Mal and Zoe

POSTED BY: paintitblack
UPDATED: Sunday, November 25, 2007 12:14
VIEWED: 21015
PAGE 1 of 1

PAINTITBLACK

Sunday, June 3, 2007 6:34 AM

I love the fact that Joss creates strong platonic relationships between men and women but....

Is Wash right to be worried about the strong bond between Mal and Zoe?

Were they ever involved romantically?

And if not, is Wash correct when he says in War Stories that it is more of a threat that they weren't and there may be some unresolved issues between them?

RIVERGIRL

Sunday, June 3, 2007 11:46 AM

no

no

no

Also, I can kill you with my brain.

AGENTROUKA

Sunday, June 3, 2007 12:50 PM

I don't think so.

If anything had happened in the past, Zoe would have told Wash, I'm sure. It would be much easier to soothe Wash's fears with a story of why they broke up, after all, than lie to him about something like this.

And I don't think there is something to be worried about. We've never been shown even a moment of sexual tension between them, and they were awfully light-hearted about their teasing pretend-kiss at the end of "War Stories".

They're blunt and honest with each other, in good ways and bad, so if there had ever been an interest, I think it would have been voiced, because tension between them would harm their machine-like team work and mess with their mutual trust.

That, and I think it'd just be a shame to ruin the platonic relationship between them, from a writerly perspective. Their bond transcends gender. It's not sexual, not romantic, not quite family. Two people who's souls bonded because they survived hell together. A great team. Unique on tv and thus refreshing and beautiful.

PAINTITBLACK

Sunday, June 3, 2007 9:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I don't think so.

They're blunt and honest with each other, in good ways and bad, so if there had ever been an interest, I think it would have been voiced, because tension between them would harm their machine-like team work and mess with their mutual trust.

That, and I think it'd just be a shame to ruin the platonic relationship between them, from a writerly perspective. Their bond transcends gender. It's not sexual, not romantic, not quite family. Two people who's souls bonded because they survived hell together. A great team. Unique on tv and thus refreshing and beautiful.

Wonderfully put. I think so too, but then I totally understood Wash when he said that he would have preferred if Zoe and Mal had been together at some stage.
I can see why Wash would feel sensitive about their relationship, but its true, I couldnt see Zoe lying about it if it had happened.
Although she does try to protect Wash's feelings sometimes.....

NBZ

Sunday, June 3, 2007 11:38 PM

The fact that on jobs there is entirely the chance Zoe will play as Mal's wife (as in The Train Job) must be especially grating - even if Wash not the jealous type.

The fact that people buy Mal and Zoe (probably more than Zoe and Wash) in a relationship must be a hard pill to swallow.

For what it's worth, I never questioned Zoe being a second in command to Mal 'til I read fanfiction.

I had no issues with it. I did not see it as Zoe being beholden to Mal in some way, but just that she trusted his judgement - sometimes more so than her own (In Bushwacked she more or less waits for Mal to confirm it's Reavers that hit - even though the script tells us her own thoughts were not too far from that track.)

I think alot of it has to do with the current climate of entertainment where there is only true love and only of one type. Either you hate someone or you are in love with them. or both. Firefly for me was above that. Better than.

RIVER6213

Monday, June 4, 2007 2:27 AM

Zoe follows Mal because she trusts his judgment; she has faith in his decisions for the most part because his judgement and decision making saved her ass in too many rough situations. Mal trust Zoe because she's a realist, and VERY pragmatic, and she doenst hesitate when the going gets rough. Both of these characters are complete when together when action or solace is needed. If there were a man on this planet like Mal (And there isn't) I would be his partner also like Zoe meaning that there is no good man on-the-Earth that-is. That line alone should speak volumes to all of you.

-River

AGENTROUKA

Monday, June 4, 2007 8:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by paintitblack:
Wonderfully put. I think so too, but then I totally understood Wash when he said that he would have preferred if Zoe and Mal had been together at some stage.
I can see why Wash would feel sensitive about their relationship, but its true, I couldnt see Zoe lying about it if it had happened.
Although she does try to protect Wash's feelings sometimes.....

"War Stories" is all about this subject, and it resolves it, too, so really, the episode answers all your questions.

Part of what makes Wash's insecurity about Mal worse is that Zoe is downright incapable of putting into words what shaped their relationship into one of such trust and loyalty, because he has never been through such horror as she and Mal have together. In his world, this closeness but be romantic or sexual, because he is lacking their experience.

Niska's torture chamber becomes that experience for Wash and he gains that perspective and context of trusting someone else with his life. Mal, in particular.

He understands. Which is the one good thing to come out of the whole debacle and probably the point of the entire episode.

From that point on, the Mal-centered conflict disappears between Wash and Zoe.

It, of course, leaves the "Zoe sometimes discounts Wash's opinion as irrelevant because she's not ready to truly move on with her life" conflict. But that's independent of Mal.

TERRI

Tuesday, June 5, 2007 4:34 AM

I agree 100%. That's what I always loved about Zoe and Mal's relationship. To be able to trust and depend on this man so much, and have be totally separated from a romantic relationship is so refreshing. Whenever you'd see this kind of relationship on another show, it was always this will they won't they, and even when it wasn't, it would always arrive at that at some point. Look at the X-Files, for heaven's sake look at Xena. But Zoe loved her husband, and that wasn't ever in question. Whether or not she completely respected him, well, that's something different altogether. Still, there was just something about that camaraderie, and genuine respect that I just loved; and I never felt was in danger.

RIVERFLAN

Saturday, September 1, 2007 9:14 PM

My personal take on the Mal-Zoe-Wash relationship is that Mal is Zoe's brother, of a sort, like they would protect each other no matter what, and Wash is her laughter, the guy who helps her forget the war. Mal/Zoe wouldn't work, because Mal, in a way, is the war.

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

WYTCHCROFT

Saturday, September 1, 2007 9:20 PM

you can pretty much figure joss and co. would've dropped some back story motive here if they got the chance to make an epsisode out of it. Why Zoe follows Mal post-Serenity valley. some secret we don't know.

but NOT a 'romance/love/' bond in the superficial sense. duty, loyalty,trust, reliance -add your own here- form the core of what they share. Firefly is about All Kinds of Love.

Wash has issues, but when people are that close - who wouldn't?

NBZ

Saturday, September 1, 2007 11:51 PM

I really want to see a split between Mal and Zoe. Just because it is a strong bond. The only way to test how strong is to apply some force.

It is also a good arc. Start off with Zoe being the right side of Mal's brain. later on show the differences.

For some reason I always end up breaking "shatterproof" rulers.

VETERAN

Sunday, September 2, 2007 1:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Zoe follows Mal because she trusts his judgment; she has faith in his decisions for the most part because his judgement and decision making saved her ass in too many rough situations....

I don't know about this, I forget the episode but Zoe and Kaylee had the following exchange....

"Zoe: Captain'll come up with a plan.
Kaylee: Well, that's good... right?
Zoe: Possibly you're not recalling some of his previous plans."

Definitely not a vote of confidence. Zoe follows Mal because of the bond that was forged as they got through the war (especially Serenity Valley).

