Alliance or Independents by MORSE

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Alliance or Independents

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POSTED BY: MORSE
UPDATED: Monday, September 10, 2012 12:55
SHORT URL: http://bit.ly/OgGz33
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Wednesday, July 18, 2012 9:43 AM

Which side would you have supported in the Unification War, and why. I ask because typically no one gives me the same answer for why.

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Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:58 AM

Alliance. I'm far too trusting of authority.

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Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:12 PM

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

The Independents, because I believe in self-reliance and self-government. I'm a libertarian (small "l"), with anarchist leanings.

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Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MORSE: Which side would you have supported in the Unification War, and why. I ask because typically no one gives me the same answer for why.

I asked the same question a few years ago, and it took me a week to come up with Independents. Why?

Synthahol Sucks! :cheers:

I'd rather be a redneck on the rim than a pretentious schmuck in da Core. Providing we were all outta Fireflys, that is... :wink:

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Thursday, July 19, 2012 7:41 AM

See, I'm with Zeek, I gotta go with the Alliance.

Rather then having planets always at war with each other, just because they feel like it, and want to go their own way. Slavery, no police, crime and drugs everywhere, lack of medical response, no one to help amidst major disasters.

The trend I've noticed is that people that say Independents are just making a sweeping generalization about 'all people in the alliance are snobs', and they want to be free. But free to do what? And in what sense can you not do that with the Alliance?

Pretty much, if your with the Alliance, you're looking at living like the United States and Britain, prosperous and healthy, and with the Independents you want a Galaxy that is set up like most of the continent of Africa, war, poverty, famine, disease, and death.

(Case in point, I'd rather be able to call 911 and get help and be able to go to a doctor when I'm sick, then the 'do it yourself' madness that exists on the rim for both categories)

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Thursday, July 19, 2012 8:06 AM

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

So, are you for Obama or Romney?

Wait...scratch that. They're both Alliance so it doesn't matter. :biggrin:

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Thursday, July 19, 2012 9:17 AM

Neither. I find it difficult to side with the two groups of people that perpetrated the most violent war in that fictional universe's history.

Plus Independents were just a scam from the rim magistrates that wanted to keep the status quo as it was, with them in power. Alliance are ambitious imperial expansionists one misstep away from killing off most the population of the verse due to shortsightedness, with their own status quo people on their side.

Anyone with any sense would have played neutral and packed up their stuff whenever either one came near, and if they didn't have sense but had ideals, they'd have been sabotaging Blue Sun for propping both sides up in a pointless and bloody conflict.

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Thursday, July 19, 2012 9:53 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

All good points Morse if that were the definitive Independent mantra - but I don't believe it is.

I think there's a little more involved than just saying the Independents were anti everything the Alliance stood for and vice versa. I'm sure they'd share similar views on being civilised, I just think they'd go about applying them in different ways.

I don't see the Independents as quite that reactionary. I like to think of it as deciding whether to live in the countryside or the city.

For me I like the countryside. I can build my own house, grow my own food and walk my dogs in the woods and take trips to the beach. All very nice and civilised. Now of course I'd want a certain amount of infrastructure, schools for my kids and hospitals. But these things are not exclusive to the city.

So for me Independents.

°...Well here I am.°

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Thursday, July 19, 2012 10:35 AM

Well I get confused with that argument of people wanting their own home and countryside and all that. The Alliance planets are large, and probably have just as much place to do that, and people on the Rim can still do that. To me that sounds more like an argument of 'Rim or Central planets' - But I'm looking more at the political structure of Alliance v. Independents.

(But also anyone who so much as speaks a word against the Alliance is a traitor and should be killed off of every world spinning XP)

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Thursday, July 19, 2012 11:59 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by Morse:

Quote:
But also anyone who so much as speaks a word against the Alliance is a traitor and should be killed off of every world spinning XP)

To quote Bugs Bunny:

"Of course, you know this means WAR!"

- it's that easy.

:D

°...Well here I am.°

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Monday, July 23, 2012 4:20 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I'd say Independents, because I'm anti globalization and I'm even more anti multglobalization. A whole planet there should be able to set up an economy, schools, government etc. that work for its people without someone in the core telling them how to do it and creating more burocracy.

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Monday, August 27, 2012 11:31 AM

-Aint no place I can be since I found Serenity

Quote:
Originally posted by MORSE: Which side would you have supported in the Unification War, and why. I ask because typically no one gives me the same answer for why.

