One nation, over a cliff...

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 09:20
VIEWED: 7800
PAGE 1 of 1

SIGNYM

Friday, March 11, 2005 1:08 AM

I got this article in an email from the Financial Times, hardly a left-wing newspaper. Although the FT is subscription only, the article has raised such a stir that it's been reproduced on a number of websites including this one: www.tompaine.com/articles/the_dispensible_nation.php

I'll quote parts of it here, but I have other points to make so you can read it at the link.

------------------
Rising Powers: How the U.S. Became the World's Dispensable Nation by Michael Lind

In a second inaugural address tinged with evangelical zeal, George W. Bush declared: "Today, America speaks anew to the peoples of the world." The peoples of the world, however, do not seem to be listening. A new world order is indeed emerging - but its architecture is being drafted in Asia and Europe, at meetings to which Americans have not been invited.

Consider Asean Plus Three (APT), which unites the member countries of the Association of Southeast Asia Nations with China, Japan and South Korea. This group has the potential to be the world's largest trade bloc, dwarfing the European Union and North American Free Trade Association. The deepening ties of the APT member states represent a major diplomatic defeat for the US, which hoped to use the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation forum to limit the growth of Asian economic regionalism at American expense. In the same way, recent moves by South American countries to bolster an economic community represent a clear rejection of US aims to dominate a western-hemisphere free trade zone.

Consider, as well, the EU's rapid progress toward military independence. American protests failed to prevent the EU establishing its own military planning agency independent of the NATO alliance (and thus of Washington). Europe is building up its own rapid reaction force. And despite US resistance, the EU is developing Galileo, its own satellite network, which will break the monopoly of the US global positioning satellite system.

The participation of China in Europe's Galileo project has alarmed the US military. But China shares an interest with other aspiring space powers in preventing American control of space for military and commercial uses. Even while collaborating with Europe on Galileo, China is partnering Brazil to launch satellites. And in an unprecedented move, China recently agreed to host Russian forces for joint Russo-Chinese military exercises.

In addition, both China and Russia have signed important deals with Iran: Russia will supply Iran with nuclear fuel and reprocessing, and China signed an oil and gas deal. I think both China and Russia are drawing a line in the sand (so to speak) around Iran.- signym

.... A decade ago, American triumphalists mocked those who argued that the world was becoming multipolar, rather than unipolar. Where was the evidence of balancing against the US, they asked. Today the evidence of foreign co-operation to reduce American primacy is everywhere -- from the increasing importance of regional trade blocs that exclude the US to international space projects and military exercises in which the US is conspicuous by its absence.

-------------------------

So just for fun I googled up a number of searches: china+ arms+ deal, china+ oil+ deal, venezeula+ oil+ deal... and so forth. (You get the general picture.) What I found was deeply disturbing and a little frightening. It turns out that Bush has got an entirely deluded picture of his world success. South America is already forming coalitions against us, and the coalition includes Venezuela (which is our major source of imported oil, contrary to popular belief, and which has signed a multi-billion-dollar contract with China), Brazil (the largest economy in the region and previously mentioned as a launch point for Chinese satellites), Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, and Cuba (an important symbol of anti-Americanism).

Just to make things more interesting, I see that Russia is busy taking control of ALL of its oil industry. Exactly where they will funnel the revenues

SIGNYM

Friday, March 11, 2005 2:23 AM

And here we have yet another brilliant, heart-warming move by the Bush administration, guaranteed to push our few remaining allies away:

United States Quits Foreign Inmate Accord

www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/10/vienna.convention.reut/index.htmlWASHINGTON (Reuters) --

The United States has withdrawn from an accord that lets an international court decide disputes over foreign inmates of U.S. prisoners, an agreement used by death penalty opponents in their fight against executions.

The decision followed an International Court of Justice ruling last year that ordered new hearings for 51 Mexican death row inmates because U.S. authorities did not tell them they could consult diplomats from their own country right after their arrests.

The withdrawal was likely to anger Mexico, which opposes the U.S. death penalty, on the day Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice paid a visit to the southern U.S. neighbor...

----------------------

If I had ANY doubts at all if Bush was a nutter, those doubts have been laid to rest!

PIRATEJENNY

Friday, March 11, 2005 10:49 AM

These articles are great in the sense that people can get a good look at what Bush is up to and how its effecting the U.S, This administration is speedly charging us down the road of failure

We come off as hypocrites, we can't even talk about human right without coming off as such.

Europe Asia and Russia are pulling together and leaving us out of the loop and can you blame them after what this administration has showed what it will do.

If China decided rightnow that they were going to convert to the Euro or stop trade with us, we would be in big trouble, Economically that country could ruin us and they know it

I was looking into the Euro and I found this article
www.wsws.org/articles/2003/nov2003/doll-n25.shtml which I thought was interesting, its already been said that within the next 10 years that the Euro is going to be the dominate currency

America with the help of Bush's tactics is really bringing this country down..both at home and abroad America is fast becoming a joke

Seeing as how we are the only country that has ever used a nuclear bomb on another country I wouldn't be surprised if we did it again

an

SIGNYM

Friday, March 11, 2005 11:41 AM

I see that the Central Banks decided (about two weeks ago) to reduce the dollar in their "mix" of currencies. You add our overwhelming foreign, Federal and personal debt to the mix, and suddenly the dollar doesn't look like such a good deal.

XENOCIDE

Friday, March 11, 2005 2:50 PM

Actually, a devalued dollar would be good for debtors. Our debts are all set in dollars values and if we borrowed strong dollars and repaid weak dollars then yay for us.

That aside, empires end. Usually, historically, they end badly. I hope ours ends before it is so deeply entrenched as to ruin our nation.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
http://www.bcpl.net/~wilsonr/farpoint.html

AURAPTOR

Friday, March 11, 2005 3:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
These articles are great in the sense that people can get a good look at what Bush is up to and how its effecting the U.S, This administration is speedly charging us down the road of failure

We come off as hypocrites, we can't even talk about human right without coming off as such.

Europe Asia and Russia are pulling together and leaving us out of the loop and can you blame them after what this administration has showed what it will do.