RIVER6213

Sunday, September 2, 2007 3:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Zoe follows Mal because she trusts his judgment; she has faith in his decisions for the most part because his judgement and decision making saved her ass in too many rough situations....

I don't know about this, I forget the episode but Zoe and Kaylee had the following exchange....

"Zoe: Captain'll come up with a plan.
Kaylee: Well, that's good... right?
Zoe: Possibly you're not recalling some of his previous plans."

Definitely not a vote of confidence. Zoe follows Mal because of the bond that was forged as they got through the war (especially Serenity Valley).

True, but I also think that it is because Mal is a VERY motivated fighter, and he is without a doubt a leader with all the qualities that a leader has. Basically he's a natural born leader which is why Zoe follows him. Mal isn't the smartest leader but he knows how to get things done. Case in point is the Kirk Spock relationship. Spock is without a doubt smarter than Kirk, but Kirk has some serious leadership qualities that Spock lacks. In the grand scheme of things Kirk would survive and Spock would die, but you put them together and they both survive by filling in the gapes that they both lack. The same goes for Mal and Zoe.

-River

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

Sunday, September 2, 2007 9:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Case in point is the Kirk Spock relationship.

Comparing Firefly characters to Star Trek characters makes my brain cry. Meaning that in fun, of course. (Still meaning it, but still, all in fun.)

I'm not sure there is a great secret as to why Zoe continued to follow Mal. Maybe there is (that is up to Joss), but I always believed it was primarily because neither of them had any home or family left to go to. That solution makes sense, and as a firm beliver in Ockham's Razor, I figure that is most likely the reason.

As for Mal being characterized as not being too bright, I think we often don't give Mal enough credit. Usually his plans would have gone off without a hitch were it not for some unforeseen complication. (e.g., a train car full of feds, which in itself still would not have prevented the success of the job, but a town full of sick miners did) Mal's big failing in the planning realm, to my mind, was that he always failed to make a back-up plan, something he usually would not have had the luxury of in the war, where he learned his planning skills. He did learn initiative and the ability to improvise (note that in both war flashbacks in the show, he winds up taking over the responsibilities of a neutralized superior, commissioned, officer), which is why even when his plans fail he gets his crew back alive. (It is refreshing to see a main hero that is not necessarily smarter, faster, more skilled, or otherwise "better" than the other characters, that just excels out of pure toughness and force of personality, but that is another post...) That said, I think Zoe is justified in continuing to follow Mal, whatever is her own motivation in not striking out on her own.

I've heard it said (in a book series by A.A. Attanasio) that there is a goal, a purpose, to be found on this earth, one that is of a kind of goodness denied even to God: To serve a worthy master. Maybe this is what Zoe is looking for.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

WYTCHCROFT

Sunday, September 2, 2007 9:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:

As for Mal being characterized as not being too bright, I think we often don't give Mal enough credit.

agreed.

Quote:
Mal's big failing in the planning realm, to my mind, was that he always failed to make a back-up plan, something he usually would not have had the luxury of in the war, where he learned his planning skills.

absolutely!

Quote:
(It is refreshing to see a main hero that is not necessarily smarter, faster, more skilled, or otherwise "better" than the other characters, that just excels out of pure toughness and force of personality, but that is another post...)

agreed once more - and a post you should start my friend.

Just to add that Mal's emotional complexity (tho' easily overstated) and resourcefulness also lift him out of the ranks of potential bullly-boy, thick neck hero no-brainers... that litter action genre pieces - where intelligence equals villainy.

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

Sunday, September 2, 2007 10:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
Just to add that Mal's emotional complexity (tho' easily overstated) and resourcefulness also lift him out of the ranks of potential bullly-boy, thick neck hero no-brainers... that litter action genre pieces - where intelligence equals villainy.

I agree that Mal's emotional complexity can be easily, and often is, overstated. I think the last thing Joss (or Mal) would want is for any of us Browncoats to perceive Mal as "angsty" or...dare I say it...emo.

And after all, understated is Joss's stock in trade. There are always things about the plots and characters that ARE in your face, but it is the understated layers that make the show SING, even to people who don't consciously realize they are in there. They just strike a chord, somehow, even if it is only subconsciously.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

WYTCHCROFT

Sunday, September 2, 2007 10:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:

And after all, understated is Joss's stock in trade. There are always things about the plots and characters that ARE in your face, but it is the understated layers that make the show SING,

and why Fillion is such a soul find for him - Fillion can suggest so much - so many BIG moments (and character insights) hinge on the TINIEST shifts in his eyes etc

which is a bitch for a fic writer!

have you seen drive? he was a must for that show too - aches of back story in a single glance.
Not much comedy there of course!

NBZ

Sunday, September 2, 2007 10:15 PM

Alex Tully WAS Malcolm Reynolds though.

"You wanna meet the REAL me?" Vs "You wanna meet the real Alex Tully?"

Planning wise Mal does seem to go for the more direct approach.

Imagined scenario:

Zoe: So, you want to walk in through the front?
Mal: Yes.
Wash: But what about the part that we all it's an ambush?
Mal: They won't expect it. Come on Zo, it'll be fun!

which does work. After all who else would walk right into a known ambush? It is his forte. (In the Pilot episode he walks into Patience's trap. In the BDM into the Operative's. Both times knowing the score.)

WYTCHCROFT

Sunday, September 2, 2007 10:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Alex Tully WAS Malcolm Reynolds though.

"You wanna meet the REAL me?" Vs "You wanna meet the real Alex Tully?"

i dunno... his body language made him seem different to me.

Quote:
Planning wise Mal does seem to go for the more direct approach...
which does work. After all who else would walk right into a known ambush? It is his forte.

Definitely! LOL

I've played with the idea that it's some kind of post-serenity valley death wish (and it MIGHT be, so post-BDM he might lose this)
but, honestly?, i think it's just his perverse and hornery nature. no shifting.

NBZ

Sunday, September 2, 2007 10:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Alex Tully WAS Malcolm Reynolds though.

"You wanna meet the REAL me?" Vs "You wanna meet the real Alex Tully?"

i dunno... his body language made him seem different to me.

He had two differing poses. One was the stooped one, which he started with (The "Alex tully from hasting Nebraska"). Later he got more "bad ass", closer to Malcolm Reynolds IMO (the Alex Tully who was an ex-getaway driver).

Quote:

Quote:
Planning wise Mal does seem to go for the more direct approach...
which does work. After all who else would walk right into a known ambush? It is his forte.

Definitely! LOL

I've played with the idea that it's some kind of post-serenity valley death wish (and it MIGHT be, so post-BDM he might lose this)
but, honestly?, i think it's just his perverse and hornery nature. no shifting.

There is some stubbornness as well. "You gonna set a trap for me? Well, I will walk right in, and still walk back out". Then there is the thing no one really expects you to walk straight into a trap.

It also leaves the most flexibility to what can be done. Does he have a death wish? I doubt it. (though it is possible - Zoe wears body armour. Does he?)

An opposing view - Does he consider himself invincible? invincible as in he will not (be allowed to) die until he has faced every other misery imagineable, and all the crew is dead?

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

Tuesday, September 4, 2007 5:25 PM

Survival is what Mal DOES. His toughness is what gets him through. Everything else has been taken from him, but he has sworn that his life is HIS and nobody will tell him how to live it or take it from him. Just look at what he goes through in Out of Gas, simply because the man doesn't know how to die.