I would have to go with the Independents.

1. Because the Alliance just reminds me too much of George Lucas's empire. and 2. If I may paraphrase River, the Alliance meddles, they get involved in your life whether you want them there or not and try to tell you what to think.

I'm a bit of a libertarian myself in that I do believe in individual liberty. I'd much rather live out in the black on a dinky yet adorable spaceship.

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Thursday, September 06, 2012 8:35 AM

I have to go with Independents, because it's not like Alliance just gives you schools and health care - they also run tests on people: River, Mirana (hole planet, lots of people without them knowing and look what happend!) Also in my opinion you can't just say ,,We make this land our land, here's our flag, now it's ours. No, no, we don't care that you live there. We're bigger and stronger than you. Yes, if you don't join us we'll kill you all, your choice"

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Thursday, September 06, 2012 9:20 AM

While the verse wouldn't know about the Academy and wouldn't know about Miranda, they would have known about Shadow. If the question is "if we were people living in the verse who knew what the average citizen knew, which side would we support," then that would depend on what our opinions about war in general are and whether we'd be likely to believe Shadow's destruction was an accident, a deliberate war atrocity, or justified to bring order.

I know what I'd think, because I already think it about similar situations. Whether or not everyone charge of the Alliance approved, some of their actions and the orders carried out would considered be unforgiveable, unspeakable, if perpetrated by a real nation here on earth.

Just wouldn't necessarily trust the motivations of the people in charge of the Independents, either.

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Thursday, September 06, 2012 10:22 AM

I'd still show my support with the Alliance regardless of Shadow for 2 reasons.

1. The Independents are known to have utilized brutal tactics against the Alliance. The Commander in Bushwhacked found it highly plausible that Mal and his crew killed everyone in the settler ship, butchered, and strung them up. Because as he said he hadn't "seen that kind of brutality... well since the war". Obviously holding the implication that the Independents did things like that.

2. We don't know exactly what happened on Shadow. I've sources that suggest a complete nuclear wipe out, but I've found even more that suggest it was a gradual 'planet poisoning'. Making it so the people there were forced to evacuate since it was going to be famine and no water for anyone. These also suggest the people were moved off.

I don't consider that second point an atrocity, since its just you're average 'scorched earth' tactic.

- Besides, it's based on the Civil War. - So I'm willing to bet the Independents were the ones that declared war and struck first.

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Thursday, September 06, 2012 11:45 AM

Quote:
Because as he said he hadn't "seen that kind of brutality... well since the war". Obviously holding the implication that the Independents did things like that.

You're missing some context there. The Commander not only denies Reavers exist, he even doesn't THINK they do. Reavers showed up about the time the war started (see the movie), and what the survivor did emulating Reavers, to himself, is compared to what the Commander thinks Independents did. The implication is that there was stuff the Reavers did that got blamed on Independents. The same actions by Reavers similarly probably got blamed by Independents propaganda spinners on the Alliance.

I don't doubt the Independents did some nasty stuff and committed their own war crimes, but you have to look between the lines a little more than that to get a full perspective on that scene.

And the Independents still didn't sterilize an entire planet (technically two, but Shadow was the only one people knew about), as far as we know.

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I don't consider that second point an atrocity, since its just you're average 'scorched earth' tactic.

Scorched earth tactics are considered an atrocity.

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The strategy of destroying the food supply of the civilian population in an area of conflict has been banned under Article 54 of Protocol I of the 1977 Geneva Conventions. The relevant passage says:

It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove, or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as foodstuffs, agricultural areas for the production of foodstuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies, and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth_tactics

Surprise surprise, the US never ratified that one. But that doesn't make it okay. Generally speaking, when you're talking about whether or not something is an atrocity, imagine it happening to you or people you care about, and evaluate how devastating it would be.

Quote:
War crimes are serious violations of the laws applicable in armed conflict (also known as international humanitarian law) giving rise to individual criminal responsibility. Examples of such conduct include "murder, the ill-treatment or deportation of civilian residents of an occupied territory to slave labor camps", "the murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war", the killing of prisoners, "the wanton destruction of cities, towns and villages, and any devastation not justified by military, or civilian necessity".

[....]

Some of the provisions, such as those in The Hague, the Geneva, and Genocide Conventions, are considered to be part of customary international law, and are binding on all. Others are only binding on individuals if the belligerent power to which they belong is a party to the treaty which introduced the constraint.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime

I'd also potentially consider it genocide against the people of Shadow, who notably have a different culture/sense of nationality than the people perpetrating the attack.