If China decided rightnow that they were going to convert to the Euro or stop trade with us, we would be in big trouble, Economically that country could ruin us and they know it

I was looking into the Euro and I found this article
www.wsws.org/articles/2003/nov2003/doll-n25.shtml which I thought was interesting, its already been said that within the next 10 years that the Euro is going to be the dominate currency

America with the help of Bush's tactics is really bringing this country down..both at home and abroad America is fast becoming a joke

Seeing as how we are the only country that has ever used a nuclear bomb on another country I wouldn't be surprised if we did it again

an

People have had a good look at W, and when put up along side any alternative, they've chosen Bush. W might not be the best answer for everyone all the time, but the U.S. chose him over everyone else. Despite your chicken little claims about what the rest of the world thinks, or what they MIGHT do, things are going quite well here, and abroad.

I find such columns and post as these little more than sour grapes by folks who just can't accept that they lost at the ballot box.

Free country and all that, but that still doesn't require folks to beat a dead horse simply because they can.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SIGNYM

Friday, March 11, 2005 4:59 PM

Hahahaha!!! Well, it sure helps to know that at least you haven't lost your sense of humor!

Talk in Japan Shakes Dollar and Treasuries

www.nytimes.com/2005/03/11/business/11dollar.html?th&oref=login

ODDNESS2HER

Friday, March 11, 2005 5:05 PM

"...the U.S. chose him (Bush)..."

You mean the whopping 52% that he had to cheat to get?

HERO

Friday, March 11, 2005 6:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
"...the U.S. chose him (Bush)..."

You mean the whopping 52% that he had to cheat to get?

Sore loser? Naw just a loser.

Vote goes your way, great. Vote goes against you, well it can't be because you lost. Either Bush cheated or the people who voted for him didn't know what they were doing. Lets face it. You hate democracy. You only want to accept results in your favor. America does not work that way...I refer you to the second term of President John Adams as proof (not John Q., John the original, although the 2nd term of John Quincy Adams also reflects my point...as does the Mondale administration and our southern neighbors whose mighty Confederacy recently celebrated its 150th anniversery).

The 2004 election was the simple continuation of a national trend thats been going on for ten years. Thats six election cycles. The Republicans have decisively won 5 of them. The '96 race was a split with Democrats winning the White House but further slipping in every catagory from Congress to dogcatcher.

I think that trend might be ready to reverse...but it hasn't happened yet. Democrats need to divorce themselves from the grip of special interests and the mire of 20th century politics. Red State Americans need health care reform, retirement security, education reform, tax relief, freedom from terror, and a myriad of other things. Republicans address some of these concerns, but their view is limited by their politics. There is no Democratic answer because the Democrats will not address these issues without first dictating a social contract that is unacceptable to red-state America.

Compare the two parties on social issues. Republicans allow internal dissent on gay rights, civil liberties, immigration, abortion, etc. Their convention allows presentations of all sides of these issues. Democrats ban those who dare disagree with the party line on any of the social core issues. Bob Casey, for example, former Democratic governor of PA, and an excellent governor I might add, was barred from addressing the 1992 Democratic convention because he was pro-life. This is the rule and in 12 years there have been no exceptions (although Hillary seems to be making a recent play for the center, she has yet to cross the red line).

H

ODDNESS2HER

Friday, March 11, 2005 7:27 PM

Hero, if I am sore, it's not because I lost or, as you ludicrously claim, hate democracy. The reports of registration fraud, voter intimidation and flipped votes involving black boxes have been well documented (Google "election fraud" "2004 election"). Just recently, a Bush campaigner admitted to harassing Democrats by phone. The exit polls on Nov. 2nd showed Kerry in the lead, yet somehow Bush "won" key states. If you love democracy so much, why aren't you angry that so many of your fellow Americans were not left in peace to vote as they wished?

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Friday, March 11, 2005 7:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hahahaha!!! Well, it sure helps to know that at least you haven't lost your sense of humor!

Talk in Japan Shakes Dollar and Treasuries

www.nytimes.com/2005/03/11/business/11dollar.html?th&oref=login

Wow. Now there's a witty rejoinder. Is that what passes for repartee these days? Or perhaps you've been taking lessons in political discussion and argumentation from PirateJenny.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Friday, March 11, 2005 7:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
Hero, if I am sore, it's not because I lost or, as you ludicrously claim, hate democracy. The reports of registration fraud, voter intimidation and flipped votes involving black boxes have been well documented (Google "election fraud" "2004 election"). Just recently, a Bush campaigner admitted to harassing Democrats by phone. The exit polls on Nov. 2nd showed Kerry in the lead, yet somehow Bush "won" key states. If you love democracy so much, why aren't you angry that so many of your fellow Americans were not left in peace to vote as they wished?

Did you actually read all of Hero's post? Or did you just stop at the "You hate democracy" bit without bothering to figure out what he meant?

There are people who do nothing but look at pictures from Mars landers to find "evidence" of "Martian" civilization. They then post their findings on the internet. Why isn't their evidence on the nightly news? Why is the media suppressing the truth?
http://www.totalthinker.com/Mars/mars.html
http://rush.digitalchainsaw.com/marspage.html

For the same very good reason the media doesn't broadcast the stories about how the election was "rigged": internet sources are generally unreliable. People post their outrageous claims to the net; no self-respecting news agency will air those "stories"--and rightly so.

Just saying something happened doesn't make it true. Corroborating reporting and evidence are necessary. Single-source intelligence will burn you every time, because it doesn't take much to make up a story. Just because that story happens to agree with your worldview doesn't make it true.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

SIGNYM

Friday, March 11, 2005 8:03 PM

Inevitable "Wow. Now there's a witty rejoinder. Is that what passes for repartee these days? Or perhaps you've been taking lessons in political discussion and argumentation from PirateJenny."

Wow, now THAT'S a witty rejoinder! Actually, I have a job and a busy life... unlike you, apparently. If you want to look at inadequate responses, take a look at yours, or the one I was responding to:

"People have had a good look at W, and when put up along side any alternative, they've chosen Bush. W might not be the best answer for everyone all the time, but the U.S. chose him over everyone else. Despite your chicken little claims about what the rest of the world thinks, or what they MIGHT do, things are going quite well here, and abroad."