Also let us not forget: "We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty." He knows that the troops didn't LOSE Serenity Valley, the higher ups just QUIT it. He came through that, so what does all this seem to him?

At the same time, he knows it is the people around him that keep him flying (see Out of Gas, Our Mrs. Reynolds, War Stories), and he relies on them and at the same time gives them the devotion they deserve (see War Stories (how he kept Wash alive) and Safe), even when he is bossing them around. Imagine that power, having that level of confidence in yourself but still believing in those around you. THAT is mighty.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

WYTCHCROFT

Tuesday, September 4, 2007 5:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:

An opposing view - Does he consider himself invincible? invincible as in he will not (be allowed to) die until he has faced every other misery imagineable, and all the crew is dead?

interesting notion - like jeff bridges in fearless.

side bar - god, bridges would be great in the 'verse...

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, September 4, 2007 6:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
An opposing view - Does he consider himself invincible?

My take is that he doesn't particularly care. I mean, I don't think he wants to die, but life isn't so very precious to him as it is to most people. And like schoolboyswink says, more than anything Mal means to do his own business his way. Like: Death? Whatever. Seen it. Seen it plenty, and if it's comin' my way I ain't gonna bother steppin' aside. It takes me or it don't. Meantime, I got things to do.

But I think he's more likely to cling to life if he knows folks are depending on him. Such as OoG. He was fighting for 9 lives there, not just his own.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

NBZ

Tuesday, September 4, 2007 11:28 PM

Yeah, I see what you mean. In a deleted scene on Serenity (not sure if it is on the DVD, but I saw it in the original "pitch" version where Joss pitched the show to Fox. before a multitude of changes (Some I agree with, others not so much).), Mal was pissed of at the job with patience because he was gonna get shot. And getting shot was painful. He did not seem to concerned with him potentially ending up dead. Of course this works for both arguments.

One other stall I would like to lay out is the possibility that Zoe did NOT follow Mal due to closeness in the war.

(WHAT?!?!? That is surely Madness!)

And what evidence do I have for such a ridiculous notion? absolutely nothing.

There would have been a ton of survivors from the War. What made Mal special? After all he was her sergeant - and once the war was over, that link is broken. There does not seem to be a group of people who stayed together either, just the two.

One of the reasons she followed him IMO is because he had a plan. Mal always has a plan. Doesn't have to be too bright, but the very existence of one, well that is something.

To support my argument, I will quote myself (from another forums - and yes I am full of it!)

Quote:
Mal - He done right by her. Gave her a life (she is a spacer, he is not), a home (Serenity). He found her a husband (Wash obviously) and a family (Kaylee). He makes his mistakes (Bester, Jayne), but then again so does everybody. Probably could have done better without him, or not, but she did not have to try. Not something she needs to ponder over as she likes her life.

(Notice I did not mention the war?)

and I got the wanted question ("Yes, I noticed - how's come? Too easy?... Does one owe the other something? Maybe even secracy for a bad act? ") allowing me to continue unabated.

Quote:
She does not "Owe" him any debt from the war.

However they were friendly. and afterwards he did not try to take advantage of her.

Besides I do not like the concept of indebted grattitude. 'He saved me in the war. Now I must follow him.'

She lets him make the hard decisions. (In Serenity, the Pilot I am of the opinion Mal was always gonna end Dobson. Only other with the same notion was Jayne. He kept his mouth shut and was eventually forced to end him. Or so he thought...)

She is loyal to him because she generally agrees, and when she don't, he only takes part if she is in.

(taken from http://stillflying.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=613 )

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, September 5, 2007 1:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
One other stall I would like to lay out is the possibility that Zoe did NOT follow Mal due to closeness in the war.

(WHAT?!?!? That is surely Madness!)

You crazy thing! What the heck are you thinking?? LOL!

Interesting idea, actually. A refreshing take... but I must partly disagree. I don't think it fits canon. Mal and Zoe share too much war angst, and it's just the two of them nowadays because they are the only two of their brigade or whatever who survived Serenity Valley

I can see that she depended on Mal's decisiveness after the war, that she'd gotten used to a role as follower. Thing is (to be a prig about canon LOL!) they didn't get Serenity until a few years after the war. And she wasn't exactly yippy-ya-hoo! about it. She was there for Mal already, with none of the goodies of Wash and the crew to make her happy yet.

But I'm with you that she's not so much indebted to Mal. I don't think she feels she *has* to follow him. I think she made a deliberate choice about it. And, as close as they are, she doesn't worship him. She'll tell him off (in her own way) if need be.

As for what the root of their bond is... well, I think surviving Serenity Valley could be enough. The shared experience. But hell, that story is told and that's no fun for fic writers LOL! If we're going to demand more, a bond formed before that, I have a suggestion. But I'm not telling because it's Chapter 11 of my current fic.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

NBZ

Wednesday, September 5, 2007 8:34 PM

It is (good) food for thought. IMO it can be made to fit cannon, but it is not an easy task. and I doubt it would ever be popular. I like being different.

They were the only two from their whatever of 35 (I am not a military person so no idea what they call it), but at the same time Zoe did say there were 150 survivors under his command in the end. What happened to them? Why did they not stick around? Were there no emotional attachments with any of them? These are my driving question. They can be answered in many ways.

Looking forward to reading your chapter 11 to see what you have planned. (just don't forget the 6 beforehand - I am interested in them too!)

This time immediately after defeat is immensely interesting. I don't think I will ever tire over reading different takes.

MSG

Wednesday, September 5, 2007 8:40 PM

Surviving hell brings a bond that is not describable. I think Mal and Zoe have a very deep completely non sexual bond. They were there. No one else was and it's hard to put into exact words what that means unless you've been there yourself. I don't think Wash has any cause for worry. I think that was his insecurity talking but that being a similar situation with Mal showed him what that bond felt like and then he was fine:)

"I'm not all that interested in the mental health of people who want to kill me. "- Leroy Jethro Gibbs

NBZ

Wednesday, September 5, 2007 8:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
Surviving hell brings a bond that is not describable. I think Mal and Zoe have a very deep completely non sexual bond. They were there. No one else was...

From the crew. There would have been a lot of other survivors too. 150 under Mal's command alone.

Yup I agree about it being platonic, but for added reasons to what we normally get.

WYTCHCROFT

Wednesday, September 5, 2007 9:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
Surviving hell brings a bond that is not describable.

PLEASE read the kaylee thread - i'm interested in your views re: Early and the effect on the bond between K and Mal...

stay shiny!

PLATONIST

Thursday, September 6, 2007 12:57 AM

I don't think there is anything "unresolved" between Mal and Zoe, regardless of whether or not they ever did it. They've been threw hell and back together. They know what each other is all about. There are no discoveries or mysteries to be had. They've seen each other at their best and at their worst, as War Stories showed Wash.

And any unresolved sexual tension vibe that Wash was tuning into coming from Mal was from Mal and Inara, which Wash realizes in the comic book. Which of course, Zoe and Kaylee picked up on even before Inara signed the freakin lease agreement.

FREELANCERTEX

Saturday, September 15, 2007 2:09 AM

*lays topic to rest--* wait, comic book? what?