And while there was a slow poisoning, there was first a widescale scouring, a show of force. The manner of the initial scouring (nukes? chemical weapons? boiled the sea somehow) lead to the poisoning of the biosphere and the rapid transformation of Shadow into a blackrock. Many of the inhabitants of Shadow evacuated to a nearby moon, Summerfaire, but many also died on-world. Perhaps, excepting Miranda, Shadow was one of the biggest mass killings and exodus of civilians in the history of that verse. There really is no defending it.

All that is left there now is a corporate group that set up a terraforming station - it sustains just a large enough inhabitable bubble that a thousand workers or so can mine one of the richest mineral veins in the verse.

Blue Sun plays everyone hard.

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Thursday, September 06, 2012 12:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Because as he said he hadn't "seen that kind of brutality... well since the war". Obviously holding the implication that the Independents did things like that.

You're missing some context there. The Commander not only denies Reavers exist, he even doesn't THINK they do. Reavers showed up about the time the war started (see the movie), and what the survivor did emulating Reavers, to himself, is compared to what the Commander thinks Independents did. The implication is that there was stuff the Reavers did that got blamed on Independents. The same actions by Reavers similarly probably got blamed by Independents propaganda spinners on the Alliance.

I don't doubt the Independents did some nasty stuff and committed their own war crimes, but you have to look between the lines a little more than that to get a full perspective on that scene.

And the Independents still didn't sterilize an entire planet (technically two, but Shadow was the only one people knew about), as far as we know.

But the most commonly believed story in the verse is probably the Alliance's story. If the commander believes it then most likely the majority of the citizens do as well. So, if we're coming from their perspective we probably believe that the independents are brutal savages.

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Thursday, September 06, 2012 1:00 PM

Quote:
But the most commonly believed story in the verse is probably the Alliance's story. If the commander believes it then most likely the majority of the citizens do as well. So, if we're coming from their perspective we probably believe that the independents are brutal savages.

Still think it depends on personality. Say you woke up in the verse with no memory of current times and only verse memories, but your personality was intact. Some people are naturally just more paranoid and contrary than other people and that would hold true even if they were born in the core. So assuming that the core worlds are the most populated worlds and that you're statistically most likely to get stuck there and have that education and history background, even the core worlds will have their wild eyed conspiracy theorists.

My paranoia might be forceably treated in the core, but I still think I would have a certain unavoidable tendency towards contrariness since that's just part of my personality. On the other hand, there's also a good chance I'd be called in front of McCarthy-esque boards to evaluate my loyalty to the Alliance, so in this theoretical alternate universe, I might not even be alive anymore.

Basically anyone who has any tendencies that might set them up to question the Alliance should still theoretically have them if they were transferred to under Alliance rule and raised by them. Look at River: Alliance education, parents who are unintentionally or willfully blind, but her memories suggest she still questioned. It can't all be brainwash.

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Thursday, September 06, 2012 1:19 PM

The only downside of all of this is if you are naturally inclined for perceptiveness, you may eventually develop a constant and unshakeable itching in your cortex that SOMETHING IS AMISS and that you should be somewhere else.

Like those of us who started in the firefly verse and ended up here.

(/paranoia fuel lol)

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Thursday, September 06, 2012 4:59 PM

Well since Bytemite seems to think war, and by extension what happens in war, is never justified. I would ask this.

The South secedes, and drafts an army, and attacks U.S troops. - is war justified here when the entire stability of the nation is threatened?

Also, I think your 'analysis' of the Reaver context is wrong. Reason? They hadn't established when the Reavers were created till the movie. And Whedon frequently pointed out that the Alliance is not evil.

Besides, the Anglo-Sino Alliance built the galaxy. It was in control of everything during the Exodus, Londinium and Sihnon were the first colonized planets.

But I think the best example just goes with the basis of the show. It takes place in the equivalent of reconstruction. Times were hard then, but in the end it made the South more prosperous then ever before. The same thing will happen to the Independents.

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Thursday, September 06, 2012 5:02 PM

One more thing, your little piece from the wiki page for War Crimes..... describes war itself..... It's not about killing the fewest people, its not about winning hearts and minds. Its about destroying the enemy force by whatever means necessary.