I spent precious time researching how "things are going" by looking up, in as unbiased as way as I knew how, records of trade deals and so forth as reported in financial, trade, and general news publications. Auraptor's response? A typical unsupported assertion- not worth the bytes it was written with- that "things are going quite well, here and abroad". Oh, really? What "things?" Our budget? Our trade balance? The war in Iraq? Our progress against terrorism?

Given the stupidity of that response... and yours... you should be grateful that I responded at all. If you continue to respond stupidly and off-topic, well, I'll just continue to call 'em as I see 'em. That may involve responding in-kind.

ODDNESS2HER

Friday, March 11, 2005 8:03 PM

Inevitable, I did read all of Hero's post. I chose to respond directly to the first part because it was a pointed attack at me personally.
As for yours, it's too inane to even bother with.

SIGNYM

Friday, March 11, 2005 8:13 PM

Back to more pertitnent discussion, I hope?

I think the one thing that really strikes me about the problems that we're facing is that they're all pretty much self-created. And really, it wouldn't take much to fix the most egregious issues... just backing away from Bush's more hare-brained policies.

For example, Bush seems to absolutely DELIGHT in pissing people off, even when it's not necessary. What does he care about the death sentence for Mexican nationals anyway? In fact... and somewhat off-topic... why is he so committed to the death sentence in the first place? I thought he was a good Christian who believes in the sanctity of human life. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "Vengeance is MINE, saith the Lord" and all that. Apparently, he doesn't read his own Bible. But... back on topic... it wouldn't cost the United States much of anything to have these criminals serve a life sentence in Mexico. Or Bush's demand that the IRA disband immediately. First of all, it's impossible to enforce and secondly, it's not really our business. You have to be pissing ppl off on purpose to say these sorts of things. It costs nothing to say nothing. And once you make enemies, they're enemies for a long time. There just ain't no percentage in it.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, March 11, 2005 8:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Rising Powers: How the U.S. Became the World's Dispensable Nation

Yep. It’s a dangerous world out there. I’ve been trying to tell people this for a long time.

You folks remember this the next time you come across some Salon.com article bashing defense spending, the military, missile defense or other defense initiatives. Sometimes it’s not “fear-mongering.” Sometimes the threats are real.

HERO

Friday, March 11, 2005 9:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
If you love democracy so much, why aren't you angry that so many of your fellow Americans were not left in peace to vote as they wished?

If I believed that were the case I would be more then angry. I live in Ohio, guess what? No fraud.

We did have some token incidents. One nice womane tried to vote in Cleveland without registering then ran outside to her waiting lawyer for a press conferance and a trip to the courthouse. We also had a nice person working for the NAACP registering inner city blacks in exchange for crack, they just pled guilty...funny, that didn't make the national news. There were some normal balloting issues, most easily resolved with little or no delay and many caused by an unusually high turnout.

We had an unprecedented legitimate effort by Democrats to register new voters in our cities. Their success was incredible. The only thing more incredible was the Republican effort to register rural and suburban voters. These new voters not only registered, but they braved the rain and the lines to go and vote and they were the difference. Thus we carried Ohio for the President by a larger margin then Kerry won PA. Now you want to talk voter problems, fine, but its as legitimate to argue about PA and several Kerry states as it is to argue Ohio, which means its either not legitimate all (my view) or the entire process is flawed (your anti-democracy view).

H

HERO

Friday, March 11, 2005 9:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
If you love democracy so much, why aren't you angry that so many of your fellow Americans were not left in peace to vote as they wished?

Your right, we should do something...

"Orlando Mayor Surrenders in Ballot Probe
By MIKE SCHNEIDER, Associated Press Writer

ORLANDO, Fla. - Mayor Buddy Dyer, a judge and two campaign workers surrendered Friday on felony charges that they violated a state law barring payments for the collection of absentee ballots."

...about all this Democratic Party voter fraud.

H

SIGNYM

Friday, March 11, 2005 9:15 PM

Finn- Where you see a military threat, I see a military threat but an ever bigger economic one. Which is why blowing energy out our *ss and staying in hock to the Saudis and sending billions of dollars into the black hole that is Haliburton SHOULD give us all pause as to whether we are really doing things the most effective way possible.

Well, lunch is over. Back to work for me!

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Friday, March 11, 2005 9:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Inevitable "Wow. Now there's a witty rejoinder. Is that what passes for repartee these days? Or perhaps you've been taking lessons in political discussion and argumentation from PirateJenny."

Wow, now THAT'S a witty rejoinder! Actually, I have a job and a busy life... unlike you, apparently. If you want to look at inadequate responses, take a look at yours, or the one I was responding to:

"People have had a good look at W, and when put up along side any alternative, they've chosen Bush. W might not be the best answer for everyone all the time, but the U.S. chose him over everyone else. Despite your chicken little claims about what the rest of the world thinks, or what they MIGHT do, things are going quite well here, and abroad."

I spent precious time researching how "things are going" by looking up, in as unbiased as way as I knew how, records of trade deals and so forth as reported in financial, trade, and general news publications. Auraptor's response? A typical unsupported assertion- not worth the bytes it was written with- that "things are going quite well, here and abroad". Oh, really? What "things?" Our budget? Our trade balance? The war in Iraq? Our progress against terrorism?

Given the stupidity of that response... and yours... you should be grateful that I responded at all. If you continue to respond stupidly and off-topic, well, I'll just continue to call 'em as I see 'em. That may involve responding in-kind.

Mmm..OK. We seem to be back to the idea that insults actually count as real arguments. Again, that's the PirateJenny mode of political discussions.

I generally perk up whenever I see your name at the top of a post because you usually post articulate, well reasoned ideas (even though I usually don't agree). I hope that you'll continue to do that in the future. Given my (formerly) glowing opinion of you, it stuns me to be called "stupid" by you so many times in the same post. If you disagree, tell me where you thought that I was wrong in my argument. After all, that's what I've seen you do in that past--I respected you for actually responding intelligently when you disagreed. Making {i]ad hominem attacks is hardly your style. I didn't call you stupid.

I notice that you didn't bother to reply to the issue that I raised. Again, that hardly makes for good discussion. So, I'm going to raise the issue again.