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

PLATONIST

Saturday, September 15, 2007 3:27 AM

The graphic novel? (comic book), "Those Left Behind" Wash confronts Mal on what an "unhealthsome" gig the new job is. And how stupid women make them.

Check it out

FREELANCERTEX

Saturday, September 15, 2007 3:54 AM

wow, never knew that existed. *is dazed*

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

YINYANG

Friday, October 19, 2007 6:05 AM

The relationship between these two, for me, is just so glaringly platonic that I can't read Mal/Zoe stories (like slumming's "Shoulder to Shoulder," the reason I came back to this thread in the first place). I just can't, because there isn't anything in canon which even hints at it. I feel Joss and co. really went out of their way, with big flashing neon lights and all, to say "this relationship is not sexual."

They poked fun at it with Zoe's "you'll scare the women" line, but part of the reason their relationship is the way it is has to do with the fact that I don't think Mal sees her as a woman. I mean, he knows that she is a woman, but he sees her more as a soldier. Even Jayne recognizes that she's attractive without losing sight of her ability to kick his ass; but, it's not on Mal's radar. And, if she were to ever become pregnant it would throw him for a loop ("Zoe can get pregnant? What?"). As much as I don't like the "Zoe is pregnant with Wash's child" post-BDM storyline, I think it would be really funny, and eye-opening for Mal.

In any event, I really don't see Zoe reciprocating his feelings, if he ever had any, once, a long time ago (which I don't think he did).

Quote:
They were the only two from their whatever of 35 (I am not a military person so no idea what they call it), but at the same time Zoe did say there were 150 survivors under his command in the end. What happened to them? Why did they not stick around? Were there no emotional attachments with any of them? These are my driving question. They can be answered in many ways.

I think it's implied that they've been together for most of the war, so they had a bond that went beyond Serenity Valley which most of the others likely didn't have (what are the odds, really?). I always had it in my head that at one point way back Zoe had rank on Mal, but because he did well as a leader he was eventually promoted above her (I don't think they were ever of equal rank).

But, then again, we do see a little bit of an emotional bond they had with another veteran in "The Message" with Tracey. There are plenty of other saps in the 'verse, so they must have left a lasting impression for him to take the effort to seek them out specifically. On the other hand, it may have just worked well for his plans, because they were unknown to his employers, whereas others he might have been able to dupe weren't.

The reason why I think Zoe stayed with Mal beyond the war? She didn't feel any obligation to pay him back for anything, but he needed her and they had a strong bond. I think it was especially important after the war that he have her right there still, this constant strength and buffer during his crisis of faith (and I don't just mean religious). She was the anchor in the storm, and the fact that she could keep going helped him keep going. Now, I think he has the drive to keep going as long as he has Serenity, but I don't think he would have had that "we're still flying; it's enough" attitude without Zoe.

I could see Mal sort of casually trying to convince her to stay, though - "Kinda seems we're in a similar situation [there's no indication that she has anywhere to go back to, either]. Might be we'd work well together." Of course, there's so much subtext there - he probably wouldn't want to admit that he needed her (if he was even aware of it) - and it wouldn't have been reason enough for Zoe to stay with him. Or, conversely, I could see Zoe saying, "Don't have anything lined up. Maybe I'll stay with you 'till something better comes along." Not that she would have looked for something better. And, having them both approach the situation casually is just a way for them not to have to directly acknowledge their bond, partly because they don't need to. It's just magic.

---

(Rules for voting - http://fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=30747&m=542683)

BULLET0IN0THE0BRAINPAN0SQUISH

Friday, October 19, 2007 9:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:

They poked fun at it with Zoe's "you'll scare the women" line, but part of the reason their relationship is the way it is has to do with the fact that I don't think Mal sees her as a woman. I mean, he knows that she is a woman, but he sees her more as a soldier. Even Jayne recognizes that she's attractive without losing sight of her ability to kick his ass; but, it's not on Mal's radar. And, if she were to ever become pregnant it would throw him for a loop ("Zoe can get pregnant? What?"). As much as I don't like the "Zoe is pregnant with Wash's child" post-BDM storyline, I think it would be really funny, and eye-opening for Mal.

This is most probably true. This has happened to me many times with male friends who were too familiar. Although I do wear skirts and girly stuff, somehow the thought that I too am a girl does not register in their thick brains.

I think Mal and Zoe have the "work-wife/husband" relationship. It doesn't mean that they are romantically or sexually involved, but rather, they have the camaraderie and mutual admiration for each other's strengths. In their time in the war, they have probably developed a working relationship that was comfortable and efficient, and in reality, if you've found a friendship like that, would you let go? Those things come rarely. To put it dramatically, in the ugliness of war, friendship and loyalty are probably the only thing to place your hope on. (I just remembered that line from Band of Brothers when they said that they don't care how awful the battle will be, long as the person beside them is a paratrooper... but I digress.)

Though of course, you can't form the relationship by jumping in the middle and saying "I depend on you, we're friends forever." unless you're in the 3rd grade. At one time, it probably crossed both their minds that "Hey, here is a person who understands me and cares for me and he/she's hell to look at. Maybe we could...NAH!" (maybe they would throw up a little in their mouths for having such thoughts too.) Thing is, it's not what you feel that matters, but what you decide to do with it. In time, they've settled into their comfortable roles: Mal as the natural leader, and Zoe as his Yes-woman. When the war ended, those roles held as a matter of fact, like the natural progression of things (I'm thinking it's because Mal went to buy the ship and when he told Zoe about it, she decided right there and then to join him despite her uncertainties to this plan so as to make sure he's gonna be ok. Almost like an older sister.)

Actually, this facet of Mal and Zoe I would really like to explore, but unfortunately I suck at writing fanfic (I can never make the crew sound like themselves. So I have much respect to those who can), so can anyone write a Mal/Zoe for me?

Also: Can anyone tell me Zoe's rank? In the "The Message" she addressed Tracey as "Private", which implies she had a higher rank than him.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

I don't know what I'm saying. I never know what I'm saying.... -River Tam, Serenity (2005)

WYTCHCROFT

Friday, October 19, 2007 9:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
The relationship between these two, for me, is just so glaringly platonic that I can't read Mal/Zoe stories

y'know i am all for character exploration - sometimes a writer is just following a plausible line of enquiry... BUT i finally found a personal line i can't cross with mal/zoe and i AGREE COMPLETELY!
the only physicality i can possiblity imagine would be some callow -- possibily drunk - foolishness on a young mal's part which would have been rapidly rebuffed!!

Mal is posessive of zoe but the motive aint sexual.

great post yin yang - nice follow thru bulletinthebrainpan!:)

SORCHA425

Friday, October 19, 2007 8:33 PM

I have to admit that Zoe was one of the last characters I genuinely liked. I have no favorite quotes from her, albeit that could be the tone and her deadpan delivery, which makes it hard to convey on paper. But it's b/c all the other characters are clearly having problems. Zoe is (for the most part) happily married and is the epitome of loyalty. She and Mal don't argue, trust each other sooo much that it's easy to look at Simon and River b/c of their huge problems.