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Thursday, September 06, 2012 7:21 PM

Quote:
is war justified here when the entire stability of the nation is threatened?

Hmm, a tricky question. How about...

NO

Fixing instability by diving head first into civil war is what we permanent migraine types call "defeating the whole friggin' purpose jeez guys come on."

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Reason? They hadn't established when the Reavers were created till the movie

Oh yes. Whedon never plans his myth arcs out ahead of time.

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And Whedon frequently pointed out that the Alliance is not evil.

He once described the Alliance as a Deconstruction of the Federation of Star Trek, and his other quote is that "The Alliance isn't some evil empire, but rather a largely benevolent bureaucratic force. The Alliance's main problem is that it seeks to govern everyone, regardless of whether they desire to belong to the central government or not. What the crew of Serenity represent—specifically Mal and his lifestyle—is the idea that people should have the right to make their own decisions, even if those decisions are bad."

Benevolence is defined as "a desire to help people." If the methods used to help people are wrongheaded, benevolence is not necessarily GOOD. In fact, it can CAUSE evil.

And frankly, if it looks like an evil empire and acts like an evil empire, if there's elements of authoritarianism and corporate corruption and military expansionism, then I'm sorry Joss, it's probably an evil empire. Whether or not people can look at an event like Shadow, or Alderaan, or dropping the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and can think "yes, this was an entirely reasonable action," whether it can be said that not every person involved in that government is evil, there are an equal number of people who are APPALLED by that attitude and think any such government that allows that is not fit to govern.

Perhaps Joss is making the distinction because he doesn't want to simplify reality to evil empires, but unfortunately reality itself is rather dark.

Quote:
One more thing, your little piece from the wiki page for War Crimes..... describes war itself..... It's not about killing the fewest people, its not about winning hearts and minds. Its about destroying the enemy force by whatever means necessary.

It's so cozy how comfortable you are with war and war crimes and how you consider them synonymous. Hey, you know what I heard? Fog of war hides everything, so go ahead and kill civilians indiscriminately, distinguishing between innocent non-combatants and enemy forces is just extra seconds between pulling the trigger, seconds in which they could kill you. The ends justify the means, and targeting families and rape and starvation damages enemy morale, so that makes it all okay, who gives a damn about those other people, they deserve what they get. And if they do it to your side? GIVE THOSE MONSTERS HELL.

They're all so obsessed with winning, I don't think they even fully realize what is victory and success. By any means necessary isn't EITHER. It's license to make the world a worse place than what you started with.

I know why I fight. Why do you?

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Thursday, September 06, 2012 8:06 PM

This is not the first time this MONTH even that I've heard this exact same argument. It is NOT pragmatic - the consequences are wider ranging than you know and it's not even the ethical standard the American military holds their own soldiers to, even if I do tend to think they're not strict enough.

Instead, this argument is just... WRONG. Like seriously WTF wrong.

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Friday, September 07, 2012 5:37 AM

Only in Iraq and Afghanistan have they pretended that war is just about securing a single objective and if there are any casualties its suddenly a war crime. Which, having friends and family tell me first hand of things that are happening, this idea of not killing innocents isn't happening.

There is no war in which the innocents suffer, and why? I believe Sherman put it best " War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it"

When you're state is threatened, it is your responsibility to fight for it. That's why the U.S fought the Germans, and it's why we fought the South, and the British.

Frequently people attackers aren't willing to just sort it out through talking. And you can't blame the defender who faces oblivion.

But the Alliance will in the end make life better for the people on the Rim. They're just a little less then willing to go all in at the moment since millions of their own died trying to secure that area.

(And no, Whedon has represented in all of his shows, from Buffy to Dollhouse - that he has no idea how to handle things, that's why they all wind up getting to big and convoluted that by the last piece of the story it doesn't make a lot of sense within the context of the rest of the series. And it's so big, and unbelievable that its just bad.)

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Friday, September 07, 2012 6:44 AM

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Only in Iraq and Afghanistan have they pretended that war is just about securing a single objective and if there are any casualties its suddenly a war crime. Which, having friends and family tell me first hand of things that are happening, this idea of not killing innocents isn't happening.

Tell me something I don't know. Our hypocrisy and brutality abroad and at home is well known. From the very moment European settlers arrived on this shore, they have been killing, and the native tribes, before we arrived, killed each other. But that does not make it RIGHT. You shrug and say it can't be helped, I say you're not even trying.