Internet sources are almost invariably unreliable. That's becuase anybody can post anything they want to the internet. The fact that there hasn't been widespread coverage of voter fraud in U.S. or world news media indicates that there wasn't any. Show me evidence Sygnym.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, March 11, 2005 9:24 PM

Signym - I’m with you 100%. If someone has a more effective way, then I’m all ears. But if that “more effective way” means appeasing dictators or handing over our sovereignty to the UN, then I think it will shoot us in the foot.

ODDNESS2HER

Friday, March 11, 2005 10:03 PM

Okay, Hero, that's the second time you've accused me of being anti-democracy. If that were true, I wouldn't have bothered voting at all. I was lucky enough to have done so with a paper ballot which I'm reasonably sure was counted. Even if that were in question, my ballot could have been checked and verified. This is a luxury those who voted by black box didn't have. The fact that those machines were designed by someone who is on record as having promised to deliver Ohio for Bush is part of why me and many other Americans are suspicious of the election's outcome. Democracy depends on access to voting rights and accuracy of vote counting. The way it stands now, we can be sure of neither.

SIGNYM

Friday, March 11, 2005 10:36 PM

I guess I'm on break now.

Inevitable- The reason why I didn't respond to the topic of voter fraud is because it's off topic... or at least off the topic that I introduced. I have no interest in discussing it IN THIS THREAD because I think it just provides you with a reason not to discuss the issues I brought up. Feel free to start another thread or revive an old one.

Finn- I have all kinds of ways to make us stonger and more prosperous as a nation, and it has nothing to do with submitting to "one world government" or ignoring despots and tyrants. The only problem is, it touches corporate power, which seems to be a sacred cow. It requires that you actually break the mental link that equates corporate interest with national interest. But trust me, the corporations are never so happy as when they sell us and our government down the river, since it mkes them so much $$$$$.

AURAPTOR

Friday, March 11, 2005 10:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oddness2her:
"...the U.S. chose him (Bush)..."

You mean the whopping 52% that he had to cheat to get?

That's right. He had to cheat.

Never mind the fact that virtually all the voter fraud stories are of Dems cheating, from offers of crack cocain to massive phony voter registration scams.

You folks are hilarious. Sad, but hilarious.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, March 11, 2005 11:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- I have all kinds of ways to make us stonger and more prosperous as a nation, and it has nothing to do with submitting to "one world government" or ignoring despots and tyrants. The only problem is, it touches corporate power, which seems to be a sacred cow. It requires that you actually break the mental link that equates corporate interest with national interest. But trust me, the corporations are never so happy as when they sell us and our government down the river, since it mkes them so much $$$$$.

Ah, the “big business” is the bad guy theory. So your idea is to maybe centralize control of corporate power in the government? The last time it was tried it did produce a very strong nation. However, I’m less inclined towards that direction then one might think, so to my previous caveats, let me also add that your theory must retain at least as much liberty, and Jews, as currently exists in the US.

SIGNYM

Friday, March 11, 2005 11:50 PM

Finn- Actually, there are a lot of non-lethal ways to improve our effectiveness. Why do you always jump to extreme/irrelevant examples?

For example, what would be so horrible about requiring better automotive fleet efficiency? We'd reduce oil demand, and be in a better bargaining position vis a vis oil suppliers.

Then, there is the Federal deficit brought about by the tax cut. As ideologically attractive as that tax cut was, it was fiscally irresponsible.

Furthermore, judicious modification to our incorporation, trade, and tax laws would place all businesses on a more even playing field and ensure that they pay at least a minimum tax, which is a fair price for the protection that they receive from our Armed Forces overseas.

And speaking of Armed Forces- why are we still blowing billions on a Star Wars-type "nuclear shield"? The damn thing hasn't worked on 19 out of 20 tries, and has already been thwarted by the development of a guided "ballistic missile".

At this point, I really don't feel like debating stupid points with you, either, since you are so ideologically stuck that your "world view" is pretty much limited to the world in your head. I'm sure it's much simpler in there.

---------------------------
For those that are interested in discussing REAL WORLD events, I'll pass along this email that I got fomr someone who is monitoring curency much more closely that I am. I thought it was particularly well-put, so here it is:

"Thanks for the info but I already heard it on the BBC. Like I said about a week ago the slide has started. The only thing that is preventing a full blown run on the US bank is that they are all afraid of being the last one through the door. Everyone in the world knows that the US cannot possible pay off its debt. So all the countries that hold US currency are worried that if any one of them tries to draw down their accounts it will mean that every one else will jump as well at which point no one will get paid. I think they are surreptitiously pulling small amounts at a time hoping no one will notice. Already over a hundred foreign banks are no longer buying dollars for their reserves. Rather they are purchasing Euros. I would not be surprised if some of them are not resorting to precious metals. The crash is coming but no one wants to be the one to start it. I think they are just trying to warn the US so it will do something about its house of cards. Good luck. I think the Bush administration has no intention of paying. I really think he thinks he can just bully the whole world into going along with what ever he wants to do. I think he could care less about how low the dollar will go since that will make it possible to pay off the debt in worthless currency. Of course that will also mean that the US standard of living will fall like a rock. Can you say hyper inflation, Mr. Rogers? Sure you can. But what do you expect from a guy who ran every business that his daddy bought him into the ground?"

DARKJESTER

Friday, March 11, 2005 11:56 PM

AURaptor wrote:

Quote:
That's right. He had to cheat. Never mind the fact that virtually all the voter fraud stories are of Dems cheating, from offers of crack cocain to massive phony voter registration scams.

You folks are hilarious. Sad, but hilarious.

I guess I'm "hilarious" too, AURaptor - seems we were getting our news from different sources. From what I've seen and read (a few months back now) things were pretty well even in the "let's disenfranchise voters" contest. @#&^%$ Democrats and ^#$%#$@ Republicans (choose your own expletives) tried to circumvent the system, for what I am sure were the best of intentions {sarcasm} to make sure their good/bad guys won/lost their seats. One more reason I love my country, but am not so fond of some the %$#^$&%*s running it.
I will continue to oppose most of our president's policies because I really do think they are bad for the country, the world and for Americans as a people, not as a knee-jerk response because I'm bitter over the election.

OK, I left myself rather open there - unfortunately, I expect mostly cheap shots in return.