Another thought: I think one of Wash's problems with Zoe/Mal is that "most people don't get Zoe and me." It's a lot to do with insecurity because he is sensitive about that. He knows Zoe loves him, she knows he loves her, but Mal is handsome and strong, Zoe's beautiful and strong = pretty couple. Wash looks goofy, IS goofy, loves her with the firy passion of a thousand suns, BUT they are just one of those unikely couples. Wash's fears are relieved by the end of "War Stories", but I'm sure he was still touchy, b/c he knows he's not physically hero material.

Hope that all makes sense. Great discussion, by the way! :)

K

PLATONIST

Friday, October 19, 2007 11:51 PM

I suggest reading mal4prez's "Backstories" fanfic.

She is writing a fascinating platonic (so far) look at the moments that bond Mal and Zoe. It's DEEP and LAYERED and all that, but the voices and dialog flow with validation. No question about it, it's Mal and Zoe talk'in.

NCBROWNCOAT

Saturday, October 20, 2007 8:29 PM

Yin Yang and Bulletinthebrainpansquish both hit the nail on the head on Mal and Zoe's relationship.

Older sister, foxhole comrade, working partner, Yes man, and first mate, Zoe is all of that to Mal. He'd be lost without her but a sexual relationship NO WAY!

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:15 AM

Mal must consider Zoe to be like a brother, or maybe sister. Like Brothers-In-Arms. Out of 330,000 Browncoats in Serenity Valley, only 150 survived and she the only one of her squad - that's a lot to go through, and Mal doesn't need anything else from her but what she provides. Loyalty, work, reliability, marksmanship, and comrade (as in friend).
Wash was spending tooooo much time with the drama of handpuppets and dinosaurland. People who watch too much soap operas start to actually think like that.

BULLET0IN0THE0BRAINPAN0SQUISH

Friday, October 26, 2007 2:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Wash was spending tooooo much time with the drama of handpuppets and dinosaurland. People who watch too much soap operas start to actually think like that.

Actually, I think he had a valid reason to be jealous. As he said, it's not the Captain thing, it's the Guy-I-Never-Slept-With thing. Mal and Zoe were, excuse the pun, thick as thieves and they had a rapport that Wash wasn't a part of. It's like watching your wife/girlfriend have a guy bestfriend (who is better-looking and accomplished, as accomplished as Mal can be). It's not as if Wash was being irrationally jealous (I don't think Zoe would've married him if he were prone to drama), and I think the thing that bothered him about Zoe's relationship with Mal is that he's the one she was so attached to that she continually brought Mal into conversations with her husband. I've said before that Mal and Zoe had a 'work-husband/wife' thing going and really, it's not unusual that the real husband/wife gets more'n a mite jealous of their adventures. Wash is not soap-opera-ish, IMO. He was just uncomfortable that his wife is too comfortable with someone other than him.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

I don't know what I'm saying. I never know what I'm saying.... -River Tam, Serenity (2005)

MAL4PREZ

Friday, October 26, 2007 5:40 PM

Somehow I missed all this discussion when it happened... and I missed a fabulous rec! Thanks Platonist!

Anyhow, this thread makes me recall the idea of the Fabric of Firefly. (I forget who first coined the term - in reference to the unlikeliness of the Mal/River pairing - but thank you! It's a fabulous concept.) I see the non-romantic nature of the Mal/Zoe relationship as another part of the FFFabric. More than that, it's yet another way that Joss breaks down barriers and challenges his viewers - are we able to accept a deep, intimate relationship between an attractive woman and a hella hot man (), both het, without attributing that closeness to sex? Are our interests in fiction so completely reliant on sexual tension that every man/woman relationship in a story must have a sexual history or potential for a sexual future?

Yeah, I think Joss has done something rare, and that it really is the Fabric of Mal/Zoe that their bond is independent of sex and romantic love. They see each other as warriors and survivors, not lovers. They respect and care for each other for reasons completely apart from the physical.

I guess there's potential for some random hook-up early on, or a drunken or desperate night that they both regret and don't talk about. Maybe. I'd be so disappointed if Joss gave that to us though, because I find the Mal/Zoe relationship just brilliant as it is. It's unlike anything else I've seen on the little or big screen.

I guess that's why I don't go for this pairing. To me, most fics with Mal/Zoe sex turn ground-breaking storytelling into a common romance tale. It makes me sad.

(And this post is just in case I haven't pissed off enough 'ship communities. Now I'll have the Mal/Zoe lovers hating me too. I'm not trying to be intolerant, really! This is just the way I see the show, and only my measly .02.)

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

CHARLOTTE

Friday, October 26, 2007 5:53 PM

Quote:
Are our interests in fiction so completely reliant on sexual tension that every man/woman relationship in a story must have a sexual history or potential for a sexual future?

Unfortunately, this seems to be the norm. I absolutely love Mal & Zoe's relationship as it is. They fought side by side for over two years in a down and dirty war. I can't see a lot of romance happening during war between soldiers who are really just trying to stay alive. They went through hell together and that forges an incredibly strong bond.

I, too, can't see M/Z, but neither can I see M/R, J/R, or any other non-canon combination. I guess I'm just boring that way!

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:19 AM

A little off topic of Mal & Zoe, but I don't know how far off.

I'm not familiar with how Joss habitually treats his female characters. I've heard Quinten Tarentino has been said to stereotype his females as hookers or soon to be dead.
In FF, Zoe is the only female crew to not be introduced to show or ship naked. In pilot, Inara is honorably servicing random customer in her first scene. In same, River's first scene is erupting nude from her box. In Out of Gas, Mal first sees KayLee nude while bumping Bester.

Although Zoe eventually gets undressed in episodes with Wash, and indicates such in the Pilot, her introduction to us is in Serenity Valley.

Is this a pattern with Joss work? Or is it unique? Either way, does anybody have an idea what this says about how Joss views Zoe?
Does this have an effect on how we are supposed to view Mal & Zoe?
Mal does seem to have an affectionate interaction with Inara, River, KayLee - whether fatherly or flirty.

ASARIAN

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

(...) That, and I think it'd just be a shame to ruin the platonic relationship between them, from a writerly perspective. Their bond transcends gender. It's not sexual, not romantic, not quite family. Two people who's souls bonded because they survived hell together. A great team. Unique on tv and thus refreshing and beautiful.

Quote:

Part of what makes Wash's insecurity about Mal worse is that Zoe is downright incapable of putting into words what shaped their relationship into one of such trust and loyalty, because he has never been through such horror as she and Mal have together. In his world, this closeness but be romantic or sexual, because he is lacking their experience.

Niska's torture chamber becomes that experience for Wash and he gains that perspective and context of trusting someone else with his life. Mal, in particular.

He understands. Which is the one good thing to come out of the whole debacle and probably the point of the entire episode.

Beautiful. Had a kinda poetry to it. Definitely. And I couldn't agree more. And I wish I could add something to it, but I can't. Which is what happens... when you can't agree more. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

ASARIAN

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez
:
Somehow I missed all this discussion when it happened... and I missed a fabulous rec! Thanks Platonist!