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When you're state is threatened, it is your responsibility to fight for it. That's why the U.S fought the Germans, and it's why we fought the South, and the British.

When my PERSON is threatened I fight, when the people I care about are threatened I fight for them, when atrocities are being done I will fight for the victims. My "STATE" is meaningless - an intangible concept composed of negotiated borders and invisible lines and trade agreements and laws imposed by aristocratic tyrants, the status quo. What is important is a mass of land, filled with people, a blue marble, floating in space. What you've forgotten with your sneering dismissal of decency and compassion is HUMANITY. And if you decide that you will fight for the STATE, and not for the PEOPLE, then you are part of the problem.

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And no, Whedon has represented in all of his shows, from Buffy to Dollhouse - that he has no idea how to handle things, that's why they all wind up getting to big and convoluted that by the last piece of the story it doesn't make a lot of sense within the context of the rest of the series. And it's so big, and unbelievable that its just bad

Epitaph One. The pieces change from their original conception, Boyd randomly becomes the main villain for the shock value, an explanation or two might change in the process, unintentional retcons. But the overall story arc, and the themes he wanted, directions and key points and revelations, in order to even write, have to be present from the beginning or you have a directionless contradictory mess. Joss planned a post-apocalypse setting to follow the technology he explored in Dollhouse, and we can see the evidence of it from before he even shot the first episode.

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According to his DVD commentary, Joss Whedon said the planet Miranda would've been discovered at the end of the second season if the show had been a success.

So no, it was planned all along.

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Friday, September 07, 2012 3:59 PM

YOUR DISTURBING MY CALM

INDEPENDENT. FREEDOM. ALLIANCE ARE BRAIN WASHED NAZI'S

DAVE

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Friday, September 07, 2012 11:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE: While the verse wouldn't know about the Academy and wouldn't know about Miranda, they would have known about Shadow b]

I think it's even worse that they didn't know, it only shows you tahat Alliance does whatever they want and they don't care about people living in the verse! And the core planets decided to take care of everyone - and a lot of people didn't like it so their plans must heve been really bad that so many people felt threatened. So many that there was long war. If Alliance wasn't so bad the opposition wouldn't have been so big and strong

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Saturday, September 08, 2012 1:16 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

The binary choice of either Alliance or Independents ignores Beaumonde, the home base for the twins, Mingo and Fanty. I take my side with Beaumonde, where the crew had to spent many weeks in a row. It's the longest time Mal and Zoe have been in one place since Serenity took off after they first bought her. What were they doing on Beaumonde for so long?

After crashing, Serenity was rebuilt on Beaumonde. (You didn't think that happened on Mr Universe's vacant Moon, did you?) Beaumonde has industry in the movie. It builds ships and its economy and history are similar to Finland, also a ship building nation. Trust me on that.

If you want to know which side Beaumonde fought during the Unification War then you need know about Finland's Winter War (1939–40), Continuation War (1941–44), and Lapland War (1944–45). Beaumonde ended its wars against Browncoats and Alliance in the same way as Finland against Soviets and Nazis. (Reminder: Soviets and Americans were on the same side.) The Browncoats wanted to control the shipyards on Beaumonde. Beaumonde objected to that and to the Alliance when it did the same, years later.

Sadly, Beaumonde soldiers killed, by proportion to planet population, was the third highest loss rate in the Unification War. Similar to Finland, Beaumonde also has the highest homicide rate on the Rim, which makes Mal, Zoe, and Jayne feel right at home.

In the years after the movie, they make Beaumonde their home base for Serenity, where they take her for maintenance. They know all the mechanics & engineers at the shipyard where Serenity was rebuilt. The shipyard owner has a thing for Inara, as she does for the owner. I can say no more about it other than it is lesbian, which makes for some intriguing tension with Mal. [Going meta: There has to be a comic book worthy reason for Inara to stay on Serenity after the movie and not go back to her girls school nor move into Mal's bunk, which is too fan-fic for Dark Horse comics.]

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Saturday, September 08, 2012 5:49 AM

The Serenity Novelization says they rebuilt on Persephone. Where did you hear Beaumonde was Finland?

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Saturday, September 08, 2012 6:20 AM

And Beaumonde is about as far into the Rim as you can possibly get. I find it hard to believe that the Independents would fight for dusty balls out on the border, but would leave their strongest point of industrial complex completely undefended. - RPG books say Persephone was an Independent World, in spite of being on the Core, so I'd bet Beaumonde drank the cool-aid too.