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

AURAPTOR

Saturday, March 12, 2005 12:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DarkJester:
AURaptor wrote:
Quote:
That's right. He had to cheat. Never mind the fact that virtually all the voter fraud stories are of Dems cheating, from offers of crack cocain to massive phony voter registration scams.

You folks are hilarious. Sad, but hilarious.

I guess I'm "hilarious" too, AURaptor - seems we were getting our news from different sources. From what I've seen and read (a few months back now) things were pretty well even in the "let's disenfranchise voters" contest. @#&^%$ Democrats and ^#$%#$@ Republicans (choose your own expletives) tried to circumvent the system, for what I am sure were the best of intentions {sarcasm} to make sure their good/bad guys won/lost their seats. One more reason I love my country, but am not so fond of some the %$#^$&%*s running it.
I will continue to oppose most of our president's policies because I really do think they are bad for the country, the world and for Americans as a people, not as a knee-jerk response because I'm bitter over the election.

OK, I left myself rather open there - unfortunately, I expect mostly cheap shots in return.

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

There is some agreement from me in what you post. Not much, but some. No cheap shots here.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

PIRATEJENNY

Saturday, March 12, 2005 12:33 AM

Quote:
I find such columns and post as these little more than sour grapes by folks who just can't accept that they lost at the ballot box

and this is why its so sad, because this is all you can see you really think its about Sour grapes for the Democrates losing!!

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, March 12, 2005 12:39 AM

Double post.

Yeah. This never happened.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, March 12, 2005 12:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- Actually, there are a lot of non-lethal ways to improve our effectiveness. Why do you always jump to extreme/irrelevant examples?

Paint me skeptical.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
For example, what would be so horrible about requiring better automotive fleet efficiency? We'd reduce oil demand, and be in a better bargaining position vis a vis oil suppliers.

Nothing at all. I’m all for it, but since it’s already been done. It would seem somewhat moot.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Then, there is the Federal deficit brought about by the tax cut. As ideologically attractive as that tax cut was, it was fiscally irresponsible.

Debatable. That has yet to be seen. I’m inclined to believe that less tax burden means a stronger economy. I would think a strong economy would certainly be fiscally responsible.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Furthermore, judicious modification to our incorporation, trade, and tax laws would place all businesses on a more even playing field and ensure that they pay at least a minimum tax, which is a fair price for the protection that they receive from our Armed Forces overseas.

Once again, debatable. Some have argued that corporations are fleeing the American market to avoid the tax burden, which would suggest that corporations are actually overtaxed.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
And speaking of Armed Forces- why are we still blowing billions on a Star Wars-type "nuclear shield"? The damn thing hasn't worked on 19 out of 20 tries, and has already been thwarted by the development of a guided "ballistic missile".

I’m not entirely sure your information here is completely accurate. But to respond to your question, I should think your premise for starting this thread should be enough reason. Is there something about stopping incoming Chinese ICBMs before impact on our cities that you don’t see as a good thing?

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
At this point, I really don't feel like debating stupid points with you, either, since you are so ideologically stuck that your "world view" is pretty much limited to the world in your head. I'm sure it's much simpler in there.

If what you’re looking for is affirmation of Postmodern Liberals views, then you are likely to be disappointed by my opinion. I’m a capitalist. I believe corporations should be owned and run with as little input from the government as possible. Unlike many of my Right-wing brethren, I don’t necessarily support realpolitick so I’m not inclined to think that American economic interest should necessarily dictate foreign policy, but at the same time, I’m not naïve like many of my Left-wing brethren, who think that one can divorce the corporate power from state power. (Oddly though, in practice generally right the opposite occurs.) The power of a state is always going to be inexorably linked to the power of its economy.

Can you really fault me for being skeptical? Do you really think that what you have presented here is a solution? I don’t have all the answers either, but I think it is a little more complicated then you seem to be making it. In the mean time, I don’t want to be wiped out by Communist China while we sit and ponder idealistic anti-corporation philosophies. I’m really not big on Chinese food. It’s the sesame seeds. Three hours later I’m still picking them out of my teeth.

PIRATEJENNY

Saturday, March 12, 2005 1:00 AM

Quote:
Mmm..OK. We seem to be back to the idea that insults actually count as real arguments. Again, that's the PirateJenny mode of political discussions.

would you please stop throwing my name out, I never insulted anyone as I recall, I was constantly being insulted,and by you most of all so give it up!!

and you don't have to respond to this post , why don't you just stay on topic of this thread because I don't want it turning as petty as the other one!!!

PIRATEJENNY

Saturday, March 12, 2005 1:15 AM

Quote:
. I think he could care less about how low the dollar will go since that will make it possible to pay off the debt in worthless currency. Of course that will also mean that the US standard of living will fall like a rock

This was part of my reasoning in the other tread about the soft dollar and why Bush would want to funnel a steady flow of money from social security into the stock-market...but I digress

Of course no matter the Euro is going to be the dominate currency wether that happens sooner or later its going to happen, and yes our standard of living will fall dramatically, Bush doesn't care because his standard of living won't be effected!!

PIRATEJENNY

Saturday, March 12, 2005 1:21 AM

Quote:
Once again, debatable. Some have argued that corporations are fleeing the American market to avoid the tax burden, which would suggest that corporations are actually overtaxed.

you only bring up one side of that issue, those corporations flee America set up shop in some other country, but still do Business with America, they don't wantto pay American taxes or pay a decent wage to workers but they want and are allowed to take our money while taking our jobs

you well know a a country's econmic power is part of its power, the economic policy for this country is make us weak...

If these businesses want to flee the country fine, but they should still be taxed so it wouldn't be so lucrative for them to do it!!

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, March 12, 2005 1:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
you only bring up oneside of that, those corporation flee America set up shop in some other country, but still do Business with America, they don't want American taxes or pay a decent wage to workers but they want and are allowed to take our money while taking our jobs

If these businesses want to flee the country fine, but they should still be taxed so it wouldn't be so lucrative for them to do it!!

That’s some tricky business. Import tariffs on formally American businesses to punish business for not wanting to pay high taxes. That’s a little like strong-arming, isn’t it? Don’t you think that maybe these import tariffs will just be passed onto the consumer? Resulting in less fun for everyone.