Anyhow, this thread makes me recall the idea of the Fabric of Firefly. (I forget who first coined the term - in reference to the unlikeliness of the Mal/River pairing - but thank you! It's a fabulous concept.) I see the non-romantic nature of the Mal/Zoe relationship as another part of the FFFabric. More than that, it's yet another way that Joss breaks down barriers and challenges his viewers - are we able to accept a deep, intimate relationship between an attractive woman and a hella hot man (), both het, without attributing that closeness to sex? Are our interests in fiction so completely reliant on sexual tension that every man/woman relationship in a story must have a sexual history or potential for a sexual future?

Yeah, I think Joss has done something rare, and that it really is the Fabric of Mal/Zoe that their bond is independent of sex and romantic love. They see each other as warriors and survivors, not lovers. They respect and care for each other for reasons completely apart from the physical.

I guess there's potential for some random hook-up early on, or a drunken or desperate night that they both regret and don't talk about. Maybe. I'd be so disappointed if Joss gave that to us though, because I find the Mal/Zoe relationship just brilliant as it is. It's unlike anything else I've seen on the little or big screen.

I guess that's why I don't go for this pairing. To me, most fics with Mal/Zoe sex turn ground-breaking storytelling into a common romance tale. It makes me sad.

(And this post is just in case I haven't pissed off enough 'ship communities. Now I'll have the Mal/Zoe lovers hating me too. I'm not trying to be intolerant, really! This is just the way I see the show, and only my measly .02.)

Thinking of the lyrics of that song ("You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you," lol), I think it was actually yours truly who first coined the fabric of Firefly thingy. :) Why, even if I didn't, I still think you hit the nail right on the head! I've always felt that the non-sexual love is the real Firefly magic. It's what makes our souls resonate with Firefly on such a deep level: that sense of "This is IT! This is what I've been waiting for my whole life!" And I also believe that the experience is so rare, that half the 'Verse, when asked, probably wouldn't even be able to express what draws them so to the Firefly light.

See, this here's why I think Joss is a genius. Yes, the dialogue is great, the hick speak, the humor, it's all brilliant. But it's the love that makes the soul ache to be a part of it! And why, in turn, parting with it is such sweet sorrow.

So, yes, please, let's not make the Mal/Zoe relationship a sexual one! When Mr. Whedon gets up in the morning and looks into the mirror, I hope he will continue to tell himself, "Joss, don't sully this!" As I'm sure he won't.

Ennyhows, thanks for sayin', mal4prez!

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

BLUEBOMBER

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 6:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bullet0in0the0brainpan0squish:

Can anyone tell me Zoe's rank? In the "The Message" she addressed Tracey as "Private", which implies she had a higher rank than him.

I've been told there is a deleted scene in "Serenity" where her name appears on a list as Corporal Zoe Alleyne. (Maybe someone with the DVD or the Official Firefly Companion can verify this, since I don't have it yet myself. I know. I'm so ashamed.)

Actually, for me this would raise another question about Mal and Zoe's shared background, particularly regarding their respective ranks. It is sometimes stated that Zoe was "career" military whereas Mal volunteered after the war started. It wouldn't necessarily be strange that he outranks her, since during times of war promotions tend to be handed out pretty quick (i.e. based more on merit than on time-in-service), but given her skill and military background, shouldn't Zoe have been a sergeant by the time they got to Serenity Valley? Assuming that she and Mal are in their early thirties around the time of the "Serenity" pilot, she should've been more than junior enlisted by then.

Back to the main topic: The thought of Mal and Zoe being in a romantic relationship never crossed my mind until "War Stories," and after that the issue was laid to rest as far as I'm concerned.

"Mwah ha ha ha...mine is an evil laugh. Now die."

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Thinking of the lyrics of that song ("You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you," lol),

Well, of course the song is about ME!

Quote:
I think it was actually yours truly who first coined the fabric of Firefly thingy.

Nicely done my dear! It is so very fitting - the idea that there's a whole slew of basic... um... truths... themes... things... woven together to make the FF verse so unique and lovable. Absolutely true.

Quote:
So, yes, please, let's not make the Mal/Zoe relationship a sexual one! When Mr. Whedon gets up in the morning and looks into the mirror, I hope he will continue to tell himself, "Joss, don't sully this!" As I'm sure he won't.

Well... sometimes I fear... just because Cordy slept with Connor and even if she was all demon-god-taken-over and it made sense in the end, it still damaged me and my faith in Joss, just a little. Just... ick! Ew! Gross!

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueBomber:
Actually, for me this would raise another question about Mal and Zoe's shared background, particularly regarding their respective ranks. It is sometimes stated that Zoe was "career" military whereas Mal volunteered after the war started. It wouldn't necessarily be strange that he outranks her, since during times of war promotions tend to be handed out pretty quick

*jumps up and raises hand!!!* I have a theory!! But I'm not gonna share it here cause it'll be posted in the next few weeks as Chapter 11 of my fic Back Stories II...

(I'm not often such a shameless fic-whore, really I'm not, but I wrote this chapter last August - as in 2006! and the posting is finally getting so very close...)

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

PLATONIST

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 2:54 AM

Mal/Zoe, Mal/River, Mal/Jayne, Mal/Simon, Mal/Kaylee, Mal/Fantasy OC, Mal/Saffron, Mal/Inara...for a guy that supposedly has intimacy issues, he sure does see a lot of play!

And the only canon time he does GET some play... she like DIES... and the one he really WANTS to "pull on her pigtails", runs away and stays away, until he goes and gets her and then still no play, because he has to go and save an innocent young girl and the Universe too.

The "fabric" (thanks asarian) is woven with family, love, and home. So, please stop turning the relationships on Firefly into melodramatic Hospital or Crime Show romances of the week, even if Joss would have gone there. Which I don't think he would have, considering what he says on the DVD commentaries.

Can't wait for Chapter 11, mal4prez

BLUEBOMBER

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 6:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Mal/Zoe, Mal/River, Mal/Jayne, Mal/Simon, Mal/Kaylee, Mal/Fantasy OC, Mal/Saffron, Mal/Inara...for a guy that supposedly has intimacy issues, he sure does see a lot of play!

Mal/Simon I get, but...Mal/Jayne?

Now that's just downright unsettling.

"Mwah ha ha ha...mine is an evil laugh. Now die."

PLATONIST

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 6:42 PM

What about Mal/Wash? I couldn't even type that one!

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Thursday, November 22, 2007 10:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueBomber:
Quote:
Originally posted by bullet0in0the0brainpan0squish:

Can anyone tell me Zoe's rank? In the "The Message" she addressed Tracey as "Private", which implies she had a higher rank than him.

I've been told there is a deleted scene in "Serenity" where her name appears on a list as Corporal Zoe Alleyne. (Maybe someone with the DVD or the Official Firefly Companion can verify this, since I don't have it yet myself. I know. I'm so ashamed.)

On page 92 of the Visual Companion right after the Operative crosses to Mal's military record, he goes to Zoe's which has her rank and maiden name as mentioned above, and he says in effect that she seems to have been career army (small case Army). At least part of this scene was in the CE as extended scenes, Joss commented about how much they reworked this scene and why it was excised.