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Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:26 AM

I do seem to remember hearing Beaumonde was neutral and the Independents and the Alliance did have skirmishes over the industry. Maybe both sides just wanted to block the other side from using the industry there.

Your right that it IS pretty far out from the core, but it technically is considered a "border world" in the RPG manual. I've started to think that's more of a designation like 1st world, 2nd world, and 3rd world in regards to economic power and population than an actual location within the verse.

You're also right that Persephone was probably Independent (makes sense, considering the underworld's presence there, another reason to mistrust the Independents). It was also suggested in the Serenity Blu-Ray extras, though some of the Qmx stuff contradicts it.

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Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:38 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE: The Serenity Novelization says they rebuilt on Persephone. Where did you hear Beaumonde was Finland?

I noticed that all stories about the Unification War are simplifications. Tiny Finland can teach Joss Whedon what real war looks like. There can be three sides in a war, where the littlest country fights and wins on points scored against two biggest countries. Finland is still here and the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany are history. Beaumonde is going to outlast the Alliance and the ass-whipped Browncoats. You can trust me on that, based on how tough, smart, and plain mean Fanty and Mingo from Beaumonde are.

When Keith R.A. DeCandido wrote the Serenity novelization, J. Chris Bourdier had not yet written The Verse in Numbers, which shows where the planets are. When you look at the numbers, Persephone is not anywhere close to where Serenity crashed.

Serenity passed through Beaumonde during the movie and went on to Haven and Miranda and a hard landing on Mr Universe's doorstep. If you had an car crash in Japan, would you tow your car to Germany to repair it, even if it was a BMW? You'd go to the closest BMW dealership in Japan. Or maybe as far as Korea.

Taking a broken Serenity back to Beaumonde is a much shorter trip (meaning weeks of travel time) than going to a shipyard on Persephone, which orbits the brown dwarf star Lux that circles White Sun which is a long ways from Blue Sun that brown dwarf Burnham and its planet Miranda orbit.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Saturday, September 08, 2012 11:46 AM

Yes, but, the Serenity Novelization says that's what they did.

Actually, Persephone WOULD technically be closer if Beaumonde really is in the Red Sun system, and not Blue sun like the movie made it seem like.

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Saturday, September 08, 2012 12:19 PM

Beaumonde is the capital of the Kalidasa system. Its twice as far away from Miranda as Persephone is. The Verse in Numbers, the map of the verse, and the New Canaan guide all show it there. Miranda is in the blue sun, which is literally as far away from Kalidasa as you could possibly get.

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Saturday, September 08, 2012 2:16 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by Morse: Beaumonde is the capital of the Kalidasa system. Its twice as far away from Miranda as Persephone is. The Verse in Numbers, the map of the verse, and the New Canaan guide all show it there. Miranda is in the blue sun, which is literally as far away from Kalidasa as you could possibly get.

The movie had Serenity visit Beaumonde and Miranda, both orbit Blue Sun. The movie went nowhere near Persephone because Persephone is orbiting White Sun. There is a map showing Beaumonde orbiting the Blue Sun, the same sun as Miranda orbits www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=50808 The map makes sense. The novel . . . well, it was written fast. Do you think the novel overrides what was in the movie? The novelist had to fill in the blank with a planet's name and guessed Persephone. Too bad that wasn't right but DeCandido's error is not dogma.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Saturday, September 08, 2012 4:16 PM

Whoops, not sure why I thought it was in Red Sun. Anyway, Persephone is probably still closer to the Blue Sun system than Kalidasa. (Blue Sun and Georgia are kind of on one side of the verse, and Red Sun and Kalidasa are on the other).

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Saturday, September 08, 2012 4:18 PM

Quote:
The movie had Serenity visit Beaumonde and Miranda, both orbit Blue Sun.

That's your headcanon, two. You didn't like Beaumonde in Kalidasa because you thought it was too far to fly from Lilac (also in Blue Sun), then back to Haven and the Training House and Miranda. But Map of the verse and white pages have it in Kalidasa. We don't know if that was a mistake or not, but so far it hasn't been corrected.

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Saturday, September 08, 2012 4:25 PM

Why do you think it's an error? If Beaumonde isn't in Blue Sun and is in Kalidasa, as the Qmx map of the verse suggests, then there aren't really any good ship repair yards anywhere in the Blue Sun system. The closest system to Blue Sun is the Georgia System, and that doesn't really have any renowned shipyards either. Persephone is pretty much it in that case.