But setting that aside, don’t you think you’re dodging the issue? We might solve the problem by considering reducing the taxes to be a little more competitive, maybe? Work with corporation for the good of all, instead of strong-arming them into raising their prices.

SIGNYM

Saturday, March 12, 2005 2:12 AM

"Nothing at all. I’m all for it, but since it’s already been done. It would seem somewhat moot."

The last change in CAFE standards was back in 1991. But efficiency can be increased substantially- it's technically feasible and doesn't even require anyhting fancy like hybrids.
www.aceee.org/energy/cafe.htm

"Debatable. That has yet to be seen. I’m inclined to believe that less tax burden means a stronger economy. I would think a strong economy would certainly be fiscally responsible."
How long do we have to wait for the Bush doctrine to take effect? Reagan tried trickle-down in 1981 and it had the same effect- massive deficits. Apparently you don't learn from history.

"Once again, debatable. Some have argued that corporations are fleeing the American market to avoid the tax burden, which would suggest that corporations are actually overtaxed."

Some have argued... well, some are stupid. The whole discussion would take too long for this thread.

"I’m not entirely sure your information here is completely accurate."
My information is entirely accurate. Take a peek at the real world once in a while and inform yourself.

"But to respond to your question, I should think your premise for starting this thread should be enough reason. Is there something about stopping incoming Chinese ICBMs before impact on our cities that you don’t see as a good thing?"
We WERE talking about effectiveness, right?? Apparently, you see nothing wrong about spending billions on system that DOESN'T WORK. How is that effective?

"I’m a capitalist."

You know nothing about capitalism. Have you read "Wealth of Nations?" Doubtful.

"I believe corporations should be owned and run with as little input from the government as possible."

Yes, I know- you believe. But I already know that you're an ideologue, so you're not telling me anything new- or making much of a case for your beliefs.

So given all that, I really see no more need to reply to your statements of belief. I may respond when you talk about something real.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, March 12, 2005 2:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Some have argued... well, some are stupid. The whole discussion would take too long for this thread.

Openmindness. That’s what I like about you.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
We WERE talking about effectiveness, right?? Apparently, you see nothing wrong about spending billions on system that DOESN'T WORK. How is that effective?

So you’re in favor of putting a stop to AIDS research?

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You know nothing about capitalism. Have you read "Wealth of Nations?" Doubtful.

Would it make a difference if I said I had read it? You seem to have pretty much made up your mind. Not only have I read Smith’s work, but I’ve also read some of Keynes' work.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So given all that, I really see no more need to reply to your statements

Do you promise?

RUE

Saturday, March 12, 2005 2:31 AM

Quote:
Auraptor: I find such columns and post (sic) as these little more than sour grapes by folks who just can't accept that they lost at the ballot box.

Auraptor, do you have ANYTHING to say about the state of the US economy? Just wondering when you're going to join the discussion instead of trying to hijack the thread.

For what it's worth, I got my info about China's 'string of pearls' from AsiaTimes Online. If you don't know what that is, perhaps you should google it.

SIGNYM

Saturday, March 12, 2005 2:34 AM

Jenny, there are other ways to tackle the "race to the bottom" problem, and one way is to change trade laws. To do that, we have to take a long step back from the system as it currently operates, and examine the fundamental ASSUMPTIONS AND BELIEFS on which the system is based in order to see if they're working.

But before we get to fundamental changes, we should look at short-term solutions. One short-term problem is American debt, which is dragging down the currency and may be close to creating a currency panic. The Federal deficit is basically an easy fix, if you're not ideological. Reverse the tax cut on the wealthy. Cut programs (like Star Wars because you lose nothing. Negotiate better drug prices for the Medicare drug progam. I think solving the deficit is quite do-able, and really wouldn't involve sacrifice on the part of the average person. It would be interesting to pencil-whip some of these figures to see how they come out.

The trade deficit is a more stubborn problem, because it's been caused by corporations moving overseas for cheap labor as well as by increasingly expensive imports of oil. We can actually deal with the oil part of the equation pretty handily on a short-term basis by simply focusing on automotive fuel economy since 40% of our oil goes to gasoline. Oops... time's up!

What do YOU think we can/ should do?

RUE

Saturday, March 12, 2005 2:43 AM

I agree with the opinion that one of the things keeping the US solvent is that foreign countries don't want to start a run on the currency. That they are afraid that in the stampede to get in line, no one will be paid.

I know how to invest in the Euro, but they are not isolated enough from US economic perturbation for me. Anyone know how to invest in the yuan?

GEEZER

Saturday, March 12, 2005 2:45 AM

Need to do a bit of research before I get into this, but here's a little more of Michael Lind's writings, to put his comments in context.

http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=Publications&contactID=57

It's always good to see where folk are coming from.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RUE

Saturday, March 12, 2005 8:19 AM

So Geezer, where do you keep your money? Foreign currency? Overseas stocks? I'm just wondering if you walk the talk.

SIGNYM

Saturday, March 12, 2005 1:52 PM

Nothing says it like a chart (showing trade deficit)

www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/crisis/2003/curracctab.htm

Here's one showing the Federal deficit (surplus under Clinton)

www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/crisis/2003/deftab.htm

Detail (by the WTO) of the US balance of trade by sector, showing a 1.4% (of world trade) increase in ores and fuel export and a 2.5% decrease in clothing and machinery exports, coupled with a 5.0% (of world trade) increase in fuel imports, a 3.3% increase in FOOD imports and a 5.1% increase in imports of clothing.
www.finfacts.ie/Private/globe_l/wto.htm

Google is your friend.

GEEZER

Saturday, March 12, 2005 4:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So Geezer, where do you keep your money? Foreign currency? Overseas stocks? I'm just wondering if you walk the talk.

I've converted most of it into the guns, ammo, and freeze-dried food stashed out in the bunker.

Mostly in regular old savings and real estate (an almost paid off mortgage). Even have some U.S. Savings Bonds. We tend to be relatively frugal in the Geezer household, stay out of debt, and save - lessons learned from parents who experienced the Great Depression.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RUE

Saturday, March 12, 2005 7:46 PM

Thanks SignyM.

