."

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, January 15, 2009 3:25 AM

Actually, pondering the avatar issue, DT...

The irony of it - Lucy is (if you've ever seen Elfen Lied) a lot like israel in her actions, that whole amazingly disproportionate response thing.

I mean, she has her reasons, but that don't make her any less a monster for it.
(and far worse is that she seems to get off on it!)

One of the mysteries of life I'd like to solve in my lifetime is to find out if there really is a path of redemption for those so far gone down that road, something David Drake addressed in the book Redliners.

Preventing things before that is of course the best solution, but what if we *could* fix the broken ones ?

Something to think about.

-Frem
*Redliners is available at the Baen Free Library for those interested, in several formats complete with reader software.
http://www.baen.com/library/

KWICKO

Thursday, January 15, 2009 3:29 AM

Quote:

One of the mysteries of life I'd like to solve in my lifetime is to find out if there really is a path of redemption for those so far gone down that road, something David Drake addressed in the book Redliners.

Wasn't that kind of the whole premise of Angel? The fight to redeem yourself from being the worst of the worst?

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, January 15, 2009 5:10 AM

Redemption is an interesting an ambiguous notion. I mean, I don't believe in good and evil. I'm totally non-violent, and I write stories that are more violent than anything I've ever read. I think it's a karmic balance. I deal a lot with characters of this Lucy type, makes me want to see elvenlied.

Angel is a simplistic storyline. Joss does characters well. Firefly was the first really good solid arc attempt, I'm not sure BDM carried it through, but there was a lot more world creation.

I think Frem is talking about more sincere character complexity. One of the major characters in the story I'm writing goes down that road very very very far. Actually, two characters do, but one that I've been focusing on. I think if someone else were writing the story, she'd just be the arch villain and the mindless good guys would saddle up in words of one syllable to destroy her. But I am so-o-o pleased at the moment with her character arc.

Characters evolve. They develop, change, and yet, there's a consistent thread.

I get really annoyed with the magical redemption. It's like the way my sister gets with medical miracle cures. I just want to throw the book/dvd/etc. The sudden unexplainable reversal is just as bad, like Xena, suddenly, oh, I just flipped over a card that says "You are now Good."

But that doesn't mean that it's a road from evil to good.

Do you write? Fiction I mean.

ODESSA762

Thursday, January 15, 2009 6:13 AM

This might explain why the Izzy's target 'civilian vehicles' and 'red cross vehicles' now-&-then:

http://current.com/items/89686892/why_does_israel_target_ambulances_ca
rrying_civilians_must_see_video_of_zionist_oppression_included.htm

The fact of the matter is this ... if Hamas and the other assholes would just stop lobbing rockets/mortars/whatever into Israel, and if they would agree to a "Live & Let Live" policy, the embargos & blockades would end. The Izzy's would let Gaza be. Hamas just can't handle that. Does anyone think the Izzy's really WANT to be involved in Gaza? As someone else stated earlier, Hamas is the party that always breaks the truce...and the Izzy's eventually HAVE to respond.

The struggle going on between these two nations is a sort of Darwinism...nature should just be allowed to take it's course...and the Izzy's should just get on with it & get it over with. They should just crush Hamas completely. If the Izzy's decide to really hammer Hamas/Palestine, no other nation/group in that region is in a position to do anything to stop them. Hell, the Egyptians would help, lol.

The US should not provide all kinds of financial aid to the Izzy's, though. On the other hand, the US spends all kinds of money all over the region, no just on Israel. The US should just pick a side & get on with it as well. Perhaps the US should just cut them all off and let the chips fall where they may, screw it.

The whole situation is tiresome, pathetic, infuriating & disgusting.

PIZMOBEACH

Thursday, January 15, 2009 3:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Odessa762:
The whole situation is tiresome, pathetic, infuriating & disgusting.

That line is a fitting way to close this thread now that it has been banished to Troll country.

Apologies to any/all who were offended.

JAYNEZTOWN

Monday, October 9, 2023 8:45 AM

censorship moving it to the TROLL thread?

Iranian officials spent weeks helping Hamas plan its attack on Israel, WSJ reports

https://www.businessinsider.com/iranian-officials-helped-hamas-plan-de
adly-attack-on-israel-2023-10

Nonstop rocket intercepts above the skies of central #Israel tonight. Hamas is now targeting the airport.

https://twitter.com/insiderscorner/status/1711126421433667789

JAYNEZTOWN

Thursday, May 23, 2024 4:11 PM

Troll County!

sandbox politics

Meta's Oversight Board flooded with comments about ‘from the river to the sea’ debate
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/facebook-oversight-board-flo
oded-comments-river-sea-israel-palestine-rcna153367

JAYNEZTOWN

Tuesday, July 1, 2025 7:27 PM

Korean YouTuber That Traveled To Palestine In 2022 Showed What Garbage People They Are And How They Hate Anyone Who Isn't A Palestinian
https://vidmax.com/video/234016-korean-youtuber-that-traveled-to-pales
tine-in-2022-showed-what-garbage-people-they-are-and-how-they-hate-anyone-who-isn-t-a-palestinian

58 killed in intensified Israeli strikes in Gaza, ahead of another ceasefire push
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-israel-evacuations-bombardment-whit
e-house-1.7574042