Also, Mr. Universe's moon isn't in Blue Sun, it's part of the Com Station Ring around white sun. Makes sense to take Serenity from where it crashed to Persephone.

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Saturday, September 08, 2012 8:27 PM

There are probably places to get a ship fixed up in every system, with the exception of Blue Sun since it's so new. But the Core is by far the closest system to the Blue Sun, and since the Operative was helping them out in a way that his superiors wouldn't like, Persephone would be the best place to do it, since it's got the capabilities, it's close, and it's a Core world that isn't the most Alliance friendly.

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Sunday, September 09, 2012 2:04 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE: That's your headcanon, two. You didn't like Beaumonde in Kalidasa because you thought it was too far to fly from Lilac (also in Blue Sun), then back to Haven and the Training House and Miranda. But Map of the verse and white pages have it in Kalidasa. We don't know if that was a mistake or not, but so far it hasn't been corrected.

The QMX Map of the Verse and the Verse in Numbers white paper represent the most painstakingly-researched and thoughtful effort to make sense of a bunch of hooey that I've encountered, and I am speaking as somewhat of an expert on hooey. Consider yourself warned. - Andy Gore of Quantum Mechanix Inc. wrote that in his introduction "Lies, Damn Lies & Canon" to the Verse in Numbers.

The movie has Serenity stop at both Beaumonde and Miranda. QMX map shows Beaumonde and Miranda at opposite ends of the Verse. What will you believe? The movie? Or the map and novelization? For True-believers, all are sacred and all contradictions are illusion.

Miranda and Beaumonde are far, far apart on the QMx map.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, September 09, 2012 5:24 AM

I'll believe QMX, since the movie already had some really serious problems when it came to it's 'time table'.

At one point Mal says that River and Simon have been on the ship for "8 Months", but that virtually impossible with the amount of time that they mention passing from episode to episode. It's closer to a year and half later.

Also, QMX took knowledge of physics, what we would know about space travel, the time that was passing during the show, and constructed the map based on that. - So I'd believe that.

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Sunday, September 09, 2012 6:54 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by Morse: I'll believe QMX, since the movie already had some really serious problems . . . Also, QMX took knowledge of physics, what we would know about space travel, the time that was passing during the show, and constructed the map based on that. - So I'd believe that.

So you're believing QMx before Joss? Joss' movie put Beaumonde in the wrong place and QMx's map has helped Joss by moving Beaumonde to the right place on the other side of the Verse from Miranda?

QMx's Andy Gore wrote, "So, what does that make The Map of the Verse? Canon? Extended Canon? Speculation? Here's how I like to think about it - it's as accurate as it's possible to be right now. Meaning to say, it's 100 percent accurate, until Joss says it isn't. It's Joss' Verse, after all." Read the quote by downloading The Verse in Numbers, Version 2.01 - July 2012 http://pics.fireflyprops.net/TVIN-2.01.pdf

Joss Whedon is too nice a guy to demand that Andy Gore declare a recall on QMx maps printed on paper. Maybe QMx could sell additional maps of the 'Verse by issuing version 2? It is a win-win for everybody! Until QMx issues version 2, there is a more accurate map than version 1 at www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=50808

What got this started in the first place is my speculation that Beaumonde during the Unification War could have a re-imagined Finnish history of WWII. I can imagine a realistic story of Finnish speaking twins Fanty and Mingo fighting on Beaumonde a Soviet Union style Alliance of the Central Planets. The Soviet Union collapsed. I'd like to see the same fate for the Alliance.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, September 09, 2012 7:23 AM

Since Joss hasn't countered, and the people that made the map actually did the work to make it, and actually know how much time passed in the show, I'll still go with them.

And I wouldn't call that map the most accurate, since I actually purchased the map that QMX holds to the most, and its got twice the detail and actually holds accurate positioning.

And Beaumonde is on the other side of Kalidasa. The Alliance would have to break through the entire line of planetary resistance in order to get there in the first place, and once they did they'd be cut off.

The Independent's had a Navy, which would likely have been a serious force against the Alliance, because if they didn't the U-War would have been over in about a month. So the Alliance's capacity for capturing Beaumonde is not very good, especially with armies threatening the Core closer to the Border.