Geezer, I was under the impression that "owner occupied homes" were the single largest individual investment, for those who can aford them. But with a little googling, I found those who say it's actually retirement monies. Which, for non-gvt employees, means SS across the board. If I recall correctly, you work in the federal system. What does that make your retirement?

HARDWARE

Sunday, March 13, 2005 3:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

I've converted most of it into the guns, ammo, and freeze-dried food stashed out in the bunker.

"...We're advising all of our clients to invest in canned food and shotguns."

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

CAPNRAHN

Sunday, March 13, 2005 6:17 PM

{Note: Not on Topic - exactly}

Hardware: Excellent and appropriate "Gremlins 2" ref!

{We return you to your regularly schedualed debate}

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, March 13, 2005 6:30 PM

HA! I was trying to think where that quote came from.

OLDENGLANDDRY

Sunday, March 13, 2005 10:40 PM

I heard that Bush was actually very surprised to be re-elected. In fact he was so convinced that he would be leaving the whitehouse that he started his book. Now he is going to have to wait four more years to find out what happens to the Cat in the Hat.

GEEZER

Monday, March 14, 2005 12:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

Geezer, I was under the impression that "owner occupied homes" were the single largest individual investment, for those who can aford them. But with a little googling, I found those who say it's actually retirement monies. Which, for non-gvt employees, means SS across the board. If I recall correctly, you work in the federal system. What does that make your retirement?

I'm under the old Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS). I have absolutely nothing in Social Security except Medicare payments. Since 1988, new Federal hires, and anyone who wanted to change over, are in FERS (Federal Employees Retirement System) which is is Social Security plus an optional investment system called the Thrift Savings Plan.

TSP lets you put up to 10% of your income, with a 5% match from your agency, in one of five investment funds - Government Securities Investment (G) Fund, Fixed Income Index Investment (F) Fund, Common Stock Index Investment (C) Fund, Small Capitalization Stock Index Investment (S) Fund, or International Stock Index Investment (I) Fund. TSP contributions are not taxable until you withdraw them, sort of like a 401K (?)

We CSRS folk get to invest in TSP, but without the matching funds.

Since I retired in December, guess I'll get to find out how well it all works.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RUE

Monday, March 14, 2005 12:32 AM

I figured you as retired, or with a VERY undemanding job. For those of us still working, with families, the internet is a luxury.

PS Yes, individually, people are encouraged to hedge their investments with a combination of govt (fixed income), international (sometimes called global, world etc) funds, currencies etc. Fund managers (eg TIAA-CREF) do that with the bulk fund. The nice thing about having it done for you in a bulk fund is that you, as an individual, don't pay a fee to move money in and out of various sectors to cushion downward moves.
The fund I am required to be in took a beating in the last few years with US stocks, and they are now diversifying with European stocks, global currencies, and 'emerging markets' investments. I'm guessing a good portion of my retirement contributions is now untethered from the US.

SIGNYM

Monday, March 14, 2005 4:57 AM

I am seriously... and I mean seriously... looking at foreign CDs. (This from a muni-bond, T-bill, and MINOR stock-player person!)

RUE

Monday, March 14, 2005 6:20 AM

SignyM -

to answer your question

Quote:
What do YOU think we can/ should do?

(though it was not directed at me), I will be thinking aloud ...

But first I want to explain my assumptions. I believe that while human resources can be multiplied through increasing numbers, which must be coupled with cooperation and technology, the physical world we live in is ultimately a zero-sum place. There are only so many trees to be felled, fish to be fished, or acres to be farmed. I'd go so far as to say there is only so much air to be used. In sum, human existence vis-à-vis the physical world is Malthusian. And so, the world in general and the US along with it is facing a shortage of resources.
The capitalist model, which does not concern itself with ultimate survival but focuses on short-term profit, would not see using up the last of a resource as a problem. Or it may even be considered an opportunity ,... if I can corner the last tree, I can make, uhm, let's see .. lots. And for profit or other reason, it could be a call to arms (literally): if there is only one tree to be felled, damn it! I'm going to fight to make it MY tree!
Now this seems to me to be terribly short-sighted. Is being merely the 'last one to lose' a reasonable goal, when there is the ultimate option in sight of not losing at all?

I would consider the various US problems in that context. Here is my take on the problems ...

Production job loss: "You want fries with that?"
- In the past, when shipping actual goods was an obstacle, jobs were more or less tied to the area of consumption. Now, goods made in foreign countries take routine and cheap trips around the globe, not by the pound, but by the freighter-full. And goods made overseas are cheap enough to offset miniscule transit costs. I'm sure this isn't news to anybody. So why is there surprise that manufacturing and textile jobs migrate out of the US?
In addition to manufactured goods, intellectual jobs are also highly mobile, and college-degreed workers (called 'white-collar production') are now 1/5 of the long-term jobless. http://www.latimes.com/business/careers/work/la-fi-jobless11mar11,1,61
61800.story?coll=la-headlines-business-careers&ctrack=2&cset=true
No wonder the government looks to 'small business' as an engine of growth.
And what kinds of jobs can't be 'out-sourced'? I would guess hands-on service jobs.

Unemployment and wages
- While 'unemployment' - people receiving unemployment checks - is only (roughly) 5.4%,

Quote:
"The employment-population ratio--the proportion of the population age 16 and over with jobs--was little changed over the month at 62.3 percent." http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

And "The share of men aged 25 to 64 who aren't in the paid labor force has remained fairly stable at 12 percent over the past 10 to 15 years, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics."

Also from the BLS, long-term layoffs were:
1996 - 957745
1997 - 1041907
1998 - 1232384
1999 - 972244
2000 - 1018700
2001 - 1615522 *
2002 - 1375781 *
2003 - 1404331 *
Squeezed by loss of manufacturing and high-tech jobs from above, and competition for low paying jobs from below, real wages have fallen in the US.

The US - One nation, under debt
- Around 1982 the US went from being a creditor to a debtor nation. Around 1986, it became the world's largest debtor nation. And in 2001, the US aggregate population had a negative savings rate.
State and local governments are under economic duress.
And in addition to consumer, business, and non-federal debt, there is the national debt - the debt owed by the federal government, which hit an all time high (which is an all-time low) this year.

It seems the country is, well, going over a cliff.