AMDOBELL

Thursday, November 22, 2007 12:34 PM

I love the bond between Mal and Zoe, it is like bedrock. I think what was so defining for them during the War was the way in which they came to such a deep understanding of each other. A friendship born of so many things and appreciation of each other's skills and qualities that mesh and compliment one to the other in ways that fill any lack. I think that as damaged and broken as war and loss made them, sticking together makes them complete. Gives them back a compass that will be forever be true. It isn't about sex, never was, it is much deeper and more fundamental than scratching nature's urge. This is soul deep and for the most part unspoken. It is why I think Zoe cannot define her relationship with Mal to Wash. She isn't hiding anything, it is just that what binds them is so deep, so instinctive, it is beyond words. It just *is* and I think Zoe sometimes gets irritated with Wash for wanting it to be quantified, brought out into the harsh light of curious eyes, instead of just accepting it which is what she does.

I also think that because Mal and Zoe know each other so well, have watched each other's backs through more sticky situations that you could shake a stick at, it is natural for them to carry on doing it afterwards. They trust each other implicitly and I don't think either would want anyone else taking that role on for them. It is why Mal tells Wash that he will always take Zoe with him on jobs, he doesn't explain why because it isn't something he would ever want to voice and to his mind should be so obvious as to not need explaining. It just *is*. Zoe always understood that some things Mal would never put into words and she is the same. They communicate so much through a look and I think that unspoken connection irked Wash because he felt excluded by it and being the husband felt somehow cheated out of something that was never his. War Stories was such a brilliant vehicle for addressing not only his insecurities but his understanding of what made the bond between his wife and his Captain work.

As for rank, Zoe was a Corporal. Although described as 'career army' she was never in it for the ambition of rank. There was a job to do and she would do it. Mal, though far more impulsive than Zoe in the field was a natural leader, able to think quickly on his feet and inspire others to follow. Zoe quickly grasped that men would natually follow him whether or not his plan was a good one. Mal was the one making plans, being decisive and instilling confidence in others to do the impossible. If Zoe had wanted to go up the ranks she could have done and no one could have touched her but she would not have been happy, it would not have been her element. I think she watched and assessed and made the practical decision to follow Mal and once she had done so found that by watching his back and filling in any gaps left by his over abundance of confidence meant they both came through it to live and fight another day. Zoe found her element in Mal. She knows he isn't perfect and isn't shy in telling him up front and bluntly when he is being stupid (ie "Sir, I think you have a problem with your brain being missing"). But the lattitude Mal gives her is not something he accords anyone else and she knows that.

Ali D :~)
You can't take the sky from me...

MERRYK

Thursday, November 22, 2007 5:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Mal/Zoe, Mal/River, Mal/Jayne, Mal/Simon, Mal/Kaylee, Mal/Fantasy OC, Mal/Saffron, Mal/Inara...for a guy that supposedly has intimacy issues, he sure does see a lot of play!

Mal/Simon I get, but...Mal/Jayne?

I only get Mal/Simon if it's a friendship/male bonding thing...they do have an intriguing relationship. I just don't see the Firefly fabric (I agree, great term) having slash among the crew, no matter what happened on Buffy.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, November 22, 2007 5:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Mal/Zoe, Mal/River, Mal/Jayne, Mal/Simon, Mal/Kaylee, Mal/Fantasy OC, Mal/Saffron, Mal/Inara...for a guy that supposedly has intimacy issues, he sure does see a lot of play!

Mal/Simon I get, but...Mal/Jayne?

I only get Mal/Simon if it's a friendship/male bonding thing...they do have an intriguing relationship. I just don't see the Firefly fabric (I agree, great term) having slash among the crew, no matter what happened on Buffy.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

I could see River being gay, easily!

I can also see a lot of other homosexual episodes happening between characters on the show.

Mal just isn't one of the characters I see this happening with. He has issues with men and issues with authority and issues with abuse of authority. I just don't see it happening.

Now, Kaylee, River, Inara and Zoe, easily. Jayne is very gender-indiscriminate anyway, so I can see that.

Simon... as easily as with a woman, actually, which is still not easy, as Kaylee will tell you.

Wash, not at all. Book, nope.

Come to think of it, The men are much harder to imagine that way than the women, to me. I think this has to do with the powerplay between them. The women are all much more relaxed about status and sexuality.

MERRYK

Thursday, November 22, 2007 6:01 PM

Ok, so I can see Kaylee and Inara liking both, maybe...I just don't see it happening on the show. Same with Simon. I just don't think Joss would have gone there, at least not fully. Hints, sure, but not anything else.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, November 22, 2007 6:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Ok, so I can see Kaylee and Inara liking both, maybe...I just don't see it happening on the show. Same with Simon. I just don't think Joss would have gone there, at least not fully. Hints, sure, but not anything else.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

Okay, I'll agree that the show wouldn't have explored all that would theoretically be plausible for the characters. Certainly not the guys so much, simply because of viewer reactions.

Except maybe River. *g*

KIRKULES

Thursday, November 22, 2007 6:19 PM

I just can't get past the huge stake through the heart thing. It's seems like it screams, this dude is dead!(or is that just when its a wooden stake)

"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

PLATONIST

Thursday, November 22, 2007 8:55 PM

I think River could have some MAJOR intimacy issues, regardless of her orientation. More so than even Mal and Inara, if that is humanly possible. How could she trust anyone, after what she has gone through?

AMDOBELL

Thursday, November 22, 2007 11:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I just can't get past the huge stake through the heart thing. It's seems like it screams, this dude is dead!(or is that just when its a wooden stake)

I had to smile at you wondering whether Wash would only be dead had the stake through the heart been wooden. Makes me keep thinking about Dobson, come on, he was shot in the head after all yet he gets to live again! So I have my fingers crossed for Wash, if there is ever another BDM I think Joss will find a way to bring back his character. And not al la Dallas with that whole 'dreamt of it in the shower' *goushi*.

Ali D :~)
You can't take the sky from me...

KIRKULES

Thursday, November 22, 2007 11:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AMDOBELL:
Quote:
So I have my fingers crossed for Wash, if there is ever another BDM I think Joss will find a way to bring back his character.

I hope your right, Wash was my favorite character and I have the Hawaiian shirts to prove it. All I ask is that Wash's resurrection doesnt defy all reason.

"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

AMDOBELL

Friday, November 23, 2007 12:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by AMDOBELL:
Quote:
So I have my fingers crossed for Wash, if there is ever another BDM I think Joss will find a way to bring back his character.

I hope your right, Wash was my favorite character and I have the Hawaiian shirts to prove it. All I ask is that Wash's resurrection doesnt defy all reason.

"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

Me too, Kirkrules. Did make me laugh you having all those Hawaiin shirts. Shiny!

Ali D :~)
You can't take the sky from me...

NBZ

Friday, November 23, 2007 12:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AMDOBELL:
So I have my fingers crossed for Wash, if there is ever another BDM I think Joss will find a way to bring back his character.

If he does, I will be pissed. It would be one more time that meaningless death was used to just pull emotional strings.

IMO if anyone wants to kill of a character, they should have the nerve to leave it dead.

I like Wash, just don't want another cop out - Angel and Buffy were different as they had revolving doors around death - but Firefly is not supposed to be them.

IMO Bringing him back would cheapen the current BDM.

SHINYSEVEN2

Friday, November 23, 2007 12:26 AM

agentrouka: well, I'm a Mal/Simon kinda gal myself, which would be a fast and handy explanation about why Kaylee got nowhere with Simon in the TV series.