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Sunday, September 09, 2012 7:42 PM

Umm...not to get picky here or anything...but don't *all* of these systems orbit White Sun? It's a dynamic system, and while the nice little map shows Kalidasa and Beaumonde on the opposite side of White Sun from the Blue Sun System and Miranda, they're not permanently glued in those positions. They are all orbiting, and why wouldn't Kalidasa sometimes be closer to the Blue Sun system than the map depicts? Same for the "Border" worlds -- all they have to do is continue in their orbits, and at some point in their orbits they'll be farther from the Core than the so-called "Rim" worlds, whose orbits will, at some point, bring them closer to the Core. The only thing that stays closer to the Core all the time are the planets that actually orbit around White Sun itself. The planets that orbit the others -- Blue Sun, Kalidasa, Red Sun, and Georgia -- will be nearer or farther from the Core, depending on where in their orbital path they are. Why not simply posit that the events of the movie occurred at such a time as the named planets and systems were in positions such that the amount of travel time depicted in the movie was at least (sort of) possible? Sometimes Persephone is closer to Miranda than at other times. Also, although the nice little map is flat, that's no reason to assume that all the systems in the 'Verse orbit in the same plane. Think 3-D, please.

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Monday, September 10, 2012 4:10 AM

The orbits of the systems are extremely slow. To the point where there's no point in calculating the change in them would be planning for the changes in the road fifty, maybe even a hundred years down the road. Since Firefly generally refers to the years between 2506 and 2518 the systems haven't a noticeable amount.

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Monday, September 10, 2012 4:49 AM

Well... Yeah. Except, depending on which resource you're using, it can take a week to 30 days to fly between two adjacent systems, and two weeks or up to a year to fly to one of the systems on the far side.

(Shorter time frame numbers pulled from analysis of episodes, longer numbers suggested by QmX atlas of the verse)

So it does make some sense to go looking for nearby ports in order to get repairs.

Beaumonde may be one of the outer planets of its solar system, and if so may sometimes be closer to the core, I'd have to check. I know that Hera and Shadow are and Persephone of course obviously is. But I think I've noticed some worlds that are listed as border worlds in the RPG manual being put close to their Sun on the maps and the verse in numbers. So I still think that "border world" may be more of an economic designation.

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Monday, September 10, 2012 6:15 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by ebfiddler: Umm...not to get picky here or anything...but don't *all* of these systems orbit White Sun? It's a dynamic system, and while the nice little map shows Kalidasa and Beaumonde on the opposite side of White Sun from the Blue Sun System and Miranda, they're not permanently glued in those positions.

The planets are damn near glued, assuming you trust the numbers. Everything moves slow in the 'Verse. For example, the planet Beaumonde takes 46 years to go a single orbit around the star Kalidasa and Kalidasa takes 1331 years for a single orbit of White Star. That 1331 years comes from page 5.01 (chapter 5, page 1) of the Verse in Numbers http://pics.fireflyprops.net/TVIN-2.01.pdf

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, September 10, 2012 7:36 AM

You know... That's actually one of the places where I think QmX flubbed the science. Angular velocity of an object in orbit is related to the distance of orbit from the system's center of gravity.

The only thing I can think of to explain this proposal they've made is if they're using massive amount of grav or anti-grav generators on every world to modify the orbits.

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Monday, September 10, 2012 7:42 AM

Quote:
Everything moves slow in the 'Verse. For example, the planet Beaumonde takes 46 years to go a single orbit around the star Kalidasa

Ah, but when did they terraform it? Maybe it was a border planet by location at the time of terraforming.

Though I'm just fine with using it as an economic designation still. Presumably planets that were border planets when first terraformed would have better access to technology and immigration in crucial early years, might explain why they have more robust economies when they're no longer actually on the border.

Or, if it never had anything to do with location, the economic designation still works no matter what.

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Monday, September 10, 2012 8:56 AM

I tend to go with the QMX definition of Core-Rim. White Sun is Core, Georgia and Red Sun are Border, and Rim is Kalidasa and Blue sun. It works for their proximity, and their teraforming date.

The reason I can't say that Core-border-rim is an economic designation, is I'm sure that Beaumonde's industrial capacity matches that of many core worlds, as well as its economy. And also Miranda was the farthest planet out in the rim, and it looked like what you'd expect of any core world. But its a rim world out in Blue Sun.

Its a good thought, not one I've ever had, but I think it works mainly on proximity.

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