I have what I assume would be very unpopular notions of what could be done. Most of this stems from the problem that our economic model is not concerned with long-term consequences.
I can already hear the apologists spluttering -But, but capitalism raises the standard of living al

SIGNYM

Monday, March 14, 2005 4:53 PM

Oh wow. This was much more than I expected. And so meaty, too.

I just have time for a very quick comment, wishing I could get into this in depth. I just heard a piece on radio (Air America) from a statistical marketing analyst. He mentioned some things I had not known/ hadn't thought about, so here they are in no particular order:

Saudi Arabia is at post-peak production. Apparently they have been injecting so much water into their oil fields (advanced recovery techniques) that they are now pulling up sour and contaminated crude, and have permanently damaged their oil-bearing structures. Iran is pumping gas into THEIR oil fields, and are also post-peak.

According to this guy, foreign banks and Asian nations (which collectively hold about 1.9 billion of American debt) have been quietly moving to Euro-oil for the past year or so. Once oil is sold in Euros, the need for stable US dollar reserves evaporates. Once THAT happens, nobody will really need to stabilize the dollar anymore. He predicts a 20-40% rise in everything related to oil, including fertilizer and food, because the US is being out-competed for oil resources.

I don't think the Treasury will let its paper sink to fire-sale prices, so they might print lots and lots and lots of dollars to buy them back. OTOH, the Feds might raise interest rates to make our currency more attractive.

If interest rates rise, the housing bubble will pop. IMHO, the housing bubble has been a MAIN driver of US consumption, bc it allows ppl to borrow against (somewhat) fictitious wealth. A drop in consumption would mean a drop in employment. If that is coupled with an externally-driven rise in prices, we will see a SEVERELY decreased standard of living for the average person .... even those that have access to a lot of US dollars. I need to think this thru bc there are a lot of interrelations and I'm no economist.

Geezer, Soupcatcher, Rue or any other thoughful person... how do you see this playing out??? And now, I have to go pay some bills....

HARDWARE

Monday, March 14, 2005 11:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Geezer, Soupcatcher, Rue or any other thoughful person... how do you see this playing out??? And now, I have to go pay some bills....

Sounds like a replay of the late '70's to me. High oil prices led to a destabilized dollar. The fed cranked up interest and the economy hit a wall. I was still pretty young, but that seems to be how I remember it.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 15, 2005 5:28 PM

This doesn't belong in this thread, but I just had to post it:

"...when a candidate for public office faces the voters he does not face men of sense. He faces a mob of men who's chief distinguishing mark is the fact that they are quite incapable of weighing ideas, or even comprehending any save the most elemental-men who's whole thinking is done in terms of emotion and who's dominant emotion is a dread of things they cannot understand.
So confronted, the candidate must either bark with the pack or lose. All the odds are on the man who, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre. The man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that, in fact, his mind is a virtual vaccum. The Presidency tends to go to, term by term, such men.
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the true inner soul of the people. We move toward that lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts desire and the White House will be adorned by......... a downright moron...."

H.L. Mencken writing in the Baltimore Sun, July 26, 1920.

RUE

Tuesday, March 15, 2005 8:47 PM

SignyM -

I see that foreign countries are already moving off the dollar, and pricing oil in Euros. I have also heard (and you may have heard this as well) that foreign countries are quietly forming trade agreements and partnerships, and quietly NOT inviting the US. I see this as a way they are trying to insulate themselves from US problems and prosper in the future.
I think the future of the US is dependent on foreign decisions. And how far they will go with this is anybody's guess. They might kick the legs out from under the dollar, or not.
The balance of trade has been continuously bad since 1982 (one year was an exception when the US allowed its dollar to float). It was only under Clinton that the Federal gv't moved from losing to gaining. So the bad times have been around for a long time, and the good times have been the exception.
Foreign countries may hold back on completely steamrolling the US, in which case the US gets a lingering economic illness. Or they might move forward. In that case, I see an economic collapse, probably inflationary as the US dollar becomes worthless internationally.

PIRATEJENNY

Tuesday, March 22, 2005 8:26 AM

Quote:
What do YOU think we can/ should do?

Hi Signym,I wanted to answer this sooner but I've been extremely busy and tired!!

I agree with so much of what you and Rue said that I really don't have much to add without parroting what you've both said so I'll keep my comments short

you would think if we know that getting rid of the debt would be the easiest problem to tackle, you'd think they know this..so why aren't they doing it!!??

The wealth of a nation is determined by what it produces in terms of products and services, not by how much money it prints, distributes or holds, America being a self sustaining country rich in many natural resources,in theory could actually survive without any currency as long as we are productive, I say in theory because Our belife system and our way of thinking being what it is, its not likely to happen

maybe we should get rid of the federal reserve Bank??

Our dependence on foreign oil could end quite nicely, if we would just simply start looking into alternative and new sources of energy

PIRATEJENNY

Tuesday, March 22, 2005 8:46 AM

Quote:
It seems the country is, well, going over a cliff.

I have what I assume would be very unpopular notions of what could be done. Most of this stems from the problem that our economic model is not concerned with long-term consequences.
I can already hear the apologists spluttering -But, but capitalism raises the standard of living all around the globe! Why, just look at, at -- Argentina? India? The Philippines?
Or instead, we could look at the US.

where is has the humanity gone, this country doesn't give a damn about its citzens!!!

Quote:
A drop in consumption would mean a drop in employment. If that is coupled with an externally-driven rise in prices, we will see a SEVERELY decreased standard of living for the average person .... even those that have access to a lot of US dollars. I need to think this thru bc there are a lot of interrelations and I'm no economist

I'm no economist either, but this is what I've been harping on, intrest rates are defintely going up, that you can take to the bank, and yes its all interelated

I still believe the coming fall of the economy is one of the main reasons why Bush wants to privatize Social Security, to sort of pad or cushion the stock market for the coming economic fall!!

HARDWARE

Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:53 PM

Here ya go!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5567661291

For sale on E-bay, Social Security!

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

SOUPCATCHER

Wednesday, March 23, 2005 9:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Here ya go!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5567661291

For sale on E-bay, Social Security!

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

Damn. By the time I read this post and clicked on the link eBay had removed the item.

Gorram fun killers.