AGENTROUKA

Friday, November 23, 2007 1:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shinyseven2:
agentrouka: well, I'm a Mal/Simon kinda gal myself, which would be a fast and handy explanation about why Kaylee got nowhere with Simon in the TV series.

Hell, even if Simon was 100% gay and Kaylee was the prettiest boy ever in the world, their issues weren't about sexual orientation. They were about personality clashes and situational... inconvenience.

While I can see Mal/Simon from Simon's POV, I just can't see it from Mal's. Too paternal, the way he treats him. Squicks me. Unless it's some kind of dark, angry and loveless sexual thing. But even then, Mal has sex issues, so...

I think about this entirely too much. *g*

SHINYSEVEN2

Friday, November 23, 2007 2:14 PM

Mal really isn't much older than Simon (my estimate is seven years) and, while Mal has seen some terribly ugly things, I expect that being a trauma surgeon doesn't provide an endless parade of sweetness and light either. And while neither of them is perfect, I think that they each recognize that the other is a person of some stature, and has qualities he can benefit from himself. So it wouldn't have to head in a dark, loveless direction.

PAINTITBLACK

Friday, November 23, 2007 2:29 PM

Its been a very long time since I started this thread, and it has been wonderful to see the ways that it has developed. Like I said at the beginning, I love the way that Mal and Zoe's relationship is but I have major sympathy for Wash's feelings regarding it. I do not think that Wash is an inherently insecure guy: Jealousy can rear its head even in the most well-rounded and solid people--Zoe was very put out in Our Mrs. Reynolds by the idea that Wash might be attracted to a wife who lived to serve, something that is very, very different from her own personality.
I think that it is funny that people are horrified even by the thought that Mal and Zoe, two attractive and passionate people, might have ever looked at each other as anything but fellow combatants and, later, close friends.
Would it really undermine their relationship if they had once been together romantically? Feelings and people change, and Mal certainly changed a great deal in the years after Serenity.

Personally, I think that Mal is jealous of Wash and Zoe's relationship--he advised her against marrying--not because of romantic feelings but because he fears that her loyalty will be torn. Zoe, in contrast, does not seem to be possesive of him in the same way, perhaps because she cannot imagine anyone else taking her place.

SHINYSEVEN2

Friday, November 23, 2007 3:09 PM

I think that Mal is jealous of Zoe's ability to move on and form a mutually loving relationship.

AGENTROUKA

Friday, November 23, 2007 4:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shinyseven2:
Mal really isn't much older than Simon (my estimate is seven years) and, while Mal has seen some terribly ugly things, I expect that being a trauma surgeon doesn't provide an endless parade of sweetness and light either. And while neither of them is perfect, I think that they each recognize that the other is a person of some stature, and has qualities he can benefit from himself. So it wouldn't have to head in a dark, loveless direction.

It's not so much who they are, it's how I see them relating to sex, gender and each other. I don't see a happy, loving, healthy Mal/Simon.

But that's just me. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. ;)

AGENTROUKA

Friday, November 23, 2007 4:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by paintitblack:

Would it really undermine their relationship if they had once been together romantically? Feelings and people change, and Mal certainly changed a great deal in the years after Serenity.

To me... yes, it would undermine their relationship. Both within the context of the show and in terms of being something refreshing and unique on tv.

If you put sex in there, even if it was in the past, you negate the idea that such an almost unfathomably strong bond can exist between a man and a woman that isn't connected to sex, romance or blood relation. Those two having no sexual and/or romantic interest in each other is a large part of the appeal to me.

And I don't think it would work with how these two approach romantic relationships. They don't act like people who have shared a greater intimacy with each other and easily let it go again to be "just friends". They bond very strongly, both, so why wouldn't they talk like former lovers instead of superior-subordinate? Zoe never challenges his superior status, but I cannot see her entering a relationship with someone who is not on an equal level. Nor Mal, the other way around.
The way they both fumble with intimacy with other people (Zoe with Wash, Mal with Inara) implies they have little concept of how to allow that sort of emotional intimacy outside a professional level.

Lastly, looking at who they are in love with at present... they're just no each other's type. *g*

MAL4PREZ

Friday, November 23, 2007 9:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
To me... yes, it would undermine their relationship. Both within the context of the show and in terms of being something refreshing and unique on tv.

If you put sex in there, even if it was in the past, you negate the idea that such an almost unfathomably strong bond can exist between a man and a woman that isn't connected to sex, romance or blood relation. Those two having no sexual and/or romantic interest in each other is a large part of the appeal to me.

Can't say it better than that.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

AGENTROUKA

Friday, November 23, 2007 9:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
To me... yes, it would undermine their relationship. Both within the context of the show and in terms of being something refreshing and unique on tv.

If you put sex in there, even if it was in the past, you negate the idea that such an almost unfathomably strong bond can exist between a man and a woman that isn't connected to sex, romance or blood relation. Those two having no sexual and/or romantic interest in each other is a large part of the appeal to me.
Can't say it better than that.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

You flatter me.

MERRYK

Saturday, November 24, 2007 1:31 AM

Quote:
AgentRouka said: It's not so much who they are, it's how I see them relating to sex, gender and each other. I don't see a happy, loving, healthy Mal/Simon.

Have to say, I think this is the point. Mal and Simon are just too alike in character in most ways, and what's different is too clashing. Slash in general has never appealed to me if it's not canon, usually because it seems like you have to look too hard to see it.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

PAINTITBLACK

Sunday, November 25, 2007 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by paintitblack:

Would it really undermine their relationship if they had once been together romantically? Feelings and people change, and Mal certainly changed a great deal in the years after Serenity.

To me... yes, it would undermine their relationship. Both within the context of the show and in terms of being something refreshing and unique on tv.

If you put sex in there, even if it was in the past, you negate the idea that such an almost unfathomably strong bond can exist between a man and a woman that isn't connected to sex, romance or blood relation. Those two having no sexual and/or romantic interest in each other is a large part of the appeal to me.

Fair enough, but I think that it actually makes that point more. If they were never attracted to each other, and went through the experience of war together, a strong relationship is almost a given. But, if they have already had a physical relationship but, for whatever reason, have decided not to pursue it and instead become close on an entirely different level, that says more to me about the bond between them. I have seen many male/female relationships that are very strong and never were sexual because they simply did not like each other in that way, but the ones that really impressed me are those involving people who were attracted to each other but, for the sake of maintaining the friendship, decided not to go there. But thats just me folks!

Quote:
Zoe never challenges his superior status, but I cannot see her entering a relationship with someone who is not on an equal level. Nor Mal, the other way around.
Lastly, looking at who they are in love with at present... they're just no each other's type. *g*

Well, those are excellent points, but I think that people can cycle in and out of a professional and personal way of dealing with each other. Zoe does play the "yes sir" role but she also makes more than enough comments to suggest that she is not entirely sure of Mal's brilliant plans! In my humble opinion, Zoe is the only person that Mal sees as his equal, and vice versa.
On your last, very funny point, look at Mal (in just woken up no shirt on mode) and Zoe (in those impressive pants)--is there anyone in the world who would not be attracted to